krw wrote:

In article , alt.home.repair,
says...


Norminn wrote:


George Bush makes me wish we had Barry Goldwater in the White House.
And I'm a liberal )


Certainly Lyndon Johnson made millions wish for the same.



Very powerful that wish was too! ...still wishing Barry was
president, after forty something years.



I was actually a registered Republican back in those days. Hate to
admit it, considering what it
means now. Jerks like George Bush could give God a bad name. Almost.
Bush and all the phony
garbage like him who allege respect for life have made me a permanent
Independent. Reagan was
just about as phony, but nobody caught on. The real proof that our
educational system is in the sewer.

In article ,
Norminn wrote:
e made me a permanent
Independent. Reagan was
just about as phony, but nobody caught on. The real proof that our
educational system is in the sewer.

Without commenting on the rest of it, the educational system is and
always has been a local function. The feds, even to this day, have a
relatively small dog in this hunt.

krw wrote:

In article , alt.home.repair,
says...

krw wrote:


In article , alt.home.repair,
says...


krw wrote:


You're an idiot. Lieberman also wants to *WIN* the war in Iraq and
is 100% behind the President in his efforts. Are you all for that
too?

Sure. Doesn't everybody?


NO!



"WIN" is so amporhous a concept, it's something that everybody can get
behind.


No, apparently it's not. The democrats are fully invested in
losing, being the losers they are.



Nonsense.


No, it's not. It is obvious if you look at the nutcases leading
your party.

I'm not having a party. But if it's the Republicans party you mean,
then yes, there are a few nutcases in there.

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

Norminn wrote:

krw wrote:

In article , alt.home.repair,
says...


Norminn wrote:


George Bush makes me wish we had Barry Goldwater in the White
House. And I'm a liberal )


Certainly Lyndon Johnson made millions wish for the same.



Very powerful that wish was too! ...still wishing Barry was president,
after forty something years.



I was actually a registered Republican back in those days. Hate to
admit it, considering what it
means now. Jerks like George Bush could give God a bad name. Almost.
Bush and all the phony
garbage like him who allege respect for life have made me a permanent
Independent. Reagan was
just about as phony, but nobody caught on. The real proof that our
educational system is in the sewer.

I was a Republican back then, too. What a sad situation the GOP has become!

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

"krw" wrote in message
t...
In article , alt.home.repair,
says...
"krw" wrote in message
t...
In article , alt.home.repair,
says...
krw wrote:

You're an idiot. Lieberman also wants to *WIN* the war in Iraq and
is 100% behind the President in his efforts. Are you all for that
too?

Sure. Doesn't everybody?

NO!

"WIN" is so amporhous a concept, it's something that everybody can get
behind.

No, apparently it's not. The democrats are fully invested in
losing, being the losers they are.


--
Keith


Define "win", in your own terms. No web links, no cut & paste jobs.

Depends on the battle, but for Iraq it's pretty simple; Iraq
pacified. As far as the war goes, it's harder; perhaps every last
islamist dead?

--
Keith


Pacified? Nobody's been able to arrange that in the Middle East for at least
as long as I've been watching (early 1960s).

Islamist? Does that mean extremist, or anyone who's a Muslim?

"Kurt Ullman" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Norminn wrote:
e made me a permanent
Independent. Reagan was
just about as phony, but nobody caught on. The real proof that our
educational system is in the sewer.

Without commenting on the rest of it, the educational system is and
always has been a local function. The feds, even to this day, have a
relatively small dog in this hunt.


I'm always amused at people who make these broad statements about how our
educational system is in a shambles (see gfretwell's comments, for instance.
I wonder how many of these proclamations come from people who've never
bothered to raise hell in order to get things improved overnight in their
own school systems. I have. It's easy. Our school system is just fine.

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

"Kurt Ullman" wrote in message
...


In article ,
Norminn wrote:
e made me a permanent


Independent. Reagan was
just about as phony, but nobody caught on. The real proof that our
educational system is in the sewer.


Without commenting on the rest of it, the educational system is and
always has been a local function. The feds, even to this day, have a
relatively small dog in this hunt.




I'm always amused at people who make these broad statements about how our
educational system is in a shambles (see gfretwell's comments, for instance.
I wonder how many of these proclamations come from people who've never
bothered to raise hell in order to get things improved overnight in their
own school systems. I have. It's easy. Our school system is just fine.




