I installed some X10 components today and have some issues.

First, it's interesting that the specs for the MS16A Wireless Motion
Sensor given on the X10 site make no mention of the transmission
range. Wouldn't you think that that is a pretty important number to
know?

http://www.x10.com/products/x10_ms16a.htm

However, you can find them here and they state the transmission range
is 100'.

http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/MS16A

Using the test buttons on the sensor, I can trigger an RR501 receiver
consistently within 40', intermittently within 40' - 50' and not at
all above 50' - and that's with nothing obstructing the line of site
between the two units.

Put a garage wall between them, and I'm limited to a max of about 25',
less than 15' in some locations.

I've tried 2 different MS16A units and 2 different RR501's and got the
same results. Yes, they were brand new batteries. I even tested them
to eliminate the batteries as the problem.

Next issue: When using the dimmer feature of the WS4777 3-way switch
or WS467 single switch, the bulbs do not dim to nothing. You can still
see the light in a 65W outdoor spot even when the sun is up. I don't
know how often I'd want to dim them to nothing, but I'm just wondering
if that is normal.

Lastly (for now) I seemed to get inconsistant operation of the system
when the RR501 were plugged into GFCI outlets. They seemed to work
about 90% of the time, but every now and then the test buttons on the
sensors wouldn't do anything even if I was standing right in front of
the RR501. If I move the RR501 to a standard receptacle it starts
working again. I tried two different GFCI's and got the same result.
What's up with that?

If this is normal operation, then I'm going to be very limited as to
where I place my sensors since I appear to be restricted by both
distance and receptacle type.

My new toys aren't making me happy!

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
I installed some X10 components today and have some issues.

First, it's interesting that the specs for the MS16A Wireless Motion
Sensor given on the X10 site make no mention of the transmission
range. Wouldn't you think that that is a pretty important number to
know?

http://www.x10.com/products/x10_ms16a.htm

However, you can find them here and they state the transmission range
is 100'.

http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/MS16A

Using the test buttons on the sensor, I can trigger an RR501 receiver
consistently within 40', intermittently within 40' - 50' and not at
all above 50' - and that's with nothing obstructing the line of site
between the two units.

Put a garage wall between them, and I'm limited to a max of about 25',
less than 15' in some locations.

I've tried 2 different MS16A units and 2 different RR501's and got the
same results. Yes, they were brand new batteries. I even tested them
to eliminate the batteries as the problem.

Next issue: When using the dimmer feature of the WS4777 3-way switch
or WS467 single switch, the bulbs do not dim to nothing. You can still
see the light in a 65W outdoor spot even when the sun is up. I don't
know how often I'd want to dim them to nothing, but I'm just wondering
if that is normal.

Lastly (for now) I seemed to get inconsistant operation of the system
when the RR501 were plugged into GFCI outlets. They seemed to work
about 90% of the time, but every now and then the test buttons on the
sensors wouldn't do anything even if I was standing right in front of
the RR501. If I move the RR501 to a standard receptacle it starts
working again. I tried two different GFCI's and got the same result.
What's up with that?

If this is normal operation, then I'm going to be very limited as to
where I place my sensors since I appear to be restricted by both
distance and receptacle type.

My new toys aren't making me happy!

"Toys" being the optimum word

On 9/18/2010 5:39 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
I installed some X10 components today and have some issues.

First, it's interesting that the specs for the MS16A Wireless Motion
Sensor given on the X10 site make no mention of the transmission
range. Wouldn't you think that that is a pretty important number to
know?

http://www.x10.com/products/x10_ms16a.htm

However, you can find them here and they state the transmission range
is 100'.

http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/MS16A

Using the test buttons on the sensor, I can trigger an RR501 receiver
consistently within 40', intermittently within 40' - 50' and not at
all above 50' - and that's with nothing obstructing the line of site
between the two units.

Put a garage wall between them, and I'm limited to a max of about 25',
less than 15' in some locations.


Those receivers are pretty much a novelty item. I responded in your
earlier thread that I experienced the same thing. I installed the
extended range receiver or whatever it is called and it can hear the
little key fob unit from 250' away.


I've tried 2 different MS16A units and 2 different RR501's and got the
same results. Yes, they were brand new batteries. I even tested them
to eliminate the batteries as the problem.


See above.

Next issue: When using the dimmer feature of the WS4777 3-way switch
or WS467 single switch, the bulbs do not dim to nothing. You can still
see the light in a 65W outdoor spot even when the sun is up. I don't
know how often I'd want to dim them to nothing, but I'm just wondering
if that is normal.

Lastly (for now) I seemed to get inconsistant operation of the system
when the RR501 were plugged into GFCI outlets. They seemed to work
about 90% of the time, but every now and then the test buttons on the
sensors wouldn't do anything even if I was standing right in front of
the RR501. If I move the RR501 to a standard receptacle it starts
working again. I tried two different GFCI's and got the same result.
What's up with that?


If this is normal operation, then I'm going to be very limited as to
where I place my sensors since I appear to be restricted by both
distance and receptacle type.

My new toys aren't making me happy!

On Sep 18, 4:39*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
I installed some X10 components today and have some issues.

First, it's interesting that the specs for the MS16A Wireless Motion
Sensor given on the X10 site make no mention of the transmission
range. Wouldn't you think that that is a pretty important number to
know?

http://www.x10.com/products/x10_ms16a.htm

However, you can find them here and they state the transmission range
is 100'.

http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/MS16A

Using the test buttons on the sensor, I can trigger an RR501 receiver
consistently within 40', intermittently within 40' - 50' and not at
all above 50' - and that's with nothing obstructing the line of site
between the two units.

Put a garage wall between them, and I'm limited to a max of about 25',
less than 15' in some locations.

I've tried 2 different MS16A units and 2 different RR501's and got the
same results. Yes, they were brand new batteries. I even tested them
to eliminate the batteries as the problem.

Next issue: When using the dimmer feature of the WS4777 3-way switch
or WS467 single switch, the bulbs do not dim to nothing. You can still
see the light in a 65W outdoor spot even when the sun is up. I don't
know how often I'd want to dim them to nothing, but I'm just wondering
if that is normal.

Lastly (for now) I seemed to get inconsistant operation of the system
when the RR501 were plugged into GFCI outlets. They seemed to work
about 90% of the time, but every now and then the test buttons on the
sensors wouldn't do anything even if I was standing right in front of
the RR501. If I move the RR501 to a standard receptacle it starts
working again. I tried two different GFCI's and got the same result.
What's up with that?

If this is normal operation, then I'm going to be very limited as to
where I place my sensors since I appear to be restricted by both
distance and receptacle type.

My new toys aren't making me happy!

They stretch specs a bit, like a mile stretched. Im suprised it works
at all with a gfi, I would not use it with a gfi. Internal wiring
makes a big difference even a different socket in the same room can
often fix an issue. Their stuf works "most" of the time, I would never
want an x10 alarm system.

On Sat, 18 Sep 2010 14:39:50 -0700, DerbyDad03 wrote:

I installed some X10 components today and have some issues.

[snip]

If this is normal operation, then I'm going to be very limited as to
where I place my sensors since I appear to be restricted by both
distance and receptacle type.

My new toys aren't making me happy!

X10 is like that. Very useful in some situations. Very annoying in others.

--
98 days until The winter celebration (Saturday December 25, 2010
12:00:00 AM).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

"Where there are humans you'll find flies, and Buddhas." --Issa

"RBM" wrote in message
...

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
I installed some X10 components today and have some issues.

description of several common X-10 issue snipped

My new toys aren't making me happy!

"Toys" being the optimum word

That's only partly true. X-10 gear has the "potential" to be the backbone
of a highly reliably, very powerful (and best yet, surprisingly inexpensive)
home automation system. Many people use it quite successfully. But not the
way it comes from the factory.

Straight out of the box it's often a confusing, bedeviling, exasperating
experience in: "WHY!!!?" Depending on what you bought, it can be: Why
doesn't it work like they say? Why doesn't it work like I expect it to? Why
doesn't it work at all? Or, the worst of all, why is it smoking like that?

With a little help, you can almost alway find a way to use it out of the box
to turn on or off ONE problem light. X-10, however, scales badly and the
more devices you add, the dicier things get for a number of different
reasons, too detailed to go into here.

The X-10 concept is great. You can turn OFF or ON all the lights in the
house or flash them. There's no faster way for the cops or EMS to find you
when they're running down a street that to look for the house that's
flashing all its lights. It's an attention getter.

Better still, it's cheap because the patent expired and it's managed to
become a standard, with units built by many makers and robust price and
feature competition.

But (and it's a Neicy Nash sized but) it was designed for the electrical
"grid" found in the houses of 1970 when you might not find a single switch
mode power supply outside of a laboratory. Now, every little battery
charger made is a switch mode power supply.

X-10 RF was designed a little later, but essentially for the RF environment
of those days and a lot has changed. They've always lied about their 100 ft
range. Between two perfectly tuned devices, out in the middle of the ocean
away from the radio noise of the big city -- maybe, but X-10 is
mass-manufactured, not hand-tuned. The frequency match between devices is
often quite poor and you can get RF failure in a plaster/lath house in as
little as 10 feet. Hence the name X-10. sarcasm alert - not true fact

To make it a workable solution, as George has suggested, you need to "boost"
the basic specs of X-10. I believe he's using the WGL All Housecode
transceiver.

http://www.wgldesigns.com/

Specifically:

http://www.wgldesigns.com/v572.html

This unit has a far superior RF receiver, compared to stock X-10 gear, and
most importantly allows for connection to an external antenna. X-10's
designs, IIRC, use capacitance-coupled antennas and present a serious shock
hazard if standard attempts are made to improve its (pitiful) range.

Stock X-10 may be enough for a lot of people, but to turn X-10 into a "when
I push the button, I know the light will go out 99% of the time (or better)"
then you also need Jeff Volp's product, the XTB-IIR.

http://jvde.us/xtb_index.htm

This is a repeating amplifier (among many other things) that takes the
average 5V output of the X-10 signal over the powerline and boosts it up to
around 25V. Hence the name XTB (X-10 Transmission Booster - true fact). No
X-10 installation larger than "toy" or "one attic light on a pull chain"
should be without it, but I'm guessing maybe half a million are. With all
the cheap plug-in chargers in the world that leak RF onto the powerlines (or
worse, block it AND the X-10 signal from propagating), it's only a matter of
time before stock X-10 users begin experiencing intermittent "ghost"
failures: those annoying, middle of the night activations that are so
incredibly annoying and have very low SAF. Or it will come in the form of
lights that just refuse to be controlled remotely. Or at all.

With the XTB gear, "I press the button and the light goes on." Anyone with
a twitchy X-10 system knows what a serious endorsement that is. I can find
fault with almost any product, but this one's only fault is that it needs to
be installed in a box next to the main circuit panel and wired to each phase
of the 240VAC service via a tandem breaker. For about 90% of the people
here, though, that's probably not a problem. He's even got gear that can
help without needing serious changes to the main circuit panel.

Disclaimer: No financial interest in either company, just a deliriously
happy user of both. I figure they've saved me over $3,000 in not having to
change over to a more expensive, more limited AND proprietary protocol like
Insteon or Z-wave.

--
Bobby G.

On Sep 18, 4:39*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
I installed some X10 components today and have some issues.

First, it's interesting that the specs for the MS16A Wireless Motion
Sensor given on the X10 site make no mention of the transmission
range. Wouldn't you think that that is a pretty important number to
know?

http://www.x10.com/products/x10_ms16a.htm

However, you can find them here and they state the transmission range
is 100'.

http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/MS16A

Using the test buttons on the sensor, I can trigger an RR501 receiver
consistently within 40', intermittently within 40' - 50' and not at
all above 50' - and that's with nothing obstructing the line of site
between the two units.

Put a garage wall between them, and I'm limited to a max of about 25',
less than 15' in some locations.

I've tried 2 different MS16A units and 2 different RR501's and got the
same results. Yes, they were brand new batteries. I even tested them
to eliminate the batteries as the problem.

Next issue: When using the dimmer feature of the WS4777 3-way switch
or WS467 single switch, the bulbs do not dim to nothing. You can still
see the light in a 65W outdoor spot even when the sun is up. I don't
know how often I'd want to dim them to nothing, but I'm just wondering
if that is normal.

Lastly (for now) I seemed to get inconsistant operation of the system
when the RR501 were plugged into GFCI outlets. They seemed to work
about 90% of the time, but every now and then the test buttons on the
sensors wouldn't do anything even if I was standing right in front of
the RR501. If I move the RR501 to a standard receptacle it starts
working again. I tried two different GFCI's and got the same result.
What's up with that?

If this is normal operation, then I'm going to be very limited as to
where I place my sensors since I appear to be restricted by both
distance and receptacle type.

My new toys aren't making me happy!


X10 is 1970's technology literally, there are many other far superior
powerline and RF based mesh network devices available these days. X10
is a toy. Smarthome Insteon or the Lutron devices are very reliable,
especially the ones that are dual band, sending the commands
simultaneously over RF and the powerline, and every device in these
mesh networks becomes a repeater making it even more reliable. Not
much cost difference either over X10, but you get what you pay for. I
remember doing the X10 experiment board projects from Popular
Electronics magazine around 1973 or so, it was impressive then, but by
todays standard it is a toy. X10 signals are easily sucked off the
powerline by the filters in all the electronic devices on the
powerline in standby mode, TV's, receivers, UPS backups, computers,
X10 has a hard time competing with those as they filter noise,
including your X10 signal. Then you have the perpetual issue of
bridging tthe signal to devices on the other phase without an amp,
repeater or passive bridge.

On Sep 18, 4:39*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
I installed some X10 components today and have some issues.

First, it's interesting that the specs for the MS16A Wireless Motion
Sensor given on the X10 site make no mention of the transmission
range. Wouldn't you think that that is a pretty important number to
know?

http://www.x10.com/products/x10_ms16a.htm

However, you can find them here and they state the transmission range
is 100'.

http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/MS16A

Using the test buttons on the sensor, I can trigger an RR501 receiver
consistently within 40', intermittently within 40' - 50' and not at
all above 50' - and that's with nothing obstructing the line of site
between the two units.

Put a garage wall between them, and I'm limited to a max of about 25',
less than 15' in some locations.

I've tried 2 different MS16A units and 2 different RR501's and got the
same results. Yes, they were brand new batteries. I even tested them
to eliminate the batteries as the problem.

Next issue: When using the dimmer feature of the WS4777 3-way switch
or WS467 single switch, the bulbs do not dim to nothing. You can still
see the light in a 65W outdoor spot even when the sun is up. I don't
know how often I'd want to dim them to nothing, but I'm just wondering
if that is normal.

Lastly (for now) I seemed to get inconsistant operation of the system
when the RR501 were plugged into GFCI outlets. They seemed to work
about 90% of the time, but every now and then the test buttons on the
sensors wouldn't do anything even if I was standing right in front of
the RR501. If I move the RR501 to a standard receptacle it starts
working again. I tried two different GFCI's and got the same result.
What's up with that?

If this is normal operation, then I'm going to be very limited as to
where I place my sensors since I appear to be restricted by both
distance and receptacle type.

My new toys aren't making me happy!

The older 2 wire X10 devices keep some current flowing through the
filament all the time. The latest non-X10 devices all use a neutral
and completly un-power the bulb at fully dim or off.

On Sep 18, 10:54*pm, "Robert Green"
wrote:
"RBM" wrote in message

...



"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
....
I installed some X10 components today and have some issues.

description of several common X-10 issue snipped

My new toys aren't making me happy!

"Toys" being the optimum word

That's only partly true. *X-10 gear has the "potential" to be the backbone
of a highly reliably, very powerful (and best yet, surprisingly inexpensive)
home automation system. *Many people use it quite successfully. *But not the
way it comes from the factory.

Straight out of the box it's often a confusing, bedeviling, exasperating
experience in: "WHY!!!?" *Depending on what you bought, it can be: Why
doesn't it work like they say? *Why doesn't it work like I expect it to? Why
doesn't it work at all? *Or, the worst of all, why is it smoking like that?

With a little help, you can almost alway find a way to use it out of the box
to turn on or off ONE problem light. *X-10, however, scales badly and the
more devices you add, the dicier things get for a number of different
reasons, too detailed to go into here.

The X-10 concept is great. *You can turn OFF or ON all the lights in the
house or flash them. *There's no faster way for the cops or EMS to find you
when they're running down a street that to look for the house that's
flashing all its lights. *It's an attention getter.

Better still, it's cheap because the patent expired and it's managed to
become a standard, with units built by many makers and robust price and
feature competition.

But (and it's a Neicy Nash sized but) it was designed for the electrical
"grid" found in the houses of 1970 when you might not find a single switch
mode power supply outside of a laboratory. *Now, every little battery
charger made is a switch mode power supply.

X-10 RF was designed a little later, but essentially for the RF environment
of those days and a lot has changed. *They've always lied about their 100 ft
range. *Between two perfectly tuned devices, out in the middle of the ocean
away from the radio noise of the big city -- maybe, but X-10 is
mass-manufactured, not hand-tuned. *The frequency match between devices is
often quite poor and you can get RF failure in a plaster/lath house in as
little as 10 feet. *Hence the name X-10. *sarcasm alert - not true fact

To make it a workable solution, as George has suggested, you need to "boost"
the basic specs of X-10. *I believe he's using the WGL All Housecode
transceiver.

http://www.wgldesigns.com/

Specifically:

http://www.wgldesigns.com/v572.html

This unit has a far superior RF receiver, compared to stock X-10 gear, and
most importantly allows for connection to an external antenna. *X-10's
designs, IIRC, use capacitance-coupled antennas and present a serious shock
hazard if standard attempts are made to improve its (pitiful) range.

