This weekend I will finally start cutting & cementing the flagstone on
the walkway (see four photos below for detail) and three questions arose:

Q1: What is UNDER these flagstones on cement (are they glued?)
Q2: If you glue them, how do you keep the tops evenly flat?
Q3: Since the step width varies by 3 inches, can it take a 3" overhang?

Here is a picture of the concrete base that I plan on putting flagstone.
Notice the base starts at 18 inches but eventually narrows to 15".
Can a 3" overhang (maximum) be supported with just the packed soil below?
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7433812.jpg

Here is a picture of that same base, only further away to give you a
better idea of the problem set:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7433813.jpg

Here is a picture of the enigma.
What is UNDER these existing flagstones?
Are they simply GLUED on? (There seems to be NOTHING under them!)
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7433814.jpg

Here is another picture of the existing flagstones in the water feature.
They appear to have NOTHING under them. Can that be?
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...40/7433816.jpg

The reason these three question matter is:
a) I need to lay the flagstone on the concrete and I don't know if I glue
them on or if I just grout the spaces between each stone.
b) If I glue them on, I don't know how to keep the tops flat since each
stone is slightly different in thickness.
c) Even though the base starts at 18" wide, it narrows to 15" wide but I
would want the stone to stay the same width.

Any advice is always appreciated!

On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 07:22:25 +0000, Chuck Banshee wrote:
Any advice is always appreciated!

Here is a view further out showing the entire construction zone:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7433855.jpg

The problem I'm having trouble figuring out how to solve is how to put
flagstone along the foundation where the front side is in dirt (with
water pipes unexpectedly popping out when I dug the path) - and the other
side having a 15" to 18" concrete ledge to put the flagstones upon.

How would you suggest I lay the flagstones so that one can walk along the
side of the foundation?

On Jan 28, 7:22*am, Chuck Banshee wrote:
This weekend I will finally start cutting & cementing the flagstone on
the walkway (see four photos below for detail) and three questions arose:

Q1: What is UNDER these flagstones on cement (are they glued?)
Q2: If you glue them, how do you keep the tops evenly flat?
Q3: Since the step width varies by 3 inches, can it take a 3" overhang?

Here is a picture of the concrete base that I plan on putting flagstone.
Notice the base starts at 18 inches but eventually narrows to 15".
Can a 3" overhang (maximum) be supported with just the packed soil below?
*http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7433812.jpg

Here is a picture of that same base, only further away to give you a
better idea of the problem set:
*http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7433813.jpg

Here is a picture of the enigma.
What is UNDER these existing flagstones?
Are they simply GLUED on? (There seems to be NOTHING under them!)
*http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7433814.jpg

Here is another picture of the existing flagstones in the water feature.
They appear to have NOTHING under them. Can that be?
*http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...40/7433816.jpg

The reason these three question matter is:
a) I need to lay the flagstone on the concrete and I don't know if I glue
them on or if I just grout the spaces between each stone.
b) If I glue them on, I don't know how to keep the tops flat since each
stone is slightly different in thickness.
c) Even though the base starts at 18" wide, it narrows to 15" wide but I
would want the stone to stay the same width.

Any advice is always appreciated!

If you are laying any sort of paviours on a hard surface they will
have to be bedded in cement. This takes up any irregularities,stops
them from wobbling etc.
There are special cements availablefor thin paviours that are better
than normal sand/cement mix. (Tile/paviour adhesives.)
Different ones for indoor and outdoor and for different sorts of
paviour.

Thin paviours need special care as they can break under load if
unsupported. (ie no voids underneath)

On Jan 28, 7:33*am, Chuck Banshee wrote:
On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 07:22:25 +0000, Chuck Banshee wrote:
Any advice is always appreciated!

Here is a view further out showing the entire construction zone:
*http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7433855.jpg

The problem I'm having trouble figuring out how to solve is how to put
flagstone along the foundation where the front side is in dirt (with
water pipes unexpectedly popping out when I dug the path) - and the other
side having a 15" to 18" concrete ledge to put the flagstones upon.

How would you suggest I lay the flagstones so that one can walk along the
side of the foundation?

If you are laying flagstone outdoors, they need a prepared foundation.
All topsoil and softsubsoil has to be removed and the hole filled with
rubble and then gravel/sandmix. This has to be machine compacted.
Flags are then laid on a thin layer of sand. This is quite skilled
work to get them looking right.
If you don't do this (ie lay on soft soil etc) they will sink and/or
be subject to frost heave.

Chuck Banshee wrote:
This weekend I will finally start cutting & cementing the flagstone on
the walkway (see four photos below for detail) and three questions
arose:

Q1: What is UNDER these flagstones on cement (are they glued?)

