I'm fixing some broken window panes in my basement windows. The windows are
rectangular wood frames with three 8x10 glass panes:

http://zootal.no-ip.info/stuff/2009/...s/DSCF0016.JPG

They fit into wood frames built into my basement walls. This is the frame
with the window removed - I put a piece of plexiglass over it to block the
hole:

http://zootal.no-ip.info/stuff/2009/...s/DSCF0020.JPG

This is what an installed window looks like. The outer frame is 2x4 framing
fastened to the basement walls. The wood/glass window fits into this, and
you can see the 1/2 inch trim that holds the window in place.

http://zootal.no-ip.info/stuff/2009/...s/DSCF0021.JPG

So, I'm replacing broken and missing panes, and repairing and painting the
frames. My questions have to do with sealing the whole mess. Currently, the
windows are fitted to the frame without any sealant, and when it rains water
leaks past them. My idea is to fit the window into the frame and secure it,
and then go outside and run a bead of sealant around the frame where the
window meets the frame. My other option was to use rubber weather stripping
around the window when I put it into the frame.

Does this make sense, and does anyone have any practical experience mounting
and sealing windows like these?

Zootal wrote:
I'm fixing some broken window panes in my basement windows. The windows are
rectangular wood frames with three 8x10 glass panes:

http://zootal.no-ip.info/stuff/2009/...s/DSCF0016.JPG

They fit into wood frames built into my basement walls. This is the frame
with the window removed - I put a piece of plexiglass over it to block the
hole:

http://zootal.no-ip.info/stuff/2009/...s/DSCF0020.JPG

This is what an installed window looks like. The outer frame is 2x4 framing
fastened to the basement walls. The wood/glass window fits into this, and
you can see the 1/2 inch trim that holds the window in place.

http://zootal.no-ip.info/stuff/2009/...s/DSCF0021.JPG

So, I'm replacing broken and missing panes, and repairing and painting the
frames. My questions have to do with sealing the whole mess. Currently, the
windows are fitted to the frame without any sealant, and when it rains water
leaks past them. My idea is to fit the window into the frame and secure it,
and then go outside and run a bead of sealant around the frame where the
window meets the frame. My other option was to use rubber weather stripping
around the window when I put it into the frame.

Does this make sense, and does anyone have any practical experience mounting
and sealing windows like these?



Years ago, replacing glass with Lucite in metal frames, I sealed with
caulk. Basement windows are at ground level and don't leak.

"Frank" wrote in message
...
Zootal wrote:
I'm fixing some broken window panes in my basement windows. The windows
are rectangular wood frames with three 8x10 glass panes:

http://zootal.no-ip.info/stuff/2009/...s/DSCF0016.JPG

They fit into wood frames built into my basement walls. This is the frame
with the window removed - I put a piece of plexiglass over it to block
the hole:

http://zootal.no-ip.info/stuff/2009/...s/DSCF0020.JPG

This is what an installed window looks like. The outer frame is 2x4
framing fastened to the basement walls. The wood/glass window fits into
this, and you can see the 1/2 inch trim that holds the window in place.

http://zootal.no-ip.info/stuff/2009/...s/DSCF0021.JPG

So, I'm replacing broken and missing panes, and repairing and painting
the frames. My questions have to do with sealing the whole mess.
Currently, the windows are fitted to the frame without any sealant, and
when it rains water leaks past them. My idea is to fit the window into
the frame and secure it, and then go outside and run a bead of sealant
around the frame where the window meets the frame. My other option was to
use rubber weather stripping around the window when I put it into the
frame.

Does this make sense, and does anyone have any practical experience
mounting and sealing windows like these?

Years ago, replacing glass with Lucite in metal frames, I sealed with
caulk. Basement windows are at ground level and don't leak.

These leak when it rains - they may be at ground level, but they are still
exposed to the elements. When the rain hits the ones on the south side of
the house (that is the direction rain usually comes from), they leak. I'm
trying to stick with the original 1948 design - glass panes in wood frames.
Glass held in with 3/8 quarter round wood trim instead of caulk. Sealant
between glass and frame itself so that it doesn't leak. My goal is to retain
the original design, with sealant discretely applied to prevent rainwater
from leaking in.

"Frank" wrote in message
...
Zootal wrote:
I'm fixing some broken window panes in my basement windows. The windows
are rectangular wood frames with three 8x10 glass panes:

http://zootal.no-ip.info/stuff/2009/...s/DSCF0016.JPG

They fit into wood frames built into my basement walls. This is the frame
with the window removed - I put a piece of plexiglass over it to block
the hole:

http://zootal.no-ip.info/stuff/2009/...s/DSCF0020.JPG

This is what an installed window looks like. The outer frame is 2x4
framing fastened to the basement walls. The wood/glass window fits into
this, and you can see the 1/2 inch trim that holds the window in place.

http://zootal.no-ip.info/stuff/2009/...s/DSCF0021.JPG

So, I'm replacing broken and missing panes, and repairing and painting
the frames. My questions have to do with sealing the whole mess.
Currently, the windows are fitted to the frame without any sealant, and
when it rains water leaks past them. My idea is to fit the window into
the frame and secure it, and then go outside and run a bead of sealant
around the frame where the window meets the frame. My other option was to
use rubber weather stripping around the window when I put it into the
frame.

Does this make sense, and does anyone have any practical experience
mounting and sealing windows like these?

Years ago, replacing glass with Lucite in metal frames, I sealed with
caulk. Basement windows are at ground level and don't leak.

PS. I thought of just replacing them as they are quite old, but I can fix
all of them for about $100 total including glass, paint, sealant, etc.,
versus that much or more per window to replace them.

