On 4/27/2012 7:15 AM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On 27 Apr 2012 12:15:40 GMT, wrote:

On 2012-04-27, Percival P. wrote:

In addition, HOA rules often outlaw "radio transmitting equipment,"
which logically means no cell phones, cordless phones, baby monitors,
wiFi, garage door openers, etc.

....and amateur radio (ham) or TV antennas. Ham magazines often have
articles on howto make disguised or construct hidden antennas.

Why?

I don't believe you can regulate "radio transmitting equipment".

HOAs regulate antennas that are visible (like solar panels). Long
distance transmissions are below 30MHz, often far below. The antennas
are large and likely to be visible on the outside. Those visible
antennas would an eyesore that would strain the sensibility of
neighbors (just like the solar panels) and thus HOAs might restrict them.

You might hide antennas (as notbob suggests) as something that is
permitted, maybe a flag pole.

Municipal zoning may try to limit ham antennas. Courts have said
antennas are the jurisdiction of the FCC, not municipal zoning.

HOAs get away with it because there is a contract that is extorted from
potential residents.

--
bud--

On 04/29/12 12:39 am, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:

Ridiculous suit that has no merit. When you buy a
home in a HOA community, you know and agree to
the HOA having control over certain aspects of what
you can do with your property. If you don't want that
arrangement, then you simply buy somewhere else.
If you do buy, then you are bound by the convenants
imposed and if they include control over what the
exterior looks like, then too bad, so sad, but you're
gonna lose.

Several years ago I read a report that somebody asked to see the HOA
rules for a subdivision in which he was thinking of buying a property
but was told that they were proprietary information and that he wouldn't
be allowed to see them until he had bought the property and become a member.

We've all heard that before; "we have to pass this law before we can see what
is in it".

In addition, HOA rules often outlaw "radio transmitting equipment,"
which logically means no cell phones, cordless phones, baby monitors,
wiFi, garage door openers, etc.

Which they have no jurisdiction over. Do you believe they have the power to
allow slavery, too?

When one agrees to join a(n) HOA (by buying the property), one is bound
by the rules: it's considered to be a private contract entered into
freely that governments will not overrule. What about the ex-Marine
whose HOA took him to court and won because he was flying a US flag
larger than the rules permitted?

So you do believe that an HOA can allow slavery.

No, but in dealing with amateur radio antennas, the FCC explicitly
declined to make rules that override CC&Rs and HOA rules.

Perce

On Sun, 29 Apr 2012 15:23:39 -0400, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote:

On 04/29/12 12:39 am, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:

Ridiculous suit that has no merit. When you buy a
home in a HOA community, you know and agree to
the HOA having control over certain aspects of what
you can do with your property. If you don't want that
arrangement, then you simply buy somewhere else.
If you do buy, then you are bound by the convenants
imposed and if they include control over what the
exterior looks like, then too bad, so sad, but you're
gonna lose.

Several years ago I read a report that somebody asked to see the HOA
rules for a subdivision in which he was thinking of buying a property
but was told that they were proprietary information and that he wouldn't
be allowed to see them until he had bought the property and become a member.

We've all heard that before; "we have to pass this law before we can see what
is in it".

In addition, HOA rules often outlaw "radio transmitting equipment,"
which logically means no cell phones, cordless phones, baby monitors,
wiFi, garage door openers, etc.

Which they have no jurisdiction over. Do you believe they have the power to
allow slavery, too?

When one agrees to join a(n) HOA (by buying the property), one is bound
by the rules: it's considered to be a private contract entered into
freely that governments will not overrule. What about the ex-Marine
whose HOA took him to court and won because he was flying a US flag
larger than the rules permitted?

So you do believe that an HOA can allow slavery.

No, but in dealing with amateur radio antennas, the FCC explicitly
declined to make rules that override CC&Rs and HOA rules.

I didn't realize that ham antennas were excluded. Apparently only antennas
for commercial telecommunication services are included in the ban, ban. Dumb.

On Apr 25, 9:27*am, notbob wrote:

I think a lot of this was due to old technology.

Might be. But just as likely it could be the Gestapo attitude a lot
of associations adopt. Several years ago the city of Wichita, in an
attempt to suck up to an "exclusive" neighborhood went way out of its
way to dress up a water pumping facility on the edge but OUTSIDE of
the neighborhood. They designed the facility to look like one of the
high-end homes inside of the neighborhood, right down to landscaping
and shake cedar roofing. If you were not aware of the fact that the
structure was full of pumping equipment you would not have guessed it
was not another expensive home.

A few years ago the structure was needing a new roof. In order to
save some very tight funds they decided to put an attractive dark
colored metal roof on the building. Not only did it save taxpayers
installation money, it reduced insurance rates for the structure, the
city and taxpayers. As a show of appreciation for the city having
sucked their tit for 20+ years the adjacent neighborhood sued the city
and won. Remember, this plant is outside of the walled boundaries of
the neighborhood. The city was forced to remove a perfectly good and
economical roof and put shakes on the house. Why? They played
footsie with the snobs for years and it proved to be a precedent.

RonB

I used to sell dish network and had the following experience with a
HOA. My customer was ready to buy a unit but wanted Cricket.

I met with the HOA sales group and took along the FCC federal law that
allowed Dishes.