Stock X-10 may be enough for a lot of people, but to turn X-10 into a "when
I push the button, I know the light will go out 99% of the time (or better)"
then you also need Jeff Volp's product, the XTB-IIR.

http://jvde.us/xtb_index.htm

This is a repeating amplifier (among many other things) that takes the
average 5V output of the X-10 signal over the powerline and boosts it up to
around 25V. *Hence the name XTB (X-10 Transmission Booster - true fact).. No
X-10 installation larger than "toy" or "one attic light on a pull chain"
should be without it, but I'm guessing maybe half a million are. *With all
the cheap plug-in chargers in the world that leak RF onto the powerlines (or
worse, block it AND the X-10 signal from propagating), it's only a matter of
time before stock X-10 users begin experiencing intermittent "ghost"
failures: *those annoying, middle of the night activations that are so
incredibly annoying and have very low SAF. *Or it will come in the form of
lights that just refuse to be controlled remotely. *Or at all.

With the XTB gear, "I press the button and the light goes on." *Anyone with
a twitchy X-10 system knows what a serious endorsement that is. *I can find
fault with almost any product, but this one's only fault is that it needs to
be installed in a box next to the main circuit panel and wired to each phase
of the 240VAC service via a tandem breaker. *For about 90% of the people
here, though, that's probably not a problem. *He's even got gear that can
help without needing serious changes to the main circuit panel.

Disclaimer: No financial interest in either company, just a deliriously
happy user of both. *I figure they've saved me over $3,000 in not having to
change over to a more expensive, more limited AND proprietary protocol like
Insteon or Z-wave.

--
Bobby G.

My cfls blink when off with x10 modules but not the x 10 exterior
motion lights that use a relay, [ I use 12 cfls outside on 3 motion
sensors] can I use Insteon modules and mix them into an x10 set up for
cfls. I just got an iphone and downloaded the Free Insteon app, the
x10 app is 10 bucks. But X10 told me I need their remote controller to
go through the computer, but I think from what I read the Insteon
controller will run without a computer. I would like to upgrade my x10
stuff to run off my iphone without leaving my computer on, It goes
into standby when im not using it. Do you have any suggestions on
this, where can I read up on and learn about what you have posted
about x10 and insteon. I like x10, ive had 3 exterior motion sensors
communicating whith each other and interior control pads since maybe
1986, I like the stuff but its not 100% reliable. After reading what
you said about Insteon, maybe I could integrate a few of their
modules. The iphone idea as a controller is what I really like.

On Sep 19, 12:20*am, RickH wrote:
On Sep 18, 4:39*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:





I installed some X10 components today and have some issues.

First, it's interesting that the specs for the MS16A Wireless Motion
Sensor given on the X10 site make no mention of the transmission
range. Wouldn't you think that that is a pretty important number to
know?

http://www.x10.com/products/x10_ms16a.htm

However, you can find them here and they state the transmission range
is 100'.

http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/MS16A

Using the test buttons on the sensor, I can trigger an RR501 receiver
consistently within 40', intermittently within 40' - 50' and not at
all above 50' - and that's with nothing obstructing the line of site
between the two units.

Put a garage wall between them, and I'm limited to a max of about 25',
less than 15' in some locations.

I've tried 2 different MS16A units and 2 different RR501's and got the
same results. Yes, they were brand new batteries. I even tested them
to eliminate the batteries as the problem.

Next issue: When using the dimmer feature of the WS4777 3-way switch
or WS467 single switch, the bulbs do not dim to nothing. You can still
see the light in a 65W outdoor spot even when the sun is up. I don't
know how often I'd want to dim them to nothing, but I'm just wondering
if that is normal.

Lastly (for now) I seemed to get inconsistant operation of the system
when the RR501 were plugged into GFCI outlets. They seemed to work
about 90% of the time, but every now and then the test buttons on the
sensors wouldn't do anything even if I was standing right in front of
the RR501. If I move the RR501 to a standard receptacle it starts
working again. I tried two different GFCI's and got the same result.
What's up with that?

If this is normal operation, then I'm going to be very limited as to
where I place my sensors since I appear to be restricted by both
distance and receptacle type.

My new toys aren't making me happy!

The older 2 wire X10 devices keep some current flowing through the
filament all the time. *The latest non-X10 devices all use a neutral
and completly un-power the bulb at fully dim or off.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Contrary to the claims of it being a toy, I have been using
essentially the same X10 settup Derby is attempting for 2 years.
It's used to turn on lights outside the garage when motion is detected
and to turn the front door lights on at dusk and off at dawn. All
that is done with the outdoor motion detector, the wireless
transceiver, and two wall switches.

Some key differences:

The transceiver is located at an outlet in the garage which is only
about 5 feet away from the outdoor motion sensor. Had I known Derby
wanted to use it at ranges greater than 50ft, I would have said that I
doubt it is capable of those ranges. The initial application we were
talking about was to turn front door lights on/off with a motion
detector. Nothing about that suggested the need for a long range.
Also, with outlets being everywhere, for most apps I would think you'd
have an outlet available for the transceiver to plug in that is not
too far away and with only one wall seperation. I do agree that they
should make the specs and limitations on distance better known. But
those limitations aren't unique to X10 and exist with a lot of
wireless devices, let alone one that cost $10.

Regarding GFCI, I'll have to check on that. The transceiver is
plugged into a garage outlet, which I assume would be on a GFCI
circuit and it works. But, I'll confirm that. The switches and
modules are all plugged into standard outlets.

I'll also check the dimming feature, which I never use. My suspicion
is that it's just the way it's designed, ie you can't dim it beyond a
certain point.

I also use X10 with their controller/timer unit to turn 3 lights
around the house on/off when I'm away. It's done that fine. The
only issue I had was getting the correct modules that will work with
CFL. Is it 100% reliable? No. But it's certainly been reliable for
the applications I'm using it for. And considering the cost, I think
a good solution.

On 9/18/2010 11:54 PM, Robert Green wrote:
wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
I installed some X10 components today and have some issues.

description of several common X-10 issue snipped

My new toys aren't making me happy!

"Toys" being the optimum word

That's only partly true. X-10 gear has the "potential" to be the backbone
of a highly reliably, very powerful (and best yet, surprisingly inexpensive)
home automation system. Many people use it quite successfully. But not the
way it comes from the factory.

If I were doing anything more than simple or simply wanted it to work
without tinkering I would just go with insteon. Some friends tried whole
house automation with X-10 and it does take a huge amount of TLC.


Straight out of the box it's often a confusing, bedeviling, exasperating
experience in: "WHY!!!?" Depending on what you bought, it can be: Why
doesn't it work like they say? Why doesn't it work like I expect it to? Why
doesn't it work at all? Or, the worst of all, why is it smoking like that?

With a little help, you can almost alway find a way to use it out of the box
to turn on or off ONE problem light. X-10, however, scales badly and the
more devices you add, the dicier things get for a number of different
reasons, too detailed to go into here.

The X-10 concept is great. You can turn OFF or ON all the lights in the
house or flash them. There's no faster way for the cops or EMS to find you
when they're running down a street that to look for the house that's
flashing all its lights. It's an attention getter.

Better still, it's cheap because the patent expired and it's managed to
become a standard, with units built by many makers and robust price and
feature competition.

But (and it's a Neicy Nash sized but) it was designed for the electrical
"grid" found in the houses of 1970 when you might not find a single switch
mode power supply outside of a laboratory. Now, every little battery
charger made is a switch mode power supply.

X-10 RF was designed a little later, but essentially for the RF environment
of those days and a lot has changed. They've always lied about their 100 ft
range. Between two perfectly tuned devices, out in the middle of the ocean
away from the radio noise of the big city -- maybe, but X-10 is
mass-manufactured, not hand-tuned. The frequency match between devices is
often quite poor and you can get RF failure in a plaster/lath house in as
little as 10 feet. Hence the name X-10.sarcasm alert - not true fact

To make it a workable solution, as George has suggested, you need to "boost"
the basic specs of X-10. I believe he's using the WGL All Housecode
transceiver.

That is it. I forgot what it was because I simply plugged it in and
never had to look back because it works so well.


http://www.wgldesigns.com/

Specifically:

http://www.wgldesigns.com/v572.html

This unit has a far superior RF receiver, compared to stock X-10 gear, and
most importantly allows for connection to an external antenna. X-10's
designs, IIRC, use capacitance-coupled antennas and present a serious shock
hazard if standard attempts are made to improve its (pitiful) range.

Stock X-10 may be enough for a lot of people, but to turn X-10 into a "when
I push the button, I know the light will go out 99% of the time (or better)"
then you also need Jeff Volp's product, the XTB-IIR.

http://jvde.us/xtb_index.htm

This is a repeating amplifier (among many other things) that takes the
average 5V output of the X-10 signal over the powerline and boosts it up to
around 25V. Hence the name XTB (X-10 Transmission Booster - true fact). No
X-10 installation larger than "toy" or "one attic light on a pull chain"
should be without it, but I'm guessing maybe half a million are. With all
the cheap plug-in chargers in the world that leak RF onto the powerlines (or
worse, block it AND the X-10 signal from propagating), it's only a matter of
time before stock X-10 users begin experiencing intermittent "ghost"
failures: those annoying, middle of the night activations that are so
incredibly annoying and have very low SAF. Or it will come in the form of
lights that just refuse to be controlled remotely. Or at all.

With the XTB gear, "I press the button and the light goes on." Anyone with
a twitchy X-10 system knows what a serious endorsement that is. I can find
fault with almost any product, but this one's only fault is that it needs to
be installed in a box next to the main circuit panel and wired to each phase
of the 240VAC service via a tandem breaker. For about 90% of the people
here, though, that's probably not a problem. He's even got gear that can
help without needing serious changes to the main circuit panel.

Disclaimer: No financial interest in either company, just a deliriously
happy user of both. I figure they've saved me over $3,000 in not having to
change over to a more expensive, more limited AND proprietary protocol like
Insteon or Z-wave.

--
Bobby G.

On Sep 19, 7:34*am, wrote:
On Sep 19, 12:20*am, RickH wrote:





On Sep 18, 4:39*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:

I installed some X10 components today and have some issues.

First, it's interesting that the specs for the MS16A Wireless Motion
Sensor given on the X10 site make no mention of the transmission
range. Wouldn't you think that that is a pretty important number to
know?

http://www.x10.com/products/x10_ms16a.htm

However, you can find them here and they state the transmission range
is 100'.

http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/MS16A

Using the test buttons on the sensor, I can trigger an RR501 receiver
consistently within 40', intermittently within 40' - 50' and not at
all above 50' - and that's with nothing obstructing the line of site
between the two units.

Put a garage wall between them, and I'm limited to a max of about 25',
less than 15' in some locations.

I've tried 2 different MS16A units and 2 different RR501's and got the
same results. Yes, they were brand new batteries. I even tested them
to eliminate the batteries as the problem.

Next issue: When using the dimmer feature of the WS4777 3-way switch
or WS467 single switch, the bulbs do not dim to nothing. You can still
see the light in a 65W outdoor spot even when the sun is up. I don't
know how often I'd want to dim them to nothing, but I'm just wondering
if that is normal.

Lastly (for now) I seemed to get inconsistant operation of the system
when the RR501 were plugged into GFCI outlets. They seemed to work
about 90% of the time, but every now and then the test buttons on the
sensors wouldn't do anything even if I was standing right in front of
the RR501. If I move the RR501 to a standard receptacle it starts
working again. I tried two different GFCI's and got the same result.
What's up with that?

If this is normal operation, then I'm going to be very limited as to
where I place my sensors since I appear to be restricted by both
distance and receptacle type.

My new toys aren't making me happy!

The older 2 wire X10 devices keep some current flowing through the
filament all the time. *The latest non-X10 devices all use a neutral
and completly un-power the bulb at fully dim or off.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Contrary to the claims of it being a toy, I have been using
essentially the same X10 settup Derby is attempting for 2 years.
It's used to turn on lights outside the garage when motion is detected
and to turn the front door lights on at dusk and off at dawn. *All
that is done with the outdoor motion detector, the wireless
transceiver, and two wall switches.

Some key differences:

The transceiver is located at an outlet in the garage which is only
about 5 feet away from the outdoor motion sensor. * Had I known Derby
wanted to use it at ranges greater than 50ft, I would have said that I
doubt it is capable of those ranges. *The initial application we were
talking about was to turn front door lights on/off with a motion
detector. * Nothing about that suggested the need for a long range.
Also, with outlets being everywhere, for most apps I would think you'd
have an outlet available for the transceiver to plug in that is not
too far away and with only one wall seperation. * I do agree that they
should make the specs and limitations on distance better known. * But
those limitations aren't unique to X10 and exist with a lot of
wireless devices, let alone one that cost $10.

Regarding GFCI, I'll have to check on that. * The transceiver is
plugged into a garage outlet, which I assume would be on a GFCI
circuit and it works. *But, I'll confirm that. *The switches and
modules are all plugged into standard outlets.

I'll also check the dimming feature, which I never use. *My suspicion
is that it's just the way it's designed, ie you can't dim it beyond a
certain point.

I also use X10 with their controller/timer unit to turn 3 lights
around the house on/off when I'm away. * It's done that fine. * The
only issue I had was getting the correct modules that will work with
CFL. *Is it 100% reliable? *No. *But it's certainly been reliable for
the applications I'm using it for. *And considering the cost, I think
a good solution.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

For cfls, are apliance modules needed, do they have relays. Ive used
the dimming feature with modules and switches and they dim to zero.

On Sat, 18 Sep 2010 21:16:35 -0700 (PDT), RickH wrote:

snip
Not much cost difference either over X10, but you get what you pay for.

Really? I have been using X10 since the 70's and have about 20
receivers on multiple house codes (various switches, modules, etc) and
5 transmitters (RF based as well as older controllers and computer
interfaces). As others have said, I have done a lot of TLC to keep it
all going. A few years ago, I invested in an XTB which worked
wonders.

When new ads arrive from Smarthome, I think about converting to
Insteon, but the cost is a major factor. X10 devices are still
available in the $10 to $15 range while Insteon is usually $40 to $50.
That strikes me as a lot of cost difference. (Although, converting
the 1970's X10 module price to today's dollars yields prices greater
than today's Insteon prices). I may yet convert one of these days,
but with the XTB and a few filters in the system, the X10 system gets
the job done. I might even consider spending the money to convert,
but how to I know Insteon won't go away tomorrow? I took that risk
with X10 in the 70's and it clearly hasn't been a problem! Will
Insteon still be around in 40 years? I doubt it, but I would settle
for a guarantee of 10 years.

Sorry for the rambling response. I started out to just disagree with
your "not much of a cost difference" statement.

"Robert Green" wrote in message
...
"RBM" wrote in message
...

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
I installed some X10 components today and have some issues.

description of several common X-10 issue snipped

My new toys aren't making me happy!

"Toys" being the optimum word

That's only partly true. X-10 gear has the "potential" to be the backbone
of a highly reliably, very powerful (and best yet, surprisingly
inexpensive)
home automation system. Many people use it quite successfully. But not
the
way it comes from the factory.

Straight out of the box it's often a confusing, bedeviling, exasperating
experience in: "WHY!!!?" Depending on what you bought, it can be: Why
doesn't it work like they say? Why doesn't it work like I expect it to?
Why
doesn't it work at all? Or, the worst of all, why is it smoking like
that?

With a little help, you can almost alway find a way to use it out of the
box
to turn on or off ONE problem light. X-10, however, scales badly and the
more devices you add, the dicier things get for a number of different
reasons, too detailed to go into here.

The X-10 concept is great. You can turn OFF or ON all the lights in the
house or flash them. There's no faster way for the cops or EMS to find
you
when they're running down a street that to look for the house that's
flashing all its lights. It's an attention getter.

Better still, it's cheap because the patent expired and it's managed to
become a standard, with units built by many makers and robust price and
feature competition.

But (and it's a Neicy Nash sized but) it was designed for the electrical
"grid" found in the houses of 1970 when you might not find a single switch
mode power supply outside of a laboratory. Now, every little battery
charger made is a switch mode power supply.

X-10 RF was designed a little later, but essentially for the RF
environment
of those days and a lot has changed. They've always lied about their 100
ft
range. Between two perfectly tuned devices, out in the middle of the
ocean
away from the radio noise of the big city -- maybe, but X-10 is
mass-manufactured, not hand-tuned. The frequency match between devices is
often quite poor and you can get RF failure in a plaster/lath house in as
little as 10 feet. Hence the name X-10. sarcasm alert - not true fact

To make it a workable solution, as George has suggested, you need to
"boost"
the basic specs of X-10. I believe he's using the WGL All Housecode
transceiver.

http://www.wgldesigns.com/

Specifically:

http://www.wgldesigns.com/v572.html

This unit has a far superior RF receiver, compared to stock X-10 gear, and
most importantly allows for connection to an external antenna. X-10's
designs, IIRC, use capacitance-coupled antennas and present a serious
shock
hazard if standard attempts are made to improve its (pitiful) range.