Zootal wrote:
I'm fixing some broken window panes in my basement windows.
The windows are rectangular wood frames with three 8x10 glass panes:...
....
So, I'm replacing broken and missing panes, and repairing and painting the
frames. My questions have to do with sealing the whole mess. Currently, the
windows are fitted to the frame without any sealant, and when it rains water
leaks past them. My idea is to fit the window into the frame and secure it,
and then go outside and run a bead of sealant around the frame where the
window meets the frame. My other option was to use rubber weather stripping
around the window when I put it into the frame.

Does this make sense, and does anyone have any practical experience mounting
and sealing windows like these?

The picture from the inside looks as though the water has been coming
from under the lower frame/sill between it and the wall opening, not
around the window itself (there's no staining of the paint
characteristic of water except below the window, not on the frame itself).

If so, it would seem need the caulking/sealing at that junction not the
window panes, etc., ... depending on the outer wall profile perhaps
could add some slope there by a fill-in mortar layer up to half- to
three-quarters the depth of the tuba frame that would shed water much
better than a flat opening. If they're set flush w/ the outer wall
that's out, of course.

As for the windows themselves, if they were mine I'd go back to
traditional glazers' points and glazing instead of the idea of caulk and
the beading.

--

--

The windows, themselves, are nice and I can understand trying to
preserve them. It would help greatly to have photos of the outside of
the window to understand the problem completely...hope the frames aren't
level with soil, and that soil slopes away from foundation.

Taking the windows apart, stripping, priming and repainting is good
first step, but not entire solution. It helps, when repainting, to be
sure that the coat of paint bridges the gap between the frame and the
pane....keeps rain and condensation out of the wood so paint doesn't
peel. Assuming the exterior sill is sloped, a simple sheet of
plexiglass on the outside, screwed to the frame, might help the windows
weather and provide better insulation.

On Nov 23, 8:12*pm, "Zootal" wrote:
"Frank" wrote in message

...



Zootal wrote:
I'm fixing some broken window panes in my basement windows. The windows
are rectangular wood frames with three 8x10 glass panes:

http://zootal.no-ip.info/stuff/2009/...ows/images/DSC....

They fit into wood frames built into my basement walls. This is the frame
with the window removed - I put a piece of plexiglass over it to block
the hole:

http://zootal.no-ip.info/stuff/2009/...ows/images/DSC....

This is what an installed window looks like. The outer frame is 2x4
framing fastened to the basement walls. The wood/glass window fits into
this, and you can see the 1/2 inch trim that holds the window in place..

http://zootal.no-ip.info/stuff/2009/...ows/images/DSC....

So, I'm replacing broken and missing panes, and repairing and painting
the frames. My questions have to do with sealing the whole mess.
Currently, the windows are fitted to the frame without any sealant, and
when it rains water leaks past them. My idea is to fit the window into
the frame and secure it, and then go outside and run a bead of sealant
around the frame where the window meets the frame. My other option was to
use rubber weather stripping around the window when I put it into the
frame.

Does this make sense, and does anyone have any practical experience
mounting and sealing windows like these?

Years ago, replacing glass with Lucite in metal frames, I sealed with
caulk. *Basement windows are at ground level and don't leak.

PS. I thought of just replacing them as they are quite old, but I can fix
all of them for about $100 total including glass, paint, sealant, etc.,
versus that much or more per window to replace them.

From both an efficiency and security viewpoint, have you considered
vented glass block?

$75 for what appears to be your size, and that was just the first
place I looked.

DIY glass blocks kits might be cheaper.

Just a thought.

The picture from the inside looks as though the water has been coming
from under the lower frame/sill between it and the wall opening, not
around the window itself (there's no staining of the paint characteristic
of water except below the window, not on the frame itself).

I'm not sure what that is - it's old and been there forever. If it's from
water leaks, it happened a long time ago. I looked at it a few years ago
before I painted the walls, and it looked like it was part of the concrete.
It's not just stains, it's thick, like something thick ran down the wall and
solidified. Maybe I should take another look at it, but whatever it is it's
very old. The window in the picture has never leaked, at least not since
I've had the house, as it's sheltered from the rain. I also don't know when
the wood frames were put in there, I don't think they are the original
framing. The one in the pic was hacked into place - not the best of
workmanship.

As for the windows themselves, if they were mine I'd go back to
traditional glazers' points and glazing instead of the idea of caulk and
the beading.

So I've read up a bit on this process, and if I understand what I've read,
the idea is to set the pane down on a small bead of putty, and use glazers'
points to hold it in place, and put another bead of putty around it. Let it
dry, paint it, and you have a fixed windows. These panes appear to have used
wood trim to hold the glass in place on top of a bead of putty, yet the old
glazers' points were still there. Go figure. I'm not sure now what the
original construction was.

One of the panes had been siliconed into place. I spent quite a bit of time
thinking evil thoughts towards the person that did that, as it is very
tedious to clean it out and difficult not to damage the wood in the process.
The pane had to be removed in pieces, I could see no way to get it out
intact.

So what are the alternatives, and is there a general consensus about how to
set glass panes into a wood frame? I've seen what a mess silicone makes, and
there is no way I'll use silicone to set the glass into place.

On Nov 23, 10:40*pm, "Zootal" wrote:
The picture from the inside looks as though the water has been coming
from under the lower frame/sill between it and the wall opening, not
around the window itself (there's no staining of the paint characteristic
of water except below the window, not on the frame itself).

I'm not sure what that is - it's old and been there forever. If it's from
water leaks, it happened a long time ago. I looked at it a few years ago
before I painted the walls, and it looked like it was part of the concrete.
It's not just stains, it's thick, like something thick ran down the wall and
solidified. Maybe I should take another look at it, but whatever it is it's
very old. The window in the picture has never leaked, at least not since
I've had the house, as it's sheltered from the rain. I also don't know when
the wood frames were put in there, I don't think they are the original
framing. The one in the pic was hacked into place - not the best of
workmanship.

