Confess that I don't know a well from a hole in the ground, but since
I've been 1/2 owner of one for a couple of years I think I'd like to
begin to understand the thing. If you're having a particularly boring
day you're welcome to view pics:

http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/7t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/8t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/9t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/10t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/12t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/14t.jpg

I have no idea what any of that stuff is, other than the hose bibs. I
think my main questions at this point a

1. Does all this look reasonable and normal?

2. Do all well systems work more or less the same way, with a set of
standard components and sub-systems?

3. Does anyone know of a *good* book, video, or website that explains
wells well? I don't know enough to even ask many intelligent questions
yet, so I'm thinking such an intro would be helpful.

Smitty Two wrote:

Confess that I don't know a well from a hole in the ground, but since
I've been 1/2 owner of one for a couple of years I think I'd like to
begin to understand the thing. If you're having a particularly boring
day you're welcome to view pics:

http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/7t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/8t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/9t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/10t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/12t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/14t.jpg

I have no idea what any of that stuff is, other than the hose bibs. I
think my main questions at this point a

1. Does all this look reasonable and normal?

2. Do all well systems work more or less the same way, with a set of
standard components and sub-systems?

3. Does anyone know of a *good* book, video, or website that explains
wells well? I don't know enough to even ask many intelligent questions
yet, so I'm thinking such an intro would be helpful.

Ok, here are the basics:

You have a standard cased well with a submersible pump down hole. How
far down hole is anyone's guess since a submersible pump can be use in
both shallow and deep wells. The pump is what's known as a 3wire type
and connects to that control box at the top with a 4 wire cable (4th is
ground). The control box contains a starting capacitor and relay. The
fitting that connects from the control box is broken, and should be
repaired to both protect the pump wires as well as to prevent potential
contamination from getting into the well.

There is a check valve and a local hose bib connection by the well, and
then it is plumbed underground back to the house. At the house you have
the pressure switch which supplies power to the pump control box at the
well when the pump needs to run, and you have a large storage tank that
appears to be the older air charged variety. That tank will have some
variety of float valve / air intake setup to maintain a charge of air at
the top of the storage tank.

Everything you see on the other side of the tank is not part of the well
system, it is usage related. There appears to be a lawn sprinkler
control valve that is no longer connected, something that looks like it
could be a pressure limiter and/or back flow preventer, and a ball valve
that could be feeding most anything. You'll have to trace where those
pipes go to know much more about them.

Confess that I don't know a well from a hole in the ground, but since
I've been 1/2 owner of one for a couple of years I think I'd like to
begin to understand the thing. If you're having a particularly boring
day you're welcome to view pics:

http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/7t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/8t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/9t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/10t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/12t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/14t.jpg

I have no idea what any of that stuff is, other than the hose bibs. I
think my main questions at this point a

1. Does all this look reasonable and normal?



*No. There is a broken electrical conduit nipple for the pump controller at
the wellhead. The controller looks like it was made for indoors. Duct tape
is not an approved cover fastener. The wiring at the tank is for indoors,
but the tank looks as though it is outside. It looks as though you need an
electrician to clean this up.




2. Do all well systems work more or less the same way, with a set of
standard components and sub-systems?

3. Does anyone know of a *good* book, video, or website that explains
wells well? I don't know enough to even ask many intelligent questions
yet, so I'm thinking such an intro would be helpful.

On Mon, 18 Jul 2011 15:11:07 -0400, "John Grabowski"
wrote:

1. Does all this look reasonable and normal?



*No. There is a broken electrical conduit nipple for the pump controller at
the wellhead. The controller looks like it was made for indoors. Duct tape
is not an approved cover fastener. The wiring at the tank is for indoors,
but the tank looks as though it is outside. It looks as though you need an
electrician to clean this up.

The power box is sitting on rocks or blocks which be fixed.

Two cents :-/

On Jul 18, 3:11*pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:
Confess that I don't know a well from a hole in the ground, but since
I've been 1/2 owner of one for a couple of years I think I'd like to
begin to understand the thing. If you're having a particularly boring
day you're welcome to view pics:

http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/7t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/8t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/9t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/10t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/12t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/14t.jpg

I have no idea what any of that stuff is, other than the hose bibs. I
think my main questions at this point a

1. Does all this look reasonable and normal?

*No. *There is a broken electrical conduit nipple for the pump controller at
the wellhead. *The controller looks like it was made for indoors. *Duct tape
is not an approved cover fastener. *The wiring at the tank is for indoors,
but the tank looks as though it is outside. *It looks as though you need an
electrician to clean this up.




Agree with the above. This clearly never passed an inspection.




2. Do all well systems work more or less the same way, with a set of
standard components and sub-systems?

All wells don't work the same way. As Pete pointed out what you have
is a submersible type pump where the pump is located down the
well casing. It's connected to a tank which holds some reserve
amount
of water so the pump doesn't have to kick on with each draw of water.
That type of system is very common.




3. Does anyone know of a *good* book, video, or website that explains
wells well? I don't know enough to even a
sk many intelligent questions
yet, so I'm thinking such an intro would be helpful.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Unfortunately, no.

On Jul 18, 12:11*pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:
Confess that I don't know a well from a hole in the ground, but since
I've been 1/2 owner of one for a couple of years I think I'd like to
begin to understand the thing. If you're having a particularly boring
day you're welcome to view pics:

http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/7t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/8t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/9t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/10t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/12t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/14t.jpg

I have no idea what any of that stuff is, other than the hose bibs. I
think my main questions at this point a

1. Does all this look reasonable and normal?

*No. *There is a broken electrical conduit nipple for the pump controller at
the wellhead. *The controller looks like it was made for indoors. *Duct tape
is not an approved cover fastener. *The wiring at the tank is for indoors,
but the tank looks as though it is outside. *It looks as though you need an
electrician to clean this up.





2. Do all well systems work more or less the same way, with a set of
standard components and sub-systems?

3. Does anyone know of a *good* book, video, or website that explains
wells well? I don't know enough to even ask many intelligent questions
yet, so I'm thinking such an intro would be helpful.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Start with a plumber and get rid of all the excess fittings. I have
seen some messes in my time, but that takes the cake.

Harry K

On 7/18/2011 1:20 PM, Smitty Two wrote:
Confess that I don't know a well from a hole in the ground, but since
I've been 1/2 owner of one for a couple of years I think I'd like to
begin to understand the thing. If you're having a particularly boring
day you're welcome to view pics:

http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/7t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/8t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/9t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/10t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/12t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/14t.jpg

I have no idea what any of that stuff is, other than the hose bibs. I
think my main questions at this point a

1. Does all this look reasonable and normal?

2. Do all well systems work more or less the same way, with a set of
standard components and sub-systems?

3. Does anyone know of a *good* book, video, or website that explains
wells well? I don't know enough to even ask many intelligent questions
yet, so I'm thinking such an intro would be helpful.

Hard to tell what I'm looking at. As others have mentioned, you have a
broken electrical fitting, the well control box is not rain-tight
although the conduits feeding it are. There is another well control box
mounted on the wall on the right side of the pressure tank, also not
rain-tight, which is also true for the wiring to the pressure switch on
the left side of the tank. Overall, looks like a Rube

Uno wrote:

On 7/18/2011 10:20 AM, Smitty Two wrote:
Confess that I don't know a well from a hole in the ground, but since
I've been 1/2 owner of one for a couple of years I think I'd like to
begin to understand the thing. If you're having a particularly boring
day you're welcome to view pics:

http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/7t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/8t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/9t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/10t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/12t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/14t.jpg

I have no idea what any of that stuff is, other than the hose bibs. I
think my main questions at this point a

1. Does all this look reasonable and normal?

2. Do all well systems work more or less the same way, with a set of
standard components and sub-systems?

3. Does anyone know of a *good* book, video, or website that explains
wells well? I don't know enough to even ask many intelligent questions
yet, so I'm thinking such an intro would be helpful.

