I've had a GFCI outlet that powers a refrigerator and some kitchen and
basement outlets trip twice within the last year. I've reset it after each
trip and it seems to go another six months before it trips again.

What's the best way to determine if this is just a random event or whether
the GFCI is pointing toward a potential shock hazard?

--
Bobby G.

"Robert Green" wrote in
:

I've had a GFCI outlet that powers a refrigerator and some kitchen and
basement outlets trip twice within the last year. I've reset it after
each trip and it seems to go another six months before it trips again.

What's the best way to determine if this is just a random event or
whether the GFCI is pointing toward a potential shock hazard?

--
Bobby G.




Refrigerators require their own dedicated circuit with no GFCI.

Kitchen receptacles require their own dedicated circuit/'s as well, They
need to be GFCI protected only if the receptacle is approximately five feet
from a water source (sink).

The occasional tripping maybe to due to the fridge motor kicking on while a
toaster or some other device is drawing power. Even a plug being pulled
quickly from a receptacle can arc and cause a trip of the GFCI. Regardless,
your circuit configuration is not acceptable under the current electrical
codes.

You can buy inexpensive receptacle testers that will test a GFCI and other
receptacles for proper grounding. As long as the receptacle is properly
grounded, short circuits will go to ground and shock hazard will be
minimal.

Diagnosing electrical problems without looking at them is difficult as one
cannot determine the quality of the workmanship that went into the initial
wiring of the circuits.


Good Luck

On Oct 15, 1:18*am, "Robert Green" wrote:
I've had a GFCI outlet that powers a refrigerator and some kitchen and
basement outlets trip twice within the last year. *I've reset it after each
trip and it seems to go another six months before it trips again.

What's the best way to determine if this is just a random event or whether
the GFCI is pointing toward a potential shock hazard?

--
Bobby G.

Gfci are not for a frige, if they trip the food is ruined, mine
tripped I removed it.

"Screed" wrote in message
...
"Robert Green" wrote in
:

I've had a GFCI outlet that powers a refrigerator and some kitchen and
basement outlets trip twice within the last year. I've reset it after
each trip and it seems to go another six months before it trips again.

What's the best way to determine if this is just a random event or
whether the GFCI is pointing toward a potential shock hazard?

--
Bobby G.




Refrigerators require their own dedicated circuit with no GFCI.


The Nec doesn't required dedicated circuit for a refrigerator

Kitchen receptacles require their own dedicated circuit/'s as well, They
need to be GFCI protected only if the receptacle is approximately five
feet
from a water source (sink).


The Nec requires ALL counter top and island receptacles to be gfci protected


The occasional tripping maybe to due to the fridge motor kicking on while
a
toaster or some other device is drawing power. Even a plug being pulled
quickly from a receptacle can arc and cause a trip of the GFCI.
Regardless,
your circuit configuration is not acceptable under the current electrical
codes.

You can buy inexpensive receptacle testers that will test a GFCI and other
receptacles for proper grounding. As long as the receptacle is properly
grounded, short circuits will go to ground and shock hazard will be
minimal.

Diagnosing electrical problems without looking at them is difficult as one
cannot determine the quality of the workmanship that went into the initial
wiring of the circuits.


Good Luck

"Robert Green" wrote in message
...
I've had a GFCI outlet that powers a refrigerator and some kitchen and
basement outlets trip twice within the last year. I've reset it after
each
trip and it seems to go another six months before it trips again.

What's the best way to determine if this is just a random event or whether
the GFCI is pointing toward a potential shock hazard?

--
Bobby G.


It doesn't take much of a ground fault to cause the device to trip. It's not
likely that you'll find it, if it only happens every six months. If the gfci
device is old, you may want to replace it with a newer model, which should
be more reliable

I've had a GFCI outlet that powers a refrigerator and some kitchen and
basement outlets trip twice within the last year. I've reset it after
each
trip and it seems to go another six months before it trips again.

What's the best way to determine if this is just a random event or whether
the GFCI is pointing toward a potential shock hazard?



*Just replace the GFCI receptacle. It the easiest and fastest way. The
newer models are less prone to nuisance tripping. If I had to bet I would
say the problem is with the refrigerator. Older models had lower standards
for ground fault leakage. However you do have your circuits spread out too
thin. The code requires two 20 amp circuits for kitchen receptacles and
nothing else to be connected to those circuits. You should separate the
basement from the kitchen.

"RBM" wrote in :

"Screed" wrote in message
...
"Robert Green" wrote in
:

I've had a GFCI outlet that powers a refrigerator and some kitchen
and basement outlets trip twice within the last year. I've reset it
after each trip and it seems to go another six months before it
trips again.

What's the best way to determine if this is just a random event or
whether the GFCI is pointing toward a potential shock hazard?

--
Bobby G.




Refrigerators require their own dedicated circuit with no GFCI.


The Nec doesn't required dedicated circuit for a refrigerator

Kitchen receptacles require their own dedicated circuit/'s as well,
They need to be GFCI protected only if the receptacle is
approximately five feet
from a water source (sink).


The Nec requires ALL counter top and island receptacles to be gfci
protected


The occasional tripping maybe to due to the fridge motor kicking on
while a
toaster or some other device is drawing power. Even a plug being
pulled quickly from a receptacle can arc and cause a trip of the
GFCI. Regardless,
your circuit configuration is not acceptable under the current
electrical codes.

You can buy inexpensive receptacle testers that will test a GFCI and
other receptacles for proper grounding. As long as the receptacle is
properly grounded, short circuits will go to ground and shock hazard
will be minimal.

Diagnosing electrical problems without looking at them is difficult
as one cannot determine the quality of the workmanship that went into
the initial wiring of the circuits.


Good Luck




I'm replying from Canada, our CEC (Canadian Electrical Code) differs in
those respects from the NEC I'm Guessing.


The CEC States - "each receptacle installed for a refrigerator shall be
supplied by a branch circuit that does not supply any other outlets....."

We only GFCI receptacles 1.5m or 4.921ft in any direction from sinks as
of yet.

We also require a deicated circuit for the microwave.

On Oct 15, 4:18*am, "Robert Green" wrote:
I've had a GFCI outlet that powers a refrigerator and some kitchen and
basement outlets trip twice within the last year. *I've reset it after each
trip and it seems to go another six months before it trips again.

What's the best way to determine if this is just a random event or whether
the GFCI is pointing toward a potential shock hazard?

--
Bobby G.

Suggestion? If you can wire the outlet into which the fridge is
plugged from the 'input' side of the GFCI rather than 'through' the
GFCI?
As others have said, GFCI not recommended for fridge or freezer. (Or
in fact many electric motor circuits).
BTW while the GFCI are designed to protect say a human from leakage
from a faulty appliance to ground, such as leaky electric lawn mower
or electric hedge trimmer etc. the name IS something of a misnomer.
The GFCI operates when there is an 'unbalance' between neutral and
live current. Older appliances or even new ones may have slight
leakage, but after all they are grounded and/or may have sufficient
unbalance as the motor starts to unbalance the two currents
momentarily.

ransley wrote:
On Oct 15, 1:18 am, "Robert Green" wrote:
I've had a GFCI outlet that powers a refrigerator and some kitchen and
basement outlets trip twice within the last year. I've reset it after each
trip and it seems to go another six months before it trips again.

