I've been looking at homes for sale and came upon one that is condemned
because it was used as a meth lab. The little research I've done shows
that there are certified contractors who can inspect and correct the
conditions to make a structure habitable. Anyone have experience with
this? What chemicals remain in the structure, how to be sure it is
safe, etc? The house needs work, just from observation, but looks like
a good candidate for rehab.

On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 08:37:23 -0400, Norminn
wrote:

I've been looking at homes for sale and came upon one that is condemned
because it was used as a meth lab. The little research I've done shows
that there are certified contractors who can inspect and correct the
conditions to make a structure habitable. Anyone have experience with
this? What chemicals remain in the structure, how to be sure it is
safe, etc? The house needs work, just from observation, but looks like
a good candidate for rehab.

I dont know anything about meth labs, but I'm sure the police or other
law enforcement people have removed all the drugs and/or materials used
to make the stuff. That leaves nothing to cleanup, except the
reputation of the house. A good scrubbing, some paint, and friendliness
to the neighbors should do the job.

Just my opinion.

On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 11:05:29 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 08:37:23 -0400, Norminn
wrote:

I've been looking at homes for sale and came upon one that is condemned
because it was used as a meth lab. The little research I've done shows
that there are certified contractors who can inspect and correct the
conditions to make a structure habitable. Anyone have experience with
this? What chemicals remain in the structure, how to be sure it is
safe, etc? The house needs work, just from observation, but looks like
a good candidate for rehab.

I dont know anything about meth labs, but I'm sure the police or other
law enforcement people have removed all the drugs and/or materials used
to make the stuff. That leaves nothing to cleanup, except the
reputation of the house. A good scrubbing, some paint, and friendliness
to the neighbors should do the job.

Just my opinion.

DAGS living in a meth lab house. Many cases of people getting sick;
even after houses were "decontaminated", and cleared by state EPA and
heath officials. Houses sold without disclosure of the toxic
chemicals. Examples of poor decontamination procedures. A real
nightmare for families. Health officials that dummy up.

Chemicals poured into the yard that contaminates water supplies, soil,
aside from the structure damage.

The OP _should_ skip this house and run away. Problems are more than
just removing visible chemical containers. Expensive too!

On 9/8/2012 12:19 PM, Oren wrote:
On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 11:05:29 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 08:37:23 -0400, Norminn
wrote:

I've been looking at homes for sale and came upon one that is condemned
because it was used as a meth lab. The little research I've done shows
that there are certified contractors who can inspect and correct the
conditions to make a structure habitable. Anyone have experience with
this? What chemicals remain in the structure, how to be sure it is
safe, etc? The house needs work, just from observation, but looks like
a good candidate for rehab.

I dont know anything about meth labs, but I'm sure the police or other
law enforcement people have removed all the drugs and/or materials used
to make the stuff. That leaves nothing to cleanup, except the
reputation of the house. A good scrubbing, some paint, and friendliness
to the neighbors should do the job.

Just my opinion.

DAGS living in a meth lab house. Many cases of people getting sick;
even after houses were "decontaminated", and cleared by state EPA and
heath officials. Houses sold without disclosure of the toxic
chemicals. Examples of poor decontamination procedures. A real
nightmare for families. Health officials that dummy up.

Chemicals poured into the yard that contaminates water supplies, soil,
aside from the structure damage.

The OP _should_ skip this house and run away. Problems are more than
just removing visible chemical containers. Expensive too!


Good points but I'm not so sure that any chemical residues would be
dangerous. You can look up recipes on the web. Usually the biggest
problem with meth labs is the ether solvent which has caused many a fire
or explosion but would be long gone from a vacated lab. Side products
could have been washed down the drain readily to be disposed of. Maybe
if house had a well and septic, then you need worry about ground water
contamination.

In article ,
wrote:

On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 08:37:23 -0400, Norminn
wrote:

I've been looking at homes for sale and came upon one that is condemned
because it was used as a meth lab. The little research I've done shows
that there are certified contractors who can inspect and correct the
conditions to make a structure habitable. Anyone have experience with
this? What chemicals remain in the structure, how to be sure it is
safe, etc? The house needs work, just from observation, but looks like
a good candidate for rehab.

I dont know anything about meth labs, but I'm sure the police or other
law enforcement people have removed all the drugs and/or materials used
to make the stuff. That leaves nothing to cleanup, except the
reputation of the house. A good scrubbing, some paint, and friendliness
to the neighbors should do the job.

Just my opinion.

The chemicals that are used in making meth seep into the wood, carpets,
soil, etc.
If interested, here is a website outlining the problem.
http://www.kci.org/meth_info/meth_cleanup.htm
--
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late
to work within the system, but too early to shoot
the *******s."-- Claire Wolfe

In article ,
Oren wrote:

The OP _should_ skip this house and run away. Problems are more than
just removing visible chemical containers. Expensive too!

