Recently my HVAC compressor unit was stolen form a vacation home, soon to be permanent residence. I was thinking about upgrading to geothermal given that there are already 2 400 ft water wells on the property. I am trying to find some meaningful info but so far all I can find is sales pitches even when talking to an installer. Current HVAC was a 4 ton heat pump about 5 years old. Air handler is still in good condition. I am looking for info that will let me know whether or not I can use the wells and/ or the existing air handler.

TIA
Jimmie

On Jul 1, 5:36*pm, JIMMIE wrote:
Recently *my HVAC compressor unit was stolen form a vacation home, soon to be permanent residence. *I was thinking about upgrading to geothermal given that there are already 2 400 ft water wells on the property. I am trying to find some meaningful info but so far all I can find is sales pitches even when talking to an installer. Current HVAC was a 4 ton heat pump about 5 years old. Air handler is still in good condition. I am looking for info that will let me know whether or not I can use the wells and/ or the existing air handler.

TIA
Jimmie

A neighbour of mine has one of these. For heating but cooling is also
applicable.
You need to look into the cost of pumping the water (His downfall.)
His are only about 40 feet deep.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geother...mal_heat_pumps

It's not the depth of the well that counts, its the depth of the water
surface.

On Jul 1, 12:36*pm, JIMMIE wrote:
Recently *my HVAC compressor unit was stolen form a vacation home, soon to be permanent residence. *I was thinking about upgrading to geothermal given that there are already 2 400 ft water wells on the property. I am trying to find some meaningful info but so far all I can find is sales pitches even when talking to an installer. Current HVAC was a 4 ton heat pump about 5 years old. Air handler is still in good condition. I am looking for info that will let me know whether or not I can use the wells and/ or the existing air handler.

TIA
Jimmie

Your two wells are nice and all but a ground source geothermal
system is typically spread out over a larger area with coiled
loops of tubing which are buried (larger ground contact area)
rather than narrow wells with limited ground contact area...

They require a lot of earth moving to install and the size of
a ground contact heat exchanger in your tonnage would be
like digging for a septic system leaching field... Then you
have all the associated pumping and heat exchanging
machinery which are quite expensive...

Perhaps you should look at either replacing the recently
stolen components with newer more energy efficient ones
as the coils for a geothermal system don't use compressed
refrigerant gas but circulate chilled water which would mean
you can not reuse the existing coil designed for DX gas
type cooling... Or if you really want to go geothermal
consult an HVAC design engineer, not an installer, to
see just how much more such a system would cost above
and beyond your present guesstimates to see if such
fits in with your financial realities...

If you are looking at trying to be more environmentally
friendly there are other options such as packaged
chiller units with small sealed R407c refrigeration cycles
and are made by Multiaqua or gas fired chiller units which
use an ammonia refrigeration cycle R717 and therefore have
no ozone depleting CFCs which could escape made by
Robur...

It is all a matter of cost and choice, but as far as
geothermal goes you are way off the track if you
are thinking you can use any existing wells for
a ground source system so you might want to
consider other options or realize the actual cost
of going geothermal is much higher than you
are presently assuming...

On 7/1/2012 1:18 PM, Evan wrote:
....

Your two wells are nice and all but a ground source geothermal
system is typically spread out over a larger area with coiled
loops of tubing which are buried (larger ground contact area)
rather than narrow wells with limited ground contact area...
....

Both are quite common installations as well as buried loop in pond/lake
if available of sufficient depth.

It all depends on the locale and his problem is purely one of well capacity.

When we installed the WaterFurnace in TN, they were _extremely_ helpful
and knowledgable in design and sizing from manufacturer, not relying
totally on the local dealer/installer...

--

JIMMIE (somewhere in north or south carolina) wrote:

Recently my HVAC compressor unit was stolen form a vacation home

Can you hear me laughing from up here?

Evan wrote:
On Jul 1, 12:36 pm, JIMMIE wrote:
Recently my HVAC compressor unit was stolen form a vacation home,
soon to be permanent residence. I was thinking about upgrading to
geothermal given that there are already 2 400 ft water wells on the
property. I am trying to find some meaningful info but so far all I
can find is sales pitches even when talking to an installer. Current
HVAC was a 4 ton heat pump about 5 years old. Air handler is still
in good condition. I am looking for info that will let me know
whether or not I can use the wells and/ or the existing air handler.

TIA
Jimmie

Your two wells are nice and all but a ground source geothermal
system is typically spread out over a larger area with coiled
loops of tubing which are buried (larger ground contact area)
rather than narrow wells with limited ground contact area...

Geothernal heat pumps can use water sources from wells, lakes, streams, or
buried tubes. The limting factor would be the volume and temperature of the
supplied water. Buried tubes are only one possibility. They may be more common,
but that is just because that is simpler for most sites.

The well provides way more ground contact area in many cases, since it accesses
a significant area of the water table. They do require a significant volume of
well water. (Remember - two wells - water from one, going to the other)

On 7/1/2012 9:36 AM, JIMMIE wrote:
Recently my HVAC compressor unit was stolen form a vacation home, soon to be permanent residence. I was thinking about upgrading to geothermal given that there are already 2 400 ft water wells on the property. I am trying to find some meaningful info but so far all I can find is sales pitches even when talking to an installer. Current HVAC was a 4 ton heat pump about 5 years old. Air handler is still in good condition. I am looking for info that will let me know whether or not I can use the wells and/ or the existing air handler.

TIA
Jimmie

There's a lot of interesting information in the forum at
http://ecorenovator.org

On 7/1/2012 2:18 PM, Evan wrote:
On Jul 1, 12:36 pm, JIMMIE wrote:
Recently my HVAC compressor unit was stolen form a vacation home, soon to be permanent residence. I was thinking about upgrading to geothermal given that there are already 2 400 ft water wells on the property. I am trying to find some meaningful info but so far all I can find is sales pitches even when talking to an installer. Current HVAC was a 4 ton heat pump about 5 years old. Air handler is still in good condition. I am looking for info that will let me know whether or not I can use the wells and/ or the existing air handler.

TIA
Jimmie

Your two wells are nice and all but a ground source geothermal
system is typically spread out over a larger area with coiled
loops of tubing which are buried (larger ground contact area)
rather than narrow wells with limited ground contact area...


Wells are also pretty common. Could be they are a good fit if you don't
have a lot of land to bury the tubing.


They require a lot of earth moving to install and the size of
a ground contact heat exchanger in your tonnage would be
like digging for a septic system leaching field... Then you
have all the associated pumping and heat exchanging
machinery which are quite expensive...

