As you know I am working on wiring a detached garage/shop. I am a
newbie. I have attached a link to my work thus far. I am having a
little trouble figuring out how to route everything. Any helpful
advice is appreciated.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42254706@N03/

stryped wrote:
As you know I am working on wiring a detached garage/shop. I am a
newbie. I have attached a link to my work thus far. I am having a
little trouble figuring out how to route everything. Any helpful
advice is appreciated.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42254706@N03/

IANAE, but I don't think it's permissible per the NEC to have
unsupported cable spanning across roof struts. Also, some localities
may not permit exposed NM cable less than 7 feet above the floor.
Around here it is customary to install drywall over stud bays with wires
inside.

stryped wrote:
As you know I am working on wiring a detached garage/shop. I am a
newbie. I have attached a link to my work thus far. I am having a
little trouble figuring out how to route everything. Any helpful
advice is appreciated.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42254706@N03/


Put messenger boards (fancy name for 1x3's) under the cables that run
unsupported perpendicular to the ceiling joists.

Bob

On Sep 7, 7:34*pm, stryped wrote:
As you know I am working on wiring a detached garage/shop. I am a
newbie. I have attached a link to my work thus far. I am having a
little trouble figuring out how to route everything. Any helpful
advice is appreciated.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42254706@N03/

Where I am, the standard for romex in a garage is that it has to be
run so that "you couldn't hang a coat hanger from it". Clearly you
don't meet that standard, and we usually use conduit in garages. I
guess the bottom line is that the romex running around the corner and
also across the two trusses would be easily susceptible to damage in a
garage.

JK

On Sep 7, 8:34*pm, stryped wrote:
As you know I am working on wiring a detached garage/shop. I am a
newbie. I have attached a link to my work thus far. I am having a
little trouble figuring out how to route everything. Any helpful
advice is appreciated.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42254706@N03/

Just a point to keep in mind...

Your lights should be a circuit of their own so that no power tool can
trip them.

It sucks trying figure out what to do with that 4 x 8 sheet when the
table saw trips the breaker and the whole room goes dark.

"stryped" wrote in message
...
As you know I am working on wiring a detached garage/shop. I am a
newbie. I have attached a link to my work thus far. I am having a
little trouble figuring out how to route everything. Any helpful
advice is appreciated.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42254706@N03/


*I usually use metal boxes in garages due to the firewall requirement. You
should not install your wiring devices until after the drywall is installed.
The routing of the cable seems fine except that Romex cannot extend over
four feet without being supported. If the space above the ceiling is going
to be an accessible attic space you will need to install running boards
along side of your cables. Throw in a couple of nailplates in the corners
to protect the cable from nails.

I see that you are using 12/2 for lighting. It sounds like overkill. Did
you actually figure out what your lighting load is going to be? There is no
need for a GFCI circuit breaker for your outdoor lighting however your
garage receptacles are required to be GFCI protected including the one on
the ceiling. A GFCI receptacle is cheaper than a GFCI circuit breaker and
can protect receptacles downstream.

Since you seem to be using all 12/2 be mindful of the cubic inch capacity of
your boxes. Each wiring device uses the equivalent of two conductors and
must be considered when calculating your total number of wires in a box.

Since this probably a subpanel your ground wires in the circuit breaker
panel need to go onto the ground bar and not the neutral bar. Grounds and
neutrals are kept separate in a subpanel. You will need to run four
conductors to feed your subpanel. Remove the green bonding screw from the
neutral bar. I think that a main breaker is required in the panel for this
installation, but I would need to look it up to be sure. If that two pole
breaker in the lower left is going to be your main it will need to be held
down with a screw or clamp. Check the panel labeling for the part number
for this.

On Sep 8, 6:52*am, "John Grabowski" wrote:
"stryped" wrote in message

...

As you know I am working on wiring a detached garage/shop. I am a
newbie. I have attached a link to my work thus far. I am having a
little trouble figuring out how to route everything. Any helpful
advice is appreciated.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42254706@N03/

*I usually use metal boxes in garages due to the firewall requirement. *You
should not install your wiring devices until after the drywall is installed.
The routing of the cable seems fine except that Romex cannot extend over
four feet without being supported. *If the space above the ceiling is going
to be an accessible attic space you will need to install running boards
along side of your cables. *Throw in a couple of nailplates in the corners
to protect the cable from nails.

I see that you are using 12/2 for lighting. *It sounds like overkill. *Did
you actually figure out what your lighting load is going to be? *There is no
need for a GFCI circuit breaker for your outdoor lighting however your
garage receptacles are required to be GFCI protected including the one on
the ceiling. *A GFCI receptacle is cheaper than a GFCI circuit breaker and
can protect receptacles downstream.

Since you seem to be using all 12/2 be mindful of the cubic inch capacity of
your boxes. *Each wiring device uses the equivalent of two conductors and
must be considered when calculating your total number of wires in a box.

Since this probably a subpanel your ground wires in the circuit breaker
panel need to go onto the ground bar and not the neutral bar. *Grounds and
neutrals are kept separate in a subpanel. *You will need to run four
conductors to feed your subpanel. *Remove the green bonding screw from the
neutral bar. *I think that a main breaker is required in the panel for this
installation, but I would need to look it up to be sure. *If that two pole
breaker in the lower left is going to be your main it will need to be held
down with a screw or clamp. *Check the panel labeling for the part number
for this.

My panel is "upside down" The instructions said to mount it this way
if the panel will be "bottom fed". Which mine will. SO the ground buss
is on the left and the neutral bus is on the right.

On Sep 7, 11:11*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sep 7, 8:34*pm, stryped wrote:

As you know I am working on wiring a detached garage/shop. I am a
newbie. I have attached a link to my work thus far. I am having a
little trouble figuring out how to route everything. Any helpful
advice is appreciated.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42254706@N03/

Just a point to keep in mind...

Your lights should be a circuit of their own so that no power tool can
trip them.

It sucks trying figure out what to do with that 4 x 8 sheet when the
table saw trips the breaker and the whole room goes dark.

My 11 outlets are in one 20 amp circuit. My lights will be on 2
separate 20 amp circuits. It is probably overkill but my thinking was
if the GFCI tripped for one set of lights the other would stay on. (I
have 10 plug in "shop lights" in the ceiling. Since they have to have
outlets, they must be GFCI protected.

I have one 20 amp circuit for the back 6 lights, one 20 amp circuit
for the front 4 lights and also on the circuit will be one or two
outside flood lights.

Should I rethink this?

As you know I am working on wiring a detached garage/shop. I am a
newbie. I have attached a link to my work thus far. I am having a
little trouble figuring out how to route everything. Any helpful
advice is appreciated.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42254706@N03/

*I usually use metal boxes in garages due to the firewall requirement. You
should not install your wiring devices until after the drywall is
installed.
The routing of the cable seems fine except that Romex cannot extend over
four feet without being supported. If the space above the ceiling is going
to be an accessible attic space you will need to install running boards
along side of your cables. Throw in a couple of nailplates in the corners
to protect the cable from nails.

I see that you are using 12/2 for lighting. It sounds like overkill. Did
you actually figure out what your lighting load is going to be? There is
no
need for a GFCI circuit breaker for your outdoor lighting however your
garage receptacles are required to be GFCI protected including the one on
the ceiling. A GFCI receptacle is cheaper than a GFCI circuit breaker and
can protect receptacles downstream.

Since you seem to be using all 12/2 be mindful of the cubic inch capacity
of
your boxes. Each wiring device uses the equivalent of two conductors and
must be considered when calculating your total number of wires in a box.

Since this probably a subpanel your ground wires in the circuit breaker
panel need to go onto the ground bar and not the neutral bar. Grounds and
neutrals are kept separate in a subpanel. You will need to run four
conductors to feed your subpanel. Remove the green bonding screw from the
neutral bar. I think that a main breaker is required in the panel for this
installation, but I would need to look it up to be sure. If that two pole
breaker in the lower left is going to be your main it will need to be held
down with a screw or clamp. Check the panel labeling for the part number
for this.

My panel is "upside down" The instructions said to mount it this way
if the panel will be "bottom fed". Which mine will. SO the ground buss
is on the left and the neutral bus is on the right.



*The neutral buss is on each side and you currently have your ground wires
connected to the left side neutral bar. You are supposed to connect each
neutral below the corresponding circuit breaker for easy identification.
The ground bar is that small little screw terminal strip on the left set
back from the neutral bar. You can probably install at least two wires under
each screw on the ground bar which is why it is so small. The panel
labeling will tell you the number of wires per screw allowed. The label may
also have a diagram of the interior of the panel confirming the neutral bar
on each side.

Please tell me that you will be having this work inspected.

"stryped" wrote in message
...
On Sep 7, 11:11 pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sep 7, 8:34 pm, stryped wrote:

As you know I am working on wiring a detached garage/shop. I am a
newbie. I have attached a link to my work thus far. I am having a
little trouble figuring out how to route everything. Any helpful
advice is appreciated.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42254706@N03/

Just a point to keep in mind...