The HOA people said our rules overide the federal standard. CONGRESS?

I laughed and suggested they were about to lose not only a court
case but their customer who refused to buy the high end unit.......

Eventually a compromise was reached but the HOA people despised me

On Sun, 29 Apr 2012 19:39:59 -0400, "
wrote:

I didn't realize that ham antennas were excluded. Apparently only antennas
for commercial telecommunication services are included in the ban, ban.

Dumb.

Smart IMO.

While satellite dishes are small and unobtrusive, ham antennas can be
very very large and quite ugly (though most hams see them as quite
beautiful). However I'll bet most people here don't really want a 50
foot ham tower next door. And as was previously mentioned even though
the ham interference is usually caused by poorly designed consumer
electronics, that doesn't help the poor guy who is trying to use his
expensive flatscreen.

BTW I am a ham and have had those towers in the past at previous
houses. Quite frankly it was a hassle to me just hearing all the
neighbors complaints. Some as you might imagine got nasty. I was
blamed for every sort of interference, some even when I wasn't home.
It kind of took the enjoyment out of the hobby.

So when I bought this house, I didn't worry about the HOA antenna
restrictions. I decided to go with stealth antennas. I am still able
to work the world. Course it's not as easy as when I had the big
antenna, but it just takes a little more operator skill. I've been
here over ten years now and none of my neighbors is the wiser.

But I digress. I bought in a neighborhood protected by an HOA. I knew
when I signed the papers what the rules were. For those who hate HOAs
just don't buy into one. In my area (Phoenix) you can tell the HOA
free neighborhoods just by looking...

BTW2 my HOA allows solar panels...

On Sun, 29 Apr 2012 00:42:52 -0400, "
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Apr 2012 09:49:04 -0400, dgk wrote:

On Thu, 26 Apr 2012 22:00:00 -0400, "
wrote:

On Thu, 26 Apr 2012 23:30:02 +0000 (UTC), Red Green
wrote:

"HeyBub" wrote in
news:O7mdnXeiJcfKeQrSnZ2dnUVZ_rGdnZ2d@earthlin k.com:

"The government wants you to install solar panels at your house, and
will even give you a tax break to do it. But your neighbors? Maybe
not. It's a lesson Angel and David Dobs discovered when their
homeowners association north of Atlanta denied their request to
install solar panels on their roof. Neighborhood officials said the
panels would look out of place and might lower home values..."

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/s...omeowner-group
s-16208070#.T5e33vWDl8E




At a higher level than solar panels, a home having an HOA lowers home
values.

Not buying that. There are as many, or more, who like some control over their
neighborhoods than not.

We all do to some extent. I have no HOA, but we do have zoning
requirements. I don't want someone ripping down the house next door
and building a slaughterhouse. You probably don't either. And many
homeowners in retirement communities don't want kids pounding a
basketball next to their window all day long.

Um, I'm on your side, more or less. I challenged the silly assumption that
HOAs, in general, lower property values. If that were true, builders wouldn't
start them.

My mother's community maintains all the outside of the houses
(landscaping and so on). That keeps things nice and property values
up. Nothing like a neighbor who decides that it's too much work to
paint or mow the lawn.

That's a condo, no?

I don't know the structure, it's one of those Florida things. Each
person owns their house but it's all part of a planned community. I
really like it and wouldn't mind moving there in a few years.

On 4/29/2012 10:26 AM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 29 Apr 2012 10:53:41 -0600, wrote:

On 4/27/2012 7:15 AM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On 27 Apr 2012 12:15:40 GMT, wrote:

On 2012-04-27, Percival P. wrote:

In addition, HOA rules often outlaw "radio transmitting equipment,"
which logically means no cell phones, cordless phones, baby monitors,
wiFi, garage door openers, etc.

....and amateur radio (ham) or TV antennas. Ham magazines often have
articles on howto make disguised or construct hidden antennas.

Why?

I don't believe you can regulate "radio transmitting equipment".

Me? You mean the HOA. That was my point; why disguise the antenna?

The comment should have been to Percival Cassidy a couple levels up.

...

Municipal zoning may try to limit ham antennas. Courts have said
antennas are the jurisdiction of the FCC, not municipal zoning.

The ARRL is the major association of hams in the US.
From a link on antenna restrictions at the ARRL website (QST, May 2007):
The FCC made a "declaratory ruling requiring that local zoning laws must
reasonably accommodate amateur antennas and support structures with
minimal regulation and without unreasonable restrictions. Any
regulations must constitute the minimum practical regulation to
accomplish the state or local authority’s legitimate purpose of
protecting public safety."

Hams can not erect "anything" they want to. But the power of
governmental entities to limit what a ham can build is limited.


SO you think HOAs have some power that municipal governments don't? Odd.

It is what the ARRL thinks.


HOAs get away with it because there is a contract that is extorted from
potential residents.

Nonsense. Federal laws supercede contracts.

From the same QST article:
"The FCC has been very clear that [the FCC limited preemption on
antennas] does not cover [covenants, conditions and restrictions], as
they are a private contract, not public policy issues."

HOAs are among the restrictions a ham may encounter building an antenna.

--
bud--

On 04/30/2012 01:14 AM, AJL wrote:

For those who hate HOAs
just don't buy into one.

