I'm looking for suggestions on a 24volt relay with contacts that can
handle 120V, 7 amps. I'm looking to install it to control a new 120V
outlet that is going in an attic and needs to be controlled by a 24V
signal to turn it on. So, I'm looking for one that is cost effective
and can be mounted in some simple type of wiring box. If it can go in
the same box as the outlet, even better. I'd like to make this code
compliant and do it right. Plenty of space is available as I can
mount just about anything on a stud in the unfinished attic.

Thanks for any input.

On May 11, 2:49*pm, horizon wrote:
I'm looking for suggestions on a 24volt relay with contacts that can
handle 120V, 7 amps. *I'm looking to install it to control a new 120V
outlet that is going in an attic and needs to be controlled by a 24V
signal to turn it on. * So, I'm looking for one that is cost effective
and can be mounted in some simple type of wiring box. *If it can go in
the same box as the outlet, even better. * *I'd like to make this code
compliant and do it right. *Plenty of space is available as I can
mount just about anything on a stud in the unfinished attic.

Thanks for any input.

After posting, I realized that while I said I only need 7 amps, since
it's an outlet on a 15 amp circuit I guess I actually need one capable
of min of 15 amps.

horizon wrote:
I'm looking for suggestions on a 24volt relay with contacts that can
handle 120V, 7 amps. I'm looking to install it to control a new 120V
outlet that is going in an attic and needs to be controlled by a 24V
signal to turn it on. So, I'm looking for one that is cost effective
and can be mounted in some simple type of wiring box. If it can go in
the same box as the outlet, even better. I'd like to make this code
compliant and do it right. Plenty of space is available as I can
mount just about anything on a stud in the unfinished attic.

Thanks for any input.

I would use a RIB "relay in a box". Most electrical, HVAC and
electronics supply houses have them in stock.

http://hvac.functionaldevices.com/chartPilot.html

TDD

I'm looking for suggestions on a 24volt relay with contacts that can
handle 120V, 7 amps. I'm looking to install it to control a new 120V
outlet that is going in an attic and needs to be controlled by a 24V
signal to turn it on. So, I'm looking for one that is cost effective
and can be mounted in some simple type of wiring box. If it can go in
the same box as the outlet, even better. I'd like to make this code
compliant and do it right. Plenty of space is available as I can
mount just about anything on a stud in the unfinished attic.


http://www.tequipment.net/Remcon.html

On May 11, 2:49*pm, horizon wrote:
I'm looking for suggestions on a 24volt relay with contacts that can
handle 120V, 7 amps. *I'm looking to install it to control a new 120V
outlet that is going in an attic and needs to be controlled by a 24V
signal to turn it on. * So, I'm looking for one that is cost effective
and can be mounted in some simple type of wiring box. *If it can go in
the same box as the outlet, even better. * *I'd like to make this code
compliant and do it right. *Plenty of space is available as I can
mount just about anything on a stud in the unfinished attic.

Thanks for any input.


What are you attempting to automatically control with the relay ?

What is the source of the input control signal ?

The most difficult issue for you is going to be finding an enclosure
which isolates the line voltage side of the relay from the low
voltage...

Depending on what you are using for your control input you might
want to find a relay that is made by the same company as the
rest of the equipment in place... It would also be a good idea
to obtain information from the OEM asking them if using the
equipment with an external relay is safe and won't interfere with
the normal operation just so that whatever accessory you are
going to be controlling via the relay won't void a warranty or
something like that if external relay terminals aren't provided...

~~ Evan

"horizon" wrote in message
...
I'm looking for suggestions on a 24volt relay with contacts that can
handle 120V, 7 amps. I'm looking to install it to control a new 120V
outlet that is going in an attic and needs to be controlled by a 24V
signal to turn it on. So, I'm looking for one that is cost effective
and can be mounted in some simple type of wiring box. If it can go in
the same box as the outlet, even better. I'd like to make this code
compliant and do it right. Plenty of space is available as I can
mount just about anything on a stud in the unfinished attic.

Thanks for any input.

I was going to suggest a typical boiler relay like Taco SR501, but then I
saw both John Grabowski's, and gfretwell's replies, which make even more
sense. I don't know the one John suggested, but if you can live with the
amperage rating, it's a nice self contained unit. The rr7 that gfretwell
suggested, does need a 24 volt power supply, but it has a high amperage
rating, and those relays will last forever.

"horizon" wrote in message
...
I'm looking for suggestions on a 24volt relay with contacts that can
handle 120V, 7 amps. I'm looking to install it to control a new 120V
outlet that is going in an attic and needs to be controlled by a 24V
signal to turn it on. So, I'm looking for one that is cost effective
and can be mounted in some simple type of wiring box. If it can go in
the same box as the outlet, even better. I'd like to make this code
compliant and do it right. Plenty of space is available as I can
mount just about anything on a stud in the unfinished attic.

Thanks for any input.

DigiKey.com They will have what you need. ww

I'm looking for suggestions on a 24volt relay with contacts that can
handle 120V, 7 amps. I'm looking to install it to control a new 120V
outlet that is going in an attic and needs to be controlled by a 24V
signal to turn it on. So, I'm looking for one that is cost effective
and can be mounted in some simple type of wiring box. If it can go in
the same box as the outlet, even better. I'd like to make this code
compliant and do it right. Plenty of space is available as I can
mount just about anything on a stud in the unfinished attic.

Thanks for any input.

I was going to suggest a typical boiler relay like Taco SR501, but then I
saw both John Grabowski's, and gfretwell's replies, which make even more
sense. I don't know the one John suggested, but if you can live with the
amperage rating, it's a nice self contained unit. The rr7 that gfretwell
suggested, does need a 24 volt power supply, but it has a high amperage
rating, and those relays will last forever.


*Roy I recently discovered these when a customer asked me to fix his closet
light. I thought that it was a nice compact unit that is made to fit in an
electrical box. It can also be used to replace relay switches. The OP
didn't mention what the load consisted of so I threw it out there for him to
decide if he could use it or not.

"John Grabowski" wrote in message
...

I'm looking for suggestions on a 24volt relay with contacts that can
handle 120V, 7 amps. I'm looking to install it to control a new 120V
outlet that is going in an attic and needs to be controlled by a 24V
signal to turn it on. So, I'm looking for one that is cost effective
and can be mounted in some simple type of wiring box. If it can go in
the same box as the outlet, even better. I'd like to make this code
compliant and do it right. Plenty of space is available as I can
mount just about anything on a stud in the unfinished attic.

Thanks for any input.

I was going to suggest a typical boiler relay like Taco SR501, but then I
saw both John Grabowski's, and gfretwell's replies, which make even more
sense. I don't know the one John suggested, but if you can live with the
amperage rating, it's a nice self contained unit. The rr7 that gfretwell
suggested, does need a 24 volt power supply, but it has a high amperage
rating, and those relays will last forever.


*Roy I recently discovered these when a customer asked me to fix his
closet light. I thought that it was a nice compact unit that is made to
fit in an electrical box. It can also be used to replace relay switches.
The OP didn't mention what the load consisted of so I threw it out there
for him to decide if he could use it or not.
It is a sweet little relay. It's kind of like the electric heat relays only
smaller. I've been buying from Tequipment recently, in fact I just got a
couple of proximity voltage testers today, and I got my last pair of Klein
lineman's from them. They have incredibly low prices, and being in NJ the
shipping is quick

I'm looking for suggestions on a 24volt relay with contacts that can
handle 120V, 7 amps. I'm looking to install it to control a new 120V
outlet that is going in an attic and needs to be controlled by a 24V
signal to turn it on. So, I'm looking for one that is cost effective
and can be mounted in some simple type of wiring box. If it can go in
the same box as the outlet, even better. I'd like to make this code
compliant and do it right. Plenty of space is available as I can
mount just about anything on a stud in the unfinished attic.

Thanks for any input.

I was going to suggest a typical boiler relay like Taco SR501, but then
I saw both John Grabowski's, and gfretwell's replies, which make even
more sense. I don't know the one John suggested, but if you can live
with the amperage rating, it's a nice self contained unit. The rr7 that
gfretwell suggested, does need a 24 volt power supply, but it has a high
amperage rating, and those relays will last forever.


*Roy I recently discovered these when a customer asked me to fix his
closet light. I thought that it was a nice compact unit that is made to
fit in an electrical box. It can also be used to replace relay switches.
The OP didn't mention what the load consisted of so I threw it out there
for him to decide if he could use it or not.
It is a sweet little relay. It's kind of like the electric heat relays
only smaller. I've been buying from Tequipment recently, in fact I just
got a couple of proximity voltage testers today, and I got my last pair of
Klein lineman's from them. They have incredibly low prices, and being in
NJ the shipping is quick


*The customer service at Tequipment was very good when I called for the
relay. I was going to drive down to pick it up, but the woman on the phone
said it would ship out the same day I called and I would have it the next
day. Sure enough I received it the next day. I will check out their prices
for tools.

