In the same crock I have two sump pumps on two separate breakers. The
primary pump has a check valve installed and it drains into a underground
pipe that runs to a sewer. The backup pump float is set a little higher and
turns on if the primary doesn't. One and a half inch pvc pipe that rises
about 8 ft and does a 90 degree turn before heading outside and draining
onto the lawn and it has no check valve.

So here are the questions...Is there a valid reason for not having a check
valve on the backup? I had a failure on the primary pump and it seemed half
the crock was refilled by the remnants in the pipe draining back after the
backup pump shut off.

Is there a standard height a check valve should be installed and wouldn't it
make sense to install one on the backup pump?

This was the arrangement when we bought the house in March and I only
noticed this after the primary failed. Actually, the pump didn't fail, the
float switch did. $30 for a replacement.

Check valve is useful, if there is a risk that water will
flow back from the "where ever" into the sump crock. If the
backup pump discharge outlet isn't in water, it's not likely
to flow back.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Joe J" wrote in message
...
In the same crock I have two sump pumps on two separate
breakers. The
primary pump has a check valve installed and it drains into
a underground
pipe that runs to a sewer. The backup pump float is set a
little higher and
turns on if the primary doesn't. One and a half inch pvc
pipe that rises
about 8 ft and does a 90 degree turn before heading outside
and draining
onto the lawn and it has no check valve.

So here are the questions...Is there a valid reason for not
having a check
valve on the backup? I had a failure on the primary pump
and it seemed half
the crock was refilled by the remnants in the pipe draining
back after the
backup pump shut off.

Is there a standard height a check valve should be installed
and wouldn't it
make sense to install one on the backup pump?

This was the arrangement when we bought the house in March
and I only
noticed this after the primary failed. Actually, the pump
didn't fail, the
float switch did. $30 for a replacement.

On Nov 20, 9:10 am, "Joe J" wrote:
In the same crock I have two sump pumps on two separate breakers. The
primary pump has a check valve installed and it drains into a underground
pipe that runs to a sewer. The backup pump float is set a little higher and
turns on if the primary doesn't. One and a half inch pvc pipe that rises
about 8 ft and does a 90 degree turn before heading outside and draining
onto the lawn and it has no check valve.

So here are the questions...Is there a valid reason for not having a check
valve on the backup? I had a failure on the primary pump and it seemed half
the crock was refilled by the remnants in the pipe draining back after the
backup pump shut off.

Is there a standard height a check valve should be installed and wouldn't it
make sense to install one on the backup pump?

This was the arrangement when we bought the house in March and I only
noticed this after the primary failed. Actually, the pump didn't fail, the
float switch did. $30 for a replacement.

Andy comments:

I would think that if the water level get high enough to fill the
second
pump (as a result of the higher float switch), that a check valve
wouldn't
be necessary.....
` The check balve is merely to keep the pump primed, and if the pump
is flooded, a check shouldn't be necessary unless it clicks on before
the
water level is high enough...... HOWEVER, that being said, what is
the
nature of the second sump pump.?? Is it a submersible, or is it a
pump
that is mounted above the water level ?? That would be a problem....
and
I would use a check valve....

I will read with interest the advice given here by others. Lots
of good
info to be gleanded from this group...

Andy in Eureka, Texas P.E.

"Andy" wrote in message
...
On Nov 20, 9:10 am, "Joe J" wrote:
In the same crock I have two sump pumps on two separate breakers. The
primary pump has a check valve installed and it drains into a underground
pipe that runs to a sewer. The backup pump float is set a little higher
and
turns on if the primary doesn't. One and a half inch pvc pipe that rises
about 8 ft and does a 90 degree turn before heading outside and draining
onto the lawn and it has no check valve.

So here are the questions...Is there a valid reason for not having a
check
valve on the backup? I had a failure on the primary pump and it seemed
half
the crock was refilled by the remnants in the pipe draining back after
the
backup pump shut off.

Is there a standard height a check valve should be installed and wouldn't
it
make sense to install one on the backup pump?

This was the arrangement when we bought the house in March and I only
noticed this after the primary failed. Actually, the pump didn't fail,
the
float switch did. $30 for a replacement.

Andy comments:

I would think that if the water level get high enough to fill the
second
pump (as a result of the higher float switch), that a check valve
wouldn't
be necessary.....
` The check balve is merely to keep the pump primed, and if the pump
is flooded, a check shouldn't be necessary unless it clicks on before
the
water level is high enough...... HOWEVER, that being said, what is
the
nature of the second sump pump.?? Is it a submersible, or is it a
pump
that is mounted above the water level ?? That would be a problem....
and
I would use a check valve....

I will read with interest the advice given here by others. Lots
of good
info to be gleanded from this group...

Andy in Eureka, Texas P.E.

Both pumps are submersible, only difference is where float turn on point is
set on each.

On Nov 20, 10:10*am, "Joe J" wrote:
In the same crock I have two sump pumps on two separate breakers. *The
primary pump has a check valve installed and it drains into a underground
pipe that runs to a sewer. *The backup pump float is set a little higher and
turns on if the primary doesn't. *One and a half inch pvc pipe that rises
about 8 ft and does a 90 degree turn before heading outside and draining
onto the lawn and it has no check valve.

So here are the questions...Is there a valid reason for not having a check
valve on the backup?

One reason I can think of is to save a few $$, because the
backup will rarely, if ever, be used. And the only downside
to not having a check valve is that some water will run back
in. For an installation where the pump only runs occasionally,
it's a backup, etc and not that much water runs back in, it's
not an issue.

