It's 13F outside and our new geothermal system is working very well
(and inexpensively); however, the air in our house is drier than we'd
like.

The installer suggests that a steam-generating humidifier is the only
way to go because of the geothermal system's lower operating
temperature. My research indicates that steam-generating humidifiers
use a lot of power (similar to keeping a kettle plugged in for hours
on end), waste a considerable amount of water down the drain, and
suffer from orifice-clogging when used with well water. I don't want
to deal with any of these (especially with water down the drain - we
don't have a drain in the basement floor).

So ... has anyone out there had success/failure with other kinds of
whole-house humidifiers connected to geothermal units?

(Please, I don't want to hear from folks who "...know someone who..."
or "...heard somewhere..." or do not have a geothermal system
themselves)

borealbushman wrote in news:45786144-a4ac-4290-
:

It's 13F outside and our new geothermal system is working very well
(and inexpensively); however, the air in our house is drier than we'd
like.

The installer suggests that a steam-generating humidifier is the only
way to go because of the geothermal system's lower operating
temperature. My research indicates that steam-generating humidifiers
use a lot of power (similar to keeping a kettle plugged in for hours
on end), waste a considerable amount of water down the drain, and
suffer from orifice-clogging when used with well water. I don't want
to deal with any of these (especially with water down the drain - we
don't have a drain in the basement floor).

So ... has anyone out there had success/failure with other kinds of
whole-house humidifiers connected to geothermal units?

(Please, I don't want to hear from folks who "...know someone who..."
or "...heard somewhere..." or do not have a geothermal system
themselves)



We have a new geothermal install, and have taken to humidifying the house
the same way we did with the propane furnace. There's a large humidifier
in the middle of the house which uses about 4-5 gallons of water a day.

It's doing an adequate job, keeping the cats from getting shocked when we
pet them. (That's the first sign of low humidity.) ;-)

I'd like a furnace unit myself, so I didn't have to fill the humidifier
every day.

Puckdropper
--
On Usenet, no one can hear you laugh. That's a good thing, though, as
some writers are incorrigible.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

On Feb 5, 1:02*am, borealbushman wrote:
It's 13F outside and our new geothermal system is working very well
(and inexpensively); however, the air in our house is drier than we'd
like.

The installer suggests that a steam-generating humidifier is the only
way to go because of the geothermal system's lower operating
temperature. My research indicates that steam-generating humidifiers
use a lot of power (similar to keeping a kettle plugged in for hours
on end), waste a considerable amount of water down the drain, and
suffer from orifice-clogging when used with well water. I don't want
to deal with any of these (especially with water down the drain - we
don't have a drain in the basement floor).

So ... has anyone out there had success/failure with other kinds of
whole-house humidifiers connected to geothermal units?

(Please, I don't want to hear from folks who "...know someone who..."
or "...heard somewhere..." or do not have a geothermal system
themselves)

You have the most efficient heat and he says put in the least
efficient humidifier, plants work. April Air has very good units and
an auto humidity system that works, I am sure April Air knows how to
size you for your system.

borealbushman wrote:
It's 13F outside and our new geothermal system is working very well
(and inexpensively); however, the air in our house is drier than we'd
like.

The installer suggests that a steam-generating humidifier is the only
way to go because of the geothermal system's lower operating
temperature. ...

We didn't seem to need it in TN particularly so didn't do anything.
But, the outlet temperatures were adequate I don't think there would
have been a problem w/ the plenum units.

But, we didn't normally have 13F outside air temp's, but if had the
system would have been sized somewhat larger, too.

Which geothermal unit is it? I'd suggest talking to a rep directly;
WaterFurnace was super in that regard.

--

I had a steam generator installed on a new heat pump/electric zone and
the moisture ruined the coils, enclosure,etc. Currently have an April
Aire (and of course a new air handler) which drains excess water to a
summer condensate tank with a float switch operated pump which pumps the
drain water up about eight feet through a loop and a check valve into a
grey water house drain system. I have not found any of them to be great
in this house which is rather large.


borealbushman wrote:
It's 13F outside and our new geothermal system is working very well
(and inexpensively); however, the air in our house is drier than we'd
like.

The installer suggests that a steam-generating humidifier is the only
way to go because of the geothermal system's lower operating
temperature. My research indicates that steam-generating humidifiers
use a lot of power (similar to keeping a kettle plugged in for hours
on end), waste a considerable amount of water down the drain, and
suffer from orifice-clogging when used with well water. I don't want
to deal with any of these (especially with water down the drain - we
don't have a drain in the basement floor).

So ... has anyone out there had success/failure with other kinds of
whole-house humidifiers connected to geothermal units?

(Please, I don't want to hear from folks who "...know someone who..."
or "...heard somewhere..." or do not have a geothermal system
themselves)

x-no-archive:

I think you are mis-informed about humidifiers. Steam type humidifiers
dont run water down the drain. They pretty much put it all into the
air. They all have their ups and downs.
Try this link. Its is an evaporative type which stops all the water
down the drain yet doesnt build up all the calcium deposits like the
old drum types did.http://www.aprilaire.com/index.php?z...ails&category=...
Honeywell makes a new one called True Steam that is supposed to be the
latest in steam technology. I havent tried one of those yet so the
jury is still out.
Bubba- Hide quoted text -


There are only three places the minerals present in the input water
can go:

1) down the drain with the bleed water,
2) into the air as white dust or
3) stay in the humidifer and gunk it up..

If there is no bleed water it can't be #1.

Of the three choices, I think #1 is the least bad choice.

Mark

On Feb 6, 11:19*am, wrote:
x-no-archive:

I think you are mis-informed about humidifiers. Steam type humidifiers
dont run water down the drain. They pretty much put it all into the
air. They all have their ups and downs.
Try this link. Its is an evaporative type which stops all the water
down the drain yet doesnt build up all the calcium deposits like the
old drum types did.http://www.aprilaire.com/index.php?z...ails&category=...
Honeywell makes a new one called True Steam that is supposed to be the
latest in steam technology. I havent tried one of those yet so the
jury is still out.
Bubba- Hide quoted text -

There are only three places the minerals present in the input water
can go:

1) down the drain with the bleed water,
2) into the air as white dust or
3) stay in the humidifer and gunk it up..

If there is no bleed water it can't be #1.

Of the three choices, I think #1 is the least bad choice.

Mark

Agree. I'd also suggest that the real question here has little to do
with geothermal. It comes down to using a humidifier with a heat
pump, which presents lower air temps for evaporation. One solution
to this is to use hot water, which everyone (except Bubba)
acknowledges evaporates faster.

I would think all the major manufacturers of humidifiers would have
info on their websites about using them with heat pump systems.

wrote:
....
... I'd also suggest that the real question here has little to do
with geothermal. It comes down to using a humidifier with a heat
pump, which presents lower air temps for evaporation. ...

Geothermal properly sized generally has quite a lot higher exit
temperatures than will an air-exchange heat pump owing to (again
generally) higher quality heat source.