Perhaps you should look at either replacing the recently
stolen components with newer more energy efficient ones
as the coils for a geothermal system don't use compressed
refrigerant gas but circulate chilled water which would mean
you can not reuse the existing coil designed for DX gas
type cooling... Or if you really want to go geothermal
consult an HVAC design engineer, not an installer, to
see just how much more such a system would cost above
and beyond your present guesstimates to see if such
fits in with your financial realities...

If you are looking at trying to be more environmentally
friendly there are other options such as packaged
chiller units with small sealed R407c refrigeration cycles
and are made by Multiaqua or gas fired chiller units which
use an ammonia refrigeration cycle R717 and therefore have
no ozone depleting CFCs which could escape made by
Robur...

It is all a matter of cost and choice, but as far as
geothermal goes you are way off the track if you
are thinking you can use any existing wells for
a ground source system so you might want to
consider other options or realize the actual cost
of going geothermal is much higher than you
are presently assuming...

On 7/1/2012 3:16 PM, Bob F wrote:
Evan wrote:
On Jul 1, 12:36 pm, JIMMIE wrote:
Recently my HVAC compressor unit was stolen form a vacation home,
soon to be permanent residence. I was thinking about upgrading to
geothermal given that there are already 2 400 ft water wells on the
property. I am trying to find some meaningful info but so far all I
can find is sales pitches even when talking to an installer. Current
HVAC was a 4 ton heat pump about 5 years old. Air handler is still
in good condition. I am looking for info that will let me know
whether or not I can use the wells and/ or the existing air handler.

TIA
Jimmie

Your two wells are nice and all but a ground source geothermal
system is typically spread out over a larger area with coiled
loops of tubing which are buried (larger ground contact area)
rather than narrow wells with limited ground contact area...

Geothernal heat pumps can use water sources from wells, lakes, streams, or
buried tubes. The limting factor would be the volume and temperature of the
supplied water. Buried tubes are only one possibility. They may be more common,
but that is just because that is simpler for most sites.

The well provides way more ground contact area in many cases, since it accesses
a significant area of the water table. They do require a significant volume of
well water. (Remember - two wells - water from one, going to the other)



A friend had one installed last year. We thought they were going to do
as you described. They actually drilled a couple wells and dropped a
loop of tubing into each well. So his "side" is actually a closed loop.

George wrote:
On 7/1/2012 3:16 PM, Bob F wrote:
Evan wrote:
On Jul 1, 12:36 pm, JIMMIE wrote:
Recently my HVAC compressor unit was stolen form a vacation home,
soon to be permanent residence. I was thinking about upgrading to
geothermal given that there are already 2 400 ft water wells on the
property. I am trying to find some meaningful info but so far all I
can find is sales pitches even when talking to an installer.
Current HVAC was a 4 ton heat pump about 5 years old. Air handler
is still in good condition. I am looking for info that will let me
know whether or not I can use the wells and/ or the existing air
handler. TIA
Jimmie

Your two wells are nice and all but a ground source geothermal
system is typically spread out over a larger area with coiled
loops of tubing which are buried (larger ground contact area)
rather than narrow wells with limited ground contact area...

Geothernal heat pumps can use water sources from wells, lakes,
streams, or buried tubes. The limting factor would be the volume and
temperature of the supplied water. Buried tubes are only one
possibility. They may be more common, but that is just because that
is simpler for most sites. The well provides way more ground contact area in
many cases, since
it accesses a significant area of the water table. They do require a
significant volume of well water. (Remember - two wells - water from
one, going to the other)
A friend had one installed last year. We thought they were going to do
as you described. They actually drilled a couple wells and dropped a
loop of tubing into each well. So his "side" is actually a closed
loop.

That's done too. It doesn't require ground water, just deep enough hole(s).
Basically, it is duplicating the buried tubes vertically.

On Jul 1, 3:56*pm, George wrote:
On 7/1/2012 2:18 PM, Evan wrote:

On Jul 1, 12:36 pm, JIMMIE wrote:
Recently *my HVAC compressor unit was stolen form a vacation home, soon to be permanent residence. *I was thinking about upgrading to geothermal given that there are already 2 400 ft water wells on the property. I am trying to find some meaningful info but so far all I can find is sales pitches even when talking to an installer. Current HVAC was a 4 ton heat pump about 5 years old. Air handler is still in good condition. I am looking for info that will let me know whether or not I can use the wells and/ or the existing air handler.

TIA
Jimmie

Your two wells are nice and all but a ground source geothermal
system is typically spread out over a larger area with coiled
loops of tubing which are buried (larger ground contact area)
rather than narrow wells with limited *ground contact area...

Wells are also pretty common. Could be they are a good fit if you don't
have a lot of land to bury the tubing.





They require a lot of earth moving to install and the size of
a ground contact heat exchanger in your tonnage would be
like digging for a septic system leaching field... *Then you
have all the associated pumping and heat exchanging
machinery which are quite expensive...

Perhaps you should look at either replacing the recently
stolen components with newer more energy efficient ones
as the coils for a geothermal system don't use compressed
refrigerant gas but circulate chilled water which would mean
you can not reuse the existing coil designed for DX gas
type cooling... *Or if you really want to go geothermal
consult an HVAC design engineer, not an installer, to
see just how much more such a system would cost above
and beyond your present guesstimates to see if such
fits in with your financial realities...

If you are looking at trying to be more environmentally
friendly there are other options such as packaged
chiller units with small sealed R407c refrigeration cycles
and are made by Multiaqua or gas fired chiller units which
use an ammonia refrigeration cycle R717 and therefore have
no ozone depleting CFCs which could escape made by
Robur...

It is all a matter of cost and choice, but as far as
geothermal goes you are way off the track if you
are thinking you can use any existing wells for
a ground source system so you might want to
consider other options or realize the actual cost
of going geothermal is much higher than you
are presently assuming...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If you have a few loops down in the well, it will heat up the water
whenever the AC is on. Can you use warmed water for the supply for
the household water or will you have another well drilled to supply
the household water? If the well water doesn't remain cool enough,
youmay have to pump some out periodically, or else continually drain a
little water, somehow you need to keep the water cool or the heat
exchanger is wating its time and electricity.

JIMMIE wrote:
Recently my HVAC compressor unit was stolen form a vacation home,
soon to be permanent residence. I was thinking about upgrading to
geothermal given that there are already 2 400 ft water wells on the
property. I am trying to find some meaningful info but so far all I
can find is sales pitches even when talking to an installer. Current
HVAC was a 4 ton heat pump about 5 years old. Air handler is still in
good condition. I am looking for info that will let me know whether
or not I can use the wells and/ or the existing air handler.