What's the best way to determine if this is just a random event or whether
the GFCI is pointing toward a potential shock hazard?

--
Bobby G.

Gfci are not for a frige, if they trip the food is ruined, mine
tripped I removed it.

Commercial kitchens require plug-in refrigeration (15/20A 120V) to be
GFCI protected.

The exceptions to GFCI requirements that were in the NEC have virtually
all been removed. That includes a garage receptacle behind a refrigerator.

The arguments we
"The permitted leakage current for typical cord and plug connected
equipment is 0.5 ma. The trip range for GFCI protective devices is 4-6
ma. For this utilization equipment to trip the GFCI device, it would
have 8 to 12 times the leakage current permitted by the product standard."
"The present generation of GFCI devices do not have the problems of
'nuisance tripping' that plagued the earlier devices."

RBM and John have good advice.

--
bud--

On Oct 15, 1:18*am, "Robert Green" wrote:
I've had a GFCI outlet that powers a refrigerator and some kitchen and
basement outlets trip twice within the last year. *I've reset it after each
trip and it seems to go another six months before it trips again.

What's the best way to determine if this is just a random event or whether
the GFCI is pointing toward a potential shock hazard?

--
Bobby G.

Like others said, pull another branch circuit non-gfci for the fridge.

On Oct 15, 2:18*am, "Robert Green" wrote:
I've had a GFCI outlet that powers a refrigerator and some kitchen and
basement outlets trip twice within the last year. *I've reset it after each
trip and it seems to go another six months before it trips again.

What's the best way to determine if this is just a random event or whether
the GFCI is pointing toward a potential shock hazard?

--
Bobby G.

This is slightly off-topic for this thread, but I've always considered
the test button on a GFCI somewhat of a conundrum.

Here's my logic:

They say to test a GFCI once a month. Why? To see if the GFCI is still
working, right?

OK, but all the tester knows is whether or not the GFCI was or was not
working at that particular point in time. It could go bad instantly
afterwards - in fact, that test could have been the thing that ruined
it. How would you know? All you could do is test it again, but then
all you would know is whether the GFCI was or was not working at that
particular point in time.

In other words, testing a GFCI gives you no assurance that the GFCI
will operate properly when required. Yes, a failed test will tell you
that it won't work if required, but a passed test won't tell you that
it will.

"Screed" wrote in message
...
"Robert Green" wrote in
:

I've had a GFCI outlet that powers a refrigerator and some kitchen and
basement outlets trip twice within the last year. I've reset it after
each trip and it seems to go another six months before it trips again.

What's the best way to determine if this is just a random event or
whether the GFCI is pointing toward a potential shock hazard?

--
Bobby G.




Refrigerators require their own dedicated circuit with no GFCI.

That's probably the way it will end up as this is more or less a temporary
wiring setup. We discovered halfway through a recent rewire other, more
pressing problems when the basement plywood walls came down. Not an unusual
situation, from what I've read here about remodeling. Several expensive
mysteries were revealed that stalled the rewiring initiative. But I
digress.

Kitchen receptacles require their own dedicated circuit/'s as well, They
need to be GFCI protected only if the receptacle is approximately five
feet
from a water source (sink).

I'm no NECspert but I thought anywhere near water meant GFCIs are preferred
and that if you used them in drier locations, it was no harm/no foul. I got
my near-death lethal, burning skin, couldn't let go shock in my bedroom with
a Dr. Scholl's foot bath and massager. I reached for a swing arm, imitation
Luxo lamp and began to fry. A GFCI would have prevented that little mishap.
Had gravity not intervened, I would have died that day with a
foot-torso-heart-arm pathway for the shock that caused smoke to rise from my
burning feet. For some odd reason, even though I was completely paralyzed,
I still managed to fall out of the chair I was in and that broke my hand's
connection to the metal lamp handle. That's when I went a little GFCI crazy
and began installing them in all the household circuits as I upgraded from 2
wire to grounded service.

The occasional tripping maybe to due to the fridge motor kicking on while
a
toaster or some other device is drawing power. Even a plug being pulled
quickly from a receptacle can arc and cause a trip of the GFCI.
Regardless,
your circuit configuration is not acceptable under the current electrical
codes.

Hmmm. Well, something else was on the same circuit and probably did fire up
at the same time as the fridge. We've been having a lot of high winds and
"power blinks" and there was a small air compressor plugged into the 2nd
outlet of the duplex outlet that serves the fridge that I was using to blow
out the coils. The lower half of the refrigerator duplex outlet was the
nearest free outlet. They could have easily restarted within seconds of
each other.

I can certainly isolate the refrigerator on its own circuit and that seems
to be a prudent thing to do. This could have happened when no one was at
home.

You can buy inexpensive receptacle testers that will test a GFCI and other
receptacles for proper grounding. As long as the receptacle is properly
grounded, short circuits will go to ground and shock hazard will be
minimal.

Got one that had disappeared for nearly a year to reappear at the bottom of
the seasonal lights box. Will try that out today. Did that, and it says
nothing's wrong.

Diagnosing electrical problems without looking at them is difficult as one
cannot determine the quality of the workmanship that went into the initial
wiring of the circuits.

Well, I can assist you a little by describing materials, equipment and
techniques used.

o Metal boxes with screw-down clamps screwed into studs where possible - not
squirmy plastic that depend on the constant "springiness" of the plastic
material over time to hold cables tight,

o 12/2 Romex (why would you ever use 14/2 when wire is cheap and time is
not?),

o screwed, not backstabbed connections,

o outlets wrapped with real 3M electrical tape and not Wal*Mart's 10 rolls
for dollar crap,

o Leviton receptacles, breakers and GFCI's,

o "InSure" push-in wire connectors instead of wing nuts (referenced here by
M. Dufas in an earlier thread) because they are easy to use and inspect (but
not find locally!!):

http://www.idealindustries.com/prodD...-in&l2=in-sure

o Klein made in USA strippers, Triplet tong meter, GFCI tester, the 2008 NEC
pocket guide

o Five profusely illustrated home wiring DIY books that have paid for
themselves about 10 times over because a picture truly is worth 10,000 words
with skills like plumbing and electrical.

o 25 years of watching This Old House. Despite what many people say, there
isn't an episode where I haven't learned how to do at least one thing
better. Tommy Silva is the one I've learned the most from, and Bob Villa
the least. Sometimes it's something as simple as using a new blade every
three or four trim cuts on wallpaper or as complicated as chasing down
bizarre problems with hot water heating.

I only bring this up because just looking at my work in a photograph would
probably tell you about as much as what equipment I use or what questions I
ask does: and that's not enough to determine if my work was really any
good.