Stock X-10 may be enough for a lot of people, but to turn X-10 into a
"when
I push the button, I know the light will go out 99% of the time (or
better)"
then you also need Jeff Volp's product, the XTB-IIR.

http://jvde.us/xtb_index.htm

This is a repeating amplifier (among many other things) that takes the
average 5V output of the X-10 signal over the powerline and boosts it up
to
around 25V. Hence the name XTB (X-10 Transmission Booster - true fact).
No
X-10 installation larger than "toy" or "one attic light on a pull chain"
should be without it, but I'm guessing maybe half a million are. With all
the cheap plug-in chargers in the world that leak RF onto the powerlines
(or
worse, block it AND the X-10 signal from propagating), it's only a matter
of
time before stock X-10 users begin experiencing intermittent "ghost"
failures: those annoying, middle of the night activations that are so
incredibly annoying and have very low SAF. Or it will come in the form of
lights that just refuse to be controlled remotely. Or at all.

With the XTB gear, "I press the button and the light goes on." Anyone
with
a twitchy X-10 system knows what a serious endorsement that is. I can
find
fault with almost any product, but this one's only fault is that it needs
to
be installed in a box next to the main circuit panel and wired to each
phase
of the 240VAC service via a tandem breaker. For about 90% of the people
here, though, that's probably not a problem. He's even got gear that can
help without needing serious changes to the main circuit panel.

Disclaimer: No financial interest in either company, just a deliriously
happy user of both. I figure they've saved me over $3,000 in not having
to
change over to a more expensive, more limited AND proprietary protocol
like
Insteon or Z-wave.

--
Bobby G.


I'm not interested in controls that only have the "potential". I rarely use
any X-10, but have been dealing with Leviton's DEC/DHC garbage for years. I
never install it, just do my best to repair it when it stops working. I
love the scenario where a customer has controls that work fine for a few
days, weeks, months, then suddenly stop working, but there is nothing wrong
with the controls. I call for technical assistance, and I'm asked if the
customer got any new refrigerators or airconditioners. If line noise from
common household appliances rakes that much havoc on this junk, I certainly
wouldn't sell it. Bottom line, it works great, when and if it works.

On Sun, 19 Sep 2010 09:04:04 -0400, George wrote:

[snip]

If I were doing anything more than simple or simply wanted it to work
without tinkering I would just go with insteon. Some friends tried whole
house automation with X-10 and it does take a huge amount of TLC.

Yes, it does.

That's why I tried Insteon. It was worse. Much worse than not working at
all. It was extremely erratic. I returned the stuff to where I ordered it
(Smarthome). That's been a couple of years, and they still owe me $90 for
returned stuff they didn't credit.

--
97 days until The winter celebration (Saturday December 25, 2010
12:00:00 AM).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

"God is make believe"

On Sat, 18 Sep 2010 21:16:35 -0700, RickH wrote:

On Sep 18, 4:39Â*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
I installed some X10 components today and have some issues.

First, it's interesting that the specs for the MS16A Wireless Motion
Sensor given on the X10 site make no mention of the transmission range.
Wouldn't you think that that is a pretty important number to know?

http://www.x10.com/products/x10_ms16a.htm

However, you can find them here and they state the transmission range
is 100'.

http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/MS16A

Using the test buttons on the sensor, I can trigger an RR501 receiver
consistently within 40', intermittently within 40' - 50' and not at all
above 50' - and that's with nothing obstructing the line of site
between the two units.

Put a garage wall between them, and I'm limited to a max of about 25',
less than 15' in some locations.

I've tried 2 different MS16A units and 2 different RR501's and got the
same results. Yes, they were brand new batteries. I even tested them to
eliminate the batteries as the problem.

Next issue: When using the dimmer feature of the WS4777 3-way switch or
WS467 single switch, the bulbs do not dim to nothing. You can still see
the light in a 65W outdoor spot even when the sun is up. I don't know
how often I'd want to dim them to nothing, but I'm just wondering if
that is normal.

Lastly (for now) I seemed to get inconsistant operation of the system
when the RR501 were plugged into GFCI outlets. They seemed to work
about 90% of the time, but every now and then the test buttons on the
sensors wouldn't do anything even if I was standing right in front of
the RR501. If I move the RR501 to a standard receptacle it starts
working again. I tried two different GFCI's and got the same result.
What's up with that?

If this is normal operation, then I'm going to be very limited as to
where I place my sensors since I appear to be restricted by both
distance and receptacle type.

My new toys aren't making me happy!


X10 is 1970's technology literally, there are many other far superior
powerline and RF based mesh network devices available these days. X10
is a toy. Smarthome Insteon or the Lutron devices are very reliable,
especially the ones that are dual band, sending the commands
simultaneously over RF and the powerline, and every device in these mesh
networks becomes a repeater making it even more reliable. Not much cost
difference either over X10, but you get what you pay for. I remember
doing the X10 experiment board projects from Popular Electronics
magazine around 1973 or so, it was impressive then, but by todays
standard it is a toy. X10 signals are easily sucked off the powerline
by the filters in all the electronic devices on the powerline in standby
mode, TV's, receivers, UPS backups, computers, X10 has a hard time
competing with those as they filter noise, including your X10 signal.
Then you have the perpetual issue of bridging tthe signal to devices on
the other phase without an amp, repeater or passive bridge.

True, although I had much more trouble with Insteon. It never worked
acceptably for more than 5 minutes (with NO MORE than one module and
controller).

--
97 days until The winter celebration (Saturday December 25, 2010
12:00:00 AM).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

"God is make believe"

On Sat, 18 Sep 2010 21:20:04 -0700, RickH wrote:

On Sep 18, 4:39Â*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
I installed some X10 components today and have some issues.

First, it's interesting that the specs for the MS16A Wireless Motion
Sensor given on the X10 site make no mention of the transmission range.
Wouldn't you think that that is a pretty important number to know?

http://www.x10.com/products/x10_ms16a.htm

However, you can find them here and they state the transmission range
is 100'.

http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/MS16A

Using the test buttons on the sensor, I can trigger an RR501 receiver
consistently within 40', intermittently within 40' - 50' and not at all
above 50' - and that's with nothing obstructing the line of site
between the two units.

Put a garage wall between them, and I'm limited to a max of about 25',
less than 15' in some locations.

I've tried 2 different MS16A units and 2 different RR501's and got the
same results. Yes, they were brand new batteries. I even tested them to
eliminate the batteries as the problem.

Next issue: When using the dimmer feature of the WS4777 3-way switch or
WS467 single switch, the bulbs do not dim to nothing. You can still see
the light in a 65W outdoor spot even when the sun is up. I don't know
how often I'd want to dim them to nothing, but I'm just wondering if
that is normal.

Lastly (for now) I seemed to get inconsistant operation of the system
when the RR501 were plugged into GFCI outlets. They seemed to work
about 90% of the time, but every now and then the test buttons on the
sensors wouldn't do anything even if I was standing right in front of
the RR501. If I move the RR501 to a standard receptacle it starts
working again. I tried two different GFCI's and got the same result.
What's up with that?

If this is normal operation, then I'm going to be very limited as to
where I place my sensors since I appear to be restricted by both
distance and receptacle type.

My new toys aren't making me happy!

The older 2 wire X10 devices keep some current flowing through the
filament all the time. The latest non-X10 devices all use a neutral and
completly un-power the bulb at fully dim or off.


I have some of those devices. They use a neutral AND pass a current
through the load when off. This is true even for the modules without
"local control".

--
97 days until The winter celebration (Saturday December 25, 2010
12:00:00 AM).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

"God is make believe"

On Sun, 19 Sep 2010 06:38:41 -0700, ransley wrote:

[snip]

For cfls, are apliance modules needed, do they have relays.

And a bypass for current when off. Check the schematics.

Ive used the
dimming feature with modules and switches and they dim to zero.

It's not actually zero current. It seems the differences between
different CFLs affect whether or not there's any visible light produced.

--
97 days until The winter celebration (Saturday December 25, 2010
12:00:00 AM).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

"God is make believe"

On Sep 19, 8:34*am, wrote:
On Sep 19, 12:20*am, RickH wrote:



On Sep 18, 4:39*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:

I installed some X10 components today and have some issues.

First, it's interesting that the specs for the MS16A Wireless Motion
Sensor given on the X10 site make no mention of the transmission
range. Wouldn't you think that that is a pretty important number to
know?

http://www.x10.com/products/x10_ms16a.htm

However, you can find them here and they state the transmission range
is 100'.

http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/MS16A

Using the test buttons on the sensor, I can trigger an RR501 receiver
consistently within 40', intermittently within 40' - 50' and not at
all above 50' - and that's with nothing obstructing the line of site
between the two units.

Put a garage wall between them, and I'm limited to a max of about 25',
less than 15' in some locations.

I've tried 2 different MS16A units and 2 different RR501's and got the
same results. Yes, they were brand new batteries. I even tested them
to eliminate the batteries as the problem.

Next issue: When using the dimmer feature of the WS4777 3-way switch
or WS467 single switch, the bulbs do not dim to nothing. You can still
see the light in a 65W outdoor spot even when the sun is up. I don't
know how often I'd want to dim them to nothing, but I'm just wondering
if that is normal.

Lastly (for now) I seemed to get inconsistant operation of the system
when the RR501 were plugged into GFCI outlets. They seemed to work
about 90% of the time, but every now and then the test buttons on the
sensors wouldn't do anything even if I was standing right in front of
the RR501. If I move the RR501 to a standard receptacle it starts
working again. I tried two different GFCI's and got the same result.
What's up with that?

If this is normal operation, then I'm going to be very limited as to
where I place my sensors since I appear to be restricted by both
distance and receptacle type.

My new toys aren't making me happy!

The older 2 wire X10 devices keep some current flowing through the
filament all the time. *The latest non-X10 devices all use a neutral
and completly un-power the bulb at fully dim or off.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Contrary to the claims of it being a toy, I have been using
essentially the same X10 settup Derby is attempting for 2 years.
It's used to turn on lights outside the garage when motion is detected
and to turn the front door lights on at dusk and off at dawn. *All
that is done with the outdoor motion detector, the wireless
transceiver, and two wall switches.

==

Some key differences:

The transceiver is located at an outlet in the garage which is only
about 5 feet away from the outdoor motion sensor. * Had I known Derby
wanted to use it at ranges greater than 50ft, I would have said that I
doubt it is capable of those ranges. *The initial application we were
talking about was to turn front door lights on/off with a motion
detector. * Nothing about that suggested the need for a long range.

trader4,

Please don't take any of this the wrong way, since I really appreciate
the help you given me so far.

I guess I should have paid more attention to your statement:

"The wireless unit transmits a signal that is received by a small
module that you plug in to any *nearby* AC outlet in the house."

Apparently the word "nearby" held more of a literal meaning than I
realized!

Based on the distance I described in my OP (30' - 40') I doubt I'll be
able to mount the sensor in a location that will cover the walkway and
also be "nearby" an AC outlet, especially considering that there's a
brick wall then plaster/lath wall to consider.

I'm having trouble getting through vinyl siding and an unfinished
garage wall from more than 10' - 15'

In addition, the nearest outlet is in the living room room which would
mean that the considerable "click" the RR501 makes will be an
annoyance. I was hoping to be able to place the RR501 in the basement
based on the 100' spec I found at the X10-Wiki site.

I'll have to play around next time I go to Dad's and see if I can find
suitable locations for both units.

Also, with outlets being everywhere, for most apps I would think you'd
have an outlet available for the transceiver to plug in that is not
too far away and with only one wall separation. * I do agree that they
should make the specs and limitations on distance better known. * But
those limitations aren't unique to X10 and exist with a lot of
wireless devices, let alone one that cost $10.

Again, the use of the words "not too far away" is very relative.

I mean this in the nicest way, but I'd like to suggest that the next
time you describe the use of X10, you be a bit more specific. Keep in
mind that as newbies, we don't know what "nearby or "not too far away"
really means, especially if we expect the specs given by X10 to be at
least some what accurate. 100' vs "15' if there's a wall in between"
isn't even close. 100' could be considered "not too far away" if
you're talking about a 1/4' mile driveway.

That reminds me of an IT Director that I used to work for. She was a
few levels above me and usually met with departments heads and the
like, but on occasion would invite us lowly Project Managers to her
meetings to give an update. It was well known that if she asked for
time frame or cost estimation, and you gave an answer like "not very
long" or "not too much", not only would you get an immediate lecture -
in front of entire management team - about the use of such non-
specific terms ("I can not plan for personnel and financial resources
based on 'not very long. 'Not very long' is of no use to me.") but you
could be pretty sure that you would not be invited back to any more
meetings. Not a very good career builder! :-)


Regarding GFCI, I'll have to check on that. * The transceiver is
plugged into a garage outlet, which I assume would be on a GFCI
circuit and it works. *But, I'll confirm that. *The switches and
modules are all plugged into standard outlets.

I'll keep testing the GFCI issue. Now that I think I'm a little
clearer on the range issue, I can eliminate some of the variables and
just see if the GFCI(s) really make a difference.

I'll also check the dimming feature, which I never use. *My suspicion
is that it's just the way it's designed, ie you can't dim it beyond a
certain point.

Not a big issue at all. I didn't realize when I posted that a quick
tap of the push button turned the light on or off at it's current
setting. I can't imagine why I'd ever dim the lights to zero.


I also use X10 with their controller/timer unit to turn 3 lights
around the house on/off when I'm away. * It's done that fine. * The
only issue I had was getting the correct modules that will work with
CFL. *Is it 100% reliable? *No. *But it's certainly been reliable for
the applications I'm using it for. *And considering the cost, I think
a good solution.

....within it's limitations, of course ;-)

Thanks again.

On Sep 19, 8:53*am, wrote:
On Sat, 18 Sep 2010 21:16:35 -0700 (PDT), RickH wrote:

*snip

Not much cost difference either over X10, but you get what you pay for.

Really? *I have been using X10 since the 70's and have about 20
receivers on multiple house codes (various switches, modules, etc) and
5 transmitters (RF based as well as older controllers and computer
interfaces). *As others have said, I have done a lot of TLC to keep it
all going. *A few years ago, I invested in an XTB which worked
wonders.

When new ads arrive from Smarthome, I think about converting to
Insteon, but the cost is a major factor. *X10 devices are still
available in the $10 to $15 range while Insteon is usually $40 to $50.
That strikes me as a lot of cost difference. *(Although, converting
the 1970's X10 module price to today's dollars yields prices greater
than today's Insteon prices). *I may yet convert one of these days,
but with the XTB and a few filters in the system, the X10 system gets
the job done. *I might even consider spending the money to convert,
but how to I know Insteon won't go away tomorrow? *I took that risk
with X10 in the 70's and it clearly hasn't been a problem! *Will
Insteon still be around in 40 years? *I doubt it, but I would settle
for a guarantee of 10 years.

Sorry for the rambling response. *I started out to just disagree with
your "not much of a cost difference" statement.


You are comparing the China X10 prices. I avoid the China X10 stuff
and used the ACT models made in Indiana, they cost more but are
better. But I weened everything off X10 to Insteon with a
computerless 24/7 ISY controller:

http://www.smarthome.com/12231DB/ISY...and-PLM/p.aspx

"RickH" wrote in message
...
On Sep 19, 8:53 am, wrote:
On Sat, 18 Sep 2010 21:16:35 -0700 (PDT), RickH wrote:

snip

Not much cost difference either over X10, but you get what you pay for.

Really? I have been using X10 since the 70's and have about 20
receivers on multiple house codes (various switches, modules, etc) and
5 transmitters (RF based as well as older controllers and computer
interfaces). As others have said, I have done a lot of TLC to keep it
all going. A few years ago, I invested in an XTB which worked
wonders.

When new ads arrive from Smarthome, I think about converting to
Insteon, but the cost is a major factor. X10 devices are still
available in the $10 to $15 range while Insteon is usually $40 to $50.
That strikes me as a lot of cost difference. (Although, converting
the 1970's X10 module price to today's dollars yields prices greater
than today's Insteon prices). I may yet convert one of these days,
but with the XTB and a few filters in the system, the X10 system gets
the job done. I might even consider spending the money to convert,
but how to I know Insteon won't go away tomorrow? I took that risk
with X10 in the 70's and it clearly hasn't been a problem! Will
Insteon still be around in 40 years? I doubt it, but I would settle
for a guarantee of 10 years.

Sorry for the rambling response. I started out to just disagree with
your "not much of a cost difference" statement.


You are comparing the China X10 prices. I avoid the China X10 stuff
and used the ACT models made in Indiana, they cost more but are
better. But I weened everything off X10 to Insteon with a
computerless 24/7 ISY controller:

Your statement about ACT is another reason I prefer X-10. If you want high
quality gear, you can opt for it, but I find that now I have the XTB, the
mass produced Chinese stuff is good for most applications. I imagine the
changeover wasn't cheap. Do you recall how much it cost, or was it such a
slow switchover you didn't notice. To Insteon's credit, they did make it
easy to run both protocols so that you could switch over manually.


http://www.smarthome.com/12231DB/ISY...and-PLM/p.aspx

I recall a lot of people having serious issues with the first control units
that came out and IIRC, they abandoned one of their controller models in
midstream, but I could easily be mistaken.