TIA


http://www.geokiss.com/consumer-info...tPumpsWork.pdf

On Sun, 01 Jul 2012 15:08:17 -0400, Home Guy wrote:

JIMMIE (somewhere in north or south carolina) wrote:

Recently my HVAC compressor unit was stolen form a vacation home

Can you hear me laughing from up here?

What is funnier and really worth a laugh is when you get knocked of
your pedestal.

How's that "marshall law" and that Holder conviction working out for
you?

You never answered me on how you get your sheep to push back.

But no. You didn't offer the OP some sane advice. This is how you and
harry operate.

On Sunday, July 1, 2012 4:59:39 PM UTC-4, George wrote:
On 7/1/2012 3:16 PM, Bob F wrote:
Evan wrote:
On Jul 1, 12:36 pm, JIMMIE wrote:
Recently my HVAC compressor unit was stolen form a vacation home,
soon to be permanent residence. I was thinking about upgrading to
geothermal given that there are already 2 400 ft water wells on the
property. I am trying to find some meaningful info but so far all I
can find is sales pitches even when talking to an installer. Current
HVAC was a 4 ton heat pump about 5 years old. Air handler is still
in good condition. I am looking for info that will let me know
whether or not I can use the wells and/ or the existing air handler.

TIA
Jimmie

Your two wells are nice and all but a ground source geothermal
system is typically spread out over a larger area with coiled
loops of tubing which are buried (larger ground contact area)
rather than narrow wells with limited ground contact area...

Geothernal heat pumps can use water sources from wells, lakes, streams, or
buried tubes. The limting factor would be the volume and temperature of the
supplied water. Buried tubes are only one possibility. They may be more common,
but that is just because that is simpler for most sites.

The well provides way more ground contact area in many cases, since it accesses
a significant area of the water table. They do require a significant volume of
well water. (Remember - two wells - water from one, going to the other)



A friend had one installed last year. We thought they were going to do
as you described. They actually drilled a couple wells and dropped a
loop of tubing into each well. So his "side" is actually a closed loop.

The closed loop system was what I was aiming for although I had considered pumping water well to well. Usually there is at least 300 ft of water in the wells. Information is a little hard to come by. Conceptually this doent seem like it should be much more complicated than a regular heat pump with the air to freon heat exchanger replace with a liquid to freon heat exchanger and replacing the fan with a circulating pump. How far off base am I? Would I need multiple loops in the wells or just one. What type of pipe is used to make the loops in a vertical system.

30 years ago I saw a home brewed system. The guy made his own water to refrigerant heat exchanger by passing water through every third turn of a regular air to freon device. He was fortunate to have an artisan well on his catfish farm for a water supply. This design also allowed him to use the fan on the outside coils if needed.

Jimmie

On Sunday, July 1, 2012 3:08:17 PM UTC-4, Home Guy wrote:
JIMMIE (somewhere in north or south carolina) wrote:

Recently my HVAC compressor unit was stolen form a vacation home

Can you hear me laughing from up here?

NO SIR, lets keep it that way.

JIMMIE wrote:
On Sunday, July 1, 2012 4:59:39 PM UTC-4, George wrote:
On 7/1/2012 3:16 PM, Bob F wrote:
Evan wrote:
On Jul 1, 12:36 pm, JIMMIE wrote:
Recently my HVAC compressor unit was stolen form a vacation home,
soon to be permanent residence. I was thinking about upgrading to
geothermal given that there are already 2 400 ft water wells on
the property. I am trying to find some meaningful info but so far
all I can find is sales pitches even when talking to an
installer. Current HVAC was a 4 ton heat pump about 5 years old.
Air handler is still in good condition. I am looking for info
that will let me know whether or not I can use the wells and/ or
the existing air handler.

TIA
Jimmie

Your two wells are nice and all but a ground source geothermal
system is typically spread out over a larger area with coiled
loops of tubing which are buried (larger ground contact area)
rather than narrow wells with limited ground contact area...

Geothernal heat pumps can use water sources from wells, lakes,
streams, or buried tubes. The limting factor would be the volume
and temperature of the supplied water. Buried tubes are only one
possibility. They may be more common, but that is just because that
is simpler for most sites.

The well provides way more ground contact area in many cases, since
it accesses a significant area of the water table. They do require
a significant volume of well water. (Remember - two wells - water
from one, going to the other)



A friend had one installed last year. We thought they were going to
do as you described. They actually drilled a couple wells and
dropped a loop of tubing into each well. So his "side" is actually a
closed loop.

The closed loop system was what I was aiming for although I had
considered pumping water well to well. Usually there is at least 300
ft of water in the wells. Information is a little hard to come by.
Conceptually this doent seem like it should be much more complicated
than a regular heat pump with the air to freon heat exchanger replace
with a liquid to freon heat exchanger and replacing the fan with a
circulating pump. How far off base am I? Would I need multiple loops
in the wells or just one. What type of pipe is used to make the loops
in a vertical system.

I'm no expert, but I believe black poly pipe is common. To calculate the amount
of pipe needed you need to know how deeply into the water table you can run the
loops (above the pump?) and how many "tons" or BTUs the system is. If these
wells are also for your water, you must be sure you don't freeze the well, I
would think.

The below says 300 feet of "wetted" pipe /ton in OK.
http://www.wellowner2.org/2009/index...ling&Itemid=51

They have other info on that site also
http://www.wellowner2.org/2009/index...d=51&Itemid=51

Having coils above the pumps would probably mean greatly increased cost to
replace a pump in the future.

I'm sure you can find more about calculating the pipe requirement with google.



30 years ago I saw a home brewed system. The guy made his own water
to refrigerant heat exchanger by passing water through every third
turn of a regular air to freon device. He was fortunate to have an
artisan well on his catfish farm for a water supply. This design also
allowed him to use the fan on the outside coils if needed.

Jimmie

On Jul 1, 7:18*pm, Evan wrote:
On Jul 1, 12:36*pm, JIMMIE wrote:

Recently *my HVAC compressor unit was stolen form a vacation home, soon to be permanent residence. *I was thinking about upgrading to geothermal given that there are already 2 400 ft water wells on the property. I am trying to find some meaningful info but so far all I can find is sales pitches even when talking to an installer. Current HVAC was a 4 ton heat pump about 5 years old. Air handler is still in good condition. I am looking for info that will let me know whether or not I can use the wells and/ or the existing air handler.

