On Mon, 9 Nov 2009 14:52:32 -0800 (PST), coloradotrout
wrote:

Ok.. got some pics..

http://tinypic.com/3ia2f08y

Most of them are taken below the window which is nearly above the area
that is leaking into the bathroom below. Some, however, are taken in
other areas of the roof to give you a general idea of the roof and
roofing work that was done. I see flashing pretty much everywhere.
But I also see a lot of exposed nail heads on the ridges and along the
top where the shingles meet the dormers.

My apologies -- I sorely lack the proper vocabulary on this topic.

On the first row of images..
image 1 is the upper left-hand corner of that window -- above the trip
seems pretty well caulked, but what I show here is the gap between
face of the window and the trim
image 2 , 3, and 4 are just other areas of the roof to give an idea of
the condition -- they are in fact along the front of the house whereas
the trouble spot seems to be along the side of the house

On the 2nd row..
image 1 is that sunken nail head that is nearly directly above the
leak on the 1st level bathroom
image 2 , 3, and 4 are in the area where the cursor is for the last
image showing a couple shots of the surrounding area

Hope this helps.

I really cannot find something that stands out. All those exposed
nail heads really bug me. If that nail extends down into the roof --
which of course it must -- that has to be a leak potential.


You don't show a pic of above the window trim. Often that caulking is
overlooked. Water travels behind and down.

How about if you move the nail an inch or so?

Sometimes they look good in another position.

On Nov 9, 3:52 pm, coloradotrout wrote:
Ok.. got some pics..

http://tinypic.com/3ia2f08y

Most of them are taken below the window which is nearly above the area
that is leaking into the bathroom below. Some, however, are taken in
other areas of the roof to give you a general idea of the roof and
roofing work that was done. I see flashing pretty much everywhere.
But I also see a lot of exposed nail heads on the ridges and along the
top where the shingles meet the dormers.

My apologies -- I sorely lack the proper vocabulary on this topic.

On the first row of images..
image 1 is the upper left-hand corner of that window -- above the trip
seems pretty well caulked, but what I show here is the gap between
face of the window and the trim
image 2 , 3, and 4 are just other areas of the roof to give an idea of
the condition -- they are in fact along the front of the house whereas
the trouble spot seems to be along the side of the house

On the 2nd row..
image 1 is that sunken nail head that is nearly directly above the
leak on the 1st level bathroom
image 2 , 3, and 4 are in the area where the cursor is for the last
image showing a couple shots of the surrounding area

Hope this helps.

I really cannot find something that stands out. All those exposed
nail heads really bug me. If that nail extends down into the roof --
which of course it must -- that has to be a leak potential.

Like I said earlier, check that the flashing below the window laps out
onto the shingles. No shingles should be nailed onto the top of the
flashing. Tom

The caulk above the trim looks good. It appears well sealed all along
the top of the window (atop the trim).

Ok.. this might be the issue. There is flashing under the siding
that laps out onto the shingles. Then shingles lay overtop the
flashing (the flashing is barely visible -- but that is why I took
some of those extra pics to show that flashing does lie below). If
you look carefully at a couple of those pics, (the one with my finger
in the bottom left for example), it seems to me that the nail passes
through the shingle, through the flashing, and then on through
whatever lies below (another shingle, then the sheathing).

What is the proper way to flash and shingle this area?

On Nov 10, 11:33 am, coloradotrout wrote:
Ok.. this might be the issue. There is flashing under the siding
that laps out onto the shingles. Then shingles lay overtop the
flashing (the flashing is barely visible -- but that is why I took
some of those extra pics to show that flashing does lie below). If
you look carefully at a couple of those pics, (the one with my finger
in the bottom left for example), it seems to me that the nail passes
through the shingle, through the flashing, and then on through
whatever lies below (another shingle, then the sheathing).

What is the proper way to flash and shingle this area?

According to the instructions on every package of shingles. Tom

"coloradotrout" wrote in message
...
Ok.. got some pics..

http://tinypic.com/3ia2f08y

Most of them are taken below the window which is nearly above the area
that is leaking into the bathroom below. Some, however, are taken in
other areas of the roof to give you a general idea of the roof and
roofing work that was done. I see flashing pretty much everywhere.
But I also see a lot of exposed nail heads on the ridges and along the
top where the shingles meet the dormers.

My apologies -- I sorely lack the proper vocabulary on this topic.

On the first row of images..
image 1 is the upper left-hand corner of that window -- above the trip
seems pretty well caulked, but what I show here is the gap between
face of the window and the trim
image 2 , 3, and 4 are just other areas of the roof to give an idea of
the condition -- they are in fact along the front of the house whereas
the trouble spot seems to be along the side of the house

On the 2nd row..
image 1 is that sunken nail head that is nearly directly above the
leak on the 1st level bathroom
image 2 , 3, and 4 are in the area where the cursor is for the last
image showing a couple shots of the surrounding area

Hope this helps.

I really cannot find something that stands out. All those exposed
nail heads really bug me. If that nail extends down into the roof --
which of course it must -- that has to be a leak potential.

Actually, you pointed out a few things, which stand out.

I won't even go into how the roof was installed going up along the dormer.

1. You noticed the "gap" between the window & trim. I'm going to _assume_ a
lot, since we don't know _if_ flashing is where it should be, or not. Even
if it's where it should be, we do not know how any window flashing would
overlap the front (apron) flashing for the juncture of the wall/roof.
Especially since the window sill would not allow apron flashing to run up
the wall. I would caulk the gap along the window & window trim. Also, would
caulk along where window sill & trim meets, and where the window meets
sill. Use something decent like SW 50 yr acrylic/latex. Snip the tube for
a small hole, try to caulk in between, not just the surface. Tool the area
after caulking with a wet finger or sponge.

2. I've seen people put shingles over apron flashing, I never liked the
idea. Some condominium associations around here require it, for aesthetics.
It a water trap waiting to happen. We do _not_ know how large the flashing
is under those shingles. We do _not_ know if there is flashing under those
shingles. I noticed in this picture http://tinypic.com/3ia2f08y , the
apron flashing & shingle butt joint fall on the same seam. Although
flashing should be overlapped, this wouldn't be a huge problem. But, we do
_not_ know if it is overlapped, or if all flashing is this small. I always
did at least 4" bent similar to this. http://tinyurl.com/yl7h6hf .

3. The sidewall step flashing, looks like it does not run past the dormer.
Some people like it to stop at the dormer, like yours appears to. But, if
you run it a little longer, to give it a kick _past_ not really a kick
_out_, it will carry the elements away from the corner. This _could_ be a
problem in your case, but it may not be.

4. To do it right, I would remove those shingles, which are on top of the
suspect apron flashing. But, in any case, at the very least I would drive
any & all fastener heads in, and apply a quality sealant (not caulk). For
this area, neoprene appears to be the longest lasting, it may not be best
in extreme areas of heat. Don't forget to caulk all around the window. 8-)

Believe it or not, I would find this a fun challenge. I used to do all our
trouble shooting and flashing work. That's b/4 that age thing crept up on
me.

Please do an update, when & if you find the problem.

On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 16:21:06 -0500, "Kerry L." wrote:

1. You noticed the "gap" between the window & trim. I'm going to _assume_ a
lot, since we don't know _if_ flashing is where it should be, or not. Even
if it's where it should be, we do not know how any window flashing would
overlap the front (apron) flashing for the juncture of the wall/roof.
Especially since the window sill would not allow apron flashing to run up
the wall. I would caulk the gap along the window & window trim. Also, would
caulk along where window sill & trim meets, and where the window meets
sill. Use something decent like SW 50 yr acrylic/latex. Snip the tube for
a small hole, try to caulk in between, not just the surface. Tool the area
after caulking with a wet finger or sponge.

I agree, the window is suspect for leaks (who done it). Given the
window is above the leak/stain in the adjacent bath below.

One thing to check is that the bottom weep holes are not clogged. Even
worse! The windows was installed upside down.

So caulk here,

http://i36.tinypic.com/332cci1.jpg

That small gap between the trim board and the aluminum ( the first gap
you see going left to right) ?

What kind of caulk?

I want to use the absolute best product for this. Would clear
silicone be OK? GE Silicone II ?


Should I spead a 1" diameter patch over the nails, especially this
one..
http://i34.tinypic.com/9ktdoj.jpg

The roofing cement that I have is Black Jack 2172 Asphalt roof
patch.

If you look closely at this pic..
http://i38.tinypic.com/22xcte.jpg

It seems like the nail goes through the flashing. These are the nails
right below that window all along the top row of shingles.

On Nov 10, 4:21*pm, "Kerry L." wrote:
"coloradotrout" wrote in message

Ok.. got some pics..

http://tinypic.com/3ia2f08y

Most of them are taken below the window which is nearly above the area
that is leaking into the bathroom below. *Some, however, are taken in
other areas of the roof to give you a general idea of the roof and
roofing work that was done. *I see flashing pretty much everywhere.
But I also see a lot of exposed nail heads on the ridges and along the
top where the shingles meet the dormers.

My apologies -- I sorely lack the proper vocabulary on this topic.

On the first row of images..
image 1 is the upper left-hand corner of that window -- above the trip
seems pretty well caulked, but what I show here is the gap between
face of the window and the trim
image 2 , 3, and 4 are just other areas of the roof to give an idea of
the condition -- they are in fact along the front of the house whereas
the trouble spot seems to be along the side of the house

On the 2nd row..
image 1 is that sunken nail head that is nearly directly above the
leak on the 1st level bathroom
image 2 , 3, and 4 are in the area where the cursor is for the last
image showing a couple shots of the surrounding area

Hope this helps.

I really cannot find something that stands out. *All those exposed
nail heads really bug me. *If that nail extends down into the roof --
which of course it must -- that has to be a leak potential.

Actually, you pointed out a few things, which stand out.

I won't even go into how the roof was installed going up along the dormer..

1. You noticed the "gap" between the window & trim. I'm going to _assume_ a
lot, since we don't know _if_ flashing is where it should be, or not. Even
if it's where it should be, we do not know how any window flashing would
overlap the front (apron) flashing for the juncture of the wall/roof.
Especially since the window sill would not allow apron flashing to run up
the wall. I would caulk the gap along the window & window trim. Also, would
caulk along where window sill & trim meets, and where the window meets
sill. *Use something decent like SW 50 yr acrylic/latex. Snip the tube for
a small hole, try to caulk in between, not just the surface. Tool the area
after caulking with a wet finger or sponge.

2. I've seen people put shingles over apron flashing, I never liked the
idea. Some condominium associations around here require it, for aesthetics.
It a water trap waiting to happen. We do _not_ know how large the flashing
is under those shingles. We do _not_ know if there is flashing under those
shingles. I noticed in this picture *http://tinypic.com/3ia2f08y, the
apron flashing & shingle butt joint fall on the same seam. Although
flashing should be overlapped, this wouldn't be a huge problem. But, we do
_not_ know if it is overlapped, or if all flashing is this small. I always
did at least 4" bent similar to this.http://tinyurl.com/yl7h6hf.

3. The sidewall step flashing, looks like it does not run past the dormer..
Some people like it to stop at the dormer, like yours appears to. But, if
you run it a little longer, to give it a kick _past_ not really a kick
_out_, it will carry the elements away from the corner. This _could_ be a
problem in your case, but it may not be.

4. To do it right, I would remove those shingles, which are on top of the
suspect apron flashing. But, in any case, at the very least I would drive
any & all fastener heads in, and apply a quality sealant (not caulk). For
this area, neoprene appears to be the longest lasting, it may not be best
in extreme areas of heat. Don't forget to caulk all around the window. 8-)

Believe it or not, I would find this a fun challenge. I used to do all our
trouble shooting and flashing work. That's b/4 that age thing crept up on
me.

Please do an update, when & if you find the problem.

Excellent analysis, Kerry. The age thing may have crept up on you -
mine seems to be running! - but you've lost nothing. I'll
reinforce your words in my reply to the OP.

BTW, post more often. We need experience and sharp minds.

R

On Nov 11, 12:57*pm, coloradotrout wrote:
So caulk here,

http://i36.tinypic.com/332cci1.jpg

That small gap between the trim board and the aluminum ( the first gap
you see going left to right) ?

What kind of caulk?

Lexel makes an excellent caulk that is paintable, clear and durable.
http://www.sashcocontractor.com/Home...ent/Lexel.aspx

I want to use the absolute best product for this. * Would clear
silicone be OK? * GE Silicone II ?

No. Do not use silicone caulk on anything that will be painted.
Paint won't stick to it and you'll be very sorry when it comes time to
repaint.

Should I spead a 1" diameter patch over the nails, especially this
one..http://i34.tinypic.com/9ktdoj.jpg

The roofing cement that I have is Black Jack 2172 Asphalt roof
patch.

All roof cements are pretty much the same. Karnak is the more common
pro brand around here, but what you have is fine for a temporary
repair.

If you look closely at this pic..http://i38.tinypic.com/22xcte.jpg

It seems like the nail goes through the flashing. *These are the nails
right below that window all along the top row of shingles.

CT, this is what I was talking about when I was begging for the
additional pictures. You do not have a roof-snot curable problem. As
a bandaid, sure, put some on that nail head - all of the nail heads
while you're at it. Collect some of the colored roof granules from
the gutter or scrape some off of a spare shingle. After you dab a bit
of roof cement on the nail heads, sprinkle some of the colored
granules on and lightly press them into the cement. It'll help hide
things. In your case it's not so critical because you really should
be fixing what is ailing your roof, and that's what Kerry told you a
bit earlier.

