Becaue of lower back pain, I need an MRI. I've done maybe 3 or 4
hours total of metal grinding in the last 30 years, and worn safety
glasses during most of it. Also, because of the direction the grind
stone spns, metal round off and stone that comes off t he grindstone
heads down towards my feet, not up to my face. The housing around
both of my grinders keeps other metal and stone dust from heading up
or towards me.

There are two chains of imaging clinics here and when I told one that
I had spent about 3 hours of the last 30 years grinding, they said,
"Don't worry about it. The restrictions** are for people who do it for
work, day in and day out."

For unrelated reasons I had to call the second chain and the second
one said, "Any grinding presents a risk. You need to have an orbital
X-ray, to check for metal in your eyes, before we can do the MRI.
And you need a prescription from your doctor before we can give the
orbital xray. We won't do the MRI otherwise."

So now I'm trying to decide if there is any risk in my backbround. I
used goggles most of the time, but not every time I repaired a
screwdriver. Because a bench grinder blows the stone and metal
particles down. Below my hands. The housing keeps stuff from
blowing up at my eyes.

Still on ohter occasions I've gotten wood in my eyes so maybe I've
gotten metal too. I've sawed some metal with a band saw, but that
discharges down also. I've used a hack saw quite a few times, but
grvidty makes the metal fall down, unless I was under the saw. If so,
I'm almost certailn I wore goggles. or at least safety glasses. (the
prohibition includes metal working also.)


The office manager said that if I had metal in my eye, as soon as I
entered the MRI room, I would feel it being pulled towards the magnet,
which is not an electro-magnet and is always "ON". That paper clips
can be pulled out of one's hands even when you are 3 feet away.

I was actually in the bed and for 3 seconds my head was in the
doughnut (the magnet or very neer the aagnet and had noticed nothing.
(Of course this was the original bore MRI and my nose was only an inch
from t he top and that's what I was concentrating on, once I noticed
it.

Do I need the x-ray of my eyes?



As an aside.told this story to my 75-year old friend, who used to own
a small
factory, and his father before him, and he remembered 50 years ago
getting some metal in his eye(maybe from something another employee
was doing) and having to go to the Wilmer Eye Clinic, which is still
here and well-known, and they had some special machine to take the
filing out of his eye.

On Feb 14, 6:56*am, micky wrote:
Becaue of lower back pain, I need an MRI. * I've done maybe 3 or 4
hours total of metal grinding in the last 30 years, and worn safety
glasses during most of it. * Also, because of the direction the grind
stone spns, metal round off and stone that comes off t he grindstone
heads down towards my feet, not up to my face. * The housing around
both of my grinders keeps other metal and stone dust from heading up
or towards me.

There are two chains of imaging clinics here and when I told one that
I had spent about 3 hours of the last 30 years grinding, they said,
"Don't worry about it. The restrictions** are for people who do it for
work, day in and day out."

For unrelated reasons I had to call the second chain and the second
one said, "Any grinding presents a risk. *You need to have an orbital
X-ray, to check for metal in your eyes, *before we can do the MRI.
And you need a prescription from your doctor before we can give the
orbital xray. * We won't do the MRI otherwise."

So now I'm trying to decide if there is any risk in my backbround. * I
used goggles most of the time, but not every time I repaired a
screwdriver. *Because a bench grinder blows the stone and metal
particles down. *Below my hands. * The housing keeps stuff from
blowing up at my eyes.

Still on ohter occasions I've gotten wood in my eyes so maybe I've
gotten metal too. * *I've sawed some metal with a band saw, but that
discharges down also. * I've used a hack saw quite a few times, but
grvidty makes the metal fall down, unless I was under the saw. *If so,
I'm almost certailn I wore goggles. or at least safety glasses. * (the
prohibition includes metal working also.)

The office manager said that if I had metal in my eye, as soon as I
entered the MRI room, I would feel it being pulled towards the magnet,
which is not an electro-magnet and is always "ON". * That paper clips
can be pulled out of one's hands even when you are 3 feet away.

I was actually in the bed and for 3 seconds my head was in the
doughnut (the magnet or very neer the aagnet and had noticed nothing.
(Of course this was the original bore MRI and my nose was only an inch
from t he top and that's what I was concentrating on, once I noticed
it.

Do I need the x-ray of my eyes?

As an aside.told this story to my 75-year old friend, who used to own
a small
factory, and his father before him, and he remembered 50 years ago
getting some metal in his eye(maybe from something another employee
was doing) *and having to go to the Wilmer Eye Clinic, which is still
here and well-known, and they had some special machine to take the
filing out of his eye.

The issue with metals/iron is that the strong magnetic field
associated with MRI scans could cause any iron/steell particles to
move about in your eye and cause damage.
Whether you actually have any metal in your eye, I dunno.

If you have any steel objects in you pockets and you go near these
machines while they are working you can feel them move/tremble.

On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 01:56:55 -0500, micky
wrote:


Becaue of lower back pain, I need an MRI. I've done maybe 3 or 4
hours total of metal grinding in the last 30 years, and worn safety
glasses during most of it. Also, because of the direction the grind
stone spns, metal round off and stone that comes off t he grindstone
heads down towards my feet, not up to my face. The housing around
both of my grinders keeps other metal and stone dust from heading up
or towards me.

There are two chains of imaging clinics here and when I told one that
I had spent about 3 hours of the last 30 years grinding, they said,
"Don't worry about it. The restrictions** are for people who do it for
work, day in and day out."

For unrelated reasons I had to call the second chain and the second
one said, "Any grinding presents a risk. You need to have an orbital
X-ray, to check for metal in your eyes, before we can do the MRI.
And you need a prescription from your doctor before we can give the
orbital xray. We won't do the MRI otherwise."

So now I'm trying to decide if there is any risk in my backbround. I
used goggles most of the time, but not every time I repaired a
screwdriver. Because a bench grinder blows the stone and metal
particles down. Below my hands. The housing keeps stuff from
blowing up at my eyes.

Still on ohter occasions I've gotten wood in my eyes so maybe I've
gotten metal too. I've sawed some metal with a band saw, but that
discharges down also. I've used a hack saw quite a few times, but
grvidty makes the metal fall down, unless I was under the saw. If so,
I'm almost certailn I wore goggles. or at least safety glasses. (the
prohibition includes metal working also.)


The office manager said that if I had metal in my eye, as soon as I
entered the MRI room, I would feel it being pulled towards the magnet,
which is not an electro-magnet and is always "ON". That paper clips
can be pulled out of one's hands even when you are 3 feet away.

I was actually in the bed and for 3 seconds my head was in the
doughnut (the magnet or very neer the aagnet and had noticed nothing.
(Of course this was the original bore MRI and my nose was only an inch
from t he top and that's what I was concentrating on, once I noticed
it.

Do I need the x-ray of my eyes?



As an aside.told this story to my 75-year old friend, who used to own
a small
factory, and his father before him, and he remembered 50 years ago
getting some metal in his eye(maybe from something another employee
was doing) and having to go to the Wilmer Eye Clinic, which is still
here and well-known, and they had some special machine to take the
filing out of his eye.


If it were me, I would not chance a MRI if you think it "could" damage
your eyes. I would "first" go to an eye "doctor"
(opthamologist..sp??). They can examine the eyes closely and tell
you. As a side note, my dad used to work in construction and once got
some metal in his eye. Fortunately we lived next door to an eye
doctor who took him in one evening and examined and cleaned his eye
out. He didn't need any patch and was fine, moments later.

On Feb 14, 4:10*am, harry wrote:
On Feb 14, 6:56*am, micky wrote:





Becaue of lower back pain, I need an MRI. * I've done maybe 3 or 4
hours total of metal grinding in the last 30 years, and worn safety
glasses during most of it. * Also, because of the direction the grind
stone spns, metal round off and stone that comes off t he grindstone
heads down towards my feet, not up to my face. * The housing around
both of my grinders keeps other metal and stone dust from heading up
or towards me.

There are two chains of imaging clinics here and when I told one that
I had spent about 3 hours of the last 30 years grinding, they said,
"Don't worry about it. The restrictions** are for people who do it for
work, day in and day out."

For unrelated reasons I had to call the second chain and the second
one said, "Any grinding presents a risk. *You need to have an orbital
X-ray, to check for metal in your eyes, *before we can do the MRI.
And you need a prescription from your doctor before we can give the
orbital xray. * We won't do the MRI otherwise."

So now I'm trying to decide if there is any risk in my backbround. * I
used goggles most of the time, but not every time I repaired a
screwdriver. *Because a bench grinder blows the stone and metal
particles down. *Below my hands. * The housing keeps stuff from
blowing up at my eyes.

Still on ohter occasions I've gotten wood in my eyes so maybe I've
gotten metal too. * *I've sawed some metal with a band saw, but that
discharges down also. * I've used a hack saw quite a few times, but
grvidty makes the metal fall down, unless I was under the saw. *If so,
I'm almost certailn I wore goggles. or at least safety glasses. * (the
prohibition includes metal working also.)

The office manager said that if I had metal in my eye, as soon as I
entered the MRI room, I would feel it being pulled towards the magnet,
which is not an electro-magnet and is always "ON". * That paper clips
can be pulled out of one's hands even when you are 3 feet away.

I was actually in the bed and for 3 seconds my head was in the
doughnut (the magnet or very neer the aagnet and had noticed nothing.
(Of course this was the original bore MRI and my nose was only an inch
from t he top and that's what I was concentrating on, once I noticed
it.