What region are you in?

Clearly somewhere that doesn't see freezing weather.

On 7/18/2011 10:20 AM, Smitty Two wrote:
Confess that I don't know a well from a hole in the ground, but since
I've been 1/2 owner of one for a couple of years I think I'd like to
begin to understand the thing. If you're having a particularly boring
day you're welcome to view pics:

http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/7t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/8t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/9t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/10t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/12t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/14t.jpg

I have no idea what any of that stuff is, other than the hose bibs. I
think my main questions at this point a

1. Does all this look reasonable and normal?

2. Do all well systems work more or less the same way, with a set of
standard components and sub-systems?

3. Does anyone know of a *good* book, video, or website that explains
wells well? I don't know enough to even ask many intelligent questions
yet, so I'm thinking such an intro would be helpful.


What region are you in?
--
Uno

In article ,
"Pete C." wrote:

Uno wrote:

On 7/18/2011 10:20 AM, Smitty Two wrote:
Confess that I don't know a well from a hole in the ground, but since
I've been 1/2 owner of one for a couple of years I think I'd like to
begin to understand the thing. If you're having a particularly boring
day you're welcome to view pics:

http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/7t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/8t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/9t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/10t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/12t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/14t.jpg

I have no idea what any of that stuff is, other than the hose bibs. I
think my main questions at this point a

1. Does all this look reasonable and normal?

2. Do all well systems work more or less the same way, with a set of
standard components and sub-systems?

3. Does anyone know of a *good* book, video, or website that explains
wells well? I don't know enough to even ask many intelligent questions
yet, so I'm thinking such an intro would be helpful.

What region are you in?

Clearly somewhere that doesn't see freezing weather.

The house is in California's central valley (San Joaquin Valley) where
it does dip below freezing at night during the winter.

In article
,
Harry K wrote:

Start with a plumber and get rid of all the excess fittings. I have
seen some messes in my time, but that takes the cake.

Are you talking specifically about the stuff to the right of the
pressure tank?

Smitty Two wrote:

In article ,
"Pete C." wrote:

Uno wrote:

On 7/18/2011 10:20 AM, Smitty Two wrote:
Confess that I don't know a well from a hole in the ground, but since
I've been 1/2 owner of one for a couple of years I think I'd like to
begin to understand the thing. If you're having a particularly boring
day you're welcome to view pics:

http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/7t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/8t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/9t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/10t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/12t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/14t.jpg

I have no idea what any of that stuff is, other than the hose bibs. I
think my main questions at this point a

1. Does all this look reasonable and normal?

2. Do all well systems work more or less the same way, with a set of
standard components and sub-systems?

3. Does anyone know of a *good* book, video, or website that explains
wells well? I don't know enough to even ask many intelligent questions
yet, so I'm thinking such an intro would be helpful.

What region are you in?

Clearly somewhere that doesn't see freezing weather.

The house is in California's central valley (San Joaquin Valley) where
it does dip below freezing at night during the winter.

Presumably it isn't dipping below freezing for long enough to freeze the
pipes, but that would make me a bit nervous. A bit of insulation and
perhaps some heat tape on a thermostat would make me sleep better.

In article ,
"John Grabowski" wrote:

Confess that I don't know a well from a hole in the ground, but since
I've been 1/2 owner of one for a couple of years I think I'd like to
begin to understand the thing. If you're having a particularly boring
day you're welcome to view pics:

http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/7t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/8t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/9t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/10t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/12t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/14t.jpg

I have no idea what any of that stuff is, other than the hose bibs. I
think my main questions at this point a

1. Does all this look reasonable and normal?



*No. There is a broken electrical conduit nipple for the pump controller at
the wellhead. The controller looks like it was made for indoors. Duct tape
is not an approved cover fastener. The wiring at the tank is for indoors,
but the tank looks as though it is outside. It looks as though you need an
electrician to clean this up.

The female threads in the well cover are chewed up, which is why the
controller is just hanging there. I believe the duct tape was
professionally installed to hold the unit in place, not to keep the
cover closed. But I don't suppose that's approved, either. Is this a DIY
repair? Can I just go to HD or an electrical supply house and get an
outdoor controller box? How would you address the chewed up threads? New
well cover? Something like a helicoil? Drill and tap in a new spot and
plug the old conduit hole?

In article
,
" wrote:

Agree with the above. This clearly never passed an inspection.

It passed a pre-purchase inspection, by a local well professional. In
fact the pump was replaced at the seller's expense based on that
inspection.

In article ,
"Pete C." wrote:

Ok, here are the basics:

You have a standard cased well with a submersible pump down hole. How
far down hole is anyone's guess since a submersible pump can be use in
both shallow and deep wells. The pump is what's known as a 3wire type
and connects to that control box at the top with a 4 wire cable (4th is
ground). The control box contains a starting capacitor and relay. The
fitting that connects from the control box is broken, and should be
repaired to both protect the pump wires as well as to prevent potential
contamination from getting into the well.

There is a check valve and a local hose bib connection by the well, and
then it is plumbed underground back to the house. At the house you have
the pressure switch which supplies power to the pump control box at the
well when the pump needs to run, and you have a large storage tank that
appears to be the older air charged variety. That tank will have some
variety of float valve / air intake setup to maintain a charge of air at
the top of the storage tank.

Everything you see on the other side of the tank is not part of the well
system, it is usage related. There appears to be a lawn sprinkler
control valve that is no longer connected, something that looks like it
could be a pressure limiter and/or back flow preventer, and a ball valve
that could be feeding most anything. You'll have to trace where those
pipes go to know much more about them.

Thanks, Pete, that's a terrific start. The pump was replaced 2 1/2 yrs.
ago as a condition of sale, and IIRC the well is about 2000 ft deep,
water level about 1200, and pump is at 1500 or so.

So the brass fitting in the horizontal run of nipples and unions is the
check valve, and the PVC pipe feeds the house, right? Is the pressure
switch at the house the little box in picture 10 with 2 conduits and a
piece of romex going to it?

When you say the stuff on the "other side of the tank" I assume then you
mean the stuff in picture 14?

On 7/18/2011 7:50 PM, Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,
wrote:

Agree with the above. This clearly never passed an inspection.

It passed a pre-purchase inspection, by a local well professional. In
fact the pump was replaced at the seller's expense based on that
inspection.

_WITH_ the broken connection???? Or was that done after the sale I'd
guess then?

While not the absolute neatest installation, it would appear to be
functional and that's all the the well guy would care about; he'll not
be a Code enforcement specialist (whatever Code is applicable, if any,
if is rural may be very little).

In a relatively dry area, (like here in SW KS) we've routinely used
boxes of the type and they're fine even after 40+ years so it doesn't
bug me much at all on that count.

I would/do, however, agree the broken mount should be repaired ASAP and
a much more rigid mount for that box be made than simply the conduit
connector. Guessing further, I'd wager a (very) small amount somebody
hit it w/ a mower at some time...

--

On Jul 18, 5:23*pm, Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,
*Harry K wrote:

Start with a plumber and get rid of all the excess fittings. *I have
seen some messes in my time, but that takes the cake.

Are you talking specifically about the stuff to the right of the
pressure tank?

