Andy comments:

On a similar thread , there has been a difference of opinion on
whether a solar PV array which powers an entire house is a
reasonable thing to do...

Since it seems to have degenerated into some personal
attacks, I'd like to propose a new direction for those who are
considering this move :

Go and ask a LOCAL realtor, several if possible, what the increase
in the value on their house, on the market today, will be if they
install
a 50K solar PV array . ( This number is from another poster, who
posted that an array would cost this, before federal subsidies and
state rebates, which could amount to 50% in the US in some areas )

If it is like a swimming pool in Dallas, where a 25K investment
would
only add a few thousand to the selling price of the property if put on
the
market, OR, exclude many prospective buyers from consideration, due
to the maintenance/operational/repair/replacement costs that many
want to avoid........---- they might not want that overhead.....

Like I have published, MY electril bill is about 1500 USD per year
for a
3000 sq ft house south of Dallas, and I would be reluctant to shell
out
50K USD to have the roof coated, in ONE direction only , with a PV
array...

SECONDLY,,,,, check with your homeowner insurance agent.... Since
it
cost much more to install/re-install a PV array than it does to re-
shingle a
roof....... will the insurance pay for that additional cost if a
windstorm/hailstorm
requires replacement... Keep in mind that to re-shingle the roof and
fix the leaks (typically 10 yrs, regardless of 15 yr or 30yr shingles,
cost
MUCH MUCH less than the PV installation), it is typical that the PV
installation
would have to be removed, the roof stripped and re-shingled, and the
PV
installation done over again.......Perhaps the homeowner insurance
will
cover it, but, since it may double or triple the cost, ... you
better check...
In Texas, this is a most probable thing to happen.... In Europe or
the UK or Maine, maybe not so likely... Just consider it for your own
situation.

The green wannabee needs to be aware of all the probable costs
involved before making the commitment, rather than reading Mother
Earth News , and charging off in the abyss without the proper
facts......


Finally, be aware that since 50% of US taxpayers pay NO income tax
at
all, the big federal tax break may not apply, especially if the
'STANDARD
DEDUCTION" is more than the "PV cost"......And, they should
investigate
the rebates and tax abatements of their particular state and town,
since
they vary all over the map, ... from enthusiastic encouragement to
absolute
prohibition.... Good luck with all that....The info is available on
the internet...

I hope that any additions to this thread will try to keep a civil
posture on
their replies, so that the novice greenie can make some informed
decisions.

Andy in Eureka, Texas , retired electrical engineer

On May 18, 11:27*am, Andy wrote:
Andy comments:

* * *On a similar thread , there has been a difference of opinion on
whether a solar PV array which powers an entire house is a
reasonable thing to do...

* * *Since it seems to have degenerated into some personal
attacks, I'd like to propose a new direction for those who are
considering this move :

* Go and ask a LOCAL realtor, several if possible, *what the increase
in the value on their house, on the market today, will be if they
install
a 50K solar PV array . * ( This number is from another poster, who
posted that an array would cost this, before federal subsidies and
state rebates, which could amount to 50% in the US in some areas )

* *If it is like a swimming pool in Dallas, where a 25K investment
would
only add a few thousand to the selling price of the property if put on
the
market, OR, exclude many prospective buyers from consideration, due
to the maintenance/operational/repair/replacement costs that many
want to avoid........---- they might not want that overhead.....

* *Like I have published, MY electril bill is about 1500 USD per *year
for a
*3000 sq ft house south of Dallas, and I would be reluctant to shell
out
50K USD to have the roof coated, in ONE direction only , with a PV
array...

* *SECONDLY,,,,, check with your homeowner insurance agent.... Since
it
cost much more to install/re-install a PV array than it does to re-
shingle a
roof....... will the insurance pay for that additional cost if a
windstorm/hailstorm
requires replacement... Keep in mind that to re-shingle the roof and
fix the leaks (typically 10 yrs, regardless of 15 yr or 30yr shingles,
cost
MUCH MUCH less than the PV installation), it is typical that the PV
installation
would have to be removed, the roof stripped and re-shingled, and the
PV
installation done over again.......Perhaps the homeowner insurance
will
cover it, but, since it may double or triple the cost, * ... you
better check...
In Texas, this is a most probable thing to happen.... In Europe or
the UK or Maine, maybe not so likely... Just consider it for your own
situation.

* *The green wannabee needs to be aware of *all the probable costs
involved before making the commitment, rather than reading Mother
Earth News , and charging off in the abyss without the proper
facts......

* *Finally, be aware that since 50% of US taxpayers pay NO income tax
at
all, the big federal tax break may not apply, especially if the
'STANDARD
DEDUCTION" *is more than the "PV cost"......And, they should
investigate
the rebates and tax abatements of their particular state and town,
since
they vary all over the map, ... from enthusiastic encouragement to
absolute
prohibition.... *Good luck with all that....The info is available on
the internet...

* * I hope that any additions to this thread will try to keep a civil
posture on
their replies, so that the novice greenie can make some informed
decisions.

* * * * * * * Andy in Eureka, Texas * , retired electrical engineer

Thanks for a comprehensive analysis of the questions one should
thoroughly understand before plunging into such an installation. A
rule of thumb I've used in some similar situations is that if the
project acceptance needs government subsidies for justification, it
probably has marginal economics.

Another possible hurdle is some state rebate funds have run dry which
would delay or negate that portion of the analysis.

Joe G

On 5/18/2011 10:27 AM, Andy wrote:
Andy comments:

On a similar thread , there has been a difference of opinion on
whether a solar PV array which powers an entire house is a
reasonable thing to do...

Since it seems to have degenerated into some personal
attacks, I'd like to propose a new direction for those who are
considering this move :

Go and ask a LOCAL realtor, several if possible, what the increase
in the value on their house, on the market today, will be if they
install
a 50K solar PV array . ( This number is from another poster, who
posted that an array would cost this, before federal subsidies and
state rebates, which could amount to 50% in the US in some areas )

If it is like a swimming pool in Dallas, where a 25K investment
would
only add a few thousand to the selling price of the property if put on
the
market, OR, exclude many prospective buyers from consideration, due
to the maintenance/operational/repair/replacement costs that many
want to avoid........---- they might not want that overhead.....

Like I have published, MY electril bill is about 1500 USD per year
for a
3000 sq ft house south of Dallas, and I would be reluctant to shell
out
50K USD to have the roof coated, in ONE direction only , with a PV
array...

SECONDLY,,,,, check with your homeowner insurance agent.... Since
it
cost much more to install/re-install a PV array than it does to re-
shingle a
roof....... will the insurance pay for that additional cost if a
windstorm/hailstorm
requires replacement... Keep in mind that to re-shingle the roof and
fix the leaks (typically 10 yrs, regardless of 15 yr or 30yr shingles,
cost
MUCH MUCH less than the PV installation), it is typical that the PV
installation
would have to be removed, the roof stripped and re-shingled, and the
PV
installation done over again.......Perhaps the homeowner insurance
will
cover it, but, since it may double or triple the cost, ... you
better check...
In Texas, this is a most probable thing to happen.... In Europe or
the UK or Maine, maybe not so likely... Just consider it for your own
situation.

The green wannabee needs to be aware of all the probable costs
involved before making the commitment, rather than reading Mother
Earth News , and charging off in the abyss without the proper
facts......


Finally, be aware that since 50% of US taxpayers pay NO income tax
at
all, the big federal tax break may not apply, especially if the
'STANDARD
DEDUCTION" is more than the "PV cost"......And, they should
investigate
the rebates and tax abatements of their particular state and town,
since
they vary all over the map, ... from enthusiastic encouragement to
absolute
prohibition.... Good luck with all that....The info is available on
the internet...

I hope that any additions to this thread will try to keep a civil
posture on
their replies, so that the novice greenie can make some informed
decisions.

Andy in Eureka, Texas , retired electrical engineer

I think your 50k number is way off.

*http://tinyurl.com/5wg2m2n*

This 5060 watt system is $18k. Estimate $5k for install (way high I
think) you're looking at $23k. Then subtract the city rebate of
$2.5/watt you get $10350

So if you could get a 0 interest 36 month (city sponsored) loan your
payment would be $288/month. A bit higher than my electric bill but it
would be paid for in 3 years. Roughly.

I could be missing something obvious to you.

Jim

On May 18, 4:27*pm, Andy wrote:
Andy comments:

* * *On a similar thread , there has been a difference of opinion on
whether a solar PV array which powers an entire house is a
reasonable thing to do...

* * *Since it seems to have degenerated into some personal
attacks, I'd like to propose a new direction for those who are
considering this move :

* Go and ask a LOCAL realtor, several if possible, *what the increase
in the value on their house, on the market today, will be if they
install
a 50K solar PV array . * ( This number is from another poster, who
posted that an array would cost this, before federal subsidies and
state rebates, which could amount to 50% in the US in some areas )

* *If it is like a swimming pool in Dallas, where a 25K investment
would
only add a few thousand to the selling price of the property if put on
the
market, OR, exclude many prospective buyers from consideration, due
to the maintenance/operational/repair/replacement costs that many
want to avoid........---- they might not want that overhead.....

* *Like I have published, MY electril bill is about 1500 USD per *year
for a
*3000 sq ft house south of Dallas, and I would be reluctant to shell
out
50K USD to have the roof coated, in ONE direction only , with a PV
array...

* *SECONDLY,,,,, check with your homeowner insurance agent.... Since
it
cost much more to install/re-install a PV array than it does to re-
shingle a
roof....... will the insurance pay for that additional cost if a
windstorm/hailstorm
requires replacement... Keep in mind that to re-shingle the roof and
fix the leaks (typically 10 yrs, regardless of 15 yr or 30yr shingles,
cost
MUCH MUCH less than the PV installation), it is typical that the PV
installation
would have to be removed, the roof stripped and re-shingled, and the
PV
installation done over again.......Perhaps the homeowner insurance
will
cover it, but, since it may double or triple the cost, * ... you
better check...
In Texas, this is a most probable thing to happen.... In Europe or
the UK or Maine, maybe not so likely... Just consider it for your own
situation.

* *The green wannabee needs to be aware of *all the probable costs
involved before making the commitment, rather than reading Mother
Earth News , and charging off in the abyss without the proper
facts......

* *Finally, be aware that since 50% of US taxpayers pay NO income tax
at
all, the big federal tax break may not apply, especially if the
'STANDARD
DEDUCTION" *is more than the "PV cost"......And, they should
investigate
the rebates and tax abatements of their particular state and town,
since
they vary all over the map, ... from enthusiastic encouragement to
absolute
prohibition.... *Good luck with all that....The info is available on
the internet...

* * I hope that any additions to this thread will try to keep a civil
posture on
their replies, so that the novice greenie can make some informed
decisions.

* * * * * * * Andy in Eureka, Texas * , retired electrical engineer

I too looked into the matter of added value to the house/efffects on
selling.
As you might suppose, buyer's opinions are sharply polarised, ie they
either love them or hate them.
It rather depends too on how prominent the array is and how it effects
the character of your house.

A good solution, if viable, is to fit the thing on an outbuilding/
detatched garage where it causes a lot less excitement or even a
ground array in the garden.
However, if you sell your house soon after fitting the array you are
not likely to get your money back.

DA wrote:
responding to
http://www.homeownershub.com/mainten...re-634542-.htm
DA wrote:
Finally, be aware that since 50% of US taxpayers pay NO income tax
at all, the big federal tax break may not apply, especially if the
'STANDARD DEDUCTION" is more than the "PV cost"...

You make some great points but this may not be a concern at all.
People that pay no income tax at all have much more to worry about
than installing a PV system - raising and educating their children
for example, which is what the bulk of tax credits is intended for.