As for the windows themselves, if they were mine I'd go back to
traditional glazers' points and glazing instead of the idea of caulk and
the beading.

So I've read up a bit on this process, and if I understand what I've read,
the idea is to set the pane down on a small bead of putty, and use glazers'
points to hold it in place, and put another bead of putty around it. Let it
dry, paint it, and you have a fixed windows. These panes appear to have used
wood trim to hold the glass in place on top of a bead of putty, yet the old
glazers' points were still there. Go figure. I'm not sure now what the
original construction was.

One of the panes had been siliconed into place. I spent quite a bit of time
thinking evil thoughts towards the person that did that, as it is very
tedious to clean it out and difficult not to damage the wood in the process.
The pane had to be removed in pieces, I could see no way to get it out
intact.

So what are the alternatives, and is there a general consensus about how to
set glass panes into a wood frame? I've seen what a mess silicone makes, and
there is no way I'll use silicone to set the glass into place.

I like the idea of 1/4 round to hold the glass in place with caulking
to help waterproof and then lots of paint. The idea of a second layer
of plexiglass as a "storm" window to help protect the 3-pane window
seems great and will make a big difference in heat loss as well.

Zootal wrote:
I'm fixing some broken window panes in my basement windows. The
windows are rectangular wood frames with three 8x10 glass panes:

http://zootal.no-ip.info/stuff/2009/...s/DSCF0016.JPG

They fit into wood frames built into my basement walls. This is the
frame with the window removed - I put a piece of plexiglass over it
to block the hole:

http://zootal.no-ip.info/stuff/2009/...s/DSCF0020.JPG

This is what an installed window looks like. The outer frame is 2x4
framing fastened to the basement walls. The wood/glass window fits
into this, and you can see the 1/2 inch trim that holds the window in
place.
http://zootal.no-ip.info/stuff/2009/...s/DSCF0021.JPG

So, I'm replacing broken and missing panes, and repairing and
painting the frames. My questions have to do with sealing the whole
mess. Currently, the windows are fitted to the frame without any
sealant, and when it rains water leaks past them. My idea is to fit
the window into the frame and secure it, and then go outside and run
a bead of sealant around the frame where the window meets the frame.
My other option was to use rubber weather stripping around the window
when I put it into the frame.
Does this make sense, and does anyone have any practical experience
mounting and sealing windows like these?

I doubt the weather stripping would help much. Caulk might help some,
depends on where the water is entering (not where it comes out).

Water goes downhill so there are three areas where water could enter...

1. Between the glass and the rabbet in the window frame. This would only be
true if the rabbet were on the inside of the window frame. If on the
outside - as it should be - water could not go past the rabbet because the
upper edge is higher than the bottom of the glass.

2. From the joints - particularly the lower two - between the horizontal
and vertical members of the frame holding the glass.

3. From the joints - particularly the lower two - between the horizontal
and vertical members of the frame holding the window itself.

Hard to tell from the photos but I suspect the biggest culprit to be #3.
The bottom 2x4 in your #2 photo ahould have a rabbet in it so that the
window sits down into the rabbet. That bottom should be sloped toward the
outside. The end 2x4s should have their bottom ends fitted to the rabbet;
those bottom edges need to be caulked or epoxied so that water can't pass
around them. All four 2x4s need to be caulked where they meet the masonry
wall. It wouldn't hurt to have a aheet metal drip edge overhanging the top
one on the outside.

The wooden members of the frame holding the glass should be as above.

Do the above and it doesn't much matter how you hold in the glass, nothing
will leak.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

Since it's exposed to water, I'd seal the cracks with
bathtub caulk. Not like you have to hinge the windows open.

My parents house has windows some what similar, which do
hinge open. That's useful in the summer when the humidity is
high.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Zootal" wrote in message
news I'm fixing some broken window panes in my basement windows.
The windows are
rectangular wood frames with three 8x10 glass panes:

http://zootal.no-ip.info/stuff/2009/...s/DSCF0016.JPG

They fit into wood frames built into my basement walls. This
is the frame
with the window removed - I put a piece of plexiglass over
it to block the
hole:

http://zootal.no-ip.info/stuff/2009/...s/DSCF0020.JPG

This is what an installed window looks like. The outer frame
is 2x4 framing
fastened to the basement walls. The wood/glass window fits
into this, and
you can see the 1/2 inch trim that holds the window in
place.

http://zootal.no-ip.info/stuff/2009/...s/DSCF0021.JPG

So, I'm replacing broken and missing panes, and repairing
and painting the
frames. My questions have to do with sealing the whole mess.
Currently, the
windows are fitted to the frame without any sealant, and
when it rains water
leaks past them. My idea is to fit the window into the frame
and secure it,
and then go outside and run a bead of sealant around the
frame where the
window meets the frame. My other option was to use rubber
weather stripping
around the window when I put it into the frame.

Does this make sense, and does anyone have any practical
experience mounting
and sealing windows like these?

"hr(bob) " wrote in message
...
On Nov 23, 10:40 pm, "Zootal" wrote:
The picture from the inside looks as though the water has been coming
from under the lower frame/sill between it and the wall opening, not
around the window itself (there's no staining of the paint
characteristic
of water except below the window, not on the frame itself).