You'd have to pull stuff apart to determine true quality and workmanship.
Without close inspection, you couldn't tell whether there were any serious
nicks of the cable where it was stripped. You'd have to remove an outlet
and pull it apart AND tug on it to make sure a backstabbed outlet's claw
hadn't released its grip on the wire or become loose and corroded. Or that
I had stripped enough wire to even make a good connection. (Not really a
problem with my work because I don't backstab.) You'd at least have to
unwrap the electrical tape around the outlet to see if the end bends were
made correctly and were set firmly under the screw. You'd at least have to
twist the screw with a screwdriver to make sure it was tight. You'd have to
tug on all the wires under a wire nut to make sure they weren't making
intermittent contact (not a problem with the InSure connectors - they're
transparent so you can see if the wire's in right and tight) and so on and
so on.

I've been kind of amazed at what I've seen inspectors pass in some of the
houses I've lived in because things "looked neat" and wires weren't wrapped
in masking tape and hanging from rusty nails.

Any electrical work I do is always reviewed by at least a second pair of
eyes before it's ever inspected. That alone caught two or three mistakes
that would definitely have caused problems down the line. Around here once
an inspector thinks you're sloppy, it takes an awful lot to change his mind.
So I do things like making sure the screws on cover plates line up and that
the plates are plumb. I am not sure why, but growing up, my best friend's
dad was a electrician, and he did it that way, so I do too. Same with
wrapping an outlet in electrical tape. Some people say it's old-timer
nonsense, but I figure it can't hurt anything and might even help prevent a
short.

As far as code interpretation, I'll have to check with my local authority
having jurisdiction since his/hers is the only interpretation that matters.
(-:

Good Luck

Thanks. I think the plan is to move the fridge to its own dedicated line
that's still on a GFCI, but without any other loads on it. It's near enough
to the kitchen sink to be a concern and if it still trips, I will replace
it. If it still trips when a new GFCI's in place, I'll have to assume
there's an issue in the refrigerator wiring itself and try to determine
where the fault is. If that fails, and the refrigerator shows no obvious
faults, I'll eliminate the GFCI.

Fifty feet of Romex, another breaker and some fittings will likely be a lot
less costly than a freezer full of thawed-out food. I have an alarm on the
fridge to tell me when the unit has warmed beyond safe limits, but if no
one's in the house, it will just beep patiently while all the food spoils.
So far, the GFCI has NEVER tripped when no one was home. That tends to
support the "two incompatible devices on the same circuit" theory, I think.
The best way to test for that, is as you suggest, isolate the refrigerator
from all other appliances and outlets. Easiest, too!

Thanks for your input.

--
Bobby G.

DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Oct 15, 2:18 am, "Robert Green" wrote:
I've had a GFCI outlet that powers a refrigerator and some kitchen and
basement outlets trip twice within the last year. I've reset it after each
trip and it seems to go another six months before it trips again.

What's the best way to determine if this is just a random event or whether
the GFCI is pointing toward a potential shock hazard?

--
Bobby G.

This is slightly off-topic for this thread, but I've always considered
the test button on a GFCI somewhat of a conundrum.

Here's my logic:

They say to test a GFCI once a month. Why? To see if the GFCI is still
working, right?

OK, but all the tester knows is whether or not the GFCI was or was not
working at that particular point in time. It could go bad instantly
afterwards - in fact, that test could have been the thing that ruined
it. How would you know? All you could do is test it again, but then
all you would know is whether the GFCI was or was not working at that
particular point in time.

In other words, testing a GFCI gives you no assurance that the GFCI
will operate properly when required. Yes, a failed test will tell you
that it won't work if required, but a passed test won't tell you that
it will.

All medical tests (glaucoma, cholesterol, cancer, ...) are useless. They
don't tell you if you will have a problem tomorrow.

--
bud--

On Oct 15, 2:18*am, "Robert Green" wrote:
I've had a GFCI outlet that powers a refrigerator and some kitchen and
basement outlets trip twice within the last year. *I've reset it after each
trip and it seems to go another six months before it trips again.

What's the best way to determine if this is just a random event or whether
the GFCI is pointing toward a potential shock hazard?

--
Bobby G.

Take the fridge off the gfci. If you're lucky you can just move it
down one outlet and cover the remaining outlets.

On Oct 15, 2:08*pm, bud-- wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Oct 15, 2:18 am, "Robert Green" wrote:
I've had a GFCI outlet that powers a refrigerator and some kitchen and
basement outlets trip twice within the last year. *I've reset it after each
trip and it seems to go another six months before it trips again.

What's the best way to determine if this is just a random event or whether
the GFCI is pointing toward a potential shock hazard?

--
Bobby G.

This is slightly off-topic for this thread, but I've always considered
the test button on a GFCI somewhat of a conundrum.

Here's my logic:

They say to test a GFCI once a month. Why? To see if the GFCI is still
working, right?

OK, but all the tester knows is whether or not the GFCI was or was not
working at that particular point in time. It could go bad instantly
afterwards - in fact, that test could have been the thing that ruined
it. How would you know? All you could do is test it again, but then
all you would know is whether the GFCI was or was not working at that
particular point in time.

In other words, testing a GFCI gives you no assurance that the GFCI
will operate properly when required. Yes, a failed test will tell you
that it won't work if required, but a passed test won't tell you that
it will.

All medical tests (glaucoma, cholesterol, cancer, ...) are useless. They
don't tell you if you will have a problem tomorrow.

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"Useless" is your word, not mine, and given the examples you chose,
also wrong.

Similar to testing a GFCI, medical tests can certainly tell you if
something needs to be done *right now* - swap the known bad GFCI for a
hopefully good one, begin a medication regimen or diet change, etc.

In addition, certain medical tests can signal an upcoming problem. For
example, higher than normal glaucoma readings might signify a need
more frequent testing than a normal reading would. Higher than normal
cholesterol numbers might indicate the need for a change in diet or
even medication.

While a normal reading will certainly not mean that you will never get
sick, statistics show that if you have a normal reading and get tested
on a regular basis, problems can be usually be caught before they
become life (or sight) threatening.

However, a GFCI test doesn't have a "range". It's either going to pass
or fail. Failure tells you something useful...passing means nothing.
Failure tells you that you should change it right now…passing simply
means it probably would have worked if it was needed in the past.

That’s why I used the word conundrum, not useless.

"Screed" wrote in message
...
"RBM" wrote in :

"Screed" wrote in message
...
"Robert Green" wrote in
:

I've had a GFCI outlet that powers a refrigerator and some kitchen
and basement outlets trip twice within the last year. I've reset it
after each trip and it seems to go another six months before it
trips again.

What's the best way to determine if this is just a random event or
whether the GFCI is pointing toward a potential shock hazard?

--
Bobby G.




Refrigerators require their own dedicated circuit with no GFCI.


The Nec doesn't required dedicated circuit for a refrigerator

Kitchen receptacles require their own dedicated circuit/'s as well,
They need to be GFCI protected only if the receptacle is
approximately five feet
from a water source (sink).


The Nec requires ALL counter top and island receptacles to be gfci
protected


The occasional tripping maybe to due to the fridge motor kicking on
while a
toaster or some other device is drawing power. Even a plug being
pulled quickly from a receptacle can arc and cause a trip of the
GFCI. Regardless,
your circuit configuration is not acceptable under the current
electrical codes.