Sadly, in some areas easier said than done. Yet another reason I don't
see myself staying in NoVA forever...

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Thursday, April 26, 2012 10:00:00 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Not buying that. There are as many, or more, who like some control over their
neighborhoods than not.

Until that control comes around and bites them in the ass by preventing them from doing something THEY want to do...

On Tue, 01 May 2012 10:21:13 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

On 04/30/2012 01:14 AM, AJL wrote:

For those who hate HOAs
just don't buy into one.

Sadly, in some areas easier said than done. Yet another reason I don't
see myself staying in NoVA forever...

Come to Phoenix. Large areas are HOA free. I lived in one for 30+
years (Maryvale for anyone familiar with the area). And as I
previously said, you can mostly tell the HOA-free areas by just
looking at them. Trouble is many people want to have their cake (be
HOA-free) and to eat it too (live in a nice well kept up
neighborhood). In my experience that seldom seems to happen...

On Tue, 1 May 2012 07:58:35 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Thursday, April 26, 2012 10:00:00 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Not buying that. There are as many, or more, who like some control over their
neighborhoods than not.

Until that control comes around and bites them in the ass by preventing them
from doing something THEY want to do...

Happens all the time here. There are 4000+ homes in my HOA so as you
can imagine there are a lot of gripes and grumbles when citations are
issued. But as I said, I (and the grumblers) knew the rules when I
signed the papers. In my case I view the HOA as a protection from my
neighbors rather than as a hindrance to myself...

AJL wrote:

Come to Phoenix. Large areas are HOA free. I lived in one for 30+
years (Maryvale for anyone familiar with the area). And as I
previously said, you can mostly tell the HOA-free areas by just
looking at them. Trouble is many people want to have their cake (be
HOA-free) and to eat it too (live in a nice well kept up
neighborhood). In my experience that seldom seems to happen...

Those neighborhoods in your town which are obviously not HOA supervised are
run exactly as the people in the neighborhood want them run. If you like
living next door to a bodega or a tire-repair shop, you'll gravitate to
locations where you have all those types of conveniences.

If, on the other hand, you prefer pristine and pretty places, you'll pick
those with HOAs or strict zoning.

The excitement arises when you like freshly-mowed lawns - and your neighbors
do as well - but some rascal in your unregulated area tries to take
advantage by opening a mini-abattoir. In that case, several options are
available to you, few of them legal but all of them effective.

Aside: I don't know why so many preach "Somebody ought to do something!"
when taking matters into one's own hands is so much easier...

On Tue, 1 May 2012 17:01:01 -0500, "HeyBub"
wrote:

AJL wrote:

Come to Phoenix. Large areas are HOA free. I lived in one for 30+
years (Maryvale for anyone familiar with the area). And as I
previously said, you can mostly tell the HOA-free areas by just
looking at them. Trouble is many people want to have their cake (be
HOA-free) and to eat it too (live in a nice well kept up
neighborhood). In my experience that seldom seems to happen...

Those neighborhoods in your town which are obviously not HOA supervised are
run exactly as the people in the neighborhood want them run. If you like
living next door to a bodega or a tire-repair shop, you'll gravitate to
locations where you have all those types of conveniences.

It's not quite that bad since there are still zoning regulations in
the HOA free areas. They are usually enforced by complaint though
there are zoning officers that roam when they're not busy. First is
usually a warning and then if there is no compliance, a citation.
Phoenix makes it easy, you can make a zoning complaint by phone, net,
or text.

some rascal in your unregulated area tries to take
advantage by opening a mini-abattoir. In that case, several options are
available to you, few of them legal but all of them effective.

Just remember that if you decide to self-enforce, and you live in the
same neighborhood, turn about may be fair (foul?) play...

On Tue, 1 May 2012 07:58:35 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Thursday, April 26, 2012 10:00:00 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Not buying that. There are as many, or more, who like some control over their
neighborhoods than not.

Until that control comes around and bites them in the ass by preventing them from doing something THEY want to do...

Irrelevant.

Come to Phoenix. Large areas are HOA free. I lived in one for 30+
years (Maryvale for anyone familiar with the area). And as I
previously said, you can mostly tell the HOA-free areas by just
looking at them. Trouble is many people want to have their cake (be
HOA-free) and to eat it too (live in a nice well kept up
neighborhood). In my experience that seldom seems to happen...

I had family who lived in maryvale. frankly i liked the brightly
colored mexican painted homes.

my dad moved to a HOA area with strict rules, the place turned into a
dump, homes in foreclosure didnt need to meet HOA rules.

my dads new home is very nice but I prefered his old home.......

the outside colors are tightly regulated and returning after a walk
one day i tried to get in his next door neighbors home. I thought my
jokester brother had locked me out....

Maryvale has crime issues whatever happened about the maryvale
cluster? high cancer rate in that area.....

On Tue, 1 May 2012 23:01:40 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

Come to Phoenix. Large areas are HOA free. I lived in one for 30+
years (Maryvale for anyone familiar with the area).

I had family who lived in maryvale. frankly i liked the brightly
colored mexican painted homes.

The Mexican flavor only arrived in the past 15 years or so. As in many
large cities the neighborhoods change over time. When I lived there
(68-2000) it started out as a normal reasonably well kept up middle
class neighborhood and slowly deteriorated, mostly toward the end of
my stay. But it still has no HOA...