I know a couple have been declared the functional equivalent of
brownfields where the house had to be torn down, trucked off to a haz
mat landfill, and a lot of the dirt around the house removed.
--
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late
to work within the system, but too early to shoot
the *******s."-- Claire Wolfe

On Sep 8, 12:05*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 08:37:23 -0400, Norminn
wrote:

I've been looking at homes for sale and came upon one that is condemned
because it was used as a meth lab. *The little research I've done shows
that there are certified contractors who can inspect and correct the
conditions to make a structure habitable. *Anyone have experience with
this? *What chemicals remain in the structure, how to be sure it is
safe, etc? *The house needs work, just from observation, but looks like
a good candidate for rehab.

I dont know anything about meth labs, but I'm sure the police or other
law enforcement people have removed all the drugs and/or materials used
to make the stuff. *That leaves nothing to cleanup, except the
reputation of the house. *A good scrubbing, some paint, and friendliness
to the neighbors should do the job.

Just my opinion.

Since you don't know anything about meth labs
you shouldn't be saying that YOU think just scrubbing
and painting is enough to clean up the TOXIC waste
residues which are deposited on EVERY surface
by the vapors given off by the cook is enough to
declare the property "clean"... The proper response
is dictated by how long the meth lab was in operation
and how high the residual concentration of toxic
chemicals at the site... For a lab used only once
or twice perhaps removing all fabrics/carpets from
the house and scrubbing/painting as well as having
any HVAC ductwork professionally cleaned would
suffice but if the lab was in operation long enough so
that the soils around the perimeter of the house have
dangerous levels of chemicals present then the
structure is not worth saving and all the contaminated
soils would have to be removed...

Kurt Ullman wrote:

~ I know a couple (houses) have been declared the functional
~ equivalent of brownfields where the house had to be torn down,
~ trucked off to a haz mat landfill, and a lot of the dirt
~ around the house removed.

A process that the entire USA will be undergoing before too much
longer...

On 9/8/2012 12:54 PM, Kurt Ullman wrote:
In article ,
wrote:

On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 08:37:23 -0400, Norminn
wrote:

I've been looking at homes for sale and came upon one that is condemned
because it was used as a meth lab. The little research I've done shows
that there are certified contractors who can inspect and correct the
conditions to make a structure habitable. Anyone have experience with
this? What chemicals remain in the structure, how to be sure it is
safe, etc? The house needs work, just from observation, but looks like
a good candidate for rehab.

I dont know anything about meth labs, but I'm sure the police or other
law enforcement people have removed all the drugs and/or materials used
to make the stuff. That leaves nothing to cleanup, except the
reputation of the house. A good scrubbing, some paint, and friendliness
to the neighbors should do the job.

Just my opinion.

The chemicals that are used in making meth seep into the wood, carpets,
soil, etc.
If interested, here is a website outlining the problem.
http://www.kci.org/meth_info/meth_cleanup.htm


I hate the kind of chemo-phobia engendered by sites like this.

I'm a retired chemist, in his seventies, in good health. If chemicals
were this bad, I should have been long dead by now.

In fact, my graduate adviser, in his eighties, just got out of jail last
year after conviction 20 years ago of running a meth lab.

On 9/8/2012 1:13 PM, Evan wrote:
On Sep 8, 12:05 pm, wrote:
On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 08:37:23 -0400, Norminn
wrote:

I've been looking at homes for sale and came upon one that is condemned
because it was used as a meth lab. The little research I've done shows
that there are certified contractors who can inspect and correct the
conditions to make a structure habitable. Anyone have experience with
this? What chemicals remain in the structure, how to be sure it is
safe, etc? The house needs work, just from observation, but looks like
a good candidate for rehab.

I dont know anything about meth labs, but I'm sure the police or other
law enforcement people have removed all the drugs and/or materials used
to make the stuff. That leaves nothing to cleanup, except the
reputation of the house. A good scrubbing, some paint, and friendliness
to the neighbors should do the job.

Just my opinion.

Since you don't know anything about meth labs
you shouldn't be saying that YOU think just scrubbing
and painting is enough to clean up the TOXIC waste
residues which are deposited on EVERY surface
by the vapors given off by the cook is enough to
declare the property "clean"... The proper response
is dictated by how long the meth lab was in operation
and how high the residual concentration of toxic
chemicals at the site... For a lab used only once
or twice perhaps removing all fabrics/carpets from
the house and scrubbing/painting as well as having
any HVAC ductwork professionally cleaned would
suffice but if the lab was in operation long enough so
that the soils around the perimeter of the house have
dangerous levels of chemicals present then the
structure is not worth saving and all the contaminated
soils would have to be removed...


Considering the community where this home is located, I have my doubts
that the lab existed on the property for very long. That said, I did
more searching and found the regs for cleanup in my state...property
must undergo very specific sampling and testing before and after
cleanup, same for disposal of materials removed. Cleanup must be by
cert. contractors, although the law allows the owner to participate
under supervision by the contractor.