You can buy inexpensive receptacle testers that will test a GFCI and
other receptacles for proper grounding. As long as the receptacle is
properly grounded, short circuits will go to ground and shock hazard
will be minimal.

Diagnosing electrical problems without looking at them is difficult
as one cannot determine the quality of the workmanship that went into
the initial wiring of the circuits.


Good Luck




I'm replying from Canada, our CEC (Canadian Electrical Code) differs in
those respects from the NEC I'm Guessing.


The CEC States - "each receptacle installed for a refrigerator shall be
supplied by a branch circuit that does not supply any other outlets....."

We only GFCI receptacles 1.5m or 4.921ft in any direction from sinks as
of yet.

We also require a deicated circuit for the microwave.


Don't know where the op is from, or where you're from, so I'm just
specifying U.S. code

On Oct 15, 2:01*pm, "Robert Green" wrote:

"This could have happened when no one was at home."

I don't see how.

You said: "there was a small air compressor plugged into the 2nd
outlet of the duplex outlet that serves the fridge that I was using to
blow out the coils."

I don't see how anyone could have been using an air compressor to blow
out the coils if no one was home. g

On Thu, 15 Oct 2009 02:18:16 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

I've had a GFCI outlet that powers a refrigerator and some kitchen and
basement outlets trip twice within the last year. I've reset it after each
trip and it seems to go another six months before it trips again.

What's the best way to determine if this is just a random event or whether
the GFCI is pointing toward a potential shock hazard?


A GFCI doesn't make sense with refrigeration which I believe is an
exception. Purchase an electrical outlet tester (about $15) and/or
replace the GFCI.

Robert Green wrote:
"Screed" wrote in message
...
"Robert Green" wrote in
:

I've had a GFCI outlet that powers a refrigerator and some kitchen and
basement outlets trip twice within the last year. I've reset it after
each trip and it seems to go another six months before it trips again.

What's the best way to determine if this is just a random event or
whether the GFCI is pointing toward a potential shock hazard?

--
Bobby G.



Refrigerators require their own dedicated circuit with no GFCI.

In the US refrigerators do not require their own circuit and can be
placed on a GFCI.


That's probably the way it will end up as this is more or less a temporary
wiring setup. We discovered halfway through a recent rewire other, more
pressing problems when the basement plywood walls came down. Not an unusual
situation, from what I've read here about remodeling. Several expensive
mysteries were revealed that stalled the rewiring initiative. But I
digress.

Kitchen receptacles require their own dedicated circuit/'s as well, They
need to be GFCI protected only if the receptacle is approximately five
feet
from a water source (sink).

I'm no NECspert but I thought anywhere near water meant GFCIs are preferred
and that if you used them in drier locations, it was no harm/no foul.

As RBM(?) posted all kitchen counter top receptacles are required to be
on GFCIs (US). (Also required in some other locations - generally damp
related.) And can be used anywhere.

I got
my near-death lethal, burning skin, couldn't let go shock in my bedroom with
a Dr. Scholl's foot bath and massager. I reached for a swing arm, imitation
Luxo lamp and began to fry. A GFCI would have prevented that little mishap.
Had gravity not intervened, I would have died that day with a
foot-torso-heart-arm pathway for the shock that caused smoke to rise from my
burning feet. For some odd reason, even though I was completely paralyzed,
I still managed to fall out of the chair I was in and that broke my hand's
connection to the metal lamp handle. That's when I went a little GFCI crazy
and began installing them in all the household circuits as I upgraded from 2
wire to grounded service.

Scary. I never had that close a call.

The occasional tripping maybe to due to the fridge motor kicking on while
a
toaster or some other device is drawing power. Even a plug being pulled
quickly from a receptacle can arc and cause a trip of the GFCI.
Regardless,
your circuit configuration is not acceptable under the current electrical
codes.

The configuration is acceptable in the US except the circuit extends to
the basement. (It can extend to dining rooms and some other locations.)


Hmmm. Well, something else was on the same circuit and probably did fire up
at the same time as the fridge. We've been having a lot of high winds and
"power blinks" and there was a small air compressor plugged into the 2nd
outlet of the duplex outlet that serves the fridge that I was using to blow
out the coils. The lower half of the refrigerator duplex outlet was the
nearest free outlet. They could have easily restarted within seconds of
each other.

Producing an "overload" might trip a circuit breaker but won't trip a
GFCI. They only look for a current imbalance.

Older GFCIs were more prone to nuisance trip. I kinda forget - I think
several people suggested trying a new GFCI.

I can certainly isolate the refrigerator on its own circuit and that seems
to be a prudent thing to do. This could have happened when no one was at
home.

You can buy inexpensive receptacle testers that will test a GFCI and other
receptacles for proper grounding. As long as the receptacle is properly
grounded, short circuits will go to ground and shock hazard will be
minimal.

Got one that had disappeared for nearly a year to reappear at the bottom of
the seasonal lights box. Will try that out today. Did that, and it says
nothing's wrong.

If they indicate a problem there is very likely something wrong. If they
indicate OK the wiring is probably OK. But they can miss problems. In
particular, they can not check the the ground is good - they will
indicate good for a high resistance connection. Actually the same is
true for a high resistance hot or neutral connection, but you will see
the problem if you plug in a light.

...
o 25 years of watching This Old House. Despite what many people say, there
isn't an episode where I haven't learned how to do at least one thing
better. Tommy Silva is the one I've learned the most from, and Bob Villa
the least. Sometimes it's something as simple as using a new blade every
three or four trim cuts on wallpaper or as complicated as chasing down
bizarre problems with hot water heating.

I wish they had an electrician as good as the other regulars.

--
bud--

"RBM" wrote in message news:4ad6ffde$0$22526
stuff snipped
The Nec doesn't required dedicated circuit for a refrigerator
stuff snipped
The Nec requires ALL counter top and island receptacles to be gfci
protected

That's interesting and in line with what I thought to be true about
electrical requirements for my particular jurisdiction. Even though a
dedicated circuit is not required, I can certainly see the wisdom in putting
a "mission critical" device like a refrigerator on its own breaker so that
no other errant device can take it down.

Thanks for the input. I'm going to ask the local inspector what the county
wants in the way of GFCI's and dedicated circuits. He's the one that
matters most. I don't think it could hurt things to dedicate a line, but
what I really want to know now is whether there's any advantage to
protecting the refrigerator with a GFCI. It's close to the sink and it's
made at least partly of steel - it seems to be an "at risk" area. A lot
I've read about using GFCI's note that the newer units are far less likely
to nuisance trip than older models. Some also say that there are some
GFCI's designed to trip at a higher-than-normal current imbalance, but the
higher the trip level, the more of a shock gets through to pen closing the
circuit,

--
Bobby G.