Glued? No. One sets them in mortar.

Q2: If you glue them, how do you keep the tops evenly flat?

Mortar bed thick enough to let you level the top surfaces. Ever watch a
block layer? Toss out mortar bed, set block, tap block to level with
neighboring block, scrape off ooze out.

If your stones vary considerably in thickness, dry lay them first so you can
see how much mortar you need under the thinnest. The mortar needs to be
stiff enough to support them; you can cheat a bit if need be by using a
couple of pebbles or whatever.

Q3: Since the step width varies by 3 inches, can it take a 3"
overhang?

Not unsupported.

Here is a picture of the concrete base that I plan on putting
flagstone. Notice the base starts at 18 inches but eventually narrows
to 15".
Can a 3" overhang (maximum) be supported with just the packed soil
below? http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7433812.jpg

Maybe. Best to just even up the slab...dig out, add concrete. If the patch
area is very long, add some dowels...drill horizontally into existing slab,
insert dowels cut from rebar, pour your patch.
_______________________

Regarding "How would you suggest I lay the flagstones so that one can walk
along the
side of the foundation?"...

You really only have two options: raise the walkway or lower the pipes.
______________________

People *do* set flags/bricks/pavers directly on the ground. People do lots
of things and then wonder why what they did disintegrates. If you want a
decent job, you must...

1. Remove the sod/plants/soil to a depth sufficient to accomodate 3" of
compacted bed material + 1" of bedding sand + the thickness of the pavers.

2. Add bedding material. Around here, they use crushed concrete. Works
well, good mix of fines and larger pieces. To get 3" compacted of that, one
needs about 4 1/2". The material used varies depending on where you are.
The bedding material is dumped in then raked out to flatten and provide
desired slope for drainage.

3. Compact

4. Lay sand, rake and even up. The purpose of the sand is to provide a base
into which irregular surfaces can settle. If what you are laying has even
surfaces, you don't really need the sand *IF* the coarser bedding material
has a decent surface.

5. Lay the stone

6. Compact again (to settle stone into sand)

7. Do the joints.
_____________________

You might want to consider having at least the prep work done by pros. We
did 1700 sq.ft. of brick in our courtyard a couple of years ago. The 3-4
man crew of Brazilians did all the prep, layed the bricks and sanded in the
joints in two days. A fair amount of cutting too. The cost, exclusive of
bricks but including all other materials, worked out to be $2.50 sq.ft. A
bargain.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

Some general comments:

1 - From the pic of where the walkway is I don't
understand all the fuss in the other thread about
protecting the PVC pipes against the wall. Looks
like a perfect spot for some flowers, shrubs with
mulch covering the pipes.

2 - As to what is holding the existing flagstones, you
have what appears to be some of the material that
oozed out around the edge in one pic. Chip a piece
off and look at it. Normally you'd expect it to be in
thinset or similar, but it could be some kind of adhesive.

3 - For the new walkway you don't need any of that. You
need a stabilized base, which usually means removing
any soft earth that is there, replacing it with base
material which could be crushed rock or gravel. Then
you put about an inch of sand or stone dust and use
that to bed the flagstone. I'd put down metal edging
first along the sides to give it a clean seperation from
the grass.

On Jan 28, 2:22*am, Chuck Banshee wrote:
This weekend I will finally start cutting & cementing the flagstone on
the walkway (see four photos below for detail) and three questions arose:

Q1: What is UNDER these flagstones on cement (are they glued?)
Q2: If you glue them, how do you keep the tops evenly flat?
Q3: Since the step width varies by 3 inches, can it take a 3" overhang?

Here is a picture of the concrete base that I plan on putting flagstone.
Notice the base starts at 18 inches but eventually narrows to 15".
Can a 3" overhang (maximum) be supported with just the packed soil below?
*http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7433812.jpg

Here is a picture of that same base, only further away to give you a
better idea of the problem set:
*http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7433813.jpg

Here is a picture of the enigma.
What is UNDER these existing flagstones?
Are they simply GLUED on? (There seems to be NOTHING under them!)
*http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7433814.jpg

Here is another picture of the existing flagstones in the water feature.
They appear to have NOTHING under them. Can that be?
*http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...40/7433816.jpg

The reason these three question matter is:
a) I need to lay the flagstone on the concrete and I don't know if I glue
them on or if I just grout the spaces between each stone.
b) If I glue them on, I don't know how to keep the tops flat since each
stone is slightly different in thickness.
c) Even though the base starts at 18" wide, it narrows to 15" wide but I
would want the stone to stay the same width.

Any advice is always appreciated!


