"Attila.Iskander" wrote in
:


"Han" wrote in message
...
"Attila.Iskander" wrote in
:


"Han" wrote in message
...
" wrote in
:

On 26 Mar 2012 11:01:44 GMT, Han wrote:

Nothing really serious that I know about. Plenty of scuffles.
Around that time they also changed the label of the outfit to
"police" from security guard. If you ever get to First Ave & 23rd
Str, NYC, make a visit and ask to see the confiscated weapons.

Oh, good grief. A law makes the criminals play nice. You are a
dreamer.

It's called self-defense. Or don't you agree that preventing is
better than resurrecting?


Disarming the law-abiding is NOT "self-defense" by even the most
twisted definition

It would be insane (yes, really insane) to allow everyone, who wanted
to do so, to enter a VA hospital with a firearm or even a pocket
knife.

At least that's what YOU believe.



There are many veterans who (wrongly) are under the impression that
they weren't treated properly, or could have been treated better.
And most likely, some of them are correct. One cannot determine
whether a person
has the potential to do harm to an employee just by looking at them.


So basically you imagine that it's right to limit the rights of
EVERYONE because of a few possible problems

While you're at it, limit the right to free speech, because you have a
few who abuse it
And while you're at it, limit freedom of religion, after al, there
were a few who flew some planes into towers, and cut off peoples heads
because of their religion
And don't' forget the right to be free of unwarranted searches,
because of a few people who hid their criminals activities behind
it...




If you believe that it would be proper to allow everyone, who wanted
to do so, to enter a VA hospital with a firearm, then you are indeed
insane.


I'm not insane
But you are a VERY POOR understanding of what a free country with
RIGHTS is actually supposed to mean.
Apparently you didn't pay attention in civics class.

But at least now I understand VERY CLEARLY that in your world, anyone
who is on the side of respecting constitutional Rights qualifies as
"insane" in your world.
And why, because according to you, it's much smarter to abrogate the
rights of EVERYONE, instead of making the effort to solve the problems
caused by a VERY few...

Yes, I indeed resented the fact that my tiny swiss arny knife was not
permitted. And I'm really very sorry to see that you think it would be
OK to let people carrying guns into the hospital, if there was really
only 1 or 2 who meant harm to an employee.

Oh, I'm don't think we had anything resembling civics class in our Dutch
schools. Maybe some of that came in my cub scout meetings. Maybe I am
who I am because of that lack? On the other hand, a good friend on the
far right called me a good person, despite my liking of FDR, and general
dislike for organized religion ...

Oh yes, I'll never forget what my believing mother said: God put you on
this world to do good.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

" wrote in
:

On 27 Mar 2012 18:52:58 GMT, Han wrote:

" wrote in
m:

On 27 Mar 2012 12:11:53 GMT, Han wrote:
snip
You're absolutely crazy if you say that people should be allowed to
enter the VA Hospital in Manhattan with weapons. I just explained it.

Why?

I explained it in the other part of our discussions.

No, you certainly didn't.

Sorry, can't do any better.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

"Attila.Iskander" wrote in
:


"Han" wrote in message
...
snip
You're absolutely crazy if you say that people should be allowed to
enter the VA Hospital in Manhattan with weapons. I just explained
it.


Sure you did
It's the old
"Lets' curtail EVERYBODY's rights because of a few possible
problems.
And if you disagree, YOU are insane"
argument.

Well, if you believe that we should let some crazy people kill a few
doctors and nurses because otherwise we infringe on the right to carry
guns, then you're right, then I am crazy.

But I do NOT BELIEVE that we should let those doctors and nurses die, and
that keeping weapons out of the hospital is a "good thing™".


--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

"Attila.Iskander" wrote in
:


"Han" wrote in message
...
snip
If some people manage to live their lives in peace without the need
for firearms, that isn't insane. Your perceived need for firearms
is, perhaps. But that is my opinion, and I'm sure you'd disagree.

Ostrich "Can't happen to me since it hasn't happened yet "attitude

Has worked so far. Maybe I'm good at preventing myself from getting into
bad situations, maybe it was just dumb luck.

I had been planning on perhaps vacationing in some other states in
the US, such as Arizona, Utah, New Mexico. Just a simple question:
Will I be in any more danger without a firearm than in Washington
State? I know I'll be safe anywhere here in the North-East, and I
haven't had any problems in Florida either.

You haven't looked at crime statistics recently, have you
We ARE ALL exposed to some risk of being the victim of a crime.

You can choose to believe that the Odds are against the fickle finger
of fate pointing at you. Or you can improve your odds if it ever does.

My approach and attitude is to improve my odds.
I may be at equal risk
But my possible outcomes are skewed in my favor.

Well, perhaps those states can do without my tourist dollars, or I shall
hew to the tourist paths, in company ...