Little bit he
http://www.in.gov/meth/files/Cleanin...ab_Handout.pdf

Considering how often rental properties are mentioned on the ng, I
wonder how many owners know whether cleanup is covered by their
insurance co? In Indiana, the property cannot be sold or occupied until
it is clean )

http://www.in.gov/legislative/iac/T03180/A00010.PDF?
http://www.in.gov/idem/4178.htm

Without the meth lab problem, the property would be ideal for
remodelling; it is a stable neighborhood with a lot of rehab going on
and properties selling fairly quickly (

Considering all of the gov. agencies involved in the meth problem, it
has to be a hugely expensive problem....the local gendarmes grab a lab
about every week or so around here.

wrote

I dont know anything about meth labs, but I'm sure the police or other
law enforcement people have removed all the drugs and/or materials used
to make the stuff. That leaves nothing to cleanup [....]

Totally wrong.

"Oren" wrote

The OP _should_ skip this house and run away. Problems are more than
just removing visible chemical containers. Expensive too!

There are many homes in rural Oregon that have been torn down and 6 to 12
inches of topsoil removed in order to decontaminate the property. You're
absolutely right; it's expensive and there are plenty of problems with
reusing a former meth lab property.

On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 14:18:51 -0400, Frank
wrote:

If interested, here is a website outlining the problem.
http://www.kci.org/meth_info/meth_cleanup.htm


I hate the kind of chemo-phobia engendered by sites like this.

I'm a retired chemist, in his seventies, in good health. If chemicals
were this bad, I should have been long dead by now.

I was believing the meth lab dangers were more serious than what the
link indicated. The site seems to minimize the dangers, to a degree.
Though there are dangers related to health still exist. Odd there is
not yet a national policy for clean-up.

The meth is made with different chemicals.

http://www.kci.org/meth_info/sites/Riverside_County.htm

On 9/8/2012 12:05 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 08:37:23 -0400, Norminn
wrote:

I've been looking at homes for sale and came upon one that is condemned
because it was used as a meth lab. The little research I've done shows
that there are certified contractors who can inspect and correct the
conditions to make a structure habitable. Anyone have experience with
this? What chemicals remain in the structure, how to be sure it is
safe, etc? The house needs work, just from observation, but looks like
a good candidate for rehab.

I dont know anything about meth labs, but I'm sure the police or other
law enforcement people have removed all the drugs and/or materials used


A crime scene is a crime scene. They obtain evidence they need and run
yellow tape around the site. It is up to the owner to remedy the situation.

to make the stuff. That leaves nothing to cleanup, except the
reputation of the house. A good scrubbing, some paint, and friendliness
to the neighbors should do the job.

Just my opinion.

On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 14:50:11 -0400, Norminn
wrote:

Considering the community where this home is located, I have my doubts
that the lab existed on the property for very long.

I'm curious. How did you find out this house was a former meth lab?

Was it through real estate records, attached to the tile? For example
some locations require "water damage" and / or "mold" remediation's to
be recorded for future disclosure to a potential buyer.

"Oren" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 14:18:51 -0400, Frank
wrote:

If interested, here is a website outlining the problem.
http://www.kci.org/meth_info/meth_cleanup.htm


I hate the kind of chemo-phobia engendered by sites like this.

I'm a retired chemist, in his seventies, in good health. If chemicals
were this bad, I should have been long dead by now.

I was believing the meth lab dangers were more serious than what the
link indicated. The site seems to minimize the dangers, to a degree.
Though there are dangers related to health still exist.


I often wonder if things don't get blown all out of shape. If you read
some of the dangers of the broken CFL lamps , they would not be allowed in
the US either.

All the chemicals I see listed are in common use every day. Except the
lithium.

David Kaye wrote:

The OP _should_ skip this house and run away. Problems are more
than just removing visible chemical containers. Expensive too!

There are many homes in rural Oregon that have been torn down ...
it's expensive and there are plenty of problems with reusing a
former meth lab property.

Not just meth labs.

Homes use for marijuana grow-ops usually have substantial internal
dammage and problems.

And I'm sure that most buyers have access to police reports (because
police departments are monetizing their crime and incident data) and
buyers will check to see if the property has a history with the police.

Real estate disclosure laws in your area might compel you to make the
buyer aware of the home's history. Disclosure laws such as urea
formaldehyde insulation, asbestos (etc) are being updated to include
meth labs and marijana grow ops.

On 9/8/2012 4:28 PM, Oren wrote:
On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 14:50:11 -0400, Norminn
wrote:

Considering the community where this home is located, I have my doubts
that the lab existed on the property for very long.

I'm curious. How did you find out this house was a former meth lab?

Was it through real estate records, attached to the tile? For example
some locations require "water damage" and / or "mold" remediation's to
be recorded for future disclosure to a potential buyer.


Signs plastered on the front door: condemned, date, by co. health dept.
The sign has a checklist for the reasons for condemnation. I didn't
read all of the signs, as there were three others. May go back, just
out of curiosity. Will probably call PD or a town official whom I know
personally and who probably knows details.

I looked at the tax record, and taxes are up-to-date.

On 9/8/2012 4:30 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"Oren" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 14:18:51 -0400, Frank
wrote:

If interested, here is a website outlining the problem.
http://www.kci.org/meth_info/meth_cleanup.htm


I hate the kind of chemo-phobia engendered by sites like this.

