David Nebenzahl wrote:
http://www.solfocus.com/en/technology

"SolFocus' leading CPV technology combines high-efficiency solar cells
with advanced concentrating optics to provide high energy yield using
just 1/1000 the amount of photovoltaic material used in traditional
photovoltaic systems."


Is this the top sekrit technology that Smitty Two is working on?

Don't know but the 1000:1 concentration ratio would fit his posting as
does the dual-axis tracker...would seem a likely candidate, indeed.

Reasonable ideas certainly and much more practical approach than "orders
of magnitude" increases in efficiencies of the conversion cell.

--

In article , dpb wrote:

David Nebenzahl wrote:
http://www.solfocus.com/en/technology

"SolFocus' leading CPV technology combines high-efficiency solar cells
with advanced concentrating optics to provide high energy yield using
just 1/1000 the amount of photovoltaic material used in traditional
photovoltaic systems."


Is this the top sekrit technology that Smitty Two is working on?

Don't know but the 1000:1 concentration ratio would fit his posting as
does the dual-axis tracker...would seem a likely candidate, indeed.

Reasonable ideas certainly and much more practical approach than "orders
of magnitude" increases in efficiencies of the conversion cell.

--

Shhh. Next thing you guys know, if you keep talking about it,
economically viable solar will be on Letterman.

Yep, our system uses many of the same fundamentals as theirs.

When I find that graph, I'll post it. The solar cells really *have* shot
up in output, and using them requires concentrating. The two go
hand-in-hand. (Perhaps it would be more accurate to say the cells have
been reduced in size dramatically for the same output.)

By the way, the fellow at UC Merced that's noted at the bottom of that
page, apparently really knows his **** about PV. Merced, the newest UC
school, has won awards for being a "green" campus (built from the ground
up with conservation as the design trump card,) and has a strong
environmental sciences program.

Smitty Two wrote:
In article , dpb wrote:

David Nebenzahl wrote:
http://www.solfocus.com/en/technology

"SolFocus' leading CPV technology combines high-efficiency solar cells
with advanced concentrating optics to provide high energy yield using
just 1/1000 the amount of photovoltaic material used in traditional
photovoltaic systems."


Is this the top sekrit technology that Smitty Two is working on?
Don't know but the 1000:1 concentration ratio would fit his posting as
does the dual-axis tracker...would seem a likely candidate, indeed.

Reasonable ideas certainly and much more practical approach than "orders
of magnitude" increases in efficiencies of the conversion cell.

--

Shhh. Next thing you guys know, if you keep talking about it,
economically viable solar will be on Letterman.

Yep, our system uses many of the same fundamentals as theirs.

When I find that graph, I'll post it. The solar cells really *have* shot
up in output, and using them requires concentrating. The two go
hand-in-hand. (Perhaps it would be more accurate to say the cells have
been reduced in size dramatically for the same output.)

By the way, the fellow at UC Merced that's noted at the bottom of that
page, apparently really knows his **** about PV. Merced, the newest UC
school, has won awards for being a "green" campus (built from the ground
up with conservation as the design trump card,) and has a strong
environmental sciences program.

I wonder if anyone has looked into using a liquid coolant
to harvest heat from the solar cell concentrators? A source
of both electricity and heat/hot water.

TDD

http://www.solfocus.com/en/technology

"SolFocus' leading CPV technology combines high-efficiency solar cells
with advanced concentrating optics to provide high energy yield using
just 1/1000 the amount of photovoltaic material used in traditional
photovoltaic systems."


Is this the top sekrit technology that Smitty Two is working on?


--
Save the Planet
Kill Yourself

- motto of the Church of Euthanasia (http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/)

The Daring Dufas wrote:
....
I wonder if anyone has looked into using a liquid coolant
to harvest heat from the solar cell concentrators? A source
of both electricity and heat/hot water.

Yes...

http://www.nrel.gov/learning/re_csp.html

--

Smitty Two wrote:
....
Yep, our system uses many of the same fundamentals as theirs.

When I find that graph, I'll post it. The solar cells really *have* shot
up in output, and using them requires concentrating. The two go
hand-in-hand. (Perhaps it would be more accurate to say the cells have
been reduced in size dramatically for the same output.)
....

Noticed that their actual 1000:1 concentration is 500:1 effective
concentration, 2:1 conversion efficiency. That I can believe is
something that could have been doable...

It's been several years since I retired so I've backed out of the EPRI
loop and concentrated on a local issue of siting legislation thru State
legislature w/ local Representative who's big in the area. I'm sure
things have improved by measurable amounts since then but I haven't
heard of anything really revolutionary that would be the "orders of
magnitude" that was raising the flags. Wind is the big thing here, but
it's still got the intermittency problem and we need additional
uninterruptible supplies to pick up expanding grid load.

TX panhandle just about went blackout last August owing to an
unforecasted/undetected wind shift line that shut off virtually all
their wind generation output almost instantly at a peak summer load when
supplying almost 15% of grid up to that point. Managed to load shed and
recover, but it was iffy. Such operational issues aren't on the radar
for the greenies that think all you have to do is have nameplate
generation capacity installed and it's all done.

They all have a place but there's simply no way until have massive
storage capacity (and whatever technology we don't yet have to do it
where pumped storage, etc., isn't feasible/practical) it can ever be
more than a supplement. I don't see that problem being solved inside
the 50-yr kind of time frame, if then. We may get fusion or
high-enough-temperature superconductivity first, even.

--

On 4/6/2009 5:43 PM dpb spake thus:

TX panhandle just about went blackout last August owing to an
unforecasted/undetected wind shift line that shut off virtually all
their wind generation output almost instantly at a peak summer load when
supplying almost 15% of grid up to that point. Managed to load shed and
recover, but it was iffy. Such operational issues aren't on the radar
for the greenies that think all you have to do is have nameplate
generation capacity installed and it's all done.

If they're good greenies they'll take all that into consideration. We
need smart greenies, not just party-line-followers or PR flacks.


--
Save the Planet
Kill Yourself

- motto of the Church of Euthanasia (http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/)

David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 4/6/2009 5:43 PM dpb spake thus:

TX panhandle just about went blackout last August owing to an
unforecasted/undetected wind shift line that shut off virtually all
their wind generation output almost instantly at a peak summer load
when supplying almost 15% of grid up to that point. Managed to load
shed and recover, but it was iffy. Such operational issues aren't on
the radar for the greenies that think all you have to do is have
nameplate generation capacity installed and it's all done.

If they're good greenies they'll take all that into consideration. We
need smart greenies, not just party-line-followers or PR flacks.

I've yet to meet one or see any signs of any in energy policy or
siting/licensing hearings...

--

dpb wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
...
I wonder if anyone has looked into using a liquid coolant
to harvest heat from the solar cell concentrators? A source
of both electricity and heat/hot water.