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

" wrote in
:

On 27 Mar 2012 18:58:24 GMT, Han wrote:

" wrote in
m:

On 27 Mar 2012 12:16:01 GMT, Han wrote:
snip
I don't think you understand. It would be insane to allow people
with weapons entrance into the VA hospital in Manhattan.

Because you say so? You keep repeating the same nonsense, but have
nothing to back it up.

If you don't feel safe walking about in Manhattan without a weapon,
you should stay away. As for me, I did it for 34 years, and I'm
still here. If you get caught carrying a firearm in NYC without a
local license, you're arrested, whether or not you have a legal
right elsewhere.

Which *IS* insane!

If some people manage to live their lives in peace without the need
for firearms, that isn't insane. Your perceived need for firearms is,
perhaps. But that is my opinion, and I'm sure you'd disagree.

Yeah, a lot of dead people couldn't/wouldn't protect themselves.
Government makes sure others can't.

I had been planning on perhaps vacationing in some other states in the
US, such as Arizona, Utah, New Mexico. Just a simple question: Will
I be in any more danger without a firearm than in Washington State? I
know I'll be safe anywhere here in the North-East, and I haven't had
any problems in Florida either.

No, you must go back to The Netherlands. It's far too dangerous for
you here.

Thanks for the advice.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On 28 Mar 2012 01:29:13 GMT, Han wrote:

" wrote in
:

...and you've just made the workers defenseless. Nice.

Not really. The VA police are pretty good in subduing people. And bruises
are better than gunshot wounds.

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

On 28 Mar 2012 01:40:13 GMT, Han wrote:

" wrote in
:

On 27 Mar 2012 18:52:58 GMT, Han wrote:

" wrote in
:

On 27 Mar 2012 12:11:53 GMT, Han wrote:
snip
You're absolutely crazy if you say that people should be allowed to
enter the VA Hospital in Manhattan with weapons. I just explained it.

Why?

I explained it in the other part of our discussions.

No, you certainly didn't.

Sorry, can't do any better.

"Can't" is the right word.

On Tue, 27 Mar 2012 14:48:54 -0500, "HeyBub"
wrote:



There are far, far more non-VA hospitals in my state than VA ones - like
hundreds to one*. In all of those thousands of hospitals, weapons are
permitted. There has never been a publicized case of nastiness committed by
a firearm in any hospital. Including psychiatric hospitals (my wife is an
intake clinician at a psych hospital).


You mean like the shootings in Waterbury CT a month or so ago?

Two men shot and critically injured. Hospital was locked down for
hours.

On Tue, 27 Mar 2012 13:24:05 -0400, "
wrote:



I don't think you understand. It would be insane to allow people with
weapons entrance into the VA hospital in Manhattan.

Because you say so? You keep repeating the same nonsense, but have nothing to
back it up.


I'm not going to do the research, but VA hospital do have a higher
concentration of crazies as compared to regular hospitals. Probably
because of the concentration of combat people that have been injured,
mentally and physically from a few tours in a war zone.

Over the years, I have known quite a few Vets that had a beef with the
VA because of some shoddy treatment (real or perceived). A couple of
them I'd not trust with a firearm anyplace, let alone where they think
they were mistreated.

Oh, look, here is a VA hospital shooting
http://www.nbc12.com/story/16989990/...enter-shooting

What is this? Another VA hospital shooting?
http://www.nbc12.com/story/16989990/...enter-shooting

Even those nice people in North Carolina shoot up VA hospitals
http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/122484/

Han wrote:

Oh yes, I'll never forget what my believing mother said: God put you
on this world to do good.

Your mother was wrong. Good is the natural order of things.

God put me on earth to fight evil.

Jim Elbrecht wrote:

But there's only one VA hospital in Manhattan. You can remove the
problem you mention by moving the hospital to Long Island, thereby
eliminating the crazy-making contamination that comes from the
drinking water in Manhattan, or the air, or the cab drivers, or
whatever.

By suggesting that moving to LI would lower the 'crazy-quotient' for
whatever reason, you exhibit a complete lack of understanding of the
area.g [not to mention the point that there is a whole lot of
crazy *inside* the hospital]


I spent two weeks in Manhattan one night. Our hotel was on Times Square. I
remember requesting a window seat when we went to Howard Johnson's for
dinner so we could watch the floor show.

Han wrote:

But there's only one VA hospital in Manhattan. You can remove the
problem you mention by moving the hospital to Long Island, thereby
eliminating the crazy-making contamination that comes from the
drinking water in Manhattan, or the air, or the cab drivers, or
whatever.

There was a plan to kill off that VA. Unfortunately, that was one of
the places that was relatively easily to get to, especially with
public transportation. And apparently there are a lot of patients.
You wouldn't believe how out of the way the Brooklyn and Bronx VAs
are.

My solution is to close ALL the VA hospitals. Let the vets get treated at a
local facility and have that facility send the bill to the VA, just like
they do for insurance companies.