Insteon's big advantage (AFAIK) is that it's inherently two-way and that it
can transmit a lot more data per second than X-10. That gets to be
important when you have a lot of control traffic on the powerline. X-10 has
collision problems, especially if you use a lot of X-10 motion sensors.
They put so much traffic on the line that they frequently "step on"
transmissions from other modules.

--
Bobby G.

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
news:d15743c6-7dca-4152-9d4b-

stuff snipped

"I'm betting when DerbyDad adds a second light to his setup, he'll
meet X-10's now infamous "PlusOne" demon."

errr...you might as well tell me about it now.

And ruin the fun? The PlusOne demon will put hair on your chest! It will
cause you to utter swear words you didn't even know you knew!

My initial set up is a dual flood over the garage door on a 3-way
switch and a fixture by the front door controlled by a single switch.
The single and the main 3-way are in the same box by the front door,
the 3-way companion switch is in the garage.

So far, placement of the sensor at about 4 feet (6 didn't work)
catches my van as I pull in and pedestrians as they walk past the car
if it's in the driveway.

This is probably one of the most important reasons I chose to use a
standalone fixture. IIRC, it was $10 for the whole shebang and it included a
sensor on a stalk that you could aim right at the walkway. The X-10 sensors
tend to take in too much, no matter where you place them and the "stock"
mounting arrangement is very limited (flat against the wall, basically).

I've been most successful with them in the bathroom and outside, positioned
looking across the basement stairs from one side to another so that only a
person walking right by would trigger it. Aiming it at a blank wall also
reduces squirrel, bird and wind activation. Mount yours on a swivel joint
(shouldn't be hard for a soapbox racer builder!) so you can point it just
where you need it. Be prepared for it to miss sensing anything when the
outside temps are in the 90's. Not enough difference between warm living
bodies and the background, I guess.

If you're in a cold neck of the woods, use lithium AAA's to make sure they
work below zero degrees. I have taken one or two of the hard to reach ones
and soldered in "D" cell battery holders remotely located from the sensor.
Another thing I dislike about the sensors is that when you change the
batteries, you lose the settings. A remote battery pack allows me to clip
in two AA's in a holder into the circuit to keep the memory settings alive
while I change the D cells. For the sensors located high up, that's a real
help. FWIW, I've had one unit running off 2 D cells for over 5 years. The
sensors are pretty low-drain affairs.

What's this "PlusOne" demon you speak so fondly of?

Oh, what the hey. I'll spill. The X-10 motion sensors have, in addition to
the PIR motion sensor, a cadmium sulfide (CDS) cell to detect light. When
they sense that it's gotten dark, they will turn on the lamp that has a unit
setting ONE higher than the code it is set to. If it's controlling lamp A1
then at dusk it will turn unit A2 ON and at dawn it will turn A2 OFF again.

You can't imagine how badly this has bewildered many new users of X-10.
Even the really smart guys get taken in, and worse yet, those who think
they've gotten around the problem by choosing unit code 16 (the highest
allowed) find that the PlusOne demon "wraps" around and will use unit code 1
as the dawn/dusk unit.

Perhaps the worst case scenario is a situation where a PlusOne sensor is in
range of another and the codes are set so that one sensor turns out the
lights and the other sensor, thinking it's dusk, turns them back on. The
potential for insanity is very, very high.

The light detection circuitry is actually quite handy when you know it's
there and how to deal with. Most times, though, it's more trouble than help
so I open the motion detectors, find the CDS cell (the silver can with the
red squiggly lines on the glass top), and cover it in black shrink tubing to
defeat PlusOne completely. Some people cut the leads, but the shrink tubing
method is more easily reversible with a quick touch of an X-acto knife.
Advanced users have created many "mods" that allow you to clip out the CDS
sensor and replace it with other detectors for a wide range of purposes. I
have about 40 of them because when I was acquiring X-10 gear, they always
threw in a couple of "Hawkeyes" for free.

I've had some success in eliminating squirrel-caused activations by using
strips of black masking tape on the smoked plastic "lens" of the motion
sensor. Even so, I much prefer my $10 standalone motion detection fixture
just to keep all the extra X-10 signals that come from detecting rabbits,
squirrels, cats, dogs, birds, bats and passing cars from cluttering up the
powerline. The X-10 motion sensors are perhaps the number one cause of lost
transmissions due to collisions. X-10's error checking protocol is
unfortunately not the best so when two valid commands appear on the line at
the same time, they often create a third command that may or may not effect
other modules in the house.

I discovered collisions when the motion controlled light in the bathroom
would come on when you entered the room and then it would suddenly kick off
at pretty much the worst possible moment. That had SUCH low SAF I pulled
ALL the X-10 motion sensors from the first floor except for the bathroom
one. Since I've started using the HomeVision controller, I've been able to
set it up so that at night, the bathroom light comes on at 25% dim and goes
out when no motion is detected for 16 minutes. There's still some arm
waving on the can from time to time, but no more lights out in mid-stream!

Welcome to the wild and wacky world of X-10, Derby. Despite the horror
stories, I can't imagine living without it and when I visit other people's
homes, I feel like I am in the stone age. I used to be evangelical about
pushing X-10, but now I've turned 180 degrees and mostly warn people off
unless they are prepared to get deep into the details. It's not as easy as
X-10 makes it seem, but it's also not as bad as its detractors would have
you believe. Like many other things, it takes patience, learning and skill
to master.

--
Bobby G.

On Sep 20, 1:03*am, "Robert Green" wrote:
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message

news:d15743c6-7dca-4152-9d4b-

stuff snipped

"I'm betting when DerbyDad adds a second light to his setup, he'll
meet X-10's now infamous "PlusOne" demon."
errr...you might as well tell me about it now.

And ruin the fun? *The PlusOne demon will put hair on your chest! *It will
cause you to utter swear words you didn't even know you knew!

My initial set up is a dual flood over the garage door on a 3-way
switch and a fixture by the front door controlled by a single switch.
The single and the main 3-way are in the same box by the front door,
the 3-way companion switch is in the garage.
So far, placement of the sensor at about 4 feet (6 didn't work)
catches my van as I pull in and pedestrians as they walk past the car
if it's in the driveway.

This is probably one of the most important reasons I chose to use a
standalone fixture. IIRC, it was $10 for the whole shebang and it included a
sensor on a stalk that you could aim right at the walkway. *The X-10 sensors
tend to take in too much, no matter where you place them and the "stock"
mounting arrangement is very limited (flat against the wall, basically).

I've been most successful with them in the bathroom and outside, positioned
looking across the basement stairs from one side to another so that only a
person walking right by would trigger it. *Aiming it at a blank wall also
reduces squirrel, bird and wind activation. *Mount yours on a swivel joint
(shouldn't be hard for a soapbox racer builder!) so you can point it just
where you need it. *Be prepared for it to miss sensing anything when the
outside temps are in the 90's. *Not enough difference between warm living
bodies and the background, I guess.

If you're in a cold neck of the woods, use lithium AAA's to make sure they
work below zero degrees. *I have taken one or two of the hard to reach ones
and soldered in "D" cell battery holders remotely located from the sensor..
Another thing I dislike about the sensors is that when you change the
batteries, you lose the settings. *A remote battery pack allows me to clip
in two AA's in a holder into the circuit to keep the memory settings alive
while I change the D cells. *For the sensors located high up, that's a real
help. FWIW, I've had one unit running off 2 D cells for over 5 years. *The
sensors are pretty low-drain affairs.

What's this "PlusOne" demon you speak so fondly of?

Oh, what the hey. *I'll spill. *The X-10 motion sensors have, in addition to
the PIR motion sensor, a cadmium sulfide (CDS) cell to detect light. *When
they sense that it's gotten dark, they will turn on the lamp that has a unit
setting ONE higher than the code it is set to. *If it's controlling lamp A1
then at dusk it will turn unit A2 ON and at dawn it will turn A2 OFF again.

On Sep 19, 11:52*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sep 19, 8:34*am, wrote:





On Sep 19, 12:20*am, RickH wrote:

On Sep 18, 4:39*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:

I installed some X10 components today and have some issues.

First, it's interesting that the specs for the MS16A Wireless Motion
Sensor given on the X10 site make no mention of the transmission
range. Wouldn't you think that that is a pretty important number to
know?

http://www.x10.com/products/x10_ms16a.htm

However, you can find them here and they state the transmission range
is 100'.

http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/MS16A

Using the test buttons on the sensor, I can trigger an RR501 receiver
consistently within 40', intermittently within 40' - 50' and not at
all above 50' - and that's with nothing obstructing the line of site
between the two units.

Put a garage wall between them, and I'm limited to a max of about 25',
less than 15' in some locations.

I've tried 2 different MS16A units and 2 different RR501's and got the
same results. Yes, they were brand new batteries. I even tested them
to eliminate the batteries as the problem.

Next issue: When using the dimmer feature of the WS4777 3-way switch
or WS467 single switch, the bulbs do not dim to nothing. You can still
see the light in a 65W outdoor spot even when the sun is up. I don't
know how often I'd want to dim them to nothing, but I'm just wondering
if that is normal.

Lastly (for now) I seemed to get inconsistant operation of the system
when the RR501 were plugged into GFCI outlets. They seemed to work
about 90% of the time, but every now and then the test buttons on the
sensors wouldn't do anything even if I was standing right in front of
the RR501. If I move the RR501 to a standard receptacle it starts
working again. I tried two different GFCI's and got the same result..
What's up with that?

If this is normal operation, then I'm going to be very limited as to
where I place my sensors since I appear to be restricted by both
distance and receptacle type.

My new toys aren't making me happy!

The older 2 wire X10 devices keep some current flowing through the
filament all the time. *The latest non-X10 devices all use a neutral
and completly un-power the bulb at fully dim or off.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Contrary to the claims of it being a toy, I have been using
essentially the same X10 settup Derby is attempting for 2 years.
It's used to turn on lights outside the garage when motion is detected
and to turn the front door lights on at dusk and off at dawn. *All
that is done with the outdoor motion detector, the wireless
transceiver, and two wall switches.

==

Some key differences:

The transceiver is located at an outlet in the garage which is only
about 5 feet away from the outdoor motion sensor. * Had I known Derby
wanted to use it at ranges greater than 50ft, I would have said that I
doubt it is capable of those ranges. *The initial application we were
talking about was to turn front door lights on/off with a motion
detector. * Nothing about that suggested the need for a long range.

trader4,

Please don't take any of this the wrong way, since I really appreciate
the help you given me so far.

I guess I should have paid more attention to your statement:

"The wireless unit transmits a signal that is received by a small
module that you plug in to any *nearby* AC outlet in the house."

Apparently the word "nearby" held more of a literal meaning than I
realized!

Yes I did say nearby. Going back to your initial description of the
application:

"
My dad asked me to replace the light next to his front door with a
motion sensing unit. He bought a stock fixture from HD with the
sensor
built into the fixture. There is no way to aim the sensor, it just
points straight out from the front of the fixture.

The approach to their front door is straight up a ~40' walkway from
the sidewalk. Even set at the highest sensitivity, which should allow
for a ~30' range, the light doesn't come on until the person is right
at the stoop, ready to lift their leg onto the first step.

However, if you walk across the yard the light will come on anywhere
in the 5' to 30'+ range. In fact, 1 out 3 cars going down the street
activate the light.

Unfortunately, "across the coverage area" is not how they (or anyone
else) would approach their front door.

What kind of fixture/sensor does he need so that it will pick up
people walking straight towards it? "


From that description I took it that you are activating a typical
front door light with a 75 or 100 watt bulb, intended to provide light
as people get within 10 to 20 ft of the steps. The problem seemed to
be that the motion light you had only activated when people were right
at the actual porch steps. And such a porch light isn't going to do
anything to provide light 40 ft down the sidewalk. You'd need a
150Watt flood aimed from the porch down the sidewalk, right into
peoples eyes to provide light 40 ft out. Either that or a light
located somewhere other than the front door.

So, I assumed you would be mounting the motion sensor facing across
the walkway somewhere along the sidewalk, maybe 20 ft out, not
necessarily close to the end of the 40 ft sidewalk.


From this part:

"BTW, it's an old brick house with a shallow box for the fixture cut
into the brick. A one-for-one swap is easy, but mounting a separate
sensor someplace else and running wires back to the fixture would be a
pain. I'd really prefer something built into the fixture if possible.
"

I didn't pay close attention to the brick wall part or think of it's
implications. Had I thought that part through, it probably would
have dawned on me that it will indeed reduce the range of wireless
compared to vinyl or wood walls. For that I appologize.

Are there any windows nearby? If you can get a path from motion
detector to transceiver through a window instead of brick, or through
the front door unless it's steel, that should make a big difference.
Also, any chance of putting the transceiver in the attic near the
front door?



Based on the distance I described in my OP (30' - 40') I doubt I'll be
able to mount the sensor in a location that will cover the walkway and
also be "nearby" an AC outlet, especially considering that there's a
brick wall then plaster/lath wall to consider.

I'm having trouble getting through vinyl siding and an unfinished
garage wall from more than 10' - 15'

In addition, the nearest outlet is in the living room room which would
mean that the considerable "click" the RR501 makes will be an
annoyance.

For some people that's a feature, as now you have a click when the
motion sensor on the front door is activated. But I agree, if you're
sensitive to it then it can be a valid issue.




I was hoping to be able to place the RR501 in the basement
based on the 100' spec I found at the X10-Wiki site.

Have you actually tried it at all yet in the intended use at your
Dad's house?



I'll have to play around next time I go to Dad's and see if I can find
suitable locations for both units.

Also, with outlets being everywhere, for most apps I would think you'd
have an outlet available for the transceiver to plug in that is not
too far away and with only one wall separation. * I do agree that they
should make the specs and limitations on distance better known. * But
those limitations aren't unique to X10 and exist with a lot of
wireless devices, let alone one that cost $10.

Again, the use of the words "not too far away" is very relative.

I mean this in the nicest way, but I'd like to suggest that the next
time you describe the use of X10, you be a bit more specific. Keep in
mind that as newbies, we don't know what "nearby or "not too far away"

I mean this in the nicest way too. I'd suggest that in the future, if
you don't know what is meant by any terms that are unclear, just ask.
We are talking wireless here and with any wireless products there are
distance limitations. When I get a chance I'll test mine and see how
far the wireless range is.

Worse case you can just put the X10 stuff back on Ebay and resell it.

On Sep 20, 6:34*am, wrote:
On Sep 19, 11:52*am, DerbyDad03 wrote:



On Sep 19, 8:34*am, wrote:

On Sep 19, 12:20*am, RickH wrote:

On Sep 18, 4:39*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:

I installed some X10 components today and have some issues.

First, it's interesting that the specs for the MS16A Wireless Motion
Sensor given on the X10 site make no mention of the transmission
range. Wouldn't you think that that is a pretty important number to
know?

http://www.x10.com/products/x10_ms16a.htm

However, you can find them here and they state the transmission range
is 100'.

http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/MS16A

Using the test buttons on the sensor, I can trigger an RR501 receiver
consistently within 40', intermittently within 40' - 50' and not at
all above 50' - and that's with nothing obstructing the line of site
between the two units.

Put a garage wall between them, and I'm limited to a max of about 25',
less than 15' in some locations.

I've tried 2 different MS16A units and 2 different RR501's and got the
same results. Yes, they were brand new batteries. I even tested them
to eliminate the batteries as the problem.

Next issue: When using the dimmer feature of the WS4777 3-way switch
or WS467 single switch, the bulbs do not dim to nothing. You can still
see the light in a 65W outdoor spot even when the sun is up. I don't
know how often I'd want to dim them to nothing, but I'm just wondering
if that is normal.

Lastly (for now) I seemed to get inconsistant operation of the system
when the RR501 were plugged into GFCI outlets. They seemed to work
about 90% of the time, but every now and then the test buttons on the
sensors wouldn't do anything even if I was standing right in front of
the RR501. If I move the RR501 to a standard receptacle it starts
working again. I tried two different GFCI's and got the same result.
What's up with that?

If this is normal operation, then I'm going to be very limited as to
where I place my sensors since I appear to be restricted by both
distance and receptacle type.

My new toys aren't making me happy!

The older 2 wire X10 devices keep some current flowing through the
filament all the time. *The latest non-X10 devices all use a neutral
and completly un-power the bulb at fully dim or off.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Contrary to the claims of it being a toy, I have been using
essentially the same X10 settup Derby is attempting for 2 years.
It's used to turn on lights outside the garage when motion is detected
and to turn the front door lights on at dusk and off at dawn. *All
that is done with the outdoor motion detector, the wireless
transceiver, and two wall switches.

==

Some key differences:

The transceiver is located at an outlet in the garage which is only
about 5 feet away from the outdoor motion sensor. * Had I known Derby
wanted to use it at ranges greater than 50ft, I would have said that I
doubt it is capable of those ranges. *The initial application we were
talking about was to turn front door lights on/off with a motion
detector. * Nothing about that suggested the need for a long range.

trader4,

Please don't take any of this the wrong way, since I really appreciate
the help you given me so far.

I guess I should have paid more attention to your statement:

"The wireless unit transmits a signal that is received by a small
module that you plug in to any *nearby* AC outlet in the house."

Apparently the word "nearby" held more of a literal meaning than I
realized!

Yes I did say nearby. * Going back to your initial description of the
application:

"
My dad asked me to replace the light next to his front door with a
motion sensing unit. He bought a stock fixture from HD with the
sensor
built into the fixture. There is no way to aim the sensor, it just
points straight out from the front of the fixture.