Yes...

http://www.nrel.gov/learning/re_csp.html

--

Hummm, not exactly what I was referring to. That sort
of system has been around for years. I'm thinking of
a combination system on a small scale for a home. A
solar cell system combined with a liquid heat collector.
It shouldn't be too hard to develop.

TDD

David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 4/6/2009 5:43 PM dpb spake thus:

TX panhandle just about went blackout last August owing to an
unforecasted/undetected wind shift line that shut off virtually all
their wind generation output almost instantly at a peak summer load
when supplying almost 15% of grid up to that point. Managed to load
shed and recover, but it was iffy. Such operational issues aren't on
the radar for the greenies that think all you have to do is have
nameplate generation capacity installed and it's all done.

If they're good greenies they'll take all that into consideration. We
need smart greenies, not just party-line-followers or PR flacks.


Most of the greenies, as you call them, that I've come
across all live in la la land. Thanks to their government
school education, have absolutely no clue when it comes
to understanding basic science or engineering. "All we
need is electric cars" "OK, where you gonna plug them in?"
"Uh, uh, the electrical outlet." "Where's the power for
the outlet gonna come from?" "Well, wind and solar."
"What sort of wind and solar, please explain?" "Well, it's
........ YOU'RE A RACIST!" That's what I deal with when I
try to get them to come down out of the clouds.

TDD

The Daring Dufas wrote:
David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 4/6/2009 5:43 PM dpb spake thus:

TX panhandle just about went blackout last August owing to an
unforecasted/undetected wind shift line that shut off virtually all
their wind generation output almost instantly at a peak summer load
when supplying almost 15% of grid up to that point. Managed to load
shed and recover, but it was iffy. Such operational issues aren't on
the radar for the greenies that think all you have to do is have
nameplate generation capacity installed and it's all done.

If they're good greenies they'll take all that into consideration. We
need smart greenies, not just party-line-followers or PR flacks.


Most of the greenies, as you call them, that I've come
across all live in la la land. Thanks to their government
school education, have absolutely no clue when it comes
to understanding basic science or engineering. "All we
need is electric cars" "OK, where you gonna plug them in?"
"Uh, uh, the electrical outlet." "Where's the power for
the outlet gonna come from?" "Well, wind and solar."
"What sort of wind and solar, please explain?" "Well, it's
....... YOU'RE A RACIST!" That's what I deal with when I
try to get them to come down out of the clouds.

TDD

Or the idea that it is good simply because the government is lifting
money out of someone's else's pocket to pay for it. I went to a number
of factual alternative energy seminars where the presenters had lots of
good statistical data and wer not just brainless advocates.

Essentially my area is one of the worst in the country for wind power. I
happened to be at a local government office the other day meeting a
friend for lunch. A guy shows up acting on behalf of someone else to get
a building permit to erect a windmill. I mentioned that according to the
numbers I had seen windpower was something to consider for other areas.
He couldn't dispute that and his only defense was there was lots of
grant money so he hopped onto pimping stuff like this because "it would
only be wasted elsewhere--just look at that aig thing. I replied that
waste should be discouraged and I planned to fire any politician who
voted for the bailout and any other dubious stuff and hoped he would do
the same and just got a stupid look.

On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 03:30:13 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 4/6/2009 5:43 PM dpb spake thus:

TX panhandle just about went blackout last August owing to an
unforecasted/undetected wind shift line that shut off virtually all
their wind generation output almost instantly at a peak summer load
when supplying almost 15% of grid up to that point. Managed to load
shed and recover, but it was iffy. Such operational issues aren't on
the radar for the greenies that think all you have to do is have
nameplate generation capacity installed and it's all done.

If they're good greenies they'll take all that into consideration. We
need smart greenies, not just party-line-followers or PR flacks.


Most of the greenies, as you call them, that I've come
across all live in la la land. Thanks to their government
school education, have absolutely no clue when it comes
to understanding basic science or engineering. "All we
need is electric cars" "OK, where you gonna plug them in?"
"Uh, uh, the electrical outlet." "Where's the power for
the outlet gonna come from?" "Well, wind and solar."
"What sort of wind and solar, please explain?" "Well, it's
....... YOU'RE A RACIST!" That's what I deal with when I
try to get them to come down out of the clouds.

TDD

That may be your experience but it isn't mine. Most environmentalists
that I know are interested in how to do things, not just slogans. We
just had a Going Green event in my county and there were many lectures
and presentations.

Everything is a tradeoff, but the basics are that we need to shift
away from non-sustainable and polluting energy sources and towards
sustainable and cleaner ones. And, from what I read about global
warming, we'd better do it pretty fast.

I'd love to put up a windmill in my backyard. No idea how though. Or
solar panels on the roof, which is why I looked at the thread in the
first place. Not trivial I understand. Hopefully under Obama we can
get the cost down enough to make it practical. Even without a storage
system it should pay.

Actually, I don't know any environmentalists who fit your description.

dgk wrote:

That may be your experience but it isn't mine. Most environmentalists
that I know are interested in how to do things, not just slogans. We
just had a Going Green event in my county and there were many lectures
and presentations.

Did one of your lectures include the observation that the U.S. has five
percent of the worlds population but uses 25% of the world's energy. I bet
it did.

Did anybody mention that we use 25% of the world's energy and account for
27% of the world's GDP? I bet they didn't.


Everything is a tradeoff, but the basics are that we need to shift
away from non-sustainable and polluting energy sources and towards
sustainable and cleaner ones. And, from what I read about global
warming, we'd better do it pretty fast.

We do not need to shift. Current methods of power generation are known to be
sustainable for generations to come and the pollution level in the U.S. is
lower (and getting lower) than it was in 1960. By every measure, pollution
is decreasing. Interestingly, the time of most pollution was the late 1800's
when much heating was done with a sustainable resource - wood.


I'd love to put up a windmill in my backyard. No idea how though. Or
solar panels on the roof, which is why I looked at the thread in the
first place. Not trivial I understand. Hopefully under Obama we can
get the cost down enough to make it practical. Even without a storage
system it should pay.

You can erect your own windmill or solar panel by the week-end, but here's a
hint: I think the president is going to be too busy to help. Best ask a
neighbor. And the only way you can make it "pay" is to make me - and your
neighbor - "pay" for part of it in the form of your tax credits or
deductions.

Which brings up an interesting idea: Instead of the government providing a
tax holiday for windmills or solar panels, how about the government LOAN
people the money to build these things? Individuals could repay the loan
with the money they save in energy costs. Unless, of course, the savings are
not enough to cover the note...

In article , "HeyBub" wrote:

Which brings up an interesting idea: Instead of the government providing a
tax holiday for windmills or solar panels, how about the government LOAN
people the money to build these things? Individuals could repay the loan
with the money they save in energy costs. Unless, of course, the savings are
not enough to cover the note...