In the alternative, don't close the VA hospitals but let the vets go to a
local institution if they so choose.

"But, but, but..." you might say, "... the attendance at VA hospitals may
drop off, diminishing the quality of care for those that remain!"

So some in a given population (the vets) have to suffer six-hour bus rides
so that the entire group will benefit?

I think the Supreme Court will settle that hash by the end of June.

Han wrote:

Sure you did
It's the old
"Lets' curtail EVERYBODY's rights because of a few possible
problems.
And if you disagree, YOU are insane"
argument.

Well, if you believe that we should let some crazy people kill a few
doctors and nurses because otherwise we infringe on the right to carry
guns, then you're right, then I am crazy.

But I do NOT BELIEVE that we should let those doctors and nurses die,
and that keeping weapons out of the hospital is a "good thingT".

What on earth makes you think the doctors and nurses will die? Especially if
they, too, are armed.

In another post I pointed out that in literally thousands of non-VA
facilities in my state, no doctor, nurse, staff, visitors, or other patients
have been gunned down. Do the patients in the VA hospitals with which you
are familiar so hate the staff that they can't wait to retaliate for the
injustices they've suffered at the hands of Nurse Cratchitt clones?

On Tue, 27 Mar 2012 17:45:13 -0500, "Attila.Iskander"
wrote:





How would you like being on the ground being pounded by such ??

Maybe Z deserved itm maybe not.

Deserved it ??
What kind of crappy argument is that ?
And you were babbling about assumptions and conjecture somewhere else...


Just as everyone is saying the kid deserved it. We don't know.



That is the main probllem here, we don't know what led up to that. Was the
kid defending himself?

Not if he was on top

But before he was on top, was he staring down the barrel of a gun?
Physically held? We don't know that.



Was he provoked?

Not a justifiable reason for assault

It may not be justified, but it happens thousands of times every day.
Most often it is a fistfight, but many a gun has been drawn over minor
happenings.


Pushed and shoved? Called names? Threatened? Was the controntation started
by Trayvon or Zimmerman? Once we have those answers, we can draw a
conclusion. Until then, it is conjecture and opinion. That is why we have
investigations done. We need ALL the facts.



Doesn't stop you from spouting even the most inane conjecture in the face of
the evidence that we already have


My conjecture is just that It can go either way, as opposed to those
that have made a determination based on part of the story.
Because there is not enough evidence just yet to draw a conclusion. On
either side. I'm maintaining an open mind until a proper
investigation is complete.

Han wrote:

I wasn't really thinking of visiting Mexico. But (if I read between
the lines correctly) it is reassuring that you think it is safe to
visit those states even if unarmed. I don't think I can just go into
an Arizona gunshop and buy a firearm, even with a 3-day waiting
period, since I'm not a resident of the state.

I was attempting, evidently poorly, to contrast strict gun control (Juarez)
with lax gun control (El Paso).

No, you can't but a gun as an out-of-stater. But you can buy a weapon,
person-to-person, at the local gun show. Or via the newspaper's classified
ads. Or by standing on the street corner with a sandwich board saying "I
WANT TO BUY A GUN."

Handgun owners are like cat owners: They usually have more than one (I have
six... I think. Guns that is. Although I do have three cats.).

Oren wrote:
On 27 Mar 2012 20:18:23 GMT, Han wrote:

I wasn't really thinking of visiting Mexico. But (if I read between
the lines correctly) it is reassuring that you think it is safe to
visit those states even if unarmed. I don't think I can just go
into an Arizona gunshop and buy a firearm, even with a 3-day waiting
period, since I'm not a resident of the state.

Buy a hand gun in Nevada. Only in two counties it has to be registered
within 72 hours.


You actually put up with this "registration" ****?

Move to Texas or some other civilized place.

" wrote in
:

On 28 Mar 2012 01:29:13 GMT, Han wrote:

" wrote in
m:

...and you've just made the workers defenseless. Nice.

Not really. The VA police are pretty good in subduing people. And
bruises are better than gunshot wounds.

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

It usually takes several minutes for an altercation to escalate. Remember,
now there are only fists involved.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

"HeyBub" wrote in news:jv-dneWauM5p6-
:

Han wrote:

Oh yes, I'll never forget what my believing mother said: God put you
on this world to do good.

Your mother was wrong. Good is the natural order of things.

God put me on earth to fight evil.

Nice! So, what have you done to cut back on illegal gun use and
trafficking?

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

"HeyBub" wrote in
m:

Han wrote:

But there's only one VA hospital in Manhattan. You can remove the
problem you mention by moving the hospital to Long Island, thereby
eliminating the crazy-making contamination that comes from the
drinking water in Manhattan, or the air, or the cab drivers, or
whatever.