Your lights should be a circuit of their own so that no power tool can
trip them.

It sucks trying figure out what to do with that 4 x 8 sheet when the
table saw trips the breaker and the whole room goes dark.

My 11 outlets are in one 20 amp circuit. My lights will be on 2
separate 20 amp circuits. It is probably overkill but my thinking was
if the GFCI tripped for one set of lights the other would stay on. (I
have 10 plug in "shop lights" in the ceiling. Since they have to have
outlets, they must be GFCI protected.

I have one 20 amp circuit for the back 6 lights, one 20 amp circuit
for the front 4 lights and also on the circuit will be one or two
outside flood lights.

Should I rethink this?


*I think that you should. You have more power for lighting than for
equipment. Do you really need to use plug in light fixtures? You didn't
say what you are planning to do in this space, but I would have put in
several circuits for the outlets.

On Sep 8, 2:25*pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:
As you know I am working on wiring a detached garage/shop. I am a
newbie. I have attached a link to my work thus far. I am having a
little trouble figuring out how to route everything. Any helpful
advice is appreciated.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42254706@N03/

*I usually use metal boxes in garages due to the firewall requirement. You
should not install your wiring devices until after the drywall is
installed.
The routing of the cable seems fine except that Romex cannot extend over
four feet without being supported. If the space above the ceiling is going
to be an accessible attic space you will need to install running boards
along side of your cables. Throw in a couple of nailplates in the corners
to protect the cable from nails.

I see that you are using 12/2 for lighting. It sounds like overkill. Did
you actually figure out what your lighting load is going to be? There is
no
need for a GFCI circuit breaker for your outdoor lighting however your
garage receptacles are required to be GFCI protected including the one on
the ceiling. A GFCI receptacle is cheaper than a GFCI circuit breaker and
can protect receptacles downstream.

Since you seem to be using all 12/2 be mindful of the cubic inch capacity
of
your boxes. Each wiring device uses the equivalent of two conductors and
must be considered when calculating your total number of wires in a box..

Since this probably a subpanel your ground wires in the circuit breaker
panel need to go onto the ground bar and not the neutral bar. Grounds and
neutrals are kept separate in a subpanel. You will need to run four
conductors to feed your subpanel. Remove the green bonding screw from the
neutral bar. I think that a main breaker is required in the panel for this
installation, but I would need to look it up to be sure. If that two pole
breaker in the lower left is going to be your main it will need to be held
down with a screw or clamp. Check the panel labeling for the part number
for this.

My panel is "upside down" The instructions said to mount it this way
if the panel will be "bottom fed". Which mine will. SO the ground buss
is on the left and the neutral bus is on the right.

*The neutral buss is on each side and you currently have your ground wires
connected to the left side neutral bar. You are supposed to connect each
neutral below the corresponding circuit breaker for easy identification.
The ground bar is that small little screw terminal strip on the left set
back from the neutral bar. You can probably install at least two wires under
each screw on the ground bar which is why it is so small. *The panel
labeling will tell you the number of wires per screw allowed. *The label may
also have a diagram of the interior of the panel confirming the neutral bar
on each side.

Please tell me that you will be having this work inspected.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I will double check but the bank on the right says "neutral" and the
one on the left says "ground". I plan on using this as a garage and
hobby shop. I was told I could have a maximum of 13 outlets on one
circuit so I figured 11 was ok. I figured it would be rare to run more
than one thing at a time.

On Sep 8, 8:47*am, stryped wrote:
On Sep 7, 11:11*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:





On Sep 7, 8:34*pm, stryped wrote:

As you know I am working on wiring a detached garage/shop. I am a
newbie. I have attached a link to my work thus far. I am having a
little trouble figuring out how to route everything. Any helpful
advice is appreciated.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42254706@N03/

Just a point to keep in mind...

Your lights should be a circuit of their own so that no power tool can
trip them.

It sucks trying figure out what to do with that 4 x 8 sheet when the
table saw trips the breaker and the whole room goes dark.

My 11 outlets are in one 20 amp circuit. My lights will be on 2
separate 20 amp circuits. It is probably overkill but my thinking was
if the GFCI tripped for one set of lights the other would stay on. (I
have 10 plug in "shop lights" in the ceiling. Since they have to have
outlets, they must be GFCI protected.

I have one 20 amp circuit for the back 6 lights, one 20 amp circuit
for the front 4 lights and also on the circuit will be one or two
outside flood lights.

Should I rethink this?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Two 20 amp circuits and their required 12 g wire certainly seems like
overkill for a bunch of plug in light fixtures.

"if the GFCI tripped for one set of lights the other would stay
on"

I'd choose wired fixtures (or rewire the one's you've bought) and
eliminate the GFCI from ever being an issue.

Wait, I take that back. Since just about every post in this thread has
pointed out something that someone doesn't like, maybe you should
consider putting down the wire cutters and stepping back from this
project for a bit.

It certainly appears that you haven't submitted any plans for this
wiring to the powers that be (maybe you don't have to in your locale)
but since there seems to be a number of questionable things being
discussed here, it might be time to look for help locally (and
professionally) and not through a DIY forum.

Now hold on...I'm not "that guy" that says "Call a contractor"
everytime someone asks for help, but since we are talking about a
fairly large electrical installation here, don't you think it should
be done correctly - to the utmost detail - in to ensure that you and
yours are safe?

"stryped" wrote in message
...
On Sep 8, 2:25 pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:
As you know I am working on wiring a detached garage/shop. I am a
newbie. I have attached a link to my work thus far. I am having a
little trouble figuring out how to route everything. Any helpful
advice is appreciated.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42254706@N03/

*I usually use metal boxes in garages due to the firewall requirement.
You
should not install your wiring devices until after the drywall is
installed.
The routing of the cable seems fine except that Romex cannot extend over
four feet without being supported. If the space above the ceiling is
going
to be an accessible attic space you will need to install running boards
along side of your cables. Throw in a couple of nailplates in the
corners
to protect the cable from nails.

I see that you are using 12/2 for lighting. It sounds like overkill. Did
you actually figure out what your lighting load is going to be? There is
no
need for a GFCI circuit breaker for your outdoor lighting however your
garage receptacles are required to be GFCI protected including the one
on
the ceiling. A GFCI receptacle is cheaper than a GFCI circuit breaker
and
can protect receptacles downstream.

Since you seem to be using all 12/2 be mindful of the cubic inch
capacity
of
your boxes. Each wiring device uses the equivalent of two conductors and
must be considered when calculating your total number of wires in a box.

Since this probably a subpanel your ground wires in the circuit breaker
panel need to go onto the ground bar and not the neutral bar. Grounds
and
neutrals are kept separate in a subpanel. You will need to run four
conductors to feed your subpanel. Remove the green bonding screw from
the
neutral bar. I think that a main breaker is required in the panel for
this
installation, but I would need to look it up to be sure. If that two
pole
breaker in the lower left is going to be your main it will need to be
held
down with a screw or clamp. Check the panel labeling for the part number
for this.

My panel is "upside down" The instructions said to mount it this way
if the panel will be "bottom fed". Which mine will. SO the ground buss
is on the left and the neutral bus is on the right.

*The neutral buss is on each side and you currently have your ground wires
connected to the left side neutral bar. You are supposed to connect each
neutral below the corresponding circuit breaker for easy identification.
The ground bar is that small little screw terminal strip on the left set
back from the neutral bar. You can probably install at least two wires
under
each screw on the ground bar which is why it is so small. The panel
labeling will tell you the number of wires per screw allowed. The label
may
also have a diagram of the interior of the panel confirming the neutral
bar
on each side.

Please tell me that you will be having this work inspected.- Hide quoted
text -

- Show quoted text -

I will double check but the bank on the right says "neutral" and the
one on the left says "ground". I plan on using this as a garage and
hobby shop. I was told I could have a maximum of 13 outlets on one
circuit so I figured 11 was ok. I figured it would be rare to run more
than one thing at a time.


Sounds like your adviser is mistaking commercial outlet requirements for
residential outlet requirements. There is no minimum or maximum amount of
outlets per circuit. As John Grabowski points out, there is something
peculiar about the neutral buss. I recognize the panel as a GE brand, and
there should be a bridge connecting the two neutral busses, which I don't
see.

On Sep 8, 3:53*pm, "RBM" wrote:
"stryped" wrote in message

...
On Sep 8, 2:25 pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:





As you know I am working on wiring a detached garage/shop. I am a
newbie. I have attached a link to my work thus far. I am having a
little trouble figuring out how to route everything. Any helpful
advice is appreciated.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42254706@N03/

*I usually use metal boxes in garages due to the firewall requirement..
You
should not install your wiring devices until after the drywall is
installed.
The routing of the cable seems fine except that Romex cannot extend over
four feet without being supported. If the space above the ceiling is
going
to be an accessible attic space you will need to install running boards
along side of your cables. Throw in a couple of nailplates in the
corners
to protect the cable from nails.