Other reason would be if water that would be held in place
by a check valve is subject to freezing. Then it would be
relying on water being able to drain back to prevent freezing.


*I had a failure on the primary pump and it seemed half
the crock was refilled by the remnants in the pipe draining back after the
backup pump shut off.

How much water runs back in is determined by how much
pipe there is that is left filled with water when the pump
shuts off. In your case it sounds like it's substantial amount.




Is there a standard height a check valve should be installed and wouldn't it
make sense to install one on the backup pump?

The closer it is to the pump the less water will flow back.
Height isn't an issue. Usually it's put above the sump pit
for convenience. If a lot of water flows back, then yes
it would make sense to put one in to keep the pump from
going on and off more frequently.



This was the arrangement when we bought the house in March and I only
noticed this after the primary failed. *Actually, the pump didn't fail, the
float switch did. *$30 for a replacement.

I thought the check valve is to keep water from coming back
in (backwards) via the discharge pipe. I think you may be
thinking about a foot valve, in a drilled well?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Andy" wrote in message
...

The check balve is merely to keep the pump primed, and if
the pump
is flooded, a check shouldn't be necessary unless it clicks
on before
the
water level is high enough...... HOWEVER, that being said,
what is
the
nature of the second sump pump.?? Is it a submersible, or
is it a
pump
that is mounted above the water level ?? That would be a
problem....
and
I would use a check valve....

I will read with interest the advice given here by
others. Lots
of good
info to be gleanded from this group...

Andy in Eureka, Texas P.E.

On Nov 20, 10:18*am, Andy wrote:
On Nov 20, 9:10 am, "Joe J" wrote:





In the same crock I have two sump pumps on two separate breakers. *The
primary pump has a check valve installed and it drains into a underground
pipe that runs to a sewer. *The backup pump float is set a little higher and
turns on if the primary doesn't. *One and a half inch pvc pipe that rises
about 8 ft and does a 90 degree turn before heading outside and draining
onto the lawn and it has no check valve.

So here are the questions...Is there a valid reason for not having a check
valve on the backup? *I had a failure on the primary pump and it seemed half
the crock was refilled by the remnants in the pipe draining back after the
backup pump shut off.

Is there a standard height a check valve should be installed and wouldn't it
make sense to install one on the backup pump?

This was the arrangement when we bought the house in March and I only
noticed this after the primary failed. *Actually, the pump didn't fail, the
float switch did. *$30 for a replacement.

Andy comments:

* I would think that if the water level get high enough to fill the
second
pump (as a result of the higher float switch), that a check valve
wouldn't
be necessary.....
` * The check balve is merely to keep the pump primed,

Sump pumps are all self-priming out of necessity. And
a check valve will not keep it primed anyway. The water
between the pump and the valve drains back into the
sump pit. The valve is there to keept the rest of the water,
which could be substantial depending on how the piping
is run, from draining back into the pit. If it does, the pump
is just re-pumping that same amount of water that drains
back each cycle.




and if the pump
is flooded, a check shouldn't be necessary unless it clicks on before
the
water level is high enough...... *HOWEVER, that being said, what is
the
nature of the second sump pump.?? *Is it a submersible, or is it a
pump
that is mounted above the water level ??

How many sump pumps have you seen that are mounted
above the water level? Every single one I've ever seen
sits in the sump pump pit, in the water.



That would be a problem....
and
I would use a check valve....

* * I will read with interest the advice given here by others. *Lots
of good
info to be gleanded from this group...

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Andy in Eureka, Texas * P.E.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Nov 20, 9:27 am, "
wrote:

How many sump pumps have you seen that are mounted
above the water level? Every single one I've ever seen
sits in the sump pump pit, in the water.

That would be a problem....


Andy replies:
None. But , based on the post, I wasn't sure the OP was referring
to a "sump pump", or a "pump that was used to pump out a sump".

People in different areas sometimes have different terminologies..

JoeJ replied that they were both submersible, hence, I can't see why
a check valve would be needed for either....

I agree with your post...but I can't see why you replied to "me"
rather
than Joe J...

Andy in Eureka, Texas PE

On Nov 20, 9:25 am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
I thought the check valve is to keep water from coming back
in (backwards) via the discharge pipe. I think you may be
thinking about a foot valve, in a drilled well?

Andy answers:
A question of terminology..... Both do the same thing --- a valve
that
allows matter to flow in one direction.
In my experience, a "foot" valve is often mated with a screen and a
"check" valve is simply inserted in-line...
If JoeJ's pumps are both submersible, I can't see where either
could
be used..... Perhaps I am missing something, since the submersibles
I have used don't have a convenient place to add either one......

I'd be happy to get information on my error.....

Andy in Eureka, Texas PE

"Andy" wrote in message
...
On Nov 20, 9:27 am, "
wrote:

How many sump pumps have you seen that are mounted
above the water level? Every single one I've ever seen
sits in the sump pump pit, in the water.

That would be a problem....


Andy replies:
None. But , based on the post, I wasn't sure the OP was referring
to a "sump pump", or a "pump that was used to pump out a sump".

People in different areas sometimes have different terminologies..

JoeJ replied that they were both submersible, hence, I can't see why
a check valve would be needed for either....

I agree with your post...but I can't see why you replied to "me"
rather
than Joe J...