Do I need the x-ray of my eyes?

As an aside.told this story to my 75-year old friend, who used to own
a small
factory, and his father before him, and he remembered 50 years ago
getting some metal in his eye(maybe from something another employee
was doing) *and having to go to the Wilmer Eye Clinic, which is still
here and well-known, and they had some special machine to take the
filing out of his eye.

The issue with metals/iron is that the strong magnetic field
associated with MRI scans could cause any iron/steell particles to
move about in your eye and cause damage.

No **** Sherlock. It's obvious from micky's post that
he understands that.

On Feb 14, 1:56*am, micky wrote:
Becaue of lower back pain, I need an MRI. * I've done maybe 3 or 4
hours total of metal grinding in the last 30 years, and worn safety
glasses during most of it. * Also, because of the direction the grind
stone spns, metal round off and stone that comes off t he grindstone
heads down towards my feet, not up to my face. * The housing around
both of my grinders keeps other metal and stone dust from heading up
or towards me.

There are two chains of imaging clinics here and when I told one that
I had spent about 3 hours of the last 30 years grinding, they said,
"Don't worry about it. The restrictions** are for people who do it for
work, day in and day out."

That has to be one of the dumbest things. Sure the
amount of exposure is going to be a factor in how likely
you are to have gotten something from grinding into your
eye. But given the apparent potential for damage, which
I assume could be loss of vision, I don't see how they can
say the concern only applies for people who do it every
day.

One would think that the more relevant question would be
whether you had an eye injury from any work around metal.
You would think that it's impossible to have a metal shard
in your eye without realizing something went in and experiencing
significant discomfort that would send you
to the eye doctor. I've had things taken out of my eye
twice. Both were so tiny you could not see them, but boy
were they painful. So, I find it hard to believe you could
have something in there without ever knowing you had
an event. But then who knows.....

I did find this from a place that does MRI's and it sounds
consistent with what I would think:

http://www.iowaortho.com/mri.shtml

"In addition to the above items, patients who may have previous metal
in the eyes should be extremely cautious. Please let your doctor and
technician know if you have ever had any metal chips or fragments in
your eyes from welding, grinding, or any accidents of any sort. In
these cases, an x-ray of the eye, called an orbital x-ray, must be
taken prior to the MRI procedure. Even if the metal.fragment was taken
out, or came out on its own, or if the eye issue occurred a long time
ago, an x-ray is the only safe way to confirm that there are no
remaining fragments that might impact the procedure. This is
particularly important, because small fragments in the eye could
potentially damage the eyes if brought into the magnetic field."


Here is another one that directly answers your question,
at least from this MRI provider's point of view:

http://www.newmri.com/html/mr_safety.asp

Previous Metal in the Eyes - If you have EVER had any metal chips or
fragments in your eyes from welding, grinding, or any accidents of any
sort, an eye x-ray must be taken prior to the study. Even if the metal
fragment was taken out, or came out on its own, or if it occurred a
long time ago, an x-ray is the only way to confirm that there are no
fragments remaining. This is important because if there are any small
fragments in the eye, it could potentially damage the eyes. We will
arrange these orbital x-rays prior to your scan. If you have done
welding or grinding but never got metal in your eyes, you do not need
the eye x-ray. If there is ever any question about this, the x-rays
should be taken.






For unrelated reasons I had to call the second chain and the second
one said, "Any grinding presents a risk. *You need to have an orbital
X-ray, to check for metal in your eyes, *before we can do the MRI.
And you need a prescription from your doctor before we can give the
orbital xray. * We won't do the MRI otherwise."

It sounds like they are erring on the side of safety. I think
you also have to understand that all patients are not like
you or I. There are language barriers, memory issues, etc.
A metal fragment going into your eye would almost certainly
send you to the eye doctor. For someone else, who knows
for sure.....

On 2/14/2013 8:25 AM, Doug wrote:


If it were me, I would not chance a MRI if you think it "could"
damage your eyes. I would "first" go to an eye "doctor"
(opthamologist..sp??). They can examine the eyes closely and tell
you. As a side note, my dad used to work in construction and once
got some metal in his eye. Fortunately we lived next door to an eye
doctor who took him in one evening and examined and cleaned his eye
out. He didn't need any patch and was fine, moments later.


The eye doctor might not be able to tell without a high resolution x-ray
(already recommended to the OP). If the metal is lodged in a layer of
the white of the eye (the sclera) that is below the surface of the
sclera, but has not fully punctured into the clear part of the interior
of the eye, it may be invisible to examination with routine office
equipment. In fact, even if a foreign body is partially penetrating
into the clear part of the eye but is embedded fairly close to the edge
of the iris, that part of interior of the eye cannot be visualized -
there's no way to put a mirror in there and see around a corner. I
agree that if you need the MRI, and your history puts you at risk for
having metallic foreign bodies embedded in your eyes, do what is needed
to ensure that the MRI does not have the potential to damage or even
destroy your vision.

micky wrote in
:

[big snip]
Do I need the x-ray of my eyes?

Why are you asking for medical advice in a home-repair group on Usenet? How in hell should
we know? Ask your doctor.

"harry" wrote in message
...
On Feb 14, 6:56 am, micky wrote:
Becaue of lower back pain, I need an MRI. I've done maybe 3 or 4
hours total of metal grinding in the last 30 years, and worn safety
glasses during most of it. Also, because of the direction the grind
stone spns, metal round off and stone that comes off t he grindstone
heads down towards my feet, not up to my face. The housing around
both of my grinders keeps other metal and stone dust from heading up
or towards me.

There are two chains of imaging clinics here and when I told one that
I had spent about 3 hours of the last 30 years grinding, they said,
"Don't worry about it. The restrictions** are for people who do it for
work, day in and day out."

For unrelated reasons I had to call the second chain and the second
one said, "Any grinding presents a risk. You need to have an orbital
X-ray, to check for metal in your eyes, before we can do the MRI.
And you need a prescription from your doctor before we can give the
orbital xray. We won't do the MRI otherwise."

So now I'm trying to decide if there is any risk in my backbround. I
used goggles most of the time, but not every time I repaired a
screwdriver. Because a bench grinder blows the stone and metal
particles down. Below my hands. The housing keeps stuff from
blowing up at my eyes.

Still on ohter occasions I've gotten wood in my eyes so maybe I've
gotten metal too. I've sawed some metal with a band saw, but that
discharges down also. I've used a hack saw quite a few times, but
grvidty makes the metal fall down, unless I was under the saw. If so,
I'm almost certailn I wore goggles. or at least safety glasses. (the
prohibition includes metal working also.)

The office manager said that if I had metal in my eye, as soon as I
entered the MRI room, I would feel it being pulled towards the magnet,
which is not an electro-magnet and is always "ON". That paper clips
can be pulled out of one's hands even when you are 3 feet away.

I was actually in the bed and for 3 seconds my head was in the
doughnut (the magnet or very neer the aagnet and had noticed nothing.
(Of course this was the original bore MRI and my nose was only an inch
from t he top and that's what I was concentrating on, once I noticed
it.

Do I need the x-ray of my eyes?

As an aside.told this story to my 75-year old friend, who used to own
a small
factory, and his father before him, and he remembered 50 years ago
getting some metal in his eye(maybe from something another employee
was doing) and having to go to the Wilmer Eye Clinic, which is still
here and well-known, and they had some special machine to take the
filing out of his eye.

The issue with metals/iron is that the strong magnetic field
associated with MRI scans could cause any iron/steell particles to
move about in your eye and cause damage.
Whether you actually have any metal in your eye, I dunno.

If you have any steel objects in you pockets and you go near these
machines while they are working you can feel them move/tremble.

One thing no one has mentioned, is the metal particle can heat up under the
RF pulses, and this can cause pain or damage to the area around it. Even
metal based pigments in tattoos and makeup apparently can be a source of
problems.

On 02/14/2013 06:38 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
micky wrote in
:

[big snip]
Do I need the x-ray of my eyes?

Why are you asking for medical advice in a home-repair group on Usenet? How in hell should
we know? Ask your doctor.

Well at the very least it is an interesting topic, one which perhaps
some here have not considered. I know about the risk, and would not
hesitate getting thoroughly "checked out" prior to having an MRI done.

So, to answer OP, I personally would get the orbital x-ray done, just to
be on the safe side.

Dr. Jon

On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 09:30:46 -0800, Jon Danniken
wrote:

On 02/14/2013 06:38 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
micky wrote in
:

[big snip]
Do I need the x-ray of my eyes?

Why are you asking for medical advice in a home-repair group on Usenet? How in hell should
we know? Ask your doctor.

Well at the very least it is an interesting topic, one which perhaps
some here have not considered. I know about the risk, and would not
hesitate getting thoroughly "checked out" prior to having an MRI done.

So, to answer OP, I personally would get the orbital x-ray done, just to
be on the safe side.

Dr. Jon

I'd go to the eye doctor and let him/her decide.

On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 09:18:22 -0500, Peter wrote:

On 2/14/2013 8:25 AM, Doug wrote:


If it were me, I would not chance a MRI if you think it "could"
damage your eyes. I would "first" go to an eye "doctor"
(opthamologist..sp??). They can examine the eyes closely and tell
you. As a side note, my dad used to work in construction and once
got some metal in his eye. Fortunately we lived next door to an eye
doctor who took him in one evening and examined and cleaned his eye
out. He didn't need any patch and was fine, moments later.


