I have been trying for a while now to figure out a wall-mounted outdoor
light that looks the way I want it to look, and that does what I want it to
do. And, since I cannot seem to find the light that has all the features
that I want (and don't want), I have an idea of how I may be able to
configure something that will work.

Here what I want and don't want:

I want a wall-mounted outdoor light looks okay as a front porch light and
that is not a flood light type of light. It will be the outdoor front porch
light above the door on a two-unit apartment building that I rent out. I
want the tenants to be able to turn the light on or off as they choose, but
if it is turned on or left turned on, I want it to be a dusk-to-dawn light
that will go on at dusk and off at dawn. But, if it is turned off, or left
turned off, I want it to work as a motion sensor light that will
automatically come on if someone approaches the front door when it is dark
out.

I know there are wall-mounted outdoor lights that are supposed have these
features, but all of them that I have found so far that combine the
dusk-to-dawn feature with a motion sensing feature are "programmed"
lights -- which means for the occupants to turn these features on and off,
they have to do some gyrations like flip the switch off for 1 second and
then back on, etc. It's too complicated and no one can figure out what the
settings on the light really are. That might work in a house that I own and
live in myself because I can eventually learn how to use it and make sure I
set it the way I want it. But, with a house occupied by others, that won't
work.

Here's my idea about how I may be able to get what I want and I am wondering
if this will work:

1) I buy a light that looks the way that I want it to look and that is just
a dusk-to-dawn light without the motion sensing feature. I've seen an
inexpensive one at Lowes and/or Home Depot that is wall-mounted, that is
strictly dusk-to-dawn with no motion sensing features, and which uses a
plug-in type fluorescent bulb that will last a long time, uses much less
electricity, and the bulb is not compatible with indoor lights so tenants
won't have a tendency to steal the outside bulb to put in one of their
indoor lights when their inside light bulb goes out. With this light, when
the switch is on, the light is on, and when the switch is off, the light is
off -- except that with the switch on, the light will only operate from
dusk to dawn, so the light will not be on all day long and look stupid.

2) I buy a motion sensor and wire it so that it is connected across the
same switch that controls the dusk-to-dawn light. So, when the light switch
is on, the light will be on (from dusk to dawn) and the motion sensor will
have no impact on the circuit because the switch circuit is already closed.
But, when the switch is off, and the switch circuit is open, if someone
walks by the motion sensor it will close the circuit and the light will come
on (as long as it is dark outside due to the dusk-to-dawn feature of the
light itself).

Will this work? I don't really know how a motion sensor device is wired and
whether it can be wired to be in parallel with the light switch so that
EITHER the light switch OR the motion sensor will close the circuit to make
the light come on. But, it seems like it would work as far as I can tell.

Beta-32 wrote:
I have been trying for a while now to figure out a wall-mounted outdoor
light that looks the way I want it to look, and that does what I want it
to do. And, since I cannot seem to find the light that has all the
features that I want (and don't want), I have an idea of how I may be
able to configure something that will work.

Here what I want and don't want:

I want a wall-mounted outdoor light looks okay as a front porch light
and that is not a flood light type of light. It will be the outdoor
front porch light above the door on a two-unit apartment building that I
rent out. I want the tenants to be able to turn the light on or off as
they choose, but if it is turned on or left turned on, I want it to be a
dusk-to-dawn light that will go on at dusk and off at dawn. But, if it
is turned off, or left turned off, I want it to work as a motion sensor
light that will automatically come on if someone approaches the front
door when it is dark out.

I know there are wall-mounted outdoor lights that are supposed have
these features, but all of them that I have found so far that combine
the dusk-to-dawn feature with a motion sensing feature are "programmed"
lights -- which means for the occupants to turn these features on and
off, they have to do some gyrations like flip the switch off for 1
second and then back on, etc. It's too complicated and no one can
figure out what the settings on the light really are. That might work
in a house that I own and live in myself because I can eventually learn
how to use it and make sure I set it the way I want it. But, with a
house occupied by others, that won't work.