Andy in Eureka, Texas PE

Still trying to stay on topic. Both are submersible, primary has a check
valve that prevents the water from draining back into the crock. Backup has
no check valve and has at least 12 feet of 1.5" PVC before it reaches
outside. When that pump turns off, the contents of that 1.5" pipe drain
back into the crock and almost refill it. Yes it is just a backup and in
theory only runs if the primary fails, but in this case the primary did fail
and it didn't seem very economical to have it pumping the same water twice.
So, spend X dollars and install a check valve? I'll do it myself.

in a typical installation there would be a union beneath the check valve for
easy replacement and trader it it on the head the check valve prevents the
discharge water in the pipe from refilling the sump
"Joe J" wrote in message
...
In the same crock I have two sump pumps on two separate breakers. The
primary pump has a check valve installed and it drains into a underground
pipe that runs to a sewer. The backup pump float is set a little higher
and turns on if the primary doesn't. One and a half inch pvc pipe that
rises about 8 ft and does a 90 degree turn before heading outside and
draining onto the lawn and it has no check valve.

So here are the questions...Is there a valid reason for not having a check
valve on the backup? I had a failure on the primary pump and it seemed
half the crock was refilled by the remnants in the pipe draining back
after the backup pump shut off.

Is there a standard height a check valve should be installed and wouldn't
it make sense to install one on the backup pump?

This was the arrangement when we bought the house in March and I only
noticed this after the primary failed. Actually, the pump didn't fail,
the float switch did. $30 for a replacement.

Joe J wrote:
In the same crock I have two sump pumps on two separate breakers. The
primary pump has a check valve installed and it drains into a
underground pipe that runs to a sewer. The backup pump float is set a
little higher and turns on if the primary doesn't. One and a half inch
pvc pipe that rises about 8 ft and does a 90 degree turn before heading
outside and draining onto the lawn and it has no check valve.

So here are the questions...Is there a valid reason for not having a
check valve on the backup? I had a failure on the primary pump and it
seemed half the crock was refilled by the remnants in the pipe draining
back after the backup pump shut off.

Is there a standard height a check valve should be installed and
wouldn't it make sense to install one on the backup pump?

This was the arrangement when we bought the house in March and I only
noticed this after the primary failed. Actually, the pump didn't fail,
the float switch did. $30 for a replacement.
Hi,
Our house does not have water problem but I installed check valve in the
main sewer line. It is good safety feature. Very unlikely but worst case
your two pump can fight each other.

On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 09:43:57 -0600, "Joe J"
wrote:


Still trying to stay on topic. Both are submersible, primary has a check
valve that prevents the water from draining back into the crock. Backup has
no check valve and has at least 12 feet of 1.5" PVC before it reaches
outside. When that pump turns off, the contents of that 1.5" pipe drain
back into the crock and almost refill it. Yes it is just a backup and in
theory only runs if the primary fails, but in this case the primary did fail
and it didn't seem very economical to have it pumping the same water twice.
So, spend X dollars and install a check valve? I'll do it myself.

Put a check valve on it. Cheap and easy.
I have 2 pumps and put a check valve on each.

--Vic

Andy comments:

Joe, I'm sorry, but I really don't understand.. If both pumps are
submersible, --- by that I mean the type that, when operational, is
partially submerged in the sump, I don't see the need for a check
valve in either.... As long as the float switches are above the pump
levels, the pump will be flooded.. and primed.... Water flowing back
down a discharge pipe will flow out to the ambient water level, which,
if the pump is still submerged, shouldn't matter.....

However, if your "primary" pump didn't work, you should get it
fixed.... As a suggestion, the problem may actually be in the
float switch (sold at Home Depot as a separate item for about $30
USD)..
and is easy to replace..... generally.... The float switch fails more
than the pump does, in my experience....... which may not be as
great on this issue as other posters..

I like the idea of a backup..... especially if a small flood will
cause you serious difficulty or loss... But I'd have both systems
working ..... That's just me, tho....And I really like the "separate
breaker" approach...

Andy in Eureka, Texas

On 11/20/2011 10:43 AM, Joe J wrote:

"Andy" wrote in message
...
On Nov 20, 9:27 am, "
wrote:

How many sump pumps have you seen that are mounted
above the water level? Every single one I've ever seen
sits in the sump pump pit, in the water.

That would be a problem....


Andy replies:
None. But , based on the post, I wasn't sure the OP was referring
to a "sump pump", or a "pump that was used to pump out a sump".

People in different areas sometimes have different terminologies..

JoeJ replied that they were both submersible, hence, I can't see why
a check valve would be needed for either....

I agree with your post...but I can't see why you replied to "me"
rather
than Joe J...

Andy in Eureka, Texas PE

Still trying to stay on topic. Both are submersible, primary has a check
valve that prevents the water from draining back into the crock. Backup
has no check valve and has at least 12 feet of 1.5" PVC before it
reaches outside. When that pump turns off, the contents of that 1.5"
pipe drain back into the crock and almost refill it. Yes it is just a
backup and in theory only runs if the primary fails, but in this case
the primary did fail and it didn't seem very economical to have it
pumping the same water twice.
So, spend X dollars and install a check valve? I'll do it myself.
I've always had check valves on both pumps in my old house for some 37
years. Both pumps were submersible and one was battery operated. The
only problem I had was with the battery pump. Sometimes, the head of
water would keep the battery pump from actually pumping, even though it
was running. The instructions on the Basement Watchdog battery pump say
to drill a small hole in the pipe just above where it connects to the
pump. I did it, and it worked. The best sump system is what I have now
.... gravity. All perimeter tiles are just going to the side of the
mountain. If, for some reason, water should get in the basement (a walk
out on one side) just open the door.