The eye doctor might not be able to tell without a high resolution x-ray
(already recommended to the OP). If the metal is lodged in a layer of
the white of the eye (the sclera) that is below the surface of the
sclera, but has not fully punctured into the clear part of the interior
of the eye, it may be invisible to examination with routine office
equipment. In fact, even if a foreign body is partially penetrating
into the clear part of the eye but is embedded fairly close to the edge
of the iris, that part of interior of the eye cannot be visualized -
there's no way to put a mirror in there and see around a corner. I
agree that if you need the MRI, and your history puts you at risk for
having metallic foreign bodies embedded in your eyes, do what is needed
to ensure that the MRI does not have the potential to damage or even
destroy your vision.


Well okay. Bottom line is go to the eye doctor and let him/her decide
what's best before going any where else.

On Thursday, February 14, 2013 1:08:53 PM UTC-5, Doug wrote:
On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 09:18:22 -0500, Peter wrote: On 2/14/2013 8:25 AM, Doug wrote: If it were me, I would not chance a MRI if you think it "could" damage your eyes. I would "first" go to an eye "doctor" (opthamologist..sp??). They can examine the eyes closely and tell you. As a side note, my dad used to work in construction and once got some metal in his eye. Fortunately we lived next door to an eye doctor who took him in one evening and examined and cleaned his eye out. He didn't need any patch and was fine, moments later. The eye doctor might not be able to tell without a high resolution x-ray (already recommended to the OP). If the metal is lodged in a layer of the white of the eye (the sclera) that is below the surface of the sclera, but has not fully punctured into the clear part of the interior of the eye, it may be invisible to examination with routine office equipment. In fact, even if a foreign body is partially penetrating into the clear part of the eye but is embedded fairly close to the edge of the iris, that part of interior of the eye cannot be visualized - there's no way to put a mirror in there and see around a corner. I agree that if you need the MRI, and your history puts you at risk for having metallic foreign bodies embedded in your eyes, do what is needed to ensure that the MRI does not have the potential to damage or even destroy your vision. Well okay. Bottom line is go to the eye doctor and let him/her decide what's best before going any where else.

The first mri I had they did a head xray first. They asked about it and I said I used to work in the automotive industry. So they said we'll shoot a quick head xray first. They did that and then 20 minutes or so later I was cleared and getting my mri. What kind of place is equiped to do an mri but not a regular xray?

On 02/14/2013 10:07 AM, Doug wrote:
On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 09:30:46 -0800, Jon Danniken
wrote:

On 02/14/2013 06:38 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
micky wrote in
:

[big snip]
Do I need the x-ray of my eyes?

Why are you asking for medical advice in a home-repair group on Usenet? How in hell should
we know? Ask your doctor.

Well at the very least it is an interesting topic, one which perhaps
some here have not considered. I know about the risk, and would not
hesitate getting thoroughly "checked out" prior to having an MRI done.

So, to answer OP, I personally would get the orbital x-ray done, just to
be on the safe side.

Dr. Jon

I'd go to the eye doctor and let him/her decide.

And what if the eye doctor says not to get the orbital x-ray and not to
worry about it, are you going to trust that person to make that decision
for you? I sure as hell wouldn't.

Jon

On 2/14/2013 9:38 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
micky wrote in
:

[big snip]
Do I need the x-ray of my eyes?

Why are you asking for medical advice in a home-repair group on Usenet? How in hell should
we know? Ask your doctor.


You clearly didn't get the memo. All groups except this one have been
deactivated since it really doesn't make sense to categorize things. I
believe the renaming of this group to "alt" will happen later this month.

On Thursday, February 14, 2013 10:23:17 AM UTC-5, EXT wrote:
One thing no one has mentioned, is the metal particle can heat up under the
RF pulses, and this can cause pain or damage to the area around it. Even
metal based pigments in tattoos and makeup apparently can be a source of
problems.

Mythbusters proved the tattoo thing was bull**** about 10 years ago. They had a chick on the show that was covered in tattoos. MRI'd the **** out of her, and nothing...

They tattooed a chunk of dead pig with metal-based ink with extra metal mixed in. MRI'd the **** out of that too, and nothing...

That was one of their early shows where they were actually trying to be scientific. Before they just blew **** up all the time.

On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 11:44:29 -0800, Jon Danniken
wrote:

On 02/14/2013 10:07 AM, Doug wrote:
On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 09:30:46 -0800, Jon Danniken
wrote:

On 02/14/2013 06:38 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
micky wrote in
:

[big snip]
Do I need the x-ray of my eyes?

Why are you asking for medical advice in a home-repair group on Usenet? How in hell should
we know? Ask your doctor.

It's complicated. Yours is not a bad answer, but it brings up a lot
of thoughs that relate to this. If I went to the EYE doctor, he'd
probably tell me to go back to the Imaging lab and get an X-ray. And
if he said do nothing, see below**. So why waste his time and mine
when I can just call the orthopedist and he'll fax a prescription for
the orbital x-ray to the imaging center.

And while it's often the case that it's silly to ask medical
questions on a home repair group, or home repair on a legal group,
etc. I'd give 90 to 1 odds that there is no metal in my eyes. You
guys work with grinders a lot more than my othopedist and I figured
you'd come up with a way I could have metal and not have noticed.

For example, when I was 6 and a cocker spaniel was following me, I
walked to another cocker spaniel I knew, so they could get to know
each other. The first one ignored the other and jumped all over me.
I couldn't tell if it was gratitude or anger. My mother couldn't
tell if the wounds on my back were claw scratches or if there was a
bite too, so she took me not to a doctor, but to a vet, who she
figured had more experience looking at dog bite wounds. (He said
there were no bites.)


Well at the very least it is an interesting topic, one which perhaps

Yes, as Trader sort of said, it's just amazing that two clinics could
have such different attitudes towards this. The first one that said
not to worry has 12 offices in Baltimore and adjacent counties. The
second one has 26 offices. Each of these 38 places has at least one
M.D. radiologist on duty.l. And both chains have many more offices
nationwide. Yet they have very different standards on this. (It was
the one with the strict standard that, when I asked, said I could feel
the metal thing in my eye move the moment I stepped into the room.
The machine doesn't have to be ON, becaue the magnet is always
magnetic. 1.5 teslas strong. .

Now I didn't feel anything, but that could be because I went straight
from the door to the machine, had other th ings on my mind, and only
lasted 3 seconds in t he machine before I panicked. If I had gone
into the room more slowly and waited maybe I would have felt it. But
what I think is the case is that there is no metal and nothing to
feel.

OTOH, if I get this orbital x-ray once, and I keep a better record in
my head of my grinding habits, I'll only need the one x-ray for the
rest of my life. (BTW, I'm also slightly claustrophobic and just got
off the phone with one of the 4 places, out of 38, that have wide bore
but closed MRI. (Open MRI that they advertise so much doesn't have
nearly the picture quality a spine doctor needs. It's adequate I'm
sure for some other puproses. X-rays and maybe CT and PET scans don't
show soft tissue. MRI's do, but they take 30, in my case, to 120
minutes and the machne clangs the whole time, just to make it worse.
They do have earphones and music and in this case FM radio stations
you can listen to.with earphones.

So they tell you to get a prescription for valium or something if you
have claustrophobia and to have someone pick you up and take you home.
My usual people are busy next week. I've never had a valium and have
no idea how tranquil it will make me for how long. In the opposite
direction, I can drink caffeinated coffee and go right to sleep


some here have not considered. I know about the risk, and would not
hesitate getting thoroughly "checked out" prior to having an MRI done.

That's what I'll do.

So, to answer OP, I personally would get the orbital x-ray done, just to
be on the safe side.

Dr. Jon

I'd go to the eye doctor and let him/her decide.

And what if the eye doctor says not to get the orbital x-ray and not to
worry about it, are you going to trust that person to make that decision
for you? I sure as hell wouldn't.

**Exactly. I have had so many examples of malpractice on me , I feel
the need to do my own research.

Fainted and hit the floor when I stood up, in front of my mother.
FAmily doctor decided I had epilepsy and gave me a pill for that.
Mother insisted on specialist neurologist, adn he put me on a second
pill in addition, also for epilepsy. When my mother asked if it was
habit forming, he said "What do you think we are doing here, Mrs.
Bigfoot, running an opium den?" She insisted on another speicallist,
this time it was a neurosurgeon. He watched my EEG and took me off
all the drugs. It turns out all I have is orthostatic hypotension,
which 1/4 to a 1/3 of all Americans have to some degree or other.

Dislocated my shoulder at college, went home the next day and saw the
family doctor the day after that. He should have immobilized my arm
and maybe I wouldn't have had 15 more dislocations and needed surgery.

Went to a clinic for a pain in my side. Doctor says I need
appendectomy that day. Friend gets me appt. at one of the fancy
hospitals on York Avenue in NYC. He said I just had a bruise. I was
15 pounds overweight and had the slightest bulge at my waist but it
was enough to hide the bruise from me. I should have used a mirror.

There are a couple I keep foregtting, plus stories my friends have
told me.

Jon

Thanks and thanks all.

On 02/14/2013 01:58 PM, micky wrote:
On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 11:44:29 -0800, Jon Danniken

[snip multiple lines of text, most of which were attributed to me were
not written by me]

You need to check your attribution a little more carefully, mickey.