I'm not sure what that is - it's old and been there forever. If it's from
water leaks, it happened a long time ago. I looked at it a few years ago
before I painted the walls, and it looked like it was part of the
concrete.
It's not just stains, it's thick, like something thick ran down the wall
and
solidified. Maybe I should take another look at it, but whatever it is
it's
very old. The window in the picture has never leaked, at least not since
I've had the house, as it's sheltered from the rain. I also don't know
when
the wood frames were put in there, I don't think they are the original
framing. The one in the pic was hacked into place - not the best of
workmanship.

As for the windows themselves, if they were mine I'd go back to
traditional glazers' points and glazing instead of the idea of caulk and
the beading.

So I've read up a bit on this process, and if I understand what I've read,
the idea is to set the pane down on a small bead of putty, and use
glazers'
points to hold it in place, and put another bead of putty around it. Let
it
dry, paint it, and you have a fixed windows. These panes appear to have
used
wood trim to hold the glass in place on top of a bead of putty, yet the
old
glazers' points were still there. Go figure. I'm not sure now what the
original construction was.

One of the panes had been siliconed into place. I spent quite a bit of
time
thinking evil thoughts towards the person that did that, as it is very
tedious to clean it out and difficult not to damage the wood in the
process.
The pane had to be removed in pieces, I could see no way to get it out
intact.

So what are the alternatives, and is there a general consensus about how
to
set glass panes into a wood frame? I've seen what a mess silicone makes,
and
there is no way I'll use silicone to set the glass into place.

I like the idea of 1/4 round to hold the glass in place with caulking
to help waterproof and then lots of paint. The idea of a second layer
of plexiglass as a "storm" window to help protect the 3-pane window
seems great and will make a big difference in heat loss as well.

Tried that once and got into the problem of condensation forming between the
windows. Eventually had to get rid of the "storm window".
MLD

Zootal wrote:
....
As for the windows themselves, if they were mine I'd go back to
traditional glazers' points and glazing instead of the idea of caulk and
the beading.

So I've read up a bit on this process, and if I understand what I've read,
the idea is to set the pane down on a small bead of putty, and use glazers'
points to hold it in place, and put another bead of putty around it. Let it
dry, paint it, and you have a fixed windows. These panes appear to have used
wood trim to hold the glass in place on top of a bead of putty, yet the old
glazers' points were still there. Go figure. I'm not sure now what the
original construction was.

One of the panes had been siliconed into place. I spent quite a bit of time
thinking evil thoughts towards the person that did that, as it is very
tedious to clean it out and difficult not to damage the wood in the process.
The pane had to be removed in pieces, I could see no way to get it out
intact.

So what are the alternatives, and is there a general consensus about how to
set glass panes into a wood frame? I've seen what a mess silicone makes, and
there is no way I'll use silicone to set the glass into place.

That's basically it -- I use a mixture of BLO/phenothol to prime the
glazing area before setting the glass to help the linseed-based glazing
compound bond. You can get by w/ simply priming if choose but use a
latex primer thinly.

Dap (and others) makes an acrylic glazing that I don't recommend for
glazing but is suitable for the bedding in that it fills irregularities
easily and that's the key to the watertight seal you're looking for.

That's the disadvantage of the moulding to hold the glass in--sure, it
does the mechanical job but unless it's set in something like a silcone
caulk or similar there's no weather seal. And, if you do it that way,
you can get a seal but you've just created a nearly impossible repair
job if/when do need a repair.

Dap 33 is the common standard readily available; I like the Sarco
available thru Abatron...

http://www.abatron.com/cms/buildingandrestorationproducts/woodrestorationaccessories/glazingcompound.html

Glazing and getting a good finish is an art--be prepared to practice a
time or two to get the hang of it. Key is a good knife and keeping it
and hands clean and making the stroke firm and continuous once getting
started.

--

I gutted mine, removed the wood frames and installed vinyl replacement
thermopane energy star basement windows. No more screwing around with
paint, putty and rot.

I'm trying to keep the house true to the original design, even if it means
paint, putty and rot

I thought of replacing them, but I can fix all of them for less then the
cost of replacing just one

On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 18:08:49 -0500, Van Chocstraw
wrote:

Zootal wrote:
I'm fixing some broken window panes in my basement windows. The windows are
rectangular wood frames with three 8x10 glass panes:

http://zootal.no-ip.info/stuff/2009/...s/DSCF0016.JPG

They fit into wood frames built into my basement walls. This is the frame
with the window removed - I put a piece of plexiglass over it to block the
hole:

http://zootal.no-ip.info/stuff/2009/...s/DSCF0020.JPG

This is what an installed window looks like. The outer frame is 2x4 framing
fastened to the basement walls. The wood/glass window fits into this, and
you can see the 1/2 inch trim that holds the window in place.

http://zootal.no-ip.info/stuff/2009/...s/DSCF0021.JPG

So, I'm replacing broken and missing panes, and repairing and painting the
frames. My questions have to do with sealing the whole mess. Currently, the
windows are fitted to the frame without any sealant, and when it rains water
leaks past them. My idea is to fit the window into the frame and secure it,
and then go outside and run a bead of sealant around the frame where the
window meets the frame. My other option was to use rubber weather stripping
around the window when I put it into the frame.

Does this make sense, and does anyone have any practical experience mounting
and sealing windows like these?



I gutted mine, removed the wood frames and installed vinyl replacement
thermopane energy star basement windows. No more screwing around with
paint, putty and rot.

Not too even mention killing any basement drafts of cold air :-/

Oh, ya done good.

Zootal wrote:
....

I thought of replacing them, but I can fix all of them for less then the
cost of replacing just one

Indeed, and if they're kept painted, etc., they'll last a long time.

On the energy thing, I intended to add in my earlier treatise the
comment somebody did make about the idea of a solid plexiglass cover
would likely be a problem from both condensation but a conventional
storm over it would help.

It's not at all difficult to build them assuming the frames are deep
enough to hold them and they would serve double-duty of the extra energy
savings as well as a first barrier for the rain.