"RBM" wrote in message news:4ad774e3$0$31278

Don't know where the op is from, or where you're from, so I'm just
specifying U.S. code

US near Washington, DC. The giant hole where all US citizens' tax dollars
shoot out of like an Eastern version of the Ol' Faithful geyser. (-:

I will probably end up following the CEC's recommendations, anyway, even
though the NEC governs here, simply because the Canadian rules happen to
make a lot of sense. I'm guessing that frequency of nuisance trips of a new
GFCI gets about as low as possible with only one appliance on that circuit.
It also seems that accidental trips for any reason are reduced by dedicating
a line to the breaker. My own experience backs that up. Two GFCI trips per
year with some other heavy-duty equipment on the same line as the fridge
suggests the refrigerator does not trip the GFCI itself.

The GFCI unit that trips about every six months is a Slater, not a Leviton,
it turns out. I've had it since GFCI's first arrived in the consumer
mainstream. It could easily be close to 25 years old which means a more
modern version might not even make those 2 nuisance trips a year even with
other gear on the line and the problem's solved!

I am going to swap the old unit out and the new 20A Leviton GFCI in its
place after I "dedicate" the line from the breaker to the refrigerator. I
just feel more comfortable with shock protection on the refrigerator and
accept that replacing a fridge worth of food is a possible consequence. It
just seems that possibly replacing frozen food is a better option in the
long run than finding yourself planning a funeral from a freak accident with
a funky fridge. What's that line from "Casino" - "You can have the money
AND the hammer?"

--
Bobby G.

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
On Oct 15, 2:01 pm, "Robert Green" wrote:

"This could have happened when no one was at home."

I don't see how.

You said: "there was a small air compressor plugged into the 2nd
outlet of the duplex outlet that serves the fridge that I was using to
blow out the coils."

I don't see how anyone could have been using an air compressor to blow
out the coils if no one was home. g

Quite simple, really. The air compressor's got a slow leak in the
quick-change hose valve (a cheapy Harbor Freight deal). When the unit loses
power for more than a few minutes, it's unable to top itself off and the
tank loses pressure.

When electricity is restored, the unit automatically comes on to bring the
tank pressure back up. It only takes the power being down long enough for
the tank's pressure sensor switch to trigger to cause the fridge and the
compressor motor to fire simultaneously. That all occurs without anyone
being present. When the tank reaches pressure, the compressor motor shuts
off. So it could be the dual starting or it could be the abrupt shutoff and
reverse EMF spike of the compressor while the GFCI is also under load from
the fridge to trip the GFCI.

--
Bobby G.

"ransley" wrote in message news:f1c0660e-a92d-4800-

stuff snipped

Gfci are not for a frige, if they trip the food is ruined, mine
tripped I removed it.

I hear you, and I am here trying to figure out what the various risks and
trade-offs are. Given the choice of taking a lethal shock or a freezer full
of spoiled food, I'll take the spoiled food every time. (-:

I can take some serious precautions to prevent nuisance tripping like a
dedicated line and a late-model GFCI. I'm also building a home automation
remote warning system using HomeVision that calls my cellphone if the fridge
goes outside of its temperature range or the alarm system detects a break
in. I'm hoping to eventually be able to answer the door intercom remotely
by having the home automation controller ring my cell whenever someone
presses the doorbell when I'm not home. It will also call if the basement
floods, the house goes too hot or cold, etc.

I may even decide to add a second, non-GFCI outlet so that if we're away
overnight or longer I can switch the fridge from a GFCI outlet to a standard
one. I've had nuisance trips, but they've been with a very old Slater 1st
generation GFCI on a non-dedicated circuit. Changing to a new GFCI and a
dedicated line should reduce those nuisance trips to near zero. Well,
that's the plan. Hopefully I won't have to post a follow-up that says "Mark
was right and I've got a freezer full of chum."

Thanks for your input,

--
Bobby G.

"Robert Green" wrote in message
...
"RBM" wrote in message news:4ad6ffde$0$22526
stuff snipped
The Nec doesn't required dedicated circuit for a refrigerator
stuff snipped
The Nec requires ALL counter top and island receptacles to be gfci
protected

That's interesting and in line with what I thought to be true about
electrical requirements for my particular jurisdiction. Even though a
dedicated circuit is not required, I can certainly see the wisdom in
putting
a "mission critical" device like a refrigerator on its own breaker so that
no other errant device can take it down.

Thanks for the input. I'm going to ask the local inspector what the
county
wants in the way of GFCI's and dedicated circuits. He's the one that
matters most. I don't think it could hurt things to dedicate a line, but
what I really want to know now is whether there's any advantage to
protecting the refrigerator with a GFCI. It's close to the sink and it's
made at least partly of steel - it seems to be an "at risk" area. A lot
I've read about using GFCI's note that the newer units are far less likely
to nuisance trip than older models. Some also say that there are some
GFCI's designed to trip at a higher-than-normal current imbalance, but the
higher the trip level, the more of a shock gets through to pen closing the
circuit,

--
Bobby G.


When I said that the Nec doesn't require a dedicated circuit for a fridge, I
didn't mean to imply that a dedicated circuit wasn't a good idea, or even
required by the refrigerator manufacturer. Nec is a minimum requirement. If
your fridge is in a kitchen, and the outlet is behind the fridge, gfci
protection is not required. If the circuit and outlet are properly grounded,
it will be perfectly safe, and not vulnerable to ground fault related
anomalies

"bud--" wrote in message

stuff snipped

In the US refrigerators do not require their own circuit and can be
placed on a GFCI.

Sorry to start a cross-border dispute! (-: I should have mentioned North
East US.

stuff snipped

As RBM(?) posted all kitchen counter top receptacles are required to be
on GFCIs (US). (Also required in some other locations - generally damp
related.) And can be used anywhere.

That was my understanding. Thank you for confirming it.

Details of near-death-by-footbath snipped

Scary. I never had that close a call.

It's a motivator. Bought two 250' rolls of 12/2 w/G and have been slowly
replacing 2 wire outlets and wires from the 1940's. Most importantly, I've
moved all the high current devices off the old wiring and left the old two
wire
outlets to serve things like 2 wire chargers, floor lamps and items that
never had grounds to begin with and that don't draw lots of current.

Turns out in an old Cape Cod that doing a rewire from the basement is a lot
easier than working with the old wires that went up to the attic and then
down throughout the house. Unfortunately, when we pulled down the poorly
refinished basement's ceiling and walls, the re-wiring effort was no longer
the top priority. For one thing there was a huge hole in the cinderblock
wall - it looked like someone had started tunneling out. Next time we buy a
house, we'll ask lots more questions if only 1 wall out of 4 in the basement
is panelled.

yet more stuff snipped

The configuration is acceptable in the US except the circuit extends to
the basement. (It can extend to dining rooms and some other locations.)

Yes, I knew when I crossed floors I was probably coloring outside the lines.
I did it in haste to at least temporarily protect both those areas with GFCI
I also tried to make sure that area was serviced by two different breakers
so I could still see if the GFCI tripped and took out the lamps on that
circuit. It's easy enough to rewire the correct way. Do you know the basis
for the rule? Is it that one breaker should not service two floors or that
one GFCI can't span floors or both?

info about two different compressors starting at the same time snipped'

Producing an "overload" might trip a circuit breaker but won't trip a
GFCI. They only look for a current imbalance.