The approach to their front door is straight up a ~40' walkway from
the sidewalk. Even set at the highest sensitivity, which should allow
for a ~30' range, the light doesn't come on until the person is right
at the stoop, ready to lift their leg onto the first step.

However, if you walk across the yard the light will come on anywhere
in the 5' to 30'+ range. In fact, 1 out 3 cars going down the street
activate the light.

Unfortunately, "across the coverage area" is not how they (or anyone
else) would approach their front door.

What kind of fixture/sensor does he need so that it will pick up
people walking straight towards it? "

==

From that description I took it that you are activating a typical
front door light with a 75 or 100 watt bulb, intended to provide light
as people get within 10 to 20 ft of the steps. *The problem seemed to
be that the motion light you had only activated when people were right
at the actual porch steps. *And such a porch light isn't going to do
anything to provide light 40 ft down the sidewalk. *You'd need a
150Watt flood aimed from the porch down the sidewalk, right into
peoples eyes to provide light 40 ft out. * Either that or a light
located somewhere other than the front door.

==

This may not have been clear, but it's not as much an issue of
lighting the pathway as much as it's lighting the stoop. Since the
stoop is set back from the street as described in one of my other
posts, the fixture next to the door is sufficient. Street lights
handle the walkway, but for safety and convenience the steps and door
need lighting.

==


*So, I assumed you would be mounting the motion sensor facing across
the walkway somewhere along the sidewalk, maybe 20 ft out, not
necessarily close to the end of the 40 ft sidewalk.

From this part:

"BTW, it's an old brick house with a shallow box for the fixture cut
into the brick. A one-for-one swap is easy, but mounting a separate
sensor someplace else and running wires back to the fixture would be a
pain. I'd really prefer something built into the fixture if possible.

==

I didn't pay close attention to the brick wall part or think of it's
implications. * Had I thought that part through, it probably would
have dawned on me that it will indeed reduce the range of wireless
compared to vinyl or wood walls. *For that I appologize.

Are there any windows nearby? * If you can get a path from motion
detector to transceiver through a window instead of brick, or through
the front door unless it's steel, that should make a big difference.
Also, any chance of putting the transceiver in the attic near the
front door?

==

I'll have to see about windows. as far as the attic, I don't think so.
It's a crawl space attic and I seriously doubt there's an outlet in
there. Beside, since my parents are in their 80's, I wouldn't want to
have any of these components in a spot where they could access them if
there were any problems.

==

Based on the distance I described in my OP (30' - 40') I doubt I'll be
able to mount the sensor in a location that will cover the walkway and
also be "nearby" an AC outlet, especially considering that there's a
brick wall then plaster/lath wall to consider.

I'm having trouble getting through vinyl siding and an unfinished
garage wall from more than 10' - 15'

In addition, the nearest outlet is in the living room room which would
mean that the considerable "click" the RR501 makes will be an
annoyance.

For some people that's a feature, as now you have a click when the
motion sensor on the front door is activated. *But I agree, if you're
sensitive to it then it can be a valid issue.

I was hoping to be able to place the RR501 in the basement
based on the 100' spec I found at the X10-Wiki site.

==

Have you actually tried it at all yet in the intended use at your
Dad's house?

==

Buried somewhere in the previous thread is the issue that Dad lives
300 miles away. That is why I bought enough components to install and
test the set up at my house first.

==
I'll have to play around next time I go to Dad's and see if I can find
suitable locations for both units.

Also, with outlets being everywhere, for most apps I would think you'd
have an outlet available for the transceiver to plug in that is not
too far away and with only one wall separation. * I do agree that they
should make the specs and limitations on distance better known. * But
those limitations aren't unique to X10 and exist with a lot of
wireless devices, let alone one that cost $10.

Again, the use of the words "not too far away" is very relative.

I mean this in the nicest way, but I'd like to suggest that the next
time you describe the use of X10, you be a bit more specific. Keep in
mind that as newbies, we don't know what "nearby or "not too far away"

==

I mean this in the nicest way too. *I'd suggest that in the future, if
you don't know what is meant by any terms that are unclear, just ask.

==

Which I did when I didn't understand what you meant by "controller".
However, the specs for the sensors said the range was 100' with no
mention of walls being an issue. When you said "nearby" and "not too
far", I had no reason to question what that meant. Instead of asking,
I went and looked up the distance specs.

==
We are talking wireless here and with any wireless products there are
distance limitations. *When I get a chance I'll test mine and see how
far the wireless range is.

==

Agreed, which is why I went looking for the specs for the devices.
Unfortunately, as I now know, the published specs are a load of crap.

Worse case you can just put the X10 stuff back on Ebay and resell it.

On Sep 18, 5:39*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
I installed someX10components today and have someissues.

First, it's interesting that the specs for the MS16A Wireless MotionSensorgiven on theX10site make no mention of the transmission
range. Wouldn't you think that that is a pretty important number to
know?

http://www.x10.com/products/x10_ms16a.htm

However, you can find them here and they state the transmission range
is100'.

http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/MS16A

Using the test buttons on thesensor, I can trigger an RR501 receiver
consistently within 40', intermittently within 40' - 50' and not at
all above 50' - and that's with nothing obstructing the line of site
between the two units.

Put a garage wall between them, and I'm limited to a max of about 25',
less than 15' in some locations.

I've tried 2 different MS16A units and 2 different RR501's and got the
same results. Yes, they were brand new batteries. I even tested them
to eliminate the batteries as the problem.

Next issue: When using the dimmer feature of the WS4777 3-way switch
or WS467 single switch, the bulbs do not dim to nothing. You can still
see the light in a 65W outdoor spot even when the sun is up. I don't
know how often I'd want to dim them to nothing, but I'm just wondering
if that is normal.

Lastly (for now) I seemed to get inconsistant operation of the system
when the RR501 were plugged into GFCI outlets. They seemed to work
about 90% of the time, but every now and then the test buttons on the
sensors wouldn't do anything even if I was standing right in front of
the RR501. If I move the RR501 to a standard receptacle it starts
working again. I tried two different GFCI's and got the same result.
What's up with that?

If this is normal operation, then I'm going to be very limited as to
where I place my sensors since I appear to be restricted by both
distance and receptacle type.

My new toys aren't making me happy!

Just an quick update.

I've been playing around with the best compromise for sensor vs.
receiver locations for my driveway.

The receiver is mounted on the back wall of the garage. I held the
sensor up against the outside front wall of the garage where it was
almost directly in line with the receiver and then pressed the test
buttons. Press - Click, the lights went on, Press-Click, the lights
went off. This worked multiple times.

I moved the sensor lest than 18" to the right and tested it again.
Press - Click, the lights went on, Press , press, press - nothing, the
lights won't turn off. I moved it back to the left about 6 inches,
Press - Click the light went off. On, off, on, off, no problem.

Move it 6 inches to the right and I get On only, never any Off.

Is the Off signal weaker than the On signal? Probably not, so it must
be a frequency interference issue.

I look inside the garage, and find that the spot where it won't turn
the light off is right in the middle of an empty stud bay. However,
the spot where it works has a king stud, some brackets for the garage
door rails, etc. In other words there's more stuff in between the 2
units in the spot where it works vs where it only responds to the On
command.

What's up with that?

On Fri, 24 Sep 2010 12:59:02 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Sep 18, 5:39*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
I installed someX10components today and have someissues.

First, it's interesting that the specs for the MS16A Wireless MotionSensorgiven on theX10site make no mention of the transmission
range. Wouldn't you think that that is a pretty important number to
know?

http://www.x10.com/products/x10_ms16a.htm

However, you can find them here and they state the transmission range
is100'.

http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/MS16A

Using the test buttons on thesensor, I can trigger an RR501 receiver
consistently within 40', intermittently within 40' - 50' and not at
all above 50' - and that's with nothing obstructing the line of site
between the two units.

Put a garage wall between them, and I'm limited to a max of about 25',
less than 15' in some locations.

I've tried 2 different MS16A units and 2 different RR501's and got the
same results. Yes, they were brand new batteries. I even tested them
to eliminate the batteries as the problem.

Next issue: When using the dimmer feature of the WS4777 3-way switch
or WS467 single switch, the bulbs do not dim to nothing. You can still
see the light in a 65W outdoor spot even when the sun is up. I don't
know how often I'd want to dim them to nothing, but I'm just wondering
if that is normal.

Lastly (for now) I seemed to get inconsistant operation of the system
when the RR501 were plugged into GFCI outlets. They seemed to work
about 90% of the time, but every now and then the test buttons on the
sensors wouldn't do anything even if I was standing right in front of
the RR501. If I move the RR501 to a standard receptacle it starts
working again. I tried two different GFCI's and got the same result.
What's up with that?

If this is normal operation, then I'm going to be very limited as to
where I place my sensors since I appear to be restricted by both
distance and receptacle type.

My new toys aren't making me happy!

Just an quick update.

I've been playing around with the best compromise for sensor vs.
receiver locations for my driveway.

The receiver is mounted on the back wall of the garage. I held the
sensor up against the outside front wall of the garage where it was
almost directly in line with the receiver and then pressed the test
buttons. Press - Click, the lights went on, Press-Click, the lights
went off. This worked multiple times.

I moved the sensor lest than 18" to the right and tested it again.
Press - Click, the lights went on, Press , press, press - nothing, the
lights won't turn off. I moved it back to the left about 6 inches,
Press - Click the light went off. On, off, on, off, no problem.

Move it 6 inches to the right and I get On only, never any Off.

Is the Off signal weaker than the On signal? Probably not, so it must
be a frequency interference issue.

I look inside the garage, and find that the spot where it won't turn
the light off is right in the middle of an empty stud bay. However,
the spot where it works has a king stud, some brackets for the garage
door rails, etc. In other words there's more stuff in between the 2
units in the spot where it works vs where it only responds to the On
command.

What's up with that?
Sometimes when "on" works, but "off" doesn't, the cause is noise
coming from the whatever device is being controlled. For example,
florescent lights (regular or compact florescent) can create power
line and/or RF noise that interferes. No noise when off, but once
they turn on, they interfere thereby keeping the off from working.

On Sep 24, 6:13*pm, wrote:
On Fri, 24 Sep 2010 12:59:02 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03



wrote:
On Sep 18, 5:39*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
I installed someX10components today and have someissues.

First, it's interesting that the specs for the MS16A Wireless MotionSensorgiven on theX10site make no mention of the transmission
range. Wouldn't you think that that is a pretty important number to
know?

http://www.x10.com/products/x10_ms16a.htm

However, you can find them here and they state the transmission range
is100'.

http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/MS16A

Using the test buttons on thesensor, I can trigger an RR501 receiver
consistently within 40', intermittently within 40' - 50' and not at
all above 50' - and that's with nothing obstructing the line of site
between the two units.

Put a garage wall between them, and I'm limited to a max of about 25',
less than 15' in some locations.

I've tried 2 different MS16A units and 2 different RR501's and got the
same results. Yes, they were brand new batteries. I even tested them
to eliminate the batteries as the problem.

Next issue: When using the dimmer feature of the WS4777 3-way switch
or WS467 single switch, the bulbs do not dim to nothing. You can still
see the light in a 65W outdoor spot even when the sun is up. I don't
know how often I'd want to dim them to nothing, but I'm just wondering
if that is normal.

Lastly (for now) I seemed to get inconsistant operation of the system
when the RR501 were plugged into GFCI outlets. They seemed to work
about 90% of the time, but every now and then the test buttons on the
sensors wouldn't do anything even if I was standing right in front of
the RR501. If I move the RR501 to a standard receptacle it starts
working again. I tried two different GFCI's and got the same result.
What's up with that?

If this is normal operation, then I'm going to be very limited as to
where I place my sensors since I appear to be restricted by both
distance and receptacle type.

My new toys aren't making me happy!

Just an quick update.

I've been playing around with the best compromise for sensor vs.
receiver locations for my driveway.

The receiver is mounted on the back wall of the garage. I held the
sensor up against the outside front wall of the garage where it was
almost directly in line with the receiver and then pressed the test
buttons. Press - Click, the lights went on, Press-Click, the lights
went off. This worked multiple times.

I moved the sensor lest than 18" to the right and tested it again.
Press - Click, the lights went on, Press , press, press - nothing, the
lights won't turn off. I moved it back to the left about 6 inches,
Press - Click the light went off. On, off, on, off, no problem.

Move it 6 inches to the right and I get On only, never any Off.

Is the Off signal weaker than the On signal? Probably not, so it must
be a frequency interference issue.

I look inside the garage, and find that the spot where it won't turn
the light off is right in the middle of an empty stud bay. However,
the spot where it works has a king stud, some brackets for the garage
door rails, etc. In other words there's more stuff in between the 2
units in the spot where it works vs where it only responds to the On
command.

What's up with that?

Sometimes when "on" works, but "off" doesn't, the cause is noise
coming from the whatever device is being controlled. *For example,
florescent lights (regular or compact florescent) can create power
line and/or RF noise that interferes. *No noise when off, but once
they turn on, they interfere thereby keeping the off from working.

Thanks, but I'm using standard incandescent outdoor spots and a
standard incandescent bulb in a fixture.

Everything has been working fine for the last week and continues to
work now that I put the sensor back to where it's been all week.

I'm sure we'll agree that the placement of the sensor 1 foot to the
right isn't going to introduce noise into either fixture, so I'm
guessing noise isn't the issue here.

However, I'd like some clarification on your point for future
reference.

When you say "thereby keeping the off from working" do mean that the
RR501 will make it's audible Click but the lights won't go off or do
mean that the RR501 won't even Click.

On 9/24/2010 3:59 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sep 18, 5:39 pm, wrote:
I installed someX10components today and have someissues.

First, it's interesting that the specs for the MS16A Wireless MotionSensorgiven on theX10site make no mention of the transmission
range. Wouldn't you think that that is a pretty important number to
know?

http://www.x10.com/products/x10_ms16a.htm

However, you can find them here and they state the transmission range
is100'.

http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/MS16A

Using the test buttons on thesensor, I can trigger an RR501 receiver
consistently within 40', intermittently within 40' - 50' and not at
all above 50' - and that's with nothing obstructing the line of site
between the two units.

Put a garage wall between them, and I'm limited to a max of about 25',
less than 15' in some locations.

I've tried 2 different MS16A units and 2 different RR501's and got the
same results. Yes, they were brand new batteries. I even tested them
to eliminate the batteries as the problem.

Next issue: When using the dimmer feature of the WS4777 3-way switch
or WS467 single switch, the bulbs do not dim to nothing. You can still
see the light in a 65W outdoor spot even when the sun is up. I don't
know how often I'd want to dim them to nothing, but I'm just wondering
if that is normal.

Lastly (for now) I seemed to get inconsistant operation of the system
when the RR501 were plugged into GFCI outlets. They seemed to work
about 90% of the time, but every now and then the test buttons on the
sensors wouldn't do anything even if I was standing right in front of
the RR501. If I move the RR501 to a standard receptacle it starts
working again. I tried two different GFCI's and got the same result.
What's up with that?

If this is normal operation, then I'm going to be very limited as to
where I place my sensors since I appear to be restricted by both
distance and receptacle type.

My new toys aren't making me happy!

Just an quick update.

I've been playing around with the best compromise for sensor vs.
receiver locations for my driveway.

The receiver is mounted on the back wall of the garage. I held the
sensor up against the outside front wall of the garage where it was
almost directly in line with the receiver and then pressed the test
buttons. Press - Click, the lights went on, Press-Click, the lights
went off. This worked multiple times.

I moved the sensor lest than 18" to the right and tested it again.
Press - Click, the lights went on, Press , press, press - nothing, the
lights won't turn off. I moved it back to the left about 6 inches,
Press - Click the light went off. On, off, on, off, no problem.

Move it 6 inches to the right and I get On only, never any Off.

Is the Off signal weaker than the On signal? Probably not, so it must
be a frequency interference issue.

I look inside the garage, and find that the spot where it won't turn
the light off is right in the middle of an empty stud bay. However,
the spot where it works has a king stud, some brackets for the garage
door rails, etc. In other words there's more stuff in between the 2
units in the spot where it works vs where it only responds to the On
command.

What's up with that?

From experience you are fighting a loosing battle trying to make the
toy store receiver work. If you want something that will pretty much
work buy a better receiver. Once you install it you will wonder why you
wasted and continue to waste time with the toy version because you may
tinker and get it going and then there is tomorrow when it won't.

On Fri, 24 Sep 2010 16:14:11 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Sep 24, 6:13*pm, wrote:
On Fri, 24 Sep 2010 12:59:02 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03



wrote:
On Sep 18, 5:39*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
I installed someX10components today and have someissues.

First, it's interesting that the specs for the MS16A Wireless MotionSensorgiven on theX10site make no mention of the transmission
range. Wouldn't you think that that is a pretty important number to
know?

http://www.x10.com/products/x10_ms16a.htm

However, you can find them here and they state the transmission range
is100'.

http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/MS16A

Using the test buttons on thesensor, I can trigger an RR501 receiver
consistently within 40', intermittently within 40' - 50' and not at
all above 50' - and that's with nothing obstructing the line of site
between the two units.

Put a garage wall between them, and I'm limited to a max of about 25',
less than 15' in some locations.

I've tried 2 different MS16A units and 2 different RR501's and got the
same results. Yes, they were brand new batteries. I even tested them
to eliminate the batteries as the problem.