TIA
Jimmie

Your two wells are nice and all but a ground source geothermal
system is typically spread out over a larger area with coiled
loops of tubing which are buried (larger ground contact area)
rather than narrow wells with limited *ground contact area...

They require a lot of earth moving to install and the size of
a ground contact heat exchanger in your tonnage would be
like digging for a septic system leaching field... *Then you
have all the associated pumping and heat exchanging
machinery which are quite expensive...

Perhaps you should look at either replacing the recently
stolen components with newer more energy efficient ones
as the coils for a geothermal system don't use compressed
refrigerant gas but circulate chilled water which would mean
you can not reuse the existing coil designed for DX gas
type cooling... *Or if you really want to go geothermal
consult an HVAC design engineer, not an installer, to
see just how much more such a system would cost above
and beyond your present guesstimates to see if such
fits in with your financial realities...

If you are looking at trying to be more environmentally
friendly there are other options such as packaged
chiller units with small sealed R407c refrigeration cycles
and are made by Multiaqua or gas fired chiller units which
use an ammonia refrigeration cycle R717 and therefore have
no ozone depleting CFCs which could escape made by
Robur...

It is all a matter of cost and choice, but as far as
geothermal goes you are way off the track if you
are thinking you can use any existing wells for
a ground source system so you might want to
consider other options or realize the actual cost
of going geothermal is much higher than you
are presently assuming...

What nonsense you talk. There are bore hole systems, trench sytems
and surface water systems. Depends on your location and the climate.

On Jul 1, 8:08*pm, Home Guy wrote:
JIMMIE (somewhere in north or south carolina) wrote:

Recently my HVAC compressor unit was stolen form a vacation home

Can you hear me laughing from up here?

Was it you stole it?

On Jul 2, 1:21*am, JIMMIE wrote:
On Sunday, July 1, 2012 4:59:39 PM UTC-4, George wrote:
On 7/1/2012 3:16 PM, Bob F wrote:
Evan wrote:
On Jul 1, 12:36 pm, JIMMIE wrote:
Recently my HVAC compressor unit was stolen form a vacation home,
soon to be permanent residence. I was thinking about upgrading to
geothermal given that there are already 2 400 ft water wells on the
property. I am trying to find some meaningful info but so far all I
can find is sales pitches even when talking to an installer. Current
HVAC was a 4 ton heat pump about 5 years old. Air handler is still
in good condition. I am looking for info that will let me know
whether or not I can use the wells and/ or the existing air handler..

TIA
Jimmie

Your two wells are nice and all but a ground source geothermal
system is typically spread out over a larger area with coiled
loops of tubing which are buried (larger ground contact area)
rather than narrow wells with limited *ground contact area...

Geothernal heat pumps can use water sources from wells, lakes, streams, or
buried tubes. The limting factor would be the volume and temperature of the
supplied water. Buried tubes are only one possibility. They may be more common,
but that is just because that is simpler for most sites.

The well provides way more ground contact area in many cases, since it accesses
a significant area of the water table. They do require a significant volume of
well water. (Remember - two wells - water from one, going to the other)

A friend had one installed last year. We thought they were going to do
as you described. They actually drilled a couple wells and dropped a
loop of tubing into each well. So his "side" is actually a closed loop.

The closed loop system was what I was aiming for although I had considered pumping water well to well. Usually there is at least 300 ft of water in the wells. Information is a little hard to come by. Conceptually this doent seem like it should be much more complicated than a regular heat pump with the air to freon heat exchanger replace with a liquid to freon heat exchanger and replacing the fan with a circulating pump. How far off base am I? Would I need multiple loops in the wells or just one. What type of pipe is used to make the loops in a vertical system.

30 years ago I saw a home brewed system. The guy made his own water to refrigerant heat exchanger by passing water through every third turn of a regular air to freon device. He was fortunate to have an artisan well on his catfish farm for a water supply. This design also allowed him to use the fan on the outside coils if needed.

Jimmie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There are two bore hole systems. One is with a single dry hole with a
loop of pipe concreted in. (Special heat conductive concrete.)

The other has two wells, one pumping out and the other returning. They
need to be as far apart as possible.. But the water pumping costs are
the killer, esp. if the wells are deep.

On Jul 1, 12:36*pm, JIMMIE wrote:

Recently *my HVAC compressor unit was stolen form a vacation home, soon to be permanent residence. *I was thinking about upgrading to geothermal given that there are already 2 400 ft water wells on the property. I am trying to find some meaningful info but so far all I can find is sales pitches even when talking to an installer.

That's because any meaningful info (i.e. total life cycle cost) of a
ground source heat pump would indicate that it isn't generally cost
effective when compared to typical alternatives.

Think about it: If there was a lot of cost-data supporting the
purchase, wouldn't the sales people be presenting it?

harry wrote:

Recently my HVAC compressor unit was stolen form a vacation home

Can you hear me laughing from up here?

Was it you stole it?

Hah.

No, there are plenty of americans who make their living from urban
mining.

Urban mining - a term created to describe the uniquely American
phenomena of stealing and stripping anything made of metal from public
and private infrastructure. An activity that is being practiced by more
and more americans as the US reverts to a hunter-gatherer society caused
by economic collapse.

Air conditioners are a favorite target. As illustrated by the OP.

Now can you hear me laughing?

Can you hear me now?

Hey JIMMIE - you realize that what-ever you replace it with, it too will
be stolen at some point...

Oren wrote:

Can you hear me laughing from up here?

What is funnier and really worth a laugh is when you get knocked of
your pedestal.

How's that "marshall law"

Wow, nailing me for a spelling error. That's lame.

and that Holder conviction working out for you?

The US congress declared him guilty of criminal contempt of congress.
That is a conviction in as far as the congress is concerned. Or don't
you understand that?

And why are you fighting the exact terminology here? Are you trying to
defend Holder? Are you trying to say that what he did was no
transgression against your congress?

You never answered me on how you get your sheep to push back.

The only sheep around here are the people of the united states. And
they apparently never push back against the theft of their freedom and
liberty by their so-called elected and appointed representatives.

This is how you and harry operate.

I'd lay off the bath salts if I were you.

On Mon, 02 Jul 2012 04:56:20 -0500, CRNG wrote:

On Jul 1, 12:36*pm, JIMMIE wrote:

Recently *my HVAC compressor unit was stolen form a vacation home, soon to be permanent residence. *I was thinking about upgrading to geothermal given that there are already 2 400 ft water wells on the property. I am trying to find some meaningful info but so far all I can find is sales pitches even when talking to an installer.