--

"dpb" wrote in message
...
Zootal wrote:
...
As for the windows themselves, if they were mine I'd go back to
traditional glazers' points and glazing instead of the idea of caulk and
the beading.

So I've read up a bit on this process, and if I understand what I've
read, the idea is to set the pane down on a small bead of putty, and use
glazers' points to hold it in place, and put another bead of putty around
it. Let it dry, paint it, and you have a fixed windows. These panes
appear to have used wood trim to hold the glass in place on top of a bead
of putty, yet the old glazers' points were still there. Go figure. I'm
not sure now what the original construction was.

One of the panes had been siliconed into place. I spent quite a bit of
time thinking evil thoughts towards the person that did that, as it is
very tedious to clean it out and difficult not to damage the wood in the
process. The pane had to be removed in pieces, I could see no way to get
it out intact.

So what are the alternatives, and is there a general consensus about how
to set glass panes into a wood frame? I've seen what a mess silicone
makes, and there is no way I'll use silicone to set the glass into place.

That's basically it -- I use a mixture of BLO/phenothol to prime the
glazing area before setting the glass to help the linseed-based glazing
compound bond. You can get by w/ simply priming if choose but use a latex
primer thinly.

Dap (and others) makes an acrylic glazing that I don't recommend for
glazing but is suitable for the bedding in that it fills irregularities
easily and that's the key to the watertight seal you're looking for.

That's the disadvantage of the moulding to hold the glass in--sure, it
does the mechanical job but unless it's set in something like a silcone
caulk or similar there's no weather seal. And, if you do it that way, you
can get a seal but you've just created a nearly impossible repair job
if/when do need a repair.

Dap 33 is the common standard readily available; I like the Sarco
available thru Abatron...

http://www.abatron.com/cms/buildingandrestorationproducts/woodrestorationaccessories/glazingcompound.html

Glazing and getting a good finish is an art--be prepared to practice a
time or two to get the hang of it. Key is a good knife and keeping it and
hands clean and making the stroke firm and continuous once getting
started.

I don't necessarily have to replace the wood trim - these are basement
windows that sit partially below ground level in small dugouts and they
aren't highly visible. If it's easier to just fill the groove
(rabbet?)(rabbit?) with putty, I can do that also.

I have some "glazing compound" that is "a siliconized acrylic formula". I
also have some latex caulk, and some "siliconized latex caulk". That and
silicone sealant seems to be all that is locally available. Silicon sealant
is out - omg what a mess it made trying to clean that up after I removed the
pane - in pieces. Gluing the pane to the frame just doesn't seem like a
great idea. This stuff stuck to everything and was difficult to remove
without damaging the wood. I may end up replacing a few of the cross pieces
if I could figure out how to make them - I have a router and a couple dozen
bits, but I'm not a carpenter, nor am I expert at using a router

If I had the expertise, I'd just rebuild the frame...alas, I'm a computer
programmer, not a wood maker



--

"dpb" wrote in message
...
Zootal wrote:
...

I thought of replacing them, but I can fix all of them for less then the
cost of replacing just one

Indeed, and if they're kept painted, etc., they'll last a long time.

On the energy thing, I intended to add in my earlier treatise the comment
somebody did make about the idea of a solid plexiglass cover would likely
be a problem from both condensation but a conventional storm over it would
help.

It's not at all difficult to build them assuming the frames are deep
enough to hold them and they would serve double-duty of the extra energy
savings as well as a first barrier for the rain.

I might mention that these windows are for an unheated unfinished basement.
It's full size, has a ton of storage, half dozen work benches, pingpong
table, etc. but we don't go downthere much. I'm not sure how much heat loss
goes through them. I live in the mid-Willamette Valley, Oregon, and
sub-freezing weather is rare. We use wood heat for the top two floors, and I
think my stove is oversized for the house as it is - two or three loads of
wood and we are toasty as can be

But seriously, it would not be that hard to use double or even triple pane
glass - would it be worth the effort since the basement is not heated?

Zootal wrote:
....
I don't necessarily have to replace the wood trim - these are basement
windows that sit partially below ground level in small dugouts and they
aren't highly visible. If it's easier to just fill the groove
(rabbet?)(rabbit?) with putty, I can do that also.

Don't quite follow--you lay a thin bed and press the glass into it, then
insert the glazers' points. Then you lay a rope of glazing compound in
the rabbet on top of the glass and work it into place (at this point
looks don't matter a hoot). Then, take the putty knife and make a
stroke that both leaves the smooth angled surface and cuts the edge on
the glass at the same time. Done. Repeat.

I have some "glazing compound" that is "a siliconized acrylic formula". I
also have some latex caulk, and some "siliconized latex caulk". That and
silicone sealant seems to be all that is locally available.

You don't want any of the caulks at all for this job.

I'd have to know what the particular product is on the other to have an
opinion. I know of one particular product of that general description
that has generally good ratings but its application is totally different
in practice than for traditional glazing as it doesn't have the
consistency to use a putty knife successfully; they make a special
plastic forming tool to use with it. If it's that product, I don't
recommend it for the neophyte.

I can't believe the local hardware store or building supply won't have
DAP 33 on the shelf in the red can.

....
... I may end up replacing a few of the cross pieces
if I could figure out how to make them - I have a router and a couple dozen
bits, but I'm not a carpenter, nor am I expert at using a router

If I had the expertise, I'd just rebuild the frame...alas, I'm a computer
programmer, not a wood maker

To replace a muntin (that's what the little dividers are called) you
would need a window sash bit--CMT/Whiteside/Amana/others make sets. To
use one, you'll have to have a way to set up your router in a table w/ a
fence--you can't do it freehand.