Hence my recommendation to speak to the rep of the particular equipment
for the particular installation.

--

On Feb 6, 8:44*pm, Bubba wrote:
On Fri, 6 Feb 2009 08:56:28 -0800 (PST), wrote:
On Feb 6, 11:19*am, wrote:
x-no-archive:

I think you are mis-informed about humidifiers. Steam type humidifiers
dont run water down the drain. They pretty much put it all into the
air. They all have their ups and downs.
Try this link. Its is an evaporative type which stops all the water
down the drain yet doesnt build up all the calcium deposits like the
old drum types did.http://www.aprilaire.com/index.php?z...ails&category=...
Honeywell makes a new one called True Steam that is supposed to be the
latest in steam technology. I havent tried one of those yet so the
jury is still out.
Bubba- Hide quoted text -

There are only three places the minerals present in the input water
can go:

1) down the drain with the bleed water,
2) into the air as white dust or
3) stay in the humidifer and gunk it up..

If there is no bleed water it can't be #1.

Of the three choices, I think #1 is the least bad choice.

Mark

Agree. *I'd also suggest that the real question here has little to do
with geothermal. *It comes down to using a humidifier with a heat
pump, which presents lower air temps for evaporation. * One solution
to this is to use hot water, which everyone (except Bubba)
acknowledges evaporates faster.

Still believing everything you read I see, eh trader?
And I thought an EE learned to think "out of the box".
Bubba



I would think all the major manufacturers of humidifiers would have
info on their websites about using them with heat pump systems.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

you know you guys should stop arguing about this becasue you are BOTH
right.

In order to evaprorate, water has to absorb the "latent heat of
vaporization". The amount of heat needed to raise the temperature
from "cold" to "hot" is pretty small compared to the latent heat of
vaporization. If you start with hot water, some of the heat is
already there but it is a small fraction of the total amount needed to
evaporate it...so yes if you connect a hot water feed to a humidifer
it might evaporate a little more water but not much, probably not
enough to notice the difference. Compare how long it takes water on
the stove to heat from cold to hot, compared to how long it takes to
boil it all away...

Mark

On Feb 6, 10:22*pm, wrote:
On Feb 6, 8:44*pm, Bubba wrote:





On Fri, 6 Feb 2009 08:56:28 -0800 (PST), wrote:
On Feb 6, 11:19*am, wrote:
x-no-archive:

I think you are mis-informed about humidifiers. Steam type humidifiers
dont run water down the drain. They pretty much put it all into the
air. They all have their ups and downs.
Try this link. Its is an evaporative type which stops all the water
down the drain yet doesnt build up all the calcium deposits like the
old drum types did.http://www.aprilaire.com/index.php?z...ails&category=...
Honeywell makes a new one called True Steam that is supposed to be the
latest in steam technology. I havent tried one of those yet so the
jury is still out.
Bubba- Hide quoted text -

There are only three places the minerals present in the input water
can go:

1) down the drain with the bleed water,
2) into the air as white dust or
3) stay in the humidifer and gunk it up..

If there is no bleed water it can't be #1.

Of the three choices, I think #1 is the least bad choice.

Mark

Agree. *I'd also suggest that the real question here has little to do
with geothermal. *It comes down to using a humidifier with a heat
pump, which presents lower air temps for evaporation. * One solution
to this is to use hot water, which everyone (except Bubba)
acknowledges evaporates faster.

Still believing everything you read I see, eh trader?
And I thought an EE learned to think "out of the box".
Bubba

I would think all the major manufacturers of humidifiers would have
info on their websites about using them with heat pump systems.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

you know you guys should stop arguing about this becasue you are BOTH
right.

In order to evaprorate, water has to absorb the "latent heat of
vaporization". *The amount of heat needed to raise the temperature
from "cold" to "hot" is pretty small compared to the latent heat of
vaporization. *If you start with hot water, some of the heat is
already there but it is a small fraction of the total amount needed to
evaporate it...so yes if you connect a hot water feed to a humidifer
it might evaporate a little more water but not much, probably not
enough to notice the difference. *Compare how long it takes water on
the stove to heat from cold to hot, compared to how long it takes to
boil it all away...

Mark- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Well, Mark, we're gonna find out. Because I'm going to run the test
on my humidifier and actually measure it. My position is that
evaporation is not a simple process like boiling water in a closed
container. It's a complex process that involves both heat and mass
transfer. For water to evaporate, the higher energy water molecules
just need to break the surface tension of the water and be carried
away by the force of the moving air, which in a furnace humidifier is
substantial. The more energy the water has, the more readily some
of those molecules will escape the surface. The obvious factors that
affect the rate of evaporation are the water temp, the surface area,
and the air speed.

If temp doesn't make a significant difference, then why does a warm
cup of coffee evaporate when you go outside on a cold day, while a
cold cup does not? And why do humidifier manufacturers recommend
using hot water to increase the output? They should know more about
it from a practical standpoint, than any of us. Here's what
Aprilaire has to say. I know Bubba has dismissed them but I'd be
interested in why you think they would be misleading customers? What
motivation could they have?


http://www.aprilaire.com/index.php?z...n=OwnersManual

"Hot supply water, 140°F maximum, is recommended with drain type
humidifiers for increasing capacity and is required for heat pump and
air
handler applications."



http://www.aprilaire.com/index.php?z...idifiers#10044

Should our humidifier be connected with hot or cold water?
All of our flow-through units can be connected to hot or cold water.
Hot water increases the evaporative capacity of your humidifer,
provides more humidity to the home and offers more flexibility in the
operation of the humidifier. Some of our units can use hot air and
cold water. All humidifiers need some source of heat for evaporation
to take place whether it is hot water or hot air. We would recommend
that if our power units are installed on the return ductwork, that
they be connected to hot water, as this is their only heat source.
Heat pumps and large capacity installations need hot water. Heat pumps
are not hot enough for evaporation and some larger installations need
maximum capacity so they will need to use both hot air and hot water.
The Model 400 should be connected to cold water due to the wicking
Water Panel as it cannot be guaranteed that the water will stay hot
while waiting for the next heat call on the Water Panel. With any
drain-though Aprilaire Humidifier connected to hot water, the heat in
the water is used in the evaporation process and the water coming out
of the drain will be cold to the touch. ^back to top


Here's a link from a HVAC company. BTW where's Bubba's website?

http://www.hauckbrothers.com/humidifier_questions.html

Should my humidifier be connected to hot or cold water?

All humidifiers can be connected to hot or cold water, although there
are some instances where it is necessary to supply hot water. For
instance, on a system with a heat pump, or on a fan forced humidifier
attached to a return air duct. This is because all humidifiers need a
source of heat to evaporate the water. In other situations, while it
isn’t absolutely necessary, it is helpful to use hot water for supply
as it increases the efficiency and flexibility of the humidifier
system. For example, in a large house where a humidifier operates at
its highest capacity. Any humidifier system will benefit from hot
water supply although it isn’t necessary on an average or smaller
installation.