Soem of that and that abortion on top of the well.

Harry K

In article , dpb wrote:

On 7/18/2011 7:50 PM, Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,
wrote:

Agree with the above. This clearly never passed an inspection.

It passed a pre-purchase inspection, by a local well professional. In
fact the pump was replaced at the seller's expense based on that
inspection.

_WITH_ the broken connection???? Or was that done after the sale I'd
guess then?

I don't remember what it looked like prior to the well guy replacing the
pump, but when we took possession it was the duct tape that was holding
the thing upright.


While not the absolute neatest installation, it would appear to be
functional and that's all the the well guy would care about; he'll not
be a Code enforcement specialist (whatever Code is applicable, if any,
if is rural may be very little).

In a relatively dry area, (like here in SW KS) we've routinely used
boxes of the type and they're fine even after 40+ years so it doesn't
bug me much at all on that count.

I would/do, however, agree the broken mount should be repaired ASAP and
a much more rigid mount for that box be made than simply the conduit
connector. Guessing further, I'd wager a (very) small amount somebody
hit it w/ a mower at some time...

--

I'll take care of fabricating some sort of decent mount for it. Is it OK
to drill and tap into the well cover for a bracket?

On 7/18/2011 7:59 PM, Smitty Two wrote:
In ews.com,
"Pete wrote:

Ok, here are the basics:

You have a standard cased well with a submersible pump down hole. How
far down hole is anyone's guess since a submersible pump can be use in
both shallow and deep wells. The pump is what's known as a 3wire type
and connects to that control box at the top with a 4 wire cable (4th is
ground). The control box contains a starting capacitor and relay. The
fitting that connects from the control box is broken, and should be
repaired to both protect the pump wires as well as to prevent potential
contamination from getting into the well.

There is a check valve and a local hose bib connection by the well, and
then it is plumbed underground back to the house. At the house you have
the pressure switch which supplies power to the pump control box at the
well when the pump needs to run, and you have a large storage tank that
appears to be the older air charged variety. That tank will have some
variety of float valve / air intake setup to maintain a charge of air at
the top of the storage tank.

Everything you see on the other side of the tank is not part of the well
system, it is usage related. There appears to be a lawn sprinkler
control valve that is no longer connected, something that looks like it
could be a pressure limiter and/or back flow preventer, and a ball valve
that could be feeding most anything. You'll have to trace where those
pipes go to know much more about them.

Thanks, Pete, that's a terrific start. The pump was replaced 2 1/2 yrs.
ago as a condition of sale, and IIRC the well is about 2000 ft deep,
water level about 1200, and pump is at 1500 or so.

So the brass fitting in the horizontal run of nipples and unions is the
check valve, and the PVC pipe feeds the house, right?

Not obvious to me it is a check valve. In any case there needs to be a
check valve at the bottom. Else you are refilling the pipe to the
surface when you start the pump. A check valve at the surface can't hold
a 1200 ft column of water. Whatever the brass fitting is it looks like
it has a schrader valve.

Is the pressure
switch at the house the little box in picture 10 with 2 conduits and a
piece of romex going to it?

Yes.

I agree with others and am not impressed with the electrical.

Don't think it was covered and it may be way to obvious...
The pressure tank has air in the top. When you pump water into the tank
it compresses the air. After the pump shuts off at the high pressure
setting the compressed air feeds water into the building. As the air
expands the pressure drops, until the pressure switch low cut in
pressure and the pump starts again. The tank air slowly dissolves into
the water and the amount of air slowly decreases making the pump cycle
more often. Pete briefly touched on controls to add air to the tank as
it is "used up". I don't see any in the pictures unless air is added
from a compressor through the schrader valve.

A better (and more expensive) way of making a tank is to have a bladder
between the water and air. The bladder moves up and down as the tank
pressurizes. The bladder keeps the air charge from dissolving into the
water. All the tanks like this that I have seen have a schrader valve at
the top to add and check the air charge.

--
bud--

On Jul 19, 12:49*am, Smitty Two wrote:
In article , dpb wrote:
On 7/18/2011 7:50 PM, Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,
* *wrote:

Agree with the above. *This clearly never passed an inspection.

It passed a pre-purchase inspection, by a local well professional. In
fact the pump was replaced at the seller's expense based on that
inspection.

_WITH_ the broken connection???? *Or was that done after the sale I'd
guess then?

I don't remember what it looked like prior to the well guy replacing the
pump, but when we took possession it was the duct tape that was holding
the thing upright.







While not the absolute neatest installation, it would appear to be
functional and that's all the the well guy would care about; he'll not
be a Code enforcement specialist (whatever Code is applicable, if any,
if is rural may be very little).

In a relatively dry area, (like here in SW KS) we've routinely used
boxes of the type and they're fine even after 40+ years so it doesn't
bug me much at all on that count.

I would/do, however, agree the broken mount should be repaired ASAP and
a much more rigid mount for that box be made than simply the conduit
connector. *Guessing further, I'd wager a (very) small amount somebody
hit it w/ a mower at some time...

--

I'll take care of fabricating some sort of decent mount for it. Is it OK
to drill and tap into the well cover for a bracket?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Given what you have to work with, I'd think a piece of steel fastened
to
the upright pipe coming out of the well head with a couple of
hose clamps might be your best option. They have square tubular
type stock at HD or Lowes that might give you the right distance
between the pipe and the electrical connection that the box needs
to mate up to. Then you could mount the box to that.

Kind of amazing that a well expert would give that whole thing
an OK on a pre-sale inspection. I don't expect them to be an
electrical guru, but at the very least, if I was giving an opinion
I'd say something along the lines of "Strongly suggesty you
have the electrical portion of this evalutated by an electrician
because it does not appear to comply with code...." Did a
home inspector not red flag the electrical? Or did he call it
out and they get off the hook based on the well guy?

Confess that I don't know a well from a hole in the ground, but since
I've been 1/2 owner of one for a couple of years I think I'd like to
begin to understand the thing. If you're having a particularly boring
day you're welcome to view pics:

http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/7t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/8t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/9t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/10t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/12t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/14t.jpg

I have no idea what any of that stuff is, other than the hose bibs. I
think my main questions at this point a

1. Does all this look reasonable and normal?



*No. There is a broken electrical conduit nipple for the pump controller
at
the wellhead. The controller looks like it was made for indoors. Duct
tape
is not an approved cover fastener. The wiring at the tank is for
indoors,
but the tank looks as though it is outside. It looks as though you need
an
electrician to clean this up.

The female threads in the well cover are chewed up, which is why the
controller is just hanging there. I believe the duct tape was
professionally installed to hold the unit in place, not to keep the
cover closed. But I don't suppose that's approved, either. Is this a DIY
repair? Can I just go to HD or an electrical supply house and get an
outdoor controller box? How would you address the chewed up threads? New
well cover? Something like a helicoil? Drill and tap in a new spot and
plug the old conduit hole?


*The hole in the wellhead may be able to be retapped. I would not mount the
new weatherproof controller right on top like that even if it is
"Professionally" duct taped together. I would install a short piece of wood
in the ground and mount the controller remotely or put it indoors. I'm not
sure where you can buy a new controller. You could call some electrical
supply companies.

The BX wiring on the pressure switch is not rated for outdoor use and the
armor is broken.

This installation may have passed inspection by a home inspector, but it
never passed inspection by the town electrical inspector. You may be able to
go down to town hall and find out if an electrical permit was ever issued
for the well installation.

If you have to ask, then I say no it is not a DIY repair.