Then, you'll have to diassemble the window to insert them, of
course...again, it's not rocket science but does take some practice if
not familiar w/ the "how to". I think it's the Whiteside web site that
has a description of how to use the router bit set.


--

Zootal wrote:
....
But seriously, it would not be that hard to use double or even triple pane
glass - would it be worth the effort since the basement is not heated?

Under those circumstances, perhaps not on the heat loss -- I was
thinking of the conventional storm since you have such an issue w/
driving rain, in particular w/ the energy gain a secondary benefit.

--

dpb wrote:
....
would need a window sash bit--CMT/Whiteside/Amana/others make sets. To
use one, you'll have to have a way to set up your router in a table w/ a
fence--you can't do it freehand.
....

http://www.carbideprocessors.com/store/whiteside-windowsash.html
http://www.cheyennesales.com/catalog/cmtwsashset.htm

The advantage of the CMT is that you can make the long tenon since it
has the stub bit that none of the others do that I'm aware of other than
the very high-end shaper cutters designed for stub spindles.

--

I've had great results with silicone caulk, for sealing
cracks around, or below windows. Have to treat it like toxic
waste until it's dry. And then remove it with a razor blade
as needed.

Carry a plastic bag. When the tube is empty, stuff the tube
into the plastic bag. May need to wear disposable gloves, if
you tend to get the stuff on your hands.

I havn't tried glazing (the term for packing putty to hold a
window into the frame) with silicone caulk, but it should
work. Remove by slicing with a razor blade to get the glass
out. Remember the glazier's points before glazing.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Zootal" wrote in message
...


I don't necessarily have to replace the wood trim - these
are basement
windows that sit partially below ground level in small
dugouts and they
aren't highly visible. If it's easier to just fill the
groove
(rabbet?)(rabbit?) with putty, I can do that also.

I have some "glazing compound" that is "a siliconized
acrylic formula". I
also have some latex caulk, and some "siliconized latex
caulk". That and
silicone sealant seems to be all that is locally available.
Silicon sealant
is out - omg what a mess it made trying to clean that up
after I removed the
pane - in pieces. Gluing the pane to the frame just doesn't
seem like a
great idea. This stuff stuck to everything and was difficult
to remove
without damaging the wood. I may end up replacing a few of
the cross pieces
if I could figure out how to make them - I have a router and
a couple dozen
bits, but I'm not a carpenter, nor am I expert at using a
router

If I had the expertise, I'd just rebuild the frame...alas,
I'm a computer
programmer, not a wood maker



--

For unheated cellar, probably not worth multi pane windows
for heat. I'd seriously consider plexiglass. With holes
drilled, and screwed to the outside. Partly draft, heat,
and partly keep water off the windows.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Zootal" wrote in message
...


But seriously, it would not be that hard to use double or
even triple pane
glass - would it be worth the effort since the basement is
not heated?

Stormin Mormon wrote:
I've had great results with silicone caulk, for sealing
cracks around, or below windows. Have to treat it like toxic
waste until it's dry. And then remove it with a razor blade
as needed.

Carry a plastic bag. When the tube is empty, stuff the tube
into the plastic bag. May need to wear disposable gloves, if
you tend to get the stuff on your hands.

I havn't tried glazing (the term for packing putty to hold a
window into the frame) with silicone caulk, but it should
work. Remove by slicing with a razor blade to get the glass
out. Remember the glazier's points before glazing.


Putting silicone caulk on a window for glazing is worse than letting it
leak ) Yuck! The window and the little quarter-rounds are pretty,
and if properly maintained will probably be fine. A little glazing
compound to seat the glass would help seal them up....with a decently
done job of priming and painting they will probably be weatherproof.
That is assuming the paint job is maintained.

Eww. Ugly

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
For unheated cellar, probably not worth multi pane windows
for heat. I'd seriously consider plexiglass. With holes
drilled, and screwed to the outside. Partly draft, heat,
and partly keep water off the windows.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.


"Zootal" wrote in message
...


But seriously, it would not be that hard to use double or
even triple pane
glass - would it be worth the effort since the basement is
not heated?

On Nov 23, 6:44*pm, "Zootal" wrote:

snip

Does this make sense, and does anyone have any practical experience mounting
and sealing windows like these?

It makes no sense at all to try to restore windows like these in a
house that isn't on the National Register of Historic Landmarks. Your
two logical choices a 1) Replace with a good quality vinyl basement
window with whatever features you deem important. 2) For windows that
will never need opening replace window with glass blocks. Trying to
restore what you have is an exercise in futility. Consider that many
building codes are now requiring 'egress windows' in basements that do
or could have any living facilities in them, so you could be ahead of
the game in that respect should you opt for it.
It is prudent to use your time, talent and money on things that have
some reasonable practical value; anything else is just
entertainment.

Joe

Joe wrote:
....
It makes no sense at all to try to restore windows like these in a
house that isn't on the National Register of Historic Landmarks. Your
two logical choices a 1) Replace with a good quality vinyl basement
window with whatever features you deem important. 2) For windows that
will never need opening replace window with glass blocks. Trying to
restore what you have is an exercise in futility. Consider that many
building codes are now requiring 'egress windows' in basements that do
or could have any living facilities in them, so you could be ahead of
the game in that respect should you opt for it.
It is prudent to use your time, talent and money on things that have
some reasonable practical value; anything else is just
entertainment.

That makes _no_ sense at all...either of those options is way more
expensive than repairing what he has and once done they'll last a long time.

The egress thing is strawman; OP has already indicated it is unheated
space therefore it isn't living space and it would take far more than
simply replacing the windows themselves for those to become adequate.

I'd say it's "prudent" to be prudent and not spend money needlessly...