"Andy" wrote in message
...
Andy comments:

Joe, I'm sorry, but I really don't understand.. If both pumps are
submersible, --- by that I mean the type that, when operational, is
partially submerged in the sump, I don't see the need for a check
valve in either.... As long as the float switches are above the pump
levels, the pump will be flooded.. and primed.... Water flowing back
down a discharge pipe will flow out to the ambient water level, which,
if the pump is still submerged, shouldn't matter.....

However, if your "primary" pump didn't work, you should get it
fixed.... As a suggestion, the problem may actually be in the
float switch (sold at Home Depot as a separate item for about $30
USD)..
and is easy to replace..... generally.... The float switch fails more
than the pump does, in my experience....... which may not be as
great on this issue as other posters..

I like the idea of a backup..... especially if a small flood will
cause you serious difficulty or loss... But I'd have both systems
working ..... That's just me, tho....And I really like the "separate
breaker" approach...

Andy in Eureka, Texas


Maybe I'm not being clear. I replaced the float on the primary and I'm back
to having two operational pumps. A primary and a backup that kicks in if
the primary should fail. Both are submersible. If the primary fails and
the secondary needs to run, the water in the pipe seems to drain back down
and refill a portion of the crock because there is no check valve to prevent
the water from draining back down.
My original question was if there was a valid reason for not having a
check-valve in that pipe. From the answers, it doesn't appear to be any
reason to not have one and I can buy one for $10 and install it myself.

On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 08:51:08 -0700, Tony Hwang
wrote:

Our house does not have water problem but I installed check valve in the
main sewer line. It is good safety feature. Very unlikely but worst case
your two pump can fight each other.

Think he said they are on separate discharge lines, so they won't
fight. The check valve will prevent pumping the same water twice.

When I added the second pump to my pit with a Y I brain-farted with
the check valves and had to redo it.
One pump would backfeed through the other.
Putting a check valve over each pump discharge fixed it.

--Vic

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 08:51:08 -0700, Tony Hwang
wrote:

Our house does not have water problem but I installed check valve in the
main sewer line. It is good safety feature. Very unlikely but worst case
your two pump can fight each other.

Think he said they are on separate discharge lines, so they won't
fight. The check valve will prevent pumping the same water twice.

When I added the second pump to my pit with a Y I brain-farted with
the check valves and had to redo it.
One pump would backfeed through the other.
Putting a check valve over each pump discharge fixed it.

--Vic

Yes, two separate lines. One underground to the sewer, the other, out of
the side of the house and on the lawn.

On Nov 20, 11:06*am, Art Todesco wrote:
On 11/20/2011 10:43 AM, Joe J wrote:





"Andy" wrote in message
....
On Nov 20, 9:27 am, "
wrote:

How many sump pumps have you seen that are mounted
above the water level? Every single one I've ever seen
sits in the sump pump pit, in the water.

That would be a problem....

Andy replies:
None. But , based on the post, I wasn't sure the OP was referring
to a "sump pump", or a "pump that was used to pump out a sump".

People in different areas sometimes have different terminologies..

JoeJ replied that they were both submersible, hence, I can't see why
a check valve would be needed for either....

I agree with your post...but I can't see why you replied to "me"
rather
than Joe J...

Andy in Eureka, Texas PE

Still trying to stay on topic. Both are submersible, primary has a check
valve that prevents the water from draining back into the crock. Backup
has no check valve and has at least 12 feet of 1.5" PVC before it
reaches outside. When that pump turns off, the contents of that 1.5"
pipe drain back into the crock and almost refill it. Yes it is just a
backup and in theory only runs if the primary fails, but in this case
the primary did fail and it didn't seem very economical to have it
pumping the same water twice.
So, spend X dollars and install a check valve? I'll do it myself.

I've always had check valves on both pumps in my old house for some 37
years. * Both pumps were submersible and one was battery operated. *The
only problem I had was with the battery pump. *Sometimes, the head of
water would keep the battery pump from actually pumping, even though it
was running. *The instructions on the Basement Watchdog battery pump say
to drill a small hole in the pipe just above where it connects to the
pump. *I did it, and it worked.

That's a good point. If Joe adds a check valve, he should
put a small hole in the pipe too. Without a check valve, as
water rises in the pit, it will naturally rise inside the discharge
line as well, pushing air slowly out the discharge line. With
a check valve, the air is blocked, so you could have the portion
of the discharge line from the check valve down to the pump
itself filled with air. When the pump starts, it's possible the
line will remain air-locked. With the tiny hole the discharge
line will have water in it to the same level as the pit.

On Nov 20, 10:34*am, Andy wrote:
On Nov 20, 9:27 am, "
wrote:

How many sump pumps have you seen that are mounted
above the water level? *Every single one I've ever seen
sits in the sump pump pit, in the water.

That would be a problem....

Andy replies:
* None. *But , based on the post, I wasn't sure the OP was referring
to a "sump pump", *or a "pump that was used to pump out a sump".

"Dual sump pumps - check valve?

In the same crock I have two sump pumps on two separate breakers. "

It's one of the clearest posts I've seen.




* *People in different areas sometimes have different terminologies..

* JoeJ replied that they were both submersible, hence, I can't see why
a check valve would be needed for either....

" I had a failure on the primary pump and it seemed half
the crock was refilled by the remnants in the pipe draining back after
the backup pump shut off. "

That's why.




*I agree with your post...but I can't see why you replied to "me"
rather
than Joe J...


To correct the misinformation.