Here's my idea about how I may be able to get what I want and I am
wondering if this will work:

1) I buy a light that looks the way that I want it to look and that is
just a dusk-to-dawn light without the motion sensing feature. I've seen
an inexpensive one at Lowes and/or Home Depot that is wall-mounted, that
is strictly dusk-to-dawn with no motion sensing features, and which uses
a plug-in type fluorescent bulb that will last a long time, uses much
less electricity, and the bulb is not compatible with indoor lights so
tenants won't have a tendency to steal the outside bulb to put in one of
their indoor lights when their inside light bulb goes out. With this
light, when the switch is on, the light is on, and when the switch is
off, the light is off -- except that with the switch on, the light will
only operate from dusk to dawn, so the light will not be on all day long
and look stupid.

2) I buy a motion sensor and wire it so that it is connected across the
same switch that controls the dusk-to-dawn light. So, when the light
switch is on, the light will be on (from dusk to dawn) and the motion
sensor will have no impact on the circuit because the switch circuit is
already closed. But, when the switch is off, and the switch circuit is
open, if someone walks by the motion sensor it will close the circuit
and the light will come on (as long as it is dark outside due to the
dusk-to-dawn feature of the light itself).

Will this work? I don't really know how a motion sensor device is wired
and whether it can be wired to be in parallel with the light switch so
that EITHER the light switch OR the motion sensor will close the circuit
to make the light come on. But, it seems like it would work as far as I
can tell.

I suspect that you are correct, but really the only way to try it is to
get a motion sensor and a photocell and have at it. You'll have to pull
a 3 conductor cable out to the light so you will also have an always hot
feed for the motion sensor; at least unless the existing fixture is not
wired with a switch leg.

Actually I would be interested to hear how you make out with this
experiment because I've thought of doing something similar myself - say
someone is supposed to come over so you flip the porch light on - it's
already light when you leave for work the next morning so you don't
notice it's on - light stays on for days. Likewise if you don't plan to
be out after dark so you don't turn on the lightbut are delayed a motion
sensor would be nice so you can find the keyhole without fumbling.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 12/13/2008 5:44 PM Beta-32 spake thus:

I have been trying for a while now to figure out a wall-mounted outdoor
light that looks the way I want it to look, and that does what I want it to
do. And, since I cannot seem to find the light that has all the features
that I want (and don't want), I have an idea of how I may be able to
configure something that will work.

Here what I want and don't want:

I want a wall-mounted outdoor light looks okay as a front porch light and
that is not a flood light type of light. It will be the outdoor front porch
light above the door on a two-unit apartment building that I rent out. I
want the tenants to be able to turn the light on or off as they choose, but
if it is turned on or left turned on, I want it to be a dusk-to-dawn light
that will go on at dusk and off at dawn. But, if it is turned off, or left
turned off, I want it to work as a motion sensor light that will
automatically come on if someone approaches the front door when it is dark
out.

[snip]

I know what you're trying to do. I think you can do it, but not quite
the way you had described. Here's what I'd do.

(I have wired outdoor lights using separate remote motion sensors, which
are easily available and cheap at places such as Home Despot, so I have
some experience with this setup.)

What a guy would want to do is to use a so-called "3-way" switch to
switch between the dawn-to-dusk and motion-sensor functions for the light.

Since the motion detector requires power, you wire it so that it always
receives power to its black wire. You take the switched leg of the
motion sensor (red, I believe) and wire it to one contact on the 3-way
switch. The other contact of the 3-way switch just goes to power. The
common terminal of the 3-way switch goes to the light. (And, of course,
all neutrals [white] are wired together.)

This way, when the switch is in one position, it receives power from the
motion sensor *when motion has been sensed*. In the other position, it
always receives power, so it does its usual thing (come on at dusk, go
off at dawn).

Would require experimentation, of course, to see, for instance, whether
the motion-detected switching interferes with the dawn-to-dusk logic.
But in theory, it should work.


--
Washing one's hands of the conflict between the powerful and the
powerless means to side with the powerful, not to be neutral.

- Paulo Freire

On Dec 13, 7:44*pm, "Beta-32" wrote:
I have been trying for a while now to figure out a wall-mounted outdoor
light that looks the way I want it to look, and that does what I want it to
do. *And, since I cannot seem to find the light that has all the features
that I want (and don't want), I have an idea of how I may be able to
configure something that will work.

