We have a long gravel on clay driveway that is about 2 years old. It has
done fairly well until recently when we had a lot of rain & snow. The
gravel just got pushed down in the the gel/slime/whatever and the driveway
got in bad shape in a hurry. This residential driveway has more traffic
than a normal residential driveway but it is limited to about 10-15 cars a
day and normal a normal residential delivery truck (USPS, UPS, FEDEX) 2 or
so times a week.

I would appreciate any help with how to improve the driveway so we won't
have to frequently re-gravel it and then have it go bad in the next long
spell of wet weather.

Thanks for any help. (Is there a better place I could ask this question?)

wrote:
We have a long gravel on clay driveway that is about 2 years old. It
has done fairly well until recently when we had a lot of rain & snow.
The gravel just got pushed down in the the gel/slime/whatever and the
driveway got in bad shape in a hurry. This residential driveway has
more traffic than a normal residential driveway but it is limited to
about 10-15 cars a day and normal a normal residential delivery truck
(USPS, UPS, FEDEX) 2 or so times a week.

I would appreciate any help with how to improve the driveway so we
won't have to frequently re-gravel it and then have it go bad in the
next long spell of wet weather.

Thanks for any help. (Is there a better place I could ask this
question?)

There is a lot of information that you do not supply. Was the clay base
compacted, how thick is the gravel topping, what type and size(s) of gravel
used, was the gravel crushed gravel or round river gravel, was the first
layer of gravel a large size and then covered with finer gravel, do you have
deep frost in your area, do you have snow and/or lots of rain. That is what
I can think of for now.

wrote in message
...

We have a long gravel on clay driveway that is about 2 years old. It has
done fairly well until recently when we had a lot of rain & snow. The
gravel just got pushed down in the the gel/slime/whatever and the driveway
got in bad shape in a hurry. This residential driveway has more traffic
than a normal residential driveway but it is limited to about 10-15 cars a
day and normal a normal residential delivery truck (USPS, UPS, FEDEX) 2 or
so times a week.

I would appreciate any help with how to improve the driveway

I have had driveways of gravel atop clay for 34 years, in a place
where winters last 4 to 5 months. The only known "improvement"
is to add gravel every 4 to 6 years and roll judiciously. (It is no good
just accelerating the natural tendency for the gravel to burrow down
into the clay.)

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

On Fri, 20 Mar 2009 14:21:47 -0400, wrote:

We have a long gravel on clay driveway that is about 2 years old. It has
done fairly well until recently when we had a lot of rain & snow. The
gravel just got pushed down in the the gel/slime/whatever and the driveway
got in bad shape in a hurry. This residential driveway has more traffic
than a normal residential driveway but it is limited to about 10-15 cars a
day and normal a normal residential delivery truck (USPS, UPS, FEDEX) 2 or
so times a week.

I would appreciate any help with how to improve the driveway so we won't
have to frequently re-gravel it and then have it go bad in the next long
spell of wet weather.

Thanks for any help. (Is there a better place I could ask this question?)


That is a lot of traffic for a gravel driveway. Consider asphalt, or
even better, concrete.

Phisherman wrote:
On Fri, 20 Mar 2009 14:21:47 -0400, wrote:

We have a long gravel on clay driveway that is about 2 years old. It has
done fairly well until recently when we had a lot of rain & snow. The
gravel just got pushed down in the the gel/slime/whatever and the driveway
got in bad shape in a hurry. This residential driveway has more traffic
than a normal residential driveway but it is limited to about 10-15 cars a
day and normal a normal residential delivery truck (USPS, UPS, FEDEX) 2 or
so times a week.

I would appreciate any help with how to improve the driveway so we won't
have to frequently re-gravel it and then have it go bad in the next long
spell of wet weather.

Thanks for any help. (Is there a better place I could ask this question?)


That is a lot of traffic for a gravel driveway. Consider asphalt, or
even better, concrete.