--

"Joe" wrote in message
...
On Nov 23, 6:44 pm, "Zootal" wrote:

snip

Does this make sense, and does anyone have any practical experience
mounting
and sealing windows like these?

It makes no sense at all to try to restore windows like these in a
house that isn't on the National Register of Historic Landmarks. Your
two logical choices a 1) Replace with a good quality vinyl basement
window with whatever features you deem important. 2) For windows that
will never need opening replace window with glass blocks. Trying to
restore what you have is an exercise in futility. Consider that many
building codes are now requiring 'egress windows' in basements that do
or could have any living facilities in them, so you could be ahead of
the game in that respect should you opt for it.
It is prudent to use your time, talent and money on things that have
some reasonable practical value; anything else is just
entertainment.

Joe

I see nothing futile about it. I'm simply fixing a window. What you are
suggesting is the equivalent of replacing your car simply because it has a
flat tire.

Zootal wrote:
"Frank" wrote in message
...
Zootal wrote:
I'm fixing some broken window panes in my basement windows. The windows
are rectangular wood frames with three 8x10 glass panes:

http://zootal.no-ip.info/stuff/2009/...s/DSCF0016.JPG

They fit into wood frames built into my basement walls. This is the frame
with the window removed - I put a piece of plexiglass over it to block
the hole:

http://zootal.no-ip.info/stuff/2009/...s/DSCF0020.JPG

This is what an installed window looks like. The outer frame is 2x4
framing fastened to the basement walls. The wood/glass window fits into
this, and you can see the 1/2 inch trim that holds the window in place.

http://zootal.no-ip.info/stuff/2009/...s/DSCF0021.JPG

So, I'm replacing broken and missing panes, and repairing and painting
the frames. My questions have to do with sealing the whole mess.
Currently, the windows are fitted to the frame without any sealant, and
when it rains water leaks past them. My idea is to fit the window into
the frame and secure it, and then go outside and run a bead of sealant
around the frame where the window meets the frame. My other option was to
use rubber weather stripping around the window when I put it into the
frame.

Does this make sense, and does anyone have any practical experience
mounting and sealing windows like these?
Years ago, replacing glass with Lucite in metal frames, I sealed with
caulk. Basement windows are at ground level and don't leak.

These leak when it rains - they may be at ground level, but they are still
exposed to the elements. When the rain hits the ones on the south side of
the house (that is the direction rain usually comes from), they leak. I'm
trying to stick with the original 1948 design - glass panes in wood frames.
Glass held in with 3/8 quarter round wood trim instead of caulk. Sealant
between glass and frame itself so that it doesn't leak. My goal is to retain
the original design, with sealant discretely applied to prevent rainwater
from leaking in.


My window is on the side of the house, not visible from the street or
entrance so cosmetics make no difference. It must have been at least 10
years and I had replaced glass with Lucite acrylic sheet as someone had
broken the window with a ball.

Zootal wrote:
....
I see nothing futile about it. I'm simply fixing a window. ...

Agreed.

Did you check out the hardware/building supply places for DAP 33 glazing
compound yet?

--

"dpb" wrote in message
...
Zootal wrote:
...
I see nothing futile about it. I'm simply fixing a window. ...

Agreed.

Did you check out the hardware/building supply places for DAP 33 glazing
compound yet?


No, I put it on hold a few days. As I was cleaning the frame, I realized
that the bottom wood piece was rotted much worse then I originally thought
and needs to be replaced. I can make one of these, as they don't require a
router jig or table. I don't have a router bit that will do a rabbet deep
enough, so I'm off to HomeDepot tomorrow for wood and router bits. I might
do the sides also, since they are easy to do. Fortunately the cross pieces
are good, as I don't have the setup to make those.

And I'll definitely check for DAP 33 glazing compound. The glazing compound
I have is acrylic something or other.

Zootal wrote:
....
And I'll definitely check for DAP 33 glazing compound. The glazing compound
I have is acrylic something or other.

OK, sounds good...if you get a chance and are interested, post the
actual product brand/name and I'll see if I know anything specific about
it...

As I say, I've used quite a number but I'm sure there are some I've not
( ) as well...but a couple of the others I have used I either didn't
like at all for various problems/reasons and one that is in the end a
good product I don't think is a good choice for a neophyte because it is
difficult to use correctly primarily because it sets up so quickly one
can't work it like one can normal compound or even caulks.

--

"dpb" wrote in message
...
Zootal wrote:
...
And I'll definitely check for DAP 33 glazing compound. The glazing
compound I have is acrylic something or other.

OK, sounds good...if you get a chance and are interested, post the actual
product brand/name and I'll see if I know anything specific about it...


This is what I have on my shelf:

DAP "Alex plus", Acrylic latex caulk plus silicone, "35 yr. durability
guarantee". And it's almond colored, which doesn't match anything I have -
why did I get almond colored?

ACE White glazing compound. "Glazing Compound is a siliconized acrylic
formula that is used to replace old or brlken windowpanes..."

I also found a tube of what appears to be ordinary latex caulk.

On Nov 26, 12:45*am, "Zootal" wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message

...
On Nov 23, 6:44 pm, "Zootal" wrote:





snip
Does this make sense, and does anyone have any practical experience
mounting
and sealing windows like these?

It makes no sense at all to try to restore windows like these in a
house that isn't on the National Register of Historic Landmarks. Your
two logical choices a 1) Replace with a good quality vinyl basement
window with whatever features you deem important. 2) For windows that
will never need opening replace window with glass blocks. Trying to
restore what you have is an exercise in futility. Consider that many
building codes are now requiring 'egress windows' in basements that do
or could have any living facilities in them, so you could be ahead of
the game in that respect should you opt for it.
It is prudent to use your time, talent and money on things that have
some reasonable practical value; anything else is just
entertainment.