I see that you are using 12/2 for lighting. It sounds like overkill. Did
you actually figure out what your lighting load is going to be? There is
no
need for a GFCI circuit breaker for your outdoor lighting however your
garage receptacles are required to be GFCI protected including the one
on
the ceiling. A GFCI receptacle is cheaper than a GFCI circuit breaker
and
can protect receptacles downstream.

Since you seem to be using all 12/2 be mindful of the cubic inch
capacity
of
your boxes. Each wiring device uses the equivalent of two conductors and
must be considered when calculating your total number of wires in a box.

Since this probably a subpanel your ground wires in the circuit breaker
panel need to go onto the ground bar and not the neutral bar. Grounds
and
neutrals are kept separate in a subpanel. You will need to run four
conductors to feed your subpanel. Remove the green bonding screw from
the
neutral bar. I think that a main breaker is required in the panel for
this
installation, but I would need to look it up to be sure. If that two
pole
breaker in the lower left is going to be your main it will need to be
held
down with a screw or clamp. Check the panel labeling for the part number
for this.

My panel is "upside down" The instructions said to mount it this way
if the panel will be "bottom fed". Which mine will. SO the ground buss
is on the left and the neutral bus is on the right.

*The neutral buss is on each side and you currently have your ground wires
connected to the left side neutral bar. You are supposed to connect each
neutral below the corresponding circuit breaker for easy identification..
The ground bar is that small little screw terminal strip on the left set
back from the neutral bar. You can probably install at least two wires
under
each screw on the ground bar which is why it is so small. The panel
labeling will tell you the number of wires per screw allowed. The label
may
also have a diagram of the interior of the panel confirming the neutral
bar
on each side.

Please tell me that you will be having this work inspected.- Hide quoted
text -

- Show quoted text -

I will double check but the bank on the right says "neutral" and the
one on the left says "ground". I plan on using this as a garage and
hobby shop. I was told I could have a maximum of 13 outlets on one
circuit so I figured 11 was ok. I figured it would be rare to run more
than one thing at a time.

Sounds like your adviser is mistaking commercial outlet requirements for
residential outlet requirements. There is no minimum or maximum amount of
outlets per circuit. As John Grabowski points out, there is something
peculiar about the neutral buss. I recognize the panel as a GE brand, and
there should be a bridge connecting the two neutral busses, which I don't
see.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The person that advised me was the electrical inspector. He said to
figure 1.5 amps per outlet. 1.5 x 13 = 19.5 amps. (all mine are 20 amp
circuts.

i will double check when I get home but I really belive I only have
one neutral buss and the other is ground. This is a 100 amp GE panel
with 100 amp main breaker. Bought at Lowes.

"stryped" wrote in message
...
On Sep 8, 3:53 pm, "RBM" wrote:
"stryped" wrote in message

...
On Sep 8, 2:25 pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:





As you know I am working on wiring a detached garage/shop. I am a
newbie. I have attached a link to my work thus far. I am having a
little trouble figuring out how to route everything. Any helpful
advice is appreciated.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42254706@N03/

*I usually use metal boxes in garages due to the firewall requirement.
You
should not install your wiring devices until after the drywall is
installed.
The routing of the cable seems fine except that Romex cannot extend
over
four feet without being supported. If the space above the ceiling is
going
to be an accessible attic space you will need to install running
boards
along side of your cables. Throw in a couple of nailplates in the
corners
to protect the cable from nails.

I see that you are using 12/2 for lighting. It sounds like overkill.
Did
you actually figure out what your lighting load is going to be? There
is
no
need for a GFCI circuit breaker for your outdoor lighting however your
garage receptacles are required to be GFCI protected including the one
on
the ceiling. A GFCI receptacle is cheaper than a GFCI circuit breaker
and
can protect receptacles downstream.

Since you seem to be using all 12/2 be mindful of the cubic inch
capacity
of
your boxes. Each wiring device uses the equivalent of two conductors
and
must be considered when calculating your total number of wires in a
box.

Since this probably a subpanel your ground wires in the circuit
breaker
panel need to go onto the ground bar and not the neutral bar. Grounds
and
neutrals are kept separate in a subpanel. You will need to run four
conductors to feed your subpanel. Remove the green bonding screw from
the
neutral bar. I think that a main breaker is required in the panel for
this
installation, but I would need to look it up to be sure. If that two
pole
breaker in the lower left is going to be your main it will need to be
held
down with a screw or clamp. Check the panel labeling for the part
number
for this.

My panel is "upside down" The instructions said to mount it this way
if the panel will be "bottom fed". Which mine will. SO the ground buss
is on the left and the neutral bus is on the right.

*The neutral buss is on each side and you currently have your ground
wires
connected to the left side neutral bar. You are supposed to connect each
neutral below the corresponding circuit breaker for easy identification.
The ground bar is that small little screw terminal strip on the left set
back from the neutral bar. You can probably install at least two wires
under
each screw on the ground bar which is why it is so small. The panel
labeling will tell you the number of wires per screw allowed. The label
may
also have a diagram of the interior of the panel confirming the neutral
bar
on each side.

Please tell me that you will be having this work inspected.- Hide quoted
text -

- Show quoted text -

I will double check but the bank on the right says "neutral" and the
one on the left says "ground". I plan on using this as a garage and
hobby shop. I was told I could have a maximum of 13 outlets on one
circuit so I figured 11 was ok. I figured it would be rare to run more
than one thing at a time.

Sounds like your adviser is mistaking commercial outlet requirements for
residential outlet requirements. There is no minimum or maximum amount of
outlets per circuit. As John Grabowski points out, there is something
peculiar about the neutral buss. I recognize the panel as a GE brand, and
there should be a bridge connecting the two neutral busses, which I don't
see.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The person that advised me was the electrical inspector. He said to
figure 1.5 amps per outlet. 1.5 x 13 = 19.5 amps. (all mine are 20 amp
circuts.

i will double check when I get home but I really belive I only have
one neutral buss and the other is ground. This is a 100 amp GE panel
with 100 amp main breaker. Bought at Lowes.

It would be odd, for the panel to be built with a ground buss off to the
side, as yours is, and another ground "only" buss set on insulators, as
yours is. As I said, that panel comes with a bridge, that connects both
sides of the neutral buss together. It's entirely possible that it was
tampered with. Your electrical inspectors recommendation of figuring 1.5
amps per receptacle is fine, and I would figure fewer outlets per circuit in
your situation, however that is a commercial calculation, not residential.

"RBM" wrote in message
...

"stryped" wrote in message
...
On Sep 8, 3:53 pm, "RBM" wrote:
"stryped" wrote in message

...
On Sep 8, 2:25 pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:





As you know I am working on wiring a detached garage/shop. I am a
newbie. I have attached a link to my work thus far. I am having a
little trouble figuring out how to route everything. Any helpful
advice is appreciated.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42254706@N03/

*I usually use metal boxes in garages due to the firewall
requirement.
You
should not install your wiring devices until after the drywall is
installed.
The routing of the cable seems fine except that Romex cannot extend
over
four feet without being supported. If the space above the ceiling is
going
to be an accessible attic space you will need to install running
boards
along side of your cables. Throw in a couple of nailplates in the
corners
to protect the cable from nails.

I see that you are using 12/2 for lighting. It sounds like overkill.
Did
you actually figure out what your lighting load is going to be? There
is
no
need for a GFCI circuit breaker for your outdoor lighting however
your
garage receptacles are required to be GFCI protected including the
one
on
the ceiling. A GFCI receptacle is cheaper than a GFCI circuit breaker
and
can protect receptacles downstream.

Since you seem to be using all 12/2 be mindful of the cubic inch
capacity
of
your boxes. Each wiring device uses the equivalent of two conductors
and
must be considered when calculating your total number of wires in a
box.

Since this probably a subpanel your ground wires in the circuit
breaker
panel need to go onto the ground bar and not the neutral bar. Grounds
and
neutrals are kept separate in a subpanel. You will need to run four
conductors to feed your subpanel. Remove the green bonding screw from
the
neutral bar. I think that a main breaker is required in the panel for
this
installation, but I would need to look it up to be sure. If that two
pole
breaker in the lower left is going to be your main it will need to be
held
down with a screw or clamp. Check the panel labeling for the part
number
for this.

My panel is "upside down" The instructions said to mount it this way
if the panel will be "bottom fed". Which mine will. SO the ground buss
is on the left and the neutral bus is on the right.

*The neutral buss is on each side and you currently have your ground
wires
connected to the left side neutral bar. You are supposed to connect
each
neutral below the corresponding circuit breaker for easy
identification.
The ground bar is that small little screw terminal strip on the left
set
back from the neutral bar. You can probably install at least two wires
under
each screw on the ground bar which is why it is so small. The panel
labeling will tell you the number of wires per screw allowed. The label
may
also have a diagram of the interior of the panel confirming the neutral
bar
on each side.