Down south, they till in cement powder before they gravel- called out on
plot plans as 'soil-cement'. Not sure how you would do that on an
existing drive- maybe sprinkle it on with a lawn spreader, than go back
and forth over it with a box scraper? TOH landscape guy addressed it a
few times- the right mix of gravel sizes locks together with traffic or
rolling, and almost becomes like pavement. Beleive it was all unwashed
gravel, so maybe the stone dust acts like the cement they use down south
with the shell gravel.

No, I'm not a paving expert- why do you ask?

--
aem sends...

One way to improve your driveway is to first put down at least 3 inches of
rip rap, a common, large type of stone. This gives you a good road base,
and then you can put smaller gravel on top of the rip rap. Once you get
a good roadbase with the rip rap, it is highly unlikely that common cars and
light trucks would drive the gravel back into the soil.

Having 3 or 4 inches of small gravel will not always hold up during spring
freezing and thawing. The spring season is the hardest on a gravel road or
driveway.

James

James wrote:
One way to improve your driveway is to first put down at least 3
inches of rip rap, a common, large type of stone. This gives you a
good road base, and then you can put smaller gravel on top of the rip
rap. Once you get a good roadbase with the rip rap, it is highly
unlikely that common cars and light trucks would drive the gravel
back into the soil.

Having 3 or 4 inches of small gravel will not always hold up during
spring freezing and thawing. The spring season is the hardest on a
gravel road or driveway.

It will, but it took 25 years in our case!

wrote in message
...
We have a long gravel on clay driveway that is about 2 years old. It has
done fairly well until recently when we had a lot of rain & snow. The
gravel just got pushed down in the the gel/slime/whatever and the
driveway
got in bad shape in a hurry. This residential driveway has more traffic
than a normal residential driveway but it is limited to about 10-15 cars
a
day and normal a normal residential delivery truck (USPS, UPS, FEDEX) 2
or
so times a week.

I would appreciate any help with how to improve the driveway so we won't
have to frequently re-gravel it and then have it go bad in the next long
spell of wet weather.

Thanks for any help. (Is there a better place I could ask this
question?)

Consider using slag, limestone 57's, or berming gravel (mix used along
highway berms), on top of a good base.

James advice on using rip rap is excellent advice.

On Mar 20, 1:21*pm, wrote:

snip

Thanks for any help. *(Is there a better place I could ask this question?)

Yes. Your county highway department. A friendly conversation with the
chief engineer will tell you all you need to know. He will have the
skinny on your area relating to sources, prices and whatever else it
will take to make things more permanent and nearly maintenance free.
Maybe be a good guy and buy him lunch.

Joe

"Joe" wrote in message
...
On Mar 20, 1:21 pm, wrote:



Yes. Your county highway department. A friendly conversation with the
chief engineer will tell you all you need to know. He will have the
skinny on your area relating to sources, prices and whatever else it
will take to make things more permanent and nearly maintenance free.
Maybe be a good guy and buy him lunch.

Joe,

I'm not out to start a flame war, but you made me LOL.

I work for our States Department of Transportation. One thing, which will
get someone canned in a hurry, is taking something even as small as a cup
of coffee, let alone a lunch. That is a no-no within all government.

Government pricing will not apply to individuals.

Thanks for your reply - I will do my best to answer your questions below.

On Fri, 20 Mar 2009 14:43:43 -0400, "EXT"
wrote:

wrote:
We have a long gravel on clay driveway that is about 2 years old. It
has done fairly well until recently when we had a lot of rain & snow.
The gravel just got pushed down in the the gel/slime/whatever and the
driveway got in bad shape in a hurry. This residential driveway has
more traffic than a normal residential driveway but it is limited to
about 10-15 cars a day and normal a normal residential delivery truck
(USPS, UPS, FEDEX) 2 or so times a week.

I would appreciate any help with how to improve the driveway so we
won't have to frequently re-gravel it and then have it go bad in the
next long spell of wet weather.

Thanks for any help. (Is there a better place I could ask this
question?)