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Andy in Eureka, Texas * *PE

"Andy" wrote in message
...
Andy comments:

Joe, I'm sorry, but I really don't understand.. If both pumps are
submersible, --- by that I mean the type that, when operational, is
partially submerged in the sump, I don't see the need for a check
valve in either.... As long as the float switches are above the pump
levels, the pump will be flooded.. and primed.... Water flowing back
down a discharge pipe will flow out to the ambient water level, which,
if the pump is still submerged, shouldn't matter.....

However, if your "primary" pump didn't work, you should get it
fixed.... As a suggestion, the problem may actually be in the
float switch (sold at Home Depot as a separate item for about $30
USD)..
and is easy to replace..... generally.... The float switch fails more
than the pump does, in my experience....... which may not be as
great on this issue as other posters..

I like the idea of a backup..... especially if a small flood will
cause you serious difficulty or loss... But I'd have both systems
working ..... That's just me, tho....And I really like the "separate
breaker" approach...

Andy in Eureka, Texas


Andy

The only purpose of a check valve on a submersible pump is to prevent the
backflow which can cause the pump to cycle repeatedly.

The water in the pipe refills the basin prematurely. The pump kicks on,
shuts off and the whole process repeats again. Over time this can cause
premature pump failure. I once watched one with a small basin pump the same
water every 2 minutes. I added a check valve that very day.

For Joe: Add a check valve. Be sure to read the instructions. You need to
drill a 1/4" hole in the pipe near where it connects to the pump to allow
the water between the pump and the valve to drain.


--
Colbyt
Please come visit http://www.househomerepair.com

Would this hole be above the water line, or below?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Colbyt" wrote in message
m...

For Joe: Add a check valve. Be sure to read the
instructions. You need to
drill a 1/4" hole in the pipe near where it connects to the
pump to allow
the water between the pump and the valve to drain.


--
Colbyt
Please come visit http://www.househomerepair.com

On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 07:27:31 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:





How many sump pumps have you seen that are mounted
above the water level? Every single one I've ever seen
sits in the sump pump pit, in the water.




The three we have for a pit at work? They are actually part of a
water system and pump the water from a pit to a cooling tower and are
mounted at ground level. Thus the need for a foot valve. They draw
from a pit that is about 5' deep and pump to the tower that sits about
20' above ground level outside the building.

OTOH, you are correct about the typical sump pump application used in
basements. They are best right inside the pit and operated with a
float switch.

We do have a sump pump that has a check valve in line. The check is
needed because it is connected to a common line that other pumps are
connected to that go to the sewer. This is more in line with the
setup the OP is talking about. With no check valve, water will go
back to the other pump in line. IMO, the OP needs a check valve in
line after the pump.

On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 08:03:26 -0800 (PST), Andy
wrote:

Andy comments:

Joe, I'm sorry, but I really don't understand.. If both pumps are
submersible, --- by that I mean the type that, when operational, is
partially submerged in the sump, I don't see the need for a check
valve in either.... As long as the float switches are above the pump
levels, the pump will be flooded.. and primed.... Water flowing back
down a discharge pipe will flow out to the ambient water level, which,
if the pump is still submerged, shouldn't matter.....

I think you are right for the wrong reason. The two pumps discharge
to separate lines so no check valve is needed. If the pumps went to a
common line, the check valve would be needed to prevent backflow into
the other line and back to the crock.

"Steve Barker" wrote in message
...
On 11/20/2011 8:36 AM, Colbyt wrote:
wrote in message
...
Andy comments:

Joe, I'm sorry, but I really don't understand.. If both pumps are
submersible, --- by that I mean the type that, when operational, is
partially submerged in the sump, I don't see the need for a check
valve in either.... As long as the float switches are above the pump
levels, the pump will be flooded.. and primed.... Water flowing back
down a discharge pipe will flow out to the ambient water level, which,
if the pump is still submerged, shouldn't matter.....

However, if your "primary" pump didn't work, you should get it
fixed.... As a suggestion, the problem may actually be in the
float switch (sold at Home Depot as a separate item for about $30
USD)..
and is easy to replace..... generally.... The float switch fails more
than the pump does, in my experience....... which may not be as
great on this issue as other posters..

I like the idea of a backup..... especially if a small flood will
cause you serious difficulty or loss... But I'd have both systems
working ..... That's just me, tho....And I really like the "separate
breaker" approach...

Andy in Eureka, Texas


Andy

The only purpose of a check valve on a submersible pump is to prevent the
backflow which can cause the pump to cycle repeatedly.

The water in the pipe refills the basin prematurely. The pump kicks on,
shuts off and the whole process repeats again. Over time this can cause
premature pump failure. I once watched one with a small basin pump the
same
water every 2 minutes. I added a check valve that very day.

For Joe: Add a check valve. Be sure to read the instructions. You need
to
drill a 1/4" hole in the pipe near where it connects to the pump to allow
the water between the pump and the valve to drain.



the 1/4" hole is a wives tale. Not necessary.

Actually the hole is built into the pump on a Zoller pump. It is smaller
than 1/4" , but they seem to think it is important. When I was having a
problem the first thing they asked me was if the hole was plugged.

R


--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On Nov 20, 9:10*am, "Joe J" wrote:
In the same crock I have two sump pumps on two separate breakers. *The
primary pump has a check valve installed and it drains into a underground
pipe that runs to a sewer.

snip

In many communities in the here Midwest any sump water, eaves drainage
or whatever is illegal to discharge into a municipal sewer. Seems like
a good common sense ordinance to me. Have you checked your local codes
to be sure your discharge is compliant? If not, your unchecked line is
redundant.