That's because any meaningful info (i.e. total life cycle cost) of a
ground source heat pump would indicate that it isn't generally cost
effective when compared to typical alternatives.

Think about it: If there was a lot of cost-data supporting the
purchase, wouldn't the sales people be presenting it?

Absolutely. ...and if they do present the numbers, be very suspicious of
them. Make damned sure you understand the numbers.

I had a company try to sell me a solar hot-water system 30ish years ago (I
doubt one of them is in use today). It took me a few minutes to figure out
how it "paid for itself", until it suddenly dawned on me; they were double
counting the tax credits. Once as a deduction from the cost and they added it
in again as "opportunity lost" ("free money" I wouldn't get).

On Mon, 02 Jul 2012 08:31:46 -0400, Home Guy wrote:

Oren wrote:

Can you hear me laughing from up here?

What is funnier and really worth a laugh is when you get knocked of
your pedestal.

How's that "marshall law"

Wow, nailing me for a spelling error. That's lame.

I'ts *not* a "spelling error". It's the wrong word; illiteracy.

and that Holder conviction working out for you?

The US congress declared him guilty of criminal contempt of congress.
That is a conviction in as far as the congress is concerned. Or don't
you understand that?

You're wrong (wow! now that's unusual - not). The Congress cannot find anyone
"guilty" of anything. He was cited for the infraction. From there it has to
go to a court for trial.

And why are you fighting the exact terminology here? Are you trying to
defend Holder? Are you trying to say that what he did was no
transgression against your congress?

No, just pointing out that you have no idea what you're talking about, as
usual.

You never answered me on how you get your sheep to push back.

The only sheep around here are the people of the united states. And
they apparently never push back against the theft of their freedom and
liberty by their so-called elected and appointed representatives.

Clueless as ever. If we're sheep, and you're living off our backside, that
makes you... Let me think...

This is how you and harry operate.

I'd lay off the bath salts if I were you.

Thank the Lord, we're not you. I'd have to kill myself if I woke up a
two-faced Canuckistani.

Home Guy wrote:
Oren wrote:

Can you hear me laughing from up here?

What is funnier and really worth a laugh is when you get knocked of
your pedestal.

How's that "marshall law"

Wow, nailing me for a spelling error. That's lame.

and that Holder conviction working out for you?

The US congress declared him guilty of criminal contempt of congress.
That is a conviction in as far as the congress is concerned. Or don't
you understand that?

What they did was basically to bring a charge against him. Now it is up to him
to decide if his office will choose to prosecute him.

This whole thing is nothing but a political stunt by the Repubs. The evidence is
that the whole thing was cause by lax Arizona gun laws that prevented the feds
from being able to do anything about the gun sales. The Arizona prosecuters just
couldn't prosecute, because Arizona laws did not make the sales illegal.

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.co...furious-truth/

Home Guy wrote:
harry wrote:

Recently my HVAC compressor unit was stolen form a vacation home

Can you hear me laughing from up here?

Was it you stole it?

Hah.

No, there are plenty of americans who make their living from urban
mining.

Urban mining - a term created to describe the uniquely American
phenomena of stealing and stripping anything made of metal from public
and private infrastructure. An activity that is being practiced by
more and more americans as the US reverts to a hunter-gatherer
society caused by economic collapse.

Air conditioners are a favorite target. As illustrated by the OP.

Now can you hear me laughing?

Can you hear me now?

Hey JIMMIE - you realize that what-ever you replace it with, it too
will be stolen at some point...

A water based heat pump will likely be all indoors, so that is very unlikely.

On Jul 1, 5:50*pm, "hr(bob) "
wrote:
On Jul 1, 3:56*pm, George wrote:









On 7/1/2012 2:18 PM, Evan wrote:

On Jul 1, 12:36 pm, JIMMIE wrote:
Recently *my HVAC compressor unit was stolen form a vacation home, soon to be permanent residence. *I was thinking about upgrading to geothermal given that there are already 2 400 ft water wells on the property. I am trying to find some meaningful info but so far all I can find is sales pitches even when talking to an installer. Current HVAC was a 4 ton heat pump about 5 years old. Air handler is still in good condition. I am looking for info that will let me know whether or not I can use the wells and/ or the existing air handler.

TIA
Jimmie

Your two wells are nice and all but a ground source geothermal
system is typically spread out over a larger area with coiled
loops of tubing which are buried (larger ground contact area)
rather than narrow wells with limited *ground contact area...

Wells are also pretty common. Could be they are a good fit if you don't
have a lot of land to bury the tubing.

They require a lot of earth moving to install and the size of
a ground contact heat exchanger in your tonnage would be
like digging for a septic system leaching field... *Then you
have all the associated pumping and heat exchanging
machinery which are quite expensive...

Perhaps you should look at either replacing the recently
stolen components with newer more energy efficient ones
as the coils for a geothermal system don't use compressed
refrigerant gas but circulate chilled water which would mean
you can not reuse the existing coil designed for DX gas
type cooling... *Or if you really want to go geothermal
consult an HVAC design engineer, not an installer, to
see just how much more such a system would cost above
and beyond your present guesstimates to see if such
fits in with your financial realities...

If you are looking at trying to be more environmentally
friendly there are other options such as packaged
chiller units with small sealed R407c refrigeration cycles
and are made by Multiaqua or gas fired chiller units which
use an ammonia refrigeration cycle R717 and therefore have
no ozone depleting CFCs which could escape made by
Robur...

It is all a matter of cost and choice, but as far as
geothermal goes you are way off the track if you
are thinking you can use any existing wells for
a ground source system so you might want to
consider other options or realize the actual cost
of going geothermal is much higher than you
are presently assuming...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If you have a few loops down in the well, it will heat up the water
whenever the AC is on. *Can you use warmed water for the supply for
the household water or will you have another well drilled to supply
the household water? *If the well water doesn't remain cool enough,
youmay have to pump some out periodically, or else continually drain a
little water, somehow you need to keep the water cool or the heat
exchanger is wating its time and electricity.

That is the problem with using wells as the ground source,
you install all the equipment to disperse heat into the ground
and then concentrate it into one area... The wells would
require you to waste the water to ensure you are constantly
drawing fresh cooler water from the aquifer into the well
chamber to be in contact with the loops from the geothermal
heat exchanger...

Personally I would rather use more electricity or fuel of
some kind than waste water for such silly purposes as
you may create issues for other users tapped into the
aquifer in your immediate area just pumping water out
as a cooling tower...