Jon

On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 11:44:29 -0800, Jon Danniken
wrote:

On 02/14/2013 10:07 AM, Doug wrote:
On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 09:30:46 -0800, Jon Danniken
wrote:

On 02/14/2013 06:38 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
micky wrote in
:

[big snip]
Do I need the x-ray of my eyes?

Why are you asking for medical advice in a home-repair group on Usenet? How in hell should
we know? Ask your doctor.

Well at the very least it is an interesting topic, one which perhaps
some here have not considered. I know about the risk, and would not
hesitate getting thoroughly "checked out" prior to having an MRI done.

So, to answer OP, I personally would get the orbital x-ray done, just to
be on the safe side.

Dr. Jon

I'd go to the eye doctor and let him/her decide.

And what if the eye doctor says not to get the orbital x-ray and not to
worry about it, are you going to trust that person to make that decision
for you? I sure as hell wouldn't.

Jon





Doctors generally don't talk about stuff outside their expertise.
Bottom line tho is if it has to do with my eyes, yes I'll obey,
otherwise I'll seek other expertise.

On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 16:58:32 -0500, micky
wrote:

On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 11:44:29 -0800, Jon Danniken
wrote:

On 02/14/2013 10:07 AM, Doug wrote:
On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 09:30:46 -0800, Jon Danniken
wrote:

On 02/14/2013 06:38 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
micky wrote in
:

[big snip]
Do I need the x-ray of my eyes?

Why are you asking for medical advice in a home-repair group on Usenet? How in hell should
we know? Ask your doctor.

It's complicated. Yours is not a bad answer, but it brings up a lot
of thoughs that relate to this. If I went to the EYE doctor, he'd
probably tell me to go back to the Imaging lab and get an X-ray. And
if he said do nothing, see below**. So why waste his time and mine
when I can just call the orthopedist and he'll fax a prescription for
the orbital x-ray to the imaging center.

And while it's often the case that it's silly to ask medical
questions on a home repair group, or home repair on a legal group,
etc. I'd give 90 to 1 odds that there is no metal in my eyes. You
guys work with grinders a lot more than my othopedist and I figured
you'd come up with a way I could have metal and not have noticed.

For example, when I was 6 and a cocker spaniel was following me, I
walked to another cocker spaniel I knew, so they could get to know
each other. The first one ignored the other and jumped all over me.
I couldn't tell if it was gratitude or anger. My mother couldn't
tell if the wounds on my back were claw scratches or if there was a
bite too, so she took me not to a doctor, but to a vet, who she
figured had more experience looking at dog bite wounds. (He said
there were no bites.)


Well at the very least it is an interesting topic, one which perhaps

Yes, as Trader sort of said, it's just amazing that two clinics could
have such different attitudes towards this. The first one that said
not to worry has 12 offices in Baltimore and adjacent counties. The
second one has 26 offices. Each of these 38 places has at least one
M.D. radiologist on duty.l. And both chains have many more offices
nationwide. Yet they have very different standards on this. (It was
the one with the strict standard that, when I asked, said I could feel
the metal thing in my eye move the moment I stepped into the room.
The machine doesn't have to be ON, becaue the magnet is always
magnetic. 1.5 teslas strong. .

Now I didn't feel anything, but that could be because I went straight
from the door to the machine, had other th ings on my mind, and only
lasted 3 seconds in t he machine before I panicked. If I had gone
into the room more slowly and waited maybe I would have felt it. But
what I think is the case is that there is no metal and nothing to
feel.

OTOH, if I get this orbital x-ray once, and I keep a better record in
my head of my grinding habits, I'll only need the one x-ray for the
rest of my life. (BTW, I'm also slightly claustrophobic and just got
off the phone with one of the 4 places, out of 38, that have wide bore
but closed MRI. (Open MRI that they advertise so much doesn't have
nearly the picture quality a spine doctor needs. It's adequate I'm
sure for some other puproses. X-rays and maybe CT and PET scans don't
show soft tissue. MRI's do, but they take 30, in my case, to 120
minutes and the machne clangs the whole time, just to make it worse.
They do have earphones and music and in this case FM radio stations
you can listen to.with earphones.

So they tell you to get a prescription for valium or something if you
have claustrophobia and to have someone pick you up and take you home.
My usual people are busy next week. I've never had a valium and have
no idea how tranquil it will make me for how long. In the opposite
direction, I can drink caffeinated coffee and go right to sleep


some here have not considered. I know about the risk, and would not
hesitate getting thoroughly "checked out" prior to having an MRI done.

That's what I'll do.

So, to answer OP, I personally would get the orbital x-ray done, just to
be on the safe side.

Dr. Jon

I'd go to the eye doctor and let him/her decide.

And what if the eye doctor says not to get the orbital x-ray and not to
worry about it, are you going to trust that person to make that decision
for you? I sure as hell wouldn't.

**Exactly. I have had so many examples of malpractice on me , I feel
the need to do my own research.

Fainted and hit the floor when I stood up, in front of my mother.
FAmily doctor decided I had epilepsy and gave me a pill for that.
Mother insisted on specialist neurologist, adn he put me on a second
pill in addition, also for epilepsy. When my mother asked if it was
habit forming, he said "What do you think we are doing here, Mrs.
Bigfoot, running an opium den?" She insisted on another speicallist,
this time it was a neurosurgeon. He watched my EEG and took me off
all the drugs. It turns out all I have is orthostatic hypotension,
which 1/4 to a 1/3 of all Americans have to some degree or other.

Dislocated my shoulder at college, went home the next day and saw the
family doctor the day after that. He should have immobilized my arm
and maybe I wouldn't have had 15 more dislocations and needed surgery.

Went to a clinic for a pain in my side. Doctor says I need
appendectomy that day. Friend gets me appt. at one of the fancy
hospitals on York Avenue in NYC. He said I just had a bruise. I was
15 pounds overweight and had the slightest bulge at my waist but it
was enough to hide the bruise from me. I should have used a mirror.

There are a couple I keep foregtting, plus stories my friends have
told me.

Jon

Thanks and thanks all.



No disrespect intended here but some of your stories are scaring me. I
dread the day I get really sick due to old age. I got some experience
going thru the medical system when my mother was old and dread going
thru that experience again for myself.

On 02-14-2013 09:38, Doug Miller wrote:
micky wrote in
:

[big snip]
Do I need the x-ray of my eyes?

Why are you asking for medical advice in a home-repair group on Usenet? How in hell should
we know? Ask your doctor.

Fairly obvious from what you snipped that he asked two doctors,
and either one is greedy or the other is an idiot.

--
Wes Groleau

A pessimist says the glass is half empty.
An optimist says the glass is half full.
An engineer says somebody made the glass
twice as big as it needed to be.

On 02-14-2013 16:58, micky wrote:
So they tell you to get a prescription for valium or something if you
have claustrophobia and to have someone pick you up and take you home.
My usual people are busy next week. I've never had a valium and have
no idea how tranquil it will make me for how long. In the opposite
direction, I can drink caffeinated coffee and go right to sleep

Probably not valium. I had valium for a dental appointment with little
effect. But for a root canal, I had something else and I have no memory
of getting into the chair nor anything else till I woke up on my own
couch eight hours later.

--
Wes Groleau

€œThere ain't nothin' in this world that's worth being a snot over.€�
€” Larry Wall

On 02-14-2013 21:20, Doug wrote:
And what if the eye doctor says not to get the orbital x-ray and not to
worry about it, are you going to trust that person to make that decision
for you? I sure as hell wouldn't.

Doctors generally don't talk about stuff outside their expertise.
Bottom line tho is if it has to do with my eyes, yes I'll obey,
otherwise I'll seek other expertise.

Well, if it has to do with an MRI, isn't it outside the eye doctor's
expertise? OTOH, if the MRI "experts" can't agree, then maybe an eye
doctor is a good tie-breaker.

--
Wes Groleau

There are more Baroque musicians than any other kind.

Most MRI units have electromagnets. They might also have some permanent
ones in there too, I don't know. I was in one open unit myself. I would not
like that tube.
They put a smaller animal unit on one floor of a research facility. I was
walking around above with a string and nail. Moved pretty good.

Small fragment of metal probably do little with the RF field, but you know
what goes first is eye fluid with microwaves.

Greg

On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 23:08:07 -0500, Wes Groleau
wrote:

On 02-14-2013 09:38, Doug Miller wrote:
micky wrote in
:

[big snip]
Do I need the x-ray of my eyes?

Why are you asking for medical advice in a home-repair group on Usenet? How in hell should
we know? Ask your doctor.

Fairly obvious from what you snipped that he asked two doctors,
and either one is greedy or the other is an idiot.

Actually, neither were doctors. They were staff at these imaging
clincis, One was the guy who showed me the locker to store my metal
clothes and who started the machine to slide me into the doughnut
Maybe he was going to do the whole test.

The other, who said I had to have the orbiatla xray, was someone on
the phone, when I called to learn details and make an appointment.

Buit I dont' think either was going off on hir own. I think each
represeented the policy of the clinic, and presumably of the chain
each clinic was a part of.


Regarding the same GP who didn't immobilize my bad shoulder and who
made the iniitial mistaken diagnosis of epilepsy: When I was still in
6th grade, JHS and HS, 7 7years, would not do the slightest thing
over the telephone, even renew a prescription. It wasn't about
making money, because he never charged us (and I saw his books once
and 1/3 of the patients he saw that day he saw for free.) My
mother was a cynic who though he was sued once, and was scared of
being suied again. . I'm a goody two shoes and I figure he knew some
doctor, who might not even have been sued, but knew he made an error,
when he didn't see the patient and relied on the phone.