On May 11, 3:12*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 11 May 2010 11:49:48 -0700 (PDT), horizon

wrote:
I'm looking for suggestions on a 24volt relay with contacts that can
handle 120V, 7 amps. *I'm looking to install it to control a new 120V
outlet that is going in an attic and needs to be controlled by a 24V
signal to turn it on. * So, I'm looking for one that is cost effective
and can be mounted in some simple type of wiring box. *If it can go in
the same box as the outlet, even better. * *I'd like to make this code
compliant and do it right. *Plenty of space is available as I can
mount just about anything on a stud in the unfinished attic.

Thanks for any input.

Try something like this

http://dale-electric.com/search.php?...facturer=&keyw....

The RR7 is a good choice
It has a turn on and a turn off coil and latches in the last state you
put it in. You control this with a momentary contact SPDT center off
sw.

I controlled a relay like this powering the coil with only 9v
batteries. Since there is no hold-in current required you can put a
capacitor in parallel with 3 9volt batteries and use a couple of push
buttons to control it. The batteries will last practically their shelf
life.

Jimmie

horizon wrote:
I'm looking for suggestions on a 24volt relay with contacts that can
handle 120V, 7 amps. I'm looking to install it to control a new 120V
outlet that is going in an attic and needs to be controlled by a 24V
signal to turn it on. So, I'm looking for one that is cost effective
and can be mounted in some simple type of wiring box. If it can go in
the same box as the outlet, even better. I'd like to make this code
compliant and do it right. Plenty of space is available as I can
mount just about anything on a stud in the unfinished attic.

Thanks for any input.

Radio Shack, and similar, have remote switches for electrical outlets. Meant
to control things like lamps from across the room by radio control, they may
very well fit your needs. They're very cheap, like under ten dollars.

On May 11, 6:21*pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:
I'm looking for suggestions on a 24volt relay with contacts that can
handle 120V, 7 amps. *I'm looking to install it to control a new 120V
outlet that is going in an attic and needs to be controlled by a 24V
signal to turn it on. * So, I'm looking for one that is cost effective
and can be mounted in some simple type of wiring box. *If it can go in
the same box as the outlet, even better. * *I'd like to make this code
compliant and do it right. *Plenty of space is available as I can
mount just about anything on a stud in the unfinished attic.

Thanks for any input.

I was going to suggest a typical boiler relay like Taco SR501, but then I
saw both John Grabowski's, and gfretwell's replies, which make even more
sense. I don't know the one John suggested, but if you can live with the
amperage rating, it's a nice self contained unit. The rr7 that gfretwell
suggested, does need a 24 volt power supply, but it has a high amperage
rating, and those relays will last forever.

*Roy I recently discovered these when a customer asked me to fix his closet
light. *I thought that it was a nice compact unit that is made to fit in an
electrical box. *It can also be used to replace relay switches. *The OP
didn't mention what the load consisted of so I threw it out there for him to
decide if he could use it or not.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Of the suggestions, it looks like the one that will work is Daring
Dufas's relay in a box suggestion.

http://www.functionaldevices.com/pdf/RIBU1CW.pdf

It meets all my requirements:

easy to mount as it comes in it's own box
15 amps so controlling outlet on 15 amp circuit is OK
takes 24V input
available online for $21

One remaining question. Someone mentioned isolation of the 24V
circuit from 120V circuit? I would assume that since an electrical
equipment manufacturer is making these relays and they are UL listed
they are OK and meet code for my application even though the 24V wires
obviously go into the same box as the 120V wires?

Thanks again for the suggestions

On May 12, 8:58*am, horizon wrote:
On May 11, 6:21*pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:





I'm looking for suggestions on a 24volt relay with contacts that can
handle 120V, 7 amps. *I'm looking to install it to control a new 120V
outlet that is going in an attic and needs to be controlled by a 24V
signal to turn it on. * So, I'm looking for one that is cost effective
and can be mounted in some simple type of wiring box. *If it can go in
the same box as the outlet, even better. * *I'd like to make this code
compliant and do it right. *Plenty of space is available as I can
mount just about anything on a stud in the unfinished attic.

Thanks for any input.

I was going to suggest a typical boiler relay like Taco SR501, but then I
saw both John Grabowski's, and gfretwell's replies, which make even more
sense. I don't know the one John suggested, but if you can live with the
amperage rating, it's a nice self contained unit. The rr7 that gfretwell
suggested, does need a 24 volt power supply, but it has a high amperage
rating, and those relays will last forever.

*Roy I recently discovered these when a customer asked me to fix his closet
light. *I thought that it was a nice compact unit that is made to fit in an
electrical box. *It can also be used to replace relay switches. *The OP
didn't mention what the load consisted of so I threw it out there for him to
decide if he could use it or not.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Of the suggestions, it looks like the one that will work is Daring
Dufas's relay in a box suggestion.

http://www.functionaldevices.com/pdf/RIBU1CW.pdf

It meets all my requirements:

easy to mount as it comes in it's own box
15 amps so controlling outlet on 15 amp circuit is OK
takes 24V input
available online for $21

One remaining question. *Someone mentioned isolation of the 24V
circuit from 120V circuit? * I would assume that since an electrical
equipment manufacturer is making these relays and they are UL listed
they are OK and meet code for my application even though the 24V wires
obviously go into the same box as the 120V wires?

Thanks again for the suggestions- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Happens inside your heating systems so I'm guessing it's ok. If you
want to go cheap look behind some hvac contractors on the weekend for
junk ac compressors. They all have a relay that is pulled with 24vac
and handles anywhere form 20 amps and up. The hvac guys call them
contactors but it's just a relay.

HVAC guys use 24 vac relays often enough. Should be easy
enough to get one.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

Stormin Mormon wrote:
HVAC guys use 24 vac relays often enough. Should be easy
enough to get one.


HVAC guys and control system guys like me use the RIB because
we're lazy and don't want to have to do a lot of screwing around
to accomplish a simple task. I'll pay $20 for a manufactured
solution rather than blow $100 worth of labor to build my own.
It's simple economics, I only build things that aren't available
off the shelf for a reasonable price.

TDD

RBM wrote:
It is a sweet little relay. It's kind of like the electric heat relays only
smaller. I've been buying from Tequipment recently, in fact I just got a
couple of proximity voltage testers today, and I got my last pair of Klein
lineman's from them. They have incredibly low prices, and being in NJ the
shipping is quick

Are they "Tequipment.net"?. I could always use a source of low priced
Klein tools.

horizon wrote:

One remaining question. Someone mentioned isolation of the 24V
circuit from 120V circuit? I would assume that since an electrical
equipment manufacturer is making these relays and they are UL listed
they are OK and meet code for my application even though the 24V wires
obviously go into the same box as the 120V wires?


They can both be in the same box when required - such as to connect to a
relay. Just keep the wires separate.

--
bud--

"horizon" wrote in message
...
On May 11, 6:21 pm, "John Grabowski"
wrote:
I'm looking for suggestions on a 24volt relay with contacts
that can
handle 120V, 7 amps. I'm looking to install it to control a
new 120V
outlet that is going in an attic and needs to be controlled
by a 24V
signal to turn it on. So, I'm looking for one that is cost
effective
and can be mounted in some simple type of wiring box. If it
can go in
the same box as the outlet, even better. I'd like to make
this code
compliant and do it right. Plenty of space is available as
I can
mount just about anything on a stud in the unfinished attic.

Thanks for any input.

I was going to suggest a typical boiler relay like Taco
SR501, but then I
saw both John Grabowski's, and gfretwell's replies, which
make even more
sense. I don't know the one John suggested, but if you can
live with the
amperage rating, it's a nice self contained unit. The rr7
that gfretwell
suggested, does need a 24 volt power supply, but it has a
high amperage
rating, and those relays will last forever.

*Roy I recently discovered these when a customer asked me to
fix his closet
light. I thought that it was a nice compact unit that is made
to fit in an
electrical box. It can also be used to replace relay switches.
The OP
didn't mention what the load consisted of so I threw it out
there for him to
decide if he could use it or not.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Of the suggestions, it looks like the one that will work is
Daring
Dufas's relay in a box suggestion.

http://www.functionaldevices.com/pdf/RIBU1CW.pdf

It meets all my requirements:

easy to mount as it comes in it's own box
15 amps so controlling outlet on 15 amp circuit is OK
takes 24V input
available online for $21

One remaining question. Someone mentioned isolation of the 24V
circuit from 120V circuit? I would assume that since an
electrical
equipment manufacturer is making these relays and they are UL
listed
they are OK and meet code for my application even though the 24V
wires
obviously go into the same box as the 120V wires?