Maryvale has crime issues:

Yes. I think it could almost be classed as a ghetto now. A lot of the
violent crime on the evening news seems to be in that area.

whatever happened about the maryvale
cluster? high cancer rate in that area.....

They never could prove anything definite as to a cause and the
controversy silently went away. I drank the water all those years and
am still here. Course I've had a little skin cancer but I think that's
more due to the Arizona sun than the Maryvale sun...

AJL wrote:

Those neighborhoods in your town which are obviously not HOA
supervised are run exactly as the people in the neighborhood want
them run. If you like living next door to a bodega or a tire-repair
shop, you'll gravitate to locations where you have all those types
of conveniences.

It's not quite that bad since there are still zoning regulations in
the HOA free areas. They are usually enforced by complaint though
there are zoning officers that roam when they're not busy. First is
usually a warning and then if there is no compliance, a citation.
Phoenix makes it easy, you can make a zoning complaint by phone, net,
or text.


I'm in Houston. We don't have zoning.

some rascal in your unregulated area tries to take
advantage by opening a mini-abattoir. In that case, several options
are available to you, few of them legal but all of them effective.

Just remember that if you decide to self-enforce, and you live in the
same neighborhood, turn about may be fair (foul?) play...

Good point! That's exactly why your first response has to be of such
overwhelming force as to absolutely remove both the desire and the ability
of the miscreant to respond. That is, what can we throw at his house other
than an egg?

Hmm. Here's a bottle of a flammable liquid with a rag stuffed in the spout.
Wonder if that would work?

On 05/01/2012 06:01 PM, HeyBub wrote:
AJL wrote:

Come to Phoenix. Large areas are HOA free. I lived in one for 30+
years (Maryvale for anyone familiar with the area). And as I
previously said, you can mostly tell the HOA-free areas by just
looking at them. Trouble is many people want to have their cake (be
HOA-free) and to eat it too (live in a nice well kept up
neighborhood). In my experience that seldom seems to happen...

Those neighborhoods in your town which are obviously not HOA supervised are
run exactly as the people in the neighborhood want them run. If you like
living next door to a bodega or a tire-repair shop, you'll gravitate to
locations where you have all those types of conveniences.

If, on the other hand, you prefer pristine and pretty places, you'll pick
those with HOAs or strict zoning.

The excitement arises when you like freshly-mowed lawns - and your neighbors
do as well - but some rascal in your unregulated area tries to take
advantage by opening a mini-abattoir. In that case, several options are
available to you, few of them legal but all of them effective.

Aside: I don't know why so many preach "Somebody ought to do something!"
when taking matters into one's own hands is so much easier...



In my case it's more that the HOAs expect you to be a professional sort
- which I am - but don't allow you to do normal everyday stuff like work
on a project car in your own driveway/garage, etc.

I actually bought a pickup truck from a coworker whose neighbor kind of
pressed the deal by asking "when are you going to do something about
that unsightly vehicle" presumably with a straight face. I don't think
I could ever live with neighbors like that. (it wasn't that bad,
really, it's just a plain white Ford pickup. I don't love it, but I
don't think it's that much of an eyesore, either.)

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 05/02/12 10:20 am, Nate Nagel wrote:

In my case it's more that the HOAs expect you to be a professional sort
- which I am - but don't allow you to do normal everyday stuff like work
on a project car in your own driveway/garage, etc.

I actually bought a pickup truck from a coworker whose neighbor kind of
pressed the deal by asking "when are you going to do something about
that unsightly vehicle" presumably with a straight face. I don't think I
could ever live with neighbors like that. (it wasn't that bad, really,
it's just a plain white Ford pickup. I don't love it, but I don't think
it's that much of an eyesore, either.)

I've read of two cases concerning HOAs and motor vehicles:

1. Resident got cited for changing the windshield wipers while the car
was standing in the driveway.

2. Guy bought used car and parked it in his driveway, took off old
plates, and went to the DMV (or whatever it's called there) to
re-register it and get new plates. Arrived back home with new plates to
find that his car had been towed away -- "A vehicle without plates is an
undriveable vehicle, and undriveable vehicles are prohibited by the HOA
rules from being left where they may be seen."

Perce

On Wed, 2 May 2012 06:32:29 -0500, "HeyBub"
wrote:

AJL wrote:

Those neighborhoods in your town which are obviously not HOA
supervised are run exactly as the people in the neighborhood want
them run.

It's not quite that bad since there are still zoning regulations in
the HOA free areas.

I'm in Houston. We don't have zoning.

Wow. I had no idea that there was any place as large as Houston with
no zoning laws.

Just remember that if you decide to self-enforce, and you live in the
same neighborhood, turn about may be fair (foul?) play...

Good point! That's exactly why your first response has to be of such
overwhelming force as to absolutely remove both the desire and the ability
of the miscreant to respond. That is, what can we throw at his house other
than an egg?

Hmm. Here's a bottle of a flammable liquid with a rag stuffed in the spout.
Wonder if that would work?

I now can better understand your attitude. In my case I'd rather
switch than fight. My neck is getting just too old and stiff to have
to keep looking over my shoulder...