I have experience with public school systems in three very different
locations. First, small town with some
great, dedicated teachers, but those were the exceptions. Time after
time, I've seen very intelligent kids
bored out of their minds because course work had no challenges. Parents
can't change a system that
doesn't want to change. The area where I live now has a very entrenched
"pass the buck" work ethic. Like
nothing I have seen before - anyone who excells is disposed of quickly.
The pass the buck mentality would
be funny if it wasn't so wasteful.

I graduated from a hospital-based nursing school. No college at all,
although we had a couple of college
instructors for tougher courses.

What I have seen throughout my work life is college grads - many
master's level - who cannot write or spell.
My parents' generation was much better educated after 8th grade than
college grads are now. More and more,
education is geared toward technical skills for jobs.

One of the best books I've read was David McCullough's biography of John
Adams. John Quincy Adams was
reading philosophy and latin at age 11, in preparation for entering
Harvard at age 16. Folks any more have no
idea of what is possible in education, and there sure as hell aren't any
teachers around teaching latin and philosophy
in grade school. What passed for a "book report" when my kids were in
school was a tragedy. I wrote a thirty-page
report on diabetes when I was in 8th grade. My kids didn't have work
that tough in college.

Raise hell? With whom? A teacher who can't spell and doesn't give a damn?

wrote:

On Fri, 04 Jan 2008 20:00:46 -0500, Kurt Ullman
wrote:

\.

Without commenting on the rest of it, the educational system is and
always has been a local function. The feds, even to this day, have a
relatively small dog in this hunt.


Our education is in the sewer for the same reason the auto industrey
is in the sewer. Their union created a top heavy structure where
seniority had more value than competence and most of the money went to
the least productive.

Education is in the sewer because a bunch of holier-than-thou's think
science is a threat to society, and that it's more important for little
Johnny to play football (and for Susie to get laid by the quarterback)
than it is for them to study.

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

wrote:

On Sun, 06 Jan 2008 00:33:28 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:


"Kurt Ullman" wrote in message
...

In article ,
Norminn wrote:
e made me a permanent

Independent. Reagan was
just about as phony, but nobody caught on. The real proof that our
educational system is in the sewer.

Without commenting on the rest of it, the educational system is and
always has been a local function. The feds, even to this day, have a
relatively small dog in this hunt.


I'm always amused at people who make these broad statements about how our
educational system is in a shambles (see gfretwell's comments, for instance.
I wonder how many of these proclamations come from people who've never
bothered to raise hell in order to get things improved overnight in their
own school systems. I have. It's easy. Our school system is just fine.



Right now our local school board is spending right at $20,000 per
student and the results can be called mediocre at best based on just
about any measure you can think of (college admissions, test scores,
graduation rate etc)

I assume you've brought that up at PTA meetings and have volunteered
to work toward improvements?

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 06 Jan 2008 00:33:28 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:

"Kurt Ullman" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Norminn wrote:
e made me a permanent
Independent. Reagan was
just about as phony, but nobody caught on. The real proof that our
educational system is in the sewer.

Without commenting on the rest of it, the educational system is and
always has been a local function. The feds, even to this day, have a
relatively small dog in this hunt.


I'm always amused at people who make these broad statements about how our
educational system is in a shambles (see gfretwell's comments, for
instance.
I wonder how many of these proclamations come from people who've never
bothered to raise hell in order to get things improved overnight in their
own school systems. I have. It's easy. Our school system is just fine.


Right now our local school board is spending right at $20,000 per
student and the results can be called mediocre at best based on just
about any measure you can think of (college admissions, test scores,
graduation rate etc)



I'll bet you've never walked into school without an appointment and
***TOLD*** the principal you intend to sit in a few classes. Remember that
you are THE CUSTOMER, and the school personnel are YOUR EMPLOYEES. Don't
ever forget that.

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 06 Jan 2008 02:27:17 GMT, CJT wrote:




Right now our local school board is spending right at $20,000 per
student and the results can be called mediocre at best based on just
about any measure you can think of (college admissions, test scores,
graduation rate etc)

I assume you've brought that up at PTA meetings and have volunteered
to work toward improvements?

--
I have slammed into the brick wall of politics. I was active in the
group that threw out the god squad school board but that didn't stop
the entrenched bureaucracy, reduce administrative costs or get the
union to allow them to get rid of bad teachers. They just bring them
downtown and make them administrators.Their administratine staff is so
big now they had to buy a whole shopping mall to house them. After 10
years of fighting the system I just gave up.


I knew it.