Thanks again for the suggestions

That is one handy gizmo. How much are they? For anyone who
builds or plays around with home equipment, a few of those in the
spare parts bin would be terrific.

--
Nonny
On most days,
it's just not worth
the effort of chewing
through the restraints..

"horizon" wrote in message
...
On May 11, 6:21 pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:
I'm looking for suggestions on a 24volt relay with contacts that can
handle 120V, 7 amps. I'm looking to install it to control a new 120V
outlet that is going in an attic and needs to be controlled by a 24V
signal to turn it on. So, I'm looking for one that is cost effective
and can be mounted in some simple type of wiring box. If it can go in
the same box as the outlet, even better. I'd like to make this code
compliant and do it right. Plenty of space is available as I can
mount just about anything on a stud in the unfinished attic.

Thanks for any input.

I was going to suggest a typical boiler relay like Taco SR501, but then
I
saw both John Grabowski's, and gfretwell's replies, which make even more
sense. I don't know the one John suggested, but if you can live with the
amperage rating, it's a nice self contained unit. The rr7 that gfretwell
suggested, does need a 24 volt power supply, but it has a high amperage
rating, and those relays will last forever.

*Roy I recently discovered these when a customer asked me to fix his
closet
light. I thought that it was a nice compact unit that is made to fit in an
electrical box. It can also be used to replace relay switches. The OP
didn't mention what the load consisted of so I threw it out there for him
to
decide if he could use it or not.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Of the suggestions, it looks like the one that will work is Daring
Dufas's relay in a box suggestion.

http://www.functionaldevices.com/pdf/RIBU1CW.pdf

It meets all my requirements:

easy to mount as it comes in it's own box
15 amps so controlling outlet on 15 amp circuit is OK
takes 24V input
available online for $21

One remaining question. Someone mentioned isolation of the 24V
circuit from 120V circuit? I would assume that since an electrical
equipment manufacturer is making these relays and they are UL listed
they are OK and meet code for my application even though the 24V wires
obviously go into the same box as the 120V wires?

Thanks again for the suggestions

If there is not separation between line and low voltage compartments within
the enclosure, I would recommend connecting line voltage conductors to the
low voltage terminals, then run them outside the enclosure through a
knockout, where you can splice them to typical low voltage conductors.

On May 12, 1:28*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 12 May 2010 12:34:57 -0400, "RBM" wrote:

"horizon" wrote in message
....
On May 11, 6:21 pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:
I'm looking for suggestions on a 24volt relay with contacts that can
handle 120V, 7 amps. I'm looking to install it to control a new 120V
outlet that is going in an attic and needs to be controlled by a 24V
signal to turn it on. So, I'm looking for one that is cost effective
and can be mounted in some simple type of wiring box. If it can go in
the same box as the outlet, even better. I'd like to make this code
compliant and do it right. Plenty of space is available as I can
mount just about anything on a stud in the unfinished attic.

Thanks for any input.

I was going to suggest a typical boiler relay like Taco SR501, but then
I
saw both John Grabowski's, and gfretwell's replies, which make even more
sense. I don't know the one John suggested, but if you can live with the
amperage rating, it's a nice self contained unit. The rr7 that gfretwell
suggested, does need a 24 volt power supply, but it has a high amperage
rating, and those relays will last forever.

*Roy I recently discovered these when a customer asked me to fix his
closet
light. I thought that it was a nice compact unit that is made to fit in an
electrical box. It can also be used to replace relay switches. The OP
didn't mention what the load consisted of so I threw it out there for him
to
decide if he could use it or not.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Of the suggestions, it looks like the one that will work is Daring
Dufas's relay in a box suggestion.

http://www.functionaldevices.com/pdf/RIBU1CW.pdf

It meets all my requirements:

easy to mount as it comes in it's own box
15 amps so controlling outlet on 15 amp circuit is OK
takes 24V input
available online for $21

One remaining question. *Someone mentioned isolation of the 24V
circuit from 120V circuit? * I would assume that since an electrical
equipment manufacturer is making these relays and they are UL listed
they are OK and meet code for my application even though the 24V wires
obviously go into the same box as the 120V wires?

Thanks again for the suggestions

If there is not separation between line and low voltage compartments within
the enclosure, I would recommend connecting line voltage conductors to the
low voltage terminals, then run them outside the enclosure through a
knockout, where you can splice them to typical low voltage conductors.

When you have "low voltage" conductors in the same box as line voltage
the whole low voltage circuit needs to be treated as "class 1" which
means it needs to be treated the same as you would treat the line
voltage. Everything needs to be in a box, conduit or in a cable like
Romex, end to end.
When you have separation you can treat the low voltage side as "class
2" and you can take the liberties we usually have with "low voltage".
It is really a little more complicated than that but you see what the
general implications are.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I think I may see an out here. Upon closer inspection of the
datasheet, the "relay in a box" that I want to use has what appears to
be a plastic divider inside the box that seperates the low voltage
section from the line voltage. Essentially it's like two seperate
sections. Does this make it OK to use as I intended?

Here's a pic and the datasheet:

http://www.functionaldevices.com/pdf/RIBU1CW.pdf

I also looked at their app notes and they sure show a lot of
applications where similar relays are being used in end user type
installations as opposed to OEM.

wrote:
....

I think I may see an out here. Upon closer inspection of the
datasheet, the "relay in a box" that I want to use has what appears to
be a plastic divider inside the box that seperates the low voltage
section from the line voltage. Essentially it's like two seperate
sections. Does this make it OK to use as I intended?
....

Yes.

--

On May 11, 2:49*pm, horizon wrote:
I'm looking for suggestions on a 24volt relay with contacts that can
handle 120V, 7 amps. *I'm looking to install it to control a new 120V
outlet that is going in an attic and needs to be controlled by a 24V
signal to turn it on. * So, I'm looking for one that is cost effective
and can be mounted in some simple type of wiring box. *If it can go in
the same box as the outlet, even better. * *I'd like to make this code
compliant and do it right. *Plenty of space is available as I can
mount just about anything on a stud in the unfinished attic.

Thanks for any input.

MR-101 or PAM-1 should do what you need, also I think Air Products
sells a similar one that mounts to a knockout of a handy box which
might be exactly what you're looking for. Don't remember part number
off the top of my head.

You probably won't be able to mount it in the same box as the outlet
for box fill reasons. I'd put it up in the attic so you don't have a
blank plate showing in your living space.

nate

On May 12, 1:28*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 12 May 2010 12:34:57 -0400, "RBM" wrote:

"horizon" wrote in message
....
On May 11, 6:21 pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:
I'm looking for suggestions on a 24volt relay with contacts that can
handle 120V, 7 amps. I'm looking to install it to control a new 120V
outlet that is going in an attic and needs to be controlled by a 24V
signal to turn it on. So, I'm looking for one that is cost effective
and can be mounted in some simple type of wiring box. If it can go in
the same box as the outlet, even better. I'd like to make this code
compliant and do it right. Plenty of space is available as I can
mount just about anything on a stud in the unfinished attic.

Thanks for any input.

I was going to suggest a typical boiler relay like Taco SR501, but then
I
saw both John Grabowski's, and gfretwell's replies, which make even more
sense. I don't know the one John suggested, but if you can live with the
amperage rating, it's a nice self contained unit. The rr7 that gfretwell
suggested, does need a 24 volt power supply, but it has a high amperage
rating, and those relays will last forever.

*Roy I recently discovered these when a customer asked me to fix his
closet
light. I thought that it was a nice compact unit that is made to fit in an
electrical box. It can also be used to replace relay switches. The OP
didn't mention what the load consisted of so I threw it out there for him
to
decide if he could use it or not.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Of the suggestions, it looks like the one that will work is Daring
Dufas's relay in a box suggestion.

http://www.functionaldevices.com/pdf/RIBU1CW.pdf

It meets all my requirements:

easy to mount as it comes in it's own box
15 amps so controlling outlet on 15 amp circuit is OK
takes 24V input
available online for $21

One remaining question. *Someone mentioned isolation of the 24V
circuit from 120V circuit? * I would assume that since an electrical
equipment manufacturer is making these relays and they are UL listed
they are OK and meet code for my application even though the 24V wires
obviously go into the same box as the 120V wires?

Thanks again for the suggestions

If there is not separation between line and low voltage compartments within
the enclosure, I would recommend connecting line voltage conductors to the
low voltage terminals, then run them outside the enclosure through a
knockout, where you can splice them to typical low voltage conductors.