On Wed, 02 May 2012 11:17:18 -0400, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote:

I've read of two cases concerning HOAs and motor vehicles:

1. Resident got cited for changing the windshield wipers while the car
was standing in the driveway.

2. Guy bought used car and parked it in his driveway, took off old
plates, and went to the DMV (or whatever it's called there) to
re-register it and get new plates. Arrived back home with new plates to
find that his car had been towed away -- "A vehicle without plates is an
undriveable vehicle, and undriveable vehicles are prohibited by the HOA
rules from being left where they may be seen."

Sure there are lots of horror stories about HOAs. But then there are
lots of zoning enforcement horror stories too. (Google "zoning horror
stories") Sometimes you just can't avoid bad judgement in HOAs,
zoning, governments, ect...

On Tue, 1 May 2012 23:01:40 -0700 (PDT), bob haller wrote:


Come to Phoenix. Large areas are HOA free. I lived in one for 30+
years (Maryvale for anyone familiar with the area). And as I
previously said, you can mostly tell the HOA-free areas by just
looking at them. Trouble is many people want to have their cake (be
HOA-free) and to eat it too (live in a nice well kept up
neighborhood). In my experience that seldom seems to happen...

I had family who lived in maryvale. frankly i liked the brightly
colored mexican painted homes.

my dad moved to a HOA area with strict rules, the place turned into a
dump, homes in foreclosure didnt need to meet HOA rules.

That's dumb. Force the bank to keep up the homes to the same standards as the
homeowners.

my dads new home is very nice but I prefered his old home.......

the outside colors are tightly regulated and returning after a walk
one day i tried to get in his next door neighbors home. I thought my
jokester brother had locked me out....

A couple of weeks ago I was visiting family in Columbus, OH. After driving
around for some time it hit me, all the hoses are the same color. Not just
the houses in one subdivision (no problem with that, if that's what they
decide). Every subdivision looked the same, too.


Maryvale has crime issues whatever happened about the maryvale
cluster? high cancer rate in that area.....

I love idiots who think correlation = causation.

AJL wrote:
On Wed, 02 May 2012 11:17:18 -0400, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote:

I've read of two cases concerning HOAs and motor vehicles:

1. Resident got cited for changing the windshield wipers while the car
was standing in the driveway.

2. Guy bought used car and parked it in his driveway, took off old
plates, and went to the DMV (or whatever it's called there) to
re-register it and get new plates. Arrived back home with new plates to
find that his car had been towed away -- "A vehicle without plates is an
undriveable vehicle, and undriveable vehicles are prohibited by the HOA
rules from being left where they may be seen."

Sure there are lots of horror stories about HOAs. But then there are
lots of zoning enforcement horror stories too. (Google "zoning horror
stories") Sometimes you just can't avoid bad judgement in HOAs,
zoning, governments, ect...

In my area each borough has it's own rules. Where I used to live, parking
restrictions on road, restricted parking of boats, rvs, can't park on lawn.
I can do it all now. I got houses from $75k to $350k on my street. Love
it. There are eyesores, up the road, hoarder and needing cleaning up. I
don't mind the caterpillars and dump truck either.

Yes, I have seen boring communities in other states.

Greg

gregz wrote:
AJL wrote:
On Wed, 02 May 2012 11:17:18 -0400, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote:

I've read of two cases concerning HOAs and motor vehicles:

1. Resident got cited for changing the windshield wipers while the car
was standing in the driveway.

2. Guy bought used car and parked it in his driveway, took off old
plates, and went to the DMV (or whatever it's called there) to
re-register it and get new plates. Arrived back home with new plates to
find that his car had been towed away -- "A vehicle without plates is an
undriveable vehicle, and undriveable vehicles are prohibited by the HOA
rules from being left where they may be seen."

Sure there are lots of horror stories about HOAs. But then there are
lots of zoning enforcement horror stories too. (Google "zoning horror
stories") Sometimes you just can't avoid bad judgement in HOAs,
zoning, governments, ect...

In my area each borough has it's own rules. Where I used to live, parking
restrictions on road, restricted parking of boats, rvs, can't park on lawn.
I can do it all now. I got houses from $75k to $350k on my street. Love
it. There are eyesores, up the road, hoarder and needing cleaning up. I
don't mind the caterpillars and dump truck either.

Yes, I have seen boring communities in other states.

Greg

When I moved in, ham across street had beam, 160 mtr towers, looked like 30
coaxes going into window. I'm a ham but not erected anything yet. Too busy.

Greg

gregz wrote:
gregz wrote:
AJL wrote:
On Wed, 02 May 2012 11:17:18 -0400, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote:

I've read of two cases concerning HOAs and motor vehicles:

1. Resident got cited for changing the windshield wipers while the car
was standing in the driveway.

2. Guy bought used car and parked it in his driveway, took off old
plates, and went to the DMV (or whatever it's called there) to
re-register it and get new plates. Arrived back home with new plates to
find that his car had been towed away -- "A vehicle without plates is an
undriveable vehicle, and undriveable vehicles are prohibited by the HOA
rules from being left where they may be seen."

Sure there are lots of horror stories about HOAs. But then there are
lots of zoning enforcement horror stories too. (Google "zoning horror
stories") Sometimes you just can't avoid bad judgement in HOAs,
zoning, governments, ect...