Maybe these two clinics and whoever makes the medical decisions are
like that. One is using a valid, medically accepted standard, 3 or 4
hours of grinding and a little cutting is not a risk. And the other
was once sued or knew someone , and was taking no chances, no matter
what the "standard of care" nomrally is.


Although I tend to agree with whoever said, in many areas it's not
about 4 hours. It's about one second when something bigger than normal
or going in a different driection leaves the grinder and goes into my
eye.

I've always wondered about that wrt xrays. My brother's a
radiologist and he has to wear a clip on plastic rectangle, that has
some x-ray film inside. Every week they develop it to make sure he
hasn't gotten too many x-rays. But it seems to me it is likely just
one ray that hits the wrong spot that causes problem. I can't ask
my brother this, because a) he never like the physics part of
radiology, he hasn't done therapy for 45 years, so he really doesn't
get any radiation. . He just reads xrays (and mris cat scans, etc)
and says what they mean And I don't want to tell him about the pain
in my back until I get rid of it or I know more. .


This post needs editing, but I'm falling asleep in my chair.

On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 01:56:55 -0500, micky
wrote:


Becaue of lower back pain, I need an MRI. I've done maybe 3 or 4
hours total of metal grinding in the last 30 years, and worn safety
glasses during most of it. Also, because of the direction the grind
stone spns, metal round off and stone that comes off t he grindstone
heads down towards my feet, not up to my face. The housing around
both of my grinders keeps other metal and stone dust from heading up
or towards me.

There are two chains of imaging clinics here and when I told one that
I had spent about 3 hours of the last 30 years grinding, they said,
"Don't worry about it. The restrictions** are for people who do it for
work, day in and day out."

For unrelated reasons I had to call the second chain and the second
one said, "Any grinding presents a risk. You need to have an orbital
X-ray, to check for metal in your eyes, before we can do the MRI.
And you need a prescription from your doctor before we can give the
orbital xray. We won't do the MRI otherwise."

So now I'm trying to decide if there is any risk in my backbround. I
used goggles most of the time, but not every time I repaired a
screwdriver. Because a bench grinder blows the stone and metal
particles down. Below my hands. The housing keeps stuff from
blowing up at my eyes.

Still on ohter occasions I've gotten wood in my eyes so maybe I've
gotten metal too. I've sawed some metal with a band saw, but that
discharges down also. I've used a hack saw quite a few times, but
grvidty makes the metal fall down, unless I was under the saw. If so,
I'm almost certailn I wore goggles. or at least safety glasses. (the
prohibition includes metal working also.)


The office manager said that if I had metal in my eye, as soon as I
entered the MRI room, I would feel it being pulled towards the magnet,
which is not an electro-magnet and is always "ON". That paper clips
can be pulled out of one's hands even when you are 3 feet away.

I was actually in the bed and for 3 seconds my head was in the
doughnut (the magnet or very neer the aagnet and had noticed nothing.
(Of course this was the original bore MRI and my nose was only an inch
from t he top and that's what I was concentrating on, once I noticed
it.

Do I need the x-ray of my eyes?



As an aside.told this story to my 75-year old friend, who used to own
a small
factory, and his father before him, and he remembered 50 years ago
getting some metal in his eye(maybe from something another employee
was doing) and having to go to the Wilmer Eye Clinic, which is still
here and well-known, and they had some special machine to take the
filing out of his eye.

I worked briefly in a machine shop and have been doing a lot of
grinding over the years. When I was younger I never wore eye
protection. Now that I'm older and realize I'm not invincible I do. I
was told to get an X-ray before getting an MRI. IMHO it is very
unlikely you have any metal in your eyes.. I had none in mine... BUT
there is no reason not to go get the X-ray first and then get the MRI.
It would be foolish to just hope for the best given the difficulty of
replacing an eyeball if you do happen to have a stray piece of metal
in there.

On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 06:17:12 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Feb 14, 1:56*am, micky wrote:

For unrelated reasons I had to call the second chain and the second
one said, "Any grinding presents a risk. *You need to have an orbital
X-ray, to check for metal in your eyes, *before we can do the MRI.
And you need a prescription from your doctor before we can give the
orbital xray. * We won't do the MRI otherwise."

It sounds like they are erring on the side of safety. I think
you also have to understand that all patients are not like
you or I. There are language barriers, memory issues, etc.
A metal fragment going into your eye would almost certainly
send you to the eye doctor. For someone else, who knows
for sure.....

My metal shop teacher (with 6 weeks on printing) , in the 8th grade
told us how his brother got a metal sliver in his eye (and iirc he
didnt' do anything about it) and it eventually worked its way through
the sphere which is the eye and got inside of it. A disgusting story
that made me and I'm sure the rest of us very cautious. (Now it
occurs to me that maybe it never happened to his brother, but I'm sure
it's happened to some people.)

On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 20:28:11 -0600, Doug
wrote:

On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 16:58:32 -0500, micky
wrote:

On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 11:44:29 -0800, Jon Danniken
wrote:

On 02/14/2013 10:07 AM, Doug wrote:
On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 09:30:46 -0800, Jon Danniken
wrote:

On 02/14/2013 06:38 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
micky wrote in
:

[big snip]
Do I need the x-ray of my eyes?

Why are you asking for medical advice in a home-repair group on Usenet? How in hell should
we know? Ask your doctor.

It's complicated. Yours is not a bad answer, but it brings up a lot
of thoughs that relate to this. If I went to the EYE doctor, he'd
probably tell me to go back to the Imaging lab and get an X-ray. And
if he said do nothing, see below**. So why waste his time and mine
when I can just call the orthopedist and he'll fax a prescription for
the orbital x-ray to the imaging center.

And while it's often the case that it's silly to ask medical
questions on a home repair group, or home repair on a legal group,
etc. I'd give 90 to 1 odds that there is no metal in my eyes. You
guys work with grinders a lot more than my othopedist and I figured
you'd come up with a way I could have metal and not have noticed.

For example, when I was 6 and a cocker spaniel was following me, I
walked to another cocker spaniel I knew, so they could get to know
each other. The first one ignored the other and jumped all over me.
I couldn't tell if it was gratitude or anger. My mother couldn't
tell if the wounds on my back were claw scratches or if there was a
bite too, so she took me not to a doctor, but to a vet, who she
figured had more experience looking at dog bite wounds. (He said
there were no bites.)


Well at the very least it is an interesting topic, one which perhaps

Yes, as Trader sort of said, it's just amazing that two clinics could
have such different attitudes towards this. The first one that said
not to worry has 12 offices in Baltimore and adjacent counties. The
second one has 26 offices. Each of these 38 places has at least one
M.D. radiologist on duty.l. And both chains have many more offices
nationwide. Yet they have very different standards on this. (It was
the one with the strict standard that, when I asked, said I could feel
the metal thing in my eye move the moment I stepped into the room.
The machine doesn't have to be ON, becaue the magnet is always
magnetic. 1.5 teslas strong. .

Now I didn't feel anything, but that could be because I went straight
from the door to the machine, had other th ings on my mind, and only
lasted 3 seconds in t he machine before I panicked. If I had gone
into the room more slowly and waited maybe I would have felt it. But
what I think is the case is that there is no metal and nothing to
feel.

OTOH, if I get this orbital x-ray once, and I keep a better record in
my head of my grinding habits, I'll only need the one x-ray for the
rest of my life. (BTW, I'm also slightly claustrophobic and just got
off the phone with one of the 4 places, out of 38, that have wide bore
but closed MRI. (Open MRI that they advertise so much doesn't have
nearly the picture quality a spine doctor needs. It's adequate I'm
sure for some other puproses. X-rays and maybe CT and PET scans don't
show soft tissue. MRI's do, but they take 30, in my case, to 120
minutes and the machne clangs the whole time, just to make it worse.
They do have earphones and music and in this case FM radio stations
you can listen to.with earphones.

So they tell you to get a prescription for valium or something if you
have claustrophobia and to have someone pick you up and take you home.
My usual people are busy next week. I've never had a valium and have
no idea how tranquil it will make me for how long. In the opposite
direction, I can drink caffeinated coffee and go right to sleep


some here have not considered. I know about the risk, and would not
hesitate getting thoroughly "checked out" prior to having an MRI done.

That's what I'll do.

So, to answer OP, I personally would get the orbital x-ray done, just to
be on the safe side.

Dr. Jon

I'd go to the eye doctor and let him/her decide.

And what if the eye doctor says not to get the orbital x-ray and not to
worry about it, are you going to trust that person to make that decision
for you? I sure as hell wouldn't.

**Exactly. I have had so many examples of malpractice on me , I feel
the need to do my own research.

Fainted and hit the floor when I stood up, in front of my mother.
FAmily doctor decided I had epilepsy and gave me a pill for that.
Mother insisted on specialist neurologist, adn he put me on a second
pill in addition, also for epilepsy. When my mother asked if it was
habit forming, he said "What do you think we are doing here, Mrs.
Bigfoot, running an opium den?" She insisted on another speicallist,
this time it was a neurosurgeon. He watched my EEG and took me off
all the drugs. It turns out all I have is orthostatic hypotension,
which 1/4 to a 1/3 of all Americans have to some degree or other.

Dislocated my shoulder at college, went home the next day and saw the
family doctor the day after that. He should have immobilized my arm
and maybe I wouldn't have had 15 more dislocations and needed surgery.