When you have "low voltage" conductors in the same box as line voltage
the whole low voltage circuit needs to be treated as "class 1" which
means it needs to be treated the same as you would treat the line
voltage. Everything needs to be in a box, conduit or in a cable like
Romex, end to end.
When you have separation you can treat the low voltage side as "class
2" and you can take the liberties we usually have with "low voltage".
It is really a little more complicated than that but you see what the
general implications are.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I wonder how it is that hvac components don't cause this issue.
Inside air handlers and outside units there is both 24vac and
110/220vac circuits. There is no specific separation of the wiring
inside the units. Low an dhigh get co-mingled all over the place
inside the units. And the 24vac wires go between units and the
thermostat without any special treatment. Does the brown jacket on
the low voltage wires count as satisfying the "class1" requirement?
Is all that is required a 2nd insulation layer like house wiring?
Because it would be easy enough to use thermostat wire for the low
side of whatever it is he is doing.

wrote:
On Wed, 12 May 2010 12:34:57 -0400, "RBM" wrote:

"horizon" wrote in message
...
On May 11, 6:21 pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:
I'm looking for suggestions on a 24volt relay with contacts that can
handle 120V, 7 amps. I'm looking to install it to control a new 120V
outlet that is going in an attic and needs to be controlled by a 24V
signal to turn it on. So, I'm looking for one that is cost effective
and can be mounted in some simple type of wiring box. If it can go in
the same box as the outlet, even better. I'd like to make this code
compliant and do it right. Plenty of space is available as I can
mount just about anything on a stud in the unfinished attic.
Thanks for any input.
I was going to suggest a typical boiler relay like Taco SR501, but then
I
saw both John Grabowski's, and gfretwell's replies, which make even more
sense. I don't know the one John suggested, but if you can live with the
amperage rating, it's a nice self contained unit. The rr7 that gfretwell
suggested, does need a 24 volt power supply, but it has a high amperage
rating, and those relays will last forever.
*Roy I recently discovered these when a customer asked me to fix his
closet
light. I thought that it was a nice compact unit that is made to fit in an
electrical box. It can also be used to replace relay switches. The OP
didn't mention what the load consisted of so I threw it out there for him
to
decide if he could use it or not.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Of the suggestions, it looks like the one that will work is Daring
Dufas's relay in a box suggestion.

http://www.functionaldevices.com/pdf/RIBU1CW.pdf

It meets all my requirements:

easy to mount as it comes in it's own box
15 amps so controlling outlet on 15 amp circuit is OK
takes 24V input
available online for $21

One remaining question. Someone mentioned isolation of the 24V
circuit from 120V circuit? I would assume that since an electrical
equipment manufacturer is making these relays and they are UL listed
they are OK and meet code for my application even though the 24V wires
obviously go into the same box as the 120V wires?

Thanks again for the suggestions

If there is not separation between line and low voltage compartments within
the enclosure, I would recommend connecting line voltage conductors to the
low voltage terminals, then run them outside the enclosure through a
knockout, where you can splice them to typical low voltage conductors.


When you have "low voltage" conductors in the same box as line voltage
the whole low voltage circuit needs to be treated as "class 1" which
means it needs to be treated the same as you would treat the line
voltage. Everything needs to be in a box, conduit or in a cable like
Romex, end to end.
When you have separation you can treat the low voltage side as "class
2" and you can take the liberties we usually have with "low voltage".
It is really a little more complicated than that but you see what the
general implications are.

"725.136-D Associated systems within enclosures
Class 2 and 3 circuit conductors in ...boxes... shall be permitted to be
installed with electric light, power... circuits where they are
introduced solely to connect the equipment connected to Class 2 and
Class 3 circuits, and where (1) OR (2) applies:
(1) The electric light, power... circuit conductors are routed to
maintain a minimum of 0.25 in. separation from the conductors and cables
of Class 2 and Class 3 circuits."

The separation required is 1/4" between conductors. The class 2
conductors can attach to the relay in Dufas's relay box as long as they
are kept 1/4" from power wires

Using a barrier is another method (725.136-B).

----------------
There should not be a problem with using a listed relay/contactor in a
listed box (where the combination is not listed together).

----------------
The relays that gfretwell and John showed take minimal space in normal
boxes, which makes them easy to use in normal wiring (in addition to
having the low voltage wires outside the box). It is an advantage if
they are installed where exposed (like a basement) to replace the relay
in the future. Both are available as 2 wire or latched (momentary) versions.

--
bud--

On May 13, 10:43*am, bud-- wrote:
wrote:
On Wed, 12 May 2010 12:34:57 -0400, "RBM" wrote:

"horizon" wrote in message
....
On May 11, 6:21 pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:
I'm looking for suggestions on a 24volt relay with contacts that can
handle 120V, 7 amps. I'm looking to install it to control a new 120V
outlet that is going in an attic and needs to be controlled by a 24V
signal to turn it on. So, I'm looking for one that is cost effective
and can be mounted in some simple type of wiring box. If it can go in
the same box as the outlet, even better. I'd like to make this code
compliant and do it right. Plenty of space is available as I can
mount just about anything on a stud in the unfinished attic.
Thanks for any input.
I was going to suggest a typical boiler relay like Taco SR501, but then
I
saw both John Grabowski's, and gfretwell's replies, which make even more
sense. I don't know the one John suggested, but if you can live with the
amperage rating, it's a nice self contained unit. The rr7 that gfretwell
suggested, does need a 24 volt power supply, but it has a high amperage
rating, and those relays will last forever.
*Roy I recently discovered these when a customer asked me to fix his
closet
light. I thought that it was a nice compact unit that is made to fit in an
electrical box. It can also be used to replace relay switches. The OP
didn't mention what the load consisted of so I threw it out there for him
to
decide if he could use it or not.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Of the suggestions, it looks like the one that will work is Daring
Dufas's relay in a box suggestion.

http://www.functionaldevices.com/pdf/RIBU1CW.pdf

It meets all my requirements:

easy to mount as it comes in it's own box
15 amps so controlling outlet on 15 amp circuit is OK
takes 24V input
available online for $21

One remaining question. *Someone mentioned isolation of the 24V
circuit from 120V circuit? * I would assume that since an electrical
equipment manufacturer is making these relays and they are UL listed
they are OK and meet code for my application even though the 24V wires
obviously go into the same box as the 120V wires?

Thanks again for the suggestions

If there is not separation between line and low voltage compartments within
the enclosure, I would recommend connecting line voltage conductors to the
low voltage terminals, then run them outside the enclosure through a
knockout, where you can splice them to typical low voltage conductors.

When you have "low voltage" conductors in the same box as line voltage
the whole low voltage circuit needs to be treated as "class 1" which
means it needs to be treated the same as you would treat the line
voltage. Everything needs to be in a box, conduit or in a cable like
Romex, end to end.
When you have separation you can treat the low voltage side as "class
2" and you can take the liberties we usually have with "low voltage".
It is really a little more complicated than that but you see what the
general implications are.

"725.136-D Associated systems within enclosures
Class 2 and 3 circuit conductors in ...boxes... shall be permitted to be
installed with electric light, power... circuits where they are
introduced solely to connect the equipment connected to Class 2 and
Class 3 circuits, and where (1) OR (2) applies:
(1) The electric light, power... circuit conductors are routed to
maintain a minimum of 0.25 in. separation from the conductors and cables
of Class 2 and Class 3 circuits."

The separation required is 1/4" between conductors. The class 2
conductors can attach to the relay in Dufas's relay box as long as they
are kept 1/4" from power wires

Using a barrier is another method (725.136-B).

----------------
There should not be a problem with using a listed relay/contactor in a
listed box (where the combination is not listed together).

----------------
The relays that gfretwell and John showed take minimal space in normal
boxes, which makes them easy to use in normal wiring (in addition to
having the low voltage wires outside the box). It is an advantage if
they are installed where exposed (like a basement) to replace the relay
in the future. Both are available as 2 wire or latched (momentary) versions.