On Jul 19, 6:59*am, "John Grabowski" wrote:
Confess that I don't know a well from a hole in the ground, but since
I've been 1/2 owner of one for a couple of years I think I'd like to
begin to understand the thing. If you're having a particularly boring
day you're welcome to view pics:

http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/7t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/8t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/9t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/10t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/12t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/14t.jpg

I have no idea what any of that stuff is, other than the hose bibs. I
think my main questions at this point a

1. Does all this look reasonable and normal?

*No. *There is a broken electrical conduit nipple for the pump controller
at
the wellhead. *The controller looks like it was made for indoors. *Duct
tape
is not an approved cover fastener. *The wiring at the tank is for
indoors,
but the tank looks as though it is outside. *It looks as though you need
an
electrician to clean this up.

The female threads in the well cover are chewed up, which is why the
controller is just hanging there. I believe the duct tape was
professionally installed to hold the unit in place, not to keep the
cover closed. But I don't suppose that's approved, either. Is this a DIY
repair? Can I just go to HD or an electrical supply house and get an
outdoor controller box? How would you address the chewed up threads? New
well cover? Something like a helicoil? Drill and tap in a new spot and
plug the old conduit hole?

*The hole in the wellhead may be able to be retapped. *I would not mount the
new weatherproof controller right on top like that even if it is
"Professionally" duct taped together. *I would install a short piece of wood
in the ground and mount the controller remotely or put it indoors. *

I was thinking of a mounting post too, but the problem then
becomes that the existing wires from the well head won't
be long enough, unless there is enough slack inside the
well. He could splice extensions on inside the well casing,
but that requires opening the well, which could be
another pain.


I'm not
sure where you can buy a new controller. *You could call some electrical
supply companies.

Plumbing supply or places that sell submersible pumps
online would have them. But he could probably put a new
piece of liquidtight or similar with fittings on the existing one.






The BX wiring on the pressure switch is not rated for outdoor use and the
armor is broken.

This installation may have passed inspection by a home inspector, but it
never passed inspection by the town electrical inspector. You may be able to
go down to town hall and find out if an electrical permit was ever issued
for the well installation.

If you have to ask, then I say no it is not a DIY repair.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On 7/18/2011 11:49 PM, Smitty Two wrote:
In , wrote:
....

_WITH_ the broken connection???? Or was that done after the sale I'd
guess then?

I don't remember what it looked like prior to the well guy replacing the
pump, but when we took possession it was the duct tape that was holding
the thing upright.

Now _THAT_ is truly amazing...
....

In a relatively dry area, (like here in SW KS) we've routinely used
boxes of the type and they're fine even after 40+ years so it doesn't
bug me much at all on that count.

I will add that almost universally add a small weather shield (a simple
3-sided box of two sides and a top) around these boxes to keep direct
rain off. There are at least five I can think of sitting here at the
'puter that have been in place from early/mid-60s to as early as mid-50s
that are all still in good shape. So, while it isn't Code, where wet
isn't all _that_ wet, the boxes aren't a serious real problem. (I'll
also note that in the wet areas of the barn, farrowing shed, around the
corrals that the extra level of rated enclosures is needed and are used
as well as sealed for spark containment in grain dust or other
potentially explosive dust environments so am not oblivious to the
possible issues.)

I would/do, however, agree the broken mount should be repaired ASAP and
a much more rigid mount for that box be made than simply the conduit
connector. Guessing further, I'd wager a (very) small amount somebody
hit it w/ a mower at some time...

--

I'll take care of fabricating some sort of decent mount for it. Is it OK
to drill and tap into the well cover for a bracket?

I'd say it would be ok for the repair of the conduit connection, sure,
but I'd suggest a much more solid mount for the box than that--sink a 2"
or larger pipe or a fence post or something similar really solid and
mount the box on it, leaving only the connection to the well head would
be my suggestion.

--

In article ,
bud-- wrote:

On 7/18/2011 7:59 PM, Smitty Two wrote:


So the brass fitting in the horizontal run of nipples and unions is the
check valve, and the PVC pipe feeds the house, right?

Not obvious to me it is a check valve. In any case there needs to be a
check valve at the bottom. Else you are refilling the pipe to the
surface when you start the pump. A check valve at the surface can't hold
a 1200 ft column of water. Whatever the brass fitting is it looks like
it has a schrader valve.

Is the pressure
switch at the house the little box in picture 10 with 2 conduits and a
piece of romex going to it?

Yes.

I agree with others and am not impressed with the electrical.

Don't think it was covered and it may be way to obvious...
The pressure tank has air in the top. When you pump water into the tank
it compresses the air. After the pump shuts off at the high pressure
setting the compressed air feeds water into the building. As the air
expands the pressure drops, until the pressure switch low cut in
pressure and the pump starts again. The tank air slowly dissolves into
the water and the amount of air slowly decreases making the pump cycle
more often. Pete briefly touched on controls to add air to the tank as
it is "used up". I don't see any in the pictures unless air is added
from a compressor through the schrader valve.

A better (and more expensive) way of making a tank is to have a bladder
between the water and air. The bladder moves up and down as the tank
pressurizes. The bladder keeps the air charge from dissolving into the
water. All the tanks like this that I have seen have a schrader valve at
the top to add and check the air charge.

Not "way too obvious" for me, and was planning to ask about this part of
the system, so thanks for this. So the pressure switch is monitoring air
pressure in the tank, and presumably has adjustable hi/lo settings to
define the hysteresis band, if I understand correctly. The gauge on the
side of the tank in picture 10 would be an air pressure gauge then? (I'm
300 miles away so can't go get a closer look at it right now)

Is it evident from pics that this particular tank is the non-bladder
type? Failing an automatic system involving a dedicated compressor, one
adds air periodically then? How much, how often, and based on what
symptoms?

bud-- wrote:

On 7/18/2011 7:59 PM, Smitty Two wrote:
In ews.com,
"Pete wrote:

Ok, here are the basics:

You have a standard cased well with a submersible pump down hole. How
far down hole is anyone's guess since a submersible pump can be use in
both shallow and deep wells. The pump is what's known as a 3wire type
and connects to that control box at the top with a 4 wire cable (4th is
ground). The control box contains a starting capacitor and relay. The
fitting that connects from the control box is broken, and should be
repaired to both protect the pump wires as well as to prevent potential
contamination from getting into the well.

There is a check valve and a local hose bib connection by the well, and
then it is plumbed underground back to the house. At the house you have
the pressure switch which supplies power to the pump control box at the
well when the pump needs to run, and you have a large storage tank that
appears to be the older air charged variety. That tank will have some
variety of float valve / air intake setup to maintain a charge of air at
the top of the storage tank.

Everything you see on the other side of the tank is not part of the well
system, it is usage related. There appears to be a lawn sprinkler
control valve that is no longer connected, something that looks like it
could be a pressure limiter and/or back flow preventer, and a ball valve
that could be feeding most anything. You'll have to trace where those
pipes go to know much more about them.

Thanks, Pete, that's a terrific start. The pump was replaced 2 1/2 yrs.
ago as a condition of sale, and IIRC the well is about 2000 ft deep,
water level about 1200, and pump is at 1500 or so.

So the brass fitting in the horizontal run of nipples and unions is the
check valve, and the PVC pipe feeds the house, right?

Not obvious to me it is a check valve. In any case there needs to be a
check valve at the bottom. Else you are refilling the pipe to the
surface when you start the pump. A check valve at the surface can't hold
a 1200 ft column of water. Whatever the brass fitting is it looks like
it has a schrader valve.

The arrow on it implies that it has a check valve function. It may have
additional functions. The submersible pump at the bottom should have
it's own check valve.