Also, $50K would be one hell of a standard deduction! Is there anyone
NOT itemizing at that level? And regardless, it's just a reason not
to take a standard deduction for that one year.

I would be much more worried about structural integrity of one's roof.
Also, as you pointed out, a conversation with the insurance company
seems an important step for me, too.

It would be interesting to learn if insurance companies treat solar
shingles any different than your "normal" PV panels on racks. Anyone
has experience to share?

yes. i have a 7.7kw array. i just signed up with a new insurance agent this
month. when asked, they said that having a pv install had no difference on
the cost of house insurance.

In article ,
"chaniarts" wrote:



yes. i have a 7.7kw array. i just signed up with a new insurance agent this
month. when asked, they said that having a pv install had no difference on
the cost of house insurance.

That's because currently there are so few of them that it is cheaper to
pay the claims than do the extra underwriting. I expect that to change
within the next 5 years.

--
"Even I realized that money was to politicians what the ecalyptus tree is to koala bears: food, water, shelter and something to crap on."
---PJ O'Rourke

Andy replies

Jim, I am using the 50K number which someone who claims to be
knowledgeable about the issue posted yesterday on this newsgroup
in a thread with a similar name. I don't know, personally, what an
installed system costs.
I am also using "his" allegation regarding federal subsidies and
state and municipal rebates... If I am incorrect, I'm sure that anyone
who
is pursuing the matter will want to get his own numbers anyway and
not rely on newsgroup advice.....

My purpose is to point out that, regardless of "subsidies" that
are
borne by the taxpayers, there are many other factors to consider in
this
endeavor, that most people might only find out AFTER they are too
committed to back out......

I find it reasonable for the numbers you quote, assuming that
similar rebates apply to the user. They sure don't apply where I live,
tho..

And I am curious at to the 5kw system you mention. If that is 5K
peak
watts from the array, that would only apply in "full sun", which the
tables
say averages 5.5 hours per day in the Dallas area.....
That's about 27 kwh per day, which is probably reasonable for around
here.
But for those areas that have less than 5.5 full sun hours per day,
like maybe
Seattle (as a guess), that capacity wouldn't be enough.....

In addition, to achieve the 27.5 kwh/day, the array would have to
be
tracked so that the sun would be "normal" to the array for the full
day.
Since I assume the array would be mounted , fixed, onto a roof, the
output would be significantly less, and would be a cosine function
for
the average value, about 64% or so (from memory), and then only if
the roof slanted in the
proper direction..... So, you see, there is more to this than the
factory
specs, which will normally assume an optimum mounted system....
However, those are technical factors which one also finds out about
only after having the system installed, not realizing the "quoted"
potential,
and then learning the engineering behind the system....

Anyone who can afford 25K ( or 50K, whatever) for a system has the
ability to learn these factors and do the tradeoff for themselves
BEFORE
making the committment , since "it ain't rocket surgery". My purpose
in the posts I have made is to encourage everyone to do so, and not
be
deterred by anyone who says "it's too complex for you to learn so you
should
just fork over the money"..... Actually, anyone with a ham operator
license above novice class has demonstrated more electrical knowledge
than
is presented in a "PV installation class", so while such a class
might be useful,
(or not), ANYONE can learn to do it......

So, as an engineer who has done a lot of this kind of thing, I'll
simply say
that the knowledge required to hook up a PV system is insignificant
compared
to getting an engineering degree, and there's lots and lots of
engineers....
I'd compare it to changing the oil in your truck, or doing a brake
job,
which doesn't require a PhD
in mechanical engineering to accomplish, tho many many things can go
wrong......
Education is the key....

But thanks for your info. It gives interested parties yet another
point of view.

Andy in Eureka, Texas

On May 18, 11:43 am, harry wrote:


A good solution, if viable, is to fit the thing on an outbuilding/
detatched garage where it causes a lot less excitement or even a
ground array in the garden.
However, if you sell your house soon after fitting the array you are
not likely to get your money back.

Andy replies:

Harry, I like that idea a lot. In my case, I put the array on my
barn since the wife didn't want a mess on the roof, and I was
only doing it on a small scale experiment anyway....

I still have the PV arrays, and have moved to a retirement house
where I have a garden, and am considering hooking them back up
to run a small irrigation pump for the garden... But, just messing....
I have no confidence in the economics of trying to run the house
with such a system....

Thanks for your input...

Andy in Eureka, Texas

On May 18, 11:15 am, GROVER wrote:
y in Eureka, Texas , retired electrical engineer

Thanks for a comprehensive analysis of the questions one should
thoroughly understand before plunging into such an installation. A
rule of thumb I've used in some similar situations is that if the
project acceptance needs government subsidies for justification, it
probably has marginal economics.

Another possible hurdle is some state rebate funds have run dry which
would delay or negate that portion of the analysis.

Joe G

Andy comments:

Good info, Joe....... While my comments may not actually have been
"comprehensive", I'm sure that by the time this thread ends, posts
from yourself, and others, will have pointed out a number of things
that
weren't covered before..... There's more to this than writing a check
and
getting free electricity for life.....

Andy in Eureka, Texas

On May 18, 1:28 pm, Kurt Ullman wrote:
In article ,

"chaniarts" wrote:

yes. i have a 7.7kw array. i just signed up with a new insurance agent this
month. when asked, they said that having a pv install had no difference on
the cost of house insurance.

That's because currently there are so few of them that it is cheaper to
pay the claims than do the extra underwriting. I expect that to change
within the next 5 years.


Andy adds:
Another think I just though of.... Most likely one has to get a
building
permit in order to have a system installed. That means that the tax
man
knows of the addition, and, since it adds to the value of the house,
the system will be taxed.... Around here the rule of thumb is that
the
yearly taxes run about 2% of the value, so that's 2% per year for the
life of the system...... and I'll bet they goose the asset value up
each
year just like they do the house......

Andy in Eureka, Texas

PS to "chainiarts" ---- How much did your 7.7Kw system cost and
who is the manufacturer ? Did you get any
rebates?
Thanks.

On May 18, 4:00*pm, Andy wrote:
Andy replies

Jim, I am using the 50K number which someone who claims to be
knowledgeable about the issue posted yesterday on this newsgroup
in a thread with a similar name. I don't know, personally, what an
installed system costs.

If you don't even know what one costs, wouldn't it be better
to start there instead of starting another post based on
assumptions you have no knowledge about?



* *I am also using "his" allegation regarding federal subsidies and
state and municipal rebates... If I am incorrect, I'm sure that anyone
who
is pursuing the matter will want to get his own numbers anyway and
not rely on newsgroup advice.....

Gee, you really think so?




* *My purpose is to point out that, regardless of "subsidies" that
are
borne by the taxpayers, *there are many other factors to consider in
this
endeavor, that most people might only find out AFTER they are too
committed to back out......

* * I find it reasonable for the numbers you quote, assuming that
similar rebates apply to the user. They sure don't apply where I live,
tho..

* * And I am curious at to the 5kw system you mention. *If that is 5K
peak
watts from the array, that would only apply in "full sun", which the
tables
say averages 5.5 hours per day in the Dallas area.....
That's about 27 kwh per day, which is probably reasonable for around
here.
But for those areas that have less than 5.5 full sun hours per day,
like maybe
Seattle (as a guess), that capacity wouldn't be enough.....

* * In addition, to achieve the 27.5 kwh/day, the array would have to
be
tracked so that the sun would be "normal" to the array for the full
day.
Since I assume the array would be mounted , fixed, onto a roof, the
output would be significantly less, and would be a cosine function
for
the average value, about 64% or so (from memory), *and then only if
the roof slanted in the
proper direction..... So, you see, there is more to this than the
factory
specs, which will normally assume an optimum mounted system....

Gee, you mean it's not as easy as hooking up an accessory to a
computer?


However, those are technical factors which one also finds out about
only after having the system installed, not realizing the "quoted"
potential,
and then learning the engineering behind the system....

Most people are never going to learn the engineering behind the
system. Good thing they don't have to either, otherwise all
the school teachers, lawyers, etc would never get one
installed.




* *Anyone who can afford 25K ( or 50K, whatever) for a system has the
ability to learn these factors and do the tradeoff for themselves
BEFORE
making the committment , since "it ain't rocket surgery". * My purpose
in the posts I have made is to encourage everyone to do so, and not
be
deterred by anyone who says "it's too complex for you to learn so you
should
just fork over the money"....

I didn't see anyone here making the claim that people should just
fork over money. The only outrageous claim regarding
complexity was that YOU said installing a residential PV array was
as easy as hooking up an accessory to a computer.




. *Actually, anyone with a ham operator
license above novice class has demonstrated more electrical knowledge
than
is presented in a "PV installation class", *so while such a class
might be useful,
*(or not), ANYONE can learn to do it......

Seems like a broad assumpiton, unless you've actually
taken the class. And even if one does learn it, in most places
in the USA they can't install one for someone else unless
they are a licensed electrician. In many places they
could probably install it on their own house.

But, if it's really pitfalls that you're worried that people
could fall into, why not bring up the obvious issue of
warranties. I'd suspect that on a DIY install by the
guy who doesn't even take a class, there is a good
chance the warranties on the system will be kaput.




* *So, as an engineer who has done a lot of this kind of thing, I'll
simply say
that the knowledge required to hook up a PV system is insignificant
compared
to getting an engineering degree, and there's lots and lots of
engineers....
I'd compare it to changing the oil in your truck, or doing a brake
job,
which doesn't require a PhD
in mechanical engineering to accomplish, tho many many things can go
wrong......

I can legally change the oil in my friends truck. I can't legally
install a PV array on his house here in NJ because I'm not
a licensed electrician.

On May 18, 12:15*pm, (DA) wrote:
responding tohttp://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/Solar-Systems-Entry-level-Mo...

DA wrote:
Finally, be aware that since 50% of US taxpayers pay NO income tax
at all, the big federal tax break may not apply, especially if the
'STANDARD DEDUCTION" *is more than the "PV cost"...

You make some great points but this may not be a concern at all. People
that pay no income tax at all have much more to worry about than
installing a PV system - raising and educating their children for example,
which is what the bulk of tax credits is intended for.

Also, $50K would be one hell of a standard deduction! Is there anyone NOT
itemizing at that level? And regardless, it's just a reason not to take a
standard deduction for that one year.


Andy has that part wrong too. It's a federal tax credit, which has
nothing
to do with standard or itemized deductions. The credit comes directly
off your total tax liability. So, if you install a $50K PV system,
you take
$15K off your total taxes. Meaning if you pay $15K a year or more in
taxes you get the full credit.

On 5/18/2011 11:43 AM, harry wrote:
On May 18, 4:27 pm, wrote:
Andy comments:

On a similar thread , there has been a difference of opinion on
whether a solar PV array which powers an entire house is a
reasonable thing to do...

Since it seems to have degenerated into some personal
attacks, I'd like to propose a new direction for those who are
considering this move :

Go and ask a LOCAL realtor, several if possible, what the increase
in the value on their house, on the market today, will be if they
install
a 50K solar PV array . ( This number is from another poster, who
posted that an array would cost this, before federal subsidies and
state rebates, which could amount to 50% in the US in some areas )

If it is like a swimming pool in Dallas, where a 25K investment
would
only add a few thousand to the selling price of the property if put on
the
market, OR, exclude many prospective buyers from consideration, due
to the maintenance/operational/repair/replacement costs that many
want to avoid........---- they might not want that overhead.....

Like I have published, MY electril bill is about 1500 USD per year
for a
3000 sq ft house south of Dallas, and I would be reluctant to shell
out
50K USD to have the roof coated, in ONE direction only , with a PV
array...