Next issue: When using the dimmer feature of the WS4777 3-way switch
or WS467 single switch, the bulbs do not dim to nothing. You can still
see the light in a 65W outdoor spot even when the sun is up. I don't
know how often I'd want to dim them to nothing, but I'm just wondering
if that is normal.

Lastly (for now) I seemed to get inconsistant operation of the system
when the RR501 were plugged into GFCI outlets. They seemed to work
about 90% of the time, but every now and then the test buttons on the
sensors wouldn't do anything even if I was standing right in front of
the RR501. If I move the RR501 to a standard receptacle it starts
working again. I tried two different GFCI's and got the same result.
What's up with that?

If this is normal operation, then I'm going to be very limited as to
where I place my sensors since I appear to be restricted by both
distance and receptacle type.

My new toys aren't making me happy!

Just an quick update.

I've been playing around with the best compromise for sensor vs.
receiver locations for my driveway.

The receiver is mounted on the back wall of the garage. I held the
sensor up against the outside front wall of the garage where it was
almost directly in line with the receiver and then pressed the test
buttons. Press - Click, the lights went on, Press-Click, the lights
went off. This worked multiple times.

I moved the sensor lest than 18" to the right and tested it again.
Press - Click, the lights went on, Press , press, press - nothing, the
lights won't turn off. I moved it back to the left about 6 inches,
Press - Click the light went off. On, off, on, off, no problem.

Move it 6 inches to the right and I get On only, never any Off.

Is the Off signal weaker than the On signal? Probably not, so it must
be a frequency interference issue.

I look inside the garage, and find that the spot where it won't turn
the light off is right in the middle of an empty stud bay. However,
the spot where it works has a king stud, some brackets for the garage
door rails, etc. In other words there's more stuff in between the 2
units in the spot where it works vs where it only responds to the On
command.

What's up with that?

Sometimes when "on" works, but "off" doesn't, the cause is noise
coming from the whatever device is being controlled. *For example,
florescent lights (regular or compact florescent) can create power
line and/or RF noise that interferes. *No noise when off, but once
they turn on, they interfere thereby keeping the off from working.

Thanks, but I'm using standard incandescent outdoor spots and a
standard incandescent bulb in a fixture.

Everything has been working fine for the last week and continues to
work now that I put the sensor back to where it's been all week.

I'm sure we'll agree that the placement of the sensor 1 foot to the
right isn't going to introduce noise into either fixture, so I'm
guessing noise isn't the issue here.

However, I'd like some clarification on your point for future
reference.

When you say "thereby keeping the off from working" do mean that the
RR501 will make it's audible Click but the lights won't go off or do
mean that the RR501 won't even Click.


It won't even click if the noise is RF noise that prevents the RF
signal from getting to the receiver. If power line noise is involved,
the receiver will click (if you are using unit code for the built-in
applicance module), but the x-10 power line command sent by the RF
receiver will get blocked before doing it's job.

If you are only using the RR501 as a receiver with built-in appliance
module, then power line noise has nothing to do with it and the
audible click means it is working.

On Sep 18, 5:39*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
I installed someX10components today and have someissues.

First, it's interesting that the specs for the MS16A Wireless Motion
Sensor given on theX10site make no mention of the transmission
range. Wouldn't you think that that is a pretty important number to
know?

http://www.x10.com/products/x10_ms16a.htm

However, you can find them here and they state the transmission range
is 100'.

http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/MS16A

Using the test buttons on the sensor, I can trigger an RR501 receiver
consistently within 40', intermittently within 40' - 50' and not at
all above 50' - and that's with nothing obstructing the line of site
between the two units.

Put a garage wall between them, and I'm limited to a max of about 25',
less than 15' in some locations.

I've tried 2 different MS16A units and 2 different RR501's and got the
same results. Yes, they were brand new batteries. I even tested them
to eliminate the batteries as the problem.

Next issue: When using the dimmer feature of the WS4777 3-way switch
or WS467 single switch, the bulbs do not dim to nothing. You can still
see the light in a 65W outdoor spot even when the sun is up. I don't
know how often I'd want to dim them to nothing, but I'm just wondering
if that is normal.

Lastly (for now) I seemed to get inconsistant operation of the system
when the RR501 were plugged into GFCI outlets. They seemed to work
about 90% of the time, but every now and then the test buttons on the
sensors wouldn't do anything even if I was standing right in front of
the RR501. If I move the RR501 to a standard receptacle it starts
working again. I tried two different GFCI's and got the same result.
What's up with that?

If this is normal operation, then I'm going to be very limited as to
where I place my sensors since I appear to be restricted by both
distance and receptacle type.

My new toys aren't making me happy!

....Vent mode on...

My simple 1 sensor, 1 receiver, 2 light system is about to be ripped
out.

One light is on a 3 way switch, the other is on a single switch. The 2
switches are in the same box, but on different circuits. The receiver
is plugged into a receptacle on the circuit with the 3 way.

Intermittently, the single switched light does not come on when the
system is triggered by the sensor but the 2-way light always does.
Intermittently, whether one light or both are on, they (or it) stay
on, even after the time period set on the sensor has past. I'm pretty
sure it's not a "movement" issue because the lights have gone off in
windy conditions, but stay on (sometimes) under the calmest
conditions.

I know that some people have said that they love this X10 stuff and
operate a number of fixtures in various configurations with it, but if
it's so quirky that it can't work consistently with my simple set up,
I've got no need for it.

....Vent mode off...

On Oct 4, 6:50*pm, "Twayne" wrote:
,
DerbyDad03 typed:

On Sep 18, 5:39 pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
I installed someX10components today and have someissues.

First, it's interesting that the specs for the MS16A
Wireless Motion Sensor given on theX10site make no mention
of the transmission
range. Wouldn't you think that that is a pretty important
number to know?
==

First, it definietly DOES give you a link to the proper page, which is:http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/MS16A


That's the same link I posted below.

I must have missed it, so please show me where on http://www.x10.com/products/x10_ms16a.htm
it has a link to http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/MS16A





http://www.x10.com/products/x10_ms16a.htm




However, you can find them here and they state the
transmission range is 100'.

http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/MS16A

On that page: The specify the beam range as 20 ft at Normal incidence, less
as you angle off that plane. Even shows best mountng location and height, so
it activates the most reliably.

I wasn't questioning the detection range or the mounting location, I
was questioning the distance that the sensor could be from the RR501
to turn it on and off. On the wiki page noted. It says:

Transmission Range
100ft.

Does that not mean that the sensor can be placed up to 100 feet from
the RR501? (We know that in reality it can't be, but isn't that what
that specification is supposed to indicate? If not, what does the
Transmission Range of 100ft mean?



YOu're missing something someplace; check it again - scroll down to the
image that has those details on them. 100 ft is for IR Tx range.

HTH,

Twayne`


See my question above.


Using the test buttons on the sensor, I can trigger an
RR501 receiver consistently within 40', intermittently
within 40' - 50' and not at all above 50' - and that's
with nothing obstructing the line of site between the two
units.

Put a garage wall between them, and I'm limited to a max
of about 25', less than 15' in some locations.

Infrared is line of sight; move your module to nearer the sensor and then
use the house wiring to get it to your controls, etc.. *See Installation
instructions.

Exactly what I'm doing.


I've tried 2 different MS16A units and 2 different RR501's
and got the same results. Yes, they were brand new
batteries. I even tested them to eliminate the batteries
as the problem.

As would be expected. Mine works perfectly - using 3 total R detectors.

I'd recommend you take these questions to the X10 forum where at least more
than onr or two people are gong to know what you're talking about. You
questions are all answered on the wiki or installation or product sheets.



Next issue: When using the dimmer feature of the WS4777
3-way switch or WS467 single switch, the bulbs do not dim
to nothing. You can still see the light in a 65W outdoor
spot even when the sun is up. I don't know how often I'd
want to dim them to nothing, but I'm just wondering if
that is normal.

No. Properly installed, they will dim to nothing. Somehow you have probably
put them on the dmmer switch control (A4). You probably also have a switch
ni the line that isn't X10; the switch shouldn't be used or should be an X10
switch.


Other have said they do not dim to zero. There are no other switches
that control those lights other than the X10 switches. There are other
switches for other lights on those circuits, since they are not
dedicated circuits, but no other switches for those devices. Are you
saying that you can't have another switched light on the same circuit
that an X10 controlled light is on? I hope not.


Lastly (for now) I seemed to get inconsistant operation of
the system when the RR501 were plugged into GFCI outlets.
They seemed to work about 90% of the time, but every now
and then the test buttons on the sensors wouldn't do
anything even if I was standing right in front of the
RR501. If I move the RR501 to a standard receptacle it
starts working again. I tried two different GFCI's and got
the same result. What's up with that?

Check with the forum; too much to explain.



If this is normal operation, then I'm going to be very
limited as to where I place my sensors since I appear to
be restricted by both distance and receptacle type.

My new toys aren't making me happy!

...Vent mode on...

My simple 1 sensor, 1 receiver, 2 light system is about to
be ripped out.

Rip 'em out if you can't figure out how to use them and where best to get
help with them, which is going to be X10.



One light is on a 3 way switch, the other is on a single
switch. The 2 switches are in the same box, but on
different circuits. The receiver is plugged into a
receptacle on the circuit with the 3 way.

Sorry; doesn't make sense to me.

1 - Spot light over garage door, on the garage circuit, controlled by
a X10 3 way Master switch (WS477) in the living room and an X10 3 way
Companion switch (CS277) in the garage.

2 - Entry light over the entry door, on a living room circuit,
controlled by a X10 single switch (WS467) in the living room.

The WS477 and WS467 are in the same box in the living room, but are on
different circuits.

All three switches are set to respond to a single RR501 that is
plugged into the garage circuit.

A single MS16A speaks to the RR501 in the hope that both the garage
door light and entry door light will come on when someone walks up the
driveway.

I don't know if this enters into the situation at all, but the circuit
for the single switch entry light is part of a multi-wire (Edison)
circuit. It's interesting that this is the light that doesn't always
come up when the RR501 fires. The spot over the garage, which is on
the same circuit as the RR501, comes on 100% of the time when the
MS16A signals the RR501. The entry light, on the multi-wire circuit,
comes on about 75% of the time.



Intermittently, the single switched light does not come on
when the system is triggered by the sensor but the 2-way
light always does. Intermittently, whether one light or
both are on, they (or it) stay on, even after the time
period set on the sensor has past. I'm pretty sure it's not
a "movement" issue because the lights have gone off in
windy conditions, but stay on (sometimes) under the calmest
conditions.

I know that some people have said that they love this X10
stuff and operate a number of fixtures in various
configurations with it, but if it's so quirky that it can't
work consistently with my simple set up, I've got no need
for it.

Your real problem is not reading or not comprehending the installation and
test sequences for these things, I think.

I have read the instructions, I have followed the test sequences. I
have gotten proper operation of the system, probably 75% of the time.
However, above and beyond all that, I have gotten confirmation from
members of this group as well as other sources - including an engineer
at a company developing a home automation hardware/software system -
that X10 is quirky and that many, many things can cause it to act
strangely.


I have a number of socket rockets,
PIR sensors, modules for AV equipment, remote for AV equpment, and will be
adding a couple more. This is because I am disabled and like to be able to
hit "All OFF" without gong around to check that all the lights etc. are off.
Got the shower room and bathroom left to put IR sensors in.

I'm glad you have got a working system


HTH,

Twayne`

...Vent mode off...

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
On Sep 18, 5:39 pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
I installed someX10components today and have someissues.

First, it's interesting that the specs for the MS16A Wireless Motion
Sensor given on theX10site make no mention of the transmission
range. Wouldn't you think that that is a pretty important number to
know?

http://www.x10.com/products/x10_ms16a.htm

However, you can find them here and they state the transmission range
is 100'.

http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/MS16A

Using the test buttons on the sensor, I can trigger an RR501 receiver
consistently within 40', intermittently within 40' - 50' and not at
all above 50' - and that's with nothing obstructing the line of site
between the two units.

Put a garage wall between them, and I'm limited to a max of about 25',
less than 15' in some locations.

I've tried 2 different MS16A units and 2 different RR501's and got the
same results. Yes, they were brand new batteries. I even tested them
to eliminate the batteries as the problem.

Next issue: When using the dimmer feature of the WS4777 3-way switch
or WS467 single switch, the bulbs do not dim to nothing. You can still
see the light in a 65W outdoor spot even when the sun is up. I don't
know how often I'd want to dim them to nothing, but I'm just wondering
if that is normal.

Lastly (for now) I seemed to get inconsistant operation of the system
when the RR501 were plugged into GFCI outlets. They seemed to work
about 90% of the time, but every now and then the test buttons on the
sensors wouldn't do anything even if I was standing right in front of
the RR501. If I move the RR501 to a standard receptacle it starts
working again. I tried two different GFCI's and got the same result.
What's up with that?

If this is normal operation, then I'm going to be very limited as to
where I place my sensors since I appear to be restricted by both
distance and receptacle type.

My new toys aren't making me happy!

...Vent mode on...

My simple 1 sensor, 1 receiver, 2 light system is about to be ripped
out.

One light is on a 3 way switch, the other is on a single switch. The 2
switches are in the same box, but on different circuits. The receiver
is plugged into a receptacle on the circuit with the 3 way.

Intermittently, the single switched light does not come on when the
system is triggered by the sensor but the 2-way light always does.
Intermittently, whether one light or both are on, they (or it) stay
on, even after the time period set on the sensor has past. I'm pretty
sure it's not a "movement" issue because the lights have gone off in
windy conditions, but stay on (sometimes) under the calmest
conditions.

I know that some people have said that they love this X10 stuff and
operate a number of fixtures in various configurations with it, but if
it's so quirky that it can't work consistently with my simple set up,
I've got no need for it.

....Vent mode off...

I don't know how I missed this when you first posted it but I did, so here's
my late response.

I'm sorry that your X-10 experience was not good. Twenty years ago, you
would have had few if any problems. However X-10 has barely kept up with
the changes in the modern home's internal 110VAC wiring. Ironically, I
would still advocate X-10 for large home installations. It's absolutely
great "bang for the buck" stuff - there's nothing cheaper or more
versatile - but for even the simplest installations you usually need a
coupler/booster; there's just no way around it. I was just about to dump
$2K plus in X-10 gear before I stumbled on the WGL transceiver and the XTB
signal boosters. A light that turns on intermittently is even worse than no
automation at all.

There are too many noisemakers in the modern home for a 5V X-10 signal to
make it through reliably. As you've discovered X-10 can be so twitchy that
it can turn light X on remotely but fail to turn it off. That's very
disconcerting because it's so counterintuitive and it renders the technology
unusable, for the most part. It's definitely NOT for anyone who doesn't
really like to (choose any):

a) tinker with gadgets
b) fuss with settings
c) play with electronic doodads
d) run around the house screaming WHY WON'T THE F*(KING LIGHT TURN OFF!!!?

X-10 is a challenge because there's so much more noise on the powerline
these days. I've got gear (PC power supplies) that can even stop a 25V
signal (noisy switching power supplies). While buying a booster pays off
for big installs, it clearly doesn't make sense for a one-off situation like
your dad's.

I'd recommend X-10 only in tandem with the XTB and WGL boosters for anyone
wanting to automate on the cheap. You can get great stuff on Ebay that
lowers you "per load" cost to well under $10. I know some people don't
blink at paying over $100 for a wall switch but I'm not one of them. Look at
the upside: You've gotten some hands-on experience with X-10 and learned
about its capabilities. If you ever want to do a whole house in X-10 you
at least know the issues you'll be facing.

And you know exactly why I recommended a stand-alone unit for the light
control problem you had in the beginning. While it's a simple task for an
all-in-one device, doing it with X-10 exposes you to a number of serious
problems in the "stock" protocol. RF signals too weak to punch through
interference and that don't deliver the claimed range and powerline signals
that suffer from the same problems. Too much noise on the powerline for a
stock 5V X-10 signal to penetrate. Boost that to 25+V and suddenly X-10
behaves very nicely. Once you get used to having X-10, staying in a house
that has no automation is like being away from the computer. I knew in
short order what a technojunkie I've become. Worse, still, you tend to push
it on people who have absolutely no use for it. Until they turn on the
floodlights from a bedside keyfob for the first time. Then they're like Tim
Allen on Tooltime.

--
Bobby G.

On Oct 27, 8:47*pm, "Robert Green" wrote:
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message

...
On Sep 18, 5:39 pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:



I installed someX10components today and have someissues.

First, it's interesting that the specs for the MS16A Wireless Motion
Sensor given on theX10site make no mention of the transmission
range. Wouldn't you think that that is a pretty important number to
know?

http://www.x10.com/products/x10_ms16a.htm

However, you can find them here and they state the transmission range
is 100'.

http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/MS16A

Using the test buttons on the sensor, I can trigger an RR501 receiver
consistently within 40', intermittently within 40' - 50' and not at
all above 50' - and that's with nothing obstructing the line of site
between the two units.

Put a garage wall between them, and I'm limited to a max of about 25',
less than 15' in some locations.

I've tried 2 different MS16A units and 2 different RR501's and got the
same results. Yes, they were brand new batteries. I even tested them
to eliminate the batteries as the problem.