Just as it's very difficult to waterproof a basement from the inside,
it's really tough to make a roof tight from the top layer. Water is a
sneaky ******* and it will find it's way around the little barriers
you throw in its way.

My suspicion that the roofer (hack) nailed through the flashing turned
out to be correct. Flashing should not be penetrated by nails if at
all possible, and it's always possible to find a way to prevent
penetrating it. What should have been done is the apron flashing (the
flashing that is below that window) should have been longer, exposed
and the front/lowest edge should have been turned under on a sheet
metal brake (called hemming - and it stiffens the edge of the flashing
and keeps it straight and neat, and prevents capillary action).

If the flashing is done correctly it will be very neat, and color
coordinated flashing should be used so it would be hardly noticeable
against the roofing. The window itself is a major concern as I would
bet dollars to donuts that the apron flashing did not wrap up and over
the bottom framing of that window opening. That is the only way to
prevent a leak with a window that is sitting on the roof.

You have a decision to make, and it is basically do you want to hire
someone to straighten out the flashing/roofing/window problems, which
could run into some serious change, or to stick bandaids on the
problem and live with a recurring leak situation in your house. Your
house is pretty new - the leaks won't diminish over time, and the
repeated repairs are just as likely to make things worse as better.

Here's a link to a copper site that has good info on flashing:
http://www.copper.org/applications/a...s/dormers.html
Aluminum is a little different, but not much. If a potential
contractor doesn't see the benefits of how that link shows flashing to
be installed, then he does not know what he is doing, so keep looking.

The concealed cleats are an excellent way to keep flashing in place
without penetrating the flashing with nails. The hems and other
interlocks conceal the fasteners and keep the flashing in place and
tight against the roof. What your house suffered was someone who cut
some corners and threw in some nails to keep the flashing flat. It's
like trying to lose weight by cutting off some toes.

Here's another link showing how flashing is supposed to be done -
watch the long link, you may have to cut and paste into your browser
address bar:
http://books.google.com/books?id=uiE...0apron&f=false

R

On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 11:03:08 -0800 (PST), RicodJour
wrote:

On Nov 11, 12:57Â*pm, coloradotrout wrote:
So caulk here,

http://i36.tinypic.com/332cci1.jpg

That small gap between the trim board and the aluminum ( the first gap
you see going left to right) ?

What kind of caulk?

Lexel makes an excellent caulk that is paintable, clear and durable.
http://www.sashcocontractor.com/Home...ent/Lexel.aspx

I want to use the absolute best product for this. Â* Would clear
silicone be OK? Â* GE Silicone II ?

No. Do not use silicone caulk on anything that will be painted.
Paint won't stick to it and you'll be very sorry when it comes time to
repaint.

Silicone II IS paintable.

Should I spead a 1" diameter patch over the nails, especially this
one..http://i34.tinypic.com/9ktdoj.jpg

The roofing cement that I have is Black Jack 2172 Asphalt roof
patch.

All roof cements are pretty much the same. Karnak is the more common
pro brand around here, but what you have is fine for a temporary
repair.

If you look closely at this pic..http://i38.tinypic.com/22xcte.jpg

It seems like the nail goes through the flashing. Â*These are the nails
right below that window all along the top row of shingles.

CT, this is what I was talking about when I was begging for the
additional pictures. You do not have a roof-snot curable problem. As
a bandaid, sure, put some on that nail head - all of the nail heads
while you're at it. Collect some of the colored roof granules from
the gutter or scrape some off of a spare shingle. After you dab a bit
of roof cement on the nail heads, sprinkle some of the colored
granules on and lightly press them into the cement. It'll help hide
things. In your case it's not so critical because you really should
be fixing what is ailing your roof, and that's what Kerry told you a
bit earlier.

Just as it's very difficult to waterproof a basement from the inside,
it's really tough to make a roof tight from the top layer. Water is a
sneaky ******* and it will find it's way around the little barriers
you throw in its way.

My suspicion that the roofer (hack) nailed through the flashing turned
out to be correct. Flashing should not be penetrated by nails if at
all possible, and it's always possible to find a way to prevent
penetrating it. What should have been done is the apron flashing (the
flashing that is below that window) should have been longer, exposed
and the front/lowest edge should have been turned under on a sheet
metal brake (called hemming - and it stiffens the edge of the flashing
and keeps it straight and neat, and prevents capillary action).

If the flashing is done correctly it will be very neat, and color
coordinated flashing should be used so it would be hardly noticeable
against the roofing. The window itself is a major concern as I would
bet dollars to donuts that the apron flashing did not wrap up and over
the bottom framing of that window opening. That is the only way to
prevent a leak with a window that is sitting on the roof.

You have a decision to make, and it is basically do you want to hire
someone to straighten out the flashing/roofing/window problems, which
could run into some serious change, or to stick bandaids on the
problem and live with a recurring leak situation in your house. Your
house is pretty new - the leaks won't diminish over time, and the
repeated repairs are just as likely to make things worse as better.

Here's a link to a copper site that has good info on flashing:
http://www.copper.org/applications/a...s/dormers.html
Aluminum is a little different, but not much. If a potential
contractor doesn't see the benefits of how that link shows flashing to
be installed, then he does not know what he is doing, so keep looking.

The concealed cleats are an excellent way to keep flashing in place
without penetrating the flashing with nails. The hems and other
interlocks conceal the fasteners and keep the flashing in place and
tight against the roof. What your house suffered was someone who cut
some corners and threw in some nails to keep the flashing flat. It's
like trying to lose weight by cutting off some toes.

Here's another link showing how flashing is supposed to be done -
watch the long link, you may have to cut and paste into your browser
address bar:
http://books.google.com/books?id=uiE...0apron&f=false

R

RicodJour wrote in
:

On Nov 11, 12:57*pm, coloradotrout wrote:
So caulk here,

http://i36.tinypic.com/332cci1.jpg

That small gap between the trim board and the aluminum ( the first
gap you see going left to right) ?

What kind of caulk?

Lexel makes an excellent caulk that is paintable, clear and durable.
http://www.sashcocontractor.com/Home...ent/Lexel.aspx

Never used Lexel. Any idea how it compares to the PL polyurethanes?


I want to use the absolute best product for this. * Would clear
silicone be OK? * GE Silicone II ?

No. Do not use silicone caulk on anything that will be painted.
Paint won't stick to it and you'll be very sorry when it comes time to
repaint.

Should I spead a 1" diameter patch over the nails, especially this
one..http://i34.tinypic.com/9ktdoj.jpg

The roofing cement that I have is Black Jack 2172 Asphalt roof
patch.

All roof cements are pretty much the same. Karnak is the more common
pro brand around here, but what you have is fine for a temporary
repair.

If you look closely at this pic..http://i38.tinypic.com/22xcte.jpg

It seems like the nail goes through the flashing. *These are the
nails right below that window all along the top row of shingles.

CT, this is what I was talking about when I was begging for the
additional pictures. You do not have a roof-snot curable problem. As
a bandaid, sure, put some on that nail head - all of the nail heads
while you're at it. Collect some of the colored roof granules from
the gutter or scrape some off of a spare shingle. After you dab a bit
of roof cement on the nail heads, sprinkle some of the colored
granules on and lightly press them into the cement. It'll help hide
things. In your case it's not so critical because you really should
be fixing what is ailing your roof, and that's what Kerry told you a
bit earlier.

Just as it's very difficult to waterproof a basement from the inside,
it's really tough to make a roof tight from the top layer. Water is a
sneaky ******* and it will find it's way around the little barriers
you throw in its way.

My suspicion that the roofer (hack) nailed through the flashing turned
out to be correct. Flashing should not be penetrated by nails if at
all possible, and it's always possible to find a way to prevent
penetrating it. What should have been done is the apron flashing (the
flashing that is below that window) should have been longer, exposed
and the front/lowest edge should have been turned under on a sheet
metal brake (called hemming - and it stiffens the edge of the flashing
and keeps it straight and neat, and prevents capillary action).

If the flashing is done correctly it will be very neat, and color
coordinated flashing should be used so it would be hardly noticeable
against the roofing. The window itself is a major concern as I would
bet dollars to donuts that the apron flashing did not wrap up and over
the bottom framing of that window opening. That is the only way to
prevent a leak with a window that is sitting on the roof.

You have a decision to make, and it is basically do you want to hire
someone to straighten out the flashing/roofing/window problems, which
could run into some serious change, or to stick bandaids on the
problem and live with a recurring leak situation in your house. Your
house is pretty new - the leaks won't diminish over time, and the
repeated repairs are just as likely to make things worse as better.

Here's a link to a copper site that has good info on flashing:
http://www.copper.org/applications/a...flashings_copi
ngs/dormers.html Aluminum is a little different, but not much. If a
potential contractor doesn't see the benefits of how that link shows
flashing to be installed, then he does not know what he is doing, so
keep looking.

The concealed cleats are an excellent way to keep flashing in place
without penetrating the flashing with nails. The hems and other
interlocks conceal the fasteners and keep the flashing in place and
tight against the roof. What your house suffered was someone who cut
some corners and threw in some nails to keep the flashing flat. It's
like trying to lose weight by cutting off some toes.

Here's another link showing how flashing is supposed to be done -
watch the long link, you may have to cut and paste into your browser
address bar:
http://books.google.com/books?id=uiE...=PA13&dq=windo
w+flashing+dormer+apron&source=bl&ots=ezKoFwgwHO&s ig=F0_MH8tsnPIWRvusU4
aKy4_kgBU&hl=en&ei=Qwf7SoWOMMqpnQfv3Pj8DA&sa=X&oi= book_result&ct=result
&resnum=4&ved=0CA4Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=window%20fla shing%20dormer%20apro
n&f=false

R

Ok.. so basically..

roof should have been shingled up to the dormer window,
then flashing applied atop the shingles and against the unsided wall
then the wall sided from the bottom upwards

In essence.. the "shingling" overlap approach would have been
continued up the roof and onto the walls.

That flashing should be visible -- as it should be sitting on top of
the to shingles. As it is, it's tucked under the shingles, and the
shingles are nailed into it. Now... just maybe.. had those top row
of nails not been there (and the rest of the way up the wall is done
correctly) it might have been ok. But those top shingles had to be
secured somehow -- so they were nailed.

Also, anywere a nail head is seen -- is probably bad ??? By
comparison -- albeit most pathetic -- I shingled for the 1st time --
my chicken coop -- simple gable roof. I put drip edge on, then
shingled from top to bottom, then put the ridge shingles on. The ONLY
Place a nail head is seen is the last piece of ridge -- 2 nails , one
on either side (and I suppose I should dab on some roofing cement).

I have nail heads exposed all over the place on my house roof.

The leak is not bad -- we get some pretty heavy rains here. I suppose
I need to see if I can reach the spot in the attic, but I'm doubtful I
can. The floor to that window bottom is only about 2 feet. Maybe I
can see with a flashlight the area though.

Maybe a tornado will wipe us out this next spring and we can start
over ;-)

"RicodJour" wrote in message
...


Excellent analysis, Kerry. The age thing may have crept up on you -
mine seems to be running! - but you've lost nothing. I'll
reinforce your words in my reply to the OP.

BTW, post more often. We need experience and sharp minds.

R

Thanks for the kind words, something you don't see on Usenet often!

"coloradotrout" wrote in message
...
So caulk here,

http://i36.tinypic.com/332cci1.jpg

That small gap between the trim board and the aluminum ( the first gap
you see going left to right) ?

What kind of caulk?

I want to use the absolute best product for this. Would clear
silicone be OK? GE Silicone II ?


Should I spead a 1" diameter patch over the nails, especially this
one..
http://i34.tinypic.com/9ktdoj.jpg

The roofing cement that I have is Black Jack 2172 Asphalt roof
patch.

If you look closely at this pic..
http://i38.tinypic.com/22xcte.jpg

It seems like the nail goes through the flashing. These are the nails
right below that window all along the top row of shingles.

Follow Rico's advice.

I would not use Silicone either, even if it says paintable. I have seen
Silicone used on nail heads, chimneys, & wood trim. Silicone appears to
have a problem with heat or UV rays or the combination of the two. Once it
starts to fail, you might as well grab an end, and just tug. It comes off
rather easily.

You do not need to make a patch any larger than the area you absolutely
need to cover.

I'm not a fan of Black Jack, but if that is what you have, might as well
use it. It's not like you're going to ruin the job. The roofer already took
care of that. Black Jack dries out too quick, the oil properties are not
long lasting. Just my opinion of course.

Looking at this picture http://i38.tinypic.com/22xcte.jpg , it appears
there is flashing under the shingles. Unless my eyes are deceiving me, I
see what looks like 4" galvanized between the butt joints of those
shingles. That row of shingles should've been worked under the flashing.

Sometimes you will have exposed nails, like the last 2 nails for ridge cap.
Or, _sometimes_ to hold existing flashing down. But, never leave any nails
exposed where the elements can penetrate. I see you have exposed fastener
heads on the step flashing, near the corner of the dormer. Goodness, those
nails shouldn't even be there. Make sure you dab every visible nail head,
kinda smear it around. Don't forget to drive the nails b/4 dabbing. You
could pull them, but might open up another can of worms.