There is a lot of information that you do not supply. Was the clay base
compacted,
No - except by construction trucks & modular carriers during construction.
how thick is the gravel topping,
Not more than 3" originally, now zero in some places.
what type and size(s) of gravel used, was the gravel crushed gravel or round river gravel,
The gravel ranges 3/4" to 1 1/2 inch. It is rounded brown river gravel.
was the first layer of gravel a large size and then covered with finer gravel,
No
do you have deep frost in your area, do you have snow and/or lots of rain.
We are southeastern coastal Virginia, once every few years we have a heavy
snow. About half the winters have no snow. All time low is 0F, ground
almost never freezes as deep as 1 foot. We have extended periods of
drought and lengthy periods of a lot of rain. Our road really deteriorated
after a recent snow, we'vd had lots of rain too.

Thanks again

That is what I can think of for now.

wrote:
Thanks for your reply - I will do my best to answer your questions
below.

On Fri, 20 Mar 2009 14:43:43 -0400, "EXT"
wrote:

wrote:
We have a long gravel on clay driveway that is about 2 years old.
It has done fairly well until recently when we had a lot of rain
& snow. The gravel just got pushed down in the the
gel/slime/whatever and the driveway got in bad shape in a hurry.
This residential driveway has more traffic than a normal
residential driveway but it is limited to about 10-15 cars a day
and normal a normal residential delivery truck (USPS, UPS, FEDEX)
2 or so times a week.

I would appreciate any help with how to improve the driveway so we
won't have to frequently re-gravel it and then have it go bad in
the next long spell of wet weather.

Thanks for any help. (Is there a better place I could ask this
question?)

There is a lot of information that you do not supply. Was the clay
base
compacted,
No - except by construction trucks & modular carriers during
construction.
how thick is the gravel topping,
Not more than 3" originally, now zero in some places.
what type and size(s) of gravel used, was the gravel crushed gravel
or round river gravel,
The gravel ranges 3/4" to 1 1/2 inch. It is rounded brown river
gravel.
was the first layer of gravel a large size and then covered with
finer gravel,
No
do you have deep frost in your area, do you have snow and/or lots
of rain.
We are southeastern coastal Virginia, once every few years we have a
heavy snow. About half the winters have no snow. All time low is
0F, ground almost never freezes as deep as 1 foot. We have extended
periods of drought and lengthy periods of a lot of rain. Our road
really deteriorated after a recent snow, we'vd had lots of rain too.

Thanks again

That is what I can think of for now.

Two questions I forgot to ask: Is the driveway wide enough so that the
vehicle tires are not always running in the same spot causing a rut? Also
was the organic topsoil removed from under the driveway? Topsoil is a
surefire guaranteed failure as it is never stable and will just absorb the
gravel forever as the soil migrates up as mud and the gravel gets buried.

3" of rounded river gravel is not enough, especially with an uncompacted
base. You need several inches of coarse crushed gravel as a base. Rounded
gravel does not lock together, it rolls, moves and slides about as traffic
goes over it, crushed gravel has sharp edges and will jam together and hold
up better. You need a foot or more of quality gravel. One technique I have
seen is to use a heavy duty landscape type fabric to separate the clay from
the aggregate. I have a driveway that is 16 feet wide, built on a clay base,
in a high water area. I have a foot of old highway gravel and ashpalt pieces
covered with 6" of 2" crusher run limestone (this has all the crushed
limestone fines inbetween the stone causing it to harden when compacted into
a soft concrete), another 6" of 3/4" crusher run limestone and topped with
limestone screenings (the dust that is separated from the crushed gravel). I
can handle fully loaded concrete redimix trucks without a depression, only a
scuff on the surface which heals over.

wrote in message
...
We have a long gravel on clay driveway that is about 2 years old. It has
done fairly well until recently when we had a lot of rain & snow. The
gravel just got pushed down in the the gel/slime/whatever and the driveway
got in bad shape in a hurry. This residential driveway has more traffic
than a normal residential driveway but it is limited to about 10-15 cars a
day and normal a normal residential delivery truck (USPS, UPS, FEDEX) 2 or
so times a week.

I would appreciate any help with how to improve the driveway so we won't
have to frequently re-gravel it and then have it go bad in the next long
spell of wet weather.