SECONDLY,,,,, check with your homeowner insurance agent.... Since
it
cost much more to install/re-install a PV array than it does to re-
shingle a
roof....... will the insurance pay for that additional cost if a
windstorm/hailstorm
requires replacement... Keep in mind that to re-shingle the roof and
fix the leaks (typically 10 yrs, regardless of 15 yr or 30yr shingles,
cost
MUCH MUCH less than the PV installation), it is typical that the PV
installation
would have to be removed, the roof stripped and re-shingled, and the
PV
installation done over again.......Perhaps the homeowner insurance
will
cover it, but, since it may double or triple the cost, ... you
better check...
In Texas, this is a most probable thing to happen.... In Europe or
the UK or Maine, maybe not so likely... Just consider it for your own
situation.

The green wannabee needs to be aware of all the probable costs
involved before making the commitment, rather than reading Mother
Earth News , and charging off in the abyss without the proper
facts......

Finally, be aware that since 50% of US taxpayers pay NO income tax
at
all, the big federal tax break may not apply, especially if the
'STANDARD
DEDUCTION" is more than the "PV cost"......And, they should
investigate
the rebates and tax abatements of their particular state and town,
since
they vary all over the map, ... from enthusiastic encouragement to
absolute
prohibition.... Good luck with all that....The info is available on
the internet...

I hope that any additions to this thread will try to keep a civil
posture on
their replies, so that the novice greenie can make some informed
decisions.

Andy in Eureka, Texas , retired electrical engineer

I too looked into the matter of added value to the house/efffects on
selling.
As you might suppose, buyer's opinions are sharply polarised, ie they
either love them or hate them.
It rather depends too on how prominent the array is and how it effects
the character of your house.

A good solution, if viable, is to fit the thing on an outbuilding/
detatched garage where it causes a lot less excitement or even a
ground array in the garden.
However, if you sell your house soon after fitting the array you are
not likely to get your money back.

I suppose "Green House" may have a completely different meaning when it
comes time to sell your home. ^_^

TDD

On May 18, 11:15 am, (DA) wrote:

Also, $50K would be one hell of a standard deduction! Is there anyone NOT
itemizing at that level? And regardless, it's just a reason not to take a
standard deduction for that one year.

Andy replies:
The tax credit is against the tax liability, so it comes off the
bottom
line instead of the top. Still, if the bottom line isn't as great as
the
tax liability, I'm pretty sure the IRS won't give you credit in excess
of
the tax you owe. In other words, if you have a 10K tax credit, but
only
owe 8K in tax, I doubt they send you a check for 2K. But I'll admit
I
haven't looked into it, tho anyone trying to do it for income tax
purposes
ought to check it out. Some of the IRS rules are very arbitrary.
One
place to ask is misc.taxes.moderated which is a newsgroup that is
staffed and frequented by tax people.


I would be much more worried about structural integrity of one's roof.
Also, as you pointed out, a conversation with the insurance company seems
an important step for me, too.

***** While the panels do add some weight, it would be distributed
over
a wide area, and I doubt it would bother the structure , especially if
there
were only one layer of shingles. Personally, I'd be more worried
about
how the panels are attached to the roof, since it would certainly
involve
drilling some holes.... a LOT of holes..... which, over time, might
cause
a problem..... If it did, it would probably be a bear to try to fix
and patch...


It would be interesting to learn if insurance companies treat solar
shingles any different than your "normal" PV panels on racks. Anyone has
experience to share?

***** I've never worked with solar shingles. I think I'll go and
google it
to see how they are hooked together. Google is our friend....
Also, there are a lot of engineers that hang out on
sci.electronics.design
that may have some first hand experience.....

Andy in Eureka, Texas

Andy in Eureka, Texas

On May 18, 9:00*pm, Andy wrote:
Andy replies

Jim, I am using the 50K number which someone who claims to be
knowledgeable about the issue posted yesterday on this newsgroup
in a thread with a similar name. I don't know, personally, what an
installed system costs.
* *I am also using "his" allegation regarding federal subsidies and
state and municipal rebates... If I am incorrect, I'm sure that anyone
who
is pursuing the matter will want to get his own numbers anyway and
not rely on newsgroup advice.....

* *My purpose is to point out that, regardless of "subsidies" that
are
borne by the taxpayers, *there are many other factors to consider in
this
endeavor, that most people might only find out AFTER they are too
committed to back out......

* * I find it reasonable for the numbers you quote, assuming that
similar rebates apply to the user. They sure don't apply where I live,
tho..

* * And I am curious at to the 5kw system you mention. *If that is 5K
peak
watts from the array, that would only apply in "full sun", which the
tables
say averages 5.5 hours per day in the Dallas area.....
That's about 27 kwh per day, which is probably reasonable for around
here.
But for those areas that have less than 5.5 full sun hours per day,
like maybe
Seattle (as a guess), that capacity wouldn't be enough.....

* * In addition, to achieve the 27.5 kwh/day, the array would have to
be
tracked so that the sun would be "normal" to the array for the full
day.
Since I assume the array would be mounted , fixed, onto a roof, the
output would be significantly less, and would be a cosine function
for
the average value, about 64% or so (from memory), *and then only if
the roof slanted in the
proper direction..... So, you see, there is more to this than the
factory
specs, which will normally assume an optimum mounted system....
However, those are technical factors which one also finds out about
only after having the system installed, not realizing the "quoted"
potential,
and then learning the engineering behind the system....

* *Anyone who can afford 25K ( or 50K, whatever) for a system has the
ability to learn these factors and do the tradeoff for themselves
BEFORE
making the committment , since "it ain't rocket surgery". * My purpose
in the posts I have made is to encourage everyone to do so, and not
be
deterred by anyone who says "it's too complex for you to learn so you
should
just fork over the money"..... *Actually, anyone with a ham operator
license above novice class has demonstrated more electrical knowledge
than
is presented in a "PV installation class", *so while such a class
might be useful,
*(or not), ANYONE can learn to do it......

* *So, as an engineer who has done a lot of this kind of thing, I'll
simply say
that the knowledge required to hook up a PV system is insignificant
compared
to getting an engineering degree, and there's lots and lots of
engineers....
I'd compare it to changing the oil in your truck, or doing a brake
job,
which doesn't require a PhD
in mechanical engineering to accomplish, tho many many things can go
wrong......
* *Education is the key....

But thanks for your info. *It gives interested parties yet another
point of view.

* * * * * * * * * * * *Andy in Eureka, Texas

There is a number for your area. In my case it is 830. This is the
number of Kwh generated per year per kwp installed. You need to find
out what your number is, (prob. around 1000 fir you).
Thers additionally a chart that shows % reduction in output as the
array deviates from due South and from the optimum angle (to the
ground).
My optimum angle is 35 degrees, it will be more like 10 degrees in
Texas I should think.

This is all for fixed arrays. The cost of rotators is not generally
viable.

The current technology is silocone but they are not all a like. Some
perform better in lower light conditions than others, ie in the
shoulder period. So while they have the same Kwp, they generate more
Kw because they perform better during the shoulder periods.
Most power is generated between 10.00h and 14.00h.

So you need to look at the graphs of power generated/available light.
The less"peaky" the curve the more power you get in any given day.

A very major issue is shading. As the panels are series connected,
shade on one panel effects them all.
I cut back trees on my property to overcome this problem, later in the
day in my case.

On May 19, 1:20 am, harry wrote:

There is a number for your area. In my case it is 830. This is the
number of Kwh generated per year per kwp installed. You need to find
out what your number is, (prob. around 1000 fir you).

**** Thanks haarry. A back of the napkin calculation says my
number is more like 1200 for Dallas (1.0 x 5.5 X 365 X 64% ), but
I'd
need to look up the specific criteria used in your number to
see if I left anything out.


Thers additionally a chart that shows % reduction in output as the
array deviates from due South and from the optimum angle (to the
ground).
My optimum angle is 35 degrees, it will be more like 10 degrees in
Texas I should think.

**** I agree. My latitude is about 36 deg N...... and I don't
remember
the sun path deviation thru the year. ( I should, since celestial
nav was once a hobby, but that was a long time ago :)) )


This is all for fixed arrays. The cost of rotators is not generally
viable.

***** Perhaps some mechanical guy will come up with something
eventually. But, in Texas, we need to practically weld the panels
to the roof since we are subject to large hail, tornadoes, and , at
the very least, high winds.... I don't think you have those
environmental variables in the UK..... On the other hand, on my
trips to south England, I don't think I've ever seen the
sun :))))))


The current technology is silocone but they are not all a like. Some
perform better in lower light conditions than others, ie in the
shoulder period. So while they have the same Kwp, they generate more
Kw because they perform better during the shoulder periods.
Most power is generated between 10.00h and 14.00h.

*** I guess you are using GMT...... Ok, that is consistent with the
cosine function I was talking about, with "local noon" being 0 deg.
The panels I used were amorphous silicon, by UniSolar. I recently
google them again, and they have some interesting new items, including
"solar shingles".... They are just lain on top of the normal
asphalt
shingle and a couple holes bored in the roof to bring two wires thru,
and the interconnection done in the attic...... It would be a bitch
to replace the roof shingles....


So you need to look at the graphs of power generated/available light.
The less"peaky" the curve the more power you get in any given day.

**** Like I mentioned, Dallas is rated at 5.5 hrs of "faverage ull
sun" per day.
For other readers, that means that the power generated is the same
as if the sun were directly overhead at optimun angle for 5.5 hours.
It averages out things like clouds but I don't think it averages out
the
sun movement and seasonal angle , and assumes a tracked array.....
I guess I need to check on that.....

A very major issue is shading. As the panels are series connected,
shade on one panel effects them all.

**** In my experimental system, I used blocking diodes and paralleled
the
output to the charge controller. Shading, in that case, applied to
individual
panels. I understand that some panels are manufactured with
"shading
diodes" to minimize this, but I don't know if they work well since
I've
never tried them...

I cut back trees on my property to overcome this problem, later in the
day in my case.

****** I live in a wilderness area with lots and lots of trees, and
the south
side of my house has some blocking. But in the afternoon, when the
sun is in the west, it's pretty clear already. Plus, I have a high ,
sloped
roof, if I were to mount it there.... Actually, that would shade the
roof a
bit more and cut down on the heat in my attic...... hmmmmm.....

** Thanks for the reply Harry. It's nice to be able to learn from
someone who
actually has an installation and has the skills to evaluate the
performance.
So I have a couple questions :
1) What is your system capacity and how much did it cost ?

2) Did it meet the manufacturer's literature, or was the output
less due to "other circumstances" ???

3) What is the cost of electricity per kwh in your area?
( Around here , it is about 10.5 cents per kwh )

4) Did the cost make your real estate tax go up, and your
house insurance premium go up ?
(I don't know how it works in the UK, but here in Texas the
typical
yearly tax is about 2% of the appraised value of the
property and about 0.5% of the replacement value for
homeowner insurance)

Thanks again , Henry. I'm sure that most of those who post
here will have an interet in your first hand experience...

Andy in Eureka, Texas

In article
,
Andy wrote:

Thanks again , Henry. I'm sure that most of those who post
here will have an interet in your first hand experience...

Count me out of any interest in Harry's babbling. How much credibility
are you going to give a guy who opines, even insists, that a grid-tie
solar system is a DIY job?

Maybe Texas is as lawless as England, but in CA anyway, you damn well
need a building permit, it absolutely has to be wired up by a licensed
electrician, and to qualify for any rebates or sell any power to the
utility it has to be an officially approved system, installed by a
licensed contractor who likewise has to have undergone training and been
State approved.

On May 19, 8:45*am, Andy wrote:
On May 19, 1:20 am, harry wrote:

There is a number for your area. *In my case it is 830. *This is the
number of Kwh generated per year per kwp installed. You need to find
out what your number is, (prob. around 1000 fir you).