Next issue: When using the dimmer feature of the WS4777 3-way switch
or WS467 single switch, the bulbs do not dim to nothing. You can still
see the light in a 65W outdoor spot even when the sun is up. I don't
know how often I'd want to dim them to nothing, but I'm just wondering
if that is normal.

Lastly (for now) I seemed to get inconsistant operation of the system
when the RR501 were plugged into GFCI outlets. They seemed to work
about 90% of the time, but every now and then the test buttons on the
sensors wouldn't do anything even if I was standing right in front of
the RR501. If I move the RR501 to a standard receptacle it starts
working again. I tried two different GFCI's and got the same result.
What's up with that?

If this is normal operation, then I'm going to be very limited as to
where I place my sensors since I appear to be restricted by both
distance and receptacle type.

My new toys aren't making me happy!

...Vent mode on...

My simple 1 sensor, 1 receiver, 2 light system is about to be ripped
out.

One light is on a 3 way switch, the other is on a single switch. The 2
switches are in the same box, but on different circuits. The receiver
is plugged into a receptacle on the circuit with the 3 way.

Intermittently, the single switched light does not come on when the
system is triggered by the sensor but the 2-way light always does.
Intermittently, whether one light or both are on, they (or it) stay
on, even after the time period set on the sensor has past. I'm pretty
sure it's not a "movement" issue because the lights have gone off in
windy conditions, but stay on (sometimes) under the calmest
conditions.

I know that some people have said that they love this X10 stuff and
operate a number of fixtures in various configurations with it, but if
it's so quirky that it can't work consistently with my simple set up,
I've got no need for it.

...Vent mode off...

I don't know how I missed this when you first posted it but I did, so here's
my late response.

I'm sorry that your X-10 experience was not good. *Twenty years ago, you
would have had few if any problems. *However X-10 has barely kept up with
the changes in the modern home's internal 110VAC wiring. *Ironically, I
would still advocate X-10 for large home installations. *It's absolutely
great "bang for the buck" stuff - there's nothing cheaper or more
versatile - but for even the simplest installations you usually need a
coupler/booster; *there's just no way around it. *I was just about to dump
$2K plus in X-10 gear before I stumbled on the WGL transceiver and the XTB
signal boosters. *A light that turns on intermittently is even worse than no
automation at all.

There are too many noisemakers in the modern home for a 5V X-10 signal to
make it through reliably. As you've discovered X-10 can be so twitchy that
it can turn light X on remotely but fail to turn it off. * That's very
disconcerting because it's so counterintuitive and it renders the technology
unusable, for the most part. *It's definitely NOT for anyone who doesn't
really like to (choose any):

a) tinker with gadgets
b) fuss with settings
c) play with electronic doodads
d) run around the house screaming WHY WON'T THE F*(KING LIGHT TURN OFF!!!?

X-10 is a challenge because there's so much more noise on the powerline
these days. *I've got gear (PC power supplies) that can even stop a 25V
signal (noisy switching power supplies). * While buying a booster pays off
for big installs, it clearly doesn't make sense for a one-off situation like
your dad's.

I'd recommend X-10 only in tandem with the XTB and WGL boosters for anyone
wanting to automate on the cheap. *You can get great stuff on Ebay that
lowers you "per load" cost to well under $10. *I know some people don't
blink at paying over $100 for a wall switch but I'm not one of them. Look at
the upside: *You've *gotten some hands-on experience with X-10 and learned
about its capabilities. * If you ever want to do a whole house in X-10 you
at least know the issues you'll be facing.

And you know exactly why I recommended a stand-alone unit for the light
control problem you had in the beginning. *While it's a simple task for an
all-in-one device, doing it with X-10 exposes you to a number of serious
problems in the "stock" protocol. *RF signals too weak to punch through
interference and that don't deliver the claimed range and powerline signals
that suffer from the same problems. *Too much noise on the powerline for a
stock 5V X-10 signal to penetrate. *Boost that to 25+V and suddenly X-10
behaves very nicely. *Once you get used to having X-10, staying in a house
that has no automation is like being away from the computer. *I knew in
short order what a technojunkie I've become. *Worse, still, you tend to push
it on people who have absolutely no use for it. *Until they turn on the
floodlights from a bedside keyfob for the first time. *Then they're like Tim
Allen on Tooltime.

--
Bobby G.

Can I assume that you are the same Bobby G. who raved about the WGL
unit in Home Toys back in 2008?

On Oct 27, 10:15*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Oct 27, 8:47*pm, "Robert Green" wrote:





"DerbyDad03" wrote in message

...
On Sep 18, 5:39 pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:

I installed someX10components today and have someissues.

First, it's interesting that the specs for the MS16A Wireless Motion
Sensor given on theX10site make no mention of the transmission
range. Wouldn't you think that that is a pretty important number to
know?

http://www.x10.com/products/x10_ms16a.htm

However, you can find them here and they state the transmission range
is 100'.

http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/MS16A

Using the test buttons on the sensor, I can trigger an RR501 receiver
consistently within 40', intermittently within 40' - 50' and not at
all above 50' - and that's with nothing obstructing the line of site
between the two units.

Put a garage wall between them, and I'm limited to a max of about 25',
less than 15' in some locations.

I've tried 2 different MS16A units and 2 different RR501's and got the
same results. Yes, they were brand new batteries. I even tested them
to eliminate the batteries as the problem.

Next issue: When using the dimmer feature of the WS4777 3-way switch
or WS467 single switch, the bulbs do not dim to nothing. You can still
see the light in a 65W outdoor spot even when the sun is up. I don't
know how often I'd want to dim them to nothing, but I'm just wondering
if that is normal.

Lastly (for now) I seemed to get inconsistant operation of the system
when the RR501 were plugged into GFCI outlets. They seemed to work
about 90% of the time, but every now and then the test buttons on the
sensors wouldn't do anything even if I was standing right in front of
the RR501. If I move the RR501 to a standard receptacle it starts
working again. I tried two different GFCI's and got the same result.
What's up with that?

If this is normal operation, then I'm going to be very limited as to
where I place my sensors since I appear to be restricted by both
distance and receptacle type.

My new toys aren't making me happy!

...Vent mode on...

My simple 1 sensor, 1 receiver, 2 light system is about to be ripped
out.

One light is on a 3 way switch, the other is on a single switch. The 2
switches are in the same box, but on different circuits. The receiver
is plugged into a receptacle on the circuit with the 3 way.

Intermittently, the single switched light does not come on when the
system is triggered by the sensor but the 2-way light always does.
Intermittently, whether one light or both are on, they (or it) stay
on, even after the time period set on the sensor has past. I'm pretty
sure it's not a "movement" issue because the lights have gone off in
windy conditions, but stay on (sometimes) under the calmest
conditions.

I know that some people have said that they love this X10 stuff and
operate a number of fixtures in various configurations with it, but if
it's so quirky that it can't work consistently with my simple set up,
I've got no need for it.

...Vent mode off...

I don't know how I missed this when you first posted it but I did, so here's
my late response.

I'm sorry that your X-10 experience was not good. *Twenty years ago, you
would have had few if any problems. *However X-10 has barely kept up with
the changes in the modern home's internal 110VAC wiring. *Ironically, I
would still advocate X-10 for large home installations. *It's absolutely
great "bang for the buck" stuff - there's nothing cheaper or more
versatile - but for even the simplest installations you usually need a
coupler/booster; *there's just no way around it. *I was just about to dump
$2K plus in X-10 gear before I stumbled on the WGL transceiver and the XTB
signal boosters. *A light that turns on intermittently is even worse than no
automation at all.

There are too many noisemakers in the modern home for a 5V X-10 signal to
make it through reliably. As you've discovered X-10 can be so twitchy that
it can turn light X on remotely but fail to turn it off. * That's very
disconcerting because it's so counterintuitive and it renders the technology
unusable, for the most part. *It's definitely NOT for anyone who doesn't
really like to (choose any):

a) tinker with gadgets
b) fuss with settings
c) play with electronic doodads
d) run around the house screaming WHY WON'T THE F*(KING LIGHT TURN OFF!!!?

X-10 is a challenge because there's so much more noise on the powerline
these days. *I've got gear (PC power supplies) that can even stop a 25V
signal (noisy switching power supplies). * While buying a booster pays off
for big installs, it clearly doesn't make sense for a one-off situation like
your dad's.

I'd recommend X-10 only in tandem with the XTB and WGL boosters for anyone
wanting to automate on the cheap. *You can get great stuff on Ebay that
lowers you "per load" cost to well under $10. *I know some people don't
blink at paying over $100 for a wall switch but I'm not one of them. Look at
the upside: *You've *gotten some hands-on experience with X-10 and learned
about its capabilities. * If you ever want to do a whole house in X-10 you
at least know the issues you'll be facing.

And you know exactly why I recommended a stand-alone unit for the light
control problem you had in the beginning. *While it's a simple task for an
all-in-one device, doing it with X-10 exposes you to a number of serious
problems in the "stock" protocol. *RF signals too weak to punch through
interference and that don't deliver the claimed range and powerline signals
that suffer from the same problems. *Too much noise on the powerline for a
stock 5V X-10 signal to penetrate. *Boost that to 25+V and suddenly X-10
behaves very nicely. *Once you get used to having X-10, staying in a house
that has no automation is like being away from the computer. *I knew in
short order what a technojunkie I've become. *Worse, still, you tend to push
it on people who have absolutely no use for it. *Until they turn on the
floodlights from a bedside keyfob for the first time. *Then they're like Tim
Allen on Tooltime.

--
Bobby G.

Can I assume that you are the same Bobby G. who raved about the WGL
unit in Home Toys back in 2008?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Derby, sorry to see you're having so much trouble. I also missed your
earlier post, possibly because I was traveling. I agree that from
what you described you are doing everything right. And what you're
trying to do is exactly what the products were designed for. Some
suggestions I can think of:

1 - Try putting the RR501 in a different outlet or on an outlet on
another circuit.

2 - Try swapping the location of the 3way master and slave switch.

3 - As someone else suggested, try the X10 forum where there will be
more people with experience that may be able to give you some
suggestions.


Your question about the Edison circuit issue is interesting. It got
me thinking about how X10 works just with standard service. For
example, if I plug the transmitting device into a circuit on one hot
leg of the 240V service and the receiver on the other hot leg, how
does the signal get from one to the other? But, apparently it does.
It would seem one way it would make it there is via any 240V load that
was on or via an Edison circuit that was active. But failing that,
I'm now scratching my head trying to figure out how it works in
general.


With all the trouble you're having, I'm sorry for suggesting this as a
solution. It's working for me with a motion sensor, an RR501, two
single pole wall switches at locations far apart in a large house, a
couple plug-in wall modules, and one of the timer/controller
countertop widgets.

On Oct 28, 10:12*am, wrote:
On Oct 27, 10:15*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:





On Oct 27, 8:47*pm, "Robert Green" wrote:

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message

....
On Sep 18, 5:39 pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:

I installed someX10components today and have someissues.

First, it's interesting that the specs for the MS16A Wireless Motion
Sensor given on theX10site make no mention of the transmission
range. Wouldn't you think that that is a pretty important number to
know?

http://www.x10.com/products/x10_ms16a.htm

However, you can find them here and they state the transmission range
is 100'.

http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/MS16A

Using the test buttons on the sensor, I can trigger an RR501 receiver
consistently within 40', intermittently within 40' - 50' and not at
all above 50' - and that's with nothing obstructing the line of site
between the two units.

Put a garage wall between them, and I'm limited to a max of about 25',
less than 15' in some locations.

I've tried 2 different MS16A units and 2 different RR501's and got the
same results. Yes, they were brand new batteries. I even tested them
to eliminate the batteries as the problem.

Next issue: When using the dimmer feature of the WS4777 3-way switch
or WS467 single switch, the bulbs do not dim to nothing. You can still
see the light in a 65W outdoor spot even when the sun is up. I don't
know how often I'd want to dim them to nothing, but I'm just wondering
if that is normal.

Lastly (for now) I seemed to get inconsistant operation of the system
when the RR501 were plugged into GFCI outlets. They seemed to work
about 90% of the time, but every now and then the test buttons on the
sensors wouldn't do anything even if I was standing right in front of
the RR501. If I move the RR501 to a standard receptacle it starts
working again. I tried two different GFCI's and got the same result..
What's up with that?

If this is normal operation, then I'm going to be very limited as to
where I place my sensors since I appear to be restricted by both
distance and receptacle type.

My new toys aren't making me happy!

...Vent mode on...

My simple 1 sensor, 1 receiver, 2 light system is about to be ripped
out.

One light is on a 3 way switch, the other is on a single switch. The 2
switches are in the same box, but on different circuits. The receiver
is plugged into a receptacle on the circuit with the 3 way.

Intermittently, the single switched light does not come on when the
system is triggered by the sensor but the 2-way light always does.
Intermittently, whether one light or both are on, they (or it) stay
on, even after the time period set on the sensor has past. I'm pretty
sure it's not a "movement" issue because the lights have gone off in
windy conditions, but stay on (sometimes) under the calmest
conditions.

I know that some people have said that they love this X10 stuff and
operate a number of fixtures in various configurations with it, but if
it's so quirky that it can't work consistently with my simple set up,
I've got no need for it.

...Vent mode off...

I don't know how I missed this when you first posted it but I did, so here's
my late response.

I'm sorry that your X-10 experience was not good. *Twenty years ago, you
would have had few if any problems. *However X-10 has barely kept up with
the changes in the modern home's internal 110VAC wiring. *Ironically, I
would still advocate X-10 for large home installations. *It's absolutely
great "bang for the buck" stuff - there's nothing cheaper or more
versatile - but for even the simplest installations you usually need a
coupler/booster; *there's just no way around it. *I was just about to dump
$2K plus in X-10 gear before I stumbled on the WGL transceiver and the XTB
signal boosters. *A light that turns on intermittently is even worse than no
automation at all.

There are too many noisemakers in the modern home for a 5V X-10 signal to
make it through reliably. As you've discovered X-10 can be so twitchy that
it can turn light X on remotely but fail to turn it off. * That's very
disconcerting because it's so counterintuitive and it renders the technology
unusable, for the most part. *It's definitely NOT for anyone who doesn't
really like to (choose any):

a) tinker with gadgets
b) fuss with settings
c) play with electronic doodads
d) run around the house screaming WHY WON'T THE F*(KING LIGHT TURN OFF!!!?

X-10 is a challenge because there's so much more noise on the powerline
these days. *I've got gear (PC power supplies) that can even stop a 25V
signal (noisy switching power supplies). * While buying a booster pays off
for big installs, it clearly doesn't make sense for a one-off situation like
your dad's.

I'd recommend X-10 only in tandem with the XTB and WGL boosters for anyone
wanting to automate on the cheap. *You can get great stuff on Ebay that
lowers you "per load" cost to well under $10. *I know some people don't
blink at paying over $100 for a wall switch but I'm not one of them. Look at
the upside: *You've *gotten some hands-on experience with X-10 and learned
about its capabilities. * If you ever want to do a whole house in X-10 you
at least know the issues you'll be facing.

And you know exactly why I recommended a stand-alone unit for the light
control problem you had in the beginning. *While it's a simple task for an
all-in-one device, doing it with X-10 exposes you to a number of serious
problems in the "stock" protocol. *RF signals too weak to punch through
interference and that don't deliver the claimed range and powerline signals
that suffer from the same problems. *Too much noise on the powerline for a
stock 5V X-10 signal to penetrate. *Boost that to 25+V and suddenly X-10
behaves very nicely. *Once you get used to having X-10, staying in a house
that has no automation is like being away from the computer. *I knew in
short order what a technojunkie I've become. *Worse, still, you tend to push
it on people who have absolutely no use for it. *Until they turn on the
floodlights from a bedside keyfob for the first time. *Then they're like Tim
Allen on Tooltime.

--
Bobby G.

Can I assume that you are the same Bobby G. who raved about the WGL
unit in Home Toys back in 2008?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Derby, sorry to see you're having so much trouble. *I also missed your
earlier post, possibly because I was traveling. * I agree that from
what you described you are doing everything right. *And what you're
trying to do is exactly what the products were designed for. * Some
suggestions I can think of:

1 - Try putting the RR501 in a different outlet or on an outlet on
another circuit.

Based on the range I'm getting from the detector, that's going to be
problematic.

All of the outlets in the garage (where the detector is mounted) are
on the same circuit. Most are GFCI's which seem to make the operation
even more intermittent. The next closest outlet is in the living room
and we'd have to put up with the noise from the relay.

2 - Try swapping the location of the 3way master and slave switch.

That's doable, except that the 3 way light never gives me any trouble.
It's the entry light that's on the single switch that intermitantly
does not come on when the motion detector tells it too. The spots over
the garage door (the 3-way) *always* comes on, the single-switched
light over the entry door often doesn't. Both of the these lights are
on the same circuit, so why one always works and the other one
sometimes doesn't is beyond me. However, turning them off is another
story. Very often, they just don't ever turn off.

3 - As someone else suggested, try the X10 forum where there will be
more people with experience that may be able to give you some
suggestions.

It'll have to wait until after Halloween. I've got the receiver
unplugged since I'm using strobe lights and spots on my graveyard and
operating room display. The ghoulish surgeon holding the skeleton's
leg in the miter box is sure to scare the little one's this year. As a
matter of fact, the skeleton doesn't look all that happy about it
either.