On Feb 7, 10:53*am, Bubba wrote:
On Sat, 7 Feb 2009 06:53:27 -0800 (PST), wrote:
On Feb 6, 10:22*pm, wrote:
On Feb 6, 8:44*pm, Bubba wrote:

On Fri, 6 Feb 2009 08:56:28 -0800 (PST), wrote:
On Feb 6, 11:19*am, wrote:
x-no-archive:

I think you are mis-informed about humidifiers. Steam type humidifiers
dont run water down the drain. They pretty much put it all into the
air. They all have their ups and downs.
Try this link. Its is an evaporative type which stops all the water
down the drain yet doesnt build up all the calcium deposits like the
old drum types did.http://www.aprilaire.com/index.php?z...ails&category=...
Honeywell makes a new one called True Steam that is supposed to be the
latest in steam technology. I havent tried one of those yet so the
jury is still out.
Bubba- Hide quoted text -

There are only three places the minerals present in the input water
can go:

1) down the drain with the bleed water,
2) into the air as white dust or
3) stay in the humidifer and gunk it up..

If there is no bleed water it can't be #1.

Of the three choices, I think #1 is the least bad choice.

Mark

Agree. *I'd also suggest that the real question here has little to do
with geothermal. *It comes down to using a humidifier with a heat
pump, which presents lower air temps for evaporation. * One solution
to this is to use hot water, which everyone (except Bubba)
acknowledges evaporates faster.

Still believing everything you read I see, eh trader?
And I thought an EE learned to think "out of the box".
Bubba

I would think all the major manufacturers of humidifiers would have
info on their websites about using them with heat pump systems.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

you know you guys should stop arguing about this becasue you are BOTH
right.

In order to evaprorate, water has to absorb the "latent heat of
vaporization". *The amount of heat needed to raise the temperature
from "cold" to "hot" is pretty small compared to the latent heat of
vaporization. *If you start with hot water, some of the heat is
already there but it is a small fraction of the total amount needed to
evaporate it...so yes if you connect a hot water feed to a humidifer
it might evaporate a little more water but not much, probably not
enough to notice the difference. *Compare how long it takes water on
the stove to heat from cold to hot, compared to how long it takes to
boil it all away...

Mark- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well, Mark, we're gonna find out. * Because I'm going to run the test
on my humidifier and actually measure it. *My position is that
evaporation is not a simple process like boiling water in a closed
container. *It's a complex process that involves both heat and mass
transfer. * For water to evaporate, the higher energy water molecules
just need to break the surface tension of the water and be carried
away by the force of the moving air, which in a furnace humidifier is
substantial. * The *more energy the water has, *the more readily some
of those molecules will escape the surface. *The obvious factors that
affect the rate of evaporation are the water temp, the surface area,
and the air speed.

If temp doesn't make a significant difference, then why does a warm
cup of coffee evaporate when you go outside on a cold day, while a
cold cup does not? * And why do humidifier manufacturers recommend
using hot water to increase the output? * They should know more about
it from a practical standpoint, than any of us. * Here's what
Aprilaire has to say. * I know Bubba has dismissed them but I'd be
interested in why you think they would be misleading customers? * What
motivation could they have?

Cmon trader. You arent that stupid/niave, are you? Aprilaire is in the
business of selling humidifiers. "Uh oh, we have customers that want
to put a humidifier on a heat pump or air handler with no heat or they
just want to add moisture but dont have a nice warm gas or oil furnace
to evaporate the water. What do we do? " Aprilaire is brilliant enough
in marketing to tell everyone that if you use the hot water, that will
do the trick.

I fail to see how telling people to use hot water will do any good.
All they would have is unhappy customers returning product. And if
they wanted to lie, all they would have to do is say their humdifiers
work the same with either hot or cold water. But they don't. In
fact, telling people to use hot water works against them. They could
just tell people that to get more output, you have to buy one of their
bigger and more expensive models.


As for who's stupid, I'll leave that for others here to judge. You
seem to have a lot of folks here who respect you, right?




I say BULL! Show me one place where you find Aprilaire showing an
actual test where they can tell you how much more humidity it adds?

Show me one place where anyone did a test that shows it doesn't add
humidity.




Let me give you a hint. You wont find it.
Look at a steam humidifier. Look at the energy it takes to put that
moisture into the air stream. Its a fair amount. Now look at how much
moisture you are going to add by using typical 120 water water supply,
that travels maybe 10 or 20 feet through a 1/4" copper line in a cool
basement that is then squeezed through a tiny orifice, slowly
distributed over a distribution tray and then FINALLY gets to drip
down on a honeycomb panel with semi rapidly moving air going across
it. Next to NOTHING more is going to be evaporated.


Explain then how it is that a cup of hot coffee readily evaporates
when you take it outside on a cold day, with visible condesation,
while a cold cup of coffee does not? Funny how you can't answer that
simple question. The answer is obvious: Hot water evaporates at a
faster rate.

Now in a water panel humidifier, your assertion that the water is cold
by the time it gets to the humidifier is silly, but it's what you're
left with to try to dig yourself out of your hole. In my house the
water heater is right next to the furnace and it's not going to lose
much. So, big deal, let's say it goes from 135 to 120. I still
say, from everyday experience, it's obvious to just about everyone but
you, that 120 deg water evaporates faster than 40 deg water. Pour 120
degree water on a towel and take it outside. Do the same with 40 deg
water and see what happens.

And if you look at what goes on inside the humidifier, I would expect
that the water goes from 120 down to it's final temp as it moves down
the panel. At some point, it's probably equal to the temp you would
have with cold water, because it reaches a steady state. However,
I'm fairly certain that point is a good ways down the panel, maybe
half way. And during that part of the water's journey, it's
evaporating MORE because hot water evaporates more readily. And it
makes enough difference for it to make a substantial difference in the
output rate. Which is what Aprilaire and the HVAC company I provided
say.



Again, Ive told you time and time again to try the test Ive already
done but you still wont do it. Instead you are just a
follower.....reading and believing without ever doing just the
absolute simplest of tests.

As I stated, I am going to do the test. But somehow I already know
that you won't accept the results. BTW, isn't testing and validating
theories part of science and engineering? And we know how you eschew
anything to do with that.





Anyone can do this simple test:
Turn the fan on your furnace on. Do not use the heat.
Not turn on the cold water to the humidifier. Start a timer and catch
the excess water in something measureable.
Do it for 5 mins or however long you wish.
NOW, do the same exact thing with the humidifer hooked to the hot
water line.
Look at the difference in the water in the bucket. If you can show me
any measureable difference in the amount of water in the two buckets
I'll send you a free humidifier.


Now this is even more bizarre. If heat has no effect like you say it
does, then why do we have heated clothes dryers? Why not just tumble
the clothes in cold air?