You are planning on setting the pavers on the footing for
whatever that stepped planting bed with the "water feature"
in it ?

You need to know what level you will be setting the pavers
at and then either add concrete to the footing so it gets closer
to the finished level so you can use bedding mortar to attach
the stones, or you can use pack (stonedust) material -- not
sand... You would only be creating a situation where water
would be likely to collect and pool under the stones at the
footing which could do all sorts of terrible things over the
passage of time...

Others here have said enough explaining your question
about how the other flagstones are attached...

You need to rent a bigger saw, a gasoline powered cut
off saw with a diamond blade which uses water to keep
the dust down... You have so many cuts coming up and
that small little circular saw will not last through all of them
even with a diamond blade...

Sorry to say this to you but this project looks like it is
adding up to something that is well beyond your skill
level given the questions you have been asking about it...

Hire a professional stone mason to do it for you...

~~ Evan

On 1/28/2012 1:33 AM, Chuck Banshee wrote:
On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 07:22:25 +0000, Chuck Banshee wrote:
Any advice is always appreciated!

Here is a view further out showing the entire construction zone:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7433855.jpg

The problem I'm having trouble figuring out how to solve is how to put
flagstone along the foundation where the front side is in dirt (with
water pipes unexpectedly popping out when I dug the path) - and the other
side having a 15" to 18" concrete ledge to put the flagstones upon.

How would you suggest I lay the flagstones so that one can walk along the
side of the foundation?


Chuck, you have more loam to remove. Get a healthy load of "red select"
or whatever compactible select fill is normally available in your area.
Set up an edge form on the outboard edge of the proposed walk. It
will work to grade to a chalk line at the foundation, but it will be
easier to set a grade screed there also. Install, grade, and compact
the fill. You have no requirement to follow the paint line that is
established on your foundation, the walk can follow the layout of the
top cap of the foundation wall which will allow you to go over the pipes
with the fill, raise the control box to the stone grade, and have your
stone walkway. If you ever need to work on the pipes, everything is
fairly easy to remove.

--


___________________________________

Keep the whole world singing . . .
Dan G
remove the seven

On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 15:35:41 -0500, gfretwell wrote:
The first step is doing the puzzle. You start dry laying the stone just
to figure out what the pattern is going to be.

You're right!

It took me almost the entire day (Saturday) to do this step!

It's bad enough that I mostly have small well broken pieces to deal with.

Luckily, both the steel diamond saw and the brown-material masonry saw
easily cut the flagstone (although the diamond saw seems to cut twice as
fast). Both dust up terribly!

Here is a picture of the stones very roughly laid out (without any
cutting).
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7448449.jpg

The puzzle is driving me CRAZY! (being ocd)

In addition ...
I'm not sure if you cut the last edge (the outside) edge last or if I cut
all the edges before setting them in concrete.

Either way, my plan is to cut them to fit today.

On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 00:27:40 -0800, harry wrote:
If you are laying flagstone outdoors, they need a prepared foundation.

For half the walkway, there is already a concrete (rough surface)
foundation. That's the half I'm doing first (because it's easier).

Here is a picture of the step up I tried as the very first effort.
http://picturepush.com/host.php?image=7448448

It took 1 bag of mortar (50#) and one gallon of water. No sand. No rocks.

In hindsight, it wasn't enough to raise the level the required two
inches ... so I have to start over again today.

I did cut the rocks to fit almost seamlessly. The cutting is the easy
part. The hard part is figuring out how to glue it all together.

On Sun, 29 Jan 2012 21:12:22 +0000, Chuck Banshee wrote:

It took 1 bag of mortar (50#) and one gallon of water. No sand. No
rocks.

I think I used the wrong stuff.

What I used was pure mortar (no rock, no sand).

The entire bag barely brought this small spot up to the level of a single
two-by-four set flat on the ground!
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7448533.jpg

On Jan 29, 4:19*pm, Chuck Banshee wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jan 2012 21:12:22 +0000, Chuck Banshee wrote:
It took 1 bag of mortar (50#) and one gallon of water. No sand. No
rocks.

I think I used the wrong stuff.

What I used was pure mortar (no rock, no sand).

The entire bag barely brought this small spot up to the level of a single
two-by-four set flat on the ground!
*http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7448533.jpg

No you have to realize that when you are laying a mortar bed
to raise something up you have to let it set and it does take
quite a bit of material to fill what you think looks like a small
volume of space...

When you have a flat, leveled area that is close in elevation to
where you want your finished flagstone whatever to be at you
would then use a shallow bedding coat of mortar to lay the
stones in... If you set the pavers on the wet 2" of mortar they
would sink unevenly into the wet mortar depending on how
heavy they were and the mortar bed would take forever to cure...