What worried me is that there may be an underlying small ground current
leak - perhaps some insulation is degrading - and it only shows when the
GFCI warms up from carrying a larger than normal current and some capacitor
or resistor value shifts enough to make the imbalance detection circuitry
react differently. A while back Smarthome released new Insteon-brand
switches, and IIRC, they only exhibited flashing problems when the load on
the unit was beyond a certain limit. People with chandeliers and 300W
torchiers ran into serious problems with unwanted flickering and outright
flashing that users with small lamps (and probably most of Smarthome's beta
testers did not experience. I note that just to point out that devices can
behave quite differently under a heavy load than they do under a light one.

Older GFCIs were more prone to nuisance trip. I kinda forget - I think
several people suggested trying a new GFCI.

Yes, and that's underway as I noted elsehere. The unit in question is
perhaps a 25 year old Slater. I will swap it for a 2008 model Leviton.

stuff snipped about Triplett "Plug Bug 2" GFCI tester

If they indicate a problem there is very likely something wrong. If they
indicate OK the wiring is probably OK. But they can miss problems. In
particular, they can not check the the ground is good - they will
indicate good for a high resistance connection. Actually the same is
true for a high resistance hot or neutral connection, but you will see
the problem if you plug in a light.

No problems with any of the testers so far. Everything checks out. I am
pretty sure that this issue was caused by having other devices on the same
outlet. I'll be switching the fridge over to its own dedicated line later
this week and I'll also be switching out the older model Slater GFCI for a
newer Leviton 20A model. I'm hoping those two changes will eliminate the
nuisance tripping. If the problem occured more than once or twice a year,
I'd remove the GFCI entirely, but I'm reluctant to give up the protection it
ostensibly affords until it proves itself to be too troublesome to maintain.

25 years of watching This Old House. Despite what many people say,
there isn't an episode where I haven't learned how to do at least one
thing
better. Tommy Silva is the one I've learned the most from, and Bob Villa
the least. Sometimes it's something as simple as using a new blade
every three or four trim cuts on wallpaper or as complicated as chasing
down
bizarre problems with hot water heating.

I wish they had an electrician as good as the other regulars.

I agree. Still, they've taught me a lot. I wonder if they deliberately
chose not to focus on electrical work because of all the potential dangers.

Thanks for your input, Bud.

--
Bobby G.

On Oct 19, 10:01*am, "Robert Green"
wrote:
"bud--" wrote in message

stuff snipped

In the US refrigerators do not require their own circuit and can be
placed on a GFCI.

Sorry to start a cross-border dispute! (-: I should have mentioned North
East US.

stuff snipped

As RBM(?) posted all kitchen counter top receptacles are required to be
on GFCIs (US). (Also required in some other locations - generally damp
related.) And can be used anywhere.

That was my understanding. *Thank you for confirming it.

Details of near-death-by-footbath snipped

Scary. I never had that close a call.

It's a motivator. *Bought two 250' rolls of 12/2 w/G and have been slowly
replacing 2 wire outlets and wires from the 1940's. *Most importantly, I've
moved all the high current devices off the old wiring and left the old two
wire
outlets to serve things like 2 wire chargers, floor lamps and items that
never had grounds to begin with and that don't draw lots of current.

Turns out in an old Cape Cod that doing a rewire from the basement is a lot
easier than working with the old wires that went up to the attic and then
down throughout the house. *Unfortunately, when we pulled down the poorly
refinished basement's ceiling and walls, the re-wiring effort was no longer
the top priority. *For one thing there was a huge hole in the cinderblock
wall - it looked like someone had started tunneling out. *Next time we buy a
house, we'll ask lots more questions if only 1 wall out of 4 in the basement
is panelled.

yet more stuff snipped

The configuration is acceptable in the US except the circuit extends to
the basement. (It can extend to dining rooms and some other locations.)

Yes, I knew when I crossed floors I was probably coloring outside the lines.
I did it in haste to at least temporarily protect both those areas with GFCI
I also tried to make sure that area was serviced by two different breakers
so I could still see if the GFCI tripped and took out the lamps on that
circuit. *It's easy enough to rewire the correct way. *Do you know the basis
for the rule? *Is it that one breaker should not service two floors or that
one GFCI can't span floors or both?

info about two different compressors starting at the same time snipped'

Producing an "overload" might trip a circuit breaker but won't trip a
GFCI. They only look for a current imbalance.

What worried me is that there may be an underlying small ground current
leak - perhaps some insulation is degrading - and it only shows when the
GFCI warms up from carrying a larger than normal current and some capacitor
or resistor value shifts enough to make the imbalance detection circuitry
react differently. *A while back Smarthome released new Insteon-brand
switches, and IIRC, they only exhibited flashing problems when the load on
the unit was beyond a certain limit. *People with chandeliers and 300W
torchiers ran into serious problems with unwanted flickering and outright
flashing that users with small lamps (and probably most of Smarthome's beta
testers did not experience. *I note that just to point out that devices can
behave quite differently under a heavy load than they do under a light one.

Older GFCIs were more prone to nuisance trip. I kinda forget - I think
several people suggested trying a new GFCI.

Yes, and that's underway as I noted elsewhere. *The unit in question is
perhaps a 25 year old Slater. *I will swap it for a 2008 model Leviton.

stuff snipped about Triplett "Plug Bug 2" GFCI tester

If they indicate a problem there is very likely something wrong. If they
indicate OK the wiring is probably OK. But they can miss problems. In
particular, they can not check the the ground is good - they will
indicate good for a high resistance connection. Actually the same is
true for a high resistance hot or neutral connection, but you will see
the problem if you plug in a light.

No problems with any of the testers so far. *Everything checks out. *I am
pretty sure that this issue was caused by having other devices on the same
outlet. *I'll be switching the fridge over to its own dedicated line later
this week and I'll also be switching out the older model Slater GFCI for a
newer Leviton 20A model. *I'm hoping those two changes will eliminate the
nuisance tripping. *If the problem occured more than once or twice a year,
I'd remove the GFCI entirely, but I'm reluctant to give up the protection it
ostensibly affords until it proves itself to be too troublesome to maintain.



25 years of watching This Old House. *Despite what many people say,
there isn't an episode where I haven't learned how to do at least one
thing
better. *Tommy Silva is the one I've learned the most from, and Bob Villa
the least. *Sometimes it's something as simple as using a new blade
every three or four trim cuts on wallpaper or as complicated as chasing
down
bizarre problems with hot water heating.
I wish they had an electrician as good as the other regulars.

I agree. *Still, they've taught me a lot. *I wonder if they deliberately
chose not to focus on electrical work because of all the potential dangers.

Thanks for your input, Bud.

--
Bobby G.

Hey thanks for the reminder. 'A GFCI not crossing floors'. However I
prefer the idea of a GFCI being in a weather protected environment!

For example: We have an outlet low down outside front door in a rugged
weather resistant box, fed with conduit that runs under the front
step. It's been there some 35+ years and is convenient and useful for
Christmas lights etc.