If you like, you might want to read some of "teddy bears" posts in
hvac-talk. He seems to have a grip on it too.
Trader, Im really disappointed in you. Without testing a thing you
seem to be as hardheaded/stupid as even ransley.
Pull yourself out of the gutter a bit.
Bubba



Not hard headed at all. It's just that I have a degree in
engineering and know a lot more than you will ever know about the
physical sciences. And what I know is consistent with what
Aprilaire, who is in the business and should know, says.

On Feb 7, 11:28*am, wrote:
On Feb 7, 10:53*am, Bubba wrote:





On Sat, 7 Feb 2009 06:53:27 -0800 (PST), wrote:
On Feb 6, 10:22*pm, wrote:
On Feb 6, 8:44*pm, Bubba wrote:

On Fri, 6 Feb 2009 08:56:28 -0800 (PST), wrote:
On Feb 6, 11:19*am, wrote:
x-no-archive:

I think you are mis-informed about humidifiers. Steam type humidifiers
dont run water down the drain. They pretty much put it all into the
air. They all have their ups and downs.
Try this link. Its is an evaporative type which stops all the water
down the drain yet doesnt build up all the calcium deposits like the
old drum types did.http://www.aprilaire.com/index.php?z...ails&category=...
Honeywell makes a new one called True Steam that is supposed to be the
latest in steam technology. I havent tried one of those yet so the
jury is still out.
Bubba- Hide quoted text -

There are only three places the minerals present in the input water
can go:

1) down the drain with the bleed water,
2) into the air as white dust or
3) stay in the humidifer and gunk it up..

If there is no bleed water it can't be #1.

Of the three choices, I think #1 is the least bad choice.

Mark

Agree. *I'd also suggest that the real question here has little to do
with geothermal. *It comes down to using a humidifier with a heat
pump, which presents lower air temps for evaporation. * One solution
to this is to use hot water, which everyone (except Bubba)
acknowledges evaporates faster.

Still believing everything you read I see, eh trader?
And I thought an EE learned to think "out of the box".
Bubba

I would think all the major manufacturers of humidifiers would have
info on their websites about using them with heat pump systems.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

you know you guys should stop arguing about this becasue you are BOTH
right.

In order to evaprorate, water has to absorb the "latent heat of
vaporization". *The amount of heat needed to raise the temperature
from "cold" to "hot" is pretty small compared to the latent heat of
vaporization. *If you start with hot water, some of the heat is
already there but it is a small fraction of the total amount needed to
evaporate it...so yes if you connect a hot water feed to a humidifer
it might evaporate a little more water but not much, probably not
enough to notice the difference. *Compare how long it takes water on
the stove to heat from cold to hot, compared to how long it takes to
boil it all away...

Mark- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well, Mark, we're gonna find out. * Because I'm going to run the test
on my humidifier and actually measure it. *My position is that
evaporation is not a simple process like boiling water in a closed
container. *It's a complex process that involves both heat and mass
transfer. * For water to evaporate, the higher energy water molecules
just need to break the surface tension of the water and be carried
away by the force of the moving air, which in a furnace humidifier is
substantial. * The *more energy the water has, *the more readily some
of those molecules will escape the surface. *The obvious factors that
affect the rate of evaporation are the water temp, the surface area,
and the air speed.

If temp doesn't make a significant difference, then why does a warm
cup of coffee evaporate when you go outside on a cold day, while a
cold cup does not? * And why do humidifier manufacturers recommend
using hot water to increase the output? * They should know more about
it from a practical standpoint, than any of us. * Here's what
Aprilaire has to say. * I know Bubba has dismissed them but I'd be
interested in why you think they would be misleading customers? * What
motivation could they have?

Cmon trader. You arent that stupid/niave, are you? Aprilaire is in the
business of selling humidifiers. "Uh oh, we have customers that want
to put a humidifier on a heat pump or air handler with no heat or they
just want to add moisture but dont have a nice warm gas or oil furnace
to evaporate the water. What do we do? " Aprilaire is brilliant enough
in marketing to tell everyone that if you use the hot water, that will
do the trick.

I fail to see how telling people to use hot water will do any good.
All they would have is unhappy customers returning product. * And if
they wanted to lie, all they would have to do is say their humdifiers
work the same with either hot or cold water. * But they don't. * In
fact, telling people to use hot water works against them. * They could
just tell people that to get more output, you have to buy one of their
bigger and more expensive models.

As for who's stupid, I'll leave that for others here to judge. *You
seem to have a lot of folks here who respect you, right?

I say BULL! Show me one place where you find Aprilaire showing an
actual test where they can tell you how much more humidity it adds?

Show me one place where anyone did a test that shows it doesn't add
humidity.

Let me give you a hint. You wont find it.
Look at a steam humidifier. Look at the energy it takes to put that
moisture into the air stream. Its a fair amount. Now look at how much
moisture you are going to add by using typical 120 water water supply,
that travels maybe 10 or 20 feet through a 1/4" copper line in a cool
basement that is then squeezed through a tiny orifice, slowly
distributed over a distribution tray and then FINALLY gets to drip
down on a honeycomb panel with semi rapidly moving air going across
it. Next to NOTHING more is going to be evaporated.

Explain then how it is that a cup of hot coffee readily evaporates
when you take it outside on a cold day, with visible condesation,
while a cold cup of coffee does not? * Funny how you can't answer that
simple question. * The answer is obvious: *Hot water evaporates at a
faster rate.

Now in a water panel humidifier, your assertion that the water is cold
by the time it gets to the humidifier is silly, but it's what you're
left with to try to dig yourself out of your hole. * * In my house the
water heater is right next to the furnace and it's not going to lose
much. * So, big deal, let's say it goes from 135 to 120. * I still
say, from everyday experience, it's obvious to just about everyone but
you, that 120 deg water evaporates faster than 40 deg water. *Pour 120
degree water on a towel and take it outside. * Do the same with 40 deg
water and see what happens.

And if you look at what goes on inside the humidifier, I would expect
that the water goes from 120 down to it's final temp as it moves down
the panel. * At some point, it's probably equal to the temp you would
have with cold water, because it reaches a steady state. * *However,
I'm fairly certain that point is a good ways down the panel, maybe
half way. * And during that part of the water's journey, it's
evaporating MORE because hot water evaporates more readily. * And it
makes enough difference for it to make a substantial difference in the
output rate. * Which is what Aprilaire and the HVAC company I provided
say.

Again, Ive told you time and time again to try the test Ive already
done but you still wont do it. Instead you are just a
follower.....reading and believing without ever doing just the
absolute simplest of tests.

As I stated, I am going to do the test. * But somehow I already know
that you won't accept the results. *BTW, isn't testing and validating
theories part of science and engineering? * And we know how you eschew
anything to do with that.

Anyone can do this simple test:
Turn the fan on your furnace on. Do not use the heat.
Not turn on the cold water to the humidifier. Start a timer and catch
the excess water in something measureable.
Do it for 5 mins or however long you wish.
NOW, do the same exact thing with the humidifer hooked to the hot
water line.
Look at the difference in the water in the bucket. If you can show me
any measureable difference in the amount of water in the two buckets
I'll send you a free humidifier.