In my area each borough has it's own rules. Where I used to live, parking
restrictions on road, restricted parking of boats, rvs, can't park on lawn.
I can do it all now. I got houses from $75k to $350k on my street. Love
it. There are eyesores, up the road, hoarder and needing cleaning up. I
don't mind the caterpillars and dump truck either.

Yes, I have seen boring communities in other states.

Greg

When I moved in, ham across street had beam, 160 mtr towers, looked like 30
coaxes going into window. I'm a ham but not erected anything yet. Too busy.

Greg

Forgot my solar panels. Well, I have 3/4 acre, and most lots average 1
acre. It works here.

Greg

"AJL" wrote
Sure there are lots of horror stories about HOAs. But then there are
lots of zoning enforcement horror stories too. (Google "zoning horror
stories") Sometimes you just can't avoid bad judgement in HOAs,
zoning, governments, ect...

At least most zoning boards are a bit more professional than a bunch of busy
bodies on the HOA. I'd rather fight city hall than the self appointed
guardians of society.

On Wed, 2 May 2012 06:32:29 -0500, "HeyBub"
wrote:

AJL wrote:

Those neighborhoods in your town which are obviously not HOA
supervised are run exactly as the people in the neighborhood want
them run. If you like living next door to a bodega or a tire-repair
shop, you'll gravitate to locations where you have all those types
of conveniences.

It's not quite that bad since there are still zoning regulations in
the HOA free areas. They are usually enforced by complaint though
there are zoning officers that roam when they're not busy. First is
usually a warning and then if there is no compliance, a citation.
Phoenix makes it easy, you can make a zoning complaint by phone, net,
or text.


I'm in Houston. We don't have zoning.

some rascal in your unregulated area tries to take
advantage by opening a mini-abattoir. In that case, several options
are available to you, few of them legal but all of them effective.

Just remember that if you decide to self-enforce, and you live in the
same neighborhood, turn about may be fair (foul?) play...

Good point! That's exactly why your first response has to be of such
overwhelming force as to absolutely remove both the desire and the ability
of the miscreant to respond. That is, what can we throw at his house other
than an egg?

Hmm. Here's a bottle of a flammable liquid with a rag stuffed in the spout.
Wonder if that would work?



No zoning - how can that work? Oh, I see. They have no zoning but
have some interesting land use regulations that take the place of
zoning, apparently with worse results than zoning in some cases:

http://www.planetizen.com/node/109

On Wed, 2 May 2012 23:23:20 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:

most zoning boards are a bit more professional than a bunch of busy
bodies on the HOA.

Maybe. But I'm not sure how you would prove that. In many places both
HOA board members (mine - homeowners elected by homeowners) and zoning
boards (mine - ordinary people appointed by the city council) are
regular people with ordinary foibles. But even professional people can
sometimes do some non-sensible things.

I'd rather fight city hall than the self appointed
guardians of society.

In my area neither board is 'self appointed'.

On 05/02/2012 11:17 AM, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
On 05/02/12 10:20 am, Nate Nagel wrote:

In my case it's more that the HOAs expect you to be a professional sort
- which I am - but don't allow you to do normal everyday stuff like work
on a project car in your own driveway/garage, etc.

I actually bought a pickup truck from a coworker whose neighbor kind of
pressed the deal by asking "when are you going to do something about
that unsightly vehicle" presumably with a straight face. I don't think I
could ever live with neighbors like that. (it wasn't that bad, really,
it's just a plain white Ford pickup. I don't love it, but I don't think
it's that much of an eyesore, either.)

I've read of two cases concerning HOAs and motor vehicles:

1. Resident got cited for changing the windshield wipers while the car
was standing in the driveway.

2. Guy bought used car and parked it in his driveway, took off old
plates, and went to the DMV (or whatever it's called there) to
re-register it and get new plates. Arrived back home with new plates to
find that his car had been towed away -- "A vehicle without plates is an
undriveable vehicle, and undriveable vehicles are prohibited by the HOA
rules from being left where they may be seen."

Perce

I definitely believe both of them. The general tone of some of the
newer communities around here - and all of the newer communities are
developments, and all of the developments have a HOA - is definitely
like that.

I'd far rather deal with the potential that some of my neighbors are
going to be less than scrupulously neat - land values are such that
nobody can afford to buy a place and actually let it get run down, an
acceptable detached home, even a tiny one, starts upwards of $400K -
than deal with the possibility that someone's going to get a hair up
their butt about my doing a normal everyday activity like changing my
oil in the driveway, doing a tuneup, etc. Why would I want to live in a
place where someone could complain about things like that and
technically be in the right?

The only downside is that to avoid HOAs you're limited to very old
houses, but the good news (for me) is that I actually prefer the
character and sturdy construction of an older home, although there have
been times where I might have considered trading some of that charm for
not having to deal with, say, pulling new wiring through plaster walls,
or freezing in the winter because the exterior walls are uninsulated and
I don't want to get insulation blown in until I'm completely done with
pulling wire (to give two completely random examples.)

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Thu, 03 May 2012 09:23:35 -0700, AJL wrote:

On Wed, 2 May 2012 23:23:20 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:

most zoning boards are a bit more professional than a bunch of busy
bodies on the HOA.

Maybe. But I'm not sure how you would prove that. In many places both
HOA board members (mine - homeowners elected by homeowners) and zoning
boards (mine - ordinary people appointed by the city council) are
regular people with ordinary foibles. But even professional people can
sometimes do some non-sensible things.