~~ Evan

On 1/29/2012 4:34 PM, Evan wrote:
On Jan 29, 4:19 pm, Chuck wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jan 2012 21:12:22 +0000, Chuck Banshee wrote:
It took 1 bag of mortar (50#) and one gallon of water. No sand. No
rocks.

I think I used the wrong stuff.

What I used was pure mortar (no rock, no sand).

The entire bag barely brought this small spot up to the level of a single
two-by-four set flat on the ground!
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7448533.jpg

No you have to realize that when you are laying a mortar bed
to raise something up you have to let it set and it does take
quite a bit of material to fill what you think looks like a small
volume of space...

When you have a flat, leveled area that is close in elevation to
where you want your finished flagstone whatever to be at you
would then use a shallow bedding coat of mortar to lay the
stones in... If you set the pavers on the wet 2" of mortar they
would sink unevenly into the wet mortar depending on how
heavy they were and the mortar bed would take forever to cure...

~~ Evan

Why would it take longer for the mortar to cure?

Chuck Banshee wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jan 2012 21:12:22 +0000, Chuck Banshee wrote:

It took 1 bag of mortar (50#) and one gallon of water. No sand. No
rocks.

I think I used the wrong stuff.

What I used was pure mortar (no rock, no sand).

There is no such thing as mortar without sand. Mortar is cement, sand and
some lime. Add aggregate and it becomes concrete.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

On Sun, 29 Jan 2012 21:09:48 +0000 (UTC), Chuck Banshee
wrote:

On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 15:35:41 -0500, gfretwell wrote:
The first step is doing the puzzle. You start dry laying the stone just
to figure out what the pattern is going to be.

You're right!

It took me almost the entire day (Saturday) to do this step!

It's bad enough that I mostly have small well broken pieces to deal with.

Luckily, both the steel diamond saw and the brown-material masonry saw
easily cut the flagstone (although the diamond saw seems to cut twice as
fast). Both dust up terribly!

Use a wet saw. The water keeps the dust down considerably. BTW, why are you
cutting them at all?

On Sun, 29 Jan 2012 23:14:08 -0500, gfretwell wrote:

We always get the dry fit first.

Today I thought I'd finish the job (my first ever with concrete and my
first ever with flagstones) - but - alas - I only got six of about 18
flagstones cut. Sigh.

And, while laying them out uncut was certainly a good idea, it turns out
that I just couldn't fully process mentally the myriad permutations and
combinations inherent in that process. So, for example, three stones I
'thought' would fit perfectly, didn't fit.

So I had to remove them all anyway and start over (many times).
Here's a picture of just one permutation of the uncut flagstones:
http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7450595.jpg

I also learned that there's a LOT of leaning over with BOTH hands on the
heavy stones and you can't get around that (because there is a wall in
front of you). The best you can do is put a towel on your head to protect
it as you lean against the wall and use both hands on the stone.

Here's a picture of the cut stones.
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7450606.jpg

If anyone knows whether that last (outside) edge cut is supposed to be
cut BEFORE or AFTER the flagstones are laid in concrete, it would be
helpful if you can let me know (before I make the final call on that).

Thanks for all your help!
- The hardest part is the dry jigsaw-puzzle and the cutting choices
- Given very few usable stones to work with doesn't help the matter
- Tomorrow, I hope, to finish the dry cutting - and then mortar them in!

On Sun, 29 Jan 2012 19:06:55 -0500, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
Use a wet saw. The water keeps the dust down considerably.
BTW, why are you cutting them at all?

While that's great advice, I don't have a helper to spray a hose on the
diamond saw, nor a wet saw apparatus - so - for this (my first concrete &
flagstone job) - it's going to have to be done dusty!

And, I understand why many are saying NOT to cut the stones, but this
picture should show why I must cut all the edges of the stones to match
the existing water featu
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7450637.jpg

BTW, I noticed water seeping out of the concrete of the water feature
(see the picture for details).

Is that water leak easily repairable while I'm working on this project?

On Sun, 29 Jan 2012 16:57:08 -0500, dadiOH wrote:
There is no such thing as mortar without sand. Mortar is cement, sand
and some lime. Add aggregate and it becomes concrete.

I appreciably stand corrected (I didn't ADD any more sand).

BTW, I've learned a bunch of 'little' things:
*
*
*
*
*
*

On Sun, 29 Jan 2012 16:57:08 -0500, dadiOH wrote:
There is no such thing as mortar without sand. Mortar is cement, sand
and some lime. Add aggregate and it becomes concrete.