Please tell me that you will be having this work inspected.- Hide
quoted
text -

- Show quoted text -

I will double check but the bank on the right says "neutral" and the
one on the left says "ground". I plan on using this as a garage and
hobby shop. I was told I could have a maximum of 13 outlets on one
circuit so I figured 11 was ok. I figured it would be rare to run more
than one thing at a time.

Sounds like your adviser is mistaking commercial outlet requirements for
residential outlet requirements. There is no minimum or maximum amount of
outlets per circuit. As John Grabowski points out, there is something
peculiar about the neutral buss. I recognize the panel as a GE brand, and
there should be a bridge connecting the two neutral busses, which I don't
see.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The person that advised me was the electrical inspector. He said to
figure 1.5 amps per outlet. 1.5 x 13 = 19.5 amps. (all mine are 20 amp
circuts.

i will double check when I get home but I really belive I only have
one neutral buss and the other is ground. This is a 100 amp GE panel
with 100 amp main breaker. Bought at Lowes.

It would be odd, for the panel to be built with a ground buss off to the
side, as yours is, and another ground "only" buss set on insulators, as
yours is. As I said, that panel comes with a bridge, that connects both
sides of the neutral buss together. It's entirely possible that it was
tampered with. Your electrical inspectors recommendation of figuring 1.5
amps per receptacle is fine, and I would figure fewer outlets per circuit
in your situation, however that is a commercial calculation, not
residential.

RBM,

I know you are an expert on this stuff. When I am reading any threads on
this forum that involve electricity, I always look for your replies to see
what the real answer is. I also know that I am NOT an expert on any of
this, and I have just been trying to learn what I can over the past few
months.

But, I did just recently have two panels put in that are now subpanels, but
which eventually will become main panels when I have new electric service
put in. What I ended up doing was buy two main panels but set them up as
sub panels for now. The main panels did come with a bridge that connects
both sides of the neutral buss together. But there were instructions that
said the main panel could be used as a sub panel by first taking out the
bridge, and then tightening down a screw all the way on one of the busses
that is on insulators so that buss will then be bonded to the panel itself.
That made that buss a ground buss, while the other buss remained as a
neutral buss that is mounted on insulators and is not bonded to the panel.
According to the instructions, the other way to do this would be what you
said -- both neutrals are insulated from the panel box and connected
together with the bar in place, and then a separate grounding bar is added
and mounted to the panel box. With this second option, the screw I
mentioned earlier is left NOT tightened down, and that buss remains
insulated from the panel box.

So, as far as I can tell, the panels are set up to allow either approach to
be used when using that main panel as a sub panel. And, I think the OP may
have his panel set up like the first option (with one buss bonded to the
panel box and used as a ground buss, and the other buss remaining insulated
and used as a neutral buss), and no bar would be in place connecting the two
busses together.

"JayTKR" wrote in message
...

"RBM" wrote in message
...

"stryped" wrote in message
...
On Sep 8, 3:53 pm, "RBM" wrote:
"stryped" wrote in message

...
On Sep 8, 2:25 pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:





As you know I am working on wiring a detached garage/shop. I am a
newbie. I have attached a link to my work thus far. I am having a
little trouble figuring out how to route everything. Any helpful
advice is appreciated.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42254706@N03/

*I usually use metal boxes in garages due to the firewall
requirement.
You
should not install your wiring devices until after the drywall is
installed.
The routing of the cable seems fine except that Romex cannot extend
over
four feet without being supported. If the space above the ceiling is
going
to be an accessible attic space you will need to install running
boards
along side of your cables. Throw in a couple of nailplates in the
corners
to protect the cable from nails.

I see that you are using 12/2 for lighting. It sounds like overkill.
Did
you actually figure out what your lighting load is going to be?
There is
no
need for a GFCI circuit breaker for your outdoor lighting however
your
garage receptacles are required to be GFCI protected including the
one
on
the ceiling. A GFCI receptacle is cheaper than a GFCI circuit
breaker
and
can protect receptacles downstream.

Since you seem to be using all 12/2 be mindful of the cubic inch
capacity
of
your boxes. Each wiring device uses the equivalent of two conductors
and
must be considered when calculating your total number of wires in a
box.

Since this probably a subpanel your ground wires in the circuit
breaker
panel need to go onto the ground bar and not the neutral bar.
Grounds
and
neutrals are kept separate in a subpanel. You will need to run four
conductors to feed your subpanel. Remove the green bonding screw
from
the
neutral bar. I think that a main breaker is required in the panel
for
this
installation, but I would need to look it up to be sure. If that two
pole
breaker in the lower left is going to be your main it will need to
be
held
down with a screw or clamp. Check the panel labeling for the part
number
for this.

My panel is "upside down" The instructions said to mount it this way
if the panel will be "bottom fed". Which mine will. SO the ground buss
is on the left and the neutral bus is on the right.

*The neutral buss is on each side and you currently have your ground
wires
connected to the left side neutral bar. You are supposed to connect
each
neutral below the corresponding circuit breaker for easy
identification.
The ground bar is that small little screw terminal strip on the left
set
back from the neutral bar. You can probably install at least two wires
under
each screw on the ground bar which is why it is so small. The panel
labeling will tell you the number of wires per screw allowed. The
label
may
also have a diagram of the interior of the panel confirming the
neutral
bar
on each side.

Please tell me that you will be having this work inspected.- Hide
quoted
text -

- Show quoted text -

I will double check but the bank on the right says "neutral" and the
one on the left says "ground". I plan on using this as a garage and
hobby shop. I was told I could have a maximum of 13 outlets on one
circuit so I figured 11 was ok. I figured it would be rare to run more
than one thing at a time.

Sounds like your adviser is mistaking commercial outlet requirements for
residential outlet requirements. There is no minimum or maximum amount
of
outlets per circuit. As John Grabowski points out, there is something
peculiar about the neutral buss. I recognize the panel as a GE brand,
and
there should be a bridge connecting the two neutral busses, which I
don't
see.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The person that advised me was the electrical inspector. He said to
figure 1.5 amps per outlet. 1.5 x 13 = 19.5 amps. (all mine are 20 amp
circuts.

i will double check when I get home but I really belive I only have
one neutral buss and the other is ground. This is a 100 amp GE panel
with 100 amp main breaker. Bought at Lowes.

It would be odd, for the panel to be built with a ground buss off to the
side, as yours is, and another ground "only" buss set on insulators, as
yours is. As I said, that panel comes with a bridge, that connects both
sides of the neutral buss together. It's entirely possible that it was
tampered with. Your electrical inspectors recommendation of figuring 1.5
amps per receptacle is fine, and I would figure fewer outlets per circuit
in your situation, however that is a commercial calculation, not
residential.

RBM,

I know you are an expert on this stuff. When I am reading any threads on
this forum that involve electricity, I always look for your replies to see
what the real answer is. I also know that I am NOT an expert on any of
this, and I have just been trying to learn what I can over the past few
months.

But, I did just recently have two panels put in that are now subpanels,
but which eventually will become main panels when I have new electric
service put in. What I ended up doing was buy two main panels but set
them up as sub panels for now. The main panels did come with a bridge
that connects both sides of the neutral buss together. But there were
instructions that said the main panel could be used as a sub panel by
first taking out the bridge, and then tightening down a screw all the way
on one of the busses that is on insulators so that buss will then be
bonded to the panel itself. That made that buss a ground buss, while the
other buss remained as a neutral buss that is mounted on insulators and is
not bonded to the panel. According to the instructions, the other way to
do this would be what you said -- both neutrals are insulated from the
panel box and connected together with the bar in place, and then a
separate grounding bar is added and mounted to the panel box. With this
second option, the screw I mentioned earlier is left NOT tightened down,
and that buss remains insulated from the panel box.

So, as far as I can tell, the panels are set up to allow either approach
to be used when using that main panel as a sub panel. And, I think the OP
may have his panel set up like the first option (with one buss bonded to
the panel box and used as a ground buss, and the other buss remaining
insulated and used as a neutral buss), and no bar would be in place
connecting the two busses together.

Thank you for the compliment. There are a number of very sharp folks on this
newsgroup, and in all honesty, I come here to learn. To your point, you are
absolutely correct. I've done exactly what you describe on numerous
occasions. In this case, it appears that the "grounding" buss came installed
in the panel, in which case I would have left the neutral buss alone, and I
didn't get the impression that the OP was the one that removed the bridge.

As you know I am working on wiring a detached garage/shop. I am a
newbie. I have attached a link to my work thus far. I am having a
little trouble figuring out how to route everything. Any helpful
advice is appreciated.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42254706@N03/

*I usually use metal boxes in garages due to the firewall
requirement.
You
should not install your wiring devices until after the drywall is
installed.
The routing of the cable seems fine except that Romex cannot extend
over
four feet without being supported. If the space above the ceiling is
going
to be an accessible attic space you will need to install running
boards
along side of your cables. Throw in a couple of nailplates in the
corners
to protect the cable from nails.

