On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 00:10:14 -0800 (PST), RicodJour
wrote:

On Nov 11, 11:49 pm, wrote:
On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 20:53:16 -0500, "Kerry L." wrote:
wrote in message
On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:37:08 -0800 (PST), coloradotrout
wrote:

In all those photos you see the same theme -- shingles atop flashing
and nails through both. I'm going to take some more photos as I
recall seeing rows of nails in a few other places. Uuuughhhhh.

A properly installed "step flashing" can be almost totally invisible.
If a roofer puts a roof on my house and the flashing along a wall is
visible he'll be taking the roof off and doing it over again.
Only "root flashing" should be exposed (bottom of a vertical wall
where it meets a horizontal roof surface)
At least that's how it's done up here in the "great white north" where
ice dams are a fact of life.
Lots of roofing cement is used installing "step flashing" - with no
exposed nails and no "exposed" roofing cement
On "root flashing" it IS occaisionally necessary to have an exposed
nail go through flashing, in which case it is liberally coated with
fibrated roofing cement - which usually outlasts the shingles.

Your information is incorrect. This coming from someone who worked in the
ice dam capital of the USA.

The granules on shingles is for water diversion/dispersing, otherwise water
would _shoot_ down fast like on a metal roof.
If one makes the shingles tight against step flashing, water is dispersed
and can go under the shingle, taking the path of least resistance. You
should have a small channel at the shingle and any accessory, such as step
flashing, pot vents, soil boots, etc. You _want_ a channel for a path of
least resistance.

"Lots" of roofing cement should _not_ be in any roofers vocabulary. A small
bead on the _hidden_ edge is all, which is needed. "Liberally coated" is a
term used in hot mopping, not shingles.

With your attitude of how you want your roof done, you will never get a
professional.

Sir, I know what the granules are for. They serve 2 or more purposes -
slowing down the water as you state is their SECONDARY purpose. at
best. The primary purpose is to protect the "fabric" of the shingle
from sun and weather damage. When the granules dissapear, the felt
backing of the shingle is soon gone as well. Another MAJOR purpose of
the ceramic granules is to provide fire resistance. If you do not
believe me, see:http://www.nrca.net/consumer/types/asphalt.aspx

I also know what step flashing is, and how it is installed here.
Step flashing is fully coated on the bottom side with roofing cement
and nailed down at the top edge, then the shingle is placed over the
flashing and sealed down with roofing cement. The shingles are cut to
leave roughly 1/2 inch gap between the end of the shingle and the step
flashing. The next step is then placed over the shingle, with the
metal tab extending JUST ABOVEwhere the bottom end of the next shingle
tab will end. (Up to 1/2 inch of step flashing MAY show below each
shingle tab, but I prefer to see NO flashing showing beyond the
shingle.)
It is done this way here to prevent the shingles from lifting off the
step flashing in high winds and to seal the flashing to the roof. It
is generally only nailed to the roof deck, making it possible to
remove and replace step flashing when replacing a roof without
disturbing the aluminum or vinyl siding most commonly used on the
upper floor walls and gable ends of houses here.

The roofer who installed the first replacement roof on our house
(before I bought it) did not seal the step flashing and we had a leak
down the wall that dripped out of the door between the house and
garage when it rained within a year of us buying the house.

We replaced that roof - my father who worked for many years in
construction, along with several experienced friends and myself. When
Dad saw how the step flashing had been installed (it was exposed to a
large degree ) he said the guy who installed it should be shot.
The new step flashing was installed with fibrated plastic roofing
cement on both sides - and it never leaked again. Used just over a
quart of cement between the step flashing above the garage and the
chimney flashing.

When the shingles (first generation fiber-glass -( not the best
quality stuff although it was "high end" at the time) started to crack
and curl after loosing much of the granule coating, I paid a roofer
(who did the roofing on many of the houses my Dad worked on over the
years) to do the job with laminated architectural shingles and
specified I wanted tar paper on the whole roof, and the step flashing
cemented. He said most people don't do it that way any more because it
costs more. "how much more?" I asked him. He said MABEE $200. I said
$200? DO IT!!!" He said he wished everyone thought that way -

See http://www.renovation-headquarters.c...shing-wall.htm for
confirmation that I am not the only one who thinks this is the right
way to do it. And no, I didn't write it. http://toolbelt.buildiq.com/tool-doc...ashSBS.pdfalso
shows the same method but does not mention the roofing cement.
Also see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzOn_8t4mZ4

As for the "root flashing" or "L" flashing, it is not uncommon to nail
it down where required and cover the flashing with a top row of
shingles cut to fit (exposed part only) stuck to the top of the
flashing with roofing cement. Makes the "L" flashing totally disapear.
Again, not as common as it used to be because it adds a small amount
to the cost of the job.