I'd rather fight city hall than the self appointed
guardians of society.

In my area neither board is 'self appointed'.

At least you can vote for the members of the HOA board.

On Thu, 03 May 2012 12:27:38 -0400, Nate Nagel wrote:

On 05/02/2012 11:17 AM, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:
On 05/02/12 10:20 am, Nate Nagel wrote:

In my case it's more that the HOAs expect you to be a professional sort
- which I am - but don't allow you to do normal everyday stuff like work
on a project car in your own driveway/garage, etc.

I actually bought a pickup truck from a coworker whose neighbor kind of
pressed the deal by asking "when are you going to do something about
that unsightly vehicle" presumably with a straight face. I don't think I
could ever live with neighbors like that. (it wasn't that bad, really,
it's just a plain white Ford pickup. I don't love it, but I don't think
it's that much of an eyesore, either.)

I've read of two cases concerning HOAs and motor vehicles:

1. Resident got cited for changing the windshield wipers while the car
was standing in the driveway.

2. Guy bought used car and parked it in his driveway, took off old
plates, and went to the DMV (or whatever it's called there) to
re-register it and get new plates. Arrived back home with new plates to
find that his car had been towed away -- "A vehicle without plates is an
undriveable vehicle, and undriveable vehicles are prohibited by the HOA
rules from being left where they may be seen."

Perce

I definitely believe both of them. The general tone of some of the
newer communities around here - and all of the newer communities are
developments, and all of the developments have a HOA - is definitely
like that.

I'd far rather deal with the potential that some of my neighbors are
going to be less than scrupulously neat - land values are such that
nobody can afford to buy a place and actually let it get run down, an
acceptable detached home, even a tiny one, starts upwards of $400K -
than deal with the possibility that someone's going to get a hair up
their butt about my doing a normal everyday activity like changing my
oil in the driveway, doing a tuneup, etc. Why would I want to live in a
place where someone could complain about things like that and
technically be in the right?

You can't change oil in your garage? Don't get me wrong, some HOAs are
totally bonkers but the idea isn't a bad one. Both of my houses are in
subdivision that have HOAs. Unfortunately the builder runs both of them (one
isn't built out and the other, he has houses he's renting so doesn't believe
he has to give it up because they aren't "sold"). This can be good and bad.
No busybodies to worry about but also there is no meaningful vote.

The only downside is that to avoid HOAs you're limited to very old
houses, but the good news (for me) is that I actually prefer the
character and sturdy construction of an older home, although there have
been times where I might have considered trading some of that charm for
not having to deal with, say, pulling new wiring through plaster walls,
or freezing in the winter because the exterior walls are uninsulated and
I don't want to get insulation blown in until I'm completely done with
pulling wire (to give two completely random examples.)

I'm the opposite. I have enough projects on a new house. I don't need to beg
for more.

On Thu, 03 May 2012 22:33:14 -0400, "
wrote:

On Thu, 03 May 2012 09:23:35 -0700, AJL wrote:

On Wed, 2 May 2012 23:23:20 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:

most zoning boards are a bit more professional than a bunch of busy
bodies on the HOA.

Maybe. But I'm not sure how you would prove that. In many places both
HOA board members (mine - homeowners elected by homeowners) and zoning
boards (mine - ordinary people appointed by the city council) are
regular people with ordinary foibles. But even professional people can
sometimes do some non-sensible things.

I'd rather fight city hall than the self appointed
guardians of society.

In my area neither board is 'self appointed'.

At least you can vote for the members of the HOA board.

And of course I can vote indirectly for the zoning board by voting
for city council members.

Or both boards at the same time since the mayor is in my HOA...

But in reality my vote is really pretty much worthless, 1 out of 4000+
for the HOA and 1 out of 60K+ in the city, so I save time by staying
home.

On Thu, 03 May 2012 19:54:07 -0700, AJL wrote:

On Thu, 03 May 2012 22:33:14 -0400, "
wrote:

On Thu, 03 May 2012 09:23:35 -0700, AJL wrote:

On Wed, 2 May 2012 23:23:20 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:

most zoning boards are a bit more professional than a bunch of busy
bodies on the HOA.

Maybe. But I'm not sure how you would prove that. In many places both
HOA board members (mine - homeowners elected by homeowners) and zoning
boards (mine - ordinary people appointed by the city council) are
regular people with ordinary foibles. But even professional people can
sometimes do some non-sensible things.

I'd rather fight city hall than the self appointed
guardians of society.

In my area neither board is 'self appointed'.

At least you can vote for the members of the HOA board.

And of course I can vote indirectly for the zoning board by voting
for city council members.

Every level of indirection means less control. There are also more issues
involved in city government.

Or both boards at the same time since the mayor is in my HOA...

The president?

But in reality my vote is really pretty much worthless, 1 out of 4000+
for the HOA and 1 out of 60K+ in the city, so I save time by staying
home.

Then you're part of the problem.

On Thu, 03 May 2012 23:20:46 -0400, "
wrote:

On Thu, 03 May 2012 19:54:07 -0700, AJL wrote:

On Thu, 03 May 2012 22:33:14 -0400, "
wrote:

On Thu, 03 May 2012 09:23:35 -0700, AJL wrote:

On Wed, 2 May 2012 23:23:20 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:

most zoning boards are a bit more professional than a bunch of busy
bodies on the HOA.