Went to a clinic for a pain in my side. Doctor says I need
appendectomy that day. Friend gets me appt. at one of the fancy
hospitals on York Avenue in NYC. He said I just had a bruise. I was
15 pounds overweight and had the slightest bulge at my waist but it
was enough to hide the bruise from me. I should have used a mirror.

There are a couple I keep foregtting, plus stories my friends have
told me.

Jon

Thanks and thanks all.



No disrespect intended here but some of your stories are scaring me.

If you mean the occasions when I was malpracticed on (none of which
probably actually caused me harm** ) I would have no reason to feel
disrespected because you say that they scare you. If otoh, there is
another reason that you suspect you're disrespecting me, I can't
imagine what it is.

**The anticonvulsants didn't hurt me*** because my mother made me go
to two different specialists, until one made sense. The appendectomy
recommendation didn't hurt me because I did what my mother did, got a
second opinion. We may well have paid cash for these second
opinions, but it's well worth it.

***Although that might have been the semester I got a D in English,
instead of my usual B. . It was the same year, but if it was the
semester, how come I didn't think of that as an excuse at the time?

Still they offered me honors English the next year, 9th grade, and I
wondered why considering the D. Years later I learned that if you
got good math grades, or something, they offerred you honors
everything.
I
dread the day I get really sick due to old age. I got some experience
going thru the medical system when my mother was old and dread going
thru that experience again for myself.

You should tqe notes when you see the doctor, and have a friend go
with you if possible. The older you get, the more important that is,
to hear what they are saying while you are taking notes or considering
what you will say next. I've heard, Never go into the hospital
without telling somone that's where you went, or the hospital may
forget that you are there.

Some of my stories were 40 and 50 years ago -- the appendicitis story
was 30 years ago --, but they still do things like these and worse.
I had a bladder biopsy one Friday** morning last spring and couldn't
pee afterwards. At 2AM, I'd called the practice's doctor on call and
decided I'd better go tthe emergency room, because I still hadn't
urinated. Even on a Friday night, they registered me within 5
minutes and I saw the nurse 3 minutes later, and the doctor very soon
after that. They admitted me and had me take big calcium and
potassium pills. By noon or 2PM, the nurse told me that another
blood test showed my Ca and K were back up to normal levels, and had
in fact increased so much, it was impossible to have done so in the 12
hours I'd been there. That what had happened was at 2 in the
morning, they'd confused my blood test with someone else's. And I
probably never needed those pills in the first place (and may not
have needed to be admitted!) . Thank goodness it was Ca and K, where
a little extra won't hurt me. I didn't complain to anyone. Maybe I
should have. I wonder if they did any follow-up on t he mixed up
blood tests on their own.


**Patients like Fridays because they have the weekend to recover, but
it means the next day, your doctor isn't in the office.

On Fri, 15 Feb 2013 02:54:33 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:


I worked briefly in a machine shop and have been doing a lot of
grinding over the years. When I was younger I never wore eye
protection. Now that I'm older and realize I'm not invincible I do. I
was told to get an X-ray before getting an MRI. IMHO it is very
unlikely you have any metal in your eyes.. I had none in mine... BUT
there is no reason not to go get the X-ray first and then get the MRI.
It would be foolish to just hope for the best given the difficulty of
replacing an eyeball if you do happen to have a stray piece of metal
in there.

Thanks. I'll do that.

BTW, what I have gotten near my eye is wires from the wire brush.

I love the wire brush and use it a lot**. and every so often a wire
comes out. and sometimes stab me in the face and stick there. I've
gotten much better about wearing safety glasses.

The wire brush has often had no shield, because it was bigger than the
shield I had

** A few minutes witha wire brush on a grinder makes things look like
new. All t he rust off tools, a little oil to make them work well.
Works on wood and other materials too.

On Feb 15, 12:20*am, micky wrote:
On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 23:08:07 -0500, Wes Groleau

wrote:
On 02-14-2013 09:38, Doug Miller wrote:
micky wrote in
m:

[big snip]
Do I need the x-ray of my eyes?

Why are you asking for medical advice in a home-repair group on Usenet? How in hell should
we know? Ask your doctor.

Fairly obvious from what you snipped that he asked two doctors,
and either one is greedy or the other is an idiot.

Actually, neither were doctors. *They were staff at these imaging
clincis, * One was the guy who showed me the locker to store my metal
clothes and who started the machine to slide me into the doughnut
Maybe he was going to do the whole test.

The other, who said I had to have the orbiatla *xray, *was someone on
the phone, when I called to learn details and make an appointment.

Buit I dont' think either was going off on hir own. * I think each
represeented the policy of the clinic, and presumably of the chain
each clinic was a part of.


Then per Wes, the one that has a policy that the pre-procedure X-Ray
is only necessary if you've been doing grinding frequently, but not
if you did it occasionally, is clearly operated by idiots. A
rational
policy that makes sense to me is like this one which I posted
previously from an MRI facility I found online:


"Previous Metal in the Eyes - If you have EVER had any metal chips or
fragments in your eyes from welding, grinding, or any accidents of
any
sort, an eye x-ray must be taken prior to the study. Even if the
metal
fragment was taken out, or came out on its own, or if it occurred a
long time ago, an x-ray is the only way to confirm that there are no
fragments remaining. "


That would seem to be the important aspect, whether you had metal in
your eyes previously or not. Not whether you ground metal a few
times
a year or everyday. A dummy that isn't a pro could probably have a
higher probability of having had metal in their eye doing it
occasionally
as opposed to every day. And you would think you would remember it
happening. But, given the wide range of patients these
places encounter, I can see the policy of the place requiring it for
all
patients. You could have people with memory lapses, liars,
coummincation
problems, who knows....
But the other policy, basing it on frequency of grinding, is just
nuts.....

On 2/15/2013 12:20 AM, micky wrote:


Regarding the same GP who didn't immobilize my bad shoulder and who
made the iniitial mistaken diagnosis of epilepsy: When I was still
in 6th grade, JHS and HS, 7 7years, would not do the slightest
thing over the telephone, even renew a prescription. It wasn't
about making money, because he never charged us (and I saw his books
once and 1/3 of the patients he saw that day he saw for free.)
My mother was a cynic who though he was sued once, and was scared of
being suied again. . I'm a goody two shoes and I figure he knew
some doctor, who might not even have been sued, but knew he made an
error, when he didn't see the patient and relied on the phone.

The reason we spend 2-6 years of additional training (depending upon the
specialty) and take difficult board certification exams to become board
certified specialists is because there's a lot to learn beyond the
training of a GP. When I was in orthopedic practice and was called from
the ER, I never accepted the clinical assessment of a non-orthopedist
and never accepted an x-ray reading from a non-radiologist. I felt if
the issue was significant enough to be called, I needed to see the
patient and the x-ray myself and always went into the ER even when told
there was no need. I estimate that 25-40% of the time I found something
significant that had been missed. Collecting a fee was not part of the
equation - I was active duty military.

Maybe these two clinics and whoever makes the medical decisions are
like that. One is using a valid, medically accepted standard, 3 or
4 hours of grinding and a little cutting is not a risk. And the
other was once sued or knew someone , and was taking no chances, no
matter what the "standard of care" nomrally is.

All medical therapeutic and diagnostic decisions are probabilistic and
each practitioner's training, clinical experience, and willingness to
take chances is different. The TV shows cause laymen to think that if
the database of relevant tests is large enough, and the decision
algorithm is followed, the "correct" conclusion will be achieved with
100% accuracy. Real life practice is not like that.


Although I tend to agree with whoever said, in many areas it's not
about 4 hours. It's about one second when something bigger than
normal or going in a different driection leaves the grinder and goes
into my eye.

Yes. For each patient, for each condition, prognosis and outcome, it is
always either 0% chance or 100% chance. That's why it is unwise to
blindly expect the statistical likelihood for a group to pertain to
every member of that group.

I've always wondered about that wrt xrays. My brother's a
radiologist and he has to wear a clip on plastic rectangle, that has
some x-ray film inside. Every week they develop it to make sure he
hasn't gotten too many x-rays. But it seems to me it is likely
just one ray that hits the wrong spot that causes problem. I
can't ask my brother this, because a) he never like the physics part
of radiology, he hasn't done therapy for 45 years, so he really
doesn't get any radiation. . He just reads xrays (and mris cat
scans, etc) and says what they mean And I don't want to tell him
about the pain in my back until I get rid of it or I know more. .


x-ray film badges monitor for malfunctioning equipment in addition to
violations of proper radiation safety protocols. Mountains of books and
articles have been written about radiation risks. In most exposure
scenarios, there seems to be a minimum threshold of exposure below which
our statistical techniques fail to detect increased risk. Whether that
reflects a physiological ability of the body to kill almost all isolated
single cells gone wild or a weakness in the statistics - probably a
combination of both. However, above that threshold, there's a clear
dose - effect correlation with risk of bad things happening. The
dose-effect curves are unique to each type of radiation, the energy
level of that radiation, the tissue being irradiated, etc. etc. etc.
You'd need to take an entire course in radiation physics and another one
in radiation physiology and pathology just to get an introductory
understanding of the complexity of the subject.

So they tell you to get a prescription for valium or something if you
have claustrophobia and to have someone pick you up and take you home.
My usual people are busy next week. I've never had a valium and have
no idea how tranquil it will make me for how long. In the opposite
direction, I can drink caffeinated coffee and go right to sleep

Probably not valium. I had valium for a dental appointment with little
effect. But for a root canal, I had something else and I have no memory
of getting into the chair nor anything else till I woke up on my own couch
eight hours later.