If the job's worth doing, it's worth doing right.

Man, I do not understand that stuff at all. How are you supposed to
rip a roof and reuse the flashing if it's glued top and bottom with
roof cement?

You don't re-use flashing - generally speaking.

I also don't understand about you "specifying" to a roofer that you
want building felt on the whole roof. Every single roofing
manufacturer in existence already specified it in every piece of
literature they have, and on the every freaking bundle of shingles.
It would be like telling a car dealer, "Hey, make sure there are tires
on those wheels!"

The VAST MAJORITY of shingled roofs in the last 10 years have not got
tar paper or roof felt on them

Omitting the building felt or other underlayment automatically voids
the warranty. The fire resistance rating of the shingle is determined
with the building felt in place. It would kind of suck if your house
burned down and the insurance company refused to pay because you had
an un-rated roof assembly.

Not true

As far as the ice damming, that is not as much of a function of
shingling or flashing technique as a lack of insulation low down on
the roof, and that's where most ice damming occurs. That is one
reason that code requires self-sealing membrane at the eaves extending
up the roof a couple feet past the wall line, but does not require
membrane at the side wall. If you have a history of ice damming at
your side walls, due to insufficient wall insulation, then self-
sealing membrane should be installed extending up the wall and on to
the roof, and then the step flashing should be installed as the
shingles go on. The step flashing gets nailed only to the wall to
facilitate reroofing.
When the sun shines on a dark roof and melts the snow where the sun
hits, and the eve is in shade, or the area next to the wall where the
step flashin is is in the shade, you get ice buildup - also known as
ice damming, even if the insulation is excellent. It happens sometimes
on our house which has over 18 inches of blown fiberblass in the
attic. - but on the roof of the unheated garage which butts up against
the south-east wall of the house.
You do some things in some very different ways. I don't see any easy
way to do a total ripoff and reroof after you've - sorry - ruined the
step flashing with the roof cement. How do you strip a roof and reuse
the step flashing?

As I said - the step flashing is not necessarily re-used
That first link kind of contradicts itself and is
vague on the point of reroofing. Here's what it advises about reasons
for reroofing: "Flashing needs replacement. (It is worth noting that
most roofing contractors will not replace existing flashing when re-
roofing. The reason being that most flashing sits on the roof deck,
below the existing shingles.)" That is not true at all about step
flashing, so I'm not sure what they mean about most roofing sitting on
the roof deck.

Your second link shows exactly what I described above, except they
call the self-sealing membrane underlayment (which could be plain old
15" building felt). No mention of roof cement, all nails in step
flashing are into the side wall only. That link specifically
disagrees with what you have said you do.

And the first link says into the roof deck only - which is how it is
usually done here - allowing the flashing to be pulled from behind the
siding and easily replaced.

Okay...that last video just ****ed me off. I am, seriously, going to
call GAF tomorrow and rip them a new one. The video has at least four
major mistakes. "I ALWAYS replace ALL flashing. It's not worth
reusing it to save a few bucks!" Are they kidding me?! Try hundreds
and hundreds of dollars. I'm supposed to pull siding, and chase out
grout lines to remove flashing? Then install new flashing, reinstall
(or, more likely, replace) the siding, regrout, and REPAINT? For a
reroof?! Those guys are on crack.

That is only necessary if you do things bass ackwards and nail the
step flashing to the wall instead of the roof.

They show the chimney with nice copper flashing, and the voice over is
telling you to remove all the flashing. There's no reason to replace
that flashing. If you nail into the roof, yeah, sure, it'll be easy
to remove that flashing - ruin it - but easy to remove it. That makes
a re-roof more expensive. Then what are you supposed to do - slide
step flashing up under the siding somehow? Yeah, easier said than
done, and most times essentially impossible.

It's done all the time.
The step flashing should
extend up the wall a good three or four inches minimum. It was also
really light gauge aluminum. He's talking about replacing all of the
flashing as it's not worth saving the "few dollars", then he installs
that crap?

R
Not going to argue with you - it's how it is done in a large part of
the world.