**** Thanks haarry. *A back of the napkin calculation says my
number is more like 1200 for Dallas *(1.0 x 5.5 X 365 X 64% ), but
I'd
need to look up the specific criteria used in your number to
see if I left anything out.

Thers additionally a chart that shows % reduction in output as the
array deviates from due South and from the optimum angle (to the
ground).
My optimum angle is 35 degrees, it will be more like 10 degrees in
Texas I should think.

**** I agree. * My latitude is about 36 deg N...... *and I don't
remember
the sun path deviation thru the year. ( I should, since celestial
nav was once a hobby, but that was a long time ago :)) *)



This is all for fixed arrays. *The cost of rotators is not generally
viable.

***** Perhaps some mechanical guy will come up with something
eventually. But, in Texas, we need to practically weld the panels
to the roof since we are subject to large hail, tornadoes, and , at
the very least, high winds.... I don't think you have those
environmental variables in the UK..... On the other hand, on my
trips to south England, I don't think I've ever seen the
sun * :))))))

The current technology is silocone but they are not all a like. Some
perform better in lower light conditions than others, ie in the
shoulder period. *So while they have the same Kwp, they generate more
Kw because they perform better during the shoulder periods.
Most power is generated between 10.00h and 14.00h.

*** I guess you are using GMT...... Ok, that is consistent with the
cosine function I was talking about, with "local noon" being 0 deg.
The panels I used were amorphous silicon, by UniSolar. *I recently
google them again, and they have some interesting new items, including
"solar shingles".... *They are just lain on top *of the normal
asphalt
shingle and a couple holes bored in the roof to bring two wires thru,
and the interconnection done in the attic...... It would be a bitch
to replace the roof shingles....



So you need to look at the graphs of power generated/available light.
The less"peaky" the curve the more power you get in any given day.

**** Like I mentioned, Dallas is rated at 5.5 hrs of "faverage ull
sun" per day.
For other readers, that means that the power generated is the same
as if the sun were directly overhead at optimun angle for 5.5 hours.
It averages out things like clouds but I don't think it averages out
the
sun movement and seasonal angle , and assumes a tracked array.....
*I guess I need to check on that.....

A very major issue is shading. *As the panels are series connected,
shade on one panel effects them all.

**** *In my experimental system, I used blocking diodes and paralleled
the
output to the charge controller. Shading, in that case, applied to
individual
panels. * I understand that some panels are manufactured with
"shading
diodes" to minimize this, *but I don't know if they work well since
I've
never tried them...

I cut back trees on my property to overcome this problem, later in the
day in my case.

****** I live in a wilderness area with lots and lots of trees, and
the south
side of my house has some blocking. But in the afternoon, when the
sun is in the west, it's pretty clear already. *Plus, I have a high ,
sloped
roof, if I were to mount it there.... Actually, that would shade the
roof a
bit more and cut down on the heat in my attic...... hmmmmm.....

** Thanks for the reply Harry. *It's nice to be able to learn from
someone who
actually has an installation and has the skills to evaluate the
performance.
So I have a couple questions :
*1) What is your system capacity and how much did it cost ?

*2) Did it meet the manufacturer's literature, or was the output
* * *less due to "other circumstances" *???

*3) What is the cost of electricity per kwh in your area?
* * * ( Around here , it is about 10.5 cents per kwh )

*4) *Did the cost make your real estate tax go up, and your
* * * house insurance premium go up ?
* * * *(I don't know how it works in the UK, but here in Texas the
typical
* * * * * yearly tax is about 2% of the appraised value of the
* * * * * property and about 0.5% of the replacement value for
* * * * * homeowner insurance)

* *Thanks again , Henry. *I'm sure that most of those who post
here will have an interet in your first hand experience...

* * * * * * * * * * * Andy in Eureka, Texas

With regard to #4, under NJ law, your real estate tax appraisal
cannot be increased when you add solar. Would not be
surprised that similar laws could apply in other areas since
the goal is to encourage deployment.

Also, the whole idea of asking a realtor what the increase in
property value for a PV system would be is largely pointless.
The answer isn't going to be worth much, because so
many factors affect a sales price it's very difficult to seperate
something like that out. You'd need a study done to try to
do true comparable sales analysis and even then it's going
to be difficult.

One approach to figuring out what it's worth is to look at
how much positive cash flow it produces over it's lifespan
and then discounting that back to an equivalent present
day cash value. I think that would produce a favorable
number, but whether or not you realize that in an actual
sale, is anybody's guess.

On 5/19/2011 7:54 AM, Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,
wrote:

Thanks again , Henry. I'm sure that most of those who post
here will have an interet in your first hand experience...
Count me out of any interest in Harry's babbling. How much credibility
are you going to give a guy who opines, even insists, that a grid-tie
solar system is a DIY job?

Maybe Texas is as lawless as England, but in CA anyway, you damn well
need a building permit, it absolutely has to be wired up by a licensed
electrician, and to qualify for any rebates or sell any power to the
utility it has to be an officially approved system, installed by a
licensed contractor who likewise has to have undergone training and been
State approved.

AFAIK: Here (Austin, TX) you need a bld permit and permission to tie
into the grid and that requires a licensed electrician. In addition, you
need to use one of the cities approved installers to get a $2.5/watt
rebate. Without the rebate, it just wouldn't make any sense financially.

Jim

Jim

On May 19, 9:36*am, JimT wrote:
On 5/19/2011 7:54 AM, Smitty Two wrote:





In article
,
* *wrote:

* * Thanks again , Henry. *I'm sure that most of those who post
here will have an interet in your first hand experience...
Count me out of any interest in Harry's babbling. How much credibility
are you going to give a guy who opines, even insists, that a grid-tie
solar system is a DIY job?

Maybe Texas is as lawless as England, but in CA anyway, you damn well
need a building permit, it absolutely has to be wired up by a licensed
electrician, and to qualify for any rebates or sell any power to the
utility it has to be an officially approved system, installed by a
licensed contractor who likewise has to have undergone training and been
State approved.

AFAIK: Here (Austin, TX) you need a bld permit and permission to tie
into the grid and that requires a licensed electrician. In addition, you
need to use one of the cities approved installers to get a $2.5/watt
rebate. Without the rebate, it just wouldn't make any sense financially.

Jim

Jim- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Good to see some sanity being introduced. I was beginning to think
I was the only one that thought a PV install has some big issues
and isn't something a DIY person is going to figure out in an hour,
which is what harry claimed. We also had Andy claiming it's
no more complicated than adding an accessory to a PC. So
much for any credibility those two have.

I don't doubt that in some cases, local law permitting, you could
install one yourself. But it would take a major investment in
learning about all the various issues involved. And I'd start
with figuring out what implications it may have for rebates
and warranties. Also, given that there is at least a 30%
federal tax credit available, as well as possibly other rebates
on the total system price, you're in effect getting at least
30% off the labor of a professional installer.

On 5/19/2011 9:19 AM, wrote:
On May 19, 9:36 am, wrote:
On 5/19/2011 7:54 AM, Smitty Two wrote:





In article
,
wrote:
Thanks again , Henry. I'm sure that most of those who post
here will have an interet in your first hand experience...
Count me out of any interest in Harry's babbling. How much credibility
are you going to give a guy who opines, even insists, that a grid-tie
solar system is a DIY job?
Maybe Texas is as lawless as England, but in CA anyway, you damn well
need a building permit, it absolutely has to be wired up by a licensed
electrician, and to qualify for any rebates or sell any power to the
utility it has to be an officially approved system, installed by a
licensed contractor who likewise has to have undergone training and been
State approved.
AFAIK: Here (Austin, TX) you need a bld permit and permission to tie
into the grid and that requires a licensed electrician. In addition, you
need to use one of the cities approved installers to get a $2.5/watt
rebate. Without the rebate, it just wouldn't make any sense financially.

Jim

Jim- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
Good to see some sanity being introduced.

I wouldn't go that far. :-) I'm not really sure how difficult installing
a "out-of-the-box" system would be. From what I've seen it doesn't look
that difficult.

I wouldn't be surprised if there is quite a bit of favoritism going on
with these "approved" installers. That sort of stuff is pretty common
here. Also, I would have to check to be sure the rebate money is
availible. The city only approved $XXX amount for the program. When I
was looking into getting a LED pool light the installers didn't want to
bother with all the city regulations. For some things it's much better
to be out of the city limits. Austin IS "weird".

Jim


no more complicated than adding an accessory to a PC. So
much for any credibility those two have.

I don't doubt that in some cases, local law permitting, you could
install one yourself. But it would take a major investment in
learning about all the various issues involved. And I'd start
with figuring out what implications it may have for rebates
and warranties. Also, given that there is at least a 30%
federal tax credit available, as well as possibly other rebates
on the total system price, you're in effect getting at least
30% off the labor of a professional installer.

Andy wrote:


The tax credit is against the tax liability, so it comes off the
bottom
line instead of the top. Still, if the bottom line isn't as great as
the
tax liability, I'm pretty sure the IRS won't give you credit in excess
of
the tax you owe.

There are refundable tax credits where you can get back more than you owe. The
earned income credit is one. But the energy credit is not.

Some of the IRS rules are very arbitrary.

That's because they don't come from the IRS but from Congress by way of the IRS.
-- Doug

On May 19, 7:54 am, Smitty Two wrote:

Count me out of any interest in Harry's babbling. How much credibility
are you going to give a guy who opines, even insists, that a grid-tie
solar system is a DIY job?

Maybe Texas is as lawless as England, but in CA anyway, you damn well
need a building permit, it absolutely has to be wired up by a licensed
electrician, and to qualify for any rebates or sell any power to the
utility it has to be an officially approved system, installed by a
licensed contractor who likewise has to have undergone training and been
State approved.

Andy replies:
In Texas, only state buildings are required to enforce state
building
codes. Individual municipalites may adopt them, separately, if
approved by the local commissions and mayors.....
In general, most cities require a licensed electrician to hook to
the grid, and many require building permits for such simple things
as adding an electrical outlet. The requirements are all over the
map.
As a licensed electrical engineer, I've wired a lot of stuff,
including
200 amp service entrances, to property I own in areas that have
NO building codes. The local electrical supplier ( TXU) provided a
schematic of their requirements and a list of suggested materials,
and when I completed it a lineman came out, saw that it was fine,
and hooked it up to the grid. At no time was I asked to demonstrate
any qualifications --- either it meets the electric company's
requirements,
or it didn't. Obviously, that can't be done in Dallas. Like I said,
it is
up to the local municipality to pass the codes they want.
In my present house, which I built 6 years ago, there is no
building
inspection required unless the owner wants one..... It is up to the
owner to select a licensed contractor with a good reputation, and it
is
up to the contractor to use qualified labor...... In Texas, in these
areas, we believe in looking out for ourselves.....
Of course, when a house is being sold, a home inspection is
usually
required and any non-NEC compliant electrical work will be flagged,
and
the seller will be required to correct it.....

So, you see, things aren't the same in your world....

Andy in Eureka, Texas

On May 19, 9:31 am, JimT wrote:
Jim says:

I wouldn't go that far. :-) I'm not really sure how difficult installing
a "out-of-the-box" system would be. From what I've seen it doesn't look
that difficult.

***** I looked into this last night and found that Unisolar includes
an
owner's manual with their solar shingles so they can easily be
installed by a layman.... Obviously, that doesn't include tying the
inverter into the grid , tho... As a licensed EE and retired senior
principal engineer from Raytheon, I'll admit that my perspective is
different from the laymen who post here. But the stuff we are talking
about here is stuff I could do when I was a ham operator back
in high school...... It ain't rocket surgery...if one uses an "out of
box"
system with an owner's manual ----excepting the final grid connection.
That part should be done by a professional, in my opinion, who would
also inspect the entire thing first and say whether it was safe....
and
met NEC.