Is the pressure
switch at the house the little box in picture 10 with 2 conduits and a
piece of romex going to it?

Yes.

I agree with others and am not impressed with the electrical.

Yes, the whole thing setup is a bit hacked together. If it were my place
I'd spend a day ripping it apart and redoing it in a much neater
configuration.


Don't think it was covered and it may be way to obvious...
The pressure tank has air in the top. When you pump water into the tank
it compresses the air. After the pump shuts off at the high pressure
setting the compressed air feeds water into the building. As the air
expands the pressure drops, until the pressure switch low cut in
pressure and the pump starts again. The tank air slowly dissolves into
the water and the amount of air slowly decreases making the pump cycle
more often. Pete briefly touched on controls to add air to the tank as
it is "used up". I don't see any in the pictures unless air is added
from a compressor through the schrader valve.

I think the fitting where the pressure gauge is attached on the tank may
be the air control. I believe I have seen similar ones and they have a
float inside and whatnot.


A better (and more expensive) way of making a tank is to have a bladder
between the water and air. The bladder moves up and down as the tank
pressurizes. The bladder keeps the air charge from dissolving into the
water. All the tanks like this that I have seen have a schrader valve at
the top to add and check the air charge.

Pre-charged bladder type tanks are certainly more common these days.

John Grabowski wrote:

Confess that I don't know a well from a hole in the ground, but since
I've been 1/2 owner of one for a couple of years I think I'd like to
begin to understand the thing. If you're having a particularly boring
day you're welcome to view pics:

http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/7t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/8t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/9t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/10t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/12t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/14t.jpg

I have no idea what any of that stuff is, other than the hose bibs. I
think my main questions at this point a

1. Does all this look reasonable and normal?



*No. There is a broken electrical conduit nipple for the pump controller
at
the wellhead. The controller looks like it was made for indoors. Duct
tape
is not an approved cover fastener. The wiring at the tank is for
indoors,
but the tank looks as though it is outside. It looks as though you need
an
electrician to clean this up.

The female threads in the well cover are chewed up, which is why the
controller is just hanging there. I believe the duct tape was
professionally installed to hold the unit in place, not to keep the
cover closed. But I don't suppose that's approved, either. Is this a DIY
repair? Can I just go to HD or an electrical supply house and get an
outdoor controller box? How would you address the chewed up threads? New
well cover? Something like a helicoil? Drill and tap in a new spot and
plug the old conduit hole?

*The hole in the wellhead may be able to be retapped. I would not mount the
new weatherproof controller right on top like that even if it is
"Professionally" duct taped together. I would install a short piece of wood
in the ground and mount the controller remotely or put it indoors. I'm not
sure where you can buy a new controller. You could call some electrical
supply companies.

I would mount the controller on a short piece of unistrut and a base
plate anchored to the cement and I would build a small "doghouse"
enclosure to cover the whole well head. The broken rigid offset fitting
should be replaced with a section of flexible conduit as was used on the
other connection to the control box. I don't see any reason to replace
the control box unless it has internal damage. New controllers if needed
would be found at ant plumbing supply place selling the "3 wire" pumps
they control.


The BX wiring on the pressure switch is not rated for outdoor use and the
armor is broken.

Yep, I'm not sure the pressure switch itself is rated for outdoor use
either. I would think enclosing the whole mess in a service closet of
sorts would be the way to go. Make it a bit larger and store yard tools
in it as well.


This installation may have passed inspection by a home inspector, but it
never passed inspection by the town electrical inspector. You may be able to
go down to town hall and find out if an electrical permit was ever issued
for the well installation.

Never check on permits *after* you own the place, only before. After the
fact, just cleanup what is crap and go with it. No sense in opening up a
can of worms with some nazi inspector.


If you have to ask, then I say no it is not a DIY repair.

I'd agree. I would think it shouldn't be more than a couple hours work
and not a lot of materials expense to get it fixed up. If you provide a
reputable electrician with the pictures they should be able to provide
an accurate quote.

In article
,
" wrote:

Given what you have to work with, I'd think a piece of steel fastened
to
the upright pipe coming out of the well head with a couple of
hose clamps might be your best option. They have square tubular
type stock at HD or Lowes that might give you the right distance
between the pipe and the electrical connection that the box needs
to mate up to. Then you could mount the box to that.

Thanks, I can custom fabricate any sort of mounting bracket in the
machine shop, so that aspect isn't too daunting.

Kind of amazing that a well expert would give that whole thing
an OK on a pre-sale inspection. I don't expect them to be an
electrical guru, but at the very least, if I was giving an opinion
I'd say something along the lines of "Strongly suggesty you
have the electrical portion of this evalutated by an electrician
because it does not appear to comply with code...." Did a
home inspector not red flag the electrical? Or did he call it
out and they get off the hook based on the well guy?

The home inspector doesn't cover wells, so that inspection was left to
the well guy, whose only report was that the pump was weak. I don't
quite remember whether the guy who inspected the pump was the guy who
replaced the pump, but probably. This isn't my city, so everyone
involved were people recommended by our realtor, and in most cases I
never met them in person. There was an electrician there at one time to
repair one of the issues that the home inspector found.

The house was completely remodeled by the previous owner, who did a lot
of the work himself. The remodel was permitted, but I'm guessing no one
checked up on workmanship. None of the electrical boxes in the attic or
crawlspace had cover plates, for example. One of the bathroom sinks had
hot and cold supply lines reversed. The shower pan leaked and the whole
shower had to be rebuilt at the seller's expense.

The house was originally built in 1930 and presumably the well at the
same time. A casual observer would not notice that it is situated a few
hundred yards outside the city limit, which might have contributed to a
lack of official inspection after the remodel.

dpb wrote:

On 7/18/2011 11:49 PM, Smitty Two wrote:
In , wrote:
...

_WITH_ the broken connection???? Or was that done after the sale I'd
guess then?

I don't remember what it looked like prior to the well guy replacing the
pump, but when we took possession it was the duct tape that was holding
the thing upright.

Now _THAT_ is truly amazing...
...

In a relatively dry area, (like here in SW KS) we've routinely used
boxes of the type and they're fine even after 40+ years so it doesn't
bug me much at all on that count.

I will add that almost universally add a small weather shield (a simple
3-sided box of two sides and a top) around these boxes to keep direct
rain off. There are at least five I can think of sitting here at the
'puter that have been in place from early/mid-60s to as early as mid-50s
that are all still in good shape. So, while it isn't Code, where wet
isn't all _that_ wet, the boxes aren't a serious real problem. (I'll
also note that in the wet areas of the barn, farrowing shed, around the
corrals that the extra level of rated enclosures is needed and are used
as well as sealed for spark containment in grain dust or other
potentially explosive dust environments so am not oblivious to the
possible issues.)

I recommend a little "doghouse" for the well head as well.


I would/do, however, agree the broken mount should be repaired ASAP and
a much more rigid mount for that box be made than simply the conduit
connector. Guessing further, I'd wager a (very) small amount somebody
hit it w/ a mower at some time...

--

I'll take care of fabricating some sort of decent mount for it. Is it OK
to drill and tap into the well cover for a bracket?

I'd say it would be ok for the repair of the conduit connection, sure,
but I'd suggest a much more solid mount for the box than that--sink a 2"
or larger pipe or a fence post or something similar really solid and
mount the box on it, leaving only the connection to the well head would
be my suggestion.