Having the government enter the bad loan business hasn't already
created a big enough mess for you?

--
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". |
| Gary Player. |
| http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

dgk wrote:
On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 03:30:13 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 4/6/2009 5:43 PM dpb spake thus:

TX panhandle just about went blackout last August owing to an
unforecasted/undetected wind shift line that shut off virtually all
their wind generation output almost instantly at a peak summer load
when supplying almost 15% of grid up to that point. Managed to load
shed and recover, but it was iffy. Such operational issues aren't on
the radar for the greenies that think all you have to do is have
nameplate generation capacity installed and it's all done.
If they're good greenies they'll take all that into consideration. We
need smart greenies, not just party-line-followers or PR flacks.

Most of the greenies, as you call them, that I've come
across all live in la la land. Thanks to their government
school education, have absolutely no clue when it comes
to understanding basic science or engineering. "All we
need is electric cars" "OK, where you gonna plug them in?"
"Uh, uh, the electrical outlet." "Where's the power for
the outlet gonna come from?" "Well, wind and solar."
"What sort of wind and solar, please explain?" "Well, it's
....... YOU'RE A RACIST!" That's what I deal with when I
try to get them to come down out of the clouds.

TDD

That may be your experience but it isn't mine. Most environmentalists
that I know are interested in how to do things, not just slogans. We
just had a Going Green event in my county and there were many lectures
and presentations.

Everything is a tradeoff, but the basics are that we need to shift
away from non-sustainable and polluting energy sources and towards
sustainable and cleaner ones. And, from what I read about global
warming, we'd better do it pretty fast.

I'd love to put up a windmill in my backyard. No idea how though. Or
solar panels on the roof, which is why I looked at the thread in the
first place. Not trivial I understand. Hopefully under Obama we can
get the cost down enough to make it practical. Even without a storage
system it should pay.

Actually, I don't know any environmentalists who fit your description.

OK, who's going to pay for it? "We will all have to sacrifice
so we all can go green." "What if someone, like me, doesn't
believe in all this nonsense of global warming and is not willing
to give up or sacrifice anything because of junk science?" "Well,
well........YOU'RE A RACISTS!" I really don't try to argue with
those who worship at the alter of junk science. I just have to
laugh and shake my head because I feel sorry for the poor misguided
souls. Oh, global warming has struck here again in The South, it
was below freezing last night and it will be colder tonight. Hurry
up global warming, I'm cold!

TDD

On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 15:39:22 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

dgk wrote:
On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 03:30:13 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 4/6/2009 5:43 PM dpb spake thus:

TX panhandle just about went blackout last August owing to an
unforecasted/undetected wind shift line that shut off virtually all
their wind generation output almost instantly at a peak summer load
when supplying almost 15% of grid up to that point. Managed to load
shed and recover, but it was iffy. Such operational issues aren't on
the radar for the greenies that think all you have to do is have
nameplate generation capacity installed and it's all done.
If they're good greenies they'll take all that into consideration. We
need smart greenies, not just party-line-followers or PR flacks.

Most of the greenies, as you call them, that I've come
across all live in la la land. Thanks to their government
school education, have absolutely no clue when it comes
to understanding basic science or engineering. "All we
need is electric cars" "OK, where you gonna plug them in?"
"Uh, uh, the electrical outlet." "Where's the power for
the outlet gonna come from?" "Well, wind and solar."
"What sort of wind and solar, please explain?" "Well, it's
....... YOU'RE A RACIST!" That's what I deal with when I
try to get them to come down out of the clouds.

TDD

That may be your experience but it isn't mine. Most environmentalists
that I know are interested in how to do things, not just slogans. We
just had a Going Green event in my county and there were many lectures
and presentations.

Everything is a tradeoff, but the basics are that we need to shift
away from non-sustainable and polluting energy sources and towards
sustainable and cleaner ones. And, from what I read about global
warming, we'd better do it pretty fast.

I'd love to put up a windmill in my backyard. No idea how though. Or
solar panels on the roof, which is why I looked at the thread in the
first place. Not trivial I understand. Hopefully under Obama we can
get the cost down enough to make it practical. Even without a storage
system it should pay.

Actually, I don't know any environmentalists who fit your description.

OK, who's going to pay for it? "We will all have to sacrifice
so we all can go green." "What if someone, like me, doesn't
believe in all this nonsense of global warming and is not willing
to give up or sacrifice anything because of junk science?" "Well,
well........YOU'RE A RACISTS!" I really don't try to argue with
those who worship at the alter of junk science. I just have to
laugh and shake my head because I feel sorry for the poor misguided
souls. Oh, global warming has struck here again in The South, it
was below freezing last night and it will be colder tonight. Hurry
up global warming, I'm cold!

TDD

The first step on your journey to enlightenment will be to learn the
difference between weather and climate.

All rectangles are squares, but not all squares are rectangles,
grasshopper.

wrote:
On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 15:39:22 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

dgk wrote:
On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 03:30:13 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 4/6/2009 5:43 PM dpb spake thus:

TX panhandle just about went blackout last August owing to an
unforecasted/undetected wind shift line that shut off virtually all
their wind generation output almost instantly at a peak summer load
when supplying almost 15% of grid up to that point. Managed to load
shed and recover, but it was iffy. Such operational issues aren't on
the radar for the greenies that think all you have to do is have
nameplate generation capacity installed and it's all done.
If they're good greenies they'll take all that into consideration. We
need smart greenies, not just party-line-followers or PR flacks.

Most of the greenies, as you call them, that I've come
across all live in la la land. Thanks to their government
school education, have absolutely no clue when it comes
to understanding basic science or engineering. "All we
need is electric cars" "OK, where you gonna plug them in?"
"Uh, uh, the electrical outlet." "Where's the power for
the outlet gonna come from?" "Well, wind and solar."
"What sort of wind and solar, please explain?" "Well, it's
....... YOU'RE A RACIST!" That's what I deal with when I
try to get them to come down out of the clouds.

TDD
That may be your experience but it isn't mine. Most environmentalists
that I know are interested in how to do things, not just slogans. We
just had a Going Green event in my county and there were many lectures
and presentations.

Everything is a tradeoff, but the basics are that we need to shift
away from non-sustainable and polluting energy sources and towards
sustainable and cleaner ones. And, from what I read about global
warming, we'd better do it pretty fast.

I'd love to put up a windmill in my backyard. No idea how though. Or
solar panels on the roof, which is why I looked at the thread in the
first place. Not trivial I understand. Hopefully under Obama we can
get the cost down enough to make it practical. Even without a storage
system it should pay.