But would prefer to have the GFCI on it in the basement from which it
is fed! Rather than outside in the weather and beyond that old conduit
under the concrete front step. There is occasioanlly snow build up in
that area.

Welcome any comments/advice. However if necessary (or safer) the
outside outlet might/could be eliminated. TIA

On Oct 17, 1:17*am, "Robert Green" wrote:
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message

...
On Oct 15, 2:01 pm, "Robert Green" wrote:

"This could have happened when no one was at home."

I don't see how.

You said: "there was a small air compressor plugged into the 2nd
outlet of the duplex outlet that serves the fridge that I was using to
blow out the coils."

I don't see how anyone could have been using an air compressor to blow
out the coils if no one was home. g

Quite simple, really. *The air compressor's got a slow leak in the
quick-change hose valve (a cheapy Harbor Freight deal). *When the unit loses
power for more than a few minutes, it's unable to top itself off and the
tank loses pressure.

When electricity is restored, the unit automatically comes on to bring the
tank pressure back up. *It only takes the power being down long enough for
the tank's pressure sensor switch to trigger to cause the fridge and the
compressor motor to fire simultaneously. *That all occurs without anyone
being present. *When the tank reaches pressure, the compressor motor shuts
off. *So it could be the dual starting or it could be the abrupt shutoff and
reverse EMF spike of the compressor while the GFCI is also under load from
the fridge to trip the GFCI.

--
Bobby G.

You missed the point of my "joke".

I was pointing out the fact that *no one could be using the compressor
to blow out the coils* if no one was home.

Sure, the compressor could have been plugged in to the GFCI when no
one was home and sure, both the compressor and the fridge could have
turned on at the same time when no one was home, but nobody could have
been using the compressor to blow out the coils if no one was home.
g

g = grin

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
news:c9cef1c3-4fd4-4e53-

stuff snipped

You missed the point of my "joke".

Don't fret. I miss the point of most jokes made in newsgroups. It's not
you.

I was pointing out the fact that *no one could be using the compressor
to blow out the coils* if no one was home.

Depends. My little JRT loves the air compressor. Based on how frantic she
gets when I am using it, I'd say she likes it even more than chasing
squirrels. Since she's figured out how to unlock her crate, how to shoulder
a heavy file cabinet so she could get to her lost nylabone and how to open
the refrigerator, I wouldn't be surprised to find out she's learned how to
operate the compressor nozzle some day. You try telling her she's no one.

--
Bobby G.

"bud--" wrote in message
...
ransley wrote:
On Oct 15, 1:18 am, "Robert Green" wrote:
I've had a GFCI outlet that powers a refrigerator and some kitchen and
basement outlets trip twice within the last year. I've reset it after
each
trip and it seems to go another six months before it trips again.

What's the best way to determine if this is just a random event or
whether
the GFCI is pointing toward a potential shock hazard?

--
Bobby G.

Gfci are not for a frige, if they trip the food is ruined, mine
tripped I removed it.

Commercial kitchens require plug-in refrigeration (15/20A 120V) to be
GFCI protected.

The exceptions to GFCI requirements that were in the NEC have virtually
all been removed. That includes a garage receptacle behind a refrigerator.

The arguments we
"The permitted leakage current for typical cord and plug connected
equipment is 0.5 ma. The trip range for GFCI protective devices is 4-6
ma. For this utilization equipment to trip the GFCI device, it would
have 8 to 12 times the leakage current permitted by the product standard."
"The present generation of GFCI devices do not have the problems of
'nuisance tripping' that plagued the earlier devices."

RBM and John have good advice.

--
bud--

Sorry I missed this and a few others on the first read through. New
newserver.

That's a good point about current leakage rates. If the unit still trips
with nothing else on the circuit AND a new model GFCI in place, then I am
going to begin checking out the refrigerator with an ammeter* to see if
there really is a current leak. At that point I'd be willing to believe
it's not simply a nuisance trip, but an indication of a problem. Hopefully
I'll remember to switch the fridge to a non-GFCI outlet when we're away. If
there's a ground fault when no one is home, that's not as bad as a meltdown
of all our food.

*(Why that spelling and not ampmeter, I've always wondered?)

--
Bobby G.

"RBM" wrote in message news:4ad9a5ed$0$4973

stuff snipped

When I said that the Nec doesn't require a dedicated circuit for a fridge,
I
didn't mean to imply that a dedicated circuit wasn't a good idea, or even
required by the refrigerator manufacturer. Nec is a minimum requirement.

Understood. If the Canadians think a dedicated line is a good idea, I
assume they've got reasons based on experience. There are lots of good
reasons to dedicate a line, like making it easier to supply just that device
with a generator or not having to shut it off to service any other devices
on that circuit. It's so cheap and easy that it's almost crazy NOT to do
it.

If your fridge is in a kitchen, and the outlet is behind the fridge, gfci
protection is not required. If the circuit and outlet are properly
grounded,
it will be perfectly safe, and not vulnerable to ground fault related
anomalies

Why does having the outlet blocked have anything to do with it? Not sure I
follow that reasoning.

Isn't the whole purpose of having something like a GFCI to act as a "last
line of defense" in case something very unlikely occurs like a cord getting
frayed and passing power to the metal case? Even a little current leakage
might be enough to kill someone. From what I recall, it doesn't take much
current, if delivered across the heart, to cause death. I would think if
there was no real protective value that the NEC would say so, instead of
appearing to gradually bring GFCI's into the code in nearly all
circumstances.

Now arc-fault interrupters seem to be a more contentious case. The folks I
know that have installed them report they are plagued with nuisance
tripping. I wonder if it's just another case of it taking time for the
manufacturers to fine tune the product?

--
Bobby G.

On Oct 21, 5:56*am, "Robert Green" wrote:
"bud--" wrote in message

...





ransley wrote:
On Oct 15, 1:18 am, "Robert Green" wrote:
I've had a GFCI outlet that powers a refrigerator and some kitchen and
basement outlets trip twice within the last year. *I've reset it after
each
trip and it seems to go another six months before it trips again.

What's the best way to determine if this is just a random event or
whether
the GFCI is pointing toward a potential shock hazard?

--
Bobby G.

Gfci are not for a frige, if they trip the food is ruined, mine
tripped I removed it.

Commercial kitchens require plug-in refrigeration (15/20A 120V) to be
GFCI protected.

The exceptions to GFCI requirements that were in the NEC have virtually
all been removed. That includes a garage receptacle behind a refrigerator.

The arguments we
"The permitted leakage current for typical cord and plug connected
equipment is 0.5 ma. The trip range for GFCI protective devices is 4-6
ma. For this utilization equipment to trip the GFCI device, it would
have 8 to 12 times the leakage current permitted by the product standard."
"The present generation of GFCI devices do not have the problems of
'nuisance tripping' that plagued the earlier devices."

RBM and John have good advice.

--
bud--

Sorry I missed this and a few others on the first read through. New
newserver.