I wouldn't be surprised if there is quite a bit of favoritism going on
with these "approved" installers. That sort of stuff is pretty common
here. Also, I would have to check to be sure the rebate money is
availible. The city only approved $XXX amount for the program. When I
was looking into getting a LED pool light the installers didn't want to
bother with all the city regulations. For some things it's much better
to be out of the city limits. Austin IS "weird".

Jim

****** Yes, regulations are all over the map. Up north, where almost
everything is unionized, I suspect that union influence drives a lot
of the requirement for licensed (that means UNION) electricians and
contractors.... Not so much here in Texas. While nobody should
dispute using experienced personnel for significant work, up in
Plano, north of Dallas, one needs a building permit to put in a
closet light, complete with electrical inspection ---- although the
homeowner is allowed to do the work.... Actually, not really
a bad idea.... :))) If it passes inspection, and meets NEC,
what does it matter who does the work ? IMO



I don't doubt that in some cases, local law permitting, you could
install one yourself. But it would take a major investment in
learning about all the various issues involved. And I'd start
with figuring out what implications it may have for rebates
and warranties. Also, given that there is at least a 30%
federal tax credit available, as well as possibly other rebates
on the total system price, you're in effect getting at least
30% off the labor of a professional installer.

***** I agree completely. Some people pride themselves on learning
the subject and doing the work themselves ----- others just shrug
it off and say "it's too complicated"..... One has only to read
various
questions on alt.home.repair to conclude that some people don't have
the skill to replace a recepticle in a wall outlet..... but if they
were
shown how to do it, without getting zapped, they would no longer
hesitate...... It just takes the comittment to learn.. Some have
it,
some run from it.

Andy in Eureka, Texas

In article
,
Andy wrote:

So, you see, things aren't the same in your world....

To quote your most well-known a.h.r. State-mate, "you say that like it's
a bad thing."

On Thu, 19 May 2011 09:37:08 -0700 (PDT), Andy
wrote:



****** Yes, regulations are all over the map. Up north, where almost
everything is unionized, I suspect that union influence drives a lot
of the requirement for licensed (that means UNION) electricians and
contractors....

Doesn't work that way. Unions have contracts with businesses, not
homeowners.
I've had licensed electricians put in new services, and licensed
plumbers and HVAC do plumbing and HVAC work in my homes.
None were union.
Don't have to be union to pull a permit, just need a license.
No need to belong to a union to get licensed, though that might be a
quicker path for training in some cases.
This in Chicago and a close suburb.
BTW, when I left the Navy, U.S. Steel wanted me to serve a 5 year
apprenticeship to sponsor me for a stationary engineers license.
They paid badly, even though I was member of the Steel workers,
so I passed and found a better job.
A bit later the Seafarers union wanted a long apprenticeship as a
wiper before sponsoring me for a fireman/watertender Coast Guard
license.
Long story short, I used my Navy experience to take the CG test and
got my license before I boarded a merchant ship - at better pay..
And later, stale as I was, used the same experience to take the
stationary engineer's test and get that license.
Never used that one, or the real estate license either, as the economy
got better and I found better work.
Bottom line for all these licenses is provable experience with a
business or equivalent military.
If the business is unionized, the union gets involved in setting up
training for licensing.
But any good business should do that, union or not.
You're in a different wold if you think everything up north is
unionized. Unions are almost dead.
Still make a good bogeyman though.

--Vic

Andy wrote:
On May 18, 1:28 pm, Kurt Ullman wrote:
In article ,

"chaniarts" wrote:

yes. i have a 7.7kw array. i just signed up with a new insurance
agent this month. when asked, they said that having a pv install
had no difference on the cost of house insurance.

That's because currently there are so few of them that it is cheaper
to pay the claims than do the extra underwriting. I expect that to
change within the next 5 years.


Andy adds:
Another think I just though of.... Most likely one has to get a
building
permit in order to have a system installed. That means that the tax
man
knows of the addition, and, since it adds to the value of the house,
the system will be taxed.... Around here the rule of thumb is that
the
yearly taxes run about 2% of the value, so that's 2% per year for the
life of the system...... and I'll bet they goose the asset value up
each
year just like they do the house......

there were both building permits from the town, and paperwork from the power
company to be able to tie into the grid. that part has to be done by an
electrician approved by the power company, who came out and inspected twice
during my install, and they were also the one to install the secondary
meter.

valuation of houses for tax purposes, in my area, go by area of the house,
area of the lot, type of nearby houses, outbuildings, pools, and general
finish compared to houses built near that time in that area. they don't
account for pv installs.

Andy in Eureka, Texas

PS to "chainiarts" ---- How much did your 7.7Kw system cost and
who is the manufacturer ? Did you get any
rebates?
Thanks.

my system 'cost' $44k. federal rebate of 30%. power company rebate of 50%.
state rebate of 2.2%. power company buyback is equal to cost (ie if i
generate 1kwh, it offsets the cost of 1kwh of grid draw). at the end of the
year, if i've generated more than usage, i get a credit for the following
year.

i am just completing 1 year of service in 2 weeks.

i have a computerized monitor on it, so have pretty complete data on it.

1.4mwh generated. highest peak is 6.7kw generated. highest daily peak is
54kwh.

my usual power bill is ~$1800/year. last 12 months it was $400, so $1400
saved. power company has filed for rate increases every year for the last 5,
and there's one to take affect this summer, so the savings will increase
every year.

payback time is about 4.5 years. without rebates, it's not financially
feasable.

Andy wrote:
I would be much more worried about structural integrity of one's
roof. Also, as you pointed out, a conversation with the insurance
company seems an important step for me, too.

***** While the panels do add some weight, it would be distributed
over
a wide area, and I doubt it would bother the structure , especially if
there
were only one layer of shingles. Personally, I'd be more worried
about
how the panels are attached to the roof, since it would certainly
involve
drilling some holes.... a LOT of holes..... which, over time, might
cause
a problem..... If it did, it would probably be a bear to try to fix
and patch...

i have a flat foam roof, but panels are installed on stanchions and not
directly attached to the roof structure on both flat and non-flat roofs. the
stanchions are tied through the roof into the rafters, and then the roof
penetrations are resealed.

there's less weight considerations for the modules than there are just
walking around on the roof. you do have wind loading to worry about, and of
course, hail. you also have to worry about shading from any means, like
chimneys, antennas, trees, etc. ideally it should face south, and you should
be able to see the horizon both to the east and west.

On May 19, 1:45*pm, Andy wrote:
On May 19, 1:20 am, harry wrote:

There is a number for your area. *In my case it is 830. *This is the
number of Kwh generated per year per kwp installed. You need to find
out what your number is, (prob. around 1000 fir you).

**** Thanks haarry. *A back of the napkin calculation says my
number is more like 1200 for Dallas *(1.0 x 5.5 X 365 X 64% ), but
I'd
need to look up the specific criteria used in your number to
see if I left anything out.

Thers additionally a chart that shows % reduction in output as the
array deviates from due South and from the optimum angle (to the
ground).
My optimum angle is 35 degrees, it will be more like 10 degrees in
Texas I should think.

**** I agree. * My latitude is about 36 deg N...... *and I don't
remember
the sun path deviation thru the year. ( I should, since celestial
nav was once a hobby, but that was a long time ago :)) *)



This is all for fixed arrays. *The cost of rotators is not generally
viable.

***** Perhaps some mechanical guy will come up with something
eventually. But, in Texas, we need to practically weld the panels
to the roof since we are subject to large hail, tornadoes, and , at
the very least, high winds.... I don't think you have those
environmental variables in the UK..... On the other hand, on my
trips to south England, I don't think I've ever seen the
sun * :))))))

The current technology is silocone but they are not all a like. Some
perform better in lower light conditions than others, ie in the
shoulder period. *So while they have the same Kwp, they generate more
Kw because they perform better during the shoulder periods.
Most power is generated between 10.00h and 14.00h.

*** I guess you are using GMT...... Ok, that is consistent with the
cosine function I was talking about, with "local noon" being 0 deg.
The panels I used were amorphous silicon, by UniSolar. *I recently
google them again, and they have some interesting new items, including
"solar shingles".... *They are just lain on top *of the normal
asphalt
shingle and a couple holes bored in the roof to bring two wires thru,
and the interconnection done in the attic...... It would be a bitch
to replace the roof shingles....



So you need to look at the graphs of power generated/available light.
The less"peaky" the curve the more power you get in any given day.

**** Like I mentioned, Dallas is rated at 5.5 hrs of "faverage ull
sun" per day.
For other readers, that means that the power generated is the same
as if the sun were directly overhead at optimun angle for 5.5 hours.
It averages out things like clouds but I don't think it averages out
the
sun movement and seasonal angle , and assumes a tracked array.....
*I guess I need to check on that.....

A very major issue is shading. *As the panels are series connected,
shade on one panel effects them all.

**** *In my experimental system, I used blocking diodes and paralleled
the
output to the charge controller. Shading, in that case, applied to
individual
panels. * I understand that some panels are manufactured with
"shading
diodes" to minimize this, *but I don't know if they work well since
I've
never tried them...

I cut back trees on my property to overcome this problem, later in the
day in my case.

****** I live in a wilderness area with lots and lots of trees, and
the south
side of my house has some blocking. But in the afternoon, when the
sun is in the west, it's pretty clear already. *Plus, I have a high ,
sloped
roof, if I were to mount it there.... Actually, that would shade the
roof a
bit more and cut down on the heat in my attic...... hmmmmm.....

** Thanks for the reply Harry. *It's nice to be able to learn from
someone who
actually has an installation and has the skills to evaluate the
performance.
So I have a couple questions :

*1) What is your system capacity and how much did it cost ?
My systemi s 3.88Kwp.It cost £14,500 installed (=$23.000?). I think
most stuff is cheaper in America though than here..

*2) Did it meet the manufacturer's literature, or was the output
* * *less due to "other circumstances" *???
It frequently hits or exceeds the rated output. This is apparently
normal with a new array. I t will fall back ina few weeks to rated
power apparently

*3) What is the cost of electricity per kwh in your area?
* * * ( Around here , it is about 10.5 cents per kwh )
I pay around £0.12/Kwh (= $0.20/Kwh)
.. However I am paid £0.41/Kwh for everything generated whether I use
it myself or export it. I get an additional £0.03/Kwh for exported
power.
All is tax free and inflation linked for 25 years.
It works out at 11.5% return on capital, which these days is a really
good deal.
The thing has been runnining for three weeks now, I have generated
530Kwh.

*4) *Did the cost make your real estate tax go up, and your
* * * house insurance premium go up ?
Our tax system is different to yours. No extra taxes. Yet.
I have notified my house insurance company, they don't want any more
money. I suspect when they get their heads round the business, this
might change.

BTW,by shading I meant things like trees and chimneys casting a shadow
on the array.

* * * *(I don't know how it works in the UK, but here in Texas the
typical
* * * * * yearly tax is about 2% of the appraised value of the
* * * * * property and about 0.5% of the replacement value for
* * * * * homeowner insurance)

* *Thanks again , Henry. *I'm sure that most of those who post
here will have an interet in your first hand experience...

* * * * * * * * * * * Andy in Eureka, Texas

On May 19, 1:54*pm, Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,

*Andy wrote:
* *Thanks again , Henry. *I'm sure that most of those who post
here will have an interet in your first hand experience...

Count me out of any interest in Harry's babbling. How much credibility
are you going to give a guy who opines, even insists, that a grid-tie
solar system is a DIY job?