Actually, I don't know any environmentalists who fit your description.
OK, who's going to pay for it? "We will all have to sacrifice
so we all can go green." "What if someone, like me, doesn't
believe in all this nonsense of global warming and is not willing
to give up or sacrifice anything because of junk science?" "Well,
well........YOU'RE A RACISTS!" I really don't try to argue with
those who worship at the alter of junk science. I just have to
laugh and shake my head because I feel sorry for the poor misguided
souls. Oh, global warming has struck here again in The South, it
was below freezing last night and it will be colder tonight. Hurry
up global warming, I'm cold!

TDD

The first step on your journey to enlightenment will be to learn the
difference between weather and climate.

All rectangles are squares, but not all squares are rectangles,
grasshopper.


I tried to pull statistics out of my ass once.
All I got was dirty, smelly hands.

TDD

The Daring Dufas wrote:
wrote:
On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 15:39:22 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

dgk wrote:
On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 03:30:13 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 4/6/2009 5:43 PM dpb spake thus:

TX panhandle just about went blackout last August owing to an
unforecasted/undetected wind shift line that shut off virtually
all their wind generation output almost instantly at a peak
summer load when supplying almost 15% of grid up to that point.
Managed to load shed and recover, but it was iffy. Such
operational issues aren't on the radar for the greenies that
think all you have to do is have nameplate generation capacity
installed and it's all done.
If they're good greenies they'll take all that into
consideration. We need smart greenies, not just
party-line-followers or PR flacks.
Most of the greenies, as you call them, that I've come
across all live in la la land. Thanks to their government
school education, have absolutely no clue when it comes
to understanding basic science or engineering. "All we
need is electric cars" "OK, where you gonna plug them in?"
"Uh, uh, the electrical outlet." "Where's the power for
the outlet gonna come from?" "Well, wind and solar."
"What sort of wind and solar, please explain?" "Well, it's
....... YOU'RE A RACIST!" That's what I deal with when I
try to get them to come down out of the clouds.

TDD
That may be your experience but it isn't mine. Most
environmentalists that I know are interested in how to do things,
not just slogans. We just had a Going Green event in my county and
there were many lectures and presentations.

Everything is a tradeoff, but the basics are that we need to shift
away from non-sustainable and polluting energy sources and towards
sustainable and cleaner ones. And, from what I read about global
warming, we'd better do it pretty fast.

I'd love to put up a windmill in my backyard. No idea how though.
Or solar panels on the roof, which is why I looked at the thread
in the first place. Not trivial I understand. Hopefully under
Obama we can get the cost down enough to make it practical. Even
without a storage system it should pay.

Actually, I don't know any environmentalists who fit your
description.
OK, who's going to pay for it? "We will all have to sacrifice
so we all can go green." "What if someone, like me, doesn't
believe in all this nonsense of global warming and is not willing
to give up or sacrifice anything because of junk science?" "Well,
well........YOU'RE A RACISTS!" I really don't try to argue with
those who worship at the alter of junk science. I just have to
laugh and shake my head because I feel sorry for the poor misguided
souls. Oh, global warming has struck here again in The South, it
was below freezing last night and it will be colder tonight. Hurry
up global warming, I'm cold!

TDD

The first step on your journey to enlightenment will be to learn the
difference between weather and climate.

All rectangles are squares, but not all squares are rectangles,
grasshopper.


I tried to pull statistics out of my ass once.
All I got was dirty, smelly hands.

You are right,he just did. All squares are rectangles, but not all
rectangles are squares.

[snip]


You are right,he just did. All squares are rectangles, but not all
rectangles are squares.


Much better than the stupid "All rectangles are not squares".

On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 15:39:22 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:
....
system it should pay.

Actually, I don't know any environmentalists who fit your description.

OK, who's going to pay for it? "We will all have to sacrifice
so we all can go green." "What if someone, like me, doesn't
believe in all this nonsense of global warming and is not willing
to give up or sacrifice anything because of junk science?" "Well,
well........YOU'RE A RACISTS!" I really don't try to argue with
those who worship at the alter of junk science. I just have to
laugh and shake my head because I feel sorry for the poor misguided
souls. Oh, global warming has struck here again in The South, it
was below freezing last night and it will be colder tonight. Hurry
up global warming, I'm cold!

TDD

When I see someone too stupid to understand that you can still have
freezing events with global warming, then it's pointless to waste any
more time on them.

dgk wrote:
On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 15:39:22 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:
...
system it should pay.

Actually, I don't know any environmentalists who fit your description.
OK, who's going to pay for it? "We will all have to sacrifice
so we all can go green." "What if someone, like me, doesn't
believe in all this nonsense of global warming and is not willing
to give up or sacrifice anything because of junk science?" "Well,
well........YOU'RE A RACISTS!" I really don't try to argue with
those who worship at the alter of junk science. I just have to
laugh and shake my head because I feel sorry for the poor misguided
souls. Oh, global warming has struck here again in The South, it
was below freezing last night and it will be colder tonight. Hurry
up global warming, I'm cold!

TDD

When I see someone too stupid to understand that you can still have
freezing events with global warming, then it's pointless to waste any
more time on them.

You poor thing, you don't understand humor. I'd
hate to see your reaction to irony. Typical of
your lot to question the intelligence of those
you disagree with. Debate is not an option for
Liberal wackos. "Well,you, you, you're stupid"
"The science fairies are gonna sprinkle magic
pixie dust on the Earth and everything will get
all better, you'll see, you don't now cuz you're
stupid and you're a racist."

TDD

On 4/8/2009 8:16 AM The Daring Dufas spake thus:

dgk wrote:

On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 15:39:22 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:
...
system it should pay.

Actually, I don't know any environmentalists who fit your description.
OK, who's going to pay for it? "We will all have to sacrifice
so we all can go green." "What if someone, like me, doesn't
believe in all this nonsense of global warming and is not willing
to give up or sacrifice anything because of junk science?" "Well,
well........YOU'RE A RACISTS!" I really don't try to argue with
those who worship at the alter of junk science. I just have to
laugh and shake my head because I feel sorry for the poor misguided
souls. Oh, global warming has struck here again in The South, it
was below freezing last night and it will be colder tonight. Hurry
up global warming, I'm cold!

When I see someone too stupid to understand that you can still have
freezing events with global warming, then it's pointless to waste any
more time on them.

You poor thing, you don't understand humor. I'd
hate to see your reaction to irony.

Well, in his (??) defense, your "humor" was liberally sprinkled with
barbed opinions, making it hard to swallow.


--
Save the Planet
Kill Yourself

- motto of the Church of Euthanasia (http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/)

dgk wrote:
....
That may be your experience but it isn't mine. Most environmentalists
that I know are interested in how to do things, not just slogans. We
just had a Going Green event in my county and there were many lectures
and presentations.

Everything is a tradeoff, but the basics are that we need to shift
away from non-sustainable and polluting energy sources and towards
sustainable and cleaner ones. And, from what I read about global
warming, we'd better do it pretty fast.