The dregs of society usually end up in one or more of the following:

1) Motor vehicle bureau
2) School administration
3) Running a boy scout troop
4) Church committees

The only way to deal with them is to use shock, shame and humiliation.

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 06 Jan 2008 03:36:17 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:

I'll bet you've never walked into school without an appointment and
***TOLD*** the principal you intend to sit in a few classes. Remember that
you are THE CUSTOMER, and the school personnel are YOUR EMPLOYEES. Don't
ever forget that.

I stayed on them while my kid was in school but I am not as active
now. The problem is in the whole culture of the educational
establishment. It is virtually all made of of people who went to
school when they were 5 years old and never left.
Any challenge to their power or budgets automatically makes you
"against the children". The solution to everything is "more money".
Right now the best secular private school in town is quite a bit
cheaper than what we pay for public school students.


That's weird. I've never experienced these things, and our school district's
nothing fancy. But, this is NY, where everything sucks and taxes are too
high, according to people who've never been here. We do have certain
expectations of our schools, though.

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

wrote in message
...

On Sun, 06 Jan 2008 03:36:17 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:


I'll bet you've never walked into school without an appointment and
***TOLD*** the principal you intend to sit in a few classes. Remember that
you are THE CUSTOMER, and the school personnel are YOUR EMPLOYEES. Don't
ever forget that.

I stayed on them while my kid was in school but I am not as active
now. The problem is in the whole culture of the educational
establishment. It is virtually all made of of people who went to
school when they were 5 years old and never left.
Any challenge to their power or budgets automatically makes you
"against the children". The solution to everything is "more money".
Right now the best secular private school in town is quite a bit
cheaper than what we pay for public school students.



That's weird. I've never experienced these things, and our school district's
nothing fancy. But, this is NY, where everything sucks and taxes are too
high, according to people who've never been here. We do have certain
expectations of our schools, though.


We had some fundamentalists take over our school system briefly, but
some publicity and an election cured that. Our schools aren't perfect,
but they're nothing like what's being described here. In fact, a
college admissions officer told us the high school my daughters went
to is among the best in the country, and I don't think he was blowing
smoke. I credit a high level of parental interest and involvement.

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

I'm always amused at people who make these broad statements about how
our educational system is in a shambles (see gfretwell's comments,
for instance. I wonder how many of these proclamations come from
people who've never bothered to raise hell in order to get things
improved overnight in their own school systems. I have. It's easy.
Our school system is just fine.

Some observations:
1. "Education" is the only discipline in which one can earn a terminal
degree without knowledge of a foreign language.
2. The school district in which I live is the largest in a large state.
Teachers make up 40% of the employees. Sure, you've got to have bus drivers
and people to print paychecks, but is it reasonable to have less than half
of your staff doing what the organization is supposed to be doing?
3. I taught high school physics and chemistry. I had more math courses under
my belt than the 11 math teachers in the school. Combined.
4. Once upon a time I did a little research. The following were NOT legally
qualified to teach in the public schools of my state:

A. All living Nobel Laureates.
B. All living winner of the Pulitzer Prize.
C. All winners of the Fields Medal
D. All winners of the Edgar, Hugo, Caldecott or similar literary prize.
E. All members of the federal appellate judiciary.
F. All living ex-presidents.
G. All of the members of the U.S. Senate that I could check.

No, the education system in the U.S. is broken - the inmates are in charge
of the asylum.

On Sun, 06 Jan 2008 03:36:17 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:

I'll bet you've never walked into school without an appointment and
***TOLD*** the principal you intend to sit in a few classes. Remember that
you are THE CUSTOMER, and the school personnel are YOUR EMPLOYEES. Don't
ever forget that.


School Admin. usually sings two songs;

The first is;
"You ( parents ) need to get involved in school functions"

BUT

If you do start to get involved, the song becomes;
"Leave school functions to us... we are the professionals"

( been there....done that...gave up )
rj

"RJ" wrote in message
...

On Sun, 06 Jan 2008 03:36:17 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:

I'll bet you've never walked into school without an appointment and
***TOLD*** the principal you intend to sit in a few classes. Remember
that
you are THE CUSTOMER, and the school personnel are YOUR EMPLOYEES. Don't
ever forget that.


School Admin. usually sings two songs;

The first is;
"You ( parents ) need to get involved in school functions"

BUT

If you do start to get involved, the song becomes;
"Leave school functions to us... we are the professionals"

( been there....done that...gave up )
rj


Bull****. School functions? To me, that means "things that go