I appreciably stand corrected (I didn't ADD any more sand).

I've never mixed cement/mortar before so this is a first for me. Tomorrow
I hope to finish the job so I'll go to Home Depot to pick up about ten
bags of mortar, concrete, sand, and rock.

BTW, I've learned a bunch of 'little' things so far:
* Flip the ROUGH side down & the GOOD side up on all stones FIRST
* Then SORT the stones by large, medium, & small (I put them on shelves)
* Then SORT AGAIN, this time by square, rectangular, & triangular
* Once they're sorted, lay the stones on the walkway as best you can
* It helps greatly to put a thin board against the wall to give yourself
room to judge where to cut the top line (against the wall)
* Where funny shapes arise, it helps to put an entire stone on top of them
* It helps to have something soft (like a towel) to pad your head as
you're ALWAYS LEANING OVER with both hands on the stone so your head is
the third leg of the tripod (your knees being the other two legs)
* It helps to put a one-inch board between the cuts of the stone to get
an idea of the finished fit
* At some points, I just said TO HECK WITH IT and started cutting - at
least putting a definite edge on a stone eliminated one variable - things
went easier when I did that!
* It takes a TON MORE MORTAR than you think it will!
* Cutting the sandstone is very easy with a 7" circular saw with a
diamond blade. The composite blade didn't work as well.
* However, it's nearly impossible to REMOVE the blade! A normal wood saw
has teeth you can jam a stick of wood in to immobilize the shaft. How DO
you guys immobilize the shaft when using these composite blades?

PS: The mud had a benefit of showing exactly where the bobcat visited my
construction site last night!
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7450681.jpg

Chuck Banshee wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jan 2012 16:57:08 -0500, dadiOH wrote:
There is no such thing as mortar without sand. Mortar is cement,
sand and some lime. Add aggregate and it becomes concrete.

I appreciably stand corrected (I didn't ADD any more sand).

I've never mixed cement/mortar before so this is a first for me.
Tomorrow I hope to finish the job so I'll go to Home Depot to pick up
about ten bags of mortar, concrete, sand, and rock.

If you are buying concrete, why do you want sand and rock? If you are
buying bags of *cement* you would need the sand and rock but you'd be far
better off economically buying it by the yard from a purveyor of same.
_____________


* It takes a TON MORE MORTAR than you think it will!

It should not take all that much to lay stone on an existing slab. All you
need is about 1/2" + enough to keep the thinnest stone level with the
thickest. If the stone bottom is highly irregular, butter it flat with
mortar.

How DO you guys immobilize the shaft when using these composite
blades?

I use my fingers. Occasionally but rarely, visegrips. The shaft on your
saw is shaped, right? The masonry blade hole is also shaped, right?

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

wrote:

The quartzite granite we use is so hard it just laughs at a diamond
blade. You can get through it but it is painfully slow. The fiber
blades just smoke and wear away.


Just a technical FYI, quartzite is not granite; it is metamorphized
sandstone. For that matter, what most people call granite isn't granite;
"igneous rock" would be a better term.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

Chuck Banshee wrote:

If anyone knows whether that last (outside) edge cut is supposed to be
cut BEFORE or AFTER the flagstones are laid in concrete, it would be
helpful if you can let me know (before I make the final call on that).

If you want the outside edge of the stones to be flush with the outside
vertical wall, you would be hard put to cut them after laying without
screwing up the wall.

If I were doing it and wanted that edge to be straight, I would...

1. Dry lay the stones. Note that the inside edge need not be chock-a-block
to the pond wall (IMO)

2. Draw a line on the underneath front edge of the stone, number the stones
sequentially on the top.

2a. If you think you'd have trouble getting the stones back where they
belong, mark the edges of the stones on the vertical walls.

3. Cut all the stones on the line you marked

4. Lay the stones aligning the front (outside) edge with the wall.



--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

Chuck Banshee wrote:
-snip-
I also learned that there's a LOT of leaning over with BOTH hands on the
heavy stones and you can't get around that (because there is a wall in
front of you). The best you can do is put a towel on your head to protect
it as you lean against the wall and use both hands on the stone.

There may be a special one of these for stone-- I know they are
indispensable [to me] when setting heavy blocks or carry bricks-
http://www.capcityequipment.com/mbmothers2305.html

Jim

On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 06:58:18 -0500, dadiOH wrote:

If you are buying concrete, why do you want sand and rock? If you are
buying bags of *cement* you would need the sand and rock but you'd be
far better off economically buying it by the yard from a purveyor of
same. _____________

I'm not sure if I'm using the words right.