My preference would be a standard Unistrut base plate anchored to the
concrete pad around the well head, with a foot or so of Unistrut
sticking up to mount the control box to. You could also strap a piece of
Unistrut to the well casing with a couple large stainless hose clamps.
The rigid offset connection between the control box and the well head
needs to be replaced with a section of flexible conduit like the other
connection to the control box.

On Jul 19, 10:12*am, Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,





*bud-- wrote:
On 7/18/2011 7:59 PM, Smitty Two wrote:

So the brass fitting in the horizontal run of nipples and unions is the
check valve, and the PVC pipe feeds the house, right?

Not obvious to me it is a check valve. In any case there needs to be a
check valve at the bottom. Else you are refilling the pipe to the
surface when you start the pump. A check valve at the surface can't hold
a 1200 ft column of water. Whatever the brass fitting is it looks like
it has a schrader valve.

Is the pressure
switch at the house the little box in picture 10 with 2 conduits and a
piece of romex going to it?

Yes.

I agree with others and am not impressed with the electrical.

Don't think it was covered and it may be way to obvious...
The pressure tank has air in the top. When you pump water into the tank
it compresses the air. After the pump shuts off at the high pressure
setting the compressed air feeds water into the building. As the air
expands the pressure drops, until the pressure switch low cut in
pressure and the pump starts again. The tank air slowly dissolves into
the water and the amount of air slowly decreases making the pump cycle
more often. Pete briefly touched on controls to add air to the tank as
it is "used up". I don't see any in the pictures unless air is added
from a compressor through the schrader valve.

A better (and more expensive) way of making a tank is to have a bladder
between the water and air. The bladder moves up and down as the tank
pressurizes. The bladder keeps the air charge from dissolving into the
water. All the tanks like this that I have seen have a schrader valve at
the top to add and check the air charge.

Not "way too obvious" for me, and was planning to ask about this part of
the system, so thanks for this. So the pressure switch is monitoring air
pressure in the tank, and presumably has adjustable hi/lo settings to
define the hysteresis band, if I understand correctly. The gauge on the
side of the tank in picture 10 would be an air pressure gauge then? (I'm
300 miles away so can't go get a closer look at it right now)

It's a water pressure gauge. The pressure of the water and air
are equal.






Is it evident from pics that this particular tank is the non-bladder
type?

Can't tell from the pics. The bladder type tanks have a shrader
valve on the top that you use to charge the bladder. If yours has
it, then it's that type. I would expect that it is as that is what is
normally used on a submersible settup.



Failing an automatic system involving a dedicated compressor, one
adds air periodically then? How much, how often, and based on what
symptoms?- Hide quoted text -


All the non-bladder type tanks I've seen, ie the old style, had an
automatic means to self-regulate the air. But the ones that
worked that way were all on systems that had a pump right
at the tank, not submersible. Essentially there is some type
of gizmo that goes into the tank at the mid-position, where
your gauge is. That gizmo detects the air/water level, keeps it at
that point in the tank. If the water gets higher, the gizmo,
which is connected to the suction line, lets some air in
during a pump cycle.

If you don't have that kind of system to re-introduce air,
then eventually the tank will have too much water, not
enough air, leading to short pump cycles. On you settup
if it doesn't have a bladder, I don't know of any way to
get air into the tank except as you say, via a compressor.

On Jul 19, 7:12*am, Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,





*bud-- wrote:
On 7/18/2011 7:59 PM, Smitty Two wrote:

So the brass fitting in the horizontal run of nipples and unions is the
check valve, and the PVC pipe feeds the house, right?

Not obvious to me it is a check valve. In any case there needs to be a
check valve at the bottom. Else you are refilling the pipe to the
surface when you start the pump. A check valve at the surface can't hold
a 1200 ft column of water. Whatever the brass fitting is it looks like
it has a schrader valve.

Is the pressure
switch at the house the little box in picture 10 with 2 conduits and a
piece of romex going to it?

Yes.

I agree with others and am not impressed with the electrical.

Don't think it was covered and it may be way to obvious...
The pressure tank has air in the top. When you pump water into the tank
it compresses the air. After the pump shuts off at the high pressure
setting the compressed air feeds water into the building. As the air
expands the pressure drops, until the pressure switch low cut in
pressure and the pump starts again. The tank air slowly dissolves into
the water and the amount of air slowly decreases making the pump cycle
more often. Pete briefly touched on controls to add air to the tank as
it is "used up". I don't see any in the pictures unless air is added
from a compressor through the schrader valve.

A better (and more expensive) way of making a tank is to have a bladder
between the water and air. The bladder moves up and down as the tank
pressurizes. The bladder keeps the air charge from dissolving into the
water. All the tanks like this that I have seen have a schrader valve at
the top to add and check the air charge.

Not "way too obvious" for me, and was planning to ask about this part of
the system, so thanks for this. So the pressure switch is monitoring air
pressure in the tank, and presumably has adjustable hi/lo settings to
define the hysteresis band, if I understand correctly. The gauge on the
side of the tank in picture 10 would be an air pressure gauge then? (I'm
300 miles away so can't go get a closer look at it right now)

Is it evident from pics that this particular tank is the non-bladder
type? Failing an automatic system involving a dedicated compressor, one
adds air periodically then? How much, how often, and based on what
symptoms?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Not quite: the pressure guage measures system pressure, i.e., what
is coming out of the tank outlet.

The air bubble is known as the "pre-charge" and set normally to 2psi
below the cut-in pressure setting. It is set with the pump turned off
and the tank drained (as far as it can be) by opening a spigot or
faucet at a low point in the system.

The cut-in/out pressure is adjusted by pulling the cover off the
pressure switch. Usualy has two screws. Tall one adjusts both cut-in/
out at the same time. Short one adjussts the spread between them.
That is usually 20 psi. Normal residential settings a

20-40 - rare as the system pressure at cut-out is not enough to do a
decent job of showers or sprinkler heads.

30-50 - common but again a bit weak for a good 'needle shower'.

40-60 - normal and is the max recommended for residential use -
pressres above that cause unneeded wear/stress on fittings.

Of course pressure at the switch has to consider switch and useage
location. Thus a switchk at the bottom of a hill and house on top
needs more pressure due to the elevation distance. Pressure allowance
is .43 or .46 psi per foot rise. (I forget which is correct, too lazy
to look it up). Pipe distance from switch to point of use will also
cause some pressure loss as well.

To add a bit more confusion. The pressure guage and switch don't even
need to be at the tank, they can be anywhere in the system. Normally
they are at the tank and the tank is "normally" at the useage
elevation. Again they don't have to be.

Harry K

On 7/19/2011 9:43 AM, Pete C. wrote:
....

My preference would be a standard Unistrut base plate anchored to the
concrete pad around the well head, with a foot or so of Unistrut
sticking up to mount the control box to....

I'd forgotten there was a pad around it...that'd work, surely. (No pad
at wellhead here; don't think of that...the field control box is on the
power pole some distance away w/ underground cable. Owing to this being
a second well, the pressure tank is far removed in the old wellhouse
where the pressure switch is mounted).

Other than this well is quite deep compared to what am used to here
(150-200 ft, generally), is basic system albeit a little klunky in
execution.

But, if he has water, the rest is really simply aesthetics other than
the likelihood of the broken connector eventually leading to a wiring
failure if not fixed (which clearly he's intending to do sooner rather
than not)...

--

On Jul 19, 7:12*am, Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,





*bud-- wrote:
On 7/18/2011 7:59 PM, Smitty Two wrote:

So the brass fitting in the horizontal run of nipples and unions is the
check valve, and the PVC pipe feeds the house, right?