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Only a 1/4", that makes it pretty easy.

wrote:
On May 12, 1:28 pm, wrote:
On Wed, 12 May 2010 12:34:57 -0400, "RBM" wrote:

"horizon" wrote in message
...
On May 11, 6:21 pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:
I'm looking for suggestions on a 24volt relay with contacts that can
handle 120V, 7 amps. I'm looking to install it to control a new 120V
outlet that is going in an attic and needs to be controlled by a 24V
signal to turn it on. So, I'm looking for one that is cost effective
and can be mounted in some simple type of wiring box. If it can go in
the same box as the outlet, even better. I'd like to make this code
compliant and do it right. Plenty of space is available as I can
mount just about anything on a stud in the unfinished attic.
Thanks for any input.
I was going to suggest a typical boiler relay like Taco SR501, but then
I
saw both John Grabowski's, and gfretwell's replies, which make even more
sense. I don't know the one John suggested, but if you can live with the
amperage rating, it's a nice self contained unit. The rr7 that gfretwell
suggested, does need a 24 volt power supply, but it has a high amperage
rating, and those relays will last forever.
*Roy I recently discovered these when a customer asked me to fix his
closet
light. I thought that it was a nice compact unit that is made to fit in an
electrical box. It can also be used to replace relay switches. The OP
didn't mention what the load consisted of so I threw it out there for him
to
decide if he could use it or not.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Of the suggestions, it looks like the one that will work is Daring
Dufas's relay in a box suggestion.
http://www.functionaldevices.com/pdf/RIBU1CW.pdf
It meets all my requirements:
easy to mount as it comes in it's own box
15 amps so controlling outlet on 15 amp circuit is OK
takes 24V input
available online for $21
One remaining question. Someone mentioned isolation of the 24V
circuit from 120V circuit? I would assume that since an electrical
equipment manufacturer is making these relays and they are UL listed
they are OK and meet code for my application even though the 24V wires
obviously go into the same box as the 120V wires?
Thanks again for the suggestions
If there is not separation between line and low voltage compartments within
the enclosure, I would recommend connecting line voltage conductors to the
low voltage terminals, then run them outside the enclosure through a
knockout, where you can splice them to typical low voltage conductors.
When you have "low voltage" conductors in the same box as line voltage
the whole low voltage circuit needs to be treated as "class 1" which
means it needs to be treated the same as you would treat the line
voltage. Everything needs to be in a box, conduit or in a cable like
Romex, end to end.
When you have separation you can treat the low voltage side as "class
2" and you can take the liberties we usually have with "low voltage".
It is really a little more complicated than that but you see what the
general implications are.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I think I may see an out here. Upon closer inspection of the
datasheet, the "relay in a box" that I want to use has what appears to
be a plastic divider inside the box that seperates the low voltage
section from the line voltage. Essentially it's like two seperate
sections. Does this make it OK to use as I intended?

Here's a pic and the datasheet:

http://www.functionaldevices.com/pdf/RIBU1CW.pdf

I also looked at their app notes and they sure show a lot of
applications where similar relays are being used in end user type
installations as opposed to OEM.

I love their products, they save me a lot of time and money. I
keep a few general purpose models in stock. All of the trades,
electronic and industrial supply houses around here sell them.

TDD

jamesgangnc wrote:
On May 13, 10:43 am, bud-- wrote:
wrote:
On Wed, 12 May 2010 12:34:57 -0400, "RBM" wrote:
"horizon" wrote in message
...
On May 11, 6:21 pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:
I'm looking for suggestions on a 24volt relay with contacts that can
handle 120V, 7 amps. I'm looking to install it to control a new 120V
outlet that is going in an attic and needs to be controlled by a 24V
signal to turn it on. So, I'm looking for one that is cost effective
and can be mounted in some simple type of wiring box. If it can go in
the same box as the outlet, even better. I'd like to make this code
compliant and do it right. Plenty of space is available as I can
mount just about anything on a stud in the unfinished attic.
Thanks for any input.
I was going to suggest a typical boiler relay like Taco SR501, but then
I
saw both John Grabowski's, and gfretwell's replies, which make even more
sense. I don't know the one John suggested, but if you can live with the
amperage rating, it's a nice self contained unit. The rr7 that gfretwell
suggested, does need a 24 volt power supply, but it has a high amperage
rating, and those relays will last forever.
*Roy I recently discovered these when a customer asked me to fix his
closet
light. I thought that it was a nice compact unit that is made to fit in an
electrical box. It can also be used to replace relay switches. The OP
didn't mention what the load consisted of so I threw it out there for him
to
decide if he could use it or not.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Of the suggestions, it looks like the one that will work is Daring
Dufas's relay in a box suggestion.
http://www.functionaldevices.com/pdf/RIBU1CW.pdf
It meets all my requirements:
easy to mount as it comes in it's own box
15 amps so controlling outlet on 15 amp circuit is OK
takes 24V input
available online for $21
One remaining question. Someone mentioned isolation of the 24V
circuit from 120V circuit? I would assume that since an electrical
equipment manufacturer is making these relays and they are UL listed
they are OK and meet code for my application even though the 24V wires
obviously go into the same box as the 120V wires?
Thanks again for the suggestions
If there is not separation between line and low voltage compartments within
the enclosure, I would recommend connecting line voltage conductors to the
low voltage terminals, then run them outside the enclosure through a
knockout, where you can splice them to typical low voltage conductors.
When you have "low voltage" conductors in the same box as line voltage
the whole low voltage circuit needs to be treated as "class 1" which
means it needs to be treated the same as you would treat the line
voltage. Everything needs to be in a box, conduit or in a cable like
Romex, end to end.
When you have separation you can treat the low voltage side as "class
2" and you can take the liberties we usually have with "low voltage".
It is really a little more complicated than that but you see what the
general implications are.
"725.136-D Associated systems within enclosures
Class 2 and 3 circuit conductors in ...boxes... shall be permitted to be
installed with electric light, power... circuits where they are
introduced solely to connect the equipment connected to Class 2 and
Class 3 circuits, and where (1) OR (2) applies:
(1) The electric light, power... circuit conductors are routed to
maintain a minimum of 0.25 in. separation from the conductors and cables
of Class 2 and Class 3 circuits."

The separation required is 1/4" between conductors. The class 2
conductors can attach to the relay in Dufas's relay box as long as they
are kept 1/4" from power wires

Using a barrier is another method (725.136-B).

----------------
There should not be a problem with using a listed relay/contactor in a
listed box (where the combination is not listed together).

----------------
The relays that gfretwell and John showed take minimal space in normal
boxes, which makes them easy to use in normal wiring (in addition to
having the low voltage wires outside the box). It is an advantage if
they are installed where exposed (like a basement) to replace the relay
in the future. Both are available as 2 wire or latched (momentary) versions.

--
bud--

Only a 1/4", that makes it pretty easy.

And that applies to field wiring.

Factor wiring is covered by UL, which can have very different requirements.

--
bud--

In ,
horizon typed:
I'm looking for suggestions on a 24volt relay with contacts
that can handle 120V, 7 amps. I'm looking to install it to
control a new 120V outlet that is going in an attic and
needs to be controlled by a 24V signal to turn it on. So,
I'm looking for one that is cost effective and can be
mounted in some simple type of wiring box. If it can go in
the same box as the outlet, even better. I'd like to
make this code compliant and do it right. Plenty of space
is available as I can mount just about anything on a stud
in the unfinished attic.

Thanks for any input.

Check out X10.com. They have what you need, it's wireless, and requires
nothing special but an outlet. You could have as many switches to control it
as you wanted. Right now it's $19.99 but prices change often there.
I've nothing to gain from them; just love their toys & products.

HTH,

Twayne`

On May 13, 4:39*pm, "Twayne" wrote:
,
horizon typed:

I'm looking for suggestions on a 24volt relay with contacts
that can handle 120V, 7 amps. *I'm looking to install it to
control a new 120V outlet that is going in an attic and
needs to be controlled by a 24V signal to turn it on. * So,
I'm looking for one that is cost effective and can be
mounted in some simple type of wiring box. *If it can go in
the same box as the outlet, even better. * *I'd like to
make this code compliant and do it right. *Plenty of space
is available as I can mount just about anything on a stud
in the unfinished attic.

Thanks for any input.

Check out X10.com. They have what you need, it's wireless, and requires
nothing special but an outlet. You could have as many switches to control it
as you wanted. Right now it's $19.99 but prices change often there.
* *I've nothing to gain from them; just love their toys & products.

HTH,

Twayne`

Thanks for the suggestion, but I can't use X10 for two reasons. One
is the control signal comes from a controller that already supplies a
24volt output. That also rules out some of the suggestions where the
transformer function is already included in the relay. The second
problem with X10 is reliability is a concern.

I still think Daring Dufas's relay in a box fits all the reqts.

wrote:
On Thu, 13 May 2010 09:43:48 -0500, bud--
wrote:

When you have "low voltage" conductors in the same box as line voltage
the whole low voltage circuit needs to be treated as "class 1" which
means it needs to be treated the same as you would treat the line
voltage. Everything needs to be in a box, conduit or in a cable like
Romex, end to end.
When you have separation you can treat the low voltage side as "class
2" and you can take the liberties we usually have with "low voltage".
It is really a little more complicated than that but you see what the
general implications are.
"725.136-D Associated systems within enclosures
Class 2 and 3 circuit conductors in ...boxes... shall be permitted to be
installed with electric light, power... circuits where they are
introduced solely to connect the equipment connected to Class 2 and
Class 3 circuits, and where (1) OR (2) applies:
(1) The electric light, power... circuit conductors are routed to
maintain a minimum of 0.25 in. separation from the conductors and cables
of Class 2 and Class 3 circuits."

The separation required is 1/4" between conductors. The class 2
conductors can attach to the relay in Dufas's relay box as long as they
are kept 1/4" from power wires

Using a barrier is another method (725.136-B).