I'm buying 'stuff' to put UNDER the flagstones and 'mortar' to put in the
joints above.

I guess that's 'cement' but I'll look up what 'concrete' is (because I
thought they were one and the same). Mea culpa.

On 1/30/2012 8:54 AM, Chuck Banshee wrote:
....

I guess that's 'cement' but I'll look up what 'concrete' is (because I
thought they were one and the same). Mea culpa.

No, 'cement' is only the glue portion. Concrete is a mixture of mostly
aggregrates (sand and gravel/rock, etc.) bound w/ the cement.

Mortar is a specific blend of cement and sand w/ additional addends
specifically for use in stone/brick/block laying between joints.

--

On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 07:16:31 -0500, dadiOH wrote:
If you want the outside edge of the stones to be flush with the outside
vertical wall, you would be hard put to cut them after laying without
screwing up the wall.

I'm confused.

I thank you for the description - but I don't understand as you 'seem'
to be talking about cutting the edge near the wall. Please allow me to
clarify (in case I explained it wrong).

The edge near the vertical wall is already cut. So are the side-to-side
edges (next to each block).

The edge I'm unsure about is the edge that eventually ends up in the
grass. That's what I'm calling the outside edge.

Here's a picture, taken just now at first light, that has the edge that I
was asking about pointed to.
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7452746.jpg

I am not sure if it's best to cut that pencil line (which cuts the length
of each stone to exactly fifteen 1/2 inches away from the wall) BEFORE or
AFTER I set the stones in cement & mortar???

(Note: Unless suggested otherwise, I plan on cutting that line AFTER I
lay the stones permanently. That way, the outside (cut) line will always
be straight. I plan on snapping a chalk line where the pencil marks now
are and then slicing it with the circular saw & diamond blade.)

But I've never done this ... so that's why I ask. It just seems too hard
to get that outside edge straight any other way.

Chuck Banshee wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 06:58:18 -0500, dadiOH wrote:

If you are buying concrete, why do you want sand and rock? If you
are buying bags of *cement* you would need the sand and rock but
you'd be far better off economically buying it by the yard from a
purveyor of same. _____________

I'm not sure if I'm using the words right.

I'm buying 'stuff' to put UNDER the flagstones and 'mortar' to put in
the joints above.

I'm getting rather confused here. You are laying the stone on an existing
concrete slab, right? You want something to hold it to the slab, right?
That something is mortar. Could be Type N mortar...could be Type S
mortar...could be thinset but they are all "mortar". When you put mortar in
joints, it is called "grout". (For tile with very narrow joints, the grout
is just cement, see below).

I guess that's 'cement' but I'll look up what 'concrete' is (because I
thought they were one and the same). Mea culpa.

Cement is burned limestone. It winds up as a grey powder. Mix it with
water and there is a chemical reaction that makes the powder hard again.
Not very strong, though. Mix sand with cement (along with some lime) and you
have mortar. Still not all that strong. Mix in aggregate - various sized
crushed rock - and it is concrete. Strong as you can get with cement.

For what you are doing, you have absolutely no need for cement unless you
plan to use it to make your own mortar and/or concrete. I doubt you are and
if you are, I suggest you don't.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

Chuck Banshee wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 07:16:31 -0500, dadiOH wrote:
If you want the outside edge of the stones to be flush with the
outside vertical wall, you would be hard put to cut them after
laying without screwing up the wall.

I'm confused.

I thank you for the description - but I don't understand as you 'seem'
to be talking about cutting the edge near the wall. Please allow me
to clarify (in case I explained it wrong).

The edge near the vertical wall is already cut. So are the
side-to-side edges (next to each block).

The edge I'm unsure about is the edge that eventually ends up in the
grass. That's what I'm calling the outside edge.

Here's a picture, taken just now at first light, that has the edge
that I was asking about pointed to.
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7452746.jpg

OK, in the link in the post to which I replied, I thought you were talking
about the stones on the ledge.
_____________________

I am not sure if it's best to cut that pencil line (which cuts the
length of each stone to exactly fifteen 1/2 inches away from the
wall) BEFORE or AFTER I set the stones in cement & mortar???

I'd still cut them before, seems easier to have them at a workable height.
All you have to do mark them is make a couple of spacers, lay a straight
edge aginst them on top of the dry laid stones and mark them. NP getting
the cut edges lined up nice and straight when you lay them, just butt the
cut edge to a straight edge spiked to the ground.

(Note: Unless suggested otherwise, I plan on cutting that line AFTER I
lay the stones permanently. That way, the outside (cut) line will
always be straight. I plan on snapping a chalk line where the pencil
marks now are and then slicing it with the circular saw & diamond
blade.)