On Jul 1, 8:21*pm, JIMMIE wrote:
On Sunday, July 1, 2012 4:59:39 PM UTC-4, George wrote:
On 7/1/2012 3:16 PM, Bob F wrote:
Evan wrote:
On Jul 1, 12:36 pm, JIMMIE wrote:
Recently my HVAC compressor unit was stolen form a vacation home,
soon to be permanent residence. I was thinking about upgrading to
geothermal given that there are already 2 400 ft water wells on the
property. I am trying to find some meaningful info but so far all I
can find is sales pitches even when talking to an installer. Current
HVAC was a 4 ton heat pump about 5 years old. Air handler is still
in good condition. I am looking for info that will let me know
whether or not I can use the wells and/ or the existing air handler..

TIA
Jimmie

Your two wells are nice and all but a ground source geothermal
system is typically spread out over a larger area with coiled
loops of tubing which are buried (larger ground contact area)
rather than narrow wells with limited *ground contact area...

Geothernal heat pumps can use water sources from wells, lakes, streams, or
buried tubes. The limting factor would be the volume and temperature of the
supplied water. Buried tubes are only one possibility. They may be more common,
but that is just because that is simpler for most sites.

The well provides way more ground contact area in many cases, since it accesses
a significant area of the water table. They do require a significant volume of
well water. (Remember - two wells - water from one, going to the other)

A friend had one installed last year. We thought they were going to do
as you described. They actually drilled a couple wells and dropped a
loop of tubing into each well. So his "side" is actually a closed loop.

The closed loop system was what I was aiming for although I had considered pumping water well to well. Usually there is at least 300 ft of water in the wells. Information is a little hard to come by. Conceptually this doent seem like it should be much more complicated than a regular heat pump with the air to freon heat exchanger replace with a liquid to freon heat exchanger and replacing the fan with a circulating pump. How far off base am I? Would I need multiple loops in the wells or just one. What type of pipe is used to make the loops in a vertical system.

30 years ago I saw a home brewed system. The guy made his own water to refrigerant heat exchanger by passing water through every third turn of a regular air to freon device. He was fortunate to have an artisan well on his catfish farm for a water supply. This design also allowed him to use the fan on the outside coils if needed.

Jimmie

Except that with a heat rejection method using a coil to dissipate
heat into the atmosphere, even a tiny amount of air circulation
and the energy given up as heat to the air would create an induced
draft... Putting heat into even a 300 foot or 400 foot deep well is
a confined volume of water which means the temperature will
increase until you pump out the volume of water in the well just
to lower the temperature... How many gallons per hour of water
are you willing to waste for that purpose -- definitely wouldn't
be receiving a LEED certification on a system like that...

On Jul 2, 1:23*am, harry wrote:
On Jul 1, 7:18*pm, Evan wrote:









On Jul 1, 12:36*pm, JIMMIE wrote:

Recently *my HVAC compressor unit was stolen form a vacation home, soon to be permanent residence. *I was thinking about upgrading to geothermal given that there are already 2 400 ft water wells on the property. I am trying to find some meaningful info but so far all I can find is sales pitches even when talking to an installer. Current HVAC was a 4 ton heat pump about 5 years old. Air handler is still in good condition. I am looking for info that will let me know whether or not I can use the wells and/ or the existing air handler.

TIA
Jimmie

Your two wells are nice and all but a ground source geothermal
system is typically spread out over a larger area with coiled
loops of tubing which are buried (larger ground contact area)
rather than narrow wells with limited *ground contact area...

They require a lot of earth moving to install and the size of
a ground contact heat exchanger in your tonnage would be
like digging for a septic system leaching field... *Then you
have all the associated pumping and heat exchanging
machinery which are quite expensive...

Perhaps you should look at either replacing the recently
stolen components with newer more energy efficient ones
as the coils for a geothermal system don't use compressed
refrigerant gas but circulate chilled water which would mean
you can not reuse the existing coil designed for DX gas
type cooling... *Or if you really want to go geothermal
consult an HVAC design engineer, not an installer, to
see just how much more such a system would cost above
and beyond your present guesstimates to see if such
fits in with your financial realities...

If you are looking at trying to be more environmentally
friendly there are other options such as packaged
chiller units with small sealed R407c refrigeration cycles
and are made by Multiaqua or gas fired chiller units which
use an ammonia refrigeration cycle R717 and therefore have
no ozone depleting CFCs which could escape made by
Robur...

It is all a matter of cost and choice, but as far as
geothermal goes you are way off the track if you
are thinking you can use any existing wells for
a ground source system so you might want to
consider other options or realize the actual cost
of going geothermal is much higher than you
are presently assuming...

What nonsense you talk. *There are bore hole systems, trench sytems
and surface water systems. Depends on your location and the climate.

A closed loop system dumping all of its heat into
a well would require wasteful use of the water
with in the well as nothing more than a cooling tower,
to waste ground water in that manner is absurd
and not a very environmentally friendly "geothermal"
system... Wasting one resource to lower your
carbon footprint is just as bad as using the energy
or fuel in the first place...

Evan wrote:
If you have a few loops down in the well, it will heat up the water
whenever the AC is on. Can you use warmed water for the supply for
the household water or will you have another well drilled to supply
the household water? If the well water doesn't remain cool enough,
youmay have to pump some out periodically, or else continually drain
a little water, somehow you need to keep the water cool or the heat
exchanger is wating its time and electricity.

That is the problem with using wells as the ground source,
you install all the equipment to disperse heat into the ground
and then concentrate it into one area... The wells would
require you to waste the water to ensure you are constantly
drawing fresh cooler water from the aquifer into the well
chamber to be in contact with the loops from the geothermal
heat exchanger...

The water in the well alone ensures very good heat transfer to the surrounding
ground. As long as the changed water temp is not a problem, it should work fine.
Using two wells, pumping water from one, through the exchanger to the other
assures extremely good heat transfer to a large area of aquifer and surrounding
ground. ( with probable greater pumping costs) This also means you still have
plenty of cold water in one well, and could allow pre warmed water for the water
heater in the summer from the second well. If the wells are very close together,
more heat transfer to the source well may occur.

Evan wrote:
On Jul 2, 1:23 am, harry wrote:
On Jul 1, 7:18 pm, Evan wrote:









On Jul 1, 12:36 pm, JIMMIE wrote:

Recently my HVAC compressor unit was stolen form a vacation home,
soon to be permanent residence. I was thinking about upgrading to
geothermal given that there are already 2 400 ft water wells on
the property. I am trying to find some meaningful info but so far
all I can find is sales pitches even when talking to an installer.
Current HVAC was a 4 ton heat pump about 5 years old. Air handler
is still in good condition. I am looking for info that will let me
know whether or not I can use the wells and/ or the existing air
handler.