Maybe. But I'm not sure how you would prove that. In many places both
HOA board members (mine - homeowners elected by homeowners) and zoning
boards (mine - ordinary people appointed by the city council) are
regular people with ordinary foibles. But even professional people can
sometimes do some non-sensible things.

I'd rather fight city hall than the self appointed
guardians of society.

In my area neither board is 'self appointed'.

At least you can vote for the members of the HOA board.

And of course I can vote indirectly for the zoning board by voting
for city council members.

Every level of indirection means less control. There are also more issues
involved in city government.

Or both boards at the same time since the mayor is in my HOA...

The president?

But in reality my vote is really pretty much worthless, 1 out of 4000+
for the HOA and 1 out of 60K+ in the city, so I save time by staying
home.

Then you're part of the problem.

Ah, but it means that my vote is more important.

On Thu, 03 May 2012 23:20:46 -0400, "
wrote:

On Thu, 03 May 2012 19:54:07 -0700, AJL wrote:

But in reality my vote is really pretty much worthless, 1 out of 4000+
for the HOA and 1 out of 60K+ in the city, so I save time by staying
home.

Then you're part of the problem.

What problem? The outcome is always the same whether I vote or not...

On Fri, 04 May 2012 09:18:49 -0400, dgk wrote:

On Thu, 03 May 2012 23:20:46 -0400, "
wrote:

On Thu, 03 May 2012 19:54:07 -0700, AJL wrote:

On Thu, 03 May 2012 22:33:14 -0400, "
wrote:

On Thu, 03 May 2012 09:23:35 -0700, AJL wrote:

On Wed, 2 May 2012 23:23:20 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:

most zoning boards are a bit more professional than a bunch of busy
bodies on the HOA.

Maybe. But I'm not sure how you would prove that. In many places both
HOA board members (mine - homeowners elected by homeowners) and zoning
boards (mine - ordinary people appointed by the city council) are
regular people with ordinary foibles. But even professional people can
sometimes do some non-sensible things.

I'd rather fight city hall than the self appointed
guardians of society.

In my area neither board is 'self appointed'.

At least you can vote for the members of the HOA board.

And of course I can vote indirectly for the zoning board by voting
for city council members.

Every level of indirection means less control. There are also more issues
involved in city government.

Or both boards at the same time since the mayor is in my HOA...

The president?

But in reality my vote is really pretty much worthless, 1 out of 4000+
for the HOA and 1 out of 60K+ in the city, so I save time by staying
home.

Then you're part of the problem.

Ah, but it means that my vote is more important.

You're also a loon.

On Fri, 04 May 2012 14:44:28 -0700, AJL wrote:

On Thu, 03 May 2012 23:20:46 -0400, "
wrote:

On Thu, 03 May 2012 19:54:07 -0700, AJL wrote:

But in reality my vote is really pretty much worthless, 1 out of 4000+
for the HOA and 1 out of 60K+ in the city, so I save time by staying
home.

Then you're part of the problem.

What problem? The outcome is always the same whether I vote or not...

Please don't. The more morons there are like you, the better it is for
everyone else.

On Fri, 04 May 2012 22:35:38 -0400, "
wrote:

On Fri, 04 May 2012 14:44:28 -0700, AJL wrote:

On Thu, 03 May 2012 23:20:46 -0400, "
wrote:

On Thu, 03 May 2012 19:54:07 -0700, AJL wrote:

But in reality my vote is really pretty much worthless, 1 out of 4000+
for the HOA and 1 out of 60K+ in the city, so I save time by staying
home.

Then you're part of the problem.

What problem? The outcome is always the same whether I vote or not...

Please don't. The more morons there are like you, the better it is for
everyone else.

I want to apologize to AJL. He has a perfectly good and logical
argument and since I couldn't figure a way to refute it I degraded to
name calling. Now I know that it doesn't take much intelligence to
name call and perhaps that's why I do it so much here, but I now want
to turn over a new leaf. I just want the group to know how much I love
and appreciate you guys and I'll try to clean up my act from now on.

Love and xxx
zzzzzzzzzz

On Fri, 04 May 2012 20:14:31 -0700, "
wrote:

On Fri, 04 May 2012 22:35:38 -0400, "
wrote:

On Fri, 04 May 2012 14:44:28 -0700, AJL wrote:

On Thu, 03 May 2012 23:20:46 -0400, "
wrote:

On Thu, 03 May 2012 19:54:07 -0700, AJL wrote:

But in reality my vote is really pretty much worthless, 1 out of 4000+
for the HOA and 1 out of 60K+ in the city, so I save time by staying
home.

Then you're part of the problem.

What problem? The outcome is always the same whether I vote or not...

Please don't. The more morons there are like you, the better it is for
everyone else.

I want to apologize to AJL. He has a perfectly good and logical
argument and since I couldn't figure a way to refute it I degraded to
name calling. Now I know that it doesn't take much intelligence to
name call and perhaps that's why I do it so much here, but I now want
to turn over a new leaf. I just want the group to know how much I love
and appreciate you guys and I'll try to clean up my act from now on.

Love and xxx


Only a total moron would even attempt such a fraud.