Now this is even more bizarre. * If heat has no effect like you say it
does, then why do we have heated clothes dryers? * Why not just tumble
the clothes in cold air?

If you like, you might want to read some of "teddy bears" posts in
hvac-talk. He seems to have a grip on it too.
Trader, Im really disappointed in you. Without testing a thing you
seem to be as hardheaded/stupid as even ransley.
Pull yourself out of the gutter a bit.
Bubba

Not hard headed at all. * It's just that I have a degree in
engineering and know a lot more than you will ever know about the
physical sciences. * And what I know is consistent with what
Aprilaire, who is in the business and should know, says.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I tried feeding my humidifier with hot water several years ago. The
problem was it got cold by the time it got to my HVAC system.

Jimmie

On Feb 7, 7:45*pm, Bubba wrote:
speed.


Explain how ice cubes in the freezer seem to get smaller and smaller
due to evaporation.


Actually, it's referred to as sublimation. And it's another good
example to prove my point. Sure they get smaller over time. Now, I
don't know about the freezer in your strange universe, but in mine,
that process takes several weeks for the ice cubes to become
noticeably smaller. Further proof that the rate that molecules
leave the surface of a material, whether by evaporation or
sublimation, is directly and substantiallly affected by temperature.
If you put a tray of hot water into the freezer, it would lose mass at
a much higher rate than the solid ice cubes. In the case of the
coffee cup you bring outside, the rate is so high that you can see it
evaporating.




In other words, you stupid example of a hot cup of coffee evaporating
on a cold day and a cold cup not is ridiculous. First of all, you are
going to need something that measures in molecules because the
difference you are talking about wont be able to be seen by the naked
eye.




LOL Of course it can be seen by the naked eye. I'ts called
condensation. With a cold cup of coffee, some water is evaporating,
but it's at such a slow rate that it can't be seen. With hot water,
it's a significantly faster rate and can be seen as visible
condensation.

Why do you think clothes dryers use heat to dry clothes instead of
just tumbling them around?




Now in a water panel humidifier, your assertion that the water is cold
by the time it gets to the humidifier is silly, but it's what you're
left with to try to dig yourself out of your hole. * * In my house the
water heater is right next to the furnace and it's not going to lose
much. *

and that is EXACTLY where you are wrong. How long have we been arguing
this now?

I'm wrong that my water heater is next to my furnace? It's about 5
ft from the humidifier unless it ran away with your wife last night.





A month or more? Typical of an EE like you. It takes about 5
or 10 mins to prove me wrong (which you cant) but instead you think
you can babble your way through it. Sorry bud, it aint happening. I've
already done the test.


Sure it can be done. And I will do it. But any reasonable person
here knows that to test a running furnace with hot and cold water
going into the humidifier to measure the difference isn't going to be
done in 5 or 10 mins. Which suggests that whatever you measured, if
you did indeed measure anything as opposed to looking slack-jawed into
a 5 gallon pail, couldn't really determine anything. For example,
I'd take the first 5 mins of each test to allow the furnace and
humidifier to run and get to a steady state condition. Do that
twice, and your entire 10 mins is up, without time to measure
anything. You never took any science lab class at all, did you?

If temp doesn't make a significant difference, then why does a warm
cup of coffee evaporate when you go outside on a cold day, while a
cold cup does not? *

How long will it take the hot cup of coffe to fully evaporate?
How long will it take the cold cup of coffe to fully evaporate?

Both will take ALMOST the time. Yes, the hot will evaporate a little
faster, but very little.



Now this is even more bizarre. * If heat has no effect like you say it
does, then why do we have heated clothes dryers? * Why not just tumble
the clothes in cold air?


That's not the same thing. The dryer puts heat into the system
continuously, not just starting with hot water.

The humdifier analogy is more like putting clothes in a dryer that
have hot water on them compared to clothes that have cold water on
them, and then operating the dryer without heat.


Again, you (and the directions) are partly correct, hot water feeding
a humidifer will evaprote a LITTLE faster, but I am saying the
difference is small. Do any of the directions say HOW MUCH hot water
will increase the capacity, no they don't becasue it is true it
increases, but a very small amount. Compare the "specific heat" of
water to the "latent heat of vaporization". Please look up those
terms. I don't want to agrue with you about this... take care..

Mark

On Feb 8, 10:25*pm, wrote:
If temp doesn't make a significant difference, then why does a warm
cup of coffee evaporate when you go outside on a cold day, while a
cold cup does not? *

How long will it take the hot cup of coffe to fully evaporate?
How long will it take the cold cup of coffe to fully evaporate?

Both will take ALMOST the time. *Yes, the hot will evaporate a little
faster, but very little.

Now this is even more bizarre. * If heat has no effect like you say it
does, then why do we have heated clothes dryers? * Why not just tumble
the clothes in cold air?

That's not the same thing. *The dryer puts heat into the system
continuously, not just starting with hot water.

*The humdifier analogy is more like putting clothes in a dryer that
have hot water on them compared to clothes that have cold water on
them, and then operating the dryer without heat.

Again, you (and the directions) are partly correct, hot water feeding
a humidifer will evaprote a LITTLE faster, but *I am saying the
difference is small. * Do any of the directions say HOW MUCH hot water
will increase the capacity, no they don't becasue it is true it
increases, but a very small amount. *Compare the "specific heat" *of
water to the "latent heat of vaporization". *Please look up those
terms. *I don't want to agrue with you about this... take care..

Mark

I'll even do the math..

Cooling 1 gallon water from 150F to 50F gives up about 834 BTU of
heat.

Vaporizing 1 gallon of water takes about 8000 BTU of heat.

So feeding the humidifer with hot water will increase its output by
about 10%.

Mark

On Feb 9, 4:39*pm, Bubba wrote:
On Mon, 9 Feb 2009 10:03:23 -0800 (PST), wrote:
On Feb 8, 10:25*pm, wrote:
If temp doesn't make a significant difference, then why does a warm
cup of coffee evaporate when you go outside on a cold day, while a
cold cup does not? *

How long will it take the hot cup of coffe to fully evaporate?
How long will it take the cold cup of coffe to fully evaporate?

Both will take ALMOST the time. *Yes, the hot will evaporate a little
faster, but very little.

Now this is even more bizarre. * If heat has no effect like you say it
does, then why do we have heated clothes dryers? * Why not just tumble
the clothes in cold air?

That's not the same thing. *The dryer puts heat into the system
continuously, not just starting with hot water.

*The humdifier analogy is more like putting clothes in a dryer that
have hot water on them compared to clothes that have cold water on
them, and then operating the dryer without heat.