I see that you are using 12/2 for lighting. It sounds like overkill.
Did
you actually figure out what your lighting load is going to be? There
is
no
need for a GFCI circuit breaker for your outdoor lighting however
your
garage receptacles are required to be GFCI protected including the
one
on
the ceiling. A GFCI receptacle is cheaper than a GFCI circuit breaker
and
can protect receptacles downstream.

Since you seem to be using all 12/2 be mindful of the cubic inch
capacity
of
your boxes. Each wiring device uses the equivalent of two conductors
and
must be considered when calculating your total number of wires in a
box.

Since this probably a subpanel your ground wires in the circuit
breaker
panel need to go onto the ground bar and not the neutral bar. Grounds
and
neutrals are kept separate in a subpanel. You will need to run four
conductors to feed your subpanel. Remove the green bonding screw from
the
neutral bar. I think that a main breaker is required in the panel for
this
installation, but I would need to look it up to be sure. If that two
pole
breaker in the lower left is going to be your main it will need to be
held
down with a screw or clamp. Check the panel labeling for the part
number
for this.

My panel is "upside down" The instructions said to mount it this way
if the panel will be "bottom fed". Which mine will. SO the ground buss
is on the left and the neutral bus is on the right.

*The neutral buss is on each side and you currently have your ground
wires
connected to the left side neutral bar. You are supposed to connect
each
neutral below the corresponding circuit breaker for easy
identification.
The ground bar is that small little screw terminal strip on the left
set
back from the neutral bar. You can probably install at least two wires
under
each screw on the ground bar which is why it is so small. The panel
labeling will tell you the number of wires per screw allowed. The label
may
also have a diagram of the interior of the panel confirming the neutral
bar
on each side.

Please tell me that you will be having this work inspected.- Hide
quoted
text -

- Show quoted text -

I will double check but the bank on the right says "neutral" and the
one on the left says "ground". I plan on using this as a garage and
hobby shop. I was told I could have a maximum of 13 outlets on one
circuit so I figured 11 was ok. I figured it would be rare to run more
than one thing at a time.

Sounds like your adviser is mistaking commercial outlet requirements for
residential outlet requirements. There is no minimum or maximum amount of
outlets per circuit. As John Grabowski points out, there is something
peculiar about the neutral buss. I recognize the panel as a GE brand, and
there should be a bridge connecting the two neutral busses, which I don't
see.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The person that advised me was the electrical inspector. He said to
figure 1.5 amps per outlet. 1.5 x 13 = 19.5 amps. (all mine are 20 amp
circuts.

i will double check when I get home but I really belive I only have
one neutral buss and the other is ground. This is a 100 amp GE panel
with 100 amp main breaker. Bought at Lowes.

It would be odd, for the panel to be built with a ground buss off to the
side, as yours is, and another ground "only" buss set on insulators, as
yours is. As I said, that panel comes with a bridge, that connects both
sides of the neutral buss together. It's entirely possible that it was
tampered with. Your electrical inspectors recommendation of figuring 1.5
amps per receptacle is fine, and I would figure fewer outlets per circuit
in your situation, however that is a commercial calculation, not
residential.


*Roy I looked again at the photo and I noticed this before and thought it
odd, but now it makes sense. There are two lugs on the right neutral bar
and one on the left neutral bar. There may have been an accessory piece for
the installer to connect the two bars, but the OP left it off. Or maybe a
piece of wire is to be used if the neutral bar on both sides was needed. In
that case the OP is correct in using the left side as a ground bar and the
green screw should be installed. I've used the GE panels before and have
never seen this. Maybe it is something new. This probably is a 12/24 panel
that can also be used for service entrance hence the reason for being
convertible.

On Sep 8, 6:15*pm, "RBM" wrote:
"JayTKR" wrote in message

...







"RBM" wrote in message
...

"stryped" wrote in message
....
On Sep 8, 3:53 pm, "RBM" wrote:
"stryped" wrote in message

....
On Sep 8, 2:25 pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:

As you know I am working on wiring a detached garage/shop. I am a
newbie. I have attached a link to my work thus far. I am having a
little trouble figuring out how to route everything. Any helpful
advice is appreciated.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42254706@N03/

*I usually use metal boxes in garages due to the firewall
requirement.
You
should not install your wiring devices until after the drywall is
installed.
The routing of the cable seems fine except that Romex cannot extend
over
four feet without being supported. If the space above the ceiling is
going
to be an accessible attic space you will need to install running
boards
along side of your cables. Throw in a couple of nailplates in the
corners
to protect the cable from nails.

I see that you are using 12/2 for lighting. It sounds like overkill.
Did
you actually figure out what your lighting load is going to be?
There is
no
need for a GFCI circuit breaker for your outdoor lighting however
your
garage receptacles are required to be GFCI protected including the
one
on
the ceiling. A GFCI receptacle is cheaper than a GFCI circuit
breaker
and
can protect receptacles downstream.

Since you seem to be using all 12/2 be mindful of the cubic inch
capacity
of
your boxes. Each wiring device uses the equivalent of two conductors
and
must be considered when calculating your total number of wires in a
box.

Since this probably a subpanel your ground wires in the circuit
breaker
panel need to go onto the ground bar and not the neutral bar.
Grounds
and
neutrals are kept separate in a subpanel. You will need to run four
conductors to feed your subpanel. Remove the green bonding screw
from
the
neutral bar. I think that a main breaker is required in the panel
for
this
installation, but I would need to look it up to be sure. If that two
pole
breaker in the lower left is going to be your main it will need to
be
held
down with a screw or clamp. Check the panel labeling for the part
number
for this.

My panel is "upside down" The instructions said to mount it this way
if the panel will be "bottom fed". Which mine will. SO the ground buss
is on the left and the neutral bus is on the right.

*The neutral buss is on each side and you currently have your ground
wires
connected to the left side neutral bar. You are supposed to connect
each
neutral below the corresponding circuit breaker for easy
identification.
The ground bar is that small little screw terminal strip on the left
set
back from the neutral bar. You can probably install at least two wires
under
each screw on the ground bar which is why it is so small. The panel
labeling will tell you the number of wires per screw allowed. The
label
may
also have a diagram of the interior of the panel confirming the
neutral
bar
on each side.

Please tell me that you will be having this work inspected.- Hide
quoted
text -

- Show quoted text -

I will double check but the bank on the right says "neutral" and the
one on the left says "ground". I plan on using this as a garage and
hobby shop. I was told I could have a maximum of 13 outlets on one
circuit so I figured 11 was ok. I figured it would be rare to run more
than one thing at a time.

Sounds like your adviser is mistaking commercial outlet requirements for
residential outlet requirements. There is no minimum or maximum amount
of
outlets per circuit. As John Grabowski points out, there is something
peculiar about the neutral buss. I recognize the panel as a GE brand,
and
there should be a bridge connecting the two neutral busses, which I
don't
see.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The person that advised me was the electrical inspector. He said to
figure 1.5 amps per outlet. 1.5 x 13 = 19.5 amps. (all mine are 20 amp
circuts.

i will double check when I get home but I really belive I only have
one neutral buss and the other is ground. This is a 100 amp GE panel
with 100 amp main breaker. Bought at Lowes.

It would be odd, for the panel to be built with a ground buss off to the
side, as yours is, and another ground "only" buss set on insulators, as
yours is. As I said, that panel comes with a bridge, that connects both
sides of the neutral buss together. It's entirely possible that it was
tampered with. Your electrical inspectors recommendation of figuring 1..5
amps per receptacle is fine, and I would figure fewer outlets per circuit
in your situation, however that is a commercial calculation, not
residential.

RBM,

I know you are an expert on this stuff. *When I am reading any threads on
this forum that involve electricity, I always look for your replies to see
what the real answer is. *I also know that I am NOT an expert on any of
this, and I have just been trying to learn what I can over the past few
months.

But, I did just recently have two panels put in that are now subpanels,
but which eventually will become main panels when I have new electric
service put in. *What I ended up doing was buy two main panels but set
them up as sub panels for now. *The main panels did come with a bridge
that connects both sides of the neutral buss together. *But there were
instructions that said the main panel could be used as a sub panel by
first taking out the bridge, and then tightening down a screw all the way
on one of the busses that is on insulators so that buss will then be
bonded to the panel itself. That made that buss a ground buss, while the
other buss remained as a neutral buss that is mounted on insulators and is
not bonded to the panel. According to the instructions, the other way to
do this would be what you said -- both neutrals are insulated from the
panel box and connected together with the bar in place, and then a
separate grounding bar is added and mounted to the panel box. *With this
second option, the screw I mentioned earlier is left NOT tightened down,
and that buss remains insulated from the panel box.

So, as far as I can tell, the panels are set up to allow either approach
to be used when using that main panel as a sub panel. *And, I think the OP
may have his panel set up like the first option (with one buss bonded to
the panel box and used as a ground buss, and the other buss remaining
insulated and used as a neutral buss), and no bar would be in place
connecting the two busses together.