Here what I want and don't want:

I want a wall-mounted outdoor light looks okay as a front porch light and
that is not a flood light type of light. *It will be the outdoor front porch
light above the door on a two-unit apartment building that I rent out. *I
want the tenants to be able to turn the light on or off as they choose, but
if it is turned on or left turned on, I want it to be a dusk-to-dawn light
that will go on at dusk and off at dawn. *But, if it is turned off, or left
turned off, I want it to work as a motion sensor light that will
automatically come on if someone approaches the front door when it is dark
out.

I know there are wall-mounted outdoor lights that are supposed have these
features, but all of them that I have found so far that combine the
dusk-to-dawn feature with a motion sensing feature are "programmed"
lights -- which means for the occupants to turn these features on and off,
they have to do some gyrations like flip the switch off for 1 second and
then back on, etc. *It's too complicated and no one can figure out what the
settings on the light really are. *That might work in a house that I own and
live in myself because I can eventually learn how to use it and make sure I
set it the way I want it. *But, with a house occupied by others, that won't
work.

Here's my idea about how I may be able to get what I want and I am wondering
if this will work:

1) *I buy a light that looks the way that I want it to look and that is just
a dusk-to-dawn light without the motion sensing feature. *I've seen an
inexpensive one at Lowes and/or Home Depot that is wall-mounted, that is
strictly dusk-to-dawn with no motion sensing features, and which uses a
plug-in type fluorescent bulb that will last a long time, uses much less
electricity, and the bulb is not compatible with indoor lights so tenants
won't have a tendency to steal the outside bulb to put in one of their
indoor lights when their inside light bulb goes out. *With this light, when
the switch is on, the light is on, and when the switch is off, the light is
off -- *except that with the switch on, the light will only operate from
dusk to dawn, so the light will not be on all day long and look stupid.

2) *I buy a motion sensor and wire it so that it is connected across the
same switch that controls the dusk-to-dawn light. *So, when the light switch
is on, the light will be on (from dusk to dawn) and the motion sensor will
have no impact on the circuit because the switch circuit is already closed.
But, when the switch is off, and the switch circuit is open, if someone
walks by the motion sensor it will close the circuit and the light will come
on (as long as it is dark outside due to the dusk-to-dawn feature of the
light itself).

Will this work? *I don't really know how a motion sensor device is wired and
whether it can be wired to be in parallel with the light switch so that
EITHER the light switch OR the motion sensor will close the circuit to make
the light come on. *But, it seems like it would work as far as I can tell.

For the cost of operating a flourescent 15 watt?, the increase in
liability, accident, theft, etc, or possibly code violation since its
a rental and one more thing you forgot flourescent take a long time to
warm when cold and cycling is the hardest on them, its not worth the
trouble. Also some sensors dont handle flourescents well, but try it
if you wish. A nine watt cfl in a sealed light wont get stolen, and
costs me 70 cents a month to operate 12 hrs a day and lasts years,
cycle it on a motion sensor it might last one year, also a tenant wont
turn it off, why should he unles you havnt figured, you must pay him.

On Dec 14, 4:41*am, ransley wrote:
On Dec 13, 7:44*pm, "Beta-32" wrote:





I have been trying for a while now to figure out a wall-mounted outdoor
light that looks the way I want it to look, and that does what I want it to
do. *And, since I cannot seem to find the light that has all the features
that I want (and don't want), I have an idea of how I may be able to
configure something that will work.

Here what I want and don't want:

I want a wall-mounted outdoor light looks okay as a front porch light and
that is not a flood light type of light. *It will be the outdoor front porch
light above the door on a two-unit apartment building that I rent out. *I
want the tenants to be able to turn the light on or off as they choose, but
if it is turned on or left turned on, I want it to be a dusk-to-dawn light
that will go on at dusk and off at dawn. *But, if it is turned off, or left
turned off, I want it to work as a motion sensor light that will
automatically come on if someone approaches the front door when it is dark
out.

I know there are wall-mounted outdoor lights that are supposed have these
features, but all of them that I have found so far that combine the
dusk-to-dawn feature with a motion sensing feature are "programmed"
lights -- which means for the occupants to turn these features on and off,
they have to do some gyrations like flip the switch off for 1 second and
then back on, etc. *It's too complicated and no one can figure out what the
settings on the light really are. *That might work in a house that I own and
live in myself because I can eventually learn how to use it and make sure I
set it the way I want it. *But, with a house occupied by others, that won't
work.