There was a plan to kill off that VA. Unfortunately, that was one of
the places that was relatively easily to get to, especially with
public transportation. And apparently there are a lot of patients.
You wouldn't believe how out of the way the Brooklyn and Bronx VAs
are.

My solution is to close ALL the VA hospitals. Let the vets get treated
at a local facility and have that facility send the bill to the VA,
just like they do for insurance companies.

In the alternative, don't close the VA hospitals but let the vets go
to a local institution if they so choose.

"But, but, but..." you might say, "... the attendance at VA hospitals
may drop off, diminishing the quality of care for those that remain!"

So some in a given population (the vets) have to suffer six-hour bus
rides so that the entire group will benefit?

I think the Supreme Court will settle that hash by the end of June.

The US VA system is a very unique system, with very many very good things
going for it. Of course, there are some bad things going on as well.
Just like you don't go to the gynecologist to get a broken leg fixed, the
VA patients are unique enough to warrant special treatment. When the US
stops fighting wars (I'm in favor of less war, but some seem inevitable,
and I support them!), the need for the VA system will diminish. But
we'll need it for the lifetime of the brave men who fought and are still
fighting these last wars.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

"HeyBub" wrote in
m:

Jim Elbrecht wrote:

But there's only one VA hospital in Manhattan. You can remove the
problem you mention by moving the hospital to Long Island, thereby
eliminating the crazy-making contamination that comes from the
drinking water in Manhattan, or the air, or the cab drivers, or
whatever.

By suggesting that moving to LI would lower the 'crazy-quotient' for
whatever reason, you exhibit a complete lack of understanding of the
area.g [not to mention the point that there is a whole lot of
crazy *inside* the hospital]


I spent two weeks in Manhattan one night. Our hotel was on Times
Square. I remember requesting a window seat when we went to Howard
Johnson's for dinner so we could watch the floor show.

We visited in 1970 or '71. Then went to see family in upper Manhattan.
We got very strange eyes when we told them where we were staying. But
now Times Square has been cleaned up since years ago, it's fun to watch.
Manhattan is a great place to walk about. Almost every block is
different and interesting. Did you take a bus tour?

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

"HeyBub" wrote in
m:

What on earth makes you think the doctors and nurses will die?
Especially if they, too, are armed.

Some patients are a bit paranoid. What do you think will happen when the
doctors are parading around with weapons?

In another post I pointed out that in literally thousands of non-VA
facilities in my state, no doctor, nurse, staff, visitors, or other
patients have been gunned down. Do the patients in the VA hospitals
with which you are familiar so hate the staff that they can't wait to
retaliate for the injustices they've suffered at the hands of Nurse
Cratchitt clones?

As a researcher at the bench, I have had little patient-doctor
interaction, seen or experienced. With 1 exception, all was great. But
if you are a diabetic in fairly advanced stages, and your legs have been
amputated because of the diabetes, I can imagine that someone might think
why me? That did become an obsession for one vet, and he blamed the
nicest doctor on staff for it, and went and killed him. That is too
much. One cannot allow that to happen. That one doctor could have
helped many more patients.

Please give me some slack, I wasn't present at the place where this
happened, but I remember the commotion it caused, and the sorrow for the
doctor.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

"HeyBub" wrote:

-snip-

My solution is to close ALL the VA hospitals. Let the vets get treated at a
local facility and have that facility send the bill to the VA, just like
they do for insurance companies.

I'd let the vets have some say in that. and especially in the mental
health dept of the VA I don't think you'd get many agreeing with you.


In the alternative, don't close the VA hospitals but let the vets go to a
local institution if they so choose.

Those of us with insurance do that already. But when something is
service connected, there is no-one better suited to 'fix' it than the
VA.


"But, but, but..." you might say, "... the attendance at VA hospitals may
drop off, diminishing the quality of care for those that remain!"

So some in a given population (the vets) have to suffer six-hour bus rides
so that the entire group will benefit?

Yeah-- and what have they ever done for us? Closing any VA
hospital now would be a bigger slap in the face to the Vets of the
past couple decades than any spitting that might [or might not have]
gone on in the 70s.

Between PTSD [from multiple tours and an older force], and TBIs from
well built equipment tossing soldiers around like crash dummies with
no *apparent* injuries, we need a VA more than ever.

I think the TBIs will be this decade's Agent Orange-- and I've been
saying that for about 8 years.

Jim

Jim Elbrecht wrote in
news
"HeyBub" wrote:

-snip-

My solution is to close ALL the VA hospitals. Let the vets get treated
at a local facility and have that facility send the bill to the VA,
just like they do for insurance companies.

I'd let the vets have some say in that. and especially in the mental
health dept of the VA I don't think you'd get many agreeing with you.


In the alternative, don't close the VA hospitals but let the vets go
to a local institution if they so choose.

Those of us with insurance do that already. But when something is
service connected, there is no-one better suited to 'fix' it than the
VA.