Maybe Texas is as lawless as England, but in CA anyway, you damn well
need a building permit, it absolutely has to be wired up by a licensed
electrician, and to qualify for any rebates or sell any power to the
utility it has to be an officially approved system, installed by a
licensed contractor who likewise has to have undergone training and been
State approved.

Maybe we're a whole lot smarter than you over there. I have built
several houses single handed and made major upgrades to others. This
is normal in the UK.
I was in charge of maintenence of buildings as a career. From very
large to domestic. All trades. All aspects of design.

Have look at this link. TV programme about UK self builders. Some of
the more ambitious ones.
http://www.channel4.com/4homes/on-tv/grand-designs/

On May 19, 3:19*pm, "
wrote:
On May 19, 9:36*am, JimT wrote:





On 5/19/2011 7:54 AM, Smitty Two wrote:

In article
,
* *wrote:

* * Thanks again , Henry. *I'm sure that most of those who post
here will have an interet in your first hand experience...
Count me out of any interest in Harry's babbling. How much credibility
are you going to give a guy who opines, even insists, that a grid-tie
solar system is a DIY job?

Maybe Texas is as lawless as England, but in CA anyway, you damn well
need a building permit, it absolutely has to be wired up by a licensed
electrician, and to qualify for any rebates or sell any power to the
utility it has to be an officially approved system, installed by a
licensed contractor who likewise has to have undergone training and been
State approved.

AFAIK: Here (Austin, TX) you need a bld permit and permission to tie
into the grid and that requires a licensed electrician. In addition, you
need to use one of the cities approved installers to get a $2.5/watt
rebate. Without the rebate, it just wouldn't make any sense financially..

Jim

Jim- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Good to see some sanity being introduced. *I was beginning to think
I was the only one that thought a PV install has some big issues
and isn't something a DIY person is going to figure out in an hour,
which is what harry claimed. * We also had Andy claiming it's
no more complicated than adding an accessory to a PC. *So
much for any credibility those two have.

I don't doubt that in some cases, local law permitting, you could
install one yourself. *But it would take a major investment in
learning about all the various issues involved. *And I'd start
with figuring out what implications it may have for rebates
and warranties. * Also, given that there is at least a 30%
federal tax credit available, as well as possibly other rebates
on the total system price, you're in effect getting at least
30% off the labor of a professional installer.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I can see we're just a whole lot smarter than you lot over there :-)
We don't have as much stupid beaurocrasy either by the sound sof it.

On May 19, 3:19*pm, "
wrote:
On May 19, 9:36*am, JimT wrote:





On 5/19/2011 7:54 AM, Smitty Two wrote:

In article
,
* *wrote:

* * Thanks again , Henry. *I'm sure that most of those who post
here will have an interet in your first hand experience...
Count me out of any interest in Harry's babbling. How much credibility
are you going to give a guy who opines, even insists, that a grid-tie
solar system is a DIY job?

Maybe Texas is as lawless as England, but in CA anyway, you damn well
need a building permit, it absolutely has to be wired up by a licensed
electrician, and to qualify for any rebates or sell any power to the
utility it has to be an officially approved system, installed by a
licensed contractor who likewise has to have undergone training and been
State approved.

AFAIK: Here (Austin, TX) you need a bld permit and permission to tie
into the grid and that requires a licensed electrician. In addition, you
need to use one of the cities approved installers to get a $2.5/watt
rebate. Without the rebate, it just wouldn't make any sense financially..

Jim

Jim- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Good to see some sanity being introduced. *I was beginning to think
I was the only one that thought a PV install has some big issues
and isn't something a DIY person is going to figure out in an hour,
which is what harry claimed. * We also had Andy claiming it's
no more complicated than adding an accessory to a PC. *So
much for any credibility those two have.

I don't doubt that in some cases, local law permitting, you could
install one yourself. *But it would take a major investment in
learning about all the various issues involved. *And I'd start
with figuring out what implications it may have for rebates
and warranties. * Also, given that there is at least a 30%
federal tax credit available, as well as possibly other rebates
on the total system price, you're in effect getting at least
30% off the labor of a professional installer.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You're exactly right. It's a con enable a selected minority to rip
you off.
There's one of them right here by the sounds of him.
What happened to freedom?

On May 19, 5:37*pm, Andy wrote:
On May 19, 9:31 am, JimT wrote:
Jim says:

I wouldn't go that far. :-) I'm not really sure how difficult installing
a "out-of-the-box" system would be. From what I've seen it doesn't look
that difficult.

***** I looked into this last night and found that Unisolar *includes
an
owner's manual with their solar shingles so they can easily be
installed by a layman.... Obviously, that doesn't include tying the
inverter into the grid , tho... * As a licensed EE and retired senior
principal engineer from Raytheon, I'll admit that my perspective is
different from the laymen who post here. *But the stuff we are talking
about here is stuff I could do when I was a ham operator back
in high school...... It ain't rocket surgery...if one uses an "out of
box"
system with an owner's manual ----excepting the final grid connection.
That part should be done by a professional, in my opinion, who would
also inspect the entire thing first and say whether it was safe....
and
met NEC.

I wouldn't be surprised if there is quite a bit of favoritism going on
with these "approved" installers. That sort of stuff is pretty common
here. Also, I would have to check to be sure the rebate money is
availible. The city only approved $XXX amount for the program. When I
was looking into getting a LED pool light the installers didn't want to
bother with all the city regulations. For some things it's much better
to be out of the city limits. Austin IS "weird".

Jim

****** Yes, regulations are all over the map. *Up north, where almost
everything is unionized, I suspect that union influence drives a lot
of the requirement for licensed (that means UNION) electricians and
contractors.... Not so much here in Texas. * While nobody should
dispute using experienced personnel for significant work, up in
Plano, north of Dallas, one needs a building permit to put in a
closet light, complete with electrical inspection ---- although the
homeowner is allowed to do the work.... *Actually, not really
a bad idea.... :))) * If it passes inspection, and meets NEC,
what does it matter who does the work ? *IMO

I don't doubt that in some cases, local law permitting, you could
install one yourself. *But it would take a major investment in
learning about all the various issues involved. *And I'd start
with figuring out what implications it may have for rebates
and warranties. * Also, given that there is at least a 30%
federal tax credit available, as well as possibly other rebates
on the total system price, you're in effect getting at least
30% off the labor of a professional installer.

***** *I agree completely. * Some people pride themselves on learning
* *the subject and doing the work themselves ----- others just shrug
it off and say "it's too complicated"..... *One has only to read
various
questions on alt.home.repair to conclude that some people don't have
the skill to replace a recepticle in a wall outlet..... but if they
were
shown how to do it, without getting zapped, they would no longer
hesitate...... * It just takes the comittment to learn.. *Some have
it,
some run from it.

* * * * * * * *Andy in Eureka, Texas

They are all "out of the box". The only tricky bit is that they
start to generate the moment the box is opened. Something you need to
keep in mind.

On May 19, 12:40 pm, "chaniarts" wrote:
Andy wrote:
On May 18, 1:28 pm, Kurt Ullman wrote:
In article ,

"chaniarts" wrote:

yes. i have a 7.7kw array. i just signed up with a new insurance
agent this month. when asked, they said that having a pv install
had no difference on the cost of house insurance.

That's because currently there are so few of them that it is cheaper
to pay the claims than do the extra underwriting. I expect that to
change within the next 5 years.

Andy adds:
Another think I just though of.... Most likely one has to get a
building
permit in order to have a system installed. That means that the tax
man
knows of the addition, and, since it adds to the value of the house,
the system will be taxed.... Around here the rule of thumb is that
the
yearly taxes run about 2% of the value, so that's 2% per year for the
life of the system...... and I'll bet they goose the asset value up
each
year just like they do the house......

there were both building permits from the town, and paperwork from the power
company to be able to tie into the grid. that part has to be done by an
electrician approved by the power company, who came out and inspected twice
during my install, and they were also the one to install the secondary
meter.

valuation of houses for tax purposes, in my area, go by area of the house,
area of the lot, type of nearby houses, outbuildings, pools, and general
finish compared to houses built near that time in that area. they don't
account for pv installs.

Andy in Eureka, Texas

PS to "chainiarts" ---- How much did your 7.7Kw system cost and
who is the manufacturer ? Did you get any
rebates?
Thanks.

my system 'cost' $44k. federal rebate of 30%. power company rebate of 50%.
state rebate of 2.2%. power company buyback is equal to cost (ie if i
generate 1kwh, it offsets the cost of 1kwh of grid draw). at the end of the
year, if i've generated more than usage, i get a credit for the following
year.

i am just completing 1 year of service in 2 weeks.

i have a computerized monitor on it, so have pretty complete data on it.

1.4mwh generated. highest peak is 6.7kw generated. highest daily peak is
54kwh.

my usual power bill is ~$1800/year. last 12 months it was $400, so $1400
saved. power company has filed for rate increases every year for the last 5,
and there's one to take affect this summer, so the savings will increase
every year.

payback time is about 4.5 years. without rebates, it's not financially
feasable.

Andy comments:
Wow !! Thanks for that info.....

Andy in Eureka, Texas

On May 19, 12:32 pm, Vic Smith
wrote:
On Thu, 19 May 2011 09:37:08 -0700 (PDT), Andy

wrote:

****** Yes, regulations are all over the map. Up north, where almost
everything is unionized, I suspect that union influence drives a lot
of the requirement for licensed (that means UNION) electricians and
contractors....

Doesn't work that way. Unions have contracts with businesses, not
homeowners.
I've had licensed electricians put in new services, and licensed
plumbers and HVAC do plumbing and HVAC work in my homes.
None were union.
Don't have to be union to pull a permit, just need a license.
No need to belong to a union to get licensed, though that might be a
quicker path for training in some cases.
This in Chicago and a close suburb.
BTW, when I left the Navy, U.S. Steel wanted me to serve a 5 year
apprenticeship to sponsor me for a stationary engineers license.
They paid badly, even though I was member of the Steel workers,
so I passed and found a better job.
A bit later the Seafarers union wanted a long apprenticeship as a
wiper before sponsoring me for a fireman/watertender Coast Guard
license.
Long story short, I used my Navy experience to take the CG test and
got my license before I boarded a merchant ship - at better pay..
And later, stale as I was, used the same experience to take the
stationary engineer's test and get that license.
Never used that one, or the real estate license either, as the economy
got better and I found better work.
Bottom line for all these licenses is provable experience with a
business or equivalent military.
If the business is unionized, the union gets involved in setting up
training for licensing.
But any good business should do that, union or not.
You're in a different wold if you think everything up north is
unionized. Unions are almost dead.
Still make a good bogeyman though.

--Vic

Andy writes:
I stand corrected.... I have had ZERO experience with unions with
the
exception of Raytheon, and when they bought the Texas Instruments
DOD plants in Texas (and me along with it) they tried to run the place
like they do in Massachusetts and a large number of engineers just
quit and went somewhere else...... I was only a couple years from
retirement, so I stuck it out, but God, was it a pain in the ass. It
was
like management was openly hostile to workers ---- day and night
compared to the atmosphere before Raytheon took over......

But, such is life.... I have a low opinion of unions, in their
present
state..... I'm sure they serve a purpose somewhere, but they are
not popular at all in Texas... We have a different attitude here,
apparently..

Andy in Eureka, Texas

On May 19, 1:39 pm, harry wrote:
On May 19, 1:45 pm, Andy wrote:



On May 19, 1:20 am, harry wrote:

There is a number for your area. In my case it is 830. This is the
number of Kwh generated per year per kwp installed. You need to find
out what your number is, (prob. around 1000 fir you).

**** Thanks haarry. A back of the napkin calculation says my
number is more like 1200 for Dallas (1.0 x 5.5 X 365 X 64% ), but
I'd
need to look up the specific criteria used in your number to
see if I left anything out.