I'm a retired chemist, in his seventies, in good health. If chemicals
were this bad, I should have been long dead by now.

I was believing the meth lab dangers were more serious than what the
link indicated. The site seems to minimize the dangers, to a degree.
Though there are dangers related to health still exist.


I often wonder if things don't get blown all out of shape. If you read
some of the dangers of the broken CFL lamps , they would not be allowed in
the US either.

All the chemicals I see listed are in common use every day. Except the
lithium.



I looked at a list of all of the chemicals on one website, and I have
used all of them (unmixed ). Before I narrowed down the search to my
state's regs, I saw several sites that suggest chemicals used for
clean-up. Bleach was one; Simple Green mentioned on several sites.

On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 18:25:43 -0400, Norminn
wrote:

On 9/8/2012 4:28 PM, Oren wrote:
On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 14:50:11 -0400, Norminn
wrote:

Considering the community where this home is located, I have my doubts
that the lab existed on the property for very long.

I'm curious. How did you find out this house was a former meth lab?

Was it through real estate records, attached to the tile? For example
some locations require "water damage" and / or "mold" remediation's to
be recorded for future disclosure to a potential buyer.


Signs plastered on the front door: condemned, date, by co. health dept.
The sign has a checklist for the reasons for condemnation. I didn't
read all of the signs, as there were three others. May go back, just
out of curiosity. Will probably call PD or a town official whom I know
personally and who probably knows details.

I looked at the tax record, and taxes are up-to-date.

Good idea. I'd ask if an arrest was made and if it turned out to be
the owner of the house. If not, will the owner tell you in advance the
reasons for condemnation (full disclosure). Test his honesty...

On 9/8/2012 3:45 PM, Oren wrote:
On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 14:18:51 -0400, Frank
wrote:

If interested, here is a website outlining the problem.
http://www.kci.org/meth_info/meth_cleanup.htm


I hate the kind of chemo-phobia engendered by sites like this.

I'm a retired chemist, in his seventies, in good health. If chemicals
were this bad, I should have been long dead by now.

I was believing the meth lab dangers were more serious than what the
link indicated. The site seems to minimize the dangers, to a degree.
Though there are dangers related to health still exist. Odd there is
not yet a national policy for clean-up.

The meth is made with different chemicals.

http://www.kci.org/meth_info/sites/Riverside_County.htm


Their clean-up advice is not that bad. What bothered me was getting the
meth down on a surface to a half millionth of a gram per square foot.
Everybody but the government knows toxicity is dose related.

"Norminn" wrote

I looked at a list of all of the chemicals on one website, and I have used
all of them (unmixed ).

On NPR there was a story about the man in Japan who had the misfortune of
being caught in both the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. He is
now in his 90s and shows no signs of cancer, leukemia, or anything else.
But that is still no reason to go poking around a nuclear reactor or a
nuclear waste dump.

In article ,
says...

I've been looking at homes for sale and came upon one that is condemned
because it was used as a meth lab. The little research I've done shows
that there are certified contractors who can inspect and correct the
conditions to make a structure habitable. Anyone have experience with
this? What chemicals remain in the structure, how to be sure it is
safe, etc? The house needs work, just from observation, but looks like
a good candidate for rehab.

Some homes have been torn down because it was less expensive to rebuild
than to do an environmental cleanup.

Thus the reason landlords do such extensive background checks these days
on potential tenants and anyone who will be living in a rental (criminal
background, renter check, driving record [DUI], credit, etc.)

Just mold cleanup can cost thousands of dollars. And I saw an asbestos
cleanup of a business cost $1M! (That is MILLION!)

They totally seal off the building so no air can escape, then go to work
on a building wearing space like suits, etc. Big bucks!!!

I would RUN from anything like that. Look at the following...

http://www.epa.gov/oem/meth_lab_guidelines.pdf

Norminn wrote:
I've been looking at homes for sale and came upon one that is
condemned because it was used as a meth lab. The little research
I've done shows that there are certified contractors who can inspect
and correct the conditions to make a structure habitable. Anyone
have experience with this? What chemicals remain in the structure,
how to be sure it is safe, etc? The house needs work, just from
observation, but looks like a good candidate for rehab.

Hmm. There's at least ONE group of people that wouldn't mind the house was a
former meth lab...

On Sep 8, 5:37*am, Norminn wrote:
I've been looking at homes for sale and came upon one that is condemned
because it was used as a meth lab. *The little research I've done shows
that there are certified contractors who can inspect and correct the
conditions to make a structure habitable. *Anyone have experience with
this? *What chemicals remain in the structure, how to be sure it is
safe, etc? *The house needs work, just from observation, but looks like
a good candidate for rehab.

Is there a residual odor? I've asked around [sheriff's dept,
incarcerated individuals, neighbors, etc] and no one will either
confirm, nor deny that a meth lab stinks and you can smell it in the
neighborhood.

I ask, because several times at night I've smelled a strange smell
lingering in the air and am VERY concerned.