On Nov 11, 3:42*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 , RicodJour wrote:
On Nov 11, 12:57*pm, coloradotrout wrote:

So caulk here,

http://i36.tinypic.com/332cci1.jpg

That small gap between the trim board and the aluminum ( the first gap
you see going left to right) ?

What kind of caulk?

Lexel makes an excellent caulk that is paintable, clear and durable.
http://www.sashcocontractor.com/Home...ent/Lexel.aspx

I want to use the absolute best product for this. * Would clear
silicone be OK? * GE Silicone II ?

No. *Do not use silicone caulk on anything that will be painted.
Paint won't stick to it and you'll be very sorry when it comes time to
repaint.

Silicone II IS paintable.

Sheesh. Will you stop getting in the way of good advice just to give
partial/bad advice? Please! It's getting old, you're not helping the
OP, and you just look foolish.

GE makes six or seven Silicone II caulks for different applications,
and only one of them is paintable. Oddly enough they list their
paintable silicone caulk as GE Silicone II* Paintable Silicone.

The OP didn't specify a particular caulk as he's not up on these
things. He asked about a family of caulks - probably without
realizing it. The safe answer, as opposed to the "sure, just put some
roof snot on it" type of answer, is to say no, don't use silicone.
Besides, silicone is a poor choice for many caulking jobs. It's great
in bathrooms, but it's way down on the list for most exterior jobs as
there are superior alternatives. Any of the polyurethane caulks by
Sika or 3M, for instance, or the Lexel I mentioned earlier.

I find it very odd that earlier in the thread you recommended a
particular brand of roof cement, where there is no appreciable
difference between brands and little between products, but see no
difference in caulk formulations where there is a tremendous
difference.

R

R,

So what exterior caulks are recommended for a particular job?

We can start with caulking around door and window trip to the siding.
That would seem the most important. Then what's next? I need to do
a good inspection of this house.

On Nov 11, 4:45*pm, "Kerry L." wrote:
"coloradotrout" wrote in message

...





So caulk here,

http://i36.tinypic.com/332cci1.jpg

That small gap between the trim board and the aluminum ( the first gap
you see going left to right) ?

What kind of caulk?

I want to use the absolute best product for this. * Would clear
silicone be OK? * GE Silicone II ?

Should I spead a 1" diameter patch over the nails, especially this
one..
http://i34.tinypic.com/9ktdoj.jpg

The roofing cement that I have is Black Jack 2172 Asphalt roof
patch.

If you look closely at this pic..
http://i38.tinypic.com/22xcte.jpg

It seems like the nail goes through the flashing. *These are the nails
right below that window all along the top row of shingles.

Follow Rico's advice.

*I would not use Silicone either, even if it says paintable. I have seen
Silicone used on nail heads, chimneys, & wood trim. Silicone appears to
have a problem with heat or UV rays or the combination of the two. Once it
starts to fail, you might as well grab an end, and just tug. It comes off
rather easily.

You do not need to make a patch any larger than the area you absolutely
need to cover.

I'm not a fan of Black Jack, but if that is what you have, might as well
use it. It's not like you're going to ruin the job. The roofer already took
care of that. Black Jack dries out too quick, the oil properties are not
long lasting. Just my opinion of course.

Looking at this picturehttp://i38.tinypic.com/22xcte.jpg, it appears
there is flashing under the shingles. Unless my eyes are deceiving me, I
see what looks like 4" galvanized between the butt joints of those
shingles. That row of shingles should've been worked under the flashing.

Sometimes you will have exposed nails, like the last 2 nails for ridge cap.
Or, _sometimes_ to hold existing flashing down. But, never leave any nails
exposed where the elements can penetrate. *I see you have exposed fastener
heads on the step flashing, near the corner of the dormer. Goodness, those
nails shouldn't even be there. Make sure you dab every visible nail head,
kinda smear it around. Don't forget to drive the nails b/4 dabbing. You
could pull them, but might open up another can of worms.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Give me a couple of roofing cement recommendations please. Even if I
have to, I'll shop another place besides Lowes and HD. Lowes had the
BlackJack. HD stocks Henry I think. On that photo you reference --
exactly -- I took that photo to show the shingle atop the flashing and
that nail has to be going through it. That's what caused me to start
looking around and thus the other photos. I'm not liking this a
bit. The house was built in 2000. I'd sure like to get 20 years on
the roof. I might have to take an annual trek atop with a bucket of
snot.

In all those photos you see the same theme -- shingles atop flashing
and nails through both. I'm going to take some more photos as I
recall seeing rows of nails in a few other places. Uuuughhhhh.

window TRIM.. not trip..

On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:34:27 -0800 (PST), coloradotrout
wrote:

On Nov 11, 4:45Â*pm, "Kerry L." wrote:
"coloradotrout" wrote in message

...





So caulk here,

http://i36.tinypic.com/332cci1.jpg

That small gap between the trim board and the aluminum ( the first gap
you see going left to right) ?

What kind of caulk?

I want to use the absolute best product for this. Â* Would clear
silicone be OK? Â* GE Silicone II ?

Should I spead a 1" diameter patch over the nails, especially this
one..
http://i34.tinypic.com/9ktdoj.jpg

The roofing cement that I have is Black Jack 2172 Asphalt roof
patch.

If you look closely at this pic..
http://i38.tinypic.com/22xcte.jpg

It seems like the nail goes through the flashing. Â*These are the nails
right below that window all along the top row of shingles.

Follow Rico's advice.

Â*I would not use Silicone either, even if it says paintable. I have seen
Silicone used on nail heads, chimneys, & wood trim. Silicone appears to
have a problem with heat or UV rays or the combination of the two. Once it
starts to fail, you might as well grab an end, and just tug. It comes off
rather easily.

You do not need to make a patch any larger than the area you absolutely
need to cover.

I'm not a fan of Black Jack, but if that is what you have, might as well
use it. It's not like you're going to ruin the job. The roofer already took
care of that. Black Jack dries out too quick, the oil properties are not
long lasting. Just my opinion of course.

Looking at this picturehttp://i38.tinypic.com/22xcte.jpg, it appears
there is flashing under the shingles. Unless my eyes are deceiving me, I
see what looks like 4" galvanized between the butt joints of those
shingles. That row of shingles should've been worked under the flashing.

Sometimes you will have exposed nails, like the last 2 nails for ridge cap.
Or, _sometimes_ to hold existing flashing down. But, never leave any nails
exposed where the elements can penetrate. Â*I see you have exposed fastener
heads on the step flashing, near the corner of the dormer. Goodness, those
nails shouldn't even be there. Make sure you dab every visible nail head,
kinda smear it around. Don't forget to drive the nails b/4 dabbing. You
could pull them, but might open up another can of worms.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Give me a couple of roofing cement recommendations please. Even if I
have to, I'll shop another place besides Lowes and HD. Lowes had the
BlackJack. HD stocks Henry I think. On that photo you reference --
exactly -- I took that photo to show the shingle atop the flashing and
that nail has to be going through it. That's what caused me to start
looking around and thus the other photos. I'm not liking this a
bit. The house was built in 2000. I'd sure like to get 20 years on
the roof. I might have to take an annual trek atop with a bucket of
snot.
You won't get 20 yeaers on the roof. We had a 25 year roof installed
on our house and it needed replacement in 13 years. And it WAS
properly installed. We didn't have any leaks, and didn't loose any
shingles in wind storms, but there were areas that had lost most of
the "chips" and places where the shingles were cracking - so we
replaced it while there were no leaks and the weather was good.

On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:37:08 -0800 (PST), coloradotrout
wrote:

In all those photos you see the same theme -- shingles atop flashing
and nails through both. I'm going to take some more photos as I
recall seeing rows of nails in a few other places. Uuuughhhhh.

A properly installed "step flashing" can be almost totally invisible.
If a roofer puts a roof on my house and the flashing along a wall is
visible he'll be taking the roof off and doing it over again.
Only "root flashing" should be exposed (bottom of a vertical wall
where it meets a horizontal roof surface)
At least that's how it's done up here in the "great white north" where
ice dams are a fact of life.
Lots of roofing cement is used installing "step flashing" - with no
exposed nails and no "exposed" roofing cement
On "root flashing" it IS occaisionally necessary to have an exposed
nail go through flashing, in which case it is liberally coated with
fibrated roofing cement - which usually outlasts the shingles.

"coloradotrout" wrote in message
...


Give me a couple of roofing cement recommendations please. Even if I
have to, I'll shop another place besides Lowes and HD. Lowes had the
BlackJack. HD stocks Henry I think. On that photo you reference --
exactly -- I took that photo to show the shingle atop the flashing and
that nail has to be going through it. That's what caused me to start
looking around and thus the other photos. I'm not liking this a
bit. The house was built in 2000. I'd sure like to get 20 years on
the roof. I might have to take an annual trek atop with a bucket of
snot.

My favorite was Geocel 3300, it _was_ available only at supply houses.
http://www.geocelusa.com/php/retail/..._product_id=60

Check out their home page, apparently they sell their products to lumber
yards also. I do not know if you will be able to find 3300 without going to
a supply house, but I'd be willing to bet their other products are of
superb quality as well.

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:37:08 -0800 (PST), coloradotrout
wrote:

In all those photos you see the same theme -- shingles atop flashing
and nails through both. I'm going to take some more photos as I
recall seeing rows of nails in a few other places. Uuuughhhhh.

A properly installed "step flashing" can be almost totally invisible.
If a roofer puts a roof on my house and the flashing along a wall is
visible he'll be taking the roof off and doing it over again.
Only "root flashing" should be exposed (bottom of a vertical wall
where it meets a horizontal roof surface)
At least that's how it's done up here in the "great white north" where
ice dams are a fact of life.
Lots of roofing cement is used installing "step flashing" - with no
exposed nails and no "exposed" roofing cement
On "root flashing" it IS occaisionally necessary to have an exposed
nail go through flashing, in which case it is liberally coated with
fibrated roofing cement - which usually outlasts the shingles.

Your information is incorrect. This coming from someone who worked in the
ice dam capital of the USA.

The granules on shingles is for water diversion/dispersing, otherwise water
would _shoot_ down fast like on a metal roof.
If one makes the shingles tight against step flashing, water is dispersed
and can go under the shingle, taking the path of least resistance. You
should have a small channel at the shingle and any accessory, such as step
flashing, pot vents, soil boots, etc. You _want_ a channel for a path of
least resistance.

"Lots" of roofing cement should _not_ be in any roofers vocabulary. A small
bead on the _hidden_ edge is all, which is needed. "Liberally coated" is a
term used in hot mopping, not shingles.

With your attitude of how you want your roof done, you will never get a
professional.

"Kerry L." wrote in message
...
My favorite was Geocel 3300, it _was_ available only at supply houses.
http://www.geocelusa.com/php/retail/..._product_id=60


This 3300 is meant to dab the nail heads, _not_ for caulking around the
windows.

On Nov 11, 3:53*pm, Red Green wrote:
RicodJour wrote innews:1e613fc4-4090-4a56-

Lexel makes an excellent caulk that is paintable, clear and durable.
http://www.sashcocontractor.com/Home...ent/Lexel.aspx

Never used Lexel. Any idea how it compares to the PL polyurethanes?

It's a different animal - not really a direct comparison. It's clear,
which usually doesn't hurt, it guns easily, sets up pretty quickly,
stays pliable. Pick up a cartridge...it's on me...the recommendation
at least.

R

On Nov 11, 4:56*pm, coloradotrout wrote:
Ok.. so basically..

roof should have been shingled up to the dormer window,
then flashing applied atop the shingles and against the unsided wall
then the wall sided from the bottom upwards

In essence.. the "shingling" overlap approach would have been
continued up the roof and onto the walls.

That flashing should be visible -- as it should be sitting on top of
the to shingles. *As it is, it's tucked under the shingles, and the
shingles are nailed into it. * Now... just maybe.. *had those top row
of nails not been there (and the rest of the way up the wall is done
correctly) it might have been ok. * But those top shingles had to be
secured somehow -- so they were nailed.

Also, anywere a nail head is seen -- is probably bad ??? * By
comparison -- albeit most pathetic -- I shingled for the 1st time --
my chicken coop -- simple gable roof. *I put drip edge on, then
shingled from top to bottom, then put the ridge shingles on. *The ONLY
Place a nail head is seen is the last piece of ridge -- 2 nails , one
on either side (and I suppose I should dab on some roofing cement).

I have nail heads exposed all over the place on my house roof.

The leak is not bad -- we get some pretty heavy rains here. *I suppose
I need to see if I can reach the spot in the attic, but I'm doubtful I
can. *The floor to that window bottom is only about 2 feet. *Maybe I
can see with a flashlight the area though.

Maybe a tornado will wipe us out this next spring and we can start
over ;-)

You seem to be a quick study - for a fish. You've got the idea,
and you're right about the overlapping materials continuing right up
the wall. Think like water, and let it go where it wants to go, just
guide it a bit. If you fight it, you will lose.

The first thing you have to do is to locate what exactly is leaking.
I don't think it's coming from around the window trim, at least not
the top and probably not the sides. You need to work your way up the
roof spraying it with a hose. Let the hose spray a small area for a
while before moving on. There has to be a set of eyeballs with a
strong flashlight inside to see when the drips start and where. The
water may travel a bit before it works its way past the sheathing, or
it may just follow a nail shank down. In your situation it could be
coming from a couple of different places, and you're only seeing the
one apparent leak. You need the house to be tight in heavy rains with
driving winds.