TIA
Jimmie

Your two wells are nice and all but a ground source geothermal
system is typically spread out over a larger area with coiled
loops of tubing which are buried (larger ground contact area)
rather than narrow wells with limited ground contact area...

They require a lot of earth moving to install and the size of
a ground contact heat exchanger in your tonnage would be
like digging for a septic system leaching field... Then you
have all the associated pumping and heat exchanging
machinery which are quite expensive...

Perhaps you should look at either replacing the recently
stolen components with newer more energy efficient ones
as the coils for a geothermal system don't use compressed
refrigerant gas but circulate chilled water which would mean
you can not reuse the existing coil designed for DX gas
type cooling... Or if you really want to go geothermal
consult an HVAC design engineer, not an installer, to
see just how much more such a system would cost above
and beyond your present guesstimates to see if such
fits in with your financial realities...

If you are looking at trying to be more environmentally
friendly there are other options such as packaged
chiller units with small sealed R407c refrigeration cycles
and are made by Multiaqua or gas fired chiller units which
use an ammonia refrigeration cycle R717 and therefore have
no ozone depleting CFCs which could escape made by
Robur...

It is all a matter of cost and choice, but as far as
geothermal goes you are way off the track if you
are thinking you can use any existing wells for
a ground source system so you might want to
consider other options or realize the actual cost
of going geothermal is much higher than you
are presently assuming...

What nonsense you talk. There are bore hole systems, trench sytems
and surface water systems. Depends on your location and the climate.

A closed loop system dumping all of its heat into
a well would require wasteful use of the water
with in the well as nothing more than a cooling tower,
to waste ground water in that manner is absurd
and not a very environmentally friendly "geothermal"
system... Wasting one resource to lower your
carbon footprint is just as bad as using the energy
or fuel in the first place...

Since the OP has 2 wells, this may not be a problem, if one is sufficient for
his heatpump.

On Jul 1, 2:18*pm, Evan wrote:
On Jul 1, 12:36*pm, JIMMIE wrote:

Recently *my HVAC compressor unit was stolen form a vacation home, soon to be permanent residence. *I was thinking about upgrading to geothermal given that there are already 2 400 ft water wells on the property. I am trying to find some meaningful info but so far all I can find is sales pitches even when talking to an installer. Current HVAC was a 4 ton heat pump about 5 years old. Air handler is still in good condition. I am looking for info that will let me know whether or not I can use the wells and/ or the existing air handler.

TIA
Jimmie

Your two wells are nice and all but a ground source geothermal
system is typically spread out over a larger area with coiled
loops of tubing which are buried (larger ground contact area)
rather than narrow wells with limited *ground contact area...
They require a lot of earth moving to install and the size of
a ground contact heat exchanger in your tonnage would be
like digging for a septic system leaching field... *Then you
have all the associated pumping and heat exchanging
machinery which are quite expensive...

There you go again giving answers when you don't even
understand the question or the subject. Note the subject:
VERTICAL Geothermal. That is geothermal using wells
instead of ground loops.







Perhaps you should look at either replacing the recently
stolen components with newer more energy efficient ones

So they can steel them too, right?




as the coils for a geothermal system don't use compressed
refrigerant gas but circulate chilled water which would mean
you can not reuse the existing coil designed for DX gas
type cooling...

The question was whether he could reuse the existing AIR
HANDLER. While he probably can't the air handler and
coil for a geothermal system operate using refrigerant
gas, just like any other heat pump system. The water
that is circulating in the loops is NOT circulating in the
air handler.




Or if you really want to go geothermal
consult an HVAC design engineer, not an installer, to
see just how much more such a system would cost above
and beyond your present guesstimates to see if such
fits in with your financial realities...

Yeah, that should work great. Instead of getting quotes
from 3 reputable firms on systems that are commonly
installed now, engage an HVAC design engineer.





If you are looking at trying to be more environmentally
friendly there are other options such as packaged
chiller units with small sealed R407c refrigeration cycles
and are made by Multiaqua or gas fired chiller units which
use an ammonia refrigeration cycle R717 and therefore have
no ozone depleting CFCs which could escape made by
Robur...

It is all a matter of cost and choice, but as far as
geothermal goes you are way off the track

He's not as far off track as you are. At least he knows
what vertical geothermal, using wells is.

On Jul 2, 5:56*am, CRNG wrote:
On Jul 1, 12:36*pm, JIMMIE wrote:

Recently *my HVAC compressor unit was stolen form a vacation home, soon to be permanent residence. *I was thinking about upgrading to geothermal given that there are already 2 400 ft water wells on the property. I am trying to find some meaningful info but so far all I can find is sales pitches even when talking to an installer.

That's because any meaningful info (i.e. total life cycle cost) of a
ground source heat pump would indicate that it isn't generally cost
effective when compared to typical alternatives.

Think about it: If there was a lot of cost-data supporting the
purchase, wouldn't the sales people be presenting it?

The above is generally true, from what I've seen. If you look at
the total cost, geothermal has a very long payback period and
for many applications the payback could be never.

Oren wrote:
On Mon, 2 Jul 2012 07:35:27 -0700, "Bob F"
wrote:

This whole thing is nothing but a political stunt by the Repubs. The
evidence is that the whole thing was cause by lax Arizona gun laws
that prevented the feds from being able to do anything about the gun
sales. The Arizona prosecuters just couldn't prosecute, because
Arizona laws did not make the sales illegal.

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.co...furious-truth/


Bull****. You do know a federal agent was killed, right? Would you
want to know what happened to your son or daughter in such a case?

I guess that Fortune magazine is just another example of the Right wing wacko
declared "left wing media"?
LOL!

You clowns won't even accept the writings of your own media.

CRNG wrote:
On Jul 1, 12:36 pm, JIMMIE wrote:

Recently my HVAC compressor unit was stolen form a vacation home, soon
to be permanent residence. I was thinking about upgrading to
geothermal given that there are already 2 400 ft water wells on the
property. I am trying to find some meaningful info but so far all I can
find is sales pitches even when talking to an installer.

That's because any meaningful info (i.e. total life cycle cost) of a
ground source heat pump would indicate that it isn't generally cost
effective when compared to typical alternatives.

Think about it: If there was a lot of cost-data supporting the
purchase, wouldn't the sales people be presenting it?

I think I could have got someone to dig my yard for a distributed system
fairly cheap. Lay in the pipes, cover up. Cheap in my mind. My standard
HVAC summer cooling costs are very low for my 1000 sqft, with basement
home.