On Sep 8, 12:35*pm, "David Kaye" wrote:
wrote

I dont know anything about meth labs, but I'm sure the police or other
law enforcement people have removed all the drugs and/or materials used
to make the stuff. *That leaves nothing to cleanup [....]

Totally wrong.

It's so wrong you can't even categorize it as to how wrong - off the
scale.

Time the cost of cleanup is factored in, they could give the house
away and it wouild still be a losing game.


Harry K

Harry K

On Saturday, September 8, 2012 7:37:19 AM UTC-5, NorMinn wrote:
I've been looking at homes for sale and came upon one that is condemned

because it was used as a meth lab. The little research I've done shows

that there are certified contractors who can inspect and correct the

conditions to make a structure habitable. Anyone have experience with

this? What chemicals remain in the structure, how to be sure it is

safe, etc? The house needs work, just from observation, but looks like

a good candidate for rehab.

If you are unsure, no amount of money to be made can make up for the risks for the future owners or tenents. Our economy if full of companies making money, by using unsafe, or unproven, yet epa approved, chemicals, and technologies. Just start reading MSDS(material Safety Data Sheets) just because everyone uses paint, and people aren't being carted off to the hospital in droves the day after they paint, doesn't mean we aren't already being carted off in droves with all kinds of cancers, and unheard of diseases.

http://www.safemoldsolutions.com/chapter8.php I am not saying that guy is the Master. but I do think there is a lot more to the unseen world of chemicals that only a small percentage of people know. We can only google and piece together, and then decide whatever we want to do, based on our preconceived notions, and financial situations. Personally, I would say do, about 10 times the research you think you should do. the general public, and even police officers aren't normally qualified to give you the kind of answers you want. Do you trust a energetic first responder to do open heart surgery in a pinch? Find someone who is qualified. We all like to save money, and there are sharks in suits out there. But a $2 tube of caulk is a $2 tube of caulk and a $4 tube of caulk is a $4 tube of caulk. Just about every tube of caulk I have bought on sale has failed within 6 months. You can get a good deal, through negotiation, that is great.But the quick road to success as we americans want it, leads to failure. There is something wonderful that happens to a person as they persevere, try, fall, get up and keep getting up.

I am not saying your trying the quick way. This topic is just something I lead things back to because it's one of my soap boxes.

Lastly, buy only zero-voc paint from a company that you can trust, that uses specific zero-voc tints. Normal tint, in zero- voc paint is.........
Sherwin Williams gladly gave me the MSDS sheets on their new zero-voc paint.. I have been having a tremendous difficulty getting the msds sheets on their TINT.
Getting the run around.

Can paint off gass toxic chemicals for up to 3 years after applying?

Well, if you don't know FOR SURE, Do we have any business using regular paint in homes and businesses, with our family's health at risk?

That's it. I am not done, but I am ending my post. have a great, prosperous, blessed week.

Gabriel DeLapp

"

I hate the kind of chemo-phobia engendered by sites like this.

I'm a retired chemist, in his seventies, in good health. If chemicals
were this bad, I should have been long dead by now.

In fact, my graduate adviser, in his eighties, just got out of jail last
year after conviction 20 years ago of running a meth lab.

I'm fairly sure you did not work with the chemicals you were using in
the same unsafe manner that cookers do in a meth lab. You were probably in
a laboratory with soapstone horizontal surfaces and some sort of local
ventilation.

On 9/9/2012 4:07 PM, Baron wrote:
"

I hate the kind of chemo-phobia engendered by sites like this.

I'm a retired chemist, in his seventies, in good health. If chemicals
were this bad, I should have been long dead by now.

In fact, my graduate adviser, in his eighties, just got out of jail last
year after conviction 20 years ago of running a meth lab.

I'm fairly sure you did not work with the chemicals you were using in
the same unsafe manner that cookers do in a meth lab. You were probably in
a laboratory with soapstone horizontal surfaces and some sort of local
ventilation.




Certainly but that does not mean I was not exposed to chemicals or never
had problems with them. Had my share of fires and explosions and
causing building evacuations.

As said elsewhere, toxicity is dose related. None of the meth chemicals
appear particularly toxic.

I've become a fan of the Breaking Bad series where a chemistry teacher
goes into the meth business. He does everything safely.

wrote in message
...
On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 08:37:23 -0400, Norminn
wrote:

I've been looking at homes for sale and came upon one that is condemned
because it was used as a meth lab. The little research I've done shows
that there are certified contractors who can inspect and correct the
conditions to make a structure habitable. Anyone have experience with
this? What chemicals remain in the structure, how to be sure it is
safe, etc? The house needs work, just from observation, but looks like
a good candidate for rehab.

I dont know anything about meth labs, but I'm sure the police or other
law enforcement people have removed all the drugs and/or materials used
to make the stuff. That leaves nothing to cleanup, except the
reputation of the house. A good scrubbing, some paint, and friendliness
to the neighbors should do the job.

Just my opinion.


I would not invest in this property unless you know how extensive the
contamination is.