Your question about the Edison circuit issue is interesting. * It got
me thinking about how X10 works just with standard service. * For
example, if I plug the transmitting device into a circuit on one hot
leg of the 240V service and the receiver on the other hot leg, how
does the signal get from one to the other? * But, apparently it does.
It would seem one way it would make it there is via any 240V load that
was on or via an Edison circuit that was active. * But failing that,
I'm now scratching my head trying to figure out how it works in
general.

With all the trouble you're having, I'm sorry for suggesting this as a
solution. * It's working for me with a motion sensor, an RR501, two
single pole wall switches at locations far apart in a large house, a
couple plug-in wall modules, and one of the timer/controller
countertop widgets.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
On Oct 27, 8:47 pm, "Robert Green" wrote:
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message

...
On Sep 18, 5:39 pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:



I installed someX10components today and have someissues.

First, it's interesting that the specs for the MS16A Wireless Motion
Sensor given on theX10site make no mention of the transmission
range. Wouldn't you think that that is a pretty important number to
know?

http://www.x10.com/products/x10_ms16a.htm

However, you can find them here and they state the transmission range
is 100'.

http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/MS16A

Using the test buttons on the sensor, I can trigger an RR501 receiver
consistently within 40', intermittently within 40' - 50' and not at
all above 50' - and that's with nothing obstructing the line of site
between the two units.

Put a garage wall between them, and I'm limited to a max of about 25',
less than 15' in some locations.

I've tried 2 different MS16A units and 2 different RR501's and got the
same results. Yes, they were brand new batteries. I even tested them
to eliminate the batteries as the problem.

Next issue: When using the dimmer feature of the WS4777 3-way switch
or WS467 single switch, the bulbs do not dim to nothing. You can still
see the light in a 65W outdoor spot even when the sun is up. I don't
know how often I'd want to dim them to nothing, but I'm just wondering
if that is normal.

Lastly (for now) I seemed to get inconsistant operation of the system
when the RR501 were plugged into GFCI outlets. They seemed to work
about 90% of the time, but every now and then the test buttons on the
sensors wouldn't do anything even if I was standing right in front of
the RR501. If I move the RR501 to a standard receptacle it starts
working again. I tried two different GFCI's and got the same result.
What's up with that?

If this is normal operation, then I'm going to be very limited as to
where I place my sensors since I appear to be restricted by both
distance and receptacle type.

My new toys aren't making me happy!

...Vent mode on...

My simple 1 sensor, 1 receiver, 2 light system is about to be ripped
out.

One light is on a 3 way switch, the other is on a single switch. The 2
switches are in the same box, but on different circuits. The receiver
is plugged into a receptacle on the circuit with the 3 way.

Intermittently, the single switched light does not come on when the
system is triggered by the sensor but the 2-way light always does.
Intermittently, whether one light or both are on, they (or it) stay
on, even after the time period set on the sensor has past. I'm pretty
sure it's not a "movement" issue because the lights have gone off in
windy conditions, but stay on (sometimes) under the calmest
conditions.

I know that some people have said that they love this X10 stuff and
operate a number of fixtures in various configurations with it, but if
it's so quirky that it can't work consistently with my simple set up,
I've got no need for it.

...Vent mode off...

I don't know how I missed this when you first posted it but I did, so
here's
my late response.

I'm sorry that your X-10 experience was not good. Twenty years ago, you
would have had few if any problems. However X-10 has barely kept up with
the changes in the modern home's internal 110VAC wiring. Ironically, I
would still advocate X-10 for large home installations. It's absolutely
great "bang for the buck" stuff - there's nothing cheaper or more
versatile - but for even the simplest installations you usually need a
coupler/booster; there's just no way around it. I was just about to dump
$2K plus in X-10 gear before I stumbled on the WGL transceiver and the XTB
signal boosters. A light that turns on intermittently is even worse than
no
automation at all.

There are too many noisemakers in the modern home for a 5V X-10 signal to
make it through reliably. As you've discovered X-10 can be so twitchy that
it can turn light X on remotely but fail to turn it off. That's very
disconcerting because it's so counterintuitive and it renders the
technology
unusable, for the most part. It's definitely NOT for anyone who doesn't
really like to (choose any):

a) tinker with gadgets
b) fuss with settings
c) play with electronic doodads
d) run around the house screaming WHY WON'T THE F*(KING LIGHT TURN OFF!!!?

X-10 is a challenge because there's so much more noise on the powerline
these days. I've got gear (PC power supplies) that can even stop a 25V
signal (noisy switching power supplies). While buying a booster pays off
for big installs, it clearly doesn't make sense for a one-off situation
like
your dad's.

I'd recommend X-10 only in tandem with the XTB and WGL boosters for anyone
wanting to automate on the cheap. You can get great stuff on Ebay that
lowers you "per load" cost to well under $10. I know some people don't
blink at paying over $100 for a wall switch but I'm not one of them. Look
at
the upside: You've gotten some hands-on experience with X-10 and learned
about its capabilities. If you ever want to do a whole house in X-10 you
at least know the issues you'll be facing.

And you know exactly why I recommended a stand-alone unit for the light
control problem you had in the beginning. While it's a simple task for an
all-in-one device, doing it with X-10 exposes you to a number of serious
problems in the "stock" protocol. RF signals too weak to punch through
interference and that don't deliver the claimed range and powerline
signals
that suffer from the same problems. Too much noise on the powerline for a
stock 5V X-10 signal to penetrate. Boost that to 25+V and suddenly X-10
behaves very nicely. Once you get used to having X-10, staying in a house
that has no automation is like being away from the computer. I knew in
short order what a technojunkie I've become. Worse, still, you tend to
push
it on people who have absolutely no use for it. Until they turn on the
floodlights from a bedside keyfob for the first time. Then they're like
Tim
Allen on Tooltime.

--
Bobby G.

Can I assume that you are the same Bobby G. who raved about the WGL
unit in Home Toys back in 2008?

Well, technically, a lot of the atoms in my body have been replaced by atoms
in incoming food and air, but maybe 70% of me is the same, and yes I raved
because after ten years of absolute frustration with X-10's RF performance,
all my RF problems just melted away with the WGL and XTB combination. It
really is like getting a car engine add-on that gets 5X the mileage of the
stock engine. I wouldn't do X-10 without it.

The problem with X-10 is that if the conditions in your house were exactly
right, X-10 would have worked just as Trader suggested. Many people have
limited and even moderately complex installs that are not troublesome. All
it takes, though, is plaster/lath, a circuit filled with too many switched
power supplies or on the wrong phase, or an incompatible GFCI outlet or a
balky UPS and you find yourself playing X-10 Sherlock Holmes without a
magnifying glass. Very, very frustrating.

I own three X-10 meter/analyzers and use them all when something screws up.
Still, I like having X-10 so much that I am willing to make a hobby out of
it. Most people don't want to take it that far. With the WGL/XTB
additions, they usually don't have to. My meters have remain mostly cased
up since I upgraded.

If you really want to try again I could lend you one of my spare XTB's - a
plug in kind that only amplifies one device - the one plugged into it. You
can get a boost in your stock RF range with careful antenna orientation.
Some people say that holding their remote under their chins boost the RF
range of the keychain transmitters. Both might be enough to put you back in
business. I'm guessing you're at least 300 miles away since I live next
door to an Ikea, so there won't being any local service calls, but back in
the day, I helped troubleshoot a number of local, struggling X-10 users
simply because I was one of two in the area with a meter/analyzer, which was
an essential tool for a professional install back in the day before WGL/XTB
and cost $300. Now *that's* commitment to a home automation protocol.

--
Bobby G.

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
news:bbe786fd-398f-4f7c-b4b9-

stuff snipped

I don't know why older thread posts don't show up in my newsreader, but I
just caught your reply, which I also missed the first time around.
Technology. )-:

I'm sorry that your X-10 experience was not good. Twenty years ago, you
would have had few if any problems. However X-10 has barely kept up with
the changes in the modern home's internal 110VAC wiring. Ironically, I
would still advocate X-10 for large home installations. It's absolutely
great "bang for the buck" stuff - there's nothing cheaper or more
versatile - but for even the simplest installations you usually need a
coupler/booster; there's just no way around it. I was just about to dump
$2K plus in X-10 gear before I stumbled on the WGL transceiver and the
XTB
signal boosters. A light that turns on intermittently is even worse than
no
automation at all.

There are too many noisemakers in the modern home for a 5V X-10 signal
to
make it through reliably. As you've discovered X-10 can be so twitchy
that
it can turn light X on remotely but fail to turn it off. That's very
disconcerting because it's so counterintuitive and it renders the
technology
unusable, for the most part. It's definitely NOT for anyone who doesn't
really like to (choose any):

a) tinker with gadgets
b) fuss with settings
c) play with electronic doodads
d) run around the house screaming WHY WON'T THE F*(KING LIGHT TURN
OFF!!!?

X-10 is a challenge because there's so much more noise on the powerline
these days. I've got gear (PC power supplies) that can even stop a 25V
signal (noisy switching power supplies). While buying a booster pays off
for big installs, it clearly doesn't make sense for a one-off situation
like
your dad's.

I'd recommend X-10 only in tandem with the XTB and WGL boosters for
anyone
wanting to automate on the cheap. You can get great stuff on Ebay that
lowers you "per load" cost to well under $10. I know some people don't
blink at paying over $100 for a wall switch but I'm not one of them.
Look
at
the upside: You've gotten some hands-on experience with X-10 and learned
about its capabilities. If you ever want to do a whole house in X-10 you
at least know the issues you'll be facing.

And you know exactly why I recommended a stand-alone unit for the light
control problem you had in the beginning. While it's a simple task for
an
all-in-one device, doing it with X-10 exposes you to a number of serious
problems in the "stock" protocol. RF signals too weak to punch through
interference and that don't deliver the claimed range and powerline
signals
that suffer from the same problems. Too much noise on the powerline for
a
stock 5V X-10 signal to penetrate. Boost that to 25+V and suddenly X-10
behaves very nicely. Once you get used to having X-10, staying in a
house
that has no automation is like being away from the computer. I knew in
short order what a technojunkie I've become. Worse, still, you tend to
push
it on people who have absolutely no use for it. Until they turn on the
floodlights from a bedside keyfob for the first time. Then they're like
Tim
Allen on Tooltime.

--
Bobby G.

Can I assume that you are the same Bobby G. who raved about the WGL
unit in Home Toys back in 2008?

Well, technically, a lot of the atoms in my body have been replaced by
atoms
in incoming food and air, but maybe 70% of me is the same, and yes I raved
because after ten years of absolute frustration with X-10's RF
performance,
all my RF problems just melted away with the WGL and XTB combination. It
really is like getting a car engine add-on that gets 5X the mileage of the
stock engine. I wouldn't do X-10 without it.

The problem with X-10 is that if the conditions in your house were exactly
right, X-10 would have worked just as Trader suggested. Many people have
limited and even moderately complex installs that are not troublesome. All
it takes, though, is plaster/lath, a circuit filled with too many switched
power supplies or on the wrong phase, or an incompatible GFCI outlet or a
balky UPS and you find yourself playing X-10 Sherlock Holmes without a
magnifying glass. Very, very frustrating.

I own three X-10 meter/analyzers and use them all when something screws
up.
Still, I like having X-10 so much that I am willing to make a hobby out of
it. Most people don't want to take it that far. With the WGL/XTB
additions, they usually don't have to. My meters have remain mostly cased
up since I upgraded.

If you really want to try again I could lend you one of my spare XTB's - a
plug in kind that only amplifies one device - the one plugged into it. You
can get a boost in your stock RF range with careful antenna orientation.
Some people say that holding their remote under their chins boost the RF
range of the keychain transmitters. Both might be enough to put you back
in
business. I'm guessing you're at least 300 miles away since I live next
door to an Ikea, so there won't being any local service calls, but back in
the day, I helped troubleshoot a number of local, struggling X-10 users
simply because I was one of two in the area with a meter/analyzer, which
was
an essential tool for a professional install back in the day before
WGL/XTB
and cost $300. Now *that's* commitment to a home automation protocol.

--
Bobby G.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Would the XTB solve the issue of one light not coming on when the
other one does?

As a reminder...

- There is a motion sensor outside the garage.
- There is a 3-way switched light fixture outside the garage.
- There is a single-switched light fixture near the front door.
- The 2 fixtures are on the same circuit which includes much of the
first floor of the dwelling.
- The Master switch for the 3-way fixture and the single switch for
the front door are in the same box inside the front door.
- The Slave switch for the 3-way is in the garage.
- The RR501 is in the garage on the garage circuit. (Moving the RR501
to the same circuit as the fixtures would mean hearing the Clack
everytime it activated,

[Break, break] If the clack bothers you and you don't have anything plugged
into the RR501's outlet (you're using it just to take the RF and convert it
into a powerline signal), it is a simple matter to disconnect the relay and
make it stop clacking.

assuming I even have a receptacle within range
of the sensor. Hmm, I guess I could tap into the part of the 1st floor
circuit that extends into the garage and add a receptacle, although
currently the only wire that goes into the garage in the 14/3 for the
switch.

The problem:

Very often (but of course not always) the 3-way fixture comes on when
motion is detected, but the front door fixture does not.

I have never noticed the front door fixture come on but not the 3-way.
It's either the 3-way alone, or both.

The fact that one device activates (which means the RF has reached the RR501
and has put a signal on the housewiring leads me to believe that it's a
powerline signal strength problem. The RR501 has enough "oomph" to reach
one light switch, but not the other, which I am assuming is "downstream"
from the light that works. I believe the XTBR would be very helpful in such
a situation since it's clear that the RF end is working.

If that wasn't true, no light would come on, ever. Can you tell me if
you've got PC's, UPS's, lots of small switching powersupplies (wall warts
that don't have big iron core transformers) or lots of CFLs on any of the
circuits that your X-10 signal must traverse? Any one of those can put out
more than enough interference via noise or signal absorption to kill the
X-10 signal. Also, different modules have different operation thresholds.
A 30mv signal *might* activate one module but not another that's sitting
right next to it. The XTBR will both boost and repeat the X-10 commands
(X-10 is sent as a double-frame message, allowing a repeater to "hear" the
first frame and "lay it over" the second, duplicate frame at much higher
voltage). The ideal place to locate the XTBR is as near the

Aside from signal sucking, there could be a wiring issue. X-10 devices
require current to power their internal electronics and they get it through
a variety of means. If there's no neutral available, it gets it through a
small trickle current it passes through the load being controlled. This
method does NOT work reliably, if at all, with CFL bulbs. I can't recall,
but are these CFL's you're trying to control. If so, the first thing you
need to do is try the setup with incandescent tungsten bulbs, just to
eliminate the trickle current block possibility. It could also be that
you've chosen a wiring scheme for the 3-way switch that isn't passing the
X-10 signal properly.

I recall in the days when comp.home.automation was getting scores of posts a
day, that many people had issues with 3 and 4 way switches because they
operate so differently than normally wired 3 and 4 way switches. Instead of
switching hots, you essential use the traveller as a radio antenna, and
turning on the slave switch is really just sending a signal to the main
(larger) X-10 module to turn on and off. If the XTBR doesn't solve the
problem, we'll probably have to resort to ASCII wiring diagrams. But I
don't think it's wired incorrectly because it's intermittent, and if it's
the wiring, it should be a constant problem.

If you want to try it, contact me offline. Change the zero's to the letters
OO in my email addy. Yah00 to Yahoo.

I'm going to CC this to Jeff Volp, the creator of the XTB to get his read on
the problem and to see if he concurs with my opinion about the XTBR's
ability to solve it. I might even be able to help you ID any noisemakers or
signal suckers without the XTBR. Sometimes, by turning off all *but* the
X-10 related circuits at the breaker, you can get the X-10 gear to work
perfectly. You can then narrow down the location of troublesome equipment
by turning the breakers back on, one by one to see when the X-10 gear stops
working again. It's much easier to do with a meter, but that's gonna set
you back some more and isn't really necessary to "grunt and crank" through
the breaker shut-off method. I'm assuming that you're interested in the
technology based on the time you've spent already trying to get it to work.
(-:

FWIW, even though X-10 is completely capable of intermittently charging my
various battery devices, I plunked down $25 for two weekly, stand-alone
timers that can turn on power strips to which charging wall-warts are
plugged in for a few hours every week so that they are always getting a
small "top off" but not an overcharge. Like my driveway light, some things
are just better done with small, very self-contained, limited and thus
highly reliable units.

One serious issue with X-10 is that it takes a long time (compared to
Insteon or UPB) to transmit a single command - about one second. That's
unfortunately long enough to allow one command to walk over another. It's
why I use very few X-10 motion detectors. They fire very frequently and
they often "step on" a command that's issued from another device at the same
time. When you're walking around in a room with an X-10 motion sensor you
transmit a new ON signal each time it detects your motion. While turning on
an already ON lamp is no big thing, those frequent ON commands can easily
interfere with a command issued by another controller somewhere else in the
house. This is especially true of macros: chained commands that can often
take several seconds to execute. Some X-10 devices will retransmit in case
of collision but others won't.

I suspect as a "Derby Dad" you are very familiar with the processes of
stepwise refinement and iterative improvement. X-10 is very much like that.
It takes a while to get the hang of it, there are often great frustrations,
but when it's up and running smoothly it's like fax machines, cell phones,
PC's and the internet. You wonder how you ever got along without it.

--
Bobby G.