----------------
There should not be a problem with using a listed relay/contactor in a
listed box (where the combination is not listed together).


This is generally read to say that the entire class 2 system is inside
that enclosure. You can't take a wire out of there to another place
and still call it class 2.

If the wires can't leave the box there is no particular usefulness in
being class 2 - they can be class 1.

The section quoted above says class 2 wires are "introduced solely to
connect the equipment". Reasonably read, "introduced" can mean to enter
the enclosure from the outside.

It is common practice for class 2 thermostat wires to enter a
"compartment" in a furnace/boiler where there are exposed insulated
power wires. IMHO the section I quoted allows that practice if the class
2 wires are kept separate from the power wires.

I dug out an old copy of UL913 which is for intrinsically safe
apparatus. As you are no doubt aware, intrinsically safe wiring is a lot
touchier than class 2. The standard has several methods to separate
field wiring terminals for intrinsically safe circuits from power
wiring. One of the methods is to separate the terminals by 2" (and
there are requirements for insulation rating and securing the wiring).
Intrinsically safe wiring can be in the same enclosure (like a control
panel) as the power wiring and terminate in the enclosure. The
intrinsically safe wiring is certainly intended to leave the enclosure.

The handbook commentary on that section says
"Power circuit and Class 2 circuit conductors can be permitted in the
same motor-starter enclosure, where the Class 2 circuit source is the
secondary of a control transformer in the same motor-starter
enclosure. In such an installation, the Class 2 conductor insulation
is not required to have the same voltage rating as the insulation on
the power conductors in the same enclosure."

Doesn't say the wires can't leave the box.

There is plenty of confusing language in 725. I think the whole thing
should be evaluated and parts totally rewritten. You really have to be
careful cherry picking out a few lines and believing that applies to
your installation. Generally speaking you really need separation
between class 2/3 and line power circuits. That is why they have class
1.

Separation? Like the 1/4" specified in the section I quoted?

Cherry picking?

725.136-A says class 2 (and 3) wires can't be in the same box,
compartment, raceway, ... with power and light wiring - *except* as
permitted by 725.136-B through I.

Several of these provisions (B, C, G) allow the combination if class 2
wiring is separated by a physical barrier. The clear intent to me is
that the barrier allows the class 2 to remain class 2. IMHO D-1, which I
quoted, similarly allows class 2 to remain class 2.

The section I quoted, 725.136-D, essentially has 3 parts (I quoted only
the first). Class 2 wires are allowed in an enclosure if it meets any
*one* of the parts
- separation of power and class 2 wires by at least 1/4"
- specified class 2 cable jacket and separation or barrier for wires
outside the jacket
- else the class 2 circuit becomes a class 1 circuit.
Becoming class 1 is a possibility, but only if one of the first 2
provisions is not met.

Things that go on inside listed equipment do not necessarily apply to
things you assemble yourself. Even there, the use of barriers is
becoming the norm. The barrier itself may just be a little piece of
mylar that the installer throws away but it was there when the product
was listed. You also have to remember, cable jackets provide
separation, so if the terminations are separated, the jacketed cable
can go through the box.

For listed complete products the instructions from the manufacturer,
based on UL requirements, predominate.

If I put a UL listed contactor/relay in an appropriate box, and the
installation follows the listing for the contactor/relay, I don't see
why the NEC does not apply - specifically 725.136-D-1. What is the
violation?

That also means you CAN pull a low voltage cable and line voltage
cable in the same raceway,as long as you have separation where they
terminate.

Hold your nose legal ... Pull your CAT5 and Romex through the same
conduit, extend the CAT 5 through the box and terminate it in a LV
ring next to the box. Some might argue that you need a separation
between the place where you split open the RX jacket and the exit of
the CAT 5 but if you went in and out in the back of the box with the
LV cable, stuffed in a mylar insulator and split the RX jacket on the
outside of that you comply.
A little dodgier is CAT 5 and THHN in the same pipe. Most AHJs will
not let that fly.

You have posted that previously and it seemed quite reasonable.

When I looked at 725.136, it looks like class 2 and power can be in the
same raceway *if* the power (or class 2) is wired in UF (725.136-I).
What allows class 2 and Romex? Do the jackets constitute a "barrier"
(725.136-B)?

--
bud--

On May 13, 7:32*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 13 May 2010 17:16:30 -0500, bud--
wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 13 May 2010 09:43:48 -0500, bud--
wrote:

This is generally read to say that the entire class 2 system is inside
that enclosure. You can't take a wire out of there to another place
and still call it class 2.

If the wires can't leave the box there is no particular usefulness in
being class 2 - they can be class 1.

It would allow the use of a class 2 listed transformer.

The section quoted above says class 2 wires are "introduced solely to
connect the equipment". Reasonably read, "introduced" can mean to enter
the enclosure from the outside.

It is common practice for class 2 thermostat wires to enter a
"compartment" in a furnace/boiler where there are exposed insulated
power wires. IMHO the section I quoted allows that practice if the class
2 wires are kept separate from the power wires.

Again this is a listed assembly and I bet a new one has some kind of
plastic barrier when it is shipped. It may not make it through the
installation process and electrical inspectors don't really look
inside that equipment.

It is an interesting question I will bring up with the IAEI..



I dug out an old copy of *UL913 which is for intrinsically safe
apparatus. As you are no doubt aware, intrinsically safe wiring is a lot
touchier than class 2. The standard has several methods to separate
field wiring terminals for intrinsically safe circuits from power
wiring. One of *the methods is to separate the terminals by 2" (and
there are requirements for insulation rating and securing the wiring).
Intrinsically safe wiring can be in the same enclosure (like a control
panel) as the power wiring and terminate in the enclosure. The
intrinsically safe wiring is certainly intended to leave the enclosure.

You can certainly try it and see what your AHJ says but I doubt it
would fly with any inspector I know.

If I put a UL listed contactor/relay in an appropriate box, and the
installation follows the listing for the contactor/relay, I don't see
why the NEC does not apply - specifically 725.136-D-1. What is the
violation?

A lot depends on how that part is listed





That also means you CAN pull a low voltage cable and line voltage
cable in the same raceway,as long as you have separation where they
terminate.

Hold your nose legal ... Pull your CAT5 and Romex through the same
conduit, extend the CAT 5 through the box and terminate it in a LV
ring next to the box. Some might argue that you need a separation
between the place where you split open the RX jacket and the exit of
the CAT 5 but if you went in and out in the back of the box with the
LV cable, stuffed in a mylar insulator and split the RX jacket on the
outside of that you comply.
A little dodgier is CAT 5 and THHN in the same pipe. Most AHJs will
not let that fly.

You have posted that previously and it seemed quite reasonable.

When I looked at 725.136, it looks like class 2 and power can be in the
same raceway *if* the power (or class 2) is wired in UF (725.136-I).
What allows class 2 and Romex? Do the jackets constitute a "barrier"
(725.136-B)?

BTW there are plenty of inspectors who say I am wrong about this "both
in the same pipe" thing. They are far more restrictive about how class
2 and line voltages need to be separated.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'll have to pay more attention next time I have one of my ac's or
heat pumps opened up. I've never noticed any plastic separators even
in a new unit. On straight AC the only 24vac is to pull the main
relay. That starts the whole thing up. On a hneat pump you have that
as well as 24vac switching the unit between airconditioning and heat.

wrote:
On Thu, 13 May 2010 17:16:30 -0500, bud--
wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 13 May 2010 09:43:48 -0500, bud--
wrote:


This is generally read to say that the entire class 2 system is inside
that enclosure. You can't take a wire out of there to another place
and still call it class 2.
If the wires can't leave the box there is no particular usefulness in
being class 2 - they can be class 1.


It would allow the use of a class 2 listed transformer.

The section quoted above says class 2 wires are "introduced solely to
connect the equipment". Reasonably read, "introduced" can mean to enter
the enclosure from the outside.

IMHO "introduced" clearly allows external class 2 wires to enter a box
to connect to "the equipment connected to Class 2 ... circuits".

As I said in my previous post, 725.136-D has 3 options for class 2
wiring entering a box that has power wiring. Separation by at least 1/4"
is one option. Only if the first 2 options are not used does 136-D
explicitly require the class 2 wiring be class 1.

It is common practice for class 2 thermostat wires to enter a
"compartment" in a furnace/boiler where there are exposed insulated
power wires. IMHO the section I quoted allows that practice if the class
2 wires are kept separate from the power wires.

Again this is a listed assembly and I bet a new one has some kind of
plastic barrier when it is shipped. It may not make it through the
installation process and electrical inspectors don't really look
inside that equipment.

It is an interesting question I will bring up with the IAEI..