Thank you for the compliment. There are a number of very sharp folks on this
newsgroup, and in all honesty, I come here to learn. To your point, you are
absolutely correct. I've done exactly what you describe on numerous
occasions. In this case, it appears that the "grounding" buss came installed
in the panel, in which case I would have left the neutral buss alone, and I
didn't get the impression that the OP was the one that removed the bridge..- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I verified tonight what the panel said. Left says 'grounding strap",
right says "neutral strap". usint a continuity meter, left bank has
continuity to the enclosure. Netral strap on the right does not.

Instructions call that little bar to the very left "addition"
grounding connections.

By the way, I plan on having 2 240 volt circuits, one for an air
compressor one for a lincol welder "buz box". I was going to make the
compressor a 30 amp circuit with 20-3 wire and the welder a 50 amp
circuit with 6 guage. Does it matter if I have bothe these breakers on
the same buss as the 100 amp main breaker or would that be bad
practice to have alot of voltage on one bank compred to the other?

Also, do I need to have these outlets a certain distance from the
overhead garage door? I would like ot place them as close as I can so
I can reach outside with them if I need to,.

stryped wrote:
On Sep 8, 6:15 pm, "RBM" wrote:
"JayTKR" wrote in message

...







"RBM" wrote in message
...
"stryped" wrote in message
...
On Sep 8, 3:53 pm, "RBM" wrote:
"stryped" wrote in message
...
On Sep 8, 2:25 pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:
As you know I am working on wiring a detached garage/shop. I am a
newbie. I have attached a link to my work thus far. I am having a
little trouble figuring out how to route everything. Any helpful
advice is appreciated.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/42254706@N03/
*I usually use metal boxes in garages due to the firewall
requirement.
You
should not install your wiring devices until after the drywall is
installed.
The routing of the cable seems fine except that Romex cannot extend
over
four feet without being supported. If the space above the ceiling is
going
to be an accessible attic space you will need to install running
boards
along side of your cables. Throw in a couple of nailplates in the
corners
to protect the cable from nails.
I see that you are using 12/2 for lighting. It sounds like overkill.
Did
you actually figure out what your lighting load is going to be?
There is
no
need for a GFCI circuit breaker for your outdoor lighting however
your
garage receptacles are required to be GFCI protected including the
one
on
the ceiling. A GFCI receptacle is cheaper than a GFCI circuit
breaker
and
can protect receptacles downstream.
Since you seem to be using all 12/2 be mindful of the cubic inch
capacity
of
your boxes. Each wiring device uses the equivalent of two conductors
and
must be considered when calculating your total number of wires in a
box.
Since this probably a subpanel your ground wires in the circuit
breaker
panel need to go onto the ground bar and not the neutral bar.
Grounds
and
neutrals are kept separate in a subpanel. You will need to run four
conductors to feed your subpanel. Remove the green bonding screw
from
the
neutral bar. I think that a main breaker is required in the panel
for
this
installation, but I would need to look it up to be sure. If that two
pole
breaker in the lower left is going to be your main it will need to
be
held
down with a screw or clamp. Check the panel labeling for the part
number
for this.
My panel is "upside down" The instructions said to mount it this way
if the panel will be "bottom fed". Which mine will. SO the ground buss
is on the left and the neutral bus is on the right.
*The neutral buss is on each side and you currently have your ground
wires
connected to the left side neutral bar. You are supposed to connect
each
neutral below the corresponding circuit breaker for easy
identification.
The ground bar is that small little screw terminal strip on the left
set
back from the neutral bar. You can probably install at least two wires
under
each screw on the ground bar which is why it is so small. The panel
labeling will tell you the number of wires per screw allowed. The
label
may
also have a diagram of the interior of the panel confirming the
neutral
bar
on each side.
Please tell me that you will be having this work inspected.- Hide
quoted
text -
- Show quoted text -
I will double check but the bank on the right says "neutral" and the
one on the left says "ground". I plan on using this as a garage and
hobby shop. I was told I could have a maximum of 13 outlets on one
circuit so I figured 11 was ok. I figured it would be rare to run more
than one thing at a time.
Sounds like your adviser is mistaking commercial outlet requirements for
residential outlet requirements. There is no minimum or maximum amount
of
outlets per circuit. As John Grabowski points out, there is something
peculiar about the neutral buss. I recognize the panel as a GE brand,
and
there should be a bridge connecting the two neutral busses, which I
don't
see.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
The person that advised me was the electrical inspector. He said to
figure 1.5 amps per outlet. 1.5 x 13 = 19.5 amps. (all mine are 20 amp
circuts.
i will double check when I get home but I really belive I only have
one neutral buss and the other is ground. This is a 100 amp GE panel
with 100 amp main breaker. Bought at Lowes.
It would be odd, for the panel to be built with a ground buss off to the
side, as yours is, and another ground "only" buss set on insulators, as
yours is. As I said, that panel comes with a bridge, that connects both
sides of the neutral buss together. It's entirely possible that it was
tampered with. Your electrical inspectors recommendation of figuring 1.5
amps per receptacle is fine, and I would figure fewer outlets per circuit
in your situation, however that is a commercial calculation, not
residential.
RBM,
I know you are an expert on this stuff. When I am reading any threads on
this forum that involve electricity, I always look for your replies to see
what the real answer is. I also know that I am NOT an expert on any of
this, and I have just been trying to learn what I can over the past few
months.
But, I did just recently have two panels put in that are now subpanels,
but which eventually will become main panels when I have new electric
service put in. What I ended up doing was buy two main panels but set
them up as sub panels for now. The main panels did come with a bridge
that connects both sides of the neutral buss together. But there were
instructions that said the main panel could be used as a sub panel by
first taking out the bridge, and then tightening down a screw all the way
on one of the busses that is on insulators so that buss will then be
bonded to the panel itself. That made that buss a ground buss, while the
other buss remained as a neutral buss that is mounted on insulators and is
not bonded to the panel. According to the instructions, the other way to
do this would be what you said -- both neutrals are insulated from the
panel box and connected together with the bar in place, and then a
separate grounding bar is added and mounted to the panel box. With this
second option, the screw I mentioned earlier is left NOT tightened down,
and that buss remains insulated from the panel box.
So, as far as I can tell, the panels are set up to allow either approach
to be used when using that main panel as a sub panel. And, I think the OP
may have his panel set up like the first option (with one buss bonded to
the panel box and used as a ground buss, and the other buss remaining
insulated and used as a neutral buss), and no bar would be in place
connecting the two busses together.
Thank you for the compliment. There are a number of very sharp folks on this
newsgroup, and in all honesty, I come here to learn. To your point, you are
absolutely correct. I've done exactly what you describe on numerous
occasions. In this case, it appears that the "grounding" buss came installed
in the panel, in which case I would have left the neutral buss alone, and I
didn't get the impression that the OP was the one that removed the bridge.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I verified tonight what the panel said. Left says 'grounding strap",
right says "neutral strap". usint a continuity meter, left bank has
continuity to the enclosure. Netral strap on the right does not.

Instructions call that little bar to the very left "addition"
grounding connections.

By the way, I plan on having 2 240 volt circuits, one for an air
compressor one for a lincol welder "buz box". I was going to make the
compressor a 30 amp circuit with 20-3 wire and the welder a 50 amp
circuit with 6 guage. Does it matter if I have bothe these breakers on
the same buss as the 100 amp main breaker or would that be bad
practice to have alot of voltage on one bank compred to the other?

Also, do I need to have these outlets a certain distance from the
overhead garage door? I would like ot place them as close as I can so
I can reach outside with them if I need to,.


The 240V circuits will be bussed the same no matter where you install
them in the box. (and you might want to look into GE 1/2" THQP breakers
so you don't fill your panel up so fast)

Are your feeding this panel with a 3-wire circuit or 4 wires? Since the
garage is detached, you can do it either way (with some restrictions on
the 3-wire method.) It makes a difference on how you're supposed to
hook up the ground.

You can use 8 gauge wire for that 50A welder and save a little money,
plus #8 is easier to work with than any other large size (including #10)
because it's flexible.

Bob

"John Grabowski" wrote in message
...

As you know I am working on wiring a detached garage/shop. I am a
newbie. I have attached a link to my work thus far. I am having a
little trouble figuring out how to route everything. Any helpful
advice is appreciated.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42254706@N03/

*I usually use metal boxes in garages due to the firewall
requirement.
You
should not install your wiring devices until after the drywall is
installed.
The routing of the cable seems fine except that Romex cannot extend
over
four feet without being supported. If the space above the ceiling is
going
to be an accessible attic space you will need to install running
boards
along side of your cables. Throw in a couple of nailplates in the
corners
to protect the cable from nails.

I see that you are using 12/2 for lighting. It sounds like overkill.
Did
you actually figure out what your lighting load is going to be?
There is
no
need for a GFCI circuit breaker for your outdoor lighting however
your
garage receptacles are required to be GFCI protected including the
one
on
the ceiling. A GFCI receptacle is cheaper than a GFCI circuit
breaker
and
can protect receptacles downstream.

Since you seem to be using all 12/2 be mindful of the cubic inch
capacity
of
your boxes. Each wiring device uses the equivalent of two conductors
and
must be considered when calculating your total number of wires in a
box.