I'd love to put up a windmill in my backyard. No idea how though. Or
solar panels on the roof, which is why I looked at the thread in the
first place. Not trivial I understand. Hopefully under Obama we can
get the cost down enough to make it practical. Even without a storage
system it should pay.

Actually, I don't know any environmentalists who fit your description.

Well, I've met some that know their particular technology and something
about some of the others but none I've come across have actually had the
experience of trying to run a commercial utility or transmission
company. They've all counted on the problem of general system
reliability and transmission to fall back onto the operating utility and
various mandates to require the utilities to absorb their output whether
it is cost- or operations-effective or not.

As far as the greenhouse gas thing goes, if there is any intent on the
part of those pushing against continued conventional generation to make
a real impact in the near term we'll find out in the near term as the
current list of nuclear licensing applications is processed and actual
hearings are held. If they, still again, fight them we'll know for
absolute fact they really have no agenda other than other than to simply
be obstructionists.

Obama can change or at least influence policy. What he can't change is
themodynamics or other physical laws and limitations. (Even if he like
Joshua he could get the sun to shine 24/7 while it could aid in solar
generation that would probably be detrimental to global warming. )
The point being that he can't do anything to change the fundamental
cost:benefit ratio of various generation technologies other than by
artificial artifices such as tax policy, environmental or other onerous
regulation on particular technologies or mandates of generation mixes.
He has no magic bullet that will make any particular green technology
more cost-effective and thereby "pay for itself" simply on the basis
that it meets some definition of "green". Eventually, some of these may
become competitive on their own as technology evolves, but that's
nothing that can be done solely by edict or a desire.

What one does individually is, of course, essentially independent of the
grid but imo it's up to that individual to invest to whatever level it
is seen to have a payback to themselves. Whether that means an actual
net economic breakeven point or a feel-good component that makes it seem
worthwhile even if it is more expensive is their choice. I'm not into
trying to heavily influence it by large subsidization, however. I could
be convinced of some moderate influence perhaps to simply begin to
provide seed markets, but one has to be careful in going overboard in
subsidizing particular technologies that may shortly be shown to be dead
ends as better ways get developed. There's a problem w/ interest
following dollars and that may detract from the truly innovative and
blue-sky research that might otherwise spring up unbidden.

The cost in the current system that I've not seen at all addressed that
I've raised previously is that while one can easily construct large
nameplate generation rating wind and solar farms, there has to be the
baseload generation in conjunction with that to support the baseload
demand including reliable spinning reserve. There's no reason to think
that this demand will decrease even if rate of increase can be trimmed
by conservation and efficiency increases if there is going to be any
economic growth. Hence, it takes an increase in conventional generation
to make this baseload capacity that effectively increases the cost of
the nonconventional generation as it also has to support the
conventional. And, to make it worse, the present limitations on what
conventional facilities can be licensed/sited means the high shift into
burning NG which is again one of the stupidest things imaginable to do
w/ decreasing NG inventories, T Boone or no...

--


--

David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 4/8/2009 8:16 AM The Daring Dufas spake thus:

dgk wrote:

On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 15:39:22 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:
...
system it should pay.

Actually, I don't know any environmentalists who fit your description.
OK, who's going to pay for it? "We will all have to sacrifice
so we all can go green." "What if someone, like me, doesn't
believe in all this nonsense of global warming and is not willing
to give up or sacrifice anything because of junk science?" "Well,
well........YOU'RE A RACISTS!" I really don't try to argue with
those who worship at the alter of junk science. I just have to
laugh and shake my head because I feel sorry for the poor misguided
souls. Oh, global warming has struck here again in The South, it
was below freezing last night and it will be colder tonight. Hurry
up global warming, I'm cold!

When I see someone too stupid to understand that you can still have
freezing events with global warming, then it's pointless to waste any
more time on them.

You poor thing, you don't understand humor. I'd
hate to see your reaction to irony.

Well, in his (??) defense, your "humor" was liberally sprinkled with
barbed opinions, making it hard to swallow.


Sorry, Liberals are like my Southern Baptist cousins,
it's just so much fun to tease them. They're reactions
and penchant for outrageous diatribes is great entertainment.

TDD

The Daring Dufas wrote:
....
a combination system on a small scale for a home. A
solar cell system combined with a liquid heat collector.
It shouldn't be too hard to develop.

Solar water heating has been around for years as well...it's one of the
areas that does have some reasonable payback in some areas as it doesn't
have the problem of the low conversion efficiency of PV, only the low
(relatively) energy input density.

I don't know what you want for the electrical generation side in your
wishlist, though--the size reqm't for useful output of any real
magnitude would be a problem if you're talking turbine-generator type
generation instead of direct conversion it would seem.

--

dpb wrote:
dgk wrote:
...
... Most environmentalists
that I know are interested in how to do things, not just slogans. We
just had a Going Green event in my county and there were many lectures
and presentations.

....

For the individual I don't doubt it (altho as some have noted, it may be
the cynic in me but I also tend to observe it) there are a lot in the
field that are there solely for the money _they_ derive, not because
they give a hoot about "green" per se...

I, otoh, am more concerned about the bigger picture of national energy
policy and overall economic competitiveness for the long haul.

While it's a little jump from the above specific point I'll stick it
here simply to avoid another post...

I also was going to note that some of the movements that want the public
to think their green may not necessarily be what they claim if one looks
under the hood. For only one specific example, during the recent siting
debate for a new generation facility here, there was a statewide TV,
radio and print campaign against it on purported environmental concerns
from an organization that was titled/presented as a ground-roots
concerned citizens' movement. Turned out, when discovered where it came
from and its source of funding, it was a competing adjacent-state
utility whose service area abuts the area to be served and that has a
wholly-owned subsidiary which is, conveniently, in the NG supply and
distribution market. 90% of the funding and all of the advertising
direction and creation actually came from them simply looking to protect
their turf and hopefully convert from clean-coal to a NG-fired unit for
which they would be the obvious supplier owing to proximity.

--

dpb wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
...
a combination system on a small scale for a home. A
solar cell system combined with a liquid heat collector.
It shouldn't be too hard to develop.

Solar water heating has been around for years as well...it's one of the
areas that does have some reasonable payback in some areas as it doesn't
have the problem of the low conversion efficiency of PV, only the low
(relatively) energy input density.

I don't know what you want for the electrical generation side in your
wishlist, though--the size reqm't for useful output of any real
magnitude would be a problem if you're talking turbine-generator type
generation instead of direct conversion it would seem.