"But, but, but..." you might say, "... the attendance at VA hospitals
may drop off, diminishing the quality of care for those that remain!"

So some in a given population (the vets) have to suffer six-hour bus
rides so that the entire group will benefit?

Yeah-- and what have they ever done for us? Closing any VA
hospital now would be a bigger slap in the face to the Vets of the
past couple decades than any spitting that might [or might not have]
gone on in the 70s.

Between PTSD [from multiple tours and an older force], and TBIs from
well built equipment tossing soldiers around like crash dummies with
no *apparent* injuries, we need a VA more than ever.

I think the TBIs will be this decade's Agent Orange-- and I've been
saying that for about 8 years.

Jim

It's been at least 5 years ago that I talked to a colleague/friend at the
Minneapolis VA. He said THEN that the number of brain injury victims was
staggering and overwhelming. Those people (vets) are going to need
specialized care for a LONG time.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

In article ,
Jim Yanik wrote:


it DOES establish that Tray was a vandal(graffiti),burgler-thief,and an
illegal drug user. NOT the "innocent kid" he's being portrayed as.

Mom yesterday weighed in that because of these revelations the cops
were trying to "demonize the victim". Pot? Kettle?

--
People thought cybersex was a safe alternative,
until patients started presenting with sexually
acquired carpal tunnel syndrome.-Howard Berkowitz

In article ,
Han wrote:


Well, if you believe that we should let some crazy people kill a few
doctors and nurses because otherwise we infringe on the right to carry
guns, then you're right, then I am crazy.

But I do NOT BELIEVE that we should let those doctors and nurses die, and
that keeping weapons out of the hospital is a "good thing™".

Doesn't address within hospitals and is bordering on old, but these are
the only figures I could come up with in a hurry.
From 1980 through 1990, a total of 522 HCWs died from injuries
sustained while working. The most common causes of death were motor
vehicle crashes (122 [23.4%]), homicide (106 [20.3%]), and suicide (88
[16.9%]). Firearms were used in the greatest number (78 [73.6%]) of
workplace-related homicides among HCWs. (But note less than 14% of all
deaths, I thought the choice of that stat was interesting).

JAMA. 1994 Dec 7;272(21):1686-8.
Workplace-related homicide among health care workers in the United
States, 1980 through 1990.
Goodman RA, Jenkins EL, Mercy JA.

--
People thought cybersex was a safe alternative,
until patients started presenting with sexually
acquired carpal tunnel syndrome.-Howard Berkowitz

Han wrote:
"HeyBub" wrote in news:jv-dneWauM5p6-
:

Han wrote:

Oh yes, I'll never forget what my believing mother said: God put
you on this world to do good.

Your mother was wrong. Good is the natural order of things.

God put me on earth to fight evil.

Nice! So, what have you done to cut back on illegal gun use and
trafficking?

The maxim: "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water!" doesn't work if
it's baby itself that's the evil.

In the case you posit, it's the laws against use of an illegal gun and the
laws against "trafficking" that's evil. I dispute those laws every chance I
get.

In article ,
Han wrote:


It usually takes several minutes for an altercation to escalate. Remember,
now there are only fists involved.

According to a recent article in the Atlanta Journal Constitution,
Atlanta police were the slowest to answer high-priority emergency calls
among police departments from seven similar-sized cities. The results
were part of a survey of police response times. In Atlanta in 2010 it
took, on average, 11 minutes and 12 seconds from the time a
high-priority 911 call was received until an Atlanta police officer
showed up at the scene. The response times reported by the El Paso
(Texas) Police Department were only one second quicker than Atlanta¹s,
with an average of 11 minutes and 11 seconds.
The Denver Police Department posted a response time of 11 minutes flat.
According to the Journal Constitution story, police in Tucson, Ariz.,
responded, on average, in 10 minutes and 11 seconds.
In Nashville-Davidson County, police recorded average response times
below 9 minutes.

This is WAY longer than it takes to escalate altercations unless
someone calls the cops the first time one guy eyes another.

--
People thought cybersex was a safe alternative,
until patients started presenting with sexually
acquired carpal tunnel syndrome.-Howard Berkowitz

Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Over the years, I have known quite a few Vets that had a beef with the
VA because of some shoddy treatment (real or perceived). A couple of
them I'd not trust with a firearm anyplace, let alone where they think
they were mistreated.

Oh, look, here is a VA hospital shooting
http://www.nbc12.com/story/16989990/...enter-shooting

What is this? Another VA hospital shooting?
http://www.nbc12.com/story/16989990/...enter-shooting

Even those nice people in North Carolina shoot up VA hospitals
http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/122484/

Regrettable all, but it's the price we pay for freedom.