Joe

On 11/20/2011 7:10 AM, Joe J wrote:
In the same crock I have two sump pumps on two separate breakers. The
primary pump has a check valve installed and it drains into a
underground pipe that runs to a sewer. The backup pump float is set a
little higher and turns on if the primary doesn't. One and a half inch
pvc pipe that rises about 8 ft and does a 90 degree turn before heading
outside and draining onto the lawn and it has no check valve.

So here are the questions...Is there a valid reason for not having a
check valve on the backup? I had a failure on the primary pump and it
seemed half the crock was refilled by the remnants in the pipe draining
back after the backup pump shut off.

Is there a standard height a check valve should be installed and
wouldn't it make sense to install one on the backup pump?

This was the arrangement when we bought the house in March and I only
noticed this after the primary failed. Actually, the pump didn't fail,
the float switch did. $30 for a replacement.


it all depends on the size of the 'crock' as you call it. If the sump
is of sufficient size, then you can get away without a check. But
having said that, it is standard procedure to put a check on the pump
down low. (like screwed into the pump, then the discharge pipe
connnects to it.)

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On 11/20/2011 7:18 AM, Andy wrote:
On Nov 20, 9:10 am, "Joe wrote:
In the same crock I have two sump pumps on two separate breakers. The
primary pump has a check valve installed and it drains into a underground
pipe that runs to a sewer. The backup pump float is set a little higher and
turns on if the primary doesn't. One and a half inch pvc pipe that rises
about 8 ft and does a 90 degree turn before heading outside and draining
onto the lawn and it has no check valve.

So here are the questions...Is there a valid reason for not having a check
valve on the backup? I had a failure on the primary pump and it seemed half
the crock was refilled by the remnants in the pipe draining back after the
backup pump shut off.

Is there a standard height a check valve should be installed and wouldn't it
make sense to install one on the backup pump?

This was the arrangement when we bought the house in March and I only
noticed this after the primary failed. Actually, the pump didn't fail, the
float switch did. $30 for a replacement.

Andy comments:

I would think that if the water level get high enough to fill the
second
pump (as a result of the higher float switch), that a check valve
wouldn't
be necessary.....
` The check balve is merely to keep the pump primed, and if the pump
is flooded, a check shouldn't be necessary unless it clicks on before
the
water level is high enough...... HOWEVER, that being said, what is
the
nature of the second sump pump.?? Is it a submersible, or is it a
pump
that is mounted above the water level ?? That would be a problem....
and
I would use a check valve....

I will read with interest the advice given here by others. Lots
of good
info to be gleanded from this group...

Andy in Eureka, Texas P.E.


the check VALVE is NOT there to keep the pump primed in the case of a
sump pump.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On 11/20/2011 7:39 AM, Andy wrote:
On Nov 20, 9:25 am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
I thought the check valve is to keep water from coming back
in (backwards) via the discharge pipe. I think you may be
thinking about a foot valve, in a drilled well?

Andy answers:
A question of terminology..... Both do the same thing --- a valve
that
allows matter to flow in one direction.
In my experience, a "foot" valve is often mated with a screen and a
"check" valve is simply inserted in-line...
If JoeJ's pumps are both submersible, I can't see where either
could
be used..... Perhaps I am missing something, since the submersibles
I have used don't have a convenient place to add either one......

I'd be happy to get information on my error.....

Andy in Eureka, Texas PE






it is installed on the discharge side to prevent the contents of the
riser pipe from dumping back into the sump. And no, a foot valve is not
the same as a checkvalve on the discharge side. A foot valve is used on
the suction side and IS in fact there to keep the pump primed, in the
case of a well pump (or any other pump for that matter) that is above
the water line.


--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On 11/20/2011 7:43 AM, Joe J wrote:

"Andy" wrote in message
...
On Nov 20, 9:27 am, "
wrote:

How many sump pumps have you seen that are mounted
above the water level? Every single one I've ever seen
sits in the sump pump pit, in the water.

That would be a problem....


Andy replies:
None. But , based on the post, I wasn't sure the OP was referring
to a "sump pump", or a "pump that was used to pump out a sump".

People in different areas sometimes have different terminologies..

JoeJ replied that they were both submersible, hence, I can't see why
a check valve would be needed for either....

I agree with your post...but I can't see why you replied to "me"
rather
than Joe J...

Andy in Eureka, Texas PE

Still trying to stay on topic. Both are submersible, primary has a check
valve that prevents the water from draining back into the crock. Backup
has no check valve and has at least 12 feet of 1.5" PVC before it
reaches outside. When that pump turns off, the contents of that 1.5"
pipe drain back into the crock and almost refill it. Yes it is just a
backup and in theory only runs if the primary fails, but in this case
the primary did fail and it didn't seem very economical to have it
pumping the same water twice.
So, spend X dollars and install a check valve? I'll do it myself.


yes, $4 or $5 well spent especially if you have a small sump.


--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On 11/20/2011 8:36 AM, Colbyt wrote:
wrote in message
...
Andy comments:

Joe, I'm sorry, but I really don't understand.. If both pumps are
submersible, --- by that I mean the type that, when operational, is
partially submerged in the sump, I don't see the need for a check
valve in either.... As long as the float switches are above the pump
levels, the pump will be flooded.. and primed.... Water flowing back
down a discharge pipe will flow out to the ambient water level, which,
if the pump is still submerged, shouldn't matter.....

However, if your "primary" pump didn't work, you should get it
fixed.... As a suggestion, the problem may actually be in the
float switch (sold at Home Depot as a separate item for about $30
USD)..
and is easy to replace..... generally.... The float switch fails more
than the pump does, in my experience....... which may not be as
great on this issue as other posters..