--

My thought is to combine concentrating mirrors to increase
the efficiency of the solar cells. This may cause high enough
heat to damage the solar cells without active cooling. The
heat from the coolant could be used for heating water or the
living space. Some of the power generated by the solar cells
would always be used to run the cooling system and possible
movable concentrator mirrors. There are lots of low power
electronics and motors that could be utilized. I tinkered
with a Bosch tankless water a while back that had a turbine
generator that runs the electronics and controls when water
starts flowing through the water heater. That's what got me
thinking about the advances in electronics and controls that
require very little power. The sort of thing that made what
I'm thinking of impractical just a few short years ago.

TDD

On 4/8/2009 1:01 PM The Daring Dufas spake thus:

dpb wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:
...
a combination system on a small scale for a home. A
solar cell system combined with a liquid heat collector.
It shouldn't be too hard to develop.

Solar water heating has been around for years as well...it's one of the
areas that does have some reasonable payback in some areas as it doesn't
have the problem of the low conversion efficiency of PV, only the low
(relatively) energy input density.

I don't know what you want for the electrical generation side in your
wishlist, though--the size reqm't for useful output of any real
magnitude would be a problem if you're talking turbine-generator type
generation instead of direct conversion it would seem.

My thought is to combine concentrating mirrors to increase
the efficiency of the solar cells. This may cause high enough
heat to damage the solar cells without active cooling. The
heat from the coolant could be used for heating water or the
living space. Some of the power generated by the solar cells
would always be used to run the cooling system and possible
movable concentrator mirrors. There are lots of low power
electronics and motors that could be utilized.

Interesting idea (that you've mentioned here before).

Not to throw cold water on it, so to speak, but I'm just wondering if
existing solar concentrating technology isn't simpler and perhaps more
efficient. After all, we already have large solar plants that work by
concentrating sunlight on collectors and boiling some substance to drive
generators. (I don't think they use water, but some other material with
better heat-transfer qualities). Wouldn't it be better just to tweak
those units, rather than adding the complexity of PV into the equation?


--
Save the Planet
Kill Yourself

- motto of the Church of Euthanasia (http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/)

On 4/8/2009 12:53 PM dpb spake thus:

dpb wrote:

dgk wrote:
...
... Most environmentalists that I know are interested in how to
do things, not just slogans. We just had a Going Green event in
my county and there were many lectures and presentations.

...

For the individual I don't doubt it (altho as some have noted, it may be
the cynic in me but I also tend to observe it) there are a lot in the
field that are there solely for the money _they_ derive, not because
they give a hoot about "green" per se...

I, otoh, am more concerned about the bigger picture of national energy
policy and overall economic competitiveness for the long haul.

While it's a little jump from the above specific point I'll stick it
here simply to avoid another post...

I also was going to note that some of the movements that want the public
to think their green may not necessarily be what they claim if one looks
under the hood. For only one specific example, during the recent siting
debate for a new generation facility here, there was a statewide TV,
radio and print campaign against it on purported environmental concerns
from an organization that was titled/presented as a ground-roots
concerned citizens' movement. Turned out, when discovered where it came
from and its source of funding, it was a competing adjacent-state
utility whose service area abuts the area to be served and that has a
wholly-owned subsidiary which is, conveniently, in the NG supply and
distribution market. 90% of the funding and all of the advertising
direction and creation actually came from them simply looking to protect
their turf and hopefully convert from clean-coal to a NG-fired unit for
which they would be the obvious supplier owing to proximity.

Congratulations; you've just discovered that greenwashing does indeed
exist and is widely practiced. (cf "astroturf" vs. "grassroots" movements)

The *real* environmental movement has known about this since forever.


--
Save the Planet
Kill Yourself

- motto of the Church of Euthanasia (http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/)

David Nebenzahl wrote:
....
Congratulations; you've just discovered ...

I don't know how you managed to get "just" in there...I've know it for
roughly 30 years.

I've still to have come across anybody in the general groups who show up
at the hearings and protests that actually does have any commercial
generation experience/knowledge other than rate and/or siting complaints.

--

dpb wrote:

I also was going to note that some of the movements that want the
public to think their green may not necessarily be what they claim if
one looks under the hood. For only one specific example, during the
recent siting debate for a new generation facility here, there was a
statewide TV, radio and print campaign against it on purported
environmental concerns from an organization that was titled/presented
as a ground-roots concerned citizens' movement. Turned out, when
discovered where it came from and its source of funding, it was a
competing adjacent-state utility whose service area abuts the area to
be served and that has a wholly-owned subsidiary which is,
conveniently, in the NG supply and distribution market. 90% of the
funding and all of the advertising direction and creation actually
came from them simply looking to protect their turf and hopefully
convert from clean-coal to a NG-fired unit for which they would be
the obvious supplier owing to proximity.

Careful! You're getting into "Shoot the messenger" territory. Maybe the
organization in the neighboring state really, honestly, wanted to save the
three-whiskered toad (which is so rare that none have ever been seen).

Nah, probably not.

David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 4/8/2009 1:01 PM The Daring Dufas spake thus:

dpb wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:
...
a combination system on a small scale for a home. A
solar cell system combined with a liquid heat collector.
It shouldn't be too hard to develop.

Solar water heating has been around for years as well...it's one of
the areas that does have some reasonable payback in some areas as it
doesn't have the problem of the low conversion efficiency of PV, only
the low (relatively) energy input density.

I don't know what you want for the electrical generation side in your
wishlist, though--the size reqm't for useful output of any real
magnitude would be a problem if you're talking turbine-generator type
generation instead of direct conversion it would seem.

My thought is to combine concentrating mirrors to increase
the efficiency of the solar cells. This may cause high enough
heat to damage the solar cells without active cooling. The
heat from the coolant could be used for heating water or the
living space. Some of the power generated by the solar cells
would always be used to run the cooling system and possible
movable concentrator mirrors. There are lots of low power
electronics and motors that could be utilized.

Interesting idea (that you've mentioned here before).

Not to throw cold water on it, so to speak, but I'm just wondering if
existing solar concentrating technology isn't simpler and perhaps more
efficient. After all, we already have large solar plants that work by
concentrating sunlight on collectors and boiling some substance to drive
generators. (I don't think they use water, but some other material with
better heat-transfer qualities). Wouldn't it be better just to tweak
those units, rather than adding the complexity of PV into the equation?