One trick is to use some of the newer technology to help you out in
locating it. Google Ridgid SeeSnake - pretty nifty item and extremely
useful. You can also use a digital camera with video to zoom in on an
area that you can't get close enough to see clearly. You might have
to put the card in your computer to see the pictures with enough
detail, then go back and check the spot again with the hose.

R

On Nov 11, 8:08*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:37:08 -0800 (PST), coloradotrout

wrote:
In all those photos you see the same theme -- shingles atop flashing
and nails through both. * I'm going to take some more photos as I
recall seeing rows of nails in a few other places. *Uuuughhhhh.

A properly installed "step flashing" can be almost totally invisible.
If a roofer puts a roof on my house and the flashing along a wall is
visible he'll be taking the roof off and doing it over again.
Only "root flashing" should be exposed (bottom of a vertical wall
where it meets a horizontal roof surface)
At least that's how it's done up here in the "great white north" where
ice dams are a fact of life.
Lots of roofing cement is used installing "step flashing" - with no
exposed nails and no "exposed" roofing cement
On "root flashing" it IS occaisionally necessary to have an exposed
nail go through flashing, in which case it is liberally coated with
fibrated roofing cement - which usually outlasts the shingles.

I have never heard of "root flashing" for anything roof related. I
did a quick Google and that word, I do not think it is what you think
it is. Check it and see. The only places that "root flashing" showed
up in a search is where the OCR misinterpreted 'roof flashing'.

The flashing you are referring to is called, on both sides of the
pond, apron flashing. A chimney has apron flashing bridging the gap
from the roof to the chimney at the bottom edge of the chimney, step
flashing running up along the sides, and a counter flashing which is
tucked into the mortar joints and wraps down to cover the top of the
apron and step flashing.

There is some rather heated discussion between the two camps on how
step flashing is covered by roof shingles. Some say to run the
shingles tight to the wall, and others swear there has to be a gap.
If the flashing is installed correctly and of sufficient size, either
will work and not present problems.

There is never a situation on new construction where a nail has to be
placed through the flashing and the nail head left exposed. Cleats or
clips are the standard way to deal with the problem. If a roofer
doesn't know how to install a cleat, he isn't a roofer, no matter what
he does to earn money.

R

On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 20:53:16 -0500, "Kerry L." wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:37:08 -0800 (PST), coloradotrout
wrote:

In all those photos you see the same theme -- shingles atop flashing
and nails through both. I'm going to take some more photos as I
recall seeing rows of nails in a few other places. Uuuughhhhh.

A properly installed "step flashing" can be almost totally invisible.
If a roofer puts a roof on my house and the flashing along a wall is
visible he'll be taking the roof off and doing it over again.
Only "root flashing" should be exposed (bottom of a vertical wall
where it meets a horizontal roof surface)
At least that's how it's done up here in the "great white north" where
ice dams are a fact of life.
Lots of roofing cement is used installing "step flashing" - with no
exposed nails and no "exposed" roofing cement
On "root flashing" it IS occaisionally necessary to have an exposed
nail go through flashing, in which case it is liberally coated with
fibrated roofing cement - which usually outlasts the shingles.

Your information is incorrect. This coming from someone who worked in the
ice dam capital of the USA.

The granules on shingles is for water diversion/dispersing, otherwise water
would _shoot_ down fast like on a metal roof.
If one makes the shingles tight against step flashing, water is dispersed
and can go under the shingle, taking the path of least resistance. You
should have a small channel at the shingle and any accessory, such as step
flashing, pot vents, soil boots, etc. You _want_ a channel for a path of
least resistance.

"Lots" of roofing cement should _not_ be in any roofers vocabulary. A small
bead on the _hidden_ edge is all, which is needed. "Liberally coated" is a
term used in hot mopping, not shingles.

With your attitude of how you want your roof done, you will never get a
professional.


Sir, I know what the granules are for. They serve 2 or more purposes -
slowing down the water as you state is their SECONDARY purpose. at
best. The primary purpose is to protect the "fabric" of the shingle
from sun and weather damage. When the granules dissapear, the felt
backing of the shingle is soon gone as well. Another MAJOR purpose of
the ceramic granules is to provide fire resistance. If you do not
believe me, see: http://www.nrca.net/consumer/types/asphalt.aspx

I also know what step flashing is, and how it is installed here.
Step flashing is fully coated on the bottom side with roofing cement
and nailed down at the top edge, then the shingle is placed over the
flashing and sealed down with roofing cement. The shingles are cut to
leave roughly 1/2 inch gap between the end of the shingle and the step
flashing. The next step is then placed over the shingle, with the
metal tab extending JUST ABOVEwhere the bottom end of the next shingle
tab will end. (Up to 1/2 inch of step flashing MAY show below each
shingle tab, but I prefer to see NO flashing showing beyond the
shingle.)
It is done this way here to prevent the shingles from lifting off the
step flashing in high winds and to seal the flashing to the roof. It
is generally only nailed to the roof deck, making it possible to
remove and replace step flashing when replacing a roof without
disturbing the aluminum or vinyl siding most commonly used on the
upper floor walls and gable ends of houses here.

The roofer who installed the first replacement roof on our house
(before I bought it) did not seal the step flashing and we had a leak
down the wall that dripped out of the door between the house and
garage when it rained within a year of us buying the house.

We replaced that roof - my father who worked for many years in
construction, along with several experienced friends and myself. When
Dad saw how the step flashing had been installed (it was exposed to a
large degree ) he said the guy who installed it should be shot.
The new step flashing was installed with fibrated plastic roofing
cement on both sides - and it never leaked again. Used just over a
quart of cement between the step flashing above the garage and the
chimney flashing.

When the shingles (first generation fiber-glass -( not the best
quality stuff although it was "high end" at the time) started to crack
and curl after loosing much of the granule coating, I paid a roofer
(who did the roofing on many of the houses my Dad worked on over the
years) to do the job with laminated architectural shingles and
specified I wanted tar paper on the whole roof, and the step flashing
cemented. He said most people don't do it that way any more because it
costs more. "how much more?" I asked him. He said MABEE $200. I said
$200? DO IT!!!" He said he wished everyone thought that way -

See http://www.renovation-headquarters.c...shing-wall.htm for
confirmation that I am not the only one who thinks this is the right
way to do it. And no, I didn't write it.
http://toolbelt.buildiq.com/tool-doc...epFlashSBS.pdf also
shows the same method but does not mention the roofing cement.
Also see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzOn_8t4mZ4

As for the "root flashing" or "L" flashing, it is not uncommon to nail
it down where required and cover the flashing with a top row of
shingles cut to fit (exposed part only) stuck to the top of the
flashing with roofing cement. Makes the "L" flashing totally disapear.
Again, not as common as it used to be because it adds a small amount
to the cost of the job.

If the job's worth doing, it's worth doing right.

On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:26:28 -0800 (PST), RicodJour
wrote:

On Nov 11, 8:08Â*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:37:08 -0800 (PST), coloradotrout

wrote:
In all those photos you see the same theme -- shingles atop flashing
and nails through both. Â* I'm going to take some more photos as I
recall seeing rows of nails in a few other places. Â*Uuuughhhhh.

A properly installed "step flashing" can be almost totally invisible.
If a roofer puts a roof on my house and the flashing along a wall is
visible he'll be taking the roof off and doing it over again.
Only "root flashing" should be exposed (bottom of a vertical wall
where it meets a horizontal roof surface)
At least that's how it's done up here in the "great white north" where
ice dams are a fact of life.
Lots of roofing cement is used installing "step flashing" - with no
exposed nails and no "exposed" roofing cement
On "root flashing" it IS occaisionally necessary to have an exposed
nail go through flashing, in which case it is liberally coated with
fibrated roofing cement - which usually outlasts the shingles.

I have never heard of "root flashing" for anything roof related. I
did a quick Google and that word, I do not think it is what you think
it is. Check it and see. The only places that "root flashing" showed
up in a search is where the OCR misinterpreted 'roof flashing'.

The flashing you are referring to is called, on both sides of the
pond, apron flashing. A chimney has apron flashing bridging the gap
from the roof to the chimney at the bottom edge of the chimney,

And sometimes at the high side of the chimney too - chimneys are not
always at the peak of the roof

step
flashing running up along the sides, and a counter flashing which is
tucked into the mortar joints and wraps down to cover the top of the
apron and step flashing.

The guys around here call it "L" flashing or root flashing., but yes,
it is also called apron flashing. Most often tucked up under and
behind the bottom row of siding on the upper floor walls. (Most 2
stories in our area are brick veneer on the bottom floor with aluminum
(or lately vinyl) siding on the upper floor.

There is some rather heated discussion between the two camps on how
step flashing is covered by roof shingles. Some say to run the
shingles tight to the wall, and others swear there has to be a gap.
If the flashing is installed correctly and of sufficient size, either
will work and not present problems.

There is never a situation on new construction where a nail has to be
placed through the flashing and the nail head left exposed. Cleats or
clips are the standard way to deal with the problem. If a roofer
doesn't know how to install a cleat, he isn't a roofer, no matter what
he does to earn money.

R

On Nov 11, 11:49 pm, wrote:
On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 20:53:16 -0500, "Kerry L." wrote:
wrote in message
On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:37:08 -0800 (PST), coloradotrout
wrote:

In all those photos you see the same theme -- shingles atop flashing
and nails through both. I'm going to take some more photos as I
recall seeing rows of nails in a few other places. Uuuughhhhh.

A properly installed "step flashing" can be almost totally invisible.
If a roofer puts a roof on my house and the flashing along a wall is
visible he'll be taking the roof off and doing it over again.
Only "root flashing" should be exposed (bottom of a vertical wall
where it meets a horizontal roof surface)
At least that's how it's done up here in the "great white north" where
ice dams are a fact of life.
Lots of roofing cement is used installing "step flashing" - with no
exposed nails and no "exposed" roofing cement
On "root flashing" it IS occaisionally necessary to have an exposed
nail go through flashing, in which case it is liberally coated with
fibrated roofing cement - which usually outlasts the shingles.

Your information is incorrect. This coming from someone who worked in the
ice dam capital of the USA.

The granules on shingles is for water diversion/dispersing, otherwise water
would _shoot_ down fast like on a metal roof.
If one makes the shingles tight against step flashing, water is dispersed
and can go under the shingle, taking the path of least resistance. You
should have a small channel at the shingle and any accessory, such as step
flashing, pot vents, soil boots, etc. You _want_ a channel for a path of
least resistance.

"Lots" of roofing cement should _not_ be in any roofers vocabulary. A small
bead on the _hidden_ edge is all, which is needed. "Liberally coated" is a
term used in hot mopping, not shingles.

With your attitude of how you want your roof done, you will never get a
professional.

Sir, I know what the granules are for. They serve 2 or more purposes -
slowing down the water as you state is their SECONDARY purpose. at
best. The primary purpose is to protect the "fabric" of the shingle
from sun and weather damage. When the granules dissapear, the felt
backing of the shingle is soon gone as well. Another MAJOR purpose of
the ceramic granules is to provide fire resistance. If you do not
believe me, see:http://www.nrca.net/consumer/types/asphalt.aspx

I also know what step flashing is, and how it is installed here.
Step flashing is fully coated on the bottom side with roofing cement
and nailed down at the top edge, then the shingle is placed over the
flashing and sealed down with roofing cement. The shingles are cut to
leave roughly 1/2 inch gap between the end of the shingle and the step
flashing. The next step is then placed over the shingle, with the
metal tab extending JUST ABOVEwhere the bottom end of the next shingle
tab will end. (Up to 1/2 inch of step flashing MAY show below each
shingle tab, but I prefer to see NO flashing showing beyond the
shingle.)
It is done this way here to prevent the shingles from lifting off the
step flashing in high winds and to seal the flashing to the roof. It
is generally only nailed to the roof deck, making it possible to
remove and replace step flashing when replacing a roof without
disturbing the aluminum or vinyl siding most commonly used on the
upper floor walls and gable ends of houses here.

The roofer who installed the first replacement roof on our house
(before I bought it) did not seal the step flashing and we had a leak
down the wall that dripped out of the door between the house and
garage when it rained within a year of us buying the house.

We replaced that roof - my father who worked for many years in
construction, along with several experienced friends and myself. When
Dad saw how the step flashing had been installed (it was exposed to a
large degree ) he said the guy who installed it should be shot.
The new step flashing was installed with fibrated plastic roofing
cement on both sides - and it never leaked again. Used just over a
quart of cement between the step flashing above the garage and the
chimney flashing.

When the shingles (first generation fiber-glass -( not the best
quality stuff although it was "high end" at the time) started to crack
and curl after loosing much of the granule coating, I paid a roofer
(who did the roofing on many of the houses my Dad worked on over the
years) to do the job with laminated architectural shingles and
specified I wanted tar paper on the whole roof, and the step flashing
cemented. He said most people don't do it that way any more because it
costs more. "how much more?" I asked him. He said MABEE $200. I said
$200? DO IT!!!" He said he wished everyone thought that way -

See http://www.renovation-headquarters.c...shing-wall.htm for
confirmation that I am not the only one who thinks this is the right
way to do it. And no, I didn't write it. http://toolbelt.buildiq.com/tool-doc...ashSBS.pdfalso
shows the same method but does not mention the roofing cement.
Also see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzOn_8t4mZ4

As for the "root flashing" or "L" flashing, it is not uncommon to nail
it down where required and cover the flashing with a top row of
shingles cut to fit (exposed part only) stuck to the top of the
flashing with roofing cement. Makes the "L" flashing totally disapear.
Again, not as common as it used to be because it adds a small amount
to the cost of the job.