Greg

On Mon, 02 Jul 2012 13:53:20 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Mon, 2 Jul 2012 07:35:27 -0700, "Bob F"
wrote:

This whole thing is nothing but a political stunt by the Repubs. The evidence is
that the whole thing was cause by lax Arizona gun laws that prevented the feds
from being able to do anything about the gun sales. The Arizona prosecuters just
couldn't prosecute, because Arizona laws did not make the sales illegal.

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.co...furious-truth/


Bull****. You do know a federal agent was killed, right? Would you
want to know what happened to your son or daughter in such a case?

Would you want to know who was responsible?

Here. Chew on this and try to grasp what is said, not what your
political beliefs are.

...
Forget executive privilege, contempt of Congress, "fast and furious,"
how many documents the government has produced and who said what to
whom on which date.

The point that most miss is that it can only be "executive privilege" if the
covered documents are internal conversations with the President himself. The
President is now either guilty of gun-running, with multiple murders
resulting, or obstruction of justice. It now *has* to be one or the other.
There can't be a middle road.

On Jul 2, 7:15*pm, "
wrote:
On Mon, 02 Jul 2012 13:53:20 -0700, Oren wrote:
On Mon, 2 Jul 2012 07:35:27 -0700, "Bob F"
wrote:

This whole thing is nothing but a political stunt by the Repubs. The evidence is
that the whole thing was cause by lax Arizona gun laws that prevented the feds
from being able to do anything about the gun sales. The Arizona prosecuters just
couldn't prosecute, because Arizona laws did not make the sales illegal..

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.co...furious-truth/

Bull****. *You do know a federal agent was killed, right? *Would you
want to know what happened to your son or daughter in such a case?

Would you want to know who was responsible?

Here. *Chew on this and try to grasp what is said, not what your
political beliefs are.

...
Forget executive privilege, contempt of Congress, "fast and furious,"
how many documents the government has produced and who said what to
whom on which date.

The point that most miss is that it can only be "executive privilege" if the
covered documents are internal conversations with the President himself. *The
President is now either guilty of gun-running, with multiple murders
resulting, or obstruction of justice. *It now *has* to be one or the other.
There can't be a middle road.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The above is not true. The documents potentially covered by executive
privilege are not limited to those directly involving the president.
They
can also be documents from within the executive branch where the
president believes releasing them is an unwarranted intrusion on the
rights and functioning of the executive branch. Obviously the
case for using executive privilege and
it being upheld by the courts is going to be strongest if it covers
documents or conversations involving the president himself.

And in the "fast and furious" case, I think it's going to be hard
for the president to argue that the need for the requested
documents to be kept from Congress outweighes the right
of Congress to fully investigate what happened here. Ultimately
I would expect that a court will order that most of them be
turned over.

On Mon, 02 Jul 2012 19:15:58 -0400, "
wrote:

On Mon, 02 Jul 2012 13:53:20 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Mon, 2 Jul 2012 07:35:27 -0700, "Bob F"
wrote:

This whole thing is nothing but a political stunt by the Repubs. The evidence is
that the whole thing was cause by lax Arizona gun laws that prevented the feds
from being able to do anything about the gun sales. The Arizona prosecuters just
couldn't prosecute, because Arizona laws did not make the sales illegal.

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.co...furious-truth/


Bull****. You do know a federal agent was killed, right? Would you
want to know what happened to your son or daughter in such a case?

Would you want to know who was responsible?

Here. Chew on this and try to grasp what is said, not what your
political beliefs are.

...
Forget executive privilege, contempt of Congress, "fast and furious,"
how many documents the government has produced and who said what to
whom on which date.

The point that most miss is that it can only be "executive privilege" if the
covered documents are internal conversations with the President himself. The
President is now either guilty of gun-running, with multiple murders
resulting, or obstruction of justice. It now *has* to be one or the other.
There can't be a middle road.

Yes. This was a 11th hour declaration of EP. They've had 18 months
to provide documents.

Meanwhile, the family of Brian Terry has not a single answer given as
to what truthfully happened when their son was murdered.

Mad-libs will never consider that being forthright and honest is the
better policy.

On Mon, 2 Jul 2012 16:30:06 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

Ultimately
I would expect that a court will order that most of them be
turned over.

The House can take the civil contempt citation to a Federal court in
D.C.. Criminal contempt is dead.

If Holder refuses the judge's order to turn them over, he can be found
in contempt of court. The judge can put him in the pokey until he
turns them over or has a come to Jesus moment.

On Mon, 2 Jul 2012 16:30:06 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Jul 2, 7:15*pm, "
wrote:
On Mon, 02 Jul 2012 13:53:20 -0700, Oren wrote:
On Mon, 2 Jul 2012 07:35:27 -0700, "Bob F"
wrote:

This whole thing is nothing but a political stunt by the Repubs. The evidence is
that the whole thing was cause by lax Arizona gun laws that prevented the feds
from being able to do anything about the gun sales. The Arizona prosecuters just
couldn't prosecute, because Arizona laws did not make the sales illegal.

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.co...furious-truth/

Bull****. *You do know a federal agent was killed, right? *Would you
want to know what happened to your son or daughter in such a case?

Would you want to know who was responsible?

Here. *Chew on this and try to grasp what is said, not what your
political beliefs are.

...
Forget executive privilege, contempt of Congress, "fast and furious,"
how many documents the government has produced and who said what to
whom on which date.

The point that most miss is that it can only be "executive privilege" if the
covered documents are internal conversations with the President himself. *The
President is now either guilty of gun-running, with multiple murders
resulting, or obstruction of justice. *It now *has* to be one or the other.
There can't be a middle road.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The above is not true. The documents potentially covered by executive
privilege are not limited to those directly involving the president.

No, the privileged communications are *only* those regarding policy in the
Office of the Executive, not the agencies below that.

They
can also be documents from within the executive branch where the
president believes releasing them is an unwarranted intrusion on the
rights and functioning of the executive branch. Obviously the
case for using executive privilege and
it being upheld by the courts is going to be strongest if it covers
documents or conversations involving the president himself.

No, the "privilege" is *only* in the office of the President, not at the
cabinet-level.

And in the "fast and furious" case, I think it's going to be hard
for the president to argue that the need for the requested
documents to be kept from Congress outweighes the right
of Congress to fully investigate what happened here. Ultimately
I would expect that a court will order that most of them be
turned over.

Agreed. But they won't be (turned over). What are they going to do, impeach
him? Not bloody likely.