Not obvious to me it is a check valve. In any case there needs to be a
check valve at the bottom. Else you are refilling the pipe to the
surface when you start the pump. A check valve at the surface can't hold
a 1200 ft column of water. Whatever the brass fitting is it looks like
it has a schrader valve.

Is the pressure
switch at the house the little box in picture 10 with 2 conduits and a
piece of romex going to it?

Yes.

I agree with others and am not impressed with the electrical.

Don't think it was covered and it may be way to obvious...
The pressure tank has air in the top. When you pump water into the tank
it compresses the air. After the pump shuts off at the high pressure
setting the compressed air feeds water into the building. As the air
expands the pressure drops, until the pressure switch low cut in
pressure and the pump starts again. The tank air slowly dissolves into
the water and the amount of air slowly decreases making the pump cycle
more often. Pete briefly touched on controls to add air to the tank as
it is "used up". I don't see any in the pictures unless air is added
from a compressor through the schrader valve.

A better (and more expensive) way of making a tank is to have a bladder
between the water and air. The bladder moves up and down as the tank
pressurizes. The bladder keeps the air charge from dissolving into the
water. All the tanks like this that I have seen have a schrader valve at
the top to add and check the air charge.

Not "way too obvious" for me, and was planning to ask about this part of
the system, so thanks for this. So the pressure switch is monitoring air
pressure in the tank, and presumably has adjustable hi/lo settings to
define the hysteresis band, if I understand correctly. The gauge on the
side of the tank in picture 10 would be an air pressure gauge then? (I'm
300 miles away so can't go get a closer look at it right now)

Is it evident from pics that this particular tank is the non-bladder
type? Failing an automatic system involving a dedicated compressor, one
adds air periodically then? How much, how often, and based on what
symptoms?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Forgot about addign air. In a non-bladder tank, the air bubble will
gradually be absorbed into the water adn thus decrease the 'pre-
charge' pressure over time (note that it has no effect on _system_
pressure). If the float or 'snifter' valve fails, you have to add air
manually. How often? 6 months to a year at a guess. When needed?
when the pump cycle begins to get too short. Known as "short-
cycling". As teh air bubble decreases the run time of the pump to
bring the system pressure up gets shorter. Left alone you get 'short-
cycling' On, few seconds, off. Destroys a pump in short order.

"snifter valve" injects a small shot of air with each pump start. I
know what they do but really don't understand how they operate.

The nuisance of draining and adding air soon becomes bad enough that
one replaces the snifter or float valve ...or throws out the antique
tank and replaces it with a bladder type.

Harry K

Smitty Two wrote:

In article ,
bud-- wrote:

On 7/18/2011 7:59 PM, Smitty Two wrote:


So the brass fitting in the horizontal run of nipples and unions is the
check valve, and the PVC pipe feeds the house, right?

Not obvious to me it is a check valve. In any case there needs to be a
check valve at the bottom. Else you are refilling the pipe to the
surface when you start the pump. A check valve at the surface can't hold
a 1200 ft column of water. Whatever the brass fitting is it looks like
it has a schrader valve.

Is the pressure
switch at the house the little box in picture 10 with 2 conduits and a
piece of romex going to it?

Yes.

I agree with others and am not impressed with the electrical.

Don't think it was covered and it may be way to obvious...
The pressure tank has air in the top. When you pump water into the tank
it compresses the air. After the pump shuts off at the high pressure
setting the compressed air feeds water into the building. As the air
expands the pressure drops, until the pressure switch low cut in
pressure and the pump starts again. The tank air slowly dissolves into
the water and the amount of air slowly decreases making the pump cycle
more often. Pete briefly touched on controls to add air to the tank as
it is "used up". I don't see any in the pictures unless air is added
from a compressor through the schrader valve.

A better (and more expensive) way of making a tank is to have a bladder
between the water and air. The bladder moves up and down as the tank
pressurizes. The bladder keeps the air charge from dissolving into the
water. All the tanks like this that I have seen have a schrader valve at
the top to add and check the air charge.

Not "way too obvious" for me, and was planning to ask about this part of
the system, so thanks for this. So the pressure switch is monitoring air
pressure in the tank, and presumably has adjustable hi/lo settings to
define the hysteresis band, if I understand correctly. The gauge on the
side of the tank in picture 10 would be an air pressure gauge then? (I'm
300 miles away so can't go get a closer look at it right now)

The pressure switch monitors water pressure. The air charge at the top
of the tank provides something for the water to compress and provides
the pressure to force the water out of the tank when you open the
faucet. When the water pressure drops below the setpoint of the pressure
switch it turns on the pump to fill the tank and thus compress the air
at the top again. As noted, there is hysteresis and the pressure switch
shuts off the pump once the pressure is up above the hysteresis. The
amount of water between the two points is the drawdown or the useable
capacity of the tank.


Is it evident from pics that this particular tank is the non-bladder
type? Failing an automatic system involving a dedicated compressor, one
adds air periodically then? How much, how often, and based on what
symptoms?

As I noted there are air volume controls installed on this type of tank,
there is no compressor involved. I believe there are a few types, one of
which may be part of your pressure gauge assembly on the side of the
tank. If it's working, leave it alone, when the tank springs a leak
replace it with the more modern bladder type tank, the newest of which
have replaceable bladders.

In article
,
Smitty Two wrote:

Confess that I don't know a well from a hole in the ground, but since
I've been 1/2 owner of one for a couple of years I think I'd like to
begin to understand the thing. If you're having a particularly boring
day you're welcome to view pics:

http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/7t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/8t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/9t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/10t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/12t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/14t.jpg

I have no idea what any of that stuff is, other than the hose bibs. I
think my main questions at this point a

1. Does all this look reasonable and normal?

2. Do all well systems work more or less the same way, with a set of
standard components and sub-systems?

3. Does anyone know of a *good* book, video, or website that explains
wells well? I don't know enough to even ask many intelligent questions
yet, so I'm thinking such an intro would be helpful.

Further to this, I'm thinking that there couldn't be 1500 ft. of pipe
and a pump just hanging off the bottom of the well head cover. How would
I remove the cover to rework the electrical connections? I see the union
topside, but what sort of cover pass-through arrangement is there for
the pipe?

Smitty Two wrote:

Further to this, I'm thinking that there couldn't be 1500 ft. of pipe
and a pump just hanging off the bottom of the well head cover. How would
I remove the cover to rework the electrical connections? I see the union
topside, but what sort of cover pass-through arrangement is there for
the pipe?

First off, you obviously live in an area where freezing isn't a concern.

You don't want to start mucking around without some basic understanding of
what's going on there, so asking questions is good. Working with a local well
guy would be far better.

The well pump is dangling, but not from the cover. There's usually a pin/hook
inside the well casing from which a chain is hung. If your well is really 1500
feet deep, it will likely mean using a which - I wouldn't want to raise or lower
that much pipe by hand and if you slip you have a real problem.

There shouldn't be any wire splices inside the well. It should be one continuous
power line to the pump. Furthermore, opening the cover means you need to
sanitize the well before you close it up, so it's not something to do on a whim.

In general, I'd be a little concerned about the overall workmanship. It isn't
customary to have the pump controllers and wiring just kind of hanging loose or
dangling around the well. The water lines should be below the frost line all the
way to the house and even if there's no danger of freezing, they should be
buried enough that they won't get damaged mechanically.

At a minimum, all the electrical stuff should be in a weather proof box or pump
house.