If the job's worth doing, it's worth doing right.

Man, I do not understand that stuff at all. How are you supposed to
rip a roof and reuse the flashing if it's glued top and bottom with
roof cement?

I also don't understand about you "specifying" to a roofer that you
want building felt on the whole roof. Every single roofing
manufacturer in existence already specified it in every piece of
literature they have, and on the every freaking bundle of shingles.
It would be like telling a car dealer, "Hey, make sure there are tires
on those wheels!"

Omitting the building felt or other underlayment automatically voids
the warranty. The fire resistance rating of the shingle is determined
with the building felt in place. It would kind of suck if your house
burned down and the insurance company refused to pay because you had
an un-rated roof assembly.

As far as the ice damming, that is not as much of a function of
shingling or flashing technique as a lack of insulation low down on
the roof, and that's where most ice damming occurs. That is one
reason that code requires self-sealing membrane at the eaves extending
up the roof a couple feet past the wall line, but does not require
membrane at the side wall. If you have a history of ice damming at
your side walls, due to insufficient wall insulation, then self-
sealing membrane should be installed extending up the wall and on to
the roof, and then the step flashing should be installed as the
shingles go on. The step flashing gets nailed only to the wall to
facilitate reroofing.

You do some things in some very different ways. I don't see any easy
way to do a total ripoff and reroof after you've - sorry - ruined the
step flashing with the roof cement. How do you strip a roof and reuse
the step flashing? That first link kind of contradicts itself and is
vague on the point of reroofing. Here's what it advises about reasons
for reroofing: "Flashing needs replacement. (It is worth noting that
most roofing contractors will not replace existing flashing when re-
roofing. The reason being that most flashing sits on the roof deck,
below the existing shingles.)" That is not true at all about step
flashing, so I'm not sure what they mean about most roofing sitting on
the roof deck.

Your second link shows exactly what I described above, except they
call the self-sealing membrane underlayment (which could be plain old
15" building felt). No mention of roof cement, all nails in step
flashing are into the side wall only. That link specifically
disagrees with what you have said you do.

Okay...that last video just ****ed me off. I am, seriously, going to
call GAF tomorrow and rip them a new one. The video has at least four
major mistakes. "I ALWAYS replace ALL flashing. It's not worth
reusing it to save a few bucks!" Are they kidding me?! Try hundreds
and hundreds of dollars. I'm supposed to pull siding, and chase out
grout lines to remove flashing? Then install new flashing, reinstall
(or, more likely, replace) the siding, regrout, and REPAINT? For a
reroof?! Those guys are on crack.

They show the chimney with nice copper flashing, and the voice over is
telling you to remove all the flashing. There's no reason to replace
that flashing. If you nail into the roof, yeah, sure, it'll be easy
to remove that flashing - ruin it - but easy to remove it. That makes
a re-roof more expensive. Then what are you supposed to do - slide
step flashing up under the siding somehow? Yeah, easier said than
done, and most times essentially impossible. The step flashing should
extend up the wall a good three or four inches minimum. It was also
really light gauge aluminum. He's talking about replacing all of the
flashing as it's not worth saving the "few dollars", then he installs
that crap?

R

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 20:53:16 -0500, "Kerry L." wrote:

Sir, I know what the granules are for. They serve 2 or more purposes -
slowing down the water as you state is their SECONDARY purpose. at
best. The primary purpose is to protect the "fabric" of the shingle
from sun and weather damage. When the granules dissapear, the felt
backing of the shingle is soon gone as well. Another MAJOR purpose of
the ceramic granules is to provide fire resistance. If you do not
believe me, see: http://www.nrca.net/consumer/types/asphalt.aspx

My point was about placing an obstruction in the path of water flow. I
don't want to get off topic taking it how a shingle is constructed. Heck,
we could go into opacity of the granules as well, but it has absolutely
nothing to do with water flow.



I also know what step flashing is, and how it is installed here.
Step flashing is fully coated on the bottom side with roofing cement
and nailed down at the top edge, then the shingle is placed over the
flashing and sealed down with roofing cement. The shingles are cut to
leave roughly 1/2 inch gap between the end of the shingle and the step
flashing. The next step is then placed over the shingle, with the
metal tab extending JUST ABOVEwhere the bottom end of the next shingle
tab will end. (Up to 1/2 inch of step flashing MAY show below each
shingle tab, but I prefer to see NO flashing showing beyond the
shingle.)
It is done this way here to prevent the shingles from lifting off the
step flashing in high winds and to seal the flashing to the roof. It
is generally only nailed to the roof deck, making it possible to
remove and replace step flashing when replacing a roof without
disturbing the aluminum or vinyl siding most commonly used on the
upper floor walls and gable ends of houses here.

The roofer who installed the first replacement roof on our house
(before I bought it) did not seal the step flashing and we had a leak
down the wall that dripped out of the door between the house and
garage when it rained within a year of us buying the house.

We replaced that roof - my father who worked for many years in
construction, along with several experienced friends and myself. When
Dad saw how the step flashing had been installed (it was exposed to a
large degree ) he said the guy who installed it should be shot.
The new step flashing was installed with fibrated plastic roofing
cement on both sides - and it never leaked again. Used just over a
quart of cement between the step flashing above the garage and the
chimney flashing.


No, but you created a problem when you go to replace that roof. If you
_must_ use some existing flashing, you'll have a heck of a time trying to
get it unstuck. More is not better. Your analogy would be similar if
someone were to say, just spread tar all over everything. It never leaked.
There's a correct way to flash, and the way your father did it. Sorry, but
professionals would never do it the way your father did.

Wow, what a nightmare, especially if one would to have stucco siding, as
the link you provided.





When the shingles (first generation fiber-glass -( not the best
quality stuff although it was "high end" at the time) started to crack
and curl after loosing much of the granule coating, I paid a roofer
(who did the roofing on many of the houses my Dad worked on over the
years) to do the job with laminated architectural shingles and
specified I wanted tar paper on the whole roof, and the step flashing
cemented. He said most people don't do it that way any more because it
costs more. "how much more?" I asked him. He said MABEE $200. I said
$200? DO IT!!!" He said he wished everyone thought that way -


Yep, you live in an area without strict codes. I have never worked an area
where felt was an option. No doubt why you get away with certain methods.



See http://www.renovation-headquarters.c...shing-wall.htm for
confirmation that I am not the only one who thinks this is the right
way to do it. And no, I didn't write it.
http://toolbelt.buildiq.com/tool-doc...epFlashSBS.pdf also
shows the same method but does not mention the roofing cement.
Also see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzOn_8t4mZ4


The problem with the first site you provided is, they appear to be
"experts" from vacuums to software & everything else. I really hope you
don't think this site would convince me or anyone else besides yourself, to
take them seriously.

The problem with the second site you provided is, someone cut the step
flashing too short, and forgot about the starter strip. I don't believe in
regulating the internet, but stuff like this shouldn't be allowed.

The problem we see with GAF, is they don't even recommend using a second
layer of protection at step flashing. Such as a small bead of sealant along
the hidden edge, let alone _embedding_ step flashing in cement. Of course,
they are using a 10"x7" step flashing, instead of standard size. As I said
_B/4_, around here condominium associations _require_ all apron flashing to
be covered by roofing material. Put some thought into this one, there is
no doubt water will be trapped. By shingling over the flashing, you depend
on the sealant to be you first & _only_ protection from intrusion. Water
will sit trapped, until it evaporates or takes the course of least
resistance.

It's your roof, there's plenty of people to take your money. Unfortunately,
you will find them.

On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 00:10:14 -0800 (PST), RicodJour
wrote:

On Nov 11, 11:49 pm, wrote:
On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 20:53:16 -0500, "Kerry L." wrote:
wrote in message
On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:37:08 -0800 (PST), coloradotrout
wrote:

In all those photos you see the same theme -- shingles atop flashing
and nails through both. I'm going to take some more photos as I
recall seeing rows of nails in a few other places. Uuuughhhhh.

A properly installed "step flashing" can be almost totally invisible.
If a roofer puts a roof on my house and the flashing along a wall is
visible he'll be taking the roof off and doing it over again.
Only "root flashing" should be exposed (bottom of a vertical wall
where it meets a horizontal roof surface)
At least that's how it's done up here in the "great white north" where
ice dams are a fact of life.
Lots of roofing cement is used installing "step flashing" - with no
exposed nails and no "exposed" roofing cement
On "root flashing" it IS occaisionally necessary to have an exposed
nail go through flashing, in which case it is liberally coated with
fibrated roofing cement - which usually outlasts the shingles.

Your information is incorrect. This coming from someone who worked in the
ice dam capital of the USA.

The granules on shingles is for water diversion/dispersing, otherwise water
would _shoot_ down fast like on a metal roof.
If one makes the shingles tight against step flashing, water is dispersed
and can go under the shingle, taking the path of least resistance. You
should have a small channel at the shingle and any accessory, such as step
flashing, pot vents, soil boots, etc. You _want_ a channel for a path of
least resistance.

"Lots" of roofing cement should _not_ be in any roofers vocabulary. A small
bead on the _hidden_ edge is all, which is needed. "Liberally coated" is a
term used in hot mopping, not shingles.

With your attitude of how you want your roof done, you will never get a
professional.

Sir, I know what the granules are for. They serve 2 or more purposes -
slowing down the water as you state is their SECONDARY purpose. at
best. The primary purpose is to protect the "fabric" of the shingle
from sun and weather damage. When the granules dissapear, the felt
backing of the shingle is soon gone as well. Another MAJOR purpose of
the ceramic granules is to provide fire resistance. If you do not
believe me, see:http://www.nrca.net/consumer/types/asphalt.aspx

I also know what step flashing is, and how it is installed here.
Step flashing is fully coated on the bottom side with roofing cement
and nailed down at the top edge, then the shingle is placed over the
flashing and sealed down with roofing cement. The shingles are cut to
leave roughly 1/2 inch gap between the end of the shingle and the step
flashing. The next step is then placed over the shingle, with the
metal tab extending JUST ABOVEwhere the bottom end of the next shingle
tab will end. (Up to 1/2 inch of step flashing MAY show below each
shingle tab, but I prefer to see NO flashing showing beyond the
shingle.)
It is done this way here to prevent the shingles from lifting off the
step flashing in high winds and to seal the flashing to the roof. It
is generally only nailed to the roof deck, making it possible to
remove and replace step flashing when replacing a roof without
disturbing the aluminum or vinyl siding most commonly used on the
upper floor walls and gable ends of houses here.

The roofer who installed the first replacement roof on our house
(before I bought it) did not seal the step flashing and we had a leak
down the wall that dripped out of the door between the house and
garage when it rained within a year of us buying the house.

We replaced that roof - my father who worked for many years in
construction, along with several experienced friends and myself. When
Dad saw how the step flashing had been installed (it was exposed to a
large degree ) he said the guy who installed it should be shot.
The new step flashing was installed with fibrated plastic roofing
cement on both sides - and it never leaked again. Used just over a
quart of cement between the step flashing above the garage and the
chimney flashing.

When the shingles (first generation fiber-glass -( not the best
quality stuff although it was "high end" at the time) started to crack
and curl after loosing much of the granule coating, I paid a roofer
(who did the roofing on many of the houses my Dad worked on over the
years) to do the job with laminated architectural shingles and
specified I wanted tar paper on the whole roof, and the step flashing
cemented. He said most people don't do it that way any more because it
costs more. "how much more?" I asked him. He said MABEE $200. I said
$200? DO IT!!!" He said he wished everyone thought that way -

See http://www.renovation-headquarters.c...shing-wall.htm for
confirmation that I am not the only one who thinks this is the right
way to do it. And no, I didn't write it. http://toolbelt.buildiq.com/tool-doc...ashSBS.pdfalso
shows the same method but does not mention the roofing cement.
Also see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzOn_8t4mZ4

As for the "root flashing" or "L" flashing, it is not uncommon to nail
it down where required and cover the flashing with a top row of
shingles cut to fit (exposed part only) stuck to the top of the
flashing with roofing cement. Makes the "L" flashing totally disapear.
Again, not as common as it used to be because it adds a small amount
to the cost of the job.

If the job's worth doing, it's worth doing right.

Man, I do not understand that stuff at all. How are you supposed to
rip a roof and reuse the flashing if it's glued top and bottom with
roof cement?

You don't re-use flashing - generally speaking.

I also don't understand about you "specifying" to a roofer that you
want building felt on the whole roof. Every single roofing
manufacturer in existence already specified it in every piece of
literature they have, and on the every freaking bundle of shingles.
It would be like telling a car dealer, "Hey, make sure there are tires
on those wheels!"

The VAST MAJORITY of shingled roofs in the last 10 years have not got
tar paper or roof felt on them

Omitting the building felt or other underlayment automatically voids
the warranty. The fire resistance rating of the shingle is determined
with the building felt in place. It would kind of suck if your house
burned down and the insurance company refused to pay because you had
an un-rated roof assembly.