Again, you (and the directions) are partly correct, hot water feeding
a humidifer will evaprote a LITTLE faster, but *I am saying the
difference is small. * Do any of the directions say HOW MUCH hot water
will increase the capacity, no they don't becasue it is true it
increases, but a very small amount. *Compare the "specific heat" *of
water to the "latent heat of vaporization". *Please look up those
terms. *I don't want to agrue with you about this... take care..

Mark

I'll even do the math..

Cooling 1 gallon water from 150F to 50F gives up about 834 BTU of
heat.

Vaporizing 1 gallon of water takes about 8000 BTU of heat.

So feeding the humidifer with hot water will increase its output by
about 10%.

Mark

Mark,
Im just asking here, not arguing.........
Using your math, it looks like the hot water giving up its energy
releases a very small amount (834btu) of heat then to the air (right?)
However, you're showing that it takes a fair amount of energy(8000btu)
to make the cold water get hot and give up its energy to the air
(right?)
Here is the problem then: To make the water hot takes a lot of energy
because you are using a water heater. Yes I know a water heater has
hot water in it already but if it doesnt have to be used then it saves
you that much money.
If you use a furnace it already has to be used whether you are going
to use a humidifier or not because you want your home warm and
comfortable. The 8,000 btu is given up to the air stream so it is not
actually lost.
Thus I still dont think it is worth using hot water for a humidifier
and what I tested did not show a 10% loss of excess water.
Your math figures may be correct, I dont know, but it just doesnt work
out that way in the real world.
Most people dont have 150 water coming out of their water heater.
Thats a lot of energy being wasted and can scald someone.
120 to 125 is normal and recommended.
It takes 2 seconds for a child to receive third degree burns from
water at 150 degrees. It takes 5 seconds if the water is at 140
degrees, and 30 seconds at 130 degrees.
Bubba- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Bubba,
I'm not sure what your question is...

I wasn't saying it's "worth it" to hook up the hot water...
I agree with you, the heat of vaporization has to come from somehwere
either way.., either all from the furnace or the 10% fom the hot water
heater and 90% from the furnace...... so it's 6 of one half a dozen of
another...

And if the hot water heater is electric and the furnace is something
cheaper, then it's probably a looser to hook up the hot water.

Mark

On Feb 9, 4:39*pm, Bubba wrote:
On Mon, 9 Feb 2009 10:03:23 -0800 (PST), wrote:
On Feb 8, 10:25*pm, wrote:
If temp doesn't make a significant difference, then why does a warm
cup of coffee evaporate when you go outside on a cold day, while a
cold cup does not? *

How long will it take the hot cup of coffe to fully evaporate?
How long will it take the cold cup of coffe to fully evaporate?

Both will take ALMOST the time. *Yes, the hot will evaporate a little
faster, but very little.

Now this is even more bizarre. * If heat has no effect like you say it
does, then why do we have heated clothes dryers? * Why not just tumble
the clothes in cold air?

That's not the same thing. *The dryer puts heat into the system
continuously, not just starting with hot water.

*The humdifier analogy is more like putting clothes in a dryer that
have hot water on them compared to clothes that have cold water on
them, and then operating the dryer without heat.

Again, you (and the directions) are partly correct, hot water feeding
a humidifer will evaprote a LITTLE faster, but *I am saying the
difference is small. * Do any of the directions say HOW MUCH hot water
will increase the capacity, no they don't becasue it is true it
increases, but a very small amount. *Compare the "specific heat" *of
water to the "latent heat of vaporization". *Please look up those
terms. *I don't want to agrue with you about this... take care..

Mark

I'll even do the math..

Cooling 1 gallon water from 150F to 50F gives up about 834 BTU of
heat.

Vaporizing 1 gallon of water takes about 8000 BTU of heat.

So feeding the humidifer with hot water will increase its output by
about 10%.

Mark

Mark,
Im just asking here, not arguing.........
Using your math, it looks like the hot water giving up its energy
releases a very small amount (834btu) of heat then to the air (right?)
However, you're showing that it takes a fair amount of energy(8000btu)
to make the cold water get hot and give up its energy to the air
(right?)

Huh?


Here is the problem then: To make the water hot takes a lot of energy
because you are using a water heater. Yes I know a water heater has
hot water in it already but if it doesnt have to be used then it saves
you that much money.
If you use a furnace it already has to be used whether you are going
to use a humidifier or not because you want your home warm and
comfortable. The 8,000 btu is given up to the air stream so it is not
actually lost.


Your science gets worse by the minute. Whatever heat it takes it has
to come from somewhere. If the heat is provided by the furnace then
there is that much less heat available to raise the temp of the air.
It's heating water instead of air. If it's provided by the water
heater, then the energy comes from the gas burned in the water
heater. We already went through that and you compared it to heating
a cup of water with a propane torch vs the exhause from a jet
engine. Which of course is ludicrous, because those two are nowhere
near as efficient methods, so of course there is a huge difference.
In the case under discussion here, heating water whether in the water
heater or via the furnace is in the same ballpark in efficiency.




Thus I still dont think it is worth using hot water for a humidifier
and what I tested did not show a 10% loss of excess water.
Your math figures may be correct, I dont know, but it just doesnt work
out that way in the real world.
Most people dont have 150 water coming out of their water heater.
Thats a lot of energy being wasted and can scald someone.
120 to 125 is normal and recommended.

Who cares whether it's 120 or 150. The obvious point is that it's a
lot higher than 40 or 50 deg deg cold water.



It takes 2 seconds for a child to receive third degree burns from
water at 150 degrees. It takes 5 seconds if the water is at 140
degrees, and 30 seconds at 130 degrees.
Bubba- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Feb 9, 11:25*pm, wrote:
Mark,
Im just asking here, not arguing.........
Using your math, it looks like the hot water giving up its energy
releases a very small amount (834btu) of heat then to the air (right?)
However, you're showing that it takes a fair amount of energy(8000btu)
to make the cold water get hot and give up its energy to the air
(right?)
Here is the problem then: To make the water hot takes a lot of energy
because you are using a water heater. Yes I know a water heater has
hot water in it already but if it doesnt have to be used then it saves
you that much money.
If you use a furnace it already has to be used whether you are going
to use a humidifier or not because you want your home warm and
comfortable. The 8,000 btu is given up to the air stream so it is not
actually lost.
Thus I still dont think it is worth using hot water for a humidifier
and what I tested did not show a 10% loss of excess water.
Your math figures may be correct, I dont know, but it just doesnt work
out that way in the real world.
Most people dont have 150 water coming out of their water heater.
Thats a lot of energy being wasted and can scald someone.
120 to 125 is normal and recommended.
It takes 2 seconds for a child to receive third degree burns from
water at 150 degrees. It takes 5 seconds if the water is at 140
degrees, and 30 seconds at 130 degrees.
Bubba- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Bubba,
I'm not sure what your question is...


Nor is anyone else.




I wasn't saying it's "worth it" to hook up the hot water...
I agree with you, the heat of vaporization has to come from somehwere
either way.., either all from the furnace or the 10% fom the hot water
heater and 90% from the furnace...... so it's 6 of one half a dozen of
another...