Here's my idea about how I may be able to get what I want and I am wondering
if this will work:

1) *I buy a light that looks the way that I want it to look and that is just
a dusk-to-dawn light without the motion sensing feature. *I've seen an
inexpensive one at Lowes and/or Home Depot that is wall-mounted, that is
strictly dusk-to-dawn with no motion sensing features, and which uses a
plug-in type fluorescent bulb that will last a long time, uses much less
electricity, and the bulb is not compatible with indoor lights so tenants
won't have a tendency to steal the outside bulb to put in one of their
indoor lights when their inside light bulb goes out. *With this light, when
the switch is on, the light is on, and when the switch is off, the light is
off -- *except that with the switch on, the light will only operate from
dusk to dawn, so the light will not be on all day long and look stupid.

2) *I buy a motion sensor and wire it so that it is connected across the
same switch that controls the dusk-to-dawn light. *So, when the light switch
is on, the light will be on (from dusk to dawn) and the motion sensor will
have no impact on the circuit because the switch circuit is already closed.
But, when the switch is off, and the switch circuit is open, if someone
walks by the motion sensor it will close the circuit and the light will come
on (as long as it is dark outside due to the dusk-to-dawn feature of the
light itself).

Will this work? *I don't really know how a motion sensor device is wired and
whether it can be wired to be in parallel with the light switch so that
EITHER the light switch OR the motion sensor will close the circuit to make
the light come on. *But, it seems like it would work as far as I can tell.

For the cost of operating a flourescent 15 watt?, the increase in
liability, accident, theft, etc, or possibly code violation since its
a rental and one more thing you forgot flourescent take a long time to
warm when cold and cycling is the hardest on them, its not worth the
trouble. Also some sensors dont handle flourescents well, but try it
if you wish. A nine watt cfl in a sealed light wont get stolen, and
costs me 70 cents a month to operate 12 hrs a day and lasts years,
cycle it on a motion sensor it might last one year, also a tenant wont
turn it off, why should he unles you havnt figured, you must pay him.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


First, I would do some more looking, because I would think you could
find what you want, which is a fixture where the features are set with
a couple of switches, not via flip switch programming. Try going to
a good store that sells lighting fixtures or an electrical supply
house.

Second, I have halogen security lights that I bought at HD. They do
exactly what you want, plus more and the features are set via dip
switches. Now, they are not the style you want for a front door
light, but I have seen the motion sensor/electric eye/smarts widget
sold at HD as a seperate item. It's a small widget with std
electrical conduit thread and wires coming out, so it would be easy to
mount and use. With that you don't have to parallel anything, just
use it as is.

Thanks. As soon as anyone says "3-way switch" to me, my eyes glaze over. I
can never figure out anythig that has to do with 3-way switches, a red wire
in a circuit, etc. So, what you wrote is probably correct, but I am not
sure if I am brave enough to give it a try. I wasn't even thinking about
the fact that the motion sensor needs to always be powered in order to work
(duh), so I don't know what that will mean in terms of my idea.

David Nebenzahl wrote:

I know what you're trying to do. I think you can do it, but not quite
the way you had described. Here's what I'd do.

(I have wired outdoor lights using separate remote motion sensors,
which are easily available and cheap at places such as Home Despot,
so I have some experience with this setup.)

What a guy would want to do is to use a so-called "3-way" switch to
switch between the dawn-to-dusk and motion-sensor functions for the
light.
Since the motion detector requires power, you wire it so that it
always receives power to its black wire. You take the switched leg of
the motion sensor (red, I believe) and wire it to one contact on the 3-way
switch. The other contact of the 3-way switch just goes to power. The
common terminal of the 3-way switch goes to the light. (And, of
course, all neutrals [white] are wired together.)

This way, when the switch is in one position, it receives power from
the motion sensor *when motion has been sensed*. In the other
position, it always receives power, so it does its usual thing (come
on at dusk, go off at dawn).

Would require experimentation, of course, to see, for instance,
whether the motion-detected switching interferes with the
dawn-to-dusk logic. But in theory, it should work.

ransley wrote:

For the cost of operating a flourescent 15 watt?, ....
..... A nine watt cfl in a sealed light wont get stolen, ....

Oops, my mistake. I meant a CFL in a sealed light (I think the one I saw is
9 watts or 13 watts or something like that), not a flourescent light.