Thanks for any help. (Is there a better place I could ask this question?)
In addition to all the other advice you have been given, you need to be sure
the driveway is built up and properly smoothed and crowned so that water
will have a chance to run off. Your contractor needs to have a good
compactor and a motor grader to build a good driveway. Mine is about 25
years old and is still in good shape.

Don Young

On Mar 20, 5:13*pm, "Anthony" wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message

...
On Mar 20, 1:21 pm, wrote:

Yes. Your county highway department. A friendly conversation with the
chief engineer will tell you all you need to know. He will have the
skinny on your area relating to sources, prices and whatever else it
will take to make things more permanent and nearly maintenance free.
Maybe be a good guy and buy him lunch.

Joe,

I'm not out to start a flame war, but you made me LOL.

I work for our States Department of Transportation. One thing, which will
get someone canned in a hurry, is taking something even as small as a cup
of coffee, let alone a lunch. That is a no-no within all government.

Government pricing will not apply to individuals.

Good point, Anthony, but we do things differently in Illinois. G Of
course, any business luncheon invitation should be handled with
circumspection for all involved. Cheers,

Joe

In article
,
Joe wrote:

On Mar 20, 5:13*pm, "Anthony" wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message

...
On Mar 20, 1:21 pm, wrote:

Yes. Your county highway department. A friendly conversation with the
chief engineer will tell you all you need to know. He will have the
skinny on your area relating to sources, prices and whatever else it
will take to make things more permanent and nearly maintenance free.
Maybe be a good guy and buy him lunch.

Joe,

I'm not out to start a flame war, but you made me LOL.

I work for our States Department of Transportation. One thing, which will
get someone canned in a hurry, is taking something even as small as a cup
of coffee, let alone a lunch. That is a no-no within all government.

Government pricing will not apply to individuals.

Good point, Anthony, but we do things differently in Illinois. G Of
course, any business luncheon invitation should be handled with
circumspection for all involved. Cheers,

Joe

Finding an "escort" to go with you works wonders in almost any
environment. Smiles from hot chicks don't open doors, they blow doors
off hinges.

a neighbor got tired of regrading and adding gravel every few years.

so he had it dug out deep, had a low grade asphalt placed on it and
added a foot of gravel. after 20 years it looks like it was done
yesterday, and no extra taxes for asphalt or concerns about vehicle
oil leaks.

this worked great

Reading this thread, these are some things that have occured to me.
I'm not an expert on soil conditions in Virginia, but my job is in
road construction. So here goes:

1. The principal trouble is that there's no barrier between the
driveway and the sub-base. This allows mud to migrate into the
driveway aggregate and vice versa. A layer of geotextile fabric is
the best, most effective and least expensive way to provide that
barrier. Were it me, I'd look at woven versus non-woven fabric, but
that's entirely up to you. Expect to pay between 50 cents and a buck
per square yard of driveway surface, and the fabric comes in rolls
with widths of 12.5', 15' and 17.5'. You will have considerable
waste.

2. The aggregate for you driveway is, as another poster mentioned,
not the best for a road base. Round rocks roll against one another--
hey, that was alliteration! Anyway, if you're stuck with what you've
got, you need to amend the road base with some well-graded material,
i.e., some stuff with lots of different particle sizes. Around here,
#610 limestone with fines is the standard, but if you plan to reuse
what you have, I'd maybe try some #411 or something similar. The idea
is to have as few voids as possible between as widely varied particle
sizes as possible. A much less expensive, but less stable alternative
is to use sand/clay fill.

3. Your driveway or the soil under or next to it is holding water.
Take your pick on how to alleviate that problem.


Having said all that, here's what I think I would do, keeping budget
as the primary constraint: Dig up the existing drive and save the
rock. Pile it along side, whatever. Put down your fabric. Spread
the rock back out over the fabric, then put a thin layer (just an inch
or two) of sand atop the rock. Wash the sand into the rock with a
sprinkler (or let it rain or let it work its way in naturally) and
then do it again. And again, if needed. Since you only have 2 or 3
inches of gravel, probably twice is going to do it. This will provide
a reasonably stable matrix that will not leave ponds in ruts that
develop (which can be fixed easily by filling with gravel/sand mix)
and the geotex will keep migration to a minimum.