"Robert Neville" wrote in message
...
Smitty Two wrote:

Further to this, I'm thinking that there couldn't be 1500 ft. of pipe
and a pump just hanging off the bottom of the well head cover. How would
I remove the cover to rework the electrical connections? I see the union
topside, but what sort of cover pass-through arrangement is there for
the pipe?

First off, you obviously live in an area where freezing isn't a concern.


You don't want to start mucking around without some basic understanding of
what's going on there, so asking questions is good. Working with a local
well
guy would be far better.

The well pump is dangling, but not from the cover. There's usually a
pin/hook
inside the well casing from which a chain is hung. If your well is really
1500
feet deep, it will likely mean using a which - I wouldn't want to raise or
lower
that much pipe by hand and if you slip you have a real problem.

There shouldn't be any wire splices inside the well. It should be one
continuous
power line to the pump. Furthermore, opening the cover means you need to
sanitize the well before you close it up, so it's not something to do on a
whim.

In general, I'd be a little concerned about the overall workmanship. It
isn't
customary to have the pump controllers and wiring just kind of hanging
loose or
dangling around the well. The water lines should be below the frost line
all the
way to the house and even if there's no danger of freezing, they should be
buried enough that they won't get damaged mechanically.

At a minimum, all the electrical stuff should be in a weather proof box or
pump
house.

For very deep wells, the actual pump has to be at the bottom of the well.
If it is an electric pump, it will be multistage centrifugal, the number of
stages depending on the pressure required.
And it might be dangling from the rigid metal pipe or it may have a separate
wire rope and flexible plastic pipe.
It may need special equipment to extract the pump from thre bottomof the
well by jacking up the pipes and unscrewing them.
There are a couple of patent sytems where the pump can be extracted by
pulling out with a vehicle , they usually have the pump on a cable with a
flexible pipe. The cable is run over a temporary roller arrangement erected
at the wellhead.
There are systems where the pump is on the surface, working an injector
down the bottom of the well.

As I don't see a pump, I assume it's down the bottom of the well and it
appears to be rigid pipe. This is the traditional way of doing it. You
appear to have a pressure vessel/store. This has a resilient cushion of
trapped air. When water is drawn off, the pressure falls in here to a point
where the pump is restarted to fill it up again/restore pressure..

There looks to be several cables going down the well. The big one will be
power to the pump. The smaller one is probably a sensor so the pump can't
start if there is no water or the well is pumped dry. There will be a box
of tricks associated with this.
The pump must never be run dry, it relies on water for cooling the motor
and lubrication.
It must never be run with the outlet valve shut,the water in the pump may
eventually boil & the pump motor overheat.

The plug in the tee at the well head (vertically orientated) is intended to
be removed and the extractor hoist screwed in there. A derrick is rigged
over the well & the pipes hoisted out. As the next joint appears the pipe
is clamped and unscrewed. The hoist is connected to the next pipe , hoisted
and so on untill the pump appears.


Quite a bit of stuff on youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlCICftF870
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSDoDehW-hU&NR=1


There is one somewhere shows extracting a pump but I can't seem to find it.

In article ,
wrote:



You better fix that broken off electrical box connection. Not only is
this an electrical hazzard and a means to lose your water, but also
bugs, rain, and dirt is getting into your well.

You dont need to pull the pipes or remove the well cap to fix this.
shut off the power, open that electrical box, label where all the
wires go, and remove the wires from the screws. DO NOT LET THE WIRES
FALL INTO THE WELL COVER. You'll have to remove the other *feed*
wires and cable (housing) too. Then replace that short piece that
connects the box to the cap. I'd use solid galvanized steel pipe, not
that pot metal thing you have now. Put it all back together and
you're done.

Take photos of the inside of the box before you remove the wires, just
in case you're labels fall off the wires (it can happen).

Several respondents advocated redoing the box when I first brought this
up, and I recognize the importance of it. One issue is that the threads
in the well head cover are stripped out. So I was hoping to be able to
remove that cover, plug that hole, and drill and tap for a new hole for
the wires. That's why I'm inquiring now as to how the pipe interfaces
with the cover.

For the time being I've just used a couple of stout wire ties to keep
the thing together so that dirt won't fall in the well and the wires
won't be chafed.

wrote the following:
On Tue, 02 Aug 2011 17:41:30 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:


In article
,
Smitty Two wrote:


Confess that I don't know a well from a hole in the ground, but since
I've been 1/2 owner of one for a couple of years I think I'd like to
begin to understand the thing. If you're having a particularly boring
day you're welcome to view pics:

http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/7t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/8t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/9t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/10t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/12t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/14t.jpg

I have no idea what any of that stuff is, other than the hose bibs. I
think my main questions at this point a

1. Does all this look reasonable and normal?

2. Do all well systems work more or less the same way, with a set of
standard components and sub-systems?

3. Does anyone know of a *good* book, video, or website that explains
wells well? I don't know enough to even ask many intelligent questions
yet, so I'm thinking such an intro would be helpful.

Further to this, I'm thinking that there couldn't be 1500 ft. of pipe
and a pump just hanging off the bottom of the well head cover. How would
I remove the cover to rework the electrical connections? I see the union
topside, but what sort of cover pass-through arrangement is there for
the pipe?


You better fix that broken off electrical box connection. Not only is
this an electrical hazzard and a means to lose your water, but also
bugs, rain, and dirt is getting into your well.



Isn't the rock a good enough support? :-)

You dont need to pull the pipes or remove the well cap to fix this.
shut off the power, open that electrical box, label where all the
wires go, and remove the wires from the screws. DO NOT LET THE WIRES
FALL INTO THE WELL COVER. You'll have to remove the other *feed*
wires and cable (housing) too. Then replace that short piece that
connects the box to the cap. I'd use solid galvanized steel pipe, not
that pot metal thing you have now. Put it all back together and
you're done.

Take photos of the inside of the box before you remove the wires, just
in case you're labels fall off the wires (it can happen).




--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

willshak wrote the following:
wrote the following:
On Tue, 02 Aug 2011 17:41:30 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:


In article
,
Smitty Two wrote:


Confess that I don't know a well from a hole in the ground, but
since I've been 1/2 owner of one for a couple of years I think I'd
like to begin to understand the thing. If you're having a
particularly boring day you're welcome to view pics:

http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/7t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/8t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/9t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/10t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/12t.jpg
http://members.cox.net/prestwich/well/14t.jpg

I have no idea what any of that stuff is, other than the hose bibs.
I think my main questions at this point a

1. Does all this look reasonable and normal?

2. Do all well systems work more or less the same way, with a set
of standard components and sub-systems?

3. Does anyone know of a *good* book, video, or website that
explains wells well? I don't know enough to even ask many
intelligent questions yet, so I'm thinking such an intro would be
helpful.

Further to this, I'm thinking that there couldn't be 1500 ft. of
pipe and a pump just hanging off the bottom of the well head cover.
How would I remove the cover to rework the electrical connections? I
see the union topside, but what sort of cover pass-through
arrangement is there for the pipe?


You better fix that broken off electrical box connection. Not only is
this an electrical hazzard and a means to lose your water, but also
bugs, rain, and dirt is getting into your well.


Isn't the rock a good enough support? :-)

My submersible well head
Note the simplicity.
Note my attempt at camouflage (but too green)
Note my failure to cut what's left of the unfertilized grass around the
head.
http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/3247/dscn0373t.jpg



--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

willshak wrote:

My submersible well head
Note the simplicity.
Note my attempt at camouflage (but too green)
Note my failure to cut what's left of the unfertilized grass around the
head.
http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/3247/dscn0373t.jpg

Code in many locations now requires a concrete apron, usually around 3'x3'
surrounding the well head.