Since this probably a subpanel your ground wires in the circuit
breaker
panel need to go onto the ground bar and not the neutral bar.
Grounds
and
neutrals are kept separate in a subpanel. You will need to run four
conductors to feed your subpanel. Remove the green bonding screw
from
the
neutral bar. I think that a main breaker is required in the panel
for
this
installation, but I would need to look it up to be sure. If that two
pole
breaker in the lower left is going to be your main it will need to
be
held
down with a screw or clamp. Check the panel labeling for the part
number
for this.

My panel is "upside down" The instructions said to mount it this way
if the panel will be "bottom fed". Which mine will. SO the ground buss
is on the left and the neutral bus is on the right.

*The neutral buss is on each side and you currently have your ground
wires
connected to the left side neutral bar. You are supposed to connect
each
neutral below the corresponding circuit breaker for easy
identification.
The ground bar is that small little screw terminal strip on the left
set
back from the neutral bar. You can probably install at least two wires
under
each screw on the ground bar which is why it is so small. The panel
labeling will tell you the number of wires per screw allowed. The
label
may
also have a diagram of the interior of the panel confirming the
neutral
bar
on each side.

Please tell me that you will be having this work inspected.- Hide
quoted
text -

- Show quoted text -

I will double check but the bank on the right says "neutral" and the
one on the left says "ground". I plan on using this as a garage and
hobby shop. I was told I could have a maximum of 13 outlets on one
circuit so I figured 11 was ok. I figured it would be rare to run more
than one thing at a time.

Sounds like your adviser is mistaking commercial outlet requirements for
residential outlet requirements. There is no minimum or maximum amount
of
outlets per circuit. As John Grabowski points out, there is something
peculiar about the neutral buss. I recognize the panel as a GE brand,
and
there should be a bridge connecting the two neutral busses, which I
don't
see.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The person that advised me was the electrical inspector. He said to
figure 1.5 amps per outlet. 1.5 x 13 = 19.5 amps. (all mine are 20 amp
circuts.

i will double check when I get home but I really belive I only have
one neutral buss and the other is ground. This is a 100 amp GE panel
with 100 amp main breaker. Bought at Lowes.

It would be odd, for the panel to be built with a ground buss off to the
side, as yours is, and another ground "only" buss set on insulators, as
yours is. As I said, that panel comes with a bridge, that connects both
sides of the neutral buss together. It's entirely possible that it was
tampered with. Your electrical inspectors recommendation of figuring 1.5
amps per receptacle is fine, and I would figure fewer outlets per circuit
in your situation, however that is a commercial calculation, not
residential.


*Roy I looked again at the photo and I noticed this before and thought it
odd, but now it makes sense. There are two lugs on the right neutral bar
and one on the left neutral bar. There may have been an accessory piece
for the installer to connect the two bars, but the OP left it off. Or
maybe a piece of wire is to be used if the neutral bar on both sides was
needed. In that case the OP is correct in using the left side as a ground
bar and the green screw should be installed. I've used the GE panels
before and have never seen this. Maybe it is something new. This
probably is a 12/24 panel that can also be used for service entrance hence
the reason for being convertible.

I think you hit the nail on the head. I wouldn't be surprised if these
panels are specially built for places like HD and Lowes. The OP's
description sounds perfectly legitimate, yet I've never seen one that came
that way, straight out of the box

"stryped" wrote in message
...
On Sep 8, 6:15 pm, "RBM" wrote:
"JayTKR" wrote in message

...







"RBM" wrote in message
...

"stryped" wrote in message
...
On Sep 8, 3:53 pm, "RBM" wrote:
"stryped" wrote in message

...
On Sep 8, 2:25 pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:

As you know I am working on wiring a detached garage/shop. I am
a
newbie. I have attached a link to my work thus far. I am having
a
little trouble figuring out how to route everything. Any helpful
advice is appreciated.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42254706@N03/

*I usually use metal boxes in garages due to the firewall
requirement.
You
should not install your wiring devices until after the drywall is
installed.
The routing of the cable seems fine except that Romex cannot
extend
over
four feet without being supported. If the space above the ceiling
is
going
to be an accessible attic space you will need to install running
boards
along side of your cables. Throw in a couple of nailplates in the
corners
to protect the cable from nails.

I see that you are using 12/2 for lighting. It sounds like
overkill.
Did
you actually figure out what your lighting load is going to be?
There is
no
need for a GFCI circuit breaker for your outdoor lighting however
your
garage receptacles are required to be GFCI protected including the
one
on
the ceiling. A GFCI receptacle is cheaper than a GFCI circuit
breaker
and
can protect receptacles downstream.

Since you seem to be using all 12/2 be mindful of the cubic inch
capacity
of
your boxes. Each wiring device uses the equivalent of two
conductors
and
must be considered when calculating your total number of wires in
a
box.

Since this probably a subpanel your ground wires in the circuit
breaker
panel need to go onto the ground bar and not the neutral bar.
Grounds
and
neutrals are kept separate in a subpanel. You will need to run
four
conductors to feed your subpanel. Remove the green bonding screw
from
the
neutral bar. I think that a main breaker is required in the panel
for
this
installation, but I would need to look it up to be sure. If that
two
pole
breaker in the lower left is going to be your main it will need to
be
held
down with a screw or clamp. Check the panel labeling for the part
number
for this.

My panel is "upside down" The instructions said to mount it this way
if the panel will be "bottom fed". Which mine will. SO the ground
buss
is on the left and the neutral bus is on the right.

*The neutral buss is on each side and you currently have your ground
wires
connected to the left side neutral bar. You are supposed to connect
each
neutral below the corresponding circuit breaker for easy
identification.
The ground bar is that small little screw terminal strip on the left
set
back from the neutral bar. You can probably install at least two
wires
under
each screw on the ground bar which is why it is so small. The panel
labeling will tell you the number of wires per screw allowed. The
label
may
also have a diagram of the interior of the panel confirming the
neutral
bar
on each side.

Please tell me that you will be having this work inspected.- Hide
quoted
text -

- Show quoted text -

I will double check but the bank on the right says "neutral" and the
one on the left says "ground". I plan on using this as a garage and
hobby shop. I was told I could have a maximum of 13 outlets on one
circuit so I figured 11 was ok. I figured it would be rare to run more
than one thing at a time.

Sounds like your adviser is mistaking commercial outlet requirements
for
residential outlet requirements. There is no minimum or maximum amount
of
outlets per circuit. As John Grabowski points out, there is something
peculiar about the neutral buss. I recognize the panel as a GE brand,
and
there should be a bridge connecting the two neutral busses, which I
don't
see.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The person that advised me was the electrical inspector. He said to
figure 1.5 amps per outlet. 1.5 x 13 = 19.5 amps. (all mine are 20 amp
circuts.

i will double check when I get home but I really belive I only have
one neutral buss and the other is ground. This is a 100 amp GE panel
with 100 amp main breaker. Bought at Lowes.

It would be odd, for the panel to be built with a ground buss off to
the
side, as yours is, and another ground "only" buss set on insulators, as
yours is. As I said, that panel comes with a bridge, that connects both
sides of the neutral buss together. It's entirely possible that it was
tampered with. Your electrical inspectors recommendation of figuring
1.5
amps per receptacle is fine, and I would figure fewer outlets per
circuit
in your situation, however that is a commercial calculation, not
residential.

RBM,

I know you are an expert on this stuff. When I am reading any threads on
this forum that involve electricity, I always look for your replies to
see
what the real answer is. I also know that I am NOT an expert on any of
this, and I have just been trying to learn what I can over the past few
months.

But, I did just recently have two panels put in that are now subpanels,
but which eventually will become main panels when I have new electric
service put in. What I ended up doing was buy two main panels but set
them up as sub panels for now. The main panels did come with a bridge
that connects both sides of the neutral buss together. But there were
instructions that said the main panel could be used as a sub panel by
first taking out the bridge, and then tightening down a screw all the
way
on one of the busses that is on insulators so that buss will then be
bonded to the panel itself. That made that buss a ground buss, while the
other buss remained as a neutral buss that is mounted on insulators and
is
not bonded to the panel. According to the instructions, the other way to
do this would be what you said -- both neutrals are insulated from the
panel box and connected together with the bar in place, and then a
separate grounding bar is added and mounted to the panel box. With this
second option, the screw I mentioned earlier is left NOT tightened down,
and that buss remains insulated from the panel box.

So, as far as I can tell, the panels are set up to allow either approach
to be used when using that main panel as a sub panel. And, I think the
OP
may have his panel set up like the first option (with one buss bonded to
the panel box and used as a ground buss, and the other buss remaining
insulated and used as a neutral buss), and no bar would be in place
connecting the two busses together.