More expensive alternatives are a sand layer under the fabric, and
crushed limestone of varying grades in place of the sand washed into
the gravel.

Holy crap, that was long-winded. If you have more, or more specific
questions, I check in here a couple times a week, or you can email me
directly. I hope this helps you out.

Phil

On Mar 22, 10:20�pm, wrote:
Reading this thread, these are some things that have occured to me.
I'm not an expert on soil conditions in Virginia, but my job is in
road construction. �So here goes:

1. �The principal trouble is that there's no barrier between the
driveway and the sub-base. �This allows mud to migrate into the
driveway aggregate and vice versa. �A layer of geotextile fabric is
the best, most effective and least expensive way to provide that
barrier. �Were it me, I'd look at woven versus non-woven fabric, but
that's entirely up to you. �Expect to pay between 50 cents and a buck
per square yard of driveway surface, and the fabric comes in rolls
with widths of 12.5', 15' and 17.5'. �You will have considerable
waste.

2. �The aggregate for you driveway is, as another poster mentioned,
not the best for a road base. �Round rocks roll against one another--
hey, that was alliteration! �Anyway, if you're stuck with what you've
got, you need to amend the road base with some well-graded material,
i.e., some stuff with lots of different particle sizes. �Around here,
#610 limestone with fines is the standard, but if you plan to reuse
what you have, I'd maybe try some #411 or something similar. �The idea
is to have as few voids as possible between as widely varied particle
sizes as possible. �A much less expensive, but less stable alternative
is to use sand/clay fill.

3. �Your driveway or the soil under or next to it is holding water.

On Mar 22, 10:18*pm, bob haller wrote:


the fabric will rip easily as vehicles pass over top.

Bob,

Geotex comes in many shapes and sizes. That's like saying, "Joists
made of wood will crack." What kind of wood? What kind of joist?
See my point? We're using some stuff on a drainage structure (I think
it's Skaps W-315) that I'd twist into a rope and pull a semi with if I
needed to.

I'm not arguing that RAP (Recycled Asphalt Product) or 610 limestone
or concrete aren't really good answers. All of those, in fact, serve
as a better road than some geotex and river gravel. Your solution
could cost some pretty serious bucks. Mine can do nospam's 1/4 mile,
12-foot driveway for, let's see...about 3 grand in New Orleans
dollars, even with throwing in a load of rock (excluding labor and
equipment,but that's another discussion). If money's no object, I can
offer solutions that will hold up the Space Shuttle. With fabric :-)

Phil

On Mar 24, 7:31�pm, wrote:
On Mar 22, 10:18�pm, bob haller wrote:



the fabric will rip easily as vehicles pass over top.

Bob,

Geotex comes in many shapes and sizes. �That's like saying, "Joists
made of wood will crack." �What kind of wood? �What kind of joist?
See my point? �We're using some stuff on a drainage structure (I think
it's Skaps W-315) that I'd twist into a rope and pull a semi with if I
needed to.

I'm not arguing that RAP (Recycled Asphalt Product) or 610 limestone
or concrete aren't really good answers. �All of those, in fact, serve
as a better road than some geotex and river gravel. �Your solution
could cost some pretty serious bucks. �Mine can do nospam's 1/4 mile,
12-foot driveway for, let's see...about 3 grand in New Orleans
dollars, even with throwing in a load of rock (excluding labor and
equipment,but that's another discussion). �If money's no object, I can
offer solutions that will hold up the Space Shuttle. �With fabric :-)

Phil

a neighbor tried the geo cloth, it was very heavy. spent a fortune on
dig out and gravel.

in 3 years it was a muddy mess he gave up and had it asphalted.

unfortunately they barely dug it out, put in no sub base, trees are
sprouting in the asphalt. he uses vegatation killer

often its better to spend more money, do it right, do it once and
forget about it