On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 21:30:09 -0800 (PST), RicodJour
wrote:
That's just simply bull****. There are hacks everywhere, but the VAST
MAJORITY of contractors are not hacks. Most people read the
instructions and follow the manufacturer's installation
recommendations. You do know that code requires you to follow the
manufacturer's instructions on roofing materials, right? You do know
that the IRC requires underlayment, right? What the hell are you
arguing about? Take away a little education from this instead of
arguing while standing on no legs.
Here's the NY version of the IRC, which has very minor differences.
No differences in the underlayment requirement.
3 out of 5 roofers I contacted brfore having my roof installed this
last time would not install "roofing felt" over the whole roof.
Only 2 would, and neither one did it as standard procedure.
§RR905.2.7 Underlayment application. For roof slopes from two units
vertical in 12 units horizontal (17-percent slope), up to four units
vertical in 12 units horizontal (33-percent slope), underlayment
shall be
two layers applied in the following manner. Apply a 19-inch (483
mm)
strip of underlayment felt parallel with and starting at the eaves,
fastened sufficiently to hold in place. Starting at the eave, apply
36-
inch-wide (914 mm) sheets of underlayment, overlapping successive
sheets
19 inches (483 mm), and fastened sufficiently to hold in place. For
roof
slopes of four units vertical in 12 units horizontal (33-percent
slope)
or greater, underlayment shall be one layer applied in the following
manner. Underlayment shall be applied shingle fashion, parallel to
and
starting from the eave and lapped 2 inches (51 mm), fastened
sufficiently
to hold in place. End laps shall be offset by 6 feet (1829 mm).
Go read your code, come back and tell me what it says.
That may be what is recommended - not necessarily what is actually
done.
Omitting the building felt or other underlayment automatically voids
the warranty. The fire resistance rating of the shingle is determined
with the building felt in place. Â*It would kind of suck if your house
burned down and the insurance company refused to pay because you had
an un-rated roof assembly.
Not true
Oh, really? You're saying that the UL and/or NFPA unilaterally
changes the manufacturer's roofing system and omits the underlayment
requirement from the installation? Go visit the NFPA site and read
any of their numerous PDFs on asphalt and fiberglass roof shingles -
they all say that they are to be tested as per the manufacturer's
installation instructions, which includes the underlayment.
I'm saying the insurance company will not fail to pay because there is
no roofing felt.
You do some things in some very different ways. Â*I don't see any easy
way to do a total ripoff and reroof after you've - sorry - ruined the
step flashing with the roof cement. Â*How do you strip a roof and reuse
the step flashing?
As I said - the step flashing is not necessarily re-used
And I don't have to flush the toilet, but I do. It's a courtesy for
the guy that comes after me, a cost savings for the owner I'm working
for, and a sign of respect for the house I am working on.
That is only necessary if you do things bass ackwards and nail the
step flashing to the wall instead of the roof.
Okay, you're shooting the messenger. Fine. You've picked up a copy
of Fine Homebuilding once or twice? Here's a snippet from their web
site from their article on how to install step flashing:
"Most of the time, I like to avoid putting any extra holes in the roof
surface, so I nail step flashing to the sidewall only, where both the
next piece of flashing and the siding will cover the nail head."
http://www.finehomebuilding.com/how-...on-a-roof.aspx
Makes it a royal bitch to replace flashing that DOES require replacing
when it is nailed to the wall under the siding. And you don't have
much to nail it to either with glass-clad or ten-test sheathing.
The Journal of Light Construction, ever heard of it?
http://www.jlconline.com/cgi-bin/jlc...8980d35340&p=1
"Roof/Wall Intersection
Q. What is the best way to detail the connection of a pitched roof
abutting a sidewall?
A. According to the National Roofing Contractors Association, when the
rake edge of a pitched roof intersects a vertical wall, #15 felt
should be laid under the shingles, extending 3 to 4 inches up the
vertical wall. Metal step flashing (flashing shingles) should be used,
with one flashing shingle for each row of shingles. The flashing
shingle should be bent to extend under the asphalt shingles on the
roof about 2 inches, and 4 inches up the vertical wall. Each metal
shingle should be placed slightly up-roof from the bottom edge of the
asphalt shingle which overlaps it. Nail the flashing shingle with one
nail along the upper end of the vertical leg, as shown in the
illustration."