In article ,
Han wrote:

The US VA system is a very unique system, with very many very good things
going for it. Of course, there are some bad things going on as well.
Just like you don't go to the gynecologist to get a broken leg fixed, the
VA patients are unique enough to warrant special treatment. When the US
stops fighting wars (I'm in favor of less war, but some seem inevitable,
and I support them!), the need for the VA system will diminish. But
we'll need it for the lifetime of the brave men who fought and are still
fighting these last wars.

I have long been fascinated (through many administrations with differing
party affiliations) by the VA. Even within the same city, they can have
some of the best, university affiliated hospitals in the world and a few
miles away some of the worst 3rd world hell holes.

--
People thought cybersex was a safe alternative,
until patients started presenting with sexually
acquired carpal tunnel syndrome.-Howard Berkowitz

In article ,
Jim Elbrecht wrote:


Those of us with insurance do that already. But when something is
service connected, there is no-one better suited to 'fix' it than the
VA.

At least locally the rub (especially with chronic mental health issues)
is to get it declared service connected. We had a couple of frequent
flyer that were medically discharged from the service because of their
mental illness (usually at least in our practice schizophrenia) but were
not service connected. A couple others had their break after leaving the
service, but the delusions were all centered around their military
service (one who kept hearing the voice of a dead compatriot in their
head) who were not service related. Even with a connected designation,
it was hard to get them to accept patients to the Psych ward.

Between PTSD [from multiple tours and an older force], and TBIs from
well built equipment tossing soldiers around like crash dummies with
no *apparent* injuries, we need a VA more than ever.

Covered the Nurse Practitioners' convention a couple of years ago. One
of the more interesting discussions was on the increase in
osteoarthritis seen at very young ages, especially in the infantry.
Thinking at the time was related to carrying around all the body armor
and field packs. Should be interesting to see how this plays out.

--
People thought cybersex was a safe alternative,
until patients started presenting with sexually
acquired carpal tunnel syndrome.-Howard Berkowitz

Kurt Ullman wrote in
:

In article ,
Han wrote:


It usually takes several minutes for an altercation to escalate.
Remember, now there are only fists involved.

According to a recent article in the Atlanta Journal Constitution,
Atlanta police were the slowest to answer high-priority emergency
calls among police departments from seven similar-sized cities. The
results were part of a survey of police response times. In Atlanta in
2010 it took, on average, 11 minutes and 12 seconds from the time a
high-priority 911 call was received until an Atlanta police officer
showed up at the scene. The response times reported by the El Paso
(Texas) Police Department were only one second quicker than Atlanta¹s,
with an average of 11 minutes and 11 seconds.
The Denver Police Department posted a response time of 11 minutes
flat. According to the Journal Constitution story, police in Tucson,
Ariz., responded, on average, in 10 minutes and 11 seconds.
In Nashville-Davidson County, police recorded average response times
below 9 minutes.

This is WAY longer than it takes to escalate altercations unless
someone calls the cops the first time one guy eyes another.

I agree. Perhaps that is a reflection of the poor response times of
those police departments. It's a really good reason to be careful whom
you talk to on the street in those cities, and to have sturdy doors in
your home. And /perhaps/ arm yourself, if you are really fearful you'd
become a statistic. A friend of my daughter moved to an Atlanta suburb.
He: Is rather poor in manual manipulations, except with a keyboard;
found out there is an ordnance on the books there that requires one to
have a firearm in one's home; went to the police and asked whether he
really had to; police answered yeah, but it isn't enforced. Knowing him
a little, I think it would be wise for him and his wife NOT to have a
firearm. Apparently he's still happy out there. I should ask about this
next time I hear about them ...

This part of the discussion, however, was about VA hospitals, or perhaps
hospitals in general. Don't most hospitals have their own police forces,
trained to handle unruly patients and visitors? It shouldn't take more
than a few minutes max to get a bunch of officers to a fracas. I /know/
that's the case in the Manhattan VA.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

"HeyBub" wrote in
m:

The maxim: "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water!" doesn't
work if it's baby itself that's the evil.

"Evil" is a loaded word, but anyway what kind of "evil" are you talking
about here?

In the case you posit, it's the laws against use of an illegal gun and
the laws against "trafficking" that's evil. I dispute those laws every
chance I get.

I'm being very dense, probably, but you aren't advocating more widespread
use of illegal guns, are you?

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Kurt Ullman wrote in
m:

In article ,
Han wrote:

The US VA system is a very unique system, with very many very good
things going for it. Of course, there are some bad things going on
as well. Just like you don't go to the gynecologist to get a broken
leg fixed, the VA patients are unique enough to warrant special
treatment. When the US stops fighting wars (I'm in favor of less
war, but some seem inevitable, and I support them!), the need for the
VA system will diminish. But we'll need it for the lifetime of the
brave men who fought and are still fighting these last wars.

I have long been fascinated (through many administrations with
differing party affiliations) by the VA. Even within the same city,
they can have some of the best, university affiliated hospitals in the
world and a few miles away some of the worst 3rd world hell holes.