The standards for cleanup are nothing like what would be required if the
meth were legally made in a laboratory. The problem you will be facing is
that the cookers were not concerned with confining their cook to one area of
the house. Waste products and spilled raw materials may be in all the
rooms. By "in all the rooms" I mean possibly spilled on the floors. A
house is filled with porous surfaces so a simple wipe down is not going to
do it. The various chemicals and solvents may have been absorbed into wood
or fiber (think drapes and carpeting) and may have become trapped in dead
spaces in the ventilation system and plumbing. Vapors could have traveled
up to the attic where they will slowly be released over time. I won't even
discuss what may have been poured into the soil around the house. Unless
every, and I do mean every, part of the house is scrubbed and treated with a
kill solution, you will never be sure that you have removed or destroyed any
residual raw materials including solvents, intermediates, or the meth
itself. If the contamination was localized to just one part of the house,
you MIGHT be able to have it decontaminated and sealed for less than it
takes to turn a profit upon flipping the house. Please keep in mind that
even after decontamination, which MUST be proven by proper testing, you may
still need to seal or encapsulate various parts of the structure. If this
doesn't work, that part of the structure must be removed and replaced. It
is equivalent to what is done in soil remediation. The soil is removed and
new fresh soil is used as the replacement.

Good Luck.

On 9/9/2012 3:06 PM, Harry K wrote:
On Sep 8, 12:35 pm, "David Kaye" wrote:
wrote

I dont know anything about meth labs, but I'm sure the police or other
law enforcement people have removed all the drugs and/or materials used
to make the stuff. That leaves nothing to cleanup [....]

Totally wrong.

It's so wrong you can't even categorize it as to how wrong - off the
scale.

Time the cost of cleanup is factored in, they could give the house
away and it wouild still be a losing game.


Harry K

Harry K


Well, sort of....several sites suggest first contacting police to get a
report of the conditions in the structure. They should have a handle on
how long it operated, and when labs are discovered it is a big fat deal
to get it closed, the chemicals disposed of, etc. I am certainly not
highly interested in buying a meth lab, but if the owner had a renter
that operated there a week or two, I'd be much more interested than if
it was a cabin in the boonies cooking meth for months or years. Also of
interest is the condition of the structure and how much the chems might
permeate. State regs here are very exact on sampling surfaces before
and after cleanup. There are industries in the area (do you know YOUR
neighborhood?) that pump out thousands of tons of chemicals that I
breathe every day, not to mention the neighbor's fireplace )

Ralph Mowery wrote:
"Oren" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 14:18:51 -0400, Frank
wrote:

If interested, here is a website outlining the problem.
http://www.kci.org/meth_info/meth_cleanup.htm

I hate the kind of chemo-phobia engendered by sites like this.

I'm a retired chemist, in his seventies, in good health. If chemicals
were this bad, I should have been long dead by now.
I was believing the meth lab dangers were more serious than what the
link indicated. The site seems to minimize the dangers, to a degree.
Though there are dangers related to health still exist.


I often wonder if things don't get blown all out of shape. If you read
some of the dangers of the broken CFL lamps , they would not be allowed in
the US either.

All the chemicals I see listed are in common use every day. Except the
lithium.



and what kind of battery does your laptop use?

well wear protective clothing, gut all the walls cielings etc....
remove everything to the sub floor, wash down all surfaces with kilz
or bin, then begin rebuild.

if your a smoker just do all of this without protection since you dont
care about your health and tobacco is one of the most lethal
substances know to man.......

Frank wrote:

I've become a fan of the Breaking Bad series where a chemistry teacher
goes into the meth business. He does everything safely.

I don't know that storing your profits in a $40/month storage locker is
"safe."

When Walt's wife showed him the stack of money, he asked. "How much is
here?" to which she replied: "I have no earthly idea."

I've fiddled with computing how much was there. First, I have to compute how
many individual bills could be stacked in a pile six feet wide, four feet
deep, and four feet high. Here's what I've got so far:

Each bill is about 6x2 inches. The pile, then, works out to be 12 bills wide
and 24 bills deep. Hence one "layer" contains 288 bills.

Assuming a ream of 24# paper is 3" thick, a stack 4 foot high would yield 16
reams or 8,000 bills high. Eight thousand layers times 288 bills per layer
equals 2,304,000 individual bills. So, at a minimum, assuming all the bills
were one dollar bills, the stack would amount to over $2 million. If each
bill had a denomination of $100, the White family is sitting on $200 million
bucks, all in a neat pile in a storage locker.

Robert Macy wrote:
On Sep 8, 5:37 am, Norminn wrote:
I've been looking at homes for sale and came upon one that is
condemned because it was used as a meth lab. The little research
I've done shows that there are certified contractors who can inspect
and correct the conditions to make a structure habitable. Anyone
have experience with this? What chemicals remain in the structure,
how to be sure it is safe, etc? The house needs work, just from
observation, but looks like a good candidate for rehab.

Is there a residual odor? I've asked around [sheriff's dept,
incarcerated individuals, neighbors, etc] and no one will either
confirm, nor deny that a meth lab stinks and you can smell it in the
neighborhood.

I ask, because several times at night I've smelled a strange smell
lingering in the air and am VERY concerned.