I like the idea of a backup..... especially if a small flood will
cause you serious difficulty or loss... But I'd have both systems
working ..... That's just me, tho....And I really like the "separate
breaker" approach...

Andy in Eureka, Texas


Andy

The only purpose of a check valve on a submersible pump is to prevent the
backflow which can cause the pump to cycle repeatedly.

The water in the pipe refills the basin prematurely. The pump kicks on,
shuts off and the whole process repeats again. Over time this can cause
premature pump failure. I once watched one with a small basin pump the same
water every 2 minutes. I added a check valve that very day.

For Joe: Add a check valve. Be sure to read the instructions. You need to
drill a 1/4" hole in the pipe near where it connects to the pump to allow
the water between the pump and the valve to drain.



the 1/4" hole is a wives tale. Not necessary.


--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On 11/20/2011 9:05 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Would this hole be above the water line, or below?


it's a moot point. It's not necessary. But they're saying between the
pump and check. So it would invariably be below the water line if
someone insisted upon doing it.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On 11/20/2011 9:49 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 08:03:26 -0800 (PST), Andy
wrote:

Andy comments:

Joe, I'm sorry, but I really don't understand.. If both pumps are
submersible, --- by that I mean the type that, when operational, is
partially submerged in the sump, I don't see the need for a check
valve in either.... As long as the float switches are above the pump
levels, the pump will be flooded.. and primed.... Water flowing back
down a discharge pipe will flow out to the ambient water level, which,
if the pump is still submerged, shouldn't matter.....

I think you are right for the wrong reason. The two pumps discharge
to separate lines so no check valve is needed. If the pumps went to a
common line, the check valve would be needed to prevent backflow into
the other line and back to the crock.

it's necessary for the same reason it would be necessary if it was the
ONLY pump he had.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On 11/20/2011 8:23 AM, wrote:
On Nov 20, 11:06 am, Art wrote:
On 11/20/2011 10:43 AM, Joe J wrote:





wrote in message
...
On Nov 20, 9:27 am,
wrote:

How many sump pumps have you seen that are mounted
above the water level? Every single one I've ever seen
sits in the sump pump pit, in the water.

That would be a problem....

Andy replies:
None. But , based on the post, I wasn't sure the OP was referring
to a "sump pump", or a "pump that was used to pump out a sump".

People in different areas sometimes have different terminologies..

JoeJ replied that they were both submersible, hence, I can't see why
a check valve would be needed for either....

I agree with your post...but I can't see why you replied to "me"
rather
than Joe J...

Andy in Eureka, Texas PE

Still trying to stay on topic. Both are submersible, primary has a check
valve that prevents the water from draining back into the crock. Backup
has no check valve and has at least 12 feet of 1.5" PVC before it
reaches outside. When that pump turns off, the contents of that 1.5"
pipe drain back into the crock and almost refill it. Yes it is just a
backup and in theory only runs if the primary fails, but in this case
the primary did fail and it didn't seem very economical to have it
pumping the same water twice.
So, spend X dollars and install a check valve? I'll do it myself.

I've always had check valves on both pumps in my old house for some 37
years. Both pumps were submersible and one was battery operated. The
only problem I had was with the battery pump. Sometimes, the head of
water would keep the battery pump from actually pumping, even though it
was running. The instructions on the Basement Watchdog battery pump say
to drill a small hole in the pipe just above where it connects to the
pump. I did it, and it worked.

That's a good point. If Joe adds a check valve, he should
put a small hole in the pipe too. Without a check valve, as
water rises in the pit, it will naturally rise inside the discharge
line as well, pushing air slowly out the discharge line. With
a check valve, the air is blocked, so you could have the portion
of the discharge line from the check valve down to the pump
itself filled with air. When the pump starts, it's possible the
line will remain air-locked. With the tiny hole the discharge
line will have water in it to the same level as the pit.


bs. where does this alleged "air" come from?

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On 11/20/2011 7:23 AM, wrote:
On Nov 20, 10:10 am, "Joe wrote:
In the same crock I have two sump pumps on two separate breakers. The
primary pump has a check valve installed and it drains into a underground
pipe that runs to a sewer. The backup pump float is set a little higher and
turns on if the primary doesn't. One and a half inch pvc pipe that rises
about 8 ft and does a 90 degree turn before heading outside and draining
onto the lawn and it has no check valve.

So here are the questions...Is there a valid reason for not having a check
valve on the backup?

One reason I can think of is to save a few $$, because the
backup will rarely, if ever, be used. And the only downside
to not having a check valve is that some water will run back
in. For an installation where the pump only runs occasionally,
it's a backup, etc and not that much water runs back in, it's
not an issue.

Other reason would be if water that would be held in place
by a check valve is subject to freezing. Then it would be
relying on water being able to drain back to prevent freezing.


I had a failure on the primary pump and it seemed half
the crock was refilled by the remnants in the pipe draining back after the
backup pump shut off.

How much water runs back in is determined by how much
pipe there is that is left filled with water when the pump
shuts off. In your case it sounds like it's substantial amount.




Is there a standard height a check valve should be installed and wouldn't it
make sense to install one on the backup pump?

The closer it is to the pump the less water will flow back.
Height isn't an issue. Usually it's put above the sump pit
for convenience. If a lot of water flows back, then yes
it would make sense to put one in to keep the pump from
going on and off more frequently.



This was the arrangement when we bought the house in March and I only
noticed this after the primary failed. Actually, the pump didn't fail, the
float switch did. $30 for a replacement.