I have definitely been doing a lot of looking -- actually for several months
now. That's partly how I found out that the all-in-one-features porch
lights suck. I have tried two different models at two different locations
and they take a degree in rocket science to operate (switch this on then off
for one second, then do this, then it resets to that, etc. etc).

About the HD halogen security light -- I know the one you mean. And, as far
as I can tell, it does exactly what I want. I am probably going to be
getting that one for two different parking areas that require that type of
security lighting. But, that's what bugs me about this whole process. I
don't want a 50-100 watt Halogen security light for a wall-mounted front
porch light, and I wish the features of that 50-100 watt Halogen security
light were available in a porch light -- ideally one with a built-in CFL
bulb, but one with a regular screw-in bulb socket would be okay.


wrote:

First, I would do some more looking, because I would think you could
find what you want, which is a fixture where the features are set with
a couple of switches, not via flip switch programming. Try going to
a good store that sells lighting fixtures or an electrical supply
house.

Second, I have halogen security lights that I bought at HD. They do
exactly what you want, plus more and the features are set via dip
switches. Now, they are not the style you want for a front door
light, but I have seen the motion sensor/electric eye/smarts widget
sold at HD as a seperate item. It's a small widget with std
electrical conduit thread and wires coming out, so it would be easy to
mount and use. With that you don't have to parallel anything, just
use it as is.

On 12/14/2008 8:57 AM Beta-32 spake thus:

Thanks. As soon as anyone says "3-way switch" to me, my eyes glaze
over. I can never figure out anythig that has to do with 3-way
switches, a red wire in a circuit, etc. So, what you wrote is
probably correct, but I am not sure if I am brave enough to give it a
try. I wasn't even thinking about the fact that the motion sensor
needs to always be powered in order to work (duh), so I don't know
what that will mean in terms of my idea.

Ah, the dreaded MEGO syndrome. I know what you're talking about.

I went ahead and drew a schematic diagram of the circuit for you:

http://www.geocities.com/bonezphoto/...ctor-light.gif

Following typical conventions, crossing wires with a dot are
electrically connected, those without a dot aren't. Boxes represent
junction boxes and everything that goes inside them. The cable between
motion detector and switch needs 3 conductors (white/black/red) plus
ground; all others are regular 2-conductor (black/white). Diagram
assumes power comes into the box with the motion detector; if it comes
in elsewhere, circuit needs to be changed to suit.

You should be able to figure this out, I hope.


--
Washing one's hands of the conflict between the powerful and the
powerless means to side with the powerful, not to be neutral.

- Paulo Freire

Wow, thanks again. That's a lot of work that you did. I appreciate it. I
think I can follow the diagram, so I'll probably end up giving that a try
and seeing what happens. I may not get to it for about a week or so, but
I'll post back what happens.

David Nebenzahl wrote:

Ah, the dreaded MEGO syndrome. I know what you're talking about.

I went ahead and drew a schematic diagram of the circuit for you:

http://www.geocities.com/bonezphoto/...ctor-light.gif

Following typical conventions, crossing wires with a dot are
electrically connected, those without a dot aren't. Boxes represent
junction boxes and everything that goes inside them. The cable between
motion detector and switch needs 3 conductors (white/black/red) plus
ground; all others are regular 2-conductor (black/white). Diagram
assumes power comes into the box with the motion detector; if it comes
in elsewhere, circuit needs to be changed to suit.

You should be able to figure this out, I hope.

Wow. That's a lot to go through for some tenants who will probably
stiff you for the last months rent. I give mine a 40-watt bulb in a
cheap fixture. They want light, they turn it on. They leave it on,
they pay the bill. I usually have to get a new fixture every couple
years ($5).

SGT

I am in favor of, "They want light, they trun it on". But, I also want the
light to come on whenever anyone approaches the front door -- for security
and safety reasons. I don't want someone to slip, trip, or fall simply
because it was too dark near the front door due to the light not being left
on by the tenant.

SteveT wrote:
Wow. That's a lot to go through for some tenants who will probably
stiff you for the last months rent. I give mine a 40-watt bulb in a
cheap fixture. They want light, they turn it on. They leave it on,
they pay the bill. I usually have to get a new fixture every couple
years ($5).

SGT