Not true

As far as the ice damming, that is not as much of a function of
shingling or flashing technique as a lack of insulation low down on
the roof, and that's where most ice damming occurs. That is one
reason that code requires self-sealing membrane at the eaves extending
up the roof a couple feet past the wall line, but does not require
membrane at the side wall. If you have a history of ice damming at
your side walls, due to insufficient wall insulation, then self-
sealing membrane should be installed extending up the wall and on to
the roof, and then the step flashing should be installed as the
shingles go on. The step flashing gets nailed only to the wall to
facilitate reroofing.
When the sun shines on a dark roof and melts the snow where the sun
hits, and the eve is in shade, or the area next to the wall where the
step flashin is is in the shade, you get ice buildup - also known as
ice damming, even if the insulation is excellent. It happens sometimes
on our house which has over 18 inches of blown fiberblass in the
attic. - but on the roof of the unheated garage which butts up against
the south-east wall of the house.
You do some things in some very different ways. I don't see any easy
way to do a total ripoff and reroof after you've - sorry - ruined the
step flashing with the roof cement. How do you strip a roof and reuse
the step flashing?

As I said - the step flashing is not necessarily re-used
That first link kind of contradicts itself and is
vague on the point of reroofing. Here's what it advises about reasons
for reroofing: "Flashing needs replacement. (It is worth noting that
most roofing contractors will not replace existing flashing when re-
roofing. The reason being that most flashing sits on the roof deck,
below the existing shingles.)" That is not true at all about step
flashing, so I'm not sure what they mean about most roofing sitting on
the roof deck.

Your second link shows exactly what I described above, except they
call the self-sealing membrane underlayment (which could be plain old
15" building felt). No mention of roof cement, all nails in step
flashing are into the side wall only. That link specifically
disagrees with what you have said you do.

And the first link says into the roof deck only - which is how it is
usually done here - allowing the flashing to be pulled from behind the
siding and easily replaced.

Okay...that last video just ****ed me off. I am, seriously, going to
call GAF tomorrow and rip them a new one. The video has at least four
major mistakes. "I ALWAYS replace ALL flashing. It's not worth
reusing it to save a few bucks!" Are they kidding me?! Try hundreds
and hundreds of dollars. I'm supposed to pull siding, and chase out
grout lines to remove flashing? Then install new flashing, reinstall
(or, more likely, replace) the siding, regrout, and REPAINT? For a
reroof?! Those guys are on crack.

That is only necessary if you do things bass ackwards and nail the
step flashing to the wall instead of the roof.

They show the chimney with nice copper flashing, and the voice over is
telling you to remove all the flashing. There's no reason to replace
that flashing. If you nail into the roof, yeah, sure, it'll be easy
to remove that flashing - ruin it - but easy to remove it. That makes
a re-roof more expensive. Then what are you supposed to do - slide
step flashing up under the siding somehow? Yeah, easier said than
done, and most times essentially impossible.

It's done all the time.
The step flashing should
extend up the wall a good three or four inches minimum. It was also
really light gauge aluminum. He's talking about replacing all of the
flashing as it's not worth saving the "few dollars", then he installs
that crap?

R
Not going to argue with you - it's how it is done in a large part of
the world.

On Nov 12, 10:55*pm, wrote:
RicodJour wrote:
On Nov 11, 11:49 pm, wrote:
On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 20:53:16 -0500, "Kerry L." wrote:
wrote in message
coloradotrout wrote:

In all those photos you see the same theme -- shingles atop flashing
and nails through both. * I'm going to take some more photos as I
recall seeing rows of nails in a few other places. *Uuuughhhhh.

A properly installed "step flashing" can be almost totally invisible.
If a roofer puts a roof on my house and the flashing along a wall is
visible he'll be taking the roof off and doing it over again.
Only "root flashing" should be exposed (bottom of a vertical wall
where it meets a horizontal roof surface)
At least that's how it's done up here in the "great white north" where
ice dams are a fact of life.
Lots of roofing cement is used installing "step flashing" - with no
exposed nails and no "exposed" roofing cement
On "root flashing" it IS occaisionally necessary to have an exposed
nail go through flashing, in which case it is liberally coated with
fibrated roofing cement - which usually outlasts the shingles.

Your information is incorrect. This coming from someone who worked in the
ice dam capital of the USA.

The granules on shingles is for water diversion/dispersing, otherwise water
would _shoot_ down fast like on a metal roof.
If one makes the shingles tight against step flashing, water is dispersed
and can go under the shingle, taking the path of least resistance. You
should have a small channel at the shingle and any accessory, such as step
flashing, pot vents, soil boots, etc. You _want_ *a channel for a path of
least resistance.

"Lots" of roofing cement should _not_ be in any roofers vocabulary. A small
bead on the _hidden_ edge is all, which is needed. "Liberally coated" is a
term used in hot mopping, not shingles.

With your attitude of how you want your roof done, you will never get a
professional.

Sir, I know what the granules are for. They serve 2 or more purposes -
slowing down the water as you state is their SECONDARY purpose. at
best. The primary purpose is to protect the "fabric" of the shingle
from sun and weather damage. When the granules dissapear, the felt
backing of the shingle is soon gone as well. Another MAJOR purpose of
the ceramic granules is to provide fire resistance. If you do not
believe me, see:http://www.nrca.net/consumer/types/asphalt.aspx

I also know what step flashing is, and how it is installed here.
Step flashing is fully coated on the bottom side with roofing cement
and nailed down at the top edge, then the shingle is placed over the
flashing and sealed down with roofing cement. The shingles are cut to
leave roughly 1/2 inch gap between the end of the shingle and the step
flashing. The next step is then placed over the shingle, with the
metal tab extending JUST ABOVEwhere the bottom end of the next shingle
tab will end. (Up to 1/2 inch of step flashing MAY show below each
shingle tab, but I prefer to see NO flashing showing beyond the
shingle.)
It is done this way here to prevent the shingles from lifting off the
step flashing in high winds and to seal the flashing to the roof. It
is generally only nailed to the roof deck, making it possible to
remove and replace step flashing when replacing a roof without
disturbing the aluminum or vinyl siding most commonly used on the
upper floor walls and gable ends of houses here.

The roofer who installed the first *replacement roof on our house
(before I bought it) did not seal the step flashing and we had a leak
down the wall that dripped out of the door between the house and
garage when it rained within a year of us buying the house.

We replaced that roof - my father who worked for many years in
construction, along with several experienced friends and myself. When
Dad saw how the step flashing had been installed (it was exposed to a
large degree ) he said the guy who installed it should be shot.
The new step flashing was installed with fibrated plastic roofing
cement on both sides - and it never leaked again. Used just over a
quart of cement between the step flashing above the garage and the
chimney flashing.

When the shingles (first generation fiber-glass -( not the best
quality stuff although it was "high end" at the time) started to crack
and curl after loosing much of the granule coating, I paid a roofer
(who did the roofing on many of the houses my Dad worked on over the
years) to do the job with laminated architectural shingles and
specified I wanted tar paper on the whole roof, and the step flashing
cemented. He said most people don't do it that way any more because it
costs more. "how much more?" I asked him. He said MABEE $200. I said
$200? DO IT!!!" He said he wished everyone thought that way -

Seehttp://www.renovation-headquarters.com/roof-flashing-wall.htmfor
confirmation that I am not the only one who thinks this is the right
way to do it. And no, I didn't write it.http://toolbelt.buildiq.com/tool-doc...ashSBS.pdfalso
shows the same method but does not mention the roofing cement.
Also see *http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzOn_8t4mZ4

As for the "root flashing" or "L" flashing, it is not uncommon to nail
it down where required and cover the flashing with a top row of
shingles cut to fit (exposed part only) stuck to the top of the
flashing with roofing cement. Makes the "L" flashing totally disapear.
Again, not as common as it used to be because it adds a small amount
to the cost of the job.

If the job's worth doing, it's worth doing right.

Man, I do not understand that stuff at all. *How are you supposed to
rip a roof and reuse the flashing if it's glued top and bottom with
roof cement?

You don't re-use flashing - generally speaking.

Well, if the last guy makes sure you can't, I guess that makes your
method required. I try really hard not to screw the guy that comes
after me. I install access panels, leave some slack in the wiring so
there's some play at the box, don't bury junction boxes, make
maintenance as easy as possible, etc.

It takes no more time to install the flashing to the wall in new
construction, and it doesn't change anything other than allowing the
flashing to be re-used. Where exactly is the harm in that? I'll get
to the part where the major players recommend how I do it a bit
further down.

You're married to "this is the way we've always done it!" and refusing
to see that you wouldn't be giving anything up.

I also don't understand about you "specifying" to a roofer that you
want building felt on the whole roof. *Every single roofing
manufacturer in existence already specified it in every piece of
literature they have, and on the every freaking bundle of shingles.
It would be like telling a car dealer, "Hey, make sure there are tires
on those wheels!"

The VAST MAJORITY of shingled roofs in the last 10 years have not got
tar paper or roof felt on them

That's just simply bull****. There are hacks everywhere, but the VAST
MAJORITY of contractors are not hacks. Most people read the
instructions and follow the manufacturer's installation
recommendations. You do know that code requires you to follow the
manufacturer's instructions on roofing materials, right? You do know
that the IRC requires underlayment, right? What the hell are you
arguing about? Take away a little education from this instead of
arguing while standing on no legs.

Here's the NY version of the IRC, which has very minor differences.
No differences in the underlayment requirement.

§RR905.2.7 Underlayment application. For roof slopes from two units
vertical in 12 units horizontal (17-percent slope), up to four units
vertical in 12 units horizontal (33-percent slope), underlayment
shall be
two layers applied in the following manner. Apply a 19-inch (483
mm)
strip of underlayment felt parallel with and starting at the eaves,
fastened sufficiently to hold in place. Starting at the eave, apply
36-
inch-wide (914 mm) sheets of underlayment, overlapping successive
sheets
19 inches (483 mm), and fastened sufficiently to hold in place. For
roof
slopes of four units vertical in 12 units horizontal (33-percent
slope)
or greater, underlayment shall be one layer applied in the following
manner. Underlayment shall be applied shingle fashion, parallel to
and
starting from the eave and lapped 2 inches (51 mm), fastened
sufficiently
to hold in place. End laps shall be offset by 6 feet (1829 mm).

Go read your code, come back and tell me what it says.

Omitting the building felt or other underlayment automatically voids
the warranty. The fire resistance rating of the shingle is determined
with the building felt in place. *It would kind of suck if your house
burned down and the insurance company refused to pay because you had
an un-rated roof assembly.

Not true

Oh, really? You're saying that the UL and/or NFPA unilaterally
changes the manufacturer's roofing system and omits the underlayment
requirement from the installation? Go visit the NFPA site and read
any of their numerous PDFs on asphalt and fiberglass roof shingles -
they all say that they are to be tested as per the manufacturer's
installation instructions, which includes the underlayment.

As far as the ice damming, that is not as much of a function of
shingling or flashing technique as a lack of insulation low down on
the roof, and that's where most ice damming occurs. *That is one
reason that code requires self-sealing membrane at the eaves extending
up the roof a couple feet past the wall line, but does not require
membrane at the side wall. *If you have a history of ice damming at
your side walls, due to insufficient wall insulation, then self-
sealing membrane should be installed extending up the wall and on to
the roof, and then the step flashing should be installed as the
shingles go on. *The step flashing gets nailed only to the wall to
facilitate reroofing.

* When the sun shines on a dark roof and melts the snow where the sun
hits, and the eve is in shade, or the area next to the wall where the
step flashin is is in the shade, you get ice buildup - also known as
ice damming, even if the insulation is excellent. It happens sometimes
on our house which has over 18 inches of blown fiberblass in the
attic. - but on the roof of the unheated garage which butts up against
the south-east wall of the house.

You do some things in some very different ways. *I don't see any easy
way to do a total ripoff and reroof after you've - sorry - ruined the
step flashing with the roof cement. *How do you strip a roof and reuse
the step flashing?

As I said - the step flashing is not necessarily re-used

And I don't have to flush the toilet, but I do. It's a courtesy for
the guy that comes after me, a cost savings for the owner I'm working
for, and a sign of respect for the house I am working on.

That first link kind of contradicts itself and is
vague on the point of reroofing. *Here's what it advises about reasons
for reroofing: "Flashing needs replacement. *(It is worth noting that
most roofing contractors will not replace existing flashing when re-
roofing. *The reason being that most flashing sits on the roof deck,
below the existing shingles.)" *That is not true at all about step
flashing, so I'm not sure what they mean about most roofing sitting on
the roof deck.

Your second link shows exactly what I described above, except they
call the self-sealing membrane underlayment (which could be plain old
15" building felt). *No mention of roof cement, all nails in step
flashing are into the side wall only. *That link specifically
disagrees with what you have said you do.

And the first link says into the roof deck only - which is how it is
usually done here - allowing the flashing to be pulled from behind the
siding and easily replaced.



Okay...that last video just ****ed me off. *I am, seriously, going to
call GAF tomorrow and rip them a new one. *The video has at least four
major mistakes. *"I ALWAYS replace ALL flashing. *It's not worth
reusing it to save a few bucks!" *Are they kidding me?! *Try hundreds
and hundreds of dollars. *I'm supposed to pull siding, and chase out
grout lines to remove flashing? *Then install new flashing, reinstall
(or, more likely, replace) the siding, regrout, and REPAINT? *For a
reroof?! *Those guys are on crack.