That article referenced the National Roofing Contractors Association
recommendations, you can look that one up on your own as you already
included a link to a page on their site.
They show the chimney with nice copper flashing, and the voice over is
telling you to remove all the flashing. Â*There's no reason to replace
that flashing. Â*If you nail into the roof, yeah, sure, it'll be easy
to remove that flashing - ruin it - but easy to remove it. Â*That makes
a re-roof more expensive. Â*Then what are you supposed to do - slide
step flashing up under the siding somehow? Â*Yeah, easier said than
done, and most times essentially impossible.
It's done all the time.
Generally there's about an inch gap above the shingles to the bottom
of the siding. How can you force aluminum flashing (which BTW, I
don't use) three or four inches up under the siding? What about the
nails holding the siding/trim in place? What about stucco siding?
The step flashing should
extend up the wall a good three or four inches minimum. Â*It was also
really light gauge aluminum. Â*He's talking about replacing all of the
flashing as it's not worth saving the "few dollars", then he installs
that crap?
Not going to argue with you - it's how it is done in a large part of
the world.
No, it really isn't. I thought you were someone who appreciated good
work, and were on this newsgroup to help other people. You're arguing
that code doesn't matter, the testing agencies are to be ignored, that
the manufacturers don't know what they are talking about, that there's
no problem with voiding a warranty and there's no point in making the
next guy's job easier/cheaper.
PLEASE. Do yourself a favor and go check what I've said. It doesn't
matter what is done in a particular neck of the woods if it violates
all of the things I mentioned above. There's a right way and a wrong
way, and you seem to be pushing to legitimize the latter.
There's nothing wrong with learning. There is something wrong with
being afraid to look because you're afraid you won't like what you
learn. By all rights you should be paying me for the education I'm
giving you, instead of arguing about it.
Forget about where I live and how I do things. Go check your local
code and let everybody know what it requires.
R
What started all this BS was someone saying the step flashing should
be OVER the shingles.
THAT IS WRONG. You won't argue that, I hope.
I said if any roofer put my roof on with the step flashing showing,
he'd be tearing it off and doing it over..
Someone said I was wrong there.
You won't argue that either, will you?
And I have installed quite a few roofs over the years - including step
flashing (even into brick walls) and even cedar and white pine shakes.
Even a few of the old interlocking square shingles.(repair only - now
THOSE are fun).
Just not young enough to do it any more so I hired it done this time.
ANd I had to be specific to get it done the way I figured was right -
which meant 15lb felt (tar paper) over the entire roof.
You are not arguing I am wrong to demand that, are you?
I'm NOT SAYING it is not "required" - just saying it VERY OFTEN is not
installed.
That is from my experience - can't argue with that either. What is, is
- not necessarily what should be.
Also not saying you cannot nail step flashing to the wall -
The important thing is it only gets nailed to one or the other - and
the guys I learned from nailed to the roof and sealed the step
flashing to the roof, and stuck the shingles to the step flashing with
fibrated plastic roofing cement (usually Bull-dog wet-stick) and those
step flashings never leaked, and the high winds we often see here
never tore the shingles away from the flashed part of the roof. When
you get huge drifts of snow banked against the wall, then get 2 days
of thaw and a hard freeze, you get ice in the valleys and against the
walls (where the step flashing is) and often on the eaves too - no
matter how well insulated the house is. Insulation makes a BIG
difference in normal conditions, for sure.
The way the step flashing was installed on the original roof when I
bought my house it DID leak when the snow piled up against the wall,
melted and froze. It was not sealed with roofing cement, and not
nailed to the roof. It needed to be replaced, and the siding was on
the wall. Not fun removing the screwed up flashing - I can tell you
that.
Cann\'t really argue THAT either, can you??
How, pray tell me, do you nail step flashing to the wall when doing a
re-roof on a house with aluminum siding????
I'll tell you - you DON'T. You nail it to the roof.
Knit or woven valleys are common here too for the same reason - they
don't blow off and they don't leak. They are generally done over a
steel or aluminum valley flashing sealed to the roof with roofing
cement and covered with self stick or torch-down roof membrane so they
don't flex and crack. The old-timers and quality consious guys do it
this way - the guys doing "tract houses" or houses built on spec do
it the cheap and easy way - metal valley flashing and shingles cut to
leave the metal valley exposed.
You just like to argue. You keep saying I'm wrong. Mabee in a perfect
world I would be.