There is more than one way to cook meth, but if you see or smell these
chemicals together, they might indicate a meth lab.
-acetone
-isopropyl alcohol (rubbing alcohol or Iso-Heet fuel treatment)
-methyl alcohol (wood spirits or Heet fuel treatment)
-lye as in Red Devil lye
-crystal or liquid iodine
-mineral spirits
-bleach
-anhydrous ammonia
-sulfuric acid (car battery acid)
-hydrochloric acid (muriatic acid)
-matches/match box strikers (for red phosphorus)
-cold tablets containing ephedrine or pseudoephedrine
-white gas
-lithium (from lithium batteries)
-trichloroethane (solvent for gun cleaning)
-sodium metal or rock or table salt
-ether (starter fluid)
-toluene

http://chemistry.about.com/od/medica...Smell-Like.htm

On Sep 10, 5:21*am, "HeyBub" wrote:
Robert Macy wrote:
On Sep 8, 5:37 am, Norminn wrote:
I've been looking at homes for sale and came upon one that is
condemned because it was used as a meth lab. The little research
I've done shows that there are certified contractors who can inspect
and correct the conditions to make a structure habitable. Anyone
have experience with this? What chemicals remain in the structure,
how to be sure it is safe, etc? The house needs work, just from
observation, but looks like a good candidate for rehab.

Is there a residual odor? I've asked around [sheriff's dept,
incarcerated individuals, neighbors, etc] and no one will either
confirm, nor deny that a meth lab stinks and you can smell it in the
neighborhood.

I ask, because several times at night I've smelled a strange smell
lingering in the air and am VERY concerned.

There is more than one way to cook meth, but if you see or smell these
chemicals together, they might indicate a meth lab.
-acetone
-isopropyl alcohol (rubbing alcohol or Iso-Heet fuel treatment)
-methyl alcohol (wood spirits or Heet fuel treatment)
-lye as in Red Devil lye
-crystal or liquid iodine
-mineral spirits
-bleach
-anhydrous ammonia
-sulfuric acid (car battery acid)
-hydrochloric acid (muriatic acid)
-matches/match box strikers (for red phosphorus)
-cold tablets containing ephedrine or pseudoephedrine
-white gas
-lithium (from lithium batteries)
-trichloroethane (solvent for gun cleaning)
-sodium metal or rock or table salt
-ether (starter fluid)
-toluene

http://chemistry.about.com/od/medica...-A-Meth-Lab-Sm...

Thank you for excellent list.

We live in a very rural area of sparse residential housing. In other
words, no farming and no livestock. It's just that sometimes
throughout our valley I smell a 'sour milk' smell hanging in the air.
Only twice within a year, but little wind, so couldn't tell direction,
just a 'wet' sour milk odor.

Not having taken part in the drug era, I didn't know. ...maybe it's
something else.

On Sep 10, 8:21*am, "HeyBub" wrote:
Robert Macy wrote:
On Sep 8, 5:37 am, Norminn wrote:
I've been looking at homes for sale and came upon one that is
condemned because it was used as a meth lab. The little research
I've done shows that there are certified contractors who can inspect
and correct the conditions to make a structure habitable. Anyone
have experience with this? What chemicals remain in the structure,
how to be sure it is safe, etc? The house needs work, just from
observation, but looks like a good candidate for rehab.

Is there a residual odor? I've asked around [sheriff's dept,
incarcerated individuals, neighbors, etc] and no one will either
confirm, nor deny that a meth lab stinks and you can smell it in the
neighborhood.

I ask, because several times at night I've smelled a strange smell
lingering in the air and am VERY concerned.

There is more than one way to cook meth, but if you see or smell these
chemicals together, they might indicate a meth lab.
-acetone
-isopropyl alcohol (rubbing alcohol or Iso-Heet fuel treatment)
-methyl alcohol (wood spirits or Heet fuel treatment)
-lye as in Red Devil lye
-crystal or liquid iodine
-mineral spirits
-bleach
-anhydrous ammonia
-sulfuric acid (car battery acid)
-hydrochloric acid (muriatic acid)
-matches/match box strikers (for red phosphorus)
-cold tablets containing ephedrine or pseudoephedrine
-white gas
-lithium (from lithium batteries)
-trichloroethane (solvent for gun cleaning)
-sodium metal or rock or table salt
-ether (starter fluid)
-toluene

http://chemistry.about.com/od/medica...-A-Meth-Lab-Sm...

All of these will REQUIRE purchase with photo ID soon, the sudafed
already does

On Sep 9, 5:41*pm, Norminn wrote:
On 9/9/2012 3:06 PM, Harry K wrote:





On Sep 8, 12:35 pm, "David Kaye" wrote:
wrote

I dont know anything about meth labs, but I'm sure the police or other
law enforcement people have removed all the drugs and/or materials used
to make the stuff. *That leaves nothing to cleanup [....]

Totally wrong.

It's so wrong you can't even categorize it as to how wrong - off the
scale.

Time the cost of cleanup is factored in, they could give the house
away and it wouild still be a losing game.