--
Wes Groleau

When I do an MRI, I go into a self-induced transcendental meditation state.
I tell the tekkie what I'm doing, and add "Now, when I'm done, I'll be
awake, but just on the verge of it. Wake me up slowly, and don't hit me
with the ammonia, or hit a code blue. I'll be fully awake in 15 seconds or
so." It's so easy.

Steve

"micky" wrote

I worked briefly in a machine shop and have been doing a lot of
grinding over the years. When I was younger I never wore eye
protection. Now that I'm older and realize I'm not invincible I do. I
was told to get an X-ray before getting an MRI. IMHO it is very
unlikely you have any metal in your eyes.. I had none in mine... BUT
there is no reason not to go get the X-ray first and then get the MRI.
It would be foolish to just hope for the best given the difficulty of
replacing an eyeball if you do happen to have a stray piece of metal
in there.

Thanks. I'll do that.

BTW, what I have gotten near my eye is wires from the wire brush.

I love the wire brush and use it a lot**. and every so often a wire
comes out. and sometimes stab me in the face and stick there. I've
gotten much better about wearing safety glasses.

The wire brush has often had no shield, because it was bigger than the
shield I had

** A few minutes witha wire brush on a grinder makes things look like
new. All t he rust off tools, a little oil to make them work well.
Works on wood and other materials too.

Old welders used to use a mane hair from a horse's mane or tail, and draw it
over the eyeball, and a lot of times that would snag it out. I wonder now
how a stack of those super magnets would do, if that would pluck out the
metal sliver.

Steve

On Fri, 15 Feb 2013 17:43:50 -0500, "Steven L."
wrote:

On 2/14/2013 4:37 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, February 14, 2013 10:23:17 AM UTC-5, EXT wrote:
One thing no one has mentioned, is the metal particle can heat up under the
RF pulses, and this can cause pain or damage to the area around it. Even
metal based pigments in tattoos and makeup apparently can be a source of
problems.

Mythbusters proved the tattoo thing was bull**** about 10 years ago. They had a chick on the show that was covered in tattoos. MRI'd the **** out of her, and nothing...

They tattooed a chunk of dead pig with metal-based ink with extra metal mixed in. MRI'd the **** out of that too, and nothing...

That was one of their early shows where they were actually trying to be scientific. Before they just blew **** up all the time.


But what they recently discovered, is that the new powerful 3 gauss
magnets in the newest MRI machines can actually affect the fluid in your
inner ear, making you very dizzy.

The reason is that the fluid in your inner ear contains dissolved salt
ions. And as it sloshes around, it creates little electrical vectors
which interact with the mag field from the MRI. That can cause the
sensation of vertigo.

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/..._mr i_vertigo

I read the whole thing. Very interesting. Thanks.

In fact I may skip the 3T machine here and go to the 1.5T in part to
avoid this problem.

BTW, I think you mean 3T, 3 tesla. 10,000 gauss = 1 tesla. (Of
course I just learned that tonight.)

I have a sensitive inner ear. The first time I had an MRI, I got
deathly ill from vertigo. So my physician advised me to take Bonine
(meclizine) next time. That did the trick, all right.

That's good.

I hate vertigo. I had a girlfriend in NYC, and 2 of the first 3
dates I had with her, I threw up. One was from the double rotating
teacups at Octoberfest and t he other time, at the Jersey shore, the
bucket where the floor falls away after it is spinning fast enough.
I was fine until it was done, and then I turned my head.

I also won't play those children's games where you spin around until y
ou fall down. I got sick, literally, of those when I was 7.

On Fri, 15 Feb 2013 22:58:35 -0700, "Steve B"
wrote:


"micky" wrote

I worked briefly in a machine shop and have been doing a lot of
grinding over the years. When I was younger I never wore eye
protection. Now that I'm older and realize I'm not invincible I do. I
was told to get an X-ray before getting an MRI. IMHO it is very
unlikely you have any metal in your eyes.. I had none in mine... BUT
there is no reason not to go get the X-ray first and then get the MRI.
It would be foolish to just hope for the best given the difficulty of
replacing an eyeball if you do happen to have a stray piece of metal
in there.

Thanks. I'll do that.

BTW, what I have gotten near my eye is wires from the wire brush.

I love the wire brush and use it a lot**. and every so often a wire
comes out. and sometimes stab me in the face and stick there. I've
gotten much better about wearing safety glasses.

The wire brush has often had no shield, because it was bigger than the
shield I had

** A few minutes witha wire brush on a grinder makes things look like
new. All t he rust off tools, a little oil to make them work well.
Works on wood and other materials too.

Old welders used to use a mane hair from a horse's mane or tail, and draw it
over the eyeball, and a lot of times that would snag it out.

That's sickening, but I guess I would do it if I needed it. As I
said, my friend went maybe 50 years ago to the Wilmer Eye Clinic
(world famous and part of Johns Hopkins Hospital now) where they had
a machine to take the metal sliver out of his eye. But you can't
have one of those everywhere, like you can a horse hair.

I wonder now
how a stack of those super magnets would do,

Pretty well, pehaps.

if that would pluck out the
metal sliver.

Maybe. Some interesting values, from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_%28unit%29

31 µT (3.1×10-5 T) - strength of Earth's magnetic field at 0°
latitude (on the equator)
5 mT - the strength of a typical refrigerator magnet
0.3 T - the strength of solar sunspots
1.25 T - magnetic field intensity at the surface of a neodymium
magnet
1 T to 2.4 T - coil gap of a typical loudspeaker magnet
1.5 T to 3 T - strength of medical magnetic resonance imaging
systems in practice, experimentally up to 17 T[9]

The 3 prior ones are sort of amazing. Especailly that iiuc, the empty
space where the coil of a loudspeaker resides is 1 to 2.4T, almost as
much as an MRI machine's strength. And those new supermagnets
anyone can afford are a close third.

4 T - strength of the superconducting magnet built around the CMS
detector at CERN[10]
13 T - strength of ITER fusion reactor[11]
16 T - magnetic field strength required to levitate a frog as part
of an Ig Nobel Prize winning project.[12]


Steve

On Fri, 15 Feb 2013 07:48:49 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Feb 15, 12:20*am, micky wrote:
On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 23:08:07 -0500, Wes Groleau

wrote:
On 02-14-2013 09:38, Doug Miller wrote:
micky wrote in
m:

[big snip]
Do I need the x-ray of my eyes?

Why are you asking for medical advice in a home-repair group on Usenet? How in hell should
we know? Ask your doctor.

Fairly obvious from what you snipped that he asked two doctors,
and either one is greedy or the other is an idiot.

Actually, neither were doctors. *They were staff at these imaging
clincis, * One was the guy who showed me the locker to store my metal
clothes

Actually he had me take off all my clothes except underwear (and gave
me something else to wear). But they do allow you to keep the filings
in your teeth! Related to teeth: "Caps, crowns, pins, permanent
wires, etc. can be scanned with no problem."

Tidbit:s:
Eye Shadow - Some eye makeup has a metallic base and may cause your
eyelids to flutter. Therefore, if you are having a study done of your
head, please remove all eye makeup before coming to the MRI Center.

Hernia Mesh - This is okay and will not cause you any harm, even if it
is metal.

Rings [see the last sentence especially] - Rings are okay to keep on
if they are difficult to get off. They will not be affected by the
magnetic field and will not cause the patient any harm during the
scan. One exception might be if we are scanning a hand or
wrist...having metal near the area we are scanning may cause artifact
or interference in the imaging. Earrings will need to be taken out, as
will nose rings, lip rings, tongue studs, and other body piercings,
etc. (If you do not remove them, the magnet may remove it for you!)

Loads of other rules not copied.

Save your operative r eports from anything they insert in you.
Especially model and serial numbers.

and who started the machine to slide me into the doughnut
Maybe he was going to do the whole test.

The other, who said I had to have the orbiatla *xray, *was someone on
the phone, when I called to learn details and make an appointment.

Buit I dont' think either was going off on hir own. * I think each
represeented the policy of the clinic, and presumably of the chain
each clinic was a part of.


Then per Wes, the one that has a policy that the pre-procedure X-Ray
is only necessary if you've been doing grinding frequently, but not
if you did it occasionally, is clearly operated by idiots. A
rational
policy that makes sense to me is like this one which I posted
previously from an MRI facility I found online:


"Previous Metal in the Eyes - If you have EVER had any metal chips or
fragments in your eyes from welding, grinding, or any accidents of

Googling for these two lines shows several places using the same
language. And the third hit is your very post to which I"m replying.

any
sort, an eye x-ray must be taken prior to the study. Even if the
metal
fragment was taken out, or came out on its own, or if it occurred a
long time ago, an x-ray is the only way to confirm that there are no
fragments remaining. "


That would seem to be the important aspect, whether you had metal in
your eyes previously or not. Not whether you ground metal a few
times
a year or everyday. A dummy that isn't a pro could probably have a
higher probability of having had metal in their eye doing it
occasionally
as opposed to every day. And you would think you would remember it
happening.

In the old days, I remembered everything I'd ever done, everything I'd
ever said, and every place I'd ever been. But that is fading.

I was certain my dentist had told me a very touching story (that
related somewhat to dentists) . So I went back to him, even though
I'd moved out of town, and asked him about the story. He says he
never heard it before. (Of course he might have forgotten. He's a few
years older than I am.)