That's a good point about current leakage rates. *If the unit still trips
with nothing else on the circuit AND a new model GFCI in place, then I am
going to begin checking out the refrigerator with an ammeter* to see if
there really is a current leak. *At that point I'd be willing to believe
it's not simply a nuisance trip, but an indication of a problem. *Hopefully
I'll remember to switch the fridge to a non-GFCI outlet when we're away. *If
there's a ground fault when no one is home, that's not as bad as a meltdown
of all our food.

*(Why that spelling and not ampmeter, I've always wondered?)

--
Bobby G.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Good question but how/why do many other units get adopted/used.
Is not 'Volt' named after the researcher Volta?
Another example is the Bel (or more commonly the Deci-bel = one tenth
of a Bel). Or more commonly and colloquially as Dbs. ("dee-bees").
Named after Alexander Graham Bell!
I think 'watt' and 'ohm' are unshortened?
Just a thought.

Robert Green wrote:
"RBM" wrote in message news:4ad9a5ed$0$4973

stuff snipped

When I said that the Nec doesn't require a dedicated circuit for a fridge,
I
didn't mean to imply that a dedicated circuit wasn't a good idea, or even
required by the refrigerator manufacturer. Nec is a minimum requirement.

Understood. If the Canadians think a dedicated line is a good idea, I
assume they've got reasons based on experience. There are lots of good
reasons to dedicate a line, like making it easier to supply just that device
with a generator or not having to shut it off to service any other devices
on that circuit. It's so cheap and easy that it's almost crazy NOT to do
it.

If your fridge is in a kitchen, and the outlet is behind the fridge, gfci
protection is not required. If the circuit and outlet are properly
grounded,
it will be perfectly safe, and not vulnerable to ground fault related
anomalies

Why does having the outlet blocked have anything to do with it? Not sure I
follow that reasoning.

Kitchen countertop receptacles have to be GFCI protected. A receptacle
behind a refrigerator is not a countertop receptacle.

Isn't the whole purpose of having something like a GFCI to act as a "last
line of defense" in case something very unlikely occurs like a cord getting
frayed and passing power to the metal case? Even a little current leakage
might be enough to kill someone.

The requirement for commercial kitchens to have refrigeration on GFCI
receptacles was because people were getting shocks. (Homes probably have
greater care taken of equipment.)


Now arc-fault interrupters seem to be a more contentious case. The folks I
know that have installed them report they are plagued with nuisance
tripping. I wonder if it's just another case of it taking time for the
manufacturers to fine tune the product?

Starting 2008 much more sensitive AFCIs were required. The old ones
detected a 75A arc (and would only detect an arc from H-N or H-G).
Starting 2009 they have to detect a 5A arc (and can detect a loose
arcing connection). I would think detecting a 5A arc without tripping on
normal arcs (like turning off a switch) would be a real challenge.
At the same time (IMHO a dumb idea) they were required for far more
areas of a house.

I haven't heard about major nuisance trips. Have other people?

--
bud--

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
news:ccbb7393-f6bf-46a3-

stuff snipped

However, a GFCI test doesn't have a "range". It's either going to pass
or fail. Failure tells you something useful...passing means nothing.
Failure tells you that you should change it right now…passing simply
means it probably would have worked if it was needed in the past.

While the tester is certainly a binary, pass-fail event, nuisance tripping
may actually be the GFCI detecting a growing irregularity of some kind.
Cords fray slowly and corrosion is no jack rabbit, either. That's my
"current" conundrum - deciding whether the nuisance tripping is really just
a spurious event or a signal that there's an unhealthy interaction between
electrical components that should be run to ground. I guess I've worried
myself enough to stop grousing about it and read up about detecting current
leaks in appliances.

As a X-10 home automation user, I've learned the the household wiring is
truly a network. Plug-in devices can interact very strongly with each other
in some very annoying ways. In my case the bad interactions appear as
ground loops and degraded X-10 signal strength.

--
Bobby G.

"terry" wrote in message
news:2fc66247-2712-4d44-a429-

stuff snipped

Hey thanks for the reminder. 'A GFCI not crossing floors'. However I
prefer the idea of a GFCI being in a weather protected environment!

For example: We have an outlet low down outside front door in a rugged
weather resistant box, fed with conduit that runs under the front
step. It's been there some 35+ years and is convenient and useful for
Christmas lights etc.

But would prefer to have the GFCI on it in the basement from which it
is fed! Rather than outside in the weather and beyond that old conduit
under the concrete front step. There is occasioanlly snow build up in
that area.

While I'm *definitely* no code expert, I'd agree with you, out of common
sense, to try to keep the "controlling" GFCI outlet inside and a much
simpler standard outlet outside. That's how I wired my outside outlet. The
GFCI controlling it also runs the radial arm saw and it's mounted inside.
Not sure if that's code, but the likelihood of my operating the saw and
anything else outside at the same time is very remote. The power to the
outlet is also controlled by X-10, so I can turn it on and off from anywhere
in the house.

The GFCI should have a temperature range rating. It could be very possible
that operating it when it's too cold could compromise its protection
capabilities. I'd be more worried that you've got it in a bad place with
regards to potential immersion. When I searched for guidance in the NEC,
all I found was a maximum outlet height limit, which I thought peculiar
since they didn't give a minimum one, which I thought would be more
important.

If I recall my outdoor box, it was set up for a standard duplex outlet and
wouldn't even accommodate a GFCI because they are typically in the Decora
style because of the need to access the "Test" and "Reset" button. Look
outside - the decision to use an indoor GFCI may already have been made for
you! (-:

Then there's the issue of resetting. You may not want to trudge inside and
out to keep resetting the unit. There's a lot to be said for local control
in these cases. Part of the reason I'm rewiring the fridge to its own GFCI
is because I want the reset button right near the protected unit as I have a
"blown out" knee (I think that's the proper medical term) and going up and
down the stairs isn't much fun at the moment.

--
Bobby G.

"terry" wrote in message
news:b38c0972-f220-46a1-8139-

stuff snipped

*(Why that spelling and not ampmeter, I've always wondered?)

--
Bobby G.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Good question but how/why do many other units get adopted/used.
Is not 'Volt' named after the researcher Volta?
Another example is the Bel (or more commonly the Deci-bel = one tenth
of a Bel). Or more commonly and colloquially as Dbs. ("dee-bees").
Named after Alexander Graham Bell!
I think 'watt' and 'ohm' are unshortened?
Just a thought.

How about that poor CPS abbreviation, getting sacked and replaced buy Hz. I
can just hear it gloating: "Hertz, donut!"

It sounded funnier rattling around in my brain, I swear! - I was going to
say it must have stung like a hit in the family joules . . .

1000 aches = kilohurtz
What is it that's black, charred and smouldering and hangs from a light
socket? An DIY electrician trying to change a light bulb!

Diode - What everyone hopes they'll do

Somebody, pull the plug on me!

Who's old enough here to remember that TV show with the meter, "Queen
Faraday?"

The problem with bad electrical puns is that anyone conduit.

1012 bulls = 1 terabull - what these puns are!


100 buckets of bits on the buss,
100 buckets of bits,
Take one down, short it to ground,
99 buckets of bits on the buss.

OK, I'm tapped, I've run out of Gauss.

--
Bobby G.