I'm still unsure of how you plan to bed the stones you have on the ground.
If a compacted bed, cutting the stones after laying will disturb it unless
you control the depth of cut carefully. How do you plan to retain the
stones laterally?

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:41:30 -0500, "dadiOH"
wrote:


I am not sure if it's best to cut that pencil line (which cuts the
length of each stone to exactly fifteen 1/2 inches away from the
wall) BEFORE or AFTER I set the stones in cement & mortar???

I'd still cut them before, seems easier to have them at a workable height.
All you have to do mark them is make a couple of spacers, lay a straight
edge aginst them on top of the dry laid stones and mark them. NP getting
the cut edges lined up nice and straight when you lay them, just butt the
cut edge to a straight edge spiked to the ground.

I vote cutting before the stone is set. Just in case the stone breaks
during the cut. Flagstone is soft, as we know.

On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 06:58:18 -0500, dadiOH wrote:
If you are buying concrete, why do you want sand and rock?

Today I bought what I needed.

Up until this moment, I've been mis-using the terms concrete & cement &
mortar & grout.

I'll open a separate general-interest thread on what the differences are.

I'm amazed (and chagrined) that I've lived this long without knowing the
difference between these 'things'.

So please take everything I've said with a grain of salt since I've been
mis-using the terms by sheer ignorance.

On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 09:09:07 -0600, dpb wrote:

No, 'cement' is only the glue portion. Concrete is a mixture of mostly
aggregrates (sand and gravel/rock, etc.) bound w/ the cement.

Mortar is a specific blend of cement and sand w/ additional addends
specifically for use in stone/brick/block laying between joints.

I'm only just realizing I didn't have a clue what to call these 'things'.

I'll open up a separate thread to clarify the terms (concrete, cement,
mortar, & grout) which I now know about only because I had to buy them
just now at Home Depot.

On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:28:42 -0500, dadiOH wrote:

Chuck Banshee wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 06:58:18 -0500, dadiOH wrote:

If you are buying concrete, why do you want sand and rock? If you are
buying bags of *cement* you would need the sand and rock but you'd be
far better off economically buying it by the yard from a purveyor of
same. _____________

I'm not sure if I'm using the words right.

I'm buying 'stuff' to put UNDER the flagstones and 'mortar' to put in
the joints above.

I'm getting rather confused here. You are laying the stone on an
existing concrete slab, right? You want something to hold it to the
slab, right? That something is mortar. Could be Type N mortar...could
be Type S mortar...could be thinset but they are all "mortar". When you
put mortar in joints, it is called "grout". (For tile with very narrow
joints, the grout is just cement, see below).

I guess that's 'cement' but I'll look up what 'concrete' is (because I
thought they were one and the same). Mea culpa.

Cement is burned limestone. It winds up as a grey powder. Mix it with
water and there is a chemical reaction that makes the powder hard again.
Not very strong, though. Mix sand with cement (along with some lime) and
you have mortar. Still not all that strong. Mix in aggregate - various
sized crushed rock - and it is concrete. Strong as you can get with
cement.

For what you are doing, you have absolutely no need for cement unless
you plan to use it to make your own mortar and/or concrete.

I've been using terms all wrong!

So the confusion started with me!

Today, I went to Home Depot to buy 'stuff', which turned out to be a
choice between (cement + lime + aggregate) or concrete mix or mortar mix
or grout mix (which is three times as expensive as mortar mix so I
suspect something is different).

Anyway, I'll open a separate thread after I write this to clarify for me
(and anyone else who cares to learn) to learn from you guys the
differences.

I'm sorry for the confusion. It's my fault for being ignorant of the
terms!

On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 13:41:30 -0500, dadiOH wrote:
I'm still unsure of how you plan to bed the stones you have on the
ground. If a compacted bed, cutting the stones after laying will disturb
it unless you control the depth of cut carefully. How do you plan to
retain the stones laterally?

It was my fault for confusing all the terms (cement, mortar, concrete,
etc.).

This half of the flagstone walkway already has an old 'concrete' base
(which I found unexpectedly when I dug up the lawn). So, all I will be
doing is putting 'mortar' on top of the concrete, about an inch (or so)
thick.

Then I will lay the flagstones in that bed of mortar and I will fill the
half-inch in between each stone with that same mortar.

Since the flagstones are of varying thicknesses, I will tap them with a
rubber mallet and use a level to level them off.

Then, after it all sets (a day or two later), my plan is to snap a chalk
line and then saw off the outside edge as shown in the previous pictu
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7452746.jpg

The reason for sawing AFTER (and not before) is that I am hoping to get a
straighter edge than if I tried to even up each and every flagstone while
I am setting them in mortar.