But Bubba doesn't say that at all. He says the energy is a free ride
if all comes from the furnace, since the furnace is running anyway.
I agree with you Mark, that energy wise, it's close to a wash.
Either the energy to heat the water comes partially from the water
heater or all from the furnace. But either way, assuming the same
fuel, the energy cost is close, because both have efficiencies in the
same ballpark.



And if the hot water heater is electric and the furnace is something
cheaper, then it's probably a looser to hook up the hot water.

I would agree with that.

In fact, I think we agree on everything, except exactly how much more
water evaporates in the humidifier using hot. You think it's not
significant, but I and Aprilaire, think it is. I understand your
point about how much heat is necessary to change the phase of water
from liquid to vapor and how that heat is much larger than the heat to
raise the water's temp. It's a very good point. However, my point
is that evaporation using an air flow device like the humidifier is
not as simple as just a phase change. It's a complex process
involving mass transfer by the air too, which is a complex
problem. To get those water molecules off the panel, all that has
to happen is to have the fastest moving ones at the surface escape the
surface tension of the water. The more energy those surface
molecules have, the more likely they will be caught up and swept away
by the fast moving air at the boundary layer..

Let me ask you this question. Let's say water enters the top of a
rectangular distribution panel in the humidifier, which is about a
foot long, and flows vertically down via gravity Let's say it's at
130 deg when it enters. Bubba claims the water has completely
cooled before it's even reached the top of the distribution tray,
which is to say it's cooled in just 1/2" inch while still in a pencil
size stream. I'd say the temp drops more slowly, and the water temp
could be higher using hot water for a good ways down the panel.
Maybe 1/2 way down. So you have a temp gradient going down the
panel from 130 to whatever the final stead-state temp is going to be,
let's say for discussion that it's 90 deg.

In the case of using cold water, you have the opposite. Water is
entering at 40 deg and going up to 90 deg for some portion of the
panel. Eventually, it rises to the same steady state temp, of 90
deg. So, in once case you have water at an avg temp of 110 for a good
portion of the panel. In the other case, you have water at 65 deg
for a good portion of the panel. I think that portion of the panel is
large enough that this temp difference makes a significant difference
in how much water evaporates. In the case of using the 130 deg
water, how far down the panel do you think the water goes before it
reaches the steady state temp?

Also, regarding evaporation rates and temperature, it's well known
that water evaporation rates over the tropical oceans are
significantly higher than they are over cooler oceans. If water temp
has only a negligible effect on rates of evaporation, how can this
be? The ocean temps vary by far less than the 130 deg vs 40 deg we
have with the humidifier example.









Mark- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hi Trader...

snip

And if the hot water heater is electric and the furnace is something
cheaper, then it's probably a looser to hook up the hot water.

I would agree with that.

In fact, I think we agree on everything, except exactly how much more
water evaporates in the humidifier using hot. *


OK we agree that you need a certain amount of heat to evaporate say 1
gallon of water and that heat has to come from either the furnace or
the hot water heater... ok..





You think it's not
significant, but I and Aprilaire, think it is. * I understand your
point about how much heat is necessary to change the phase of water
from liquid to vapor and how that heat is much larger than the heat to
raise the water's temp. * It's a very good point. *However, my point
is that evaporation using an air flow device like the humidifier is
not as simple as just a phase change. * It's a complex process
involving mass transfer by the air too, which is a complex
problem. * * To get those water molecules off the panel, all that has
to happen is to have the fastest moving ones at the surface escape the
surface tension of the water. * The more energy those surface
molecules have, the more likely they will be caught up and swept away
by the fast moving air at the boundary layer..

Let me ask you this question. * Let's say water enters the top of a
rectangular distribution panel in the humidifier, which is about a
foot long, and flows vertically down via gravity *Let's say it's at
130 deg when it enters. * * Bubba claims the water has completely
cooled before it's even reached the top of the distribution tray,
which is to say it's cooled in just 1/2" inch while still in a pencil
size stream. *I'd say the temp drops more slowly, and the water temp
could be higher using hot water for a good ways down the panel.
Maybe 1/2 way down. * *So you have a temp gradient going down the
panel from 130 to whatever the final stead-state temp is going to be,
let's say for discussion that it's 90 deg.

In the case of using cold water, you have the opposite. *Water is
entering at 40 deg and going up to 90 deg for some portion of the
panel. * Eventually, it rises to the same steady state temp, of 90
deg. *So, in once case you have water at an avg temp of 110 for a good
portion of the panel. * In the other case, you have water at 65 deg
for a good portion of the panel. *I think that portion of the panel is
large enough that this temp difference makes a significant difference
in how much water evaporates. * * In the case of using the 130 deg
water, how far down the panel do you think the water goes before it
reaches the steady state temp?


I agree that the hotter the water IS in the panal, the faster it
evaporates..

I think we disagree on this part.. I think (similar as Bubba) that if
you feed hot water, it will cool off very quickly as it starts to
evaporate.. in other words the initial heat energy in the hot feed
water will be used up fast since it's only 10% of the total
needed... and after that inital 10% energy is used up, the water
will be the same temp (and evaporate at the same rate) as it would if
cold water fed in at the top. I think your estimate that the water
will take 1/2 the panel to cool is wrong becasue you have to remember
that evaporating water sucks up a very large amount of heat. So 8000
BTU are needed to evaporate a gallon. And the hot water supplies an
extra 800...

So I thik we agree that the water temperature DOES indicate how fast
the water is evaporating, but we don't agree how hot the water will be
in the panel. This make the experiment easier if you want to do it.
You just have to determine the water temp in the panel... I think it
will be nearly the same regardless of how hot the feed water is. The
temp of the water in the tray will be determined by the furnace air
temp and how fast the air is blowing etc. As you said it is
complex... but from an energy point of view.... we know you need a
total of 8000 BTU to evaporate a gallon. The feed water being hot to
start with supplies only an extra 800 BTU. The remaining 7200 BTU
still has to come from the furnace.

I also agree it is complex, things like the size of the spray droplets
and the air and all kinds of things effect how fast the water will
evaporate. But in the end 8000 BTU will be consumed per gallon and I
think an extra 800 BTU head start still amounts to only 10%
improvment.

If you were blowing air at 500 miles per hour, yes a lot more water
would evaporate a lot faster but the 800 BTU from the hot water feed
would just get used up that much more quickly...it's still 10% of the
total per gallon..

Think about the clothes dryer analogy. You put in clothes that are
wet. In one case the clothes are wet with hot water. In another
they are wet with cold water. After a short time, the hot water
clothes are going to be nearly the same temp as the cold water
clothes. And we agree that the temp effects the rate of evap so if
the temp is nearly the same, the rate of evap is nearly the same.