I agree that it is listed apparatus and should generally be beyond your
purview (if wired according to manufacturer instructions). But it is
compliant with what I understand is permitted by 725.136-D (class 2 and
power wires in the same "compartment").

I dug out an old copy of UL913 which is for intrinsically safe
apparatus. As you are no doubt aware, intrinsically safe wiring is a lot
touchier than class 2. The standard has several methods to separate
field wiring terminals for intrinsically safe circuits from power
wiring. One of the methods is to separate the terminals by 2" (and
there are requirements for insulation rating and securing the wiring).
Intrinsically safe wiring can be in the same enclosure (like a control
panel) as the power wiring and terminate in the enclosure. The
intrinsically safe wiring is certainly intended to leave the enclosure.

You can certainly try it and see what your AHJ says but I doubt it
would fly with any inspector I know.

The AHJ would be arguing with what is explicitly allowed by UL.
And, IMHO, what is allowed by 725.136-D.

That also means you CAN pull a low voltage cable and line voltage
cable in the same raceway,as long as you have separation where they
terminate.

Hold your nose legal ... Pull your CAT5 and Romex through the same
conduit, extend the CAT 5 through the box and terminate it in a LV
ring next to the box. Some might argue that you need a separation
between the place where you split open the RX jacket and the exit of
the CAT 5 but if you went in and out in the back of the box with the
LV cable, stuffed in a mylar insulator and split the RX jacket on the
outside of that you comply.
A little dodgier is CAT 5 and THHN in the same pipe. Most AHJs will
not let that fly.
You have posted that previously and it seemed quite reasonable.

When I looked at 725.136, it looks like class 2 and power can be in the
same raceway *if* the power (or class 2) is wired in UF (725.136-I).
What allows class 2 and Romex? Do the jackets constitute a "barrier"
(725.136-B)?


BTW there are plenty of inspectors who say I am wrong about this "both
in the same pipe" thing. They are far more restrictive about how class
2 and line voltages need to be separated.

But inspectors enforce the same code.......

I thought your options sounded reasonable.

IMHO 725.136-I clearly allows THHN power wires in the same raceway with
class 2 that is in UF. Now if they would just make #18 UF...

I always liked taping UF with class 2 to the power conduit for
installations like external condenser/compressors.

--
bud--

On 11/05/10 11:49 AM, horizon wrote:
I'm looking for suggestions on a 24volt relay with contacts that can
handle 120V, 7 amps. I'm looking to install it to control a new 120V
outlet that is going in an attic and needs to be controlled by a 24V
signal to turn it on. So, I'm looking for one that is cost effective
and can be mounted in some simple type of wiring box. If it can go in
the same box as the outlet, even better. I'd like to make this code
compliant and do it right. Plenty of space is available as I can
mount just about anything on a stud in the unfinished attic.

Thanks for any input.

24VAC or 24VDC?

For 24VAC what you want is a pump start relay that works with 24VAC
sprinkler systems. Already complete in a box. Start he
"http://www.google.com/products?q=pump+relay+irrigation&hl=en&aq=f".

For a 24VDC coil, 10A contacts relay go to
"http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/RLY-2024/24-VDC-DPDT-10-AMP-RELAY//1.html".
You'll have to put it into an enclosure yourself.

jamesgangnc wrote:
On May 13, 7:32 pm, wrote:
On Thu, 13 May 2010 17:16:30 -0500, bud--
wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 13 May 2010 09:43:48 -0500, bud--
wrote:
This is generally read to say that the entire class 2 system is inside
that enclosure. You can't take a wire out of there to another place
and still call it class 2.
If the wires can't leave the box there is no particular usefulness in
being class 2 - they can be class 1.
It would allow the use of a class 2 listed transformer.

The section quoted above says class 2 wires are "introduced solely to
connect the equipment". Reasonably read, "introduced" can mean to enter
the enclosure from the outside.
It is common practice for class 2 thermostat wires to enter a
"compartment" in a furnace/boiler where there are exposed insulated
power wires. IMHO the section I quoted allows that practice if the class
2 wires are kept separate from the power wires.
Again this is a listed assembly and I bet a new one has some kind of
plastic barrier when it is shipped. It may not make it through the
installation process and electrical inspectors don't really look
inside that equipment.

It is an interesting question I will bring up with the IAEI..



I dug out an old copy of UL913 which is for intrinsically safe
apparatus. As you are no doubt aware, intrinsically safe wiring is a lot
touchier than class 2. The standard has several methods to separate
field wiring terminals for intrinsically safe circuits from power
wiring. One of the methods is to separate the terminals by 2" (and
there are requirements for insulation rating and securing the wiring).
Intrinsically safe wiring can be in the same enclosure (like a control
panel) as the power wiring and terminate in the enclosure. The
intrinsically safe wiring is certainly intended to leave the enclosure.
You can certainly try it and see what your AHJ says but I doubt it
would fly with any inspector I know.

If I put a UL listed contactor/relay in an appropriate box, and the
installation follows the listing for the contactor/relay, I don't see
why the NEC does not apply - specifically 725.136-D-1. What is the
violation?
A lot depends on how that part is listed





That also means you CAN pull a low voltage cable and line voltage
cable in the same raceway,as long as you have separation where they
terminate.
Hold your nose legal ... Pull your CAT5 and Romex through the same
conduit, extend the CAT 5 through the box and terminate it in a LV
ring next to the box. Some might argue that you need a separation
between the place where you split open the RX jacket and the exit of
the CAT 5 but if you went in and out in the back of the box with the
LV cable, stuffed in a mylar insulator and split the RX jacket on the
outside of that you comply.
A little dodgier is CAT 5 and THHN in the same pipe. Most AHJs will
not let that fly.
You have posted that previously and it seemed quite reasonable.
When I looked at 725.136, it looks like class 2 and power can be in the
same raceway *if* the power (or class 2) is wired in UF (725.136-I).
What allows class 2 and Romex? Do the jackets constitute a "barrier"
(725.136-B)?
BTW there are plenty of inspectors who say I am wrong about this "both
in the same pipe" thing. They are far more restrictive about how class
2 and line voltages need to be separated.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'll have to pay more attention next time I have one of my ac's or
heat pumps opened up. I've never noticed any plastic separators even
in a new unit. On straight AC the only 24vac is to pull the main
relay. That starts the whole thing up. On a hneat pump you have that
as well as 24vac switching the unit between airconditioning and heat.

I pictured the plastic separator type in a building, not in the unit.

wrote:
On Fri, 14 May 2010 10:09:12 -0500, bud--
wrote:

I always liked taping UF with class 2 to the power conduit for
installations like external condenser/compressors.

--
bud--

That would get you two violations here.
Using a cable as support and using UF as a whip.
You can tape the thermo cable to the (freon) line set but they still
want a liquidtight raceway for the power.

OMG - a virtual red tag.

No sure I was clear on what I meant. When I was installing them long ago
I used sealtite conduit for power. (Or Minneapolis allowed, and probably
preferred back then, flex.)

I suggested tying class 2, in UF, to the sealtight - which is allowed
(300.11-B-2).

I would rather keep the wiring away from the refer guys, but reading
your post reminded me that I tied the UF to the insulated low pressure
line - the hole the refer guys put into the house was too convenient.


I wouldn't want to run power and class 2 in the same raceway even if
allowed.

======================
If I remember right, a couple people linked to your website for the
drill rig explosion/fire. Nice piece.

--
bud--

In ,
bud-- typed:
wrote:
On Thu, 13 May 2010 17:16:30 -0500, bud--
wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 13 May 2010 09:43:48 -0500, bud--
wrote:


This is generally read to say that the entire class 2
system is inside that enclosure. You can't take a wire
out of there to another place and still call it class 2.
If the wires can't leave the box there is no particular
usefulness in being class 2 - they can be class 1.


It would allow the use of a class 2 listed transformer.

The section quoted above says class 2 wires are
"introduced solely to connect the equipment". Reasonably
read, "introduced" can mean to enter the enclosure from
the outside.

IMHO "introduced" clearly allows external class 2 wires to
enter a box to connect to "the equipment connected to Class
2 ... circuits".
As I said in my previous post, 725.136-D has 3 options for
class 2 wiring entering a box that has power wiring.
Separation by at least 1/4" is one option. Only if the
first 2 options are not used does 136-D explicitly require
the class 2 wiring be class 1.
It is common practice for class 2 thermostat wires to
enter a "compartment" in a furnace/boiler where there are
exposed insulated power wires. IMHO the section I quoted
allows that practice if the class 2 wires are kept
separate from the power wires.

Again this is a listed assembly and I bet a new one has
some kind of plastic barrier when it is shipped. It may
not make it through the installation process and
electrical inspectors don't really look inside that
equipment. It is an interesting question I will bring up with the
IAEI..