Is this plan 'normal' to saw the ends off last?

On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 11:32:52 -0800, Oren wrote:

I vote cutting before the stone is set. Just in case the stone breaks
during the cut. Flagstone is soft, as we know.

That's a good point. I've already ruined a couple by chipping as I was
cutting them.

Of course, that then means I have to be extra specially careful that I
put the mortar in the "grout slots" (whatever the slots between stones is
called) perfectly at the outside edge - or there will be messy blobs.

Hopefully, when it's done, I'll snap a picture and you guys might approve
(with caveats, I'm sure).

Chuck Banshee wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 11:32:52 -0800, Oren wrote:

Of course, that then means I have to be extra specially careful that I
put the mortar in the "grout slots" (whatever the slots between
stones is called) perfectly at the outside edge - or there will be
messy blobs.

The slots are called "joints". Or even "spaces". You pack the grout into
the joints and yes, it will ooze out at the outside edge. After it sets a
bit - or even before depending on how stiff it is - take a trowel and cut
off the ooze out. Later, improve it more with the grout sponge someone
mentioned.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 14:43:33 -0500, gfretwell wrote:

The biggest mistake most new guys make is using too much water.

My first mortar mix was way way way too wet so I agree with you!
(Although I used the 1 gallon to 50 pounds as stated on the mortar bag.)


You want the Type S mortar to be the consistency of peanut butter
Whew! I didn't see this until now but I bought 5 sixty-pound bags of
"Sakrete Type S Masonry Mortar" ... so at least I got the right stuff.

Start with about half a bag and see how that goes.

Thanks. I'm going very slowly (about an hour per stone just for the
cutting - so I suspect the mortaring will be just as slow - at least
until I figure it out).

Once the mortar gets finger dent hard (maybe several hours if it is cool
outside), then you can start wiping the excess mud off.

That's good to know. I picked up a big sponge to clean the tops of the
stones. I'm not sure if I should use acid as I am unsure if it can damage
the 'sandstone' flagstones.

Chuck Banshee wrote:

This half of the flagstone walkway already has an old 'concrete' base
(which I found unexpectedly when I dug up the lawn). So, all I will be
doing is putting 'mortar' on top of the concrete, about an inch (or
so) thick.

The concrete was under the lawn? Be SURE to clean it well before you lay
anything. I hesitate to mention it but hydrochloric acid (muriatic acid)
works well for that. A dilute solution...and note that one adds acid to the
water, NEVER the reverse.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 15:45:51 -0500, dadiOH wrote:
The concrete was under the lawn?

Yes. So were the sprinkler heads.

This picture has an arrow where the concrete is now - and where the soil
line was before I dug it all out.

http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7455798.jpg

Be SURE to clean it well before you lay anything.

Hmmm... I can get hydrochloric acid but why would it need cleaning with
acid if it's just dirt?

On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 20:34:34 +0000 (UTC), Chuck Banshee
wrote:

On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 11:32:52 -0800, Oren wrote:

I vote cutting before the stone is set. Just in case the stone breaks
during the cut. Flagstone is soft, as we know.

That's a good point. I've already ruined a couple by chipping as I was
cutting them.


Don't do that.

Of course, that then means I have to be extra specially careful that I
put the mortar in the "grout slots" (whatever the slots between stones is
called) perfectly at the outside edge - or there will be messy blobs.


Stop trying to be "perfect". Let some things go, they look "good from
my house".

Hopefully, when it's done, I'll snap a picture and you guys might approve
(with caveats, I'm sure).

I'll start. Identify those wires in the project. (picture promised).

Happy Ground Hog Day.

On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 09:09:19 +0000 (UTC), Chuck Banshee
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Jan 2012 19:06:55 -0500, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
Use a wet saw. The water keeps the dust down considerably.
BTW, why are you cutting them at all?

While that's great advice, I don't have a helper to spray a hose on the
diamond saw, nor a wet saw apparatus - so - for this (my first concrete &
flagstone job) - it's going to have to be done dusty!

When I cut concrete, I just propped the hose up between a couple of blocks to
flood the area I was cutting. I have a wet saw for this sort of work, though.
It needs a new motor, though. :-(

And, I understand why many are saying NOT to cut the stones, but this
picture should show why I must cut all the edges of the stones to match
the existing water featu
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7450637.jpg

I see, though be careful that the edges don't overhang. Even then, they'll
likely crack and pieces splinter off over time.

BTW, I noticed water seeping out of the concrete of the water feature
(see the picture for details).
Where is it coming from?

Is that water leak easily repairable while I'm working on this project?