Harry K

Harry K

Well, sort of....several sites suggest first contacting police to get a
report of the conditions in the structure. *They should have a handle on
how long it operated, and when labs are discovered it is a big fat deal
to get it closed, the chemicals disposed of, etc. *I am certainly not
highly interested in buying a meth lab, but if the owner had a renter
that operated there a week or two, I'd *be much more interested than if
it was a cabin in the boonies cooking meth for months or years. *Also of
interest is the condition of the structure and how much the chems might
permeate. *State regs here are very exact on sampling surfaces before
and after cleanup. *There are industries in the area (do you know YOUR
neighborhood?) that pump out thousands of tons of chemicals that I
breathe every day, not to mention the neighbor's fireplace )- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Besides the cleanup issue, there is the issue of what you have to
disclose to buyers when you go to flip it. Like, if it's been
cleaned up
to all state regulations, procedures, etc, do you then still have to
disclose to buyers that it was a meth lab? My guess would be that
there might be laws specific to the state that might address that
issue
and that absent that, it's still to me of such major significance that
I
think you should disclose it. I could think of hypothetical cases
where
even if it's not required, if you didn't dsiclose and something were
missed
in the cleanup, it could come back to bite you.

And then having disclosed it, the next question is how do you figure
what impact that is going to have on the price? I'm not particularly
afraid of chemicals, but if there are similar houses selling for X,
this
one would have to be at a substantial discount to interest me. So,
you have multiple unknowns. How much it will cost to clean it up
and what the house will later sell for. I would not get involved in
this unless there was plenty of margin to cover all the above.

"Frank" wrote in message
...
On 9/9/2012 4:07 PM, Baron wrote:
"

I hate the kind of chemo-phobia engendered by sites like this.

I'm a retired chemist, in his seventies, in good health. If chemicals
were this bad, I should have been long dead by now.

In fact, my graduate adviser, in his eighties, just got out of jail last
year after conviction 20 years ago of running a meth lab.

I'm fairly sure you did not work with the chemicals you were using
in
the same unsafe manner that cookers do in a meth lab. You were probably
in
a laboratory with soapstone horizontal surfaces and some sort of local
ventilation.




Certainly but that does not mean I was not exposed to chemicals or never
had problems with them. Had my share of fires and explosions and causing
building evacuations.

As said elsewhere, toxicity is dose related. None of the meth chemicals
appear particularly toxic.

I've become a fan of the Breaking Bad series where a chemistry teacher
goes into the meth business. He does everything safely.

You are correct. Acute toxicity is dose related. Chronic toxicity is
also dose related but requires much lower exposure levels. I would be
concerned with chronic exposure. Your own experience, while valid, is just
a single data point. It is anecdotal experience.

As for meth chemicals not being particularly toxic, it all depends on
what synthesis and conditions are being used. Off the top of my head, the
more common clandestine approaches use halogenated hydrocarbons and
anhydrous ammonia. I classify these as toxic, the ammonia acutely so.

I too am a fan of Breaking Bad. I would not hold up the lead character,
Walter White, as a typical meth cooker. Jessie is closer to reality. I
also disagree with your assessment that Walt does everything safely. He
does things in a way that minimizes the risk to himself, not to the
surroundings. His waste is obviously mislabeled and there is no reason for
him to minimize the release of vapors.

clipped

Besides the cleanup issue, there is the issue of what you have to
disclose to buyers when you go to flip it. Like, if it's been
cleaned up
to all state regulations, procedures, etc, do you then still have to
disclose to buyers that it was a meth lab? My guess would be that
there might be laws specific to the state that might address that
issue
and that absent that, it's still to me of such major significance that
I
think you should disclose it. I could think of hypothetical cases
where
even if it's not required, if you didn't dsiclose and something were
missed
in the cleanup, it could come back to bite you.

And then having disclosed it, the next question is how do you figure
what impact that is going to have on the price? I'm not particularly
afraid of chemicals, but if there are similar houses selling for X,
this
one would have to be at a substantial discount to interest me. So,
you have multiple unknowns. How much it will cost to clean it up
and what the house will later sell for. I would not get involved in
this unless there was plenty of margin to cover all the above.


If I did decide to purchase, I would be most interested (at the outset)
in learning the conditions found when the cops went in...there is a
whole special task force dealing with disposal. Considering the state
statutes, the residue before and after cleanup would be next. I am not
by any means leaning toward this property, but without the meth lab
problem, it would be an ideal cheap property to remodel extensively
(good bones, good stable neighborhood, increasing prop. values;
properties are moving here). That said, it had never before occurred to
me that a home might have once been contaminated with drugs.

I've read various descriptions of the meth lab odor, and cat urine is
mentioned....a former neighbor who had extensive knowledge (and who is
probably dead) said it was just a sickening sweet smell. I've had
neighbors who dealt in coke, one of whom died at a young age of heart
attack, and now I wonder what the danger of coke residue is. Come to
think of it, mebbe that has something to do with the "autism epidemic".
I put that in quotes because I expect that autism is pretty badly
overdiagnosed for access to social services. Coke probably vastly more
pervasive than meth until fairly recently.