I agree that it is listed apparatus and should generally be
beyond your purview (if wired according to manufacturer
instructions). But it is compliant with what I understand
is permitted by 725.136-D (class 2 and power wires in the
same "compartment").
I dug out an old copy of UL913 which is for
intrinsically safe apparatus. As you are no doubt aware,
intrinsically safe wiring is a lot touchier than class 2.
The standard has several methods to separate field wiring
terminals for intrinsically safe circuits from power
wiring. One of the methods is to separate the terminals
by 2" (and there are requirements for insulation rating
and securing the wiring). Intrinsically safe wiring can
be in the same enclosure (like a control panel) as the
power wiring and terminate in the enclosure. The
intrinsically safe wiring is certainly intended to leave
the enclosure.

You can certainly try it and see what your AHJ says but I
doubt it would fly with any inspector I know.

The AHJ would be arguing with what is explicitly allowed by
UL. And, IMHO, what is allowed by 725.136-D.

That also means you CAN pull a low voltage cable and
line voltage cable in the same raceway,as long as you
have separation where they terminate.

Hold your nose legal ... Pull your CAT5 and Romex
through the same conduit, extend the CAT 5 through the
box and terminate it in a LV ring next to the box. Some
might argue that you need a separation between the place
where you split open the RX jacket and the exit of the
CAT 5 but if you went in and out in the back of the box
with the LV cable, stuffed in a mylar insulator and
split the RX jacket on the outside of that you comply. A little dodgier
is CAT 5 and THHN in the same pipe.
Most AHJs will not let that fly.
You have posted that previously and it seemed quite
reasonable. When I looked at 725.136, it looks like class 2 and power
can be in the same raceway *if* the power (or class 2) is
wired in UF (725.136-I). What allows class 2 and Romex?
Do the jackets constitute a "barrier" (725.136-B)?


BTW there are plenty of inspectors who say I am wrong
about this "both in the same pipe" thing. They are far
more restrictive about how class 2 and line voltages need
to be separated.

But inspectors enforce the same code.......

I thought your options sounded reasonable.

IMHO 725.136-I clearly allows THHN power wires in the same
raceway with class 2 that is in UF. Now if they would just
make #18 UF...
I always liked taping UF with class 2 to the power conduit
for installations like external condenser/compressors.

A "Class 2" xfmr is simply a double-insulated transformer without an earth
ground on its plug, nor a polarized plug.
A "Class 1" xfmr requires a third wire, the earth ground pin on its plug.
The "Class of xfmr is a UL/CSA et al classification which approves the xfmr
and nothing else as safety approved. Secondary ckts attached to the output
of a xfmr are not subject to UL/CSA et al safety testing unless a voltage in
it equals or is more than 42VDC or 42V ac p-p. The original spec, UL1459
(now superceded but not changed in this area) is online for those who wish
to read it. I -think- the CSA spec was CS-03.
Whatever class 1 & 2 means ckt-wise, I don't know; it's not a UL/CSA et
al type spec but might be NEC, NFPA or otherwise.

HTH,

Twayne`

Twayne wrote:

A "Class 2" xfmr is simply a double-insulated transformer without an earth
ground on its plug, nor a polarized plug.
A "Class 1" xfmr requires a third wire, the earth ground pin on its plug.
The "Class of xfmr is a UL/CSA et al classification which approves the xfmr
and nothing else as safety approved.

The primary characteristic of class 1, 2, and 3 power sources is that
they are power limited. There is a specified maximum voltage, current
and power you can get from the source. For a class 2 24V transformer the
max current is 8A - the maximum current you get if you short circuit the
transformer.

Because the power is limited, the downstream circuit does not have to
meet the general wiring requirements of the NEC. Article 725 is used
instead.

Secondary ckts attached to the output
of a xfmr are not subject to UL/CSA et al safety testing unless a voltage in
it equals or is more than 42VDC or 42V ac p-p. The original spec, UL1459
(now superceded but not changed in this area) is online for those who wish
to read it. I -think- the CSA spec was CS-03.
Whatever class 1 & 2 means ckt-wise, I don't know; it's not a UL/CSA et
al type spec but might be NEC, NFPA or otherwise.

HTH,

Twayne`

In ,
bud-- typed:
Twayne wrote:

A "Class 2" xfmr is simply a double-insulated transformer
without an earth ground on its plug, nor a polarized plug.
A "Class 1" xfmr requires a third wire, the earth ground
pin on its plug. The "Class of xfmr is a UL/CSA et al
classification which approves the xfmr and nothing else as
safety approved.

The primary characteristic of class 1, 2, and 3 power
sources is that they are power limited. There is a
specified maximum voltage, current and power you can get
from the source. For a class 2 24V transformer the max
current is 8A - the maximum current you get if you short
circuit the transformer.

I think you're confused between class definitions for Safety and what the
NEC defines; they are different.

Class 1, 2, and 3 CIRCUITS are classified as remote-control, signaling, and
power-limited circuits in the National Electrical Code (NEC).

Class 1 and 2 Power Supplies determines the insulation PROPERTIES of a power
supply and there is no Class 3. To the layman, they either need the third
ground wire or not (1 & 2 respectively).

The 8 Amp limitation IN NEC has nothing to do with UL/CSA et al
classifications. A transformer can output any current it can be designed for
as long as it meets the insulation and overvoltage/current test
specifications and meet the safety requirements.
Class 1, 2, 3 as used in the NEC as you can see above is quite different.
While saftey is of course a concern, simply limiting an output to 8 amps
would not deem it to be "safe". The NEC is concerned with wiring, and the
Safety is concerned with safety. Two different worlds. A google for UL
1459 might be enlightening for you. You apparently already have some
NEC information, or I'd assume so at least. You know NEC and I know Safety;
perhaps between the two of us, we could purchse/outfit/install equipment for
a homeG.

HTH,

Twayne`

Because the power is limited, the downstream circuit does
not have to meet the general wiring requirements of the
NEC. Article 725 is used instead.

Secondary ckts attached to the output
of a xfmr are not subject to UL/CSA et al safety testing
unless a voltage in it equals or is more than 42VDC or 42V
ac p-p. The original spec, UL1459 (now superceded but not
changed in this area) is online for those who wish to read
it. I -think- the CSA spec was CS-03. Whatever class 1
& 2 means ckt-wise, I don't know; it's not a UL/CSA et al type spec but
might be NEC, NFPA or otherwise.

HTH,

Twayne`

In ,
bud-- typed:
Twayne wrote:

A "Class 2" xfmr is simply a double-insulated transformer
without an earth ground on its plug, nor a polarized plug.
A "Class 1" xfmr requires a third wire, the earth ground
pin on its plug. The "Class of xfmr is a UL/CSA et al
classification which approves the xfmr and nothing else as
safety approved.

The primary characteristic of class 1, 2, and 3 power
sources is that they are power limited. There is a
specified maximum voltage, current and power you can get
from the source. For a class 2 24V transformer the max
current is 8A - the maximum current you get if you short
circuit the transformer.

No. You're mixing up NEC/Safety agencies. UL and CSA and all like agencies
only have classes 1 and 2, no class 3, and they deal with the safety aspects
of a power transformer and its container, and must be so tested/listed in
order to be sold legally anywhere in the US or Canada. You are trying to
apply NEC wiring classses to the safety classes, incorrectly. The
definitions are exactly as I stated.

NEC Class 1, 2, and 3 circuits are classified as remote-control, signaling,
and power-limited circuits in the National Electrical Code (NEC).
Transformers are NOT required to meet ANY of those requirements. The 8A is a
wiring issue and part of the NEC, NOT part of safety. Look up UL 1459 and
you'll see what I mean. A transformer/power supply does not HAVE to be power
limited and in fact most are not, and if it's NOT power limited, that
section does not apply. Most transformers are NOT power limited but per
Safety agencies can never, under ANY load including locked rotors,
solenoids, short ckts, etc., can never present a fire or safety hazard to
anyone or anything.
A class 1 OR class 2 24V transformer sold in North America is required to
have UL or CSA or equivalent markings and submissions or be listed as a
component. INSTALLATION of same is where NEC comes in, and may or may not
apply; usually not. If it does not claim to be a class 3 installation
device, then it's a moot point; other parts of the NEC will apply.
HTH,

Twayne`

Because the power is limited, the downstream circuit does
not have to meet the general wiring requirements of the
NEC. Article 725 is used instead.

Secondary ckts attached to the output
of a xfmr are not subject to UL/CSA et al safety testing
unless a voltage in it equals or is more than 42VDC or 42V
ac p-p. The original spec, UL1459 (now superceded but not
changed in this area) is online for those who wish to read
it. I -think- the CSA spec was CS-03. Whatever class 1
& 2 means ckt-wise, I don't know; it's not a UL/CSA et al type spec but
might be NEC, NFPA or otherwise.

HTH,

Twayne`