Amen. I think I've been lucky to have been at a "good" VA hospital, at
23rd Str & First Ave. It was started with staff from NYU (which is
practically next doors), Cornell Medical College (50 blocks uptown),
Columbia (&168St on the West side), and Mount Sinai (100th Str and 5th
Ave). Understandably it's now almost exclusively NYU staff, which also
staffs Bellevue Hospital (I believe). Thus, the environment really
stimulates good medicine. I suspect (but I do not really know) the
hellholes may be more some of the long-term treatment facilities. I
would venture to guess that better oversight by qualified medical
personnel would enhance those "bad" facilities.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

In article ,
Han wrote:

This part of the discussion, however, was about VA hospitals, or perhaps
hospitals in general. Don't most hospitals have their own police forces,
trained to handle unruly patients and visitors? It shouldn't take more
than a few minutes max to get a bunch of officers to a fracas. I /know/
that's the case in the Manhattan VA.

Yeah, but I can tell you from personal experience at a couple big city
hospitals, that doesn't cut response a whole hell of a lot. Even on days
we usually had less than 15 cops to cover the 15 acre main campus,
parking garages, outpatient areas throughout the city, keep a presence
in the ER, and patrol. We handled most of the problems ourselves long
before help arrived. ABout the only times the hospital cops came in
handy was when someone was already secluded and we needed to go into see
them and could plan it out ahead of time. Even then, we might not have
someone available.

--
People thought cybersex was a safe alternative,
until patients started presenting with sexually
acquired carpal tunnel syndrome.-Howard Berkowitz

On 28 Mar 2012 11:49:52 GMT, Han wrote:

"HeyBub" wrote in
om:

Jim Elbrecht wrote:

But there's only one VA hospital in Manhattan. You can remove the
problem you mention by moving the hospital to Long Island, thereby
eliminating the crazy-making contamination that comes from the
drinking water in Manhattan, or the air, or the cab drivers, or
whatever.

By suggesting that moving to LI would lower the 'crazy-quotient' for
whatever reason, you exhibit a complete lack of understanding of the
area.g [not to mention the point that there is a whole lot of
crazy *inside* the hospital]


I spent two weeks in Manhattan one night. Our hotel was on Times
Square. I remember requesting a window seat when we went to Howard
Johnson's for dinner so we could watch the floor show.

We visited in 1970 or '71. Then went to see family in upper Manhattan.
We got very strange eyes when we told them where we were staying. But
now Times Square has been cleaned up since years ago, it's fun to watch.
Manhattan is a great place to walk about. Almost every block is
different and interesting. Did you take a bus tour?

We were there several times, in the mid '70, though '93ish and saw the
changes. Guiliani really did clean it up. AIUI, it's slipping backwards
since the cops aren't as vigilant WRT "minor" crimes under Bloomberg.

Kurt Ullman wrote in
m:

In article ,
Han wrote:

This part of the discussion, however, was about VA hospitals, or
perhaps hospitals in general. Don't most hospitals have their own
police forces, trained to handle unruly patients and visitors? It
shouldn't take more than a few minutes max to get a bunch of officers
to a fracas. I /know/ that's the case in the Manhattan VA.

Yeah, but I can tell you from personal experience at a couple big city
hospitals, that doesn't cut response a whole hell of a lot. Even on
days we usually had less than 15 cops to cover the 15 acre main
campus, parking garages, outpatient areas throughout the city, keep a
presence in the ER, and patrol. We handled most of the problems
ourselves long before help arrived. ABout the only times the
hospital cops came in handy was when someone was already secluded and
we needed to go into see them and could plan it out ahead of time.
Even then, we might not have someone available.

I can never remember how much an acre is, but the VA Medical Center
Manhattan http://maps.google.com/maps?q=map+va+hospital+manhattan is
between 23 & 25th Str, on the East side of First Ave. The elevators
usually work pretty well, so it isn't really a lot of area. And there
are plenty of cops IMO.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

" wrote in
news
On 28 Mar 2012 11:49:52 GMT, Han wrote:

"HeyBub" wrote in
news:YuudnVoSL5w86u_SnZ2dnUVZ_r2dnZ2d@earthlink. com:

Jim Elbrecht wrote:

But there's only one VA hospital in Manhattan. You can remove the
problem you mention by moving the hospital to Long Island, thereby
eliminating the crazy-making contamination that comes from the
drinking water in Manhattan, or the air, or the cab drivers, or
whatever.

By suggesting that moving to LI would lower the 'crazy-quotient'
for whatever reason, you exhibit a complete lack of understanding
of the area.g [not to mention the point that there is a whole
lot of crazy *inside* the hospital]


I spent two weeks in Manhattan one night. Our hotel was on Times
Square. I remember requesting a window seat when we went to Howard
Johnson's for dinner so we could watch the floor show.