Thers additionally a chart that shows % reduction in output as the
array deviates from due South and from the optimum angle (to the
ground).
My optimum angle is 35 degrees, it will be more like 10 degrees in
Texas I should think.

**** I agree. My latitude is about 36 deg N...... and I don't
remember
the sun path deviation thru the year. ( I should, since celestial
nav was once a hobby, but that was a long time ago :)) )

This is all for fixed arrays. The cost of rotators is not generally
viable.

***** Perhaps some mechanical guy will come up with something
eventually. But, in Texas, we need to practically weld the panels
to the roof since we are subject to large hail, tornadoes, and , at
the very least, high winds.... I don't think you have those
environmental variables in the UK..... On the other hand, on my
trips to south England, I don't think I've ever seen the
sun :))))))

The current technology is silocone but they are not all a like. Some
perform better in lower light conditions than others, ie in the
shoulder period. So while they have the same Kwp, they generate more
Kw because they perform better during the shoulder periods.
Most power is generated between 10.00h and 14.00h.

*** I guess you are using GMT...... Ok, that is consistent with the
cosine function I was talking about, with "local noon" being 0 deg.
The panels I used were amorphous silicon, by UniSolar. I recently
google them again, and they have some interesting new items, including
"solar shingles".... They are just lain on top of the normal
asphalt
shingle and a couple holes bored in the roof to bring two wires thru,
and the interconnection done in the attic...... It would be a bitch
to replace the roof shingles....

So you need to look at the graphs of power generated/available light.
The less"peaky" the curve the more power you get in any given day.

**** Like I mentioned, Dallas is rated at 5.5 hrs of "faverage ull
sun" per day.
For other readers, that means that the power generated is the same
as if the sun were directly overhead at optimun angle for 5.5 hours.
It averages out things like clouds but I don't think it averages out
the
sun movement and seasonal angle , and assumes a tracked array.....
I guess I need to check on that.....

A very major issue is shading. As the panels are series connected,
shade on one panel effects them all.

**** In my experimental system, I used blocking diodes and paralleled
the
output to the charge controller. Shading, in that case, applied to
individual
panels. I understand that some panels are manufactured with
"shading
diodes" to minimize this, but I don't know if they work well since
I've
never tried them...

I cut back trees on my property to overcome this problem, later in the
day in my case.

****** I live in a wilderness area with lots and lots of trees, and
the south
side of my house has some blocking. But in the afternoon, when the
sun is in the west, it's pretty clear already. Plus, I have a high ,
sloped
roof, if I were to mount it there.... Actually, that would shade the
roof a
bit more and cut down on the heat in my attic...... hmmmmm.....

** Thanks for the reply Harry. It's nice to be able to learn from
someone who
actually has an installation and has the skills to evaluate the
performance.
So I have a couple questions :
1) What is your system capacity and how much did it cost ?

My systemi s 3.88Kwp.It cost £14,500 installed (=$23.000?). I think
most stuff is cheaper in America though than here..

2) Did it meet the manufacturer's literature, or was the output
less due to "other circumstances" ???

It frequently hits or exceeds the rated output. This is apparently
normal with a new array. I t will fall back ina few weeks to rated
power apparently

3) What is the cost of electricity per kwh in your area?
( Around here , it is about 10.5 cents per kwh )

I pay around £0.12/Kwh (= $0.20/Kwh)
. However I am paid £0.41/Kwh for everything generated whether I use
it myself or export it. I get an additional £0.03/Kwh for exported
power.
All is tax free and inflation linked for 25 years.
It works out at 11.5% return on capital, which these days is a really
good deal.
The thing has been runnining for three weeks now, I have generated
530Kwh.

4) Did the cost make your real estate tax go up, and your
house insurance premium go up ?

Our tax system is different to yours. No extra taxes. Yet.
I have notified my house insurance company, they don't want any more
money. I suspect when they get their heads round the business, this
might change.

BTW,by shading I meant things like trees and chimneys casting a shadow
on the array.

(I don't know how it works in the UK, but here in Texas the

typical
yearly tax is about 2% of the appraised value of the
property and about 0.5% of the replacement value for
homeowner insurance)

Thanks again , Henry. I'm sure that most of those who post
here will have an interet in your first hand experience...

Andy in Eureka, Texas

Andy writes:
Thanks Harry. Your experience with wide ranging aspects of
buildings has put you in a good position for taking care of your
own stuff...
In the US, there are regions like New England where there is an
attitude that is radically different than in more southern states
like Texas...Only in the larger cities, like Dallas, do the
regulations
seem similar....
I live in a wilderness area about 100 miles south of Dallas, and
we don't have many restrictions. Of course, if we burn our own
house down, we have ourselves to blame :)))....

Those on this newsgroup that try to make the task sound like
some big deal have probably never heard of Heathkit, which sold
kits for homebuilders from receivers/transmitters to color televisions
for many decades. As a youth, I put togheter several kits of signal
generators and transmitters. Even a non-trained lawyer, doctor,
plumber, or dental hygienist could build their own color television
(in 1960) if they just followed the directions and checked their own
work.... That's the environment I was brought up in.... and
believe
me, a PV array is child's play compared to an NTSC color
television....
Actually, Heathkit's first kit was an airplane, which any
reasonably
intelligent bicycle mechanic could put together and fly.......It all
depends
on the integrity of the design and the completeness of the
directions...
Well, good luck and thanks again for the rundown of your
system.... It seems that you are getting a much better deal from
your government than we are over here, tho the rebates that some
posters claim are pretty good.......

However, I'll keep my 50K in the bank and pay my 10.5cents per
kwh . :))))

Andy in Eureka, Texas .

On May 19, 2:54*pm, harry wrote:
On May 19, 2:06*pm, "
wrote:





On May 19, 8:45*am, Andy wrote:

On May 19, 1:20 am, harry wrote:

There is a number for your area. *In my case it is 830. *This is the
number of Kwh generated per year per kwp installed. You need to find
out what your number is, (prob. around 1000 fir you).

**** Thanks haarry. *A back of the napkin calculation says my
number is more like 1200 for Dallas *(1.0 x 5.5 X 365 X 64% ), but
I'd
need to look up the specific criteria used in your number to
see if I left anything out.

Thers additionally a chart that shows % reduction in output as the
array deviates from due South and from the optimum angle (to the
ground).
My optimum angle is 35 degrees, it will be more like 10 degrees in
Texas I should think.

**** I agree. * My latitude is about 36 deg N...... *and I don't
remember
the sun path deviation thru the year. ( I should, since celestial
nav was once a hobby, but that was a long time ago :)) *)

This is all for fixed arrays. *The cost of rotators is not generally
viable.

***** Perhaps some mechanical guy will come up with something
eventually. But, in Texas, we need to practically weld the panels
to the roof since we are subject to large hail, tornadoes, and , at
the very least, high winds.... I don't think you have those
environmental variables in the UK..... On the other hand, on my
trips to south England, I don't think I've ever seen the
sun * :))))))

The current technology is silocone but they are not all a like. Some
perform better in lower light conditions than others, ie in the
shoulder period. *So while they have the same Kwp, they generate more
Kw because they perform better during the shoulder periods.
Most power is generated between 10.00h and 14.00h.

*** I guess you are using GMT...... Ok, that is consistent with the
cosine function I was talking about, with "local noon" being 0 deg.
The panels I used were amorphous silicon, by UniSolar. *I recently
google them again, and they have some interesting new items, including
"solar shingles".... *They are just lain on top *of the normal
asphalt
shingle and a couple holes bored in the roof to bring two wires thru,
and the interconnection done in the attic...... It would be a bitch
to replace the roof shingles....

So you need to look at the graphs of power generated/available light.

On 5/19/2011 3:21 PM, Andy wrote:
On May 19, 1:39 pm, wrote:
On May 19, 1:45 pm, wrote:



On May 19, 1:20 am, wrote:

There is a number for your area. In my case it is 830. This is the
number of Kwh generated per year per kwp installed. You need to find
out what your number is, (prob. around 1000 fir you).

**** Thanks haarry. A back of the napkin calculation says my
number is more like 1200 for Dallas (1.0 x 5.5 X 365 X 64% ), but
I'd
need to look up the specific criteria used in your number to
see if I left anything out.

Thers additionally a chart that shows % reduction in output as the
array deviates from due South and from the optimum angle (to the
ground).
My optimum angle is 35 degrees, it will be more like 10 degrees in
Texas I should think.

**** I agree. My latitude is about 36 deg N...... and I don't
remember
the sun path deviation thru the year. ( I should, since celestial
nav was once a hobby, but that was a long time ago :)) )

This is all for fixed arrays. The cost of rotators is not generally
viable.

***** Perhaps some mechanical guy will come up with something
eventually. But, in Texas, we need to practically weld the panels
to the roof since we are subject to large hail, tornadoes, and , at
the very least, high winds.... I don't think you have those
environmental variables in the UK..... On the other hand, on my
trips to south England, I don't think I've ever seen the
sun :))))))

The current technology is silocone but they are not all a like. Some
perform better in lower light conditions than others, ie in the
shoulder period. So while they have the same Kwp, they generate more
Kw because they perform better during the shoulder periods.
Most power is generated between 10.00h and 14.00h.

*** I guess you are using GMT...... Ok, that is consistent with the
cosine function I was talking about, with "local noon" being 0 deg.
The panels I used were amorphous silicon, by UniSolar. I recently
google them again, and they have some interesting new items, including
"solar shingles".... They are just lain on top of the normal
asphalt
shingle and a couple holes bored in the roof to bring two wires thru,
and the interconnection done in the attic...... It would be a bitch
to replace the roof shingles....

So you need to look at the graphs of power generated/available light.
The less"peaky" the curve the more power you get in any given day.

**** Like I mentioned, Dallas is rated at 5.5 hrs of "faverage ull
sun" per day.
For other readers, that means that the power generated is the same
as if the sun were directly overhead at optimun angle for 5.5 hours.
It averages out things like clouds but I don't think it averages out
the
sun movement and seasonal angle , and assumes a tracked array.....
I guess I need to check on that.....

A very major issue is shading. As the panels are series connected,
shade on one panel effects them all.

**** In my experimental system, I used blocking diodes and paralleled
the
output to the charge controller. Shading, in that case, applied to
individual
panels. I understand that some panels are manufactured with
"shading
diodes" to minimize this, but I don't know if they work well since
I've
never tried them...

I cut back trees on my property to overcome this problem, later in the
day in my case.

****** I live in a wilderness area with lots and lots of trees, and
the south
side of my house has some blocking. But in the afternoon, when the
sun is in the west, it's pretty clear already. Plus, I have a high ,
sloped
roof, if I were to mount it there.... Actually, that would shade the
roof a
bit more and cut down on the heat in my attic...... hmmmmm.....

** Thanks for the reply Harry. It's nice to be able to learn from
someone who
actually has an installation and has the skills to evaluate the
performance.
So I have a couple questions :
1) What is your system capacity and how much did it cost ?

My systemi s 3.88Kwp.It cost £14,500 installed (=$23.000?). I think
most stuff is cheaper in America though than here..

2) Did it meet the manufacturer's literature, or was the output
less due to "other circumstances" ???

It frequently hits or exceeds the rated output. This is apparently
normal with a new array. I t will fall back ina few weeks to rated
power apparently

3) What is the cost of electricity per kwh in your area?
( Around here , it is about 10.5 cents per kwh )

I pay around £0.12/Kwh (= $0.20/Kwh)
. However I am paid £0.41/Kwh for everything generated whether I use
it myself or export it. I get an additional £0.03/Kwh for exported
power.
All is tax free and inflation linked for 25 years.
It works out at 11.5% return on capital, which these days is a really
good deal.
The thing has been runnining for three weeks now, I have generated
530Kwh.