That is only necessary if you do things bass ackwards and nail the
step flashing to the wall instead of the roof.

Okay, you're shooting the messenger. Fine. You've picked up a copy
of Fine Homebuilding once or twice? Here's a snippet from their web
site from their article on how to install step flashing:
"Most of the time, I like to avoid putting any extra holes in the roof
surface, so I nail step flashing to the sidewall only, where both the
next piece of flashing and the siding will cover the nail head."
http://www.finehomebuilding.com/how-...on-a-roof.aspx

The Journal of Light Construction, ever heard of it?
http://www.jlconline.com/cgi-bin/jlc...8980d35340&p=1
"Roof/Wall Intersection
Q. What is the best way to detail the connection of a pitched roof
abutting a sidewall?
A. According to the National Roofing Contractors Association, when the
rake edge of a pitched roof intersects a vertical wall, #15 felt
should be laid under the shingles, extending 3 to 4 inches up the
vertical wall. Metal step flashing (flashing shingles) should be used,
with one flashing shingle for each row of shingles. The flashing
shingle should be bent to extend under the asphalt shingles on the
roof about 2 inches, and 4 inches up the vertical wall. Each metal
shingle should be placed slightly up-roof from the bottom edge of the
asphalt shingle which overlaps it. Nail the flashing shingle with one
nail along the upper end of the vertical leg, as shown in the
illustration."

That article referenced the National Roofing Contractors Association
recommendations, you can look that one up on your own as you already
included a link to a page on their site.

They show the chimney with nice copper flashing, and the voice over is
telling you to remove all the flashing. *There's no reason to replace
that flashing. *If you nail into the roof, yeah, sure, it'll be easy
to remove that flashing - ruin it - but easy to remove it. *That makes
a re-roof more expensive. *Then what are you supposed to do - slide
step flashing up under the siding somehow? *Yeah, easier said than
done, and most times essentially impossible.

It's done all the time.

Generally there's about an inch gap above the shingles to the bottom
of the siding. How can you force aluminum flashing (which BTW, I
don't use) three or four inches up under the siding? What about the
nails holding the siding/trim in place? What about stucco siding?

The step flashing should
extend up the wall a good three or four inches minimum. *It was also
really light gauge aluminum. *He's talking about replacing all of the
flashing as it's not worth saving the "few dollars", then he installs
that crap?


Not going to argue with you - it's how it is done in a large part of
the world.

No, it really isn't. I thought you were someone who appreciated good
work, and were on this newsgroup to help other people. You're arguing
that code doesn't matter, the testing agencies are to be ignored, that
the manufacturers don't know what they are talking about, that there's
no problem with voiding a warranty and there's no point in making the
next guy's job easier/cheaper.

PLEASE. Do yourself a favor and go check what I've said. It doesn't
matter what is done in a particular neck of the woods if it violates
all of the things I mentioned above. There's a right way and a wrong
way, and you seem to be pushing to legitimize the latter.

There's nothing wrong with learning. There is something wrong with
being afraid to look because you're afraid you won't like what you
learn. By all rights you should be paying me for the education I'm
giving you, instead of arguing about it.

Forget about where I live and how I do things. Go check your local
code and let everybody know what it requires.

R

On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 21:30:09 -0800 (PST), RicodJour
wrote:


That's just simply bull****. There are hacks everywhere, but the VAST
MAJORITY of contractors are not hacks. Most people read the
instructions and follow the manufacturer's installation
recommendations. You do know that code requires you to follow the
manufacturer's instructions on roofing materials, right? You do know
that the IRC requires underlayment, right? What the hell are you
arguing about? Take away a little education from this instead of
arguing while standing on no legs.

Here's the NY version of the IRC, which has very minor differences.
No differences in the underlayment requirement.

3 out of 5 roofers I contacted brfore having my roof installed this
last time would not install "roofing felt" over the whole roof.
Only 2 would, and neither one did it as standard procedure.

§RR905.2.7 Underlayment application. For roof slopes from two units
vertical in 12 units horizontal (17-percent slope), up to four units
vertical in 12 units horizontal (33-percent slope), underlayment
shall be
two layers applied in the following manner. Apply a 19-inch (483
mm)
strip of underlayment felt parallel with and starting at the eaves,
fastened sufficiently to hold in place. Starting at the eave, apply
36-
inch-wide (914 mm) sheets of underlayment, overlapping successive
sheets
19 inches (483 mm), and fastened sufficiently to hold in place. For
roof
slopes of four units vertical in 12 units horizontal (33-percent
slope)
or greater, underlayment shall be one layer applied in the following
manner. Underlayment shall be applied shingle fashion, parallel to
and
starting from the eave and lapped 2 inches (51 mm), fastened
sufficiently
to hold in place. End laps shall be offset by 6 feet (1829 mm).

Go read your code, come back and tell me what it says.

That may be what is recommended - not necessarily what is actually
done.

Omitting the building felt or other underlayment automatically voids
the warranty. The fire resistance rating of the shingle is determined
with the building felt in place. Â*It would kind of suck if your house
burned down and the insurance company refused to pay because you had
an un-rated roof assembly.

Not true

Oh, really? You're saying that the UL and/or NFPA unilaterally
changes the manufacturer's roofing system and omits the underlayment
requirement from the installation? Go visit the NFPA site and read
any of their numerous PDFs on asphalt and fiberglass roof shingles -
they all say that they are to be tested as per the manufacturer's
installation instructions, which includes the underlayment.

I'm saying the insurance company will not fail to pay because there is
no roofing felt.


You do some things in some very different ways. Â*I don't see any easy
way to do a total ripoff and reroof after you've - sorry - ruined the
step flashing with the roof cement. Â*How do you strip a roof and reuse
the step flashing?

As I said - the step flashing is not necessarily re-used

And I don't have to flush the toilet, but I do. It's a courtesy for
the guy that comes after me, a cost savings for the owner I'm working
for, and a sign of respect for the house I am working on.

That is only necessary if you do things bass ackwards and nail the
step flashing to the wall instead of the roof.

Okay, you're shooting the messenger. Fine. You've picked up a copy
of Fine Homebuilding once or twice? Here's a snippet from their web
site from their article on how to install step flashing:
"Most of the time, I like to avoid putting any extra holes in the roof
surface, so I nail step flashing to the sidewall only, where both the
next piece of flashing and the siding will cover the nail head."
http://www.finehomebuilding.com/how-...on-a-roof.aspx

Makes it a royal bitch to replace flashing that DOES require replacing
when it is nailed to the wall under the siding. And you don't have
much to nail it to either with glass-clad or ten-test sheathing.

The Journal of Light Construction, ever heard of it?
http://www.jlconline.com/cgi-bin/jlc...8980d35340&p=1
"Roof/Wall Intersection
Q. What is the best way to detail the connection of a pitched roof
abutting a sidewall?
A. According to the National Roofing Contractors Association, when the
rake edge of a pitched roof intersects a vertical wall, #15 felt
should be laid under the shingles, extending 3 to 4 inches up the
vertical wall. Metal step flashing (flashing shingles) should be used,
with one flashing shingle for each row of shingles. The flashing
shingle should be bent to extend under the asphalt shingles on the
roof about 2 inches, and 4 inches up the vertical wall. Each metal
shingle should be placed slightly up-roof from the bottom edge of the
asphalt shingle which overlaps it. Nail the flashing shingle with one
nail along the upper end of the vertical leg, as shown in the
illustration."

That article referenced the National Roofing Contractors Association
recommendations, you can look that one up on your own as you already
included a link to a page on their site.

They show the chimney with nice copper flashing, and the voice over is
telling you to remove all the flashing. Â*There's no reason to replace
that flashing. Â*If you nail into the roof, yeah, sure, it'll be easy
to remove that flashing - ruin it - but easy to remove it. Â*That makes
a re-roof more expensive. Â*Then what are you supposed to do - slide
step flashing up under the siding somehow? Â*Yeah, easier said than
done, and most times essentially impossible.

It's done all the time.

Generally there's about an inch gap above the shingles to the bottom
of the siding. How can you force aluminum flashing (which BTW, I
don't use) three or four inches up under the siding? What about the
nails holding the siding/trim in place? What about stucco siding?

The step flashing should
extend up the wall a good three or four inches minimum. Â*It was also
really light gauge aluminum. Â*He's talking about replacing all of the
flashing as it's not worth saving the "few dollars", then he installs
that crap?


Not going to argue with you - it's how it is done in a large part of
the world.

No, it really isn't. I thought you were someone who appreciated good
work, and were on this newsgroup to help other people. You're arguing
that code doesn't matter, the testing agencies are to be ignored, that
the manufacturers don't know what they are talking about, that there's
no problem with voiding a warranty and there's no point in making the
next guy's job easier/cheaper.

PLEASE. Do yourself a favor and go check what I've said. It doesn't
matter what is done in a particular neck of the woods if it violates
all of the things I mentioned above. There's a right way and a wrong
way, and you seem to be pushing to legitimize the latter.

There's nothing wrong with learning. There is something wrong with
being afraid to look because you're afraid you won't like what you
learn. By all rights you should be paying me for the education I'm
giving you, instead of arguing about it.

Forget about where I live and how I do things. Go check your local
code and let everybody know what it requires.

R
What started all this BS was someone saying the step flashing should
be OVER the shingles.

THAT IS WRONG. You won't argue that, I hope.

I said if any roofer put my roof on with the step flashing showing,
he'd be tearing it off and doing it over..

Someone said I was wrong there.
You won't argue that either, will you?

And I have installed quite a few roofs over the years - including step
flashing (even into brick walls) and even cedar and white pine shakes.
Even a few of the old interlocking square shingles.(repair only - now
THOSE are fun).
Just not young enough to do it any more so I hired it done this time.
ANd I had to be specific to get it done the way I figured was right -
which meant 15lb felt (tar paper) over the entire roof.

You are not arguing I am wrong to demand that, are you?
I'm NOT SAYING it is not "required" - just saying it VERY OFTEN is not
installed.

That is from my experience - can't argue with that either. What is, is
- not necessarily what should be.

Also not saying you cannot nail step flashing to the wall -
The important thing is it only gets nailed to one or the other - and
the guys I learned from nailed to the roof and sealed the step
flashing to the roof, and stuck the shingles to the step flashing with
fibrated plastic roofing cement (usually Bull-dog wet-stick) and those
step flashings never leaked, and the high winds we often see here
never tore the shingles away from the flashed part of the roof. When
you get huge drifts of snow banked against the wall, then get 2 days
of thaw and a hard freeze, you get ice in the valleys and against the
walls (where the step flashing is) and often on the eaves too - no
matter how well insulated the house is. Insulation makes a BIG
difference in normal conditions, for sure.
The way the step flashing was installed on the original roof when I
bought my house it DID leak when the snow piled up against the wall,
melted and froze. It was not sealed with roofing cement, and not
nailed to the roof. It needed to be replaced, and the siding was on
the wall. Not fun removing the screwed up flashing - I can tell you
that.

Cann\'t really argue THAT either, can you??
How, pray tell me, do you nail step flashing to the wall when doing a
re-roof on a house with aluminum siding????
I'll tell you - you DON'T. You nail it to the roof.
Knit or woven valleys are common here too for the same reason - they
don't blow off and they don't leak. They are generally done over a
steel or aluminum valley flashing sealed to the roof with roofing
cement and covered with self stick or torch-down roof membrane so they
don't flex and crack. The old-timers and quality consious guys do it
this way - the guys doing "tract houses" or houses built on spec do
it the cheap and easy way - metal valley flashing and shingles cut to
leave the metal valley exposed.

You just like to argue. You keep saying I'm wrong. Mabee in a perfect
world I would be.

wrote in message
news
On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 21:30:09 -0800 (PST), RicodJour

3 out of 5 roofers I contacted brfore having my roof installed this
last time would not install "roofing felt" over the whole roof.
Only 2 would, and neither one did it as standard procedure.

Since you like GAF for reference, you better read up on underlayment.
Especially the part about in order to maintain UL Class A fire rating. You
did not contact any professionals for an estimate.



That may be what is recommended - not necessarily what is actually
done.

Not being done, does in noway make it the right thing to do. Geesh!


I'm saying the insurance company will not fail to pay because there is
no roofing felt.

You know this how?


What started all this BS was someone saying the step flashing should
be OVER the shingles.
THAT IS WRONG. You won't argue that, I hope.

I said if any roofer put my roof on with the step flashing showing,
he'd be tearing it off and doing it over..

Someone said I was wrong there.
You won't argue that either, will you?

I suppose you're referring to me. Read this slowly, NOWHERE did I say step
flashing is supposed to go over the shingles. I said APRON flashing. APRON
is different than step, need I explain the difference?

My reference was step flashing will be seen, by having a channel or where
siding does not run tight to roof line. I say you're wrong to cover as much
as possible (make it tight as possible). A half inch channel will allow
water to flow. If you ever been involved in fixing a mess where the
material was tight against the upside leg of step, you would see debis
under that shingle. This is caused by restricting or obstructing the flow
of water.