We visited in 1970 or '71. Then went to see family in upper
Manhattan. We got very strange eyes when we told them where we were
staying. But now Times Square has been cleaned up since years ago,
it's fun to watch. Manhattan is a great place to walk about. Almost
every block is different and interesting. Did you take a bus tour?

We were there several times, in the mid '70, though '93ish and saw the
changes. Guiliani really did clean it up. AIUI, it's slipping
backwards since the cops aren't as vigilant WRT "minor" crimes under
Bloomberg.

They are too much focused on their computers and statistics. And money
is a big thing nowadays ...

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On Tue, 27 Mar 2012 21:46:20 -0500, "HeyBub"
wrote:

Oren wrote:
On 27 Mar 2012 20:18:23 GMT, Han wrote:

I wasn't really thinking of visiting Mexico. But (if I read between
the lines correctly) it is reassuring that you think it is safe to
visit those states even if unarmed. I don't think I can just go
into an Arizona gunshop and buy a firearm, even with a 3-day waiting
period, since I'm not a resident of the state.

Buy a hand gun in Nevada. Only in two counties it has to be registered
within 72 hours.


You actually put up with this "registration" ****?



.... me? You talkin' too me? looks around

Move to Texas or some other civilized place.


Why?

On Tue, 27 Mar 2012 20:50:31 -0400, "
wrote:

Buy a hand gun in Nevada. Only in two counties it has to be registered
within 72 hours.

Still have to be a resident, at least to buy from an FFL holder.

Giggle.

"Han" wrote in message
...
"Attila.Iskander" wrote in
:


"Han" wrote in message
...
"Attila.Iskander" wrote in
:


"Han" wrote in message
...
" wrote in
:

On 26 Mar 2012 11:01:44 GMT, Han wrote:

Nothing really serious that I know about. Plenty of scuffles.
Around that time they also changed the label of the outfit to
"police" from security guard. If you ever get to First Ave & 23rd
Str, NYC, make a visit and ask to see the confiscated weapons.

Oh, good grief. A law makes the criminals play nice. You are a
dreamer.

It's called self-defense. Or don't you agree that preventing is
better than resurrecting?


Disarming the law-abiding is NOT "self-defense" by even the most
twisted definition

It would be insane (yes, really insane) to allow everyone, who wanted
to do so, to enter a VA hospital with a firearm or even a pocket
knife.

At least that's what YOU believe.



There are many veterans who (wrongly) are under the impression that
they weren't treated properly, or could have been treated better.
And most likely, some of them are correct. One cannot determine
whether a person
has the potential to do harm to an employee just by looking at them.


So basically you imagine that it's right to limit the rights of
EVERYONE because of a few possible problems

While you're at it, limit the right to free speech, because you have a
few who abuse it
And while you're at it, limit freedom of religion, after al, there
were a few who flew some planes into towers, and cut off peoples heads
because of their religion
And don't' forget the right to be free of unwarranted searches,
because of a few people who hid their criminals activities behind
it...




If you believe that it would be proper to allow everyone, who wanted
to do so, to enter a VA hospital with a firearm, then you are indeed
insane.


I'm not insane
But you are a VERY POOR understanding of what a free country with
RIGHTS is actually supposed to mean.
Apparently you didn't pay attention in civics class.

But at least now I understand VERY CLEARLY that in your world, anyone
who is on the side of respecting constitutional Rights qualifies as
"insane" in your world.
And why, because according to you, it's much smarter to abrogate the
rights of EVERYONE, instead of making the effort to solve the problems
caused by a VERY few...

Yes, I indeed resented the fact that my tiny swiss arny knife was not
permitted. And I'm really very sorry to see that you think it would be
OK to let people carrying guns into the hospital, if there was really
only 1 or 2 who meant harm to an employee.


If you know who wants to harm people
Stop them
But I do NOT accept your authority to infringe on my freedom on the premise
that since someone else what to do harm, I should be made defenseless and my
rights abrogated

That may be a valid mindset in a socialist heaven, like those in Europe,
where most people are still considered peons, er subjects of the state
But in the US, the mindset just happens to be the opposite.
You really should study up on that.


Oh, I'm don't think we had anything resembling civics class in our Dutch
schools. Maybe some of that came in my cub scout meetings. Maybe I am
who I am because of that lack? On the other hand, a good friend on the
far right called me a good person, despite my liking of FDR, and general
dislike for organized religion ...


Well, clearly, one doesn't need civics classes for subjects.
After all, they only need to accept what the state dictates to them
Being a citizen, requires a bit more.


Oh yes, I'll never forget what my believing mother said: God put you on
this world to do good.


That's nice, but completely irrelevant
Disarming people and making them defenseless against criminals is not "doing
good" by any measure.
I would have thought that you would have learned that lesson from past Euro
history.
But apparently not..