If I remember correctly there was research done on this
here in the US years ago but Spain seems to have picked
up the ball and run with this technology, using heliostats
which are large mirrors to focus the sunlight onto a
central tower. More about it he

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_Spain

TDD

On Tue, 7 Apr 2009 22:43:38 +0100, "Clot"
wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:
wrote:
On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 15:39:22 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

dgk wrote:
On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 03:30:13 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 4/6/2009 5:43 PM dpb spake thus:

TX panhandle just about went blackout last August owing to an
unforecasted/undetected wind shift line that shut off virtually
all their wind generation output almost instantly at a peak
summer load when supplying almost 15% of grid up to that point.
Managed to load shed and recover, but it was iffy. Such
operational issues aren't on the radar for the greenies that
think all you have to do is have nameplate generation capacity
installed and it's all done.
If they're good greenies they'll take all that into
consideration. We need smart greenies, not just
party-line-followers or PR flacks.
Most of the greenies, as you call them, that I've come
across all live in la la land. Thanks to their government
school education, have absolutely no clue when it comes
to understanding basic science or engineering. "All we
need is electric cars" "OK, where you gonna plug them in?"
"Uh, uh, the electrical outlet." "Where's the power for
the outlet gonna come from?" "Well, wind and solar."
"What sort of wind and solar, please explain?" "Well, it's
....... YOU'RE A RACIST!" That's what I deal with when I
try to get them to come down out of the clouds.

TDD
That may be your experience but it isn't mine. Most
environmentalists that I know are interested in how to do things,
not just slogans. We just had a Going Green event in my county and
there were many lectures and presentations.

Everything is a tradeoff, but the basics are that we need to shift
away from non-sustainable and polluting energy sources and towards
sustainable and cleaner ones. And, from what I read about global
warming, we'd better do it pretty fast.

I'd love to put up a windmill in my backyard. No idea how though.
Or solar panels on the roof, which is why I looked at the thread
in the first place. Not trivial I understand. Hopefully under
Obama we can get the cost down enough to make it practical. Even
without a storage system it should pay.

Actually, I don't know any environmentalists who fit your
description.
OK, who's going to pay for it? "We will all have to sacrifice
so we all can go green." "What if someone, like me, doesn't
believe in all this nonsense of global warming and is not willing
to give up or sacrifice anything because of junk science?" "Well,
well........YOU'RE A RACISTS!" I really don't try to argue with
those who worship at the alter of junk science. I just have to
laugh and shake my head because I feel sorry for the poor misguided
souls. Oh, global warming has struck here again in The South, it
was below freezing last night and it will be colder tonight. Hurry
up global warming, I'm cold!

TDD

The first step on your journey to enlightenment will be to learn the
difference between weather and climate.

All rectangles are squares, but not all squares are rectangles,
grasshopper.


I tried to pull statistics out of my ass once.
All I got was dirty, smelly hands.

You are right,he just did. All squares are rectangles, but not all
rectangles are squares.


If you have any hair, it is now neatly parted in the middle.

wrote:
On Tue, 7 Apr 2009 22:43:38 +0100, "Clot"
wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:
wrote:
On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 15:39:22 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

dgk wrote:
On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 03:30:13 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 4/6/2009 5:43 PM dpb spake thus:

TX panhandle just about went blackout last August owing to an
unforecasted/undetected wind shift line that shut off
virtually all their wind generation output almost instantly
at a peak summer load when supplying almost 15% of grid up to
that point. Managed to load shed and recover, but it was
iffy. Such operational issues aren't on the radar for the
greenies that think all you have to do is have nameplate
generation capacity installed and it's all done.
If they're good greenies they'll take all that into
consideration. We need smart greenies, not just
party-line-followers or PR flacks.
Most of the greenies, as you call them, that I've come
across all live in la la land. Thanks to their government
school education, have absolutely no clue when it comes
to understanding basic science or engineering. "All we
need is electric cars" "OK, where you gonna plug them in?"
"Uh, uh, the electrical outlet." "Where's the power for
the outlet gonna come from?" "Well, wind and solar."
"What sort of wind and solar, please explain?" "Well, it's
....... YOU'RE A RACIST!" That's what I deal with when I
try to get them to come down out of the clouds.

TDD
That may be your experience but it isn't mine. Most
environmentalists that I know are interested in how to do things,
not just slogans. We just had a Going Green event in my county
and there were many lectures and presentations.

Everything is a tradeoff, but the basics are that we need to
shift away from non-sustainable and polluting energy sources and
towards sustainable and cleaner ones. And, from what I read
about global warming, we'd better do it pretty fast.

I'd love to put up a windmill in my backyard. No idea how though.
Or solar panels on the roof, which is why I looked at the thread
in the first place. Not trivial I understand. Hopefully under
Obama we can get the cost down enough to make it practical. Even
without a storage system it should pay.

Actually, I don't know any environmentalists who fit your
description.
OK, who's going to pay for it? "We will all have to sacrifice
so we all can go green." "What if someone, like me, doesn't
believe in all this nonsense of global warming and is not willing
to give up or sacrifice anything because of junk science?" "Well,
well........YOU'RE A RACISTS!" I really don't try to argue with
those who worship at the alter of junk science. I just have to
laugh and shake my head because I feel sorry for the poor
misguided souls. Oh, global warming has struck here again in The
South, it was below freezing last night and it will be colder
tonight. Hurry up global warming, I'm cold!

TDD

The first step on your journey to enlightenment will be to learn
the difference between weather and climate.

All rectangles are squares, but not all squares are rectangles,
grasshopper.


I tried to pull statistics out of my ass once.
All I got was dirty, smelly hands.

You are right,he just did. All squares are rectangles, but not all
rectangles are squares.


If you have any hair, it is now neatly parted in the middle.

Afraid not, a high albedo on top; too much testosterone I've been told! I
have a wide parting, it could be said!

dgk wrote:
On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 15:39:22 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:
...
system it should pay.

Actually, I don't know any environmentalists who fit your description.
OK, who's going to pay for it? "We will all have to sacrifice
so we all can go green." "What if someone, like me, doesn't
believe in all this nonsense of global warming and is not willing
to give up or sacrifice anything because of junk science?" "Well,
well........YOU'RE A RACISTS!" I really don't try to argue with
those who worship at the alter of junk science. I just have to
laugh and shake my head because I feel sorry for the poor misguided
souls. Oh, global warming has struck here again in The South, it
was below freezing last night and it will be colder tonight. Hurry
up global warming, I'm cold!

TDD

When I see someone too stupid to understand that you can still have
freezing events with global warming, then it's pointless to waste any
more time on them.
Hmmm,
Looks like he is a total selfish idiot or his head is DEEP in sand.
We need MANY more like him for our future generation, LOL!

Clot wrote:
wrote:
On Tue, 7 Apr 2009 22:43:38 +0100, "Clot"
wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:
wrote:
On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 15:39:22 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

dgk wrote:
On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 03:30:13 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 4/6/2009 5:43 PM dpb spake thus:

TX panhandle just about went blackout last August owing to an
unforecasted/undetected wind shift line that shut off
virtually all their wind generation output almost instantly
at a peak summer load when supplying almost 15% of grid up to
that point. Managed to load shed and recover, but it was
iffy. Such operational issues aren't on the radar for the
greenies that think all you have to do is have nameplate
generation capacity installed and it's all done.
If they're good greenies they'll take all that into
consideration. We need smart greenies, not just
party-line-followers or PR flacks.
Most of the greenies, as you call them, that I've come
across all live in la la land. Thanks to their government
school education, have absolutely no clue when it comes
to understanding basic science or engineering. "All we
need is electric cars" "OK, where you gonna plug them in?"
"Uh, uh, the electrical outlet." "Where's the power for
the outlet gonna come from?" "Well, wind and solar."
"What sort of wind and solar, please explain?" "Well, it's
....... YOU'RE A RACIST!" That's what I deal with when I
try to get them to come down out of the clouds.