And I have installed quite a few roofs over the years - including step
flashing (even into brick walls) and even cedar and white pine shakes.
Even a few of the old interlocking square shingles.(repair only - now
THOSE are fun).
Just not young enough to do it any more so I hired it done this time.
ANd I had to be specific to get it done the way I figured was right -
which meant 15lb felt (tar paper) over the entire roof.


Oh my gosh, we have a winner. You are showing how much you _DON"T_ know.
Step flashing is _never_ "into" brick! Besides being vitually impossible to
do, that is why you brake & install counter flashing. The step flashing is
on the outside of the brick. Next time you attempt to B.S. someone, you'll
at least have your story straight.

For someone who talks about ice dams, all you talk about is felt as
underlayment. There is a product out, or has been out for 30 years or so,
called ice guard. Every major player in the manufacturing of roof
materials, offers it. Maybe read up on it, so you can say you've installed
thousands of feet. If you wanted the job done right, you should at least
know about it.

You know, you may BS people, which don't have an inkling about this
profession. However, you keep digging yourself deeper & deeper attempting
to show you know something. When in fact, you really don't have a clue.




You are not arguing I am wrong to demand that, are you?
I'm NOT SAYING it is not "required" - just saying it VERY OFTEN is not
installed.

That is from my experience - can't argue with that either. What is, is
- not necessarily what should be.

Unfortunately, too many people think like you do. The "oh well, this is the
way we do it". If they got into the real world, and had to do quality work,
they probably would be washing dishes.



Also not saying you cannot nail step flashing to the wall -
The important thing is it only gets nailed to one or the other - and
the guys I learned from nailed to the roof and sealed the step
flashing to the roof, and stuck the shingles to the step flashing with
fibrated plastic roofing cement (usually Bull-dog wet-stick) and those
step flashings never leaked, and the high winds we often see here
never tore the shingles away from the flashed part of the roof.

Good grief. That doesn't mean you have to butcher it for the next person. I
live in tornado alley, we are beyond the high winds. And, never have seen
shingles torn from step flashing. Entire roofs gone, second stories gone,
not just shingles by the flashing. I do know, if we ran into a job where
someone cemented all the flashing down, and it couldn't be saved/salvaged.
The charges for _hidden/extra_ work incurred would run into hundreds of
dollars.


you get huge drifts of snow banked against the wall, then get 2 days
of thaw and a hard freeze, you get ice in the valleys and against the
walls (where the step flashing is) and often on the eaves too - no
matter how well insulated the house is. Insulation makes a BIG
difference in normal conditions, for sure.
The way the step flashing was installed on the original roof when I
bought my house it DID leak when the snow piled up against the wall,
melted and froze. It was not sealed with roofing cement, and not
nailed to the roof. It needed to be replaced, and the siding was on
the wall. Not fun removing the screwed up flashing - I can tell you
that.

You need to read up on causes of ice dams. Ice will form on eaves first
(not sometimes as you say). I'm not going to explain it to you. You really
need to read, and not on some vacuum cleaner site.



Cann\'t really argue THAT either, can you??
How, pray tell me, do you nail step flashing to the wall when doing a
re-roof on a house with aluminum siding????
I'll tell you - you DON'T. You nail it to the roof.
Knit or woven valleys are common here too for the same reason - they
don't blow off and they don't leak. They are generally done over a
steel or aluminum valley flashing sealed to the roof with roofing
cement and covered with self stick or torch-down roof membrane so they
don't flex and crack. The old-timers and quality consious guys do it
this way - the guys doing "tract houses" or houses built on spec do
it the cheap and easy way - metal valley flashing and shingles cut to
leave the metal valley exposed.

Wow, any valley done correctly, will not leak. Metal, woven, or a half
woven w/cut back. You absolutely contradicted yourself. A metal exposed
valley is more time consuming than having a closed valley. If you really
knew anything, you wouldn't have made that statement. Torch down would get
you a fine around here, besides being outdated at least 30 years. You don't
seal the back of metal valleys, where are you getting this information? You
don't run metal under a closed valley, it would serve zero purpose. You
certainly are misinformed.


You just like to argue. You keep saying I'm wrong. Mabee in a perfect
world I would be.

No, it's not arguing. He just doesn't like misinformation spread.

On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 16:29:32 -0500, "Kerry L." wrote:


wrote in message
news
On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 21:30:09 -0800 (PST), RicodJour

3 out of 5 roofers I contacted brfore having my roof installed this
last time would not install "roofing felt" over the whole roof.
Only 2 would, and neither one did it as standard procedure.

Since you like GAF for reference, you better read up on underlayment.
Especially the part about in order to maintain UL Class A fire rating. You
did not contact any professionals for an estimate.
They wre ALL "professionals"
By "professionals" I mean they do it for pay, for a living. It's their
"day job" and they are in the yellow pages under "roofers"


That may be what is recommended - not necessarily what is actually
done.

Not being done, does in noway make it the right thing to do. Geesh!

I never said irt WAS right - or I wouldn't have demanded the
underlayment be installed. Would I??


I'm saying the insurance company will not fail to pay because there is
no roofing felt.

You know this how?
How about I work half time for an insurance company where my daughter
is the assistant operations manager? Good enough for ya?


What started all this BS was someone saying the step flashing should
be OVER the shingles.
THAT IS WRONG. You won't argue that, I hope.

I said if any roofer put my roof on with the step flashing showing,
he'd be tearing it off and doing it over..

Someone said I was wrong there.
You won't argue that either, will you?

I suppose you're referring to me. Read this slowly, NOWHERE did I say step
flashing is supposed to go over the shingles. I said APRON flashing. APRON
is different than step, need I explain the difference?

My reference was step flashing will be seen, by having a channel or where
siding does not run tight to roof line. I say you're wrong to cover as much
as possible (make it tight as possible). A half inch channel will allow
water to flow. If you ever been involved in fixing a mess where the
material was tight against the upside leg of step, you would see debis
under that shingle. This is caused by restricting or obstructing the flow
of water.


IF it was you, I clearly stated STEP flashing and you said if I wanted
it done that way I'd never get a "professional" to do it for me - yada
yada yada.. If it WASN't you, whoever it was DID say that.


And I have installed quite a few roofs over the years - including step
flashing (even into brick walls) and even cedar and white pine shakes.
Even a few of the old interlocking square shingles.(repair only - now
THOSE are fun).
Just not young enough to do it any more so I hired it done this time.
ANd I had to be specific to get it done the way I figured was right -
which meant 15lb felt (tar paper) over the entire roof.


Oh my gosh, we have a winner. You are showing how much you _DON"T_ know.
Step flashing is _never_ "into" brick! Besides being vitually impossible to
do, that is why you brake & install counter flashing. The step flashing is
on the outside of the brick. Next time you attempt to B.S. someone, you'll
at least have your story straight.

On some 100 year old brick farm houses the step flashing IS set into
the brick - no counter flashing used. - and NOT nailed to the roof in
that case. Martared into the brick joints and some real nasty angles.

For someone who talks about ice dams, all you talk about is felt as
underlayment. There is a product out, or has been out for 30 years or so,
called ice guard. Every major player in the manufacturing of roof
materials, offers it. Maybe read up on it, so you can say you've installed
thousands of feet. If you wanted the job done right, you should at least
know about it.
Ice dam is used on the edges - and as I stated on quite a few valleys
- Self sticking orTorch down roof membrane as it is also known

You know, you may BS people, which don't have an inkling about this
profession. However, you keep digging yourself deeper & deeper attempting
to show you know something. When in fact, you really don't have a clue.




You are not arguing I am wrong to demand that, are you?
I'm NOT SAYING it is not "required" - just saying it VERY OFTEN is not
installed.

That is from my experience - can't argue with that either. What is, is
- not necessarily what should be.

Unfortunately, too many people think like you do. The "oh well, this is the
way we do it". If they got into the real world, and had to do quality work,
they probably would be washing dishes.


SMART ASS - I never said it was right or acceptable - I said that is
how it is done. Get over it, and yourself. Fer cryin' out loud


Also not saying you cannot nail step flashing to the wall -
The important thing is it only gets nailed to one or the other - and
the guys I learned from nailed to the roof and sealed the step
flashing to the roof, and stuck the shingles to the step flashing with
fibrated plastic roofing cement (usually Bull-dog wet-stick) and those
step flashings never leaked, and the high winds we often see here
never tore the shingles away from the flashed part of the roof.

Good grief. That doesn't mean you have to butcher it for the next person. I
live in tornado alley, we are beyond the high winds. And, never have seen
shingles torn from step flashing. Entire roofs gone, second stories gone,
not just shingles by the flashing. I do know, if we ran into a job where
someone cemented all the flashing down, and it couldn't be saved/salvaged.
The charges for _hidden/extra_ work incurred would run into hundreds of
dollars.


you get huge drifts of snow banked against the wall, then get 2 days
of thaw and a hard freeze, you get ice in the valleys and against the
walls (where the step flashing is) and often on the eaves too - no
matter how well insulated the house is. Insulation makes a BIG
difference in normal conditions, for sure.
The way the step flashing was installed on the original roof when I
bought my house it DID leak when the snow piled up against the wall,
melted and froze. It was not sealed with roofing cement, and not
nailed to the roof. It needed to be replaced, and the siding was on
the wall. Not fun removing the screwed up flashing - I can tell you
that.

You need to read up on causes of ice dams. Ice will form on eaves first
(not sometimes as you say). I'm not going to explain it to you. You really
need to read, and not on some vacuum cleaner site.



Cann\'t really argue THAT either, can you??
How, pray tell me, do you nail step flashing to the wall when doing a
re-roof on a house with aluminum siding????
I'll tell you - you DON'T. You nail it to the roof.
Knit or woven valleys are common here too for the same reason - they
don't blow off and they don't leak. They are generally done over a
steel or aluminum valley flashing sealed to the roof with roofing
cement and covered with self stick or torch-down roof membrane so they
don't flex and crack. The old-timers and quality consious guys do it
this way - the guys doing "tract houses" or houses built on spec do
it the cheap and easy way - metal valley flashing and shingles cut to
leave the metal valley exposed.

Wow, any valley done correctly, will not leak. Metal, woven, or a half
woven w/cut back. You absolutely contradicted yourself. A metal exposed
valley is more time consuming than having a closed valley. If you really
knew anything, you wouldn't have made that statement. Torch down would get
you a fine around here, besides being outdated at least 30 years. You don't
seal the back of metal valleys, where are you getting this information? You
don't run metal under a closed valley, it would serve zero purpose. You
certainly are misinformed.


You just like to argue. You keep saying I'm wrong. Mabee in a perfect
world I would be.

No, it's not arguing. He just doesn't like misinformation spread.

Bye Bye!!!

wrote in message
...

They wre ALL "professionals"
By "professionals" I mean they do it for pay, for a living. It's their
"day job" and they are in the yellow pages under "roofers"

Exactly, it doesn't make them a professional. The first clue would be
having to "ask" for underlayment.


I never said irt WAS right - or I wouldn't have demanded the
underlayment be installed. Would I??

And, being in snow country, where's the ice guard? You got what you
deserved.



You know this how?
How about I work half time for an insurance company where my daughter
is the assistant operations manager? Good enough for ya?

Now, if you were to say she was an adjuster, you would have something. But,
working in an insurance office, doesn't remotely qualify someone to be an
adjuster. You should know an adjuster requires qualifications not obtained
in the office. You keep trying to pull yourself off as someone with
knowledge, and end up looking like a, well, like a fool.


IF it was you, I clearly stated STEP flashing and you said if I wanted
it done that way I'd never get a "professional" to do it for me - yada
yada yada.. If it WASN't you, whoever it was DID say that.

Nope, look again! I commented on the entire cloud 9, you attempted to be
on. Go ahead, look!


On some 100 year old brick farm houses the step flashing IS set into
the brick - no counter flashing used. - and NOT nailed to the roof in
that case. Martared into the brick joints and some real nasty angles.

It's called a one piece. See, you don't even know all counter flashing
_should_ be tucked into mortar joints. Nasty angles? Who are you trying to
kid? That's the work I loved to do, and I can tell, you've never done it.
You cut joints if there isn't any, with a angle grinder. There's some more
information for you, for the next person you try to BS.


SMART ASS - I never said it was right or acceptable - I said that is
how it is done. Get over it, and yourself. Fer cryin' out loud

LOL... Don't be upset because you got called out on your lies, and caught.
What's that saying, it's better to be thought a fool, than to open your
mouth and remove all doubt. You probably want to take that saying to heart.


Bye Bye!!!

Yep, c ya around. Have a nice evening.

wrote in message
...
On some 100 year old brick farm houses the step flashing IS set into
the brick - no counter flashing used. - and NOT nailed to the roof in
that case. Martared into the brick joints and some real nasty angles.

BTW, the technical term for the cut in mortar joints is called a reglet.
And, in the old days those one piece were laid while the chimney was being
built. Just a bit of information, next time you feel like telling stories.

On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 20:03:11 -0500, "Kerry L." wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On some 100 year old brick farm houses the step flashing IS set into
the brick - no counter flashing used. - and NOT nailed to the roof in
that case. Martared into the brick joints and some real nasty angles.

BTW, the technical term for the cut in mortar joints is called a reglet.
And, in the old days those one piece were laid while the chimney was being
built. Just a bit of information, next time you feel like telling stories.


I didn't mention chimneys. and not one peice - angled step flashings
because the bricks run horizontally and vertically, and the roof runs
at an angle.