Joe

I see nothing futile about it. I'm simply fixing a window. What you are
suggesting is the equivalent of replacing your car simply because it has a
flat tire.

What I suggested was like replacing your car because the engine/
transmission failed. It will take a year or two but you will be
replacing the failed windows again, bet on it.

Joe

Joe wrote:
....
What I suggested was like replacing your car because the engine/
transmission failed. It will take a year or two but you will be
replacing the failed windows again, bet on it.

I haven't seen anything but the pictures and have a _lot_ of original
windows much older than these and would still disagree that it's
necessarily so that when repaired they'll not last quite a long time.

And, one can generally repair/replace a transmission/engine still for
quite significantly less expenditure than for a whole new automobile.

--

I see nothing futile about it. I'm simply fixing a window. What you are
suggesting is the equivalent of replacing your car simply because it has
a
flat tire.

What I suggested was like replacing your car because the engine/
transmission failed. It will take a year or two but you will be
replacing the failed windows again, bet on it.

Joe

When my engine or transmission fails, I fix it, I don't replace the car.
When a tire goes flat, I fix it, I don't replace the tire. When my windows
break, I fix them, I don't replace them with a new window unit.

I have a close relative, however, that is the opposite - he doesn't fix
anything, he just replaces it. Dirty laundry? Go to the store and buy new
underwear. Go figure :

"dpb" wrote in message
...
Joe wrote:
...
What I suggested was like replacing your car because the engine/
transmission failed. It will take a year or two but you will be
replacing the failed windows again, bet on it.

I haven't seen anything but the pictures and have a _lot_ of original
windows much older than these and would still disagree that it's
necessarily so that when repaired they'll not last quite a long time.

And, one can generally repair/replace a transmission/engine still for
quite significantly less expenditure than for a whole new automobile.


I have a 1994 Subaru with about 147,000 miles on it. The auto trannies are
known for lasting about 150,000 miles or so. When it goes, I will replace
it. The car was paid for a long time ago and runs just fine. And if the
engine goes, I'll fix it or replace it. In the end, I'll get another ten
years of life from this car for a fraction of the cost replacing the car. I
once made the mistake of trading in my old Datsun as part of the purchase of
a brand new Ford Tempo. The Ford went to the junk yard before the Datsun
did.

Zootal wrote:
....
I have a 1994 Subaru with about 147,000 miles on it. The auto trannies are
known for lasting about 150,000 miles or so. When it goes, I will replace
it. The car was paid for a long time ago and runs just fine. And if the
engine goes, I'll fix it or replace it. In the end, I'll get another ten
years of life from this car for a fraction of the cost replacing the car. I
once made the mistake of trading in my old Datsun as part of the purchase of
a brand new Ford Tempo. The Ford went to the junk yard before the Datsun
did.

Ayup...

Many use the excuse of "major" repair to justify the purchase of a new
vehicle (shoot, even I have been know to do so when I really wanted a
new one all along ) but it rarely actually works out on paper in hard
cash to be the less expensive choice.

--

Zootal wrote:
"dpb" wrote in message
...
Joe wrote:
...
What I suggested was like replacing your car because the engine/
transmission failed. It will take a year or two but you will be
replacing the failed windows again, bet on it.
I haven't seen anything but the pictures and have a _lot_ of original
windows much older than these and would still disagree that it's
necessarily so that when repaired they'll not last quite a long time.

And, one can generally repair/replace a transmission/engine still for
quite significantly less expenditure than for a whole new automobile.


I have a 1994 Subaru with about 147,000 miles on it. The auto trannies are
known for lasting about 150,000 miles or so. When it goes, I will replace
it. The car was paid for a long time ago and runs just fine. And if the
engine goes, I'll fix it or replace it. In the end, I'll get another ten
years of life from this car for a fraction of the cost replacing the car. I
once made the mistake of trading in my old Datsun as part of the purchase of
a brand new Ford Tempo. The Ford went to the junk yard before the Datsun
did.


I bought the only lemon ever made by Datsun....everything that could
fall off did by the time it was three years old...weather strip, chrome,
knobs. Rusted out by the time it was five years old. Sold it and it
was still running 10 years later )

Zootal wrote:
"dpb" wrote in message
...
Zootal wrote:
...
And I'll definitely check for DAP 33 glazing compound. The glazing
compound I have is acrylic something or other.
OK, sounds good...if you get a chance and are interested, post the actual
product brand/name and I'll see if I know anything specific about it...


This is what I have on my shelf:

DAP "Alex plus", Acrylic latex caulk plus silicone, "35 yr. durability
guarantee". And it's almond colored, which doesn't match anything I have -
why did I get almond colored?

ACE White glazing compound. "Glazing Compound is a siliconized acrylic
formula that is used to replace old or brlken windowpanes..."

I also found a tube of what appears to be ordinary latex caulk.

You don't want either of the caulks, obviously.

I looked at the Ace web site for that glazing compound and it was less
than helpful. I've not tried that particular one; it sounds similar to
the product I disrecommended for the neophyte as being hard to work
quickly as the surface skims over very quickly once it's in place and
makes it difficult to get a good clean edge when not practiced in using
the putty knife.

I couldn't find the instruction/usage data on the web site; I've got to
run to town tomorrow anyway, I'll see if it's on the shelf to take a
look at. If it expects the "triangular tip" to be all you're going to
need to get a clean finished edge, I have my doubts. The other problem
w/ the tube types I've used previously is they aren't stiff enough so
that they sag before they cure so the shape after they were knifed isn't
the same shortly after when set.

The traditional compound is still the standard in my book...

--