ACTUALLY, the are usually threaded and screwed directly into the pump.
Then the pvc attached to the checkvalve.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On 11/20/2011 7:10 AM, Joe J wrote:
In the same crock I have two sump pumps on two separate breakers. The
primary pump has a check valve installed and it drains into a
underground pipe that runs to a sewer. The backup pump float is set a
little higher and turns on if the primary doesn't. One and a half inch
pvc pipe that rises about 8 ft and does a 90 degree turn before heading
outside and draining onto the lawn and it has no check valve.

So here are the questions...Is there a valid reason for not having a
check valve on the backup? I had a failure on the primary pump and it
seemed half the crock was refilled by the remnants in the pipe draining
back after the backup pump shut off.

Is there a standard height a check valve should be installed and
wouldn't it make sense to install one on the backup pump?

This was the arrangement when we bought the house in March and I only
noticed this after the primary failed. Actually, the pump didn't fail,
the float switch did. $30 for a replacement.

here's what you are looking for:

http://www.farmandfleet.com/products....Tslw 7T1Cq0s


--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

"Steve Barker" wrote in message
...
On 11/20/2011 7:10 AM, Joe J wrote:
In the same crock I have two sump pumps on two separate breakers. The
primary pump has a check valve installed and it drains into a
underground pipe that runs to a sewer. The backup pump float is set a
little higher and turns on if the primary doesn't. One and a half inch
pvc pipe that rises about 8 ft and does a 90 degree turn before heading
outside and draining onto the lawn and it has no check valve.

So here are the questions...Is there a valid reason for not having a
check valve on the backup? I had a failure on the primary pump and it
seemed half the crock was refilled by the remnants in the pipe draining
back after the backup pump shut off.

Is there a standard height a check valve should be installed and
wouldn't it make sense to install one on the backup pump?

This was the arrangement when we bought the house in March and I only
noticed this after the primary failed. Actually, the pump didn't fail,
the float switch did. $30 for a replacement.

here's what you are looking for:

http://www.farmandfleet.com/products....Tslw 7T1Cq0s


--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

Exactly the type of valve I was talking about installing. $9 at Home Depot.
After sorting through all the responses, I think I'll just go ahead and cut
the pvc pipe on the backup and install one.

On Nov 20, 1:21*pm, Steve Barker wrote:

the 1/4" hole is a wives tale. *Not necessary.

--
Steve Barker



As Steve B stated, that 1/4" is unnecessary.
It's not like the internals of the pump will prevent that bit of water
between the pump and the check valve.
Drilling a hole in that location will allow a small amount of the
pumped water to "short circuit" and merely recycle in the sump,
wasting a bit of the pump's usable output.

General comment to group (not to Steve B):

I thought the "well" in which water collected was the "sump" and the
pump tasked with emptying the sump was the "sump pump"?

What is this "crock thing" being talked about?
I thought crocks were for sauerkraut, sourdough starter, pickles,
cheese, yogurt, etc and of course s...t.

"Steve Barker" wrote in message
...
On 11/20/2011 8:36 AM, Colbyt wrote:
wrote in message
...
Andy comments:

Joe, I'm sorry, but I really don't understand.. If both pumps are
submersible, --- by that I mean the type that, when operational, is
partially submerged in the sump, I don't see the need for a check
valve in either.... As long as the float switches are above the pump
levels, the pump will be flooded.. and primed.... Water flowing back
down a discharge pipe will flow out to the ambient water level, which,
if the pump is still submerged, shouldn't matter.....

However, if your "primary" pump didn't work, you should get it
fixed.... As a suggestion, the problem may actually be in the
float switch (sold at Home Depot as a separate item for about $30
USD)..
and is easy to replace..... generally.... The float switch fails more
than the pump does, in my experience....... which may not be as
great on this issue as other posters..

I like the idea of a backup..... especially if a small flood will
cause you serious difficulty or loss... But I'd have both systems
working ..... That's just me, tho....And I really like the "separate
breaker" approach...

Andy in Eureka, Texas


Andy

The only purpose of a check valve on a submersible pump is to prevent the
backflow which can cause the pump to cycle repeatedly.

The water in the pipe refills the basin prematurely. The pump kicks on,
shuts off and the whole process repeats again. Over time this can cause
premature pump failure. I once watched one with a small basin pump the
same
water every 2 minutes. I added a check valve that very day.

For Joe: Add a check valve. Be sure to read the instructions. You need
to
drill a 1/4" hole in the pipe near where it connects to the pump to allow
the water between the pump and the valve to drain.



the 1/4" hole is a wives tale. Not necessary.


--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

It may not be necessary. But one thing I always do the first time I install
something is RTFM. Or at least look at the pictures.

Both the pump and the valve maker recommend the hole. I never throw
anything anyway so I have the printed instructions somewhere.

The Ace website indicates that their pump have a built in vent hole so it
may not be necessary for their product. Older pumps may not have the built
in hole. If you don't know for sure the small hole hurts nothing.
http://www.waterace.com/pdf/R3S%20R3...s%20Manual.pdf


--
Colbyt
Please come visit http://www.househomerepair.com

I remember the purpose of the hole, is to let the water out
of the pipe between the sump and the check. So, if the hole
is below water, it seems like it wouldn't let air in, so the
pipe can drain.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Steve Barker" wrote in message
...
On 11/20/2011 9:05 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Would this hole be above the water line, or below?


it's a moot point. It's not necessary. But they're saying
between the
pump and check. So it would invariably be below the water
line if
someone insisted upon doing it.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email