TDD
That may be your experience but it isn't mine. Most
environmentalists that I know are interested in how to do things,
not just slogans. We just had a Going Green event in my county
and there were many lectures and presentations.

Everything is a tradeoff, but the basics are that we need to
shift away from non-sustainable and polluting energy sources and
towards sustainable and cleaner ones. And, from what I read
about global warming, we'd better do it pretty fast.

I'd love to put up a windmill in my backyard. No idea how though.
Or solar panels on the roof, which is why I looked at the thread
in the first place. Not trivial I understand. Hopefully under
Obama we can get the cost down enough to make it practical. Even
without a storage system it should pay.

Actually, I don't know any environmentalists who fit your
description.
OK, who's going to pay for it? "We will all have to sacrifice
so we all can go green." "What if someone, like me, doesn't
believe in all this nonsense of global warming and is not willing
to give up or sacrifice anything because of junk science?" "Well,
well........YOU'RE A RACISTS!" I really don't try to argue with
those who worship at the alter of junk science. I just have to
laugh and shake my head because I feel sorry for the poor
misguided souls. Oh, global warming has struck here again in The
South, it was below freezing last night and it will be colder
tonight. Hurry up global warming, I'm cold!

TDD
The first step on your journey to enlightenment will be to learn
the difference between weather and climate.

All rectangles are squares, but not all squares are rectangles,
grasshopper.

I tried to pull statistics out of my ass once.
All I got was dirty, smelly hands.
You are right,he just did. All squares are rectangles, but not all
rectangles are squares.

If you have any hair, it is now neatly parted in the middle.

Afraid not, a high albedo on top; too much testosterone I've been told! I
have a wide parting, it could be said!


So you look like you've been break dancing without
a cap on your head?

TDD

Tony Hwang wrote:
dgk wrote:
On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 15:39:22 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:
...
system it should pay.

Actually, I don't know any environmentalists who fit your description.
OK, who's going to pay for it? "We will all have to sacrifice
so we all can go green." "What if someone, like me, doesn't
believe in all this nonsense of global warming and is not willing
to give up or sacrifice anything because of junk science?" "Well,
well........YOU'RE A RACISTS!" I really don't try to argue with
those who worship at the alter of junk science. I just have to
laugh and shake my head because I feel sorry for the poor misguided
souls. Oh, global warming has struck here again in The South, it
was below freezing last night and it will be colder tonight. Hurry
up global warming, I'm cold!

TDD

When I see someone too stupid to understand that you can still have
freezing events with global warming, then it's pointless to waste any
more time on them.
Hmmm,
Looks like he is a total selfish idiot or his head is DEEP in sand.
We need MANY more like him for our future generation, LOL!

Which one of us are you insulting/teasing?

TDD

The Daring Dufas wrote:
Clot wrote:
wrote:
On Tue, 7 Apr 2009 22:43:38 +0100, "Clot"
wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:
wrote:
On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 15:39:22 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

dgk wrote:
On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 03:30:13 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 4/6/2009 5:43 PM dpb spake thus:

TX panhandle just about went blackout last August owing to
an unforecasted/undetected wind shift line that shut off
virtually all their wind generation output almost instantly
at a peak summer load when supplying almost 15% of grid up
to that point. Managed to load shed and recover, but it was
iffy. Such operational issues aren't on the radar for the
greenies that think all you have to do is have nameplate
generation capacity installed and it's all done.
If they're good greenies they'll take all that into
consideration. We need smart greenies, not just
party-line-followers or PR flacks.
Most of the greenies, as you call them, that I've come
across all live in la la land. Thanks to their government
school education, have absolutely no clue when it comes
to understanding basic science or engineering. "All we
need is electric cars" "OK, where you gonna plug them in?"
"Uh, uh, the electrical outlet." "Where's the power for
the outlet gonna come from?" "Well, wind and solar."
"What sort of wind and solar, please explain?" "Well, it's
....... YOU'RE A RACIST!" That's what I deal with when I
try to get them to come down out of the clouds.

TDD
That may be your experience but it isn't mine. Most
environmentalists that I know are interested in how to do
things, not just slogans. We just had a Going Green event in
my county and there were many lectures and presentations.

Everything is a tradeoff, but the basics are that we need to
shift away from non-sustainable and polluting energy sources
and towards sustainable and cleaner ones. And, from what I read
about global warming, we'd better do it pretty fast.

I'd love to put up a windmill in my backyard. No idea how
though. Or solar panels on the roof, which is why I looked at
the thread in the first place. Not trivial I understand.
Hopefully under Obama we can get the cost down enough to make
it practical. Even without a storage system it should pay.

Actually, I don't know any environmentalists who fit your
description.
OK, who's going to pay for it? "We will all have to sacrifice
so we all can go green." "What if someone, like me, doesn't
believe in all this nonsense of global warming and is not
willing to give up or sacrifice anything because of junk
science?" "Well, well........YOU'RE A RACISTS!" I really don't
try to argue with those who worship at the alter of junk
science. I just have to laugh and shake my head because I feel
sorry for the poor misguided souls. Oh, global warming has
struck here again in The South, it was below freezing last
night and it will be colder tonight. Hurry up global warming,
I'm cold! TDD
The first step on your journey to enlightenment will be to learn
the difference between weather and climate.

All rectangles are squares, but not all squares are rectangles,
grasshopper.

I tried to pull statistics out of my ass once.
All I got was dirty, smelly hands.
You are right,he just did. All squares are rectangles, but not all
rectangles are squares.

If you have any hair, it is now neatly parted in the middle.

Afraid not, a high albedo on top; too much testosterone I've been
told! I have a wide parting, it could be said!


So you look like you've been break dancing without
a cap on your head?

'fraid so!

dpb wrote:
David Nebenzahl wrote:
...
Congratulations; you've just discovered ...

I don't know how you managed to get "just" in there...I've know it for
roughly 30 years.

I've still to have come across anybody in the general groups who show
up at the hearings and protests that actually does have any commercial
generation experience/knowledge other than rate and/or siting
complaints.

But then again, at least the opposing issues get brought up. Without them, only
one side of the issue would be considered. Which can result in major problems in
the future, since the proponents of these projects would be unlikely promote
considerations that could delay or stop their projects.