I think the thing you are stuck on is the hot water is heated only
once. If you could put the hot water heater ELEMENT in the humidifer
so you could add lots and lots of BTU all the time, as the water
evaporated and used them up you could replace them from the
element ...then YES I would agree with you it woould make a big
difference. But that's not the case we have here. The water is
heated only one shot and therefore it can carry about 800 BTU per
gallon and that is only about 10% of what is needed to evaporate it..

OK???

And I want to thank you for having a civil discussion without name
calling...
Many folks on newsgroups can't seem to do that.

Mark

On Feb 10, 7:32*pm, Bubba wrote:
On Mon, 9 Feb 2009 20:25:48 -0800 (PST), wrote:
On Feb 9, 4:39*pm, Bubba wrote:
On Mon, 9 Feb 2009 10:03:23 -0800 (PST), wrote:
On Feb 8, 10:25*pm, wrote:
If temp doesn't make a significant difference, then why does a warm
cup of coffee evaporate when you go outside on a cold day, while a
cold cup does not? *

How long will it take the hot cup of coffe to fully evaporate?
How long will it take the cold cup of coffe to fully evaporate?

Both will take ALMOST the time. *Yes, the hot will evaporate a little
faster, but very little.

Now this is even more bizarre. * If heat has no effect like you say it
does, then why do we have heated clothes dryers? * Why not just tumble
the clothes in cold air?

That's not the same thing. *The dryer puts heat into the system
continuously, not just starting with hot water.

*The humdifier analogy is more like putting clothes in a dryer that
have hot water on them compared to clothes that have cold water on
them, and then operating the dryer without heat.

Again, you (and the directions) are partly correct, hot water feeding
a humidifer will evaprote a LITTLE faster, but *I am saying the
difference is small. * Do any of the directions say HOW MUCH hot water
will increase the capacity, no they don't becasue it is true it
increases, but a very small amount. *Compare the "specific heat" *of
water to the "latent heat of vaporization". *Please look up those
terms. *I don't want to agrue with you about this... take care..

Mark

I'll even do the math..

Cooling 1 gallon water from 150F to 50F gives up about 834 BTU of
heat.

Vaporizing 1 gallon of water takes about 8000 BTU of heat.

So feeding the humidifer with hot water will increase its output by
about 10%.

Mark

Mark,
Im just asking here, not arguing.........
Using your math, it looks like the hot water giving up its energy
releases a very small amount (834btu) of heat then to the air (right?)
However, you're showing that it takes a fair amount of energy(8000btu)
to make the cold water get hot and give up its energy to the air
(right?)
Here is the problem then: To make the water hot takes a lot of energy
because you are using a water heater. Yes I know a water heater has
hot water in it already but if it doesnt have to be used then it saves
you that much money.
If you use a furnace it already has to be used whether you are going
to use a humidifier or not because you want your home warm and
comfortable. The 8,000 btu is given up to the air stream so it is not
actually lost.
Thus I still dont think it is worth using hot water for a humidifier
and what I tested did not show a 10% loss of excess water.
Your math figures may be correct, I dont know, but it just doesnt work
out that way in the real world.
Most people dont have 150 water coming out of their water heater.
Thats a lot of energy being wasted and can scald someone.
120 to 125 is normal and recommended.
It takes 2 seconds for a child to receive third degree burns from
water at 150 degrees. It takes 5 seconds if the water is at 140
degrees, and 30 seconds at 130 degrees.
Bubba- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Bubba,
I'm not sure what your question is...

Mark,
I guess I wasnt really asking a question even though I started the
sentence of say "Im just asking..."
I think really I was just stating what I see happening.
What Id really like to see is someone like Aprilaire show me just how
much water is being evaporated using hot water.
Actually Im meeting with my Aprilaire rep on Friday for breakfast.
I'll see if he can get one of the higher ups at Aprilaire to get me
some kind of facts or written info on the use of hot water with
humidifiers.



I wasn't saying it's "worth it" to hook up the hot water...
I agree with you, the heat of vaporization has to come from somehwere
either way.., either all from the furnace or the 10% fom the hot water
heater and 90% from the furnace...... so it's 6 of one half a dozen of
another...

And if the hot water heater is electric and the furnace is something
cheaper, then it's probably a looser to hook up the hot water.

Mark

Yeah, maybe a better explaination would be using an oil fired hot
water heater to heat water as opposed to using a gas furnace to heat
the air and transfer that heat to the water. I know I didnt bring up
that scenario but trader acts like it doesnt matter how you do it. One
way or the other it costs almost the same. I disagree. Thats why I
brought up the jet engine heating the cup and a small torch (or
whatever I said). Maybe just maybe that explaination makes it a little
clearer? I doubt it for someone here though.
Bubba- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I think you and Trader actually agree in principal that using hot
water makes at least some small difference. Trader thinks it makes a
big diff and you (and I) think it makes only a little diff. My rough
cut math says its about 10% and you would never notice that without
some kind of measurement.

It would be interesting to see if the rep from Aprilare gives you a
number.

I also think we all agree thats it's a matter of the water temperature
inside the humdifier.., if Trader can agree (or measure) that the
water temp is about the same, then we can all go have a beer.

Mark

replying to borealbushman, Steve's Heating Gaylord Michigan wrote:
borealbushman wrote:

It's 13F outside and our new geothermal system is working very well
(and inexpensively); however, the air in our house is drier than we'd
like.
The installer suggests that a steam-generating humidifier is the only
way to go because of the geothermal system's lower operating
temperature. My research indicates that steam-generating humidifiers
use a lot of power (similar to keeping a kettle plugged in for hours
on end), waste a considerable amount of water down the drain, and
suffer from orifice-clogging when used with well water. I don't want
to deal with any of these (especially with water down the drain - we
don't have a drain in the basement floor).
So ... has anyone out there had success/failure with other kinds of
whole-house humidifiers connected to geothermal units?
(Please, I don't want to hear from folks who "...know someone who..."
or "...heard somewhere..." or do not have a geothermal system
themselves)


I have been in Residential HVAC for 30yrs, Most of them servicing
geothermal......


The output of any humidifier is based on having a minimum temp of
air going across the pad/panel etc , the warmer the air, the more water it
can hold, which equals the more moisture it will evaporate in a single
pass. Geothermal units operate at lower outlet temps than gas fired
equipment, therefore you need to select a humidifier which been
manufactured to add more humidity at these lower temps.....there are
many ways in which they operate, (steam, fan power assist, direct mist
etc...) All of these have specific operating conditions, such as existing
duct layouts, (to prevent water accumulating on duct surfaces etc).....
so be sure to hire a company with experience with these special
humidifiers, because if the requirements for the installation of these
units aren't met, at the very least, they may cause damage to the
equipment. Uncontrolled water contact can cause indoor mold issues.

Always hire a licensed/insured contractor.........always.

--

replying to trader4, Nigel wrote:
If you have an RO filter that supplies the water to the humidifier, you have
to connect it to cold water. Hot water destroys the RO element.

--
for full context, visit http://www.homeownershub.com/mainten...al-357626-.htm