Thank you for the compliment. There are a number of very sharp folks on
this
newsgroup, and in all honesty, I come here to learn. To your point, you
are
absolutely correct. I've done exactly what you describe on numerous
occasions. In this case, it appears that the "grounding" buss came
installed
in the panel, in which case I would have left the neutral buss alone, and
I
didn't get the impression that the OP was the one that removed the
bridge.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I verified tonight what the panel said. Left says 'grounding strap",
right says "neutral strap". usint a continuity meter, left bank has
continuity to the enclosure. Netral strap on the right does not.

Instructions call that little bar to the very left "addition"
grounding connections.

By the way, I plan on having 2 240 volt circuits, one for an air
compressor one for a lincol welder "buz box". I was going to make the
compressor a 30 amp circuit with 20-3 wire and the welder a 50 amp
circuit with 6 guage. Does it matter if I have bothe these breakers on
the same buss as the 100 amp main breaker or would that be bad
practice to have alot of voltage on one bank compred to the other?

Also, do I need to have these outlets a certain distance from the
overhead garage door? I would like ot place them as close as I can so
I can reach outside with them if I need to,.

I'm assuming that by "on the same buss", you mean opposite sides of the same
section of buss. I would tend to avoid doing that, and would set them side
by side, and use circuits with lesser loads opposite heavily loaded
breakers.
You can install the outlets as close to the door as you like.
Your 30 amp circuit will probably be on 10/3, 20/3 is doorbell wire

"zxcvbob" wrote in message
...
stryped wrote:
On Sep 8, 6:15 pm, "RBM" wrote:
"JayTKR" wrote in message

...







"RBM" wrote in message
...
"stryped" wrote in message
...
On Sep 8, 3:53 pm, "RBM" wrote:
"stryped" wrote in message
...
On Sep 8, 2:25 pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:
As you know I am working on wiring a detached garage/shop. I am a
newbie. I have attached a link to my work thus far. I am having a
little trouble figuring out how to route everything. Any helpful
advice is appreciated.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/42254706@N03/
*I usually use metal boxes in garages due to the firewall
requirement.
You
should not install your wiring devices until after the drywall is
installed.
The routing of the cable seems fine except that Romex cannot extend
over
four feet without being supported. If the space above the ceiling
is
going
to be an accessible attic space you will need to install running
boards
along side of your cables. Throw in a couple of nailplates in the
corners
to protect the cable from nails.
I see that you are using 12/2 for lighting. It sounds like
overkill.
Did
you actually figure out what your lighting load is going to be?
There is
no
need for a GFCI circuit breaker for your outdoor lighting however
your
garage receptacles are required to be GFCI protected including the
one
on
the ceiling. A GFCI receptacle is cheaper than a GFCI circuit
breaker
and
can protect receptacles downstream.
Since you seem to be using all 12/2 be mindful of the cubic inch
capacity
of
your boxes. Each wiring device uses the equivalent of two
conductors
and
must be considered when calculating your total number of wires in a
box.
Since this probably a subpanel your ground wires in the circuit
breaker
panel need to go onto the ground bar and not the neutral bar.
Grounds
and
neutrals are kept separate in a subpanel. You will need to run four
conductors to feed your subpanel. Remove the green bonding screw
from
the
neutral bar. I think that a main breaker is required in the panel
for
this
installation, but I would need to look it up to be sure. If that
two
pole
breaker in the lower left is going to be your main it will need to
be
held
down with a screw or clamp. Check the panel labeling for the part
number
for this.
My panel is "upside down" The instructions said to mount it this way
if the panel will be "bottom fed". Which mine will. SO the ground
buss
is on the left and the neutral bus is on the right.
*The neutral buss is on each side and you currently have your ground
wires
connected to the left side neutral bar. You are supposed to connect
each
neutral below the corresponding circuit breaker for easy
identification.
The ground bar is that small little screw terminal strip on the left
set
back from the neutral bar. You can probably install at least two
wires
under
each screw on the ground bar which is why it is so small. The panel
labeling will tell you the number of wires per screw allowed. The
label
may
also have a diagram of the interior of the panel confirming the
neutral
bar
on each side.
Please tell me that you will be having this work inspected.- Hide
quoted
text -
- Show quoted text -
I will double check but the bank on the right says "neutral" and the
one on the left says "ground". I plan on using this as a garage and
hobby shop. I was told I could have a maximum of 13 outlets on one
circuit so I figured 11 was ok. I figured it would be rare to run
more
than one thing at a time.
Sounds like your adviser is mistaking commercial outlet requirements
for
residential outlet requirements. There is no minimum or maximum
amount
of
outlets per circuit. As John Grabowski points out, there is something
peculiar about the neutral buss. I recognize the panel as a GE brand,
and
there should be a bridge connecting the two neutral busses, which I
don't
see.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
The person that advised me was the electrical inspector. He said to
figure 1.5 amps per outlet. 1.5 x 13 = 19.5 amps. (all mine are 20 amp
circuts.
i will double check when I get home but I really belive I only have
one neutral buss and the other is ground. This is a 100 amp GE panel
with 100 amp main breaker. Bought at Lowes.
It would be odd, for the panel to be built with a ground buss off to
the
side, as yours is, and another ground "only" buss set on insulators,
as
yours is. As I said, that panel comes with a bridge, that connects
both
sides of the neutral buss together. It's entirely possible that it was
tampered with. Your electrical inspectors recommendation of figuring
1.5
amps per receptacle is fine, and I would figure fewer outlets per
circuit
in your situation, however that is a commercial calculation, not
residential.
RBM,
I know you are an expert on this stuff. When I am reading any threads
on
this forum that involve electricity, I always look for your replies to
see
what the real answer is. I also know that I am NOT an expert on any of
this, and I have just been trying to learn what I can over the past few
months.
But, I did just recently have two panels put in that are now subpanels,
but which eventually will become main panels when I have new electric
service put in. What I ended up doing was buy two main panels but set
them up as sub panels for now. The main panels did come with a bridge
that connects both sides of the neutral buss together. But there were
instructions that said the main panel could be used as a sub panel by
first taking out the bridge, and then tightening down a screw all the
way
on one of the busses that is on insulators so that buss will then be
bonded to the panel itself. That made that buss a ground buss, while
the
other buss remained as a neutral buss that is mounted on insulators and
is
not bonded to the panel. According to the instructions, the other way
to
do this would be what you said -- both neutrals are insulated from the
panel box and connected together with the bar in place, and then a
separate grounding bar is added and mounted to the panel box. With
this
second option, the screw I mentioned earlier is left NOT tightened
down,
and that buss remains insulated from the panel box.
So, as far as I can tell, the panels are set up to allow either
approach
to be used when using that main panel as a sub panel. And, I think the
OP
may have his panel set up like the first option (with one buss bonded
to
the panel box and used as a ground buss, and the other buss remaining
insulated and used as a neutral buss), and no bar would be in place
connecting the two busses together.
Thank you for the compliment. There are a number of very sharp folks on
this
newsgroup, and in all honesty, I come here to learn. To your point, you
are
absolutely correct. I've done exactly what you describe on numerous
occasions. In this case, it appears that the "grounding" buss came
installed
in the panel, in which case I would have left the neutral buss alone,
and I
didn't get the impression that the OP was the one that removed the
bridge.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I verified tonight what the panel said. Left says 'grounding strap",
right says "neutral strap". usint a continuity meter, left bank has
continuity to the enclosure. Netral strap on the right does not.

Instructions call that little bar to the very left "addition"
grounding connections.

By the way, I plan on having 2 240 volt circuits, one for an air
compressor one for a lincol welder "buz box". I was going to make the
compressor a 30 amp circuit with 20-3 wire and the welder a 50 amp
circuit with 6 guage. Does it matter if I have bothe these breakers on
the same buss as the 100 amp main breaker or would that be bad
practice to have alot of voltage on one bank compred to the other?

Also, do I need to have these outlets a certain distance from the
overhead garage door? I would like ot place them as close as I can so
I can reach outside with them if I need to,.


The 240V circuits will be bussed the same no matter where you install them
in the box. (and you might want to look into GE 1/2" THQP breakers so you
don't fill your panel up so fast)

Are your feeding this panel with a 3-wire circuit or 4 wires? Since the
garage is detached, you can do it either way (with some restrictions on
the 3-wire method.) It makes a difference on how you're supposed to hook
up the ground.

It's probably not a good idea to even consider a three wire feeder. They're
outlawed in the new code, and they restrict you from connecting anything
conductive between the two buildings.

You can use 8 gauge wire for that 50A welder and save a little money, plus
#8 is easier to work with than any other large size (including #10)
because it's flexible.

Bob

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 8 Sep 2009 22:36:50 -0400, "RBM" wrote:

It's probably not a good idea to even consider a three wire feeder.
They're
outlawed in the new code, and they restrict you from connecting anything
conductive between the two buildings


That is not exactly true in the 2005 and earlier codes. It says "...
no continuous metallic paths BONDED TO THE GROUNDING SYSTEM".
It would apply to a metallic water piping system, required to be
bonded but not to a phone line, LAN or any number of other
connections.


My phone lines and catv lines are bonded to the grounding system. Why
wouldn't they be?