A similar thing with a story a friend told me. Insists he didn't tell
me and never heard it before.

? But, given the wide range of patients these
places encounter, I can see the policy of the place requiring it for
all
patients. You could have people with memory lapses, liars,
coummincation
problems, who knows....
But the other policy, basing it on frequency of grinding, is just
nuts.....

I was back at the orthopedist's office today and didnt' talk to him
but did talk to the office manager, a busy woman answering questions
for a non-doctor office and medical stafff of about 20. She said,
"Any history of metal work" and I told her how the place in the same
building they are in had such a lax standard. She waved her arms, but
later I will go back and tell someone who is not busy and higher up.

The two clicinics I wrote about appear to be in Maryland only, despite
what I had written, and neither has that I can find a policy
statement online about metal in one's eye like the kind you posted
above.

At any rate, I found at least one machine that is 70cm in diameter
(instead of 50,) and only 45 'inches from one end to end, which means
if my lumbar back is in the middle of the 45 inches, I think my head
will be outside. In the first machine, the "ceiling" of the tube was
just one inch above my nose. I only lasted 3 seconds. Even now,
just thinking about these machines gives me the heeby jeebies. I also
got a prescription for a tranquilizer, but maybe I won't need that.

On Fri, 15 Feb 2013 22:55:54 -0700, "Steve B"
wrote:


So they tell you to get a prescription for valium or something if you
have claustrophobia and to have someone pick you up and take you home.
My usual people are busy next week. I've never had a valium and have
no idea how tranquil it will make me for how long. In the opposite
direction, I can drink caffeinated coffee and go right to sleep

Probably not valium. I had valium for a dental appointment with little
effect. But for a root canal, I had something else and I have no memory
of getting into the chair nor anything else till I woke up on my own couch
eight hours later.

--
Wes Groleau

When I do an MRI, I go into a self-induced transcendental meditation state.
I tell the tekkie what I'm doing, and add "Now, when I'm done, I'll be
awake, but just on the verge of it. Wake me up slowly, and don't hit me
with the ammonia, or hit a code blue. I'll be fully awake in 15 seconds or
so." It's so easy.

I used to do that during coffee breaks at the summer job I had after
my second year in college. The other guys played a game with coke
bottles, witha 25 cent pool and the winner being the guy whose coke
bottle was made the farthest from Indianapolis.

I got tired of that, so I just sat at my desk and daydreamed. But
when the coffee break was over, I couldn't wake up. I'd be groggy and
semi-awake for 15 more minutes. I'm surprised I wasn't fired.

I mentioned this to my GP and that started a second round of finding a
doctor for epilepsy. ("Do you want to get to the bottom of this? Do
you really want to get to the bottom of this" the GP said.) He
referred me to an MD in Chciago who he said "invented the EEG". He
was so busy that even his secretary had no time to talk to my mother.
My mother had to write her letters instead.

But thanks to Wikipedia, I can confirm finally that maybe he didn't
invent it, but he did help develop the early machines, and that he was
head of the Epilepsy Clinic at the U. of Illiinois.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederic_A._Gibbs

He allowed me to get only 3 hours sleep the night before the
appointment so that I would sleep durrng the EEG. I still remember
his words afterwards. "You don't have epilepsy and you never did.".

Despite what the GP and the neurologist thought. (I learned later,
the neurologist had overseen the death of my grandfather from brain
cancer.at age 65. Not saying he could have been cured in 1953, but
it's still a blot on his record, afaic. )


Steve

On Feb 16, 4:28*am, micky wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2013 22:58:35 -0700, "Steve B"
wrote:







"micky" wrote

I worked briefly in a machine shop and have been doing a lot of
grinding over the years. *When I was younger I never wore eye
protection. *Now that I'm older and realize I'm not invincible I do. I
was told to get an X-ray before getting an MRI. *IMHO it is very
unlikely you have any metal in your eyes.. I had none in mine... BUT
there is no reason not to go get the X-ray first and then get the MRI.
It would be foolish to just hope for the best given the difficulty of
replacing an eyeball if you do happen to have a stray piece of metal
in there.

Thanks. * *I'll do that.

BTW, what I have gotten near my eye is wires from the wire brush.

I love the wire brush and use it a lot**. and every so often a wire
comes out. *and sometimes stab me in the face and stick there. * I've
gotten much better about wearing safety glasses.

The wire brush has often had no shield, because it was bigger than the
shield I had

** A few minutes witha wire brush on a grinder makes things look like
new. *All t he rust off tools, a little oil to make them work well.
Works on wood and other materials too.

Old welders used to use a mane hair from a horse's mane or tail, and draw it
over the eyeball, and a lot of times that would snag it out.

That's sickening, but I guess I would do it if I needed it. * As I
said, my friend went maybe 50 years ago to the Wilmer Eye Clinic
(world famous and *part of Johns Hopkins Hospital now) where they had
a machine to take the metal sliver out of his eye. * *But you can't
have one of those everywhere, like you can a horse hair.


No special machine is required. I've had things removed
from my eye twice. They just seat you in a chair that has
a chin rest in front of you for your head to rest in, similar
to what they use for some eye exams. They apply an
anesthetic and after it's taken effect, the doctor using
magnifiying goggles uses an instrument to pick it out.
Probably took 15 or 20 mins total.
Any opthamologist should be able to do it. That is
assuming it's just the typical small shard. If you have
an ice pick, well, that's another story.

And let me tell you, like I think it was Steve B said,
if you had something like that in your eye, you sure
as hell would know it, because it's extremely irritating,
painful and annoying. You can't wait to get to the
doctor to get it out.

On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 06:44:35 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Feb 16, 4:28*am, micky wrote:
On Fri, 15 Feb 2013 22:58:35 -0700, "Steve B"
wrote:







"micky" wrote

I worked briefly in a machine shop and have been doing a lot of
grinding over the years. *When I was younger I never wore eye
protection. *Now that I'm older and realize I'm not invincible I do. I
was told to get an X-ray before getting an MRI. *IMHO it is very
unlikely you have any metal in your eyes.. I had none in mine... BUT
there is no reason not to go get the X-ray first and then get the MRI.
It would be foolish to just hope for the best given the difficulty of
replacing an eyeball if you do happen to have a stray piece of metal
in there.

Thanks. * *I'll do that.

BTW, what I have gotten near my eye is wires from the wire brush.

I love the wire brush and use it a lot**. and every so often a wire
comes out. *and sometimes stab me in the face and stick there. * I've
gotten much better about wearing safety glasses.

The wire brush has often had no shield, because it was bigger than the
shield I had

** A few minutes witha wire brush on a grinder makes things look like
new. *All t he rust off tools, a little oil to make them work well.
Works on wood and other materials too.

Old welders used to use a mane hair from a horse's mane or tail, and draw it
over the eyeball, and a lot of times that would snag it out.

That's sickening, but I guess I would do it if I needed it. * As I
said, my friend went maybe 50 years ago to the Wilmer Eye Clinic
(world famous and *part of Johns Hopkins Hospital now) where they had
a machine to take the metal sliver out of his eye. * *But you can't
have one of those everywhere, like you can a horse hair.


No special machine is required. I've had things removed
from my eye twice. They just seat you in a chair that has
a chin rest in front of you for your head to rest in, similar
to what they use for some eye exams. They apply an
anesthetic and after it's taken effect, the doctor using
magnifiying goggles uses an instrument to pick it out.
Probably took 15 or 20 mins total.
Any opthamologist should be able to do it. That is
assuming it's just the typical small shard. If you have
an ice pick, well, that's another story.

An ice pick should be easy to remove. It has a handle.

And let me tell you, like I think it was Steve B said,
if you had something like that in your eye, you sure
as hell would know it, because it's extremely irritating,
painful and annoying. You can't wait to get to the
doctor to get it out.

My friend said too that it was very very painful. He's the one who
said they used a machine, but maybe he fortgets some details after 50
years.

My friend said too that it was very very painful. He's the one who
said they used a machine, but maybe he fortgets some details after 50
years.

I sat in a backwards chair you straddled, and rested my face and chin on
positioned mounts. There was a rod across in front of my face. A lens came
very closely, then you could see something very small coming towards your
eye. And they tell you to sit very damn still or you'll blind yourself. I
was always able to hold still. The thing just touches your eyeball, and
it's over. No pain, just a little residual itching from the metal slicing
around inside your eyelid for a while. It was always by the touch method,
but it has been a long while since the last time. I forgot, but that time,
it was a small sticker burr that flew into my eye during a dust devil at
work. The other two times were with metal.

Steve

On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 21:10:39 -0700, "Steve B"
wrote:


My friend said too that it was very very painful. He's the one who
said they used a machine, but maybe he fortgets some details after 50
years.

I sat in a backwards chair you straddled, and rested my face and chin on
positioned mounts. There was a rod across in front of my face. A lens came
very closely,

What's this about aliens?

then you could see something very small coming towards your
eye. And they tell you to sit very damn still or you'll blind yourself. I

I would do whatever the aliens said. (I assume they're from Neptune
and not Mexico.)

was always able to hold still. The thing just touches your eyeball, and
it's over. No pain, just a little residual itching from the metal slicing
around inside your eyelid for a while. It was always by the touch method,
but it has been a long while since the last time. I forgot, but that time,
it was a small sticker burr that flew into my eye during a dust devil at
work. The other two times were with metal.

So some aliens are kind to humans. That's good to hear. Glad you're
all right.

Steve