4) Did the cost make your real estate tax go up, and your
house insurance premium go up ?

Our tax system is different to yours. No extra taxes. Yet.
I have notified my house insurance company, they don't want any more
money. I suspect when they get their heads round the business, this
might change.

BTW,by shading I meant things like trees and chimneys casting a shadow
on the array.

(I don't know how it works in the UK, but here in Texas the

typical
yearly tax is about 2% of the appraised value of the
property and about 0.5% of the replacement value for
homeowner insurance)

Thanks again , Henry. I'm sure that most of those who post
here will have an interet in your first hand experience...

Andy in Eureka, Texas

Andy writes:
Thanks Harry. Your experience with wide ranging aspects of
buildings has put you in a good position for taking care of your
own stuff...
In the US, there are regions like New England where there is an
attitude that is radically different than in more southern states
like Texas...Only in the larger cities, like Dallas, do the
regulations
seem similar....
I live in a wilderness area about 100 miles south of Dallas, and
we don't have many restrictions. Of course, if we burn our own
house down, we have ourselves to blame :)))....

Those on this newsgroup that try to make the task sound like
some big deal have probably never heard of Heathkit, which sold
kits for homebuilders from receivers/transmitters to color televisions
for many decades. As a youth, I put togheter several kits of signal
generators and transmitters. Even a non-trained lawyer, doctor,
plumber, or dental hygienist could build their own color television
(in 1960) if they just followed the directions and checked their own
work.... That's the environment I was brought up in.... and
believe
me, a PV array is child's play compared to an NTSC color
television....
Actually, Heathkit's first kit was an airplane, which any
reasonably
intelligent bicycle mechanic could put together and fly.......It all
depends
on the integrity of the design and the completeness of the
directions...
Well, good luck and thanks again for the rundown of your
system.... It seems that you are getting a much better deal from
your government than we are over here, tho the rebates that some
posters claim are pretty good.......

However, I'll keep my 50K in the bank and pay my 10.5cents per
kwh . :))))

Andy in Eureka, Texas .

One of my aunts, a high school physics teacher, built a Heathkit stereo
amp kit back in the 1960's and had no problem with it. Heck, there was
a time you could order a complete house kit from Sears so you could
build your own home. ^_^

TDD

On May 19, 9:21*pm, Andy wrote:
On May 19, 1:39 pm, harry wrote:





On May 19, 1:45 pm, Andy wrote:

On May 19, 1:20 am, harry wrote:

There is a number for your area. *In my case it is 830. *This is the
number of Kwh generated per year per kwp installed. You need to find
out what your number is, (prob. around 1000 fir you).

**** Thanks haarry. *A back of the napkin calculation says my
number is more like 1200 for Dallas *(1.0 x 5.5 X 365 X 64% ), but
I'd
need to look up the specific criteria used in your number to
see if I left anything out.

Thers additionally a chart that shows % reduction in output as the
array deviates from due South and from the optimum angle (to the
ground).
My optimum angle is 35 degrees, it will be more like 10 degrees in
Texas I should think.

**** I agree. * My latitude is about 36 deg N...... *and I don't
remember
the sun path deviation thru the year. ( I should, since celestial
nav was once a hobby, but that was a long time ago :)) *)

This is all for fixed arrays. *The cost of rotators is not generally
viable.

***** Perhaps some mechanical guy will come up with something
eventually. But, in Texas, we need to practically weld the panels
to the roof since we are subject to large hail, tornadoes, and , at
the very least, high winds.... I don't think you have those
environmental variables in the UK..... On the other hand, on my
trips to south England, I don't think I've ever seen the
sun * :))))))

The current technology is silocone but they are not all a like. Some
perform better in lower light conditions than others, ie in the
shoulder period. *So while they have the same Kwp, they generate more
Kw because they perform better during the shoulder periods.
Most power is generated between 10.00h and 14.00h.

*** I guess you are using GMT...... Ok, that is consistent with the
cosine function I was talking about, with "local noon" being 0 deg.
The panels I used were amorphous silicon, by UniSolar. *I recently
google them again, and they have some interesting new items, including
"solar shingles".... *They are just lain on top *of the normal
asphalt
shingle and a couple holes bored in the roof to bring two wires thru,
and the interconnection done in the attic...... It would be a bitch
to replace the roof shingles....

So you need to look at the graphs of power generated/available light.

On May 20, 5:57*am, The Daring Dufas
wrote:
On 5/19/2011 3:21 PM, Andy wrote:





On May 19, 1:39 pm, *wrote:
On May 19, 1:45 pm, *wrote:

On May 19, 1:20 am, *wrote:

There is a number for your area. *In my case it is 830. *This is the
number of Kwh generated per year per kwp installed. You need to find
out what your number is, (prob. around 1000 fir you).

**** Thanks haarry. *A back of the napkin calculation says my
number is more like 1200 for Dallas *(1.0 x 5.5 X 365 X 64% ), but
I'd
need to look up the specific criteria used in your number to
see if I left anything out.

Thers additionally a chart that shows % reduction in output as the
array deviates from due South and from the optimum angle (to the
ground).
My optimum angle is 35 degrees, it will be more like 10 degrees in
Texas I should think.

**** I agree. * My latitude is about 36 deg N...... *and I don't
remember
the sun path deviation thru the year. ( I should, since celestial
nav was once a hobby, but that was a long time ago :)) *)

This is all for fixed arrays. *The cost of rotators is not generally
viable.

***** Perhaps some mechanical guy will come up with something
eventually. But, in Texas, we need to practically weld the panels
to the roof since we are subject to large hail, tornadoes, and , at
the very least, high winds.... I don't think you have those
environmental variables in the UK..... On the other hand, on my
trips to south England, I don't think I've ever seen the
sun * :))))))

The current technology is silocone but they are not all a like. Some
perform better in lower light conditions than others, ie in the
shoulder period. *So while they have the same Kwp, they generate more
Kw because they perform better during the shoulder periods.
Most power is generated between 10.00h and 14.00h.

*** I guess you are using GMT...... Ok, that is consistent with the
cosine function I was talking about, with "local noon" being 0 deg.
The panels I used were amorphous silicon, by UniSolar. *I recently
google them again, and they have some interesting new items, including
"solar shingles".... *They are just lain on top *of the normal
asphalt
shingle and a couple holes bored in the roof to bring two wires thru,
and the interconnection done in the attic...... It would be a bitch
to replace the roof shingles....

So you need to look at the graphs of power generated/available light..
The less"peaky" the curve the more power you get in any given day.

**** Like I mentioned, Dallas is rated at 5.5 hrs of "faverage ull
sun" per day.
For other readers, that means that the power generated is the same
as if the sun were directly overhead at optimun angle for 5.5 hours.
It averages out things like clouds but I don't think it averages out
the
sun movement and seasonal angle , and assumes a tracked array.....
* I guess I need to check on that.....

A very major issue is shading. *As the panels are series connected,
shade on one panel effects them all.

**** *In my experimental system, I used blocking diodes and paralleled
the
output to the charge controller. Shading, in that case, applied to
individual
panels. * I understand that some panels are manufactured with
"shading
diodes" to minimize this, *but I don't know if they work well since
I've
never tried them...

I cut back trees on my property to overcome this problem, later in the
day in my case.

****** I live in a wilderness area with lots and lots of trees, and
the south
side of my house has some blocking. But in the afternoon, when the
sun is in the west, it's pretty clear already. *Plus, I have a high ,
sloped
roof, if I were to mount it there.... Actually, that would shade the
roof a
bit more and cut down on the heat in my attic...... hmmmmm.....

** Thanks for the reply Harry. *It's nice to be able to learn from
someone who
actually has an installation and has the skills to evaluate the
performance.
So I have a couple questions :
* 1) What is your system capacity and how much did it cost ?

My systemi s 3.88Kwp.It cost £14,500 installed (=$23.000?). I think
most stuff is cheaper in America though than here..

* 2) Did it meet the manufacturer's literature, or was the output
* * * less due to "other circumstances" *???

It frequently hits or exceeds the rated output. This is apparently
normal with a new array. I t will fall back ina *few weeks to rated
power apparently

* 3) What is the cost of electricity per kwh in your area?
* * * *( Around here , it is about 10.5 cents per kwh )

I pay around *£0.12/Kwh (= $0.20/Kwh)
. However I am paid £0.41/Kwh for everything generated whether I use
it myself or export it. *I get an additional £0.03/Kwh for exported
power.
All is tax free and inflation linked for 25 years.
It works out at 11.5% return on capital, which these days is a really
good deal.
The thing has been runnining for three weeks now, *I have generated
530Kwh.

* 4) *Did the cost make your real estate tax go up, and your
* * * *house insurance premium go up ?

Our tax system is different to yours. No extra taxes. *Yet.
* I have notified my house insurance company, they don't want any more
money. *I suspect when they get their heads round the business, this
might change.

BTW,by shading I meant things like trees and chimneys casting a shadow
on the array.

* * * * *(I don't know how it works in the UK, but here in Texas the

typical
* * * * * *yearly tax is about 2% of the appraised value of the
* * * * * *property and about 0.5% of the replacement value for
* * * * * *homeowner insurance)

* * Thanks again , Henry. *I'm sure that most of those who post
here will have an interet in your first hand experience...

* * * * * * * * * * * *Andy in Eureka, Texas

Andy writes:
* * * *Thanks Harry. *Your experience with wide ranging aspects of
buildings has put you in a good position for taking care of your
own stuff...
* * * In the US, there are regions like New England where there is an
attitude that is radically different than in more southern states
like Texas...Only in the larger cities, like Dallas, do the
regulations
seem similar....
* * I live in a wilderness area about 100 miles south of Dallas, and
we don't have many restrictions. *Of course, if we burn our own
house down, we have ourselves to blame *:)))....

* *Those on this newsgroup that try to make the task sound like
some big deal have probably never heard of Heathkit, which sold
kits for homebuilders from receivers/transmitters to color televisions
for many decades. *As a youth, I put togheter several kits of signal
generators and transmitters. *Even a non-trained lawyer, doctor,
plumber, or dental hygienist could build their own color television
(in 1960) if they just followed the directions and checked their own
work.... *That's the environment I was brought up *in.... * and
believe
me, a PV array is *child's play compared to an NTSC color
television....
* * * Actually, Heathkit's first kit was an airplane, which any
reasonably
intelligent bicycle mechanic could put together and fly.......It all
depends
on the integrity of the design and the completeness of the
directions...
* * * Well, good luck and thanks again for the rundown of your
system.... *It seems that you are getting a much better deal from
your government than we are over here, tho the rebates that some
posters claim are pretty good.......

* * *However, I'll keep my 50K in the bank and pay my 10.5cents per
kwh *. * :))))

* * * * * * * * * * Andy in Eureka, Texas .

One of my aunts, a high school physics teacher, built a Heathkit stereo
amp kit back in the 1960's and had no problem with it. Heck, there was
a time you could order a complete house kit from Sears so you could
build your own home. ^_^

TDD- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You're right Duf. They can still be bought over here. I have a
neighbour who bought a traditional oakframed "black&white" house and
erected it.
I haven't seen any electronics kits lately except educational kits for
schoolkids.

I too built amplifiers, "Mullard valves" used to publish a book of
construction projects which I worked through. Ah the smell of hot
solder! Triodes. Pentodes. Double diodes. :-)
"Radiospares" has become "RS components" and sells trash these days.

You could also borrow chemistry books from the local library that told
you how to build fireworks and bombs. Constituents availble from
your local Chemist shop, no questions asked. No longer true, these
Pakis have a lot to answer for.

You never see kids working on cars these days either.

Ah, what useless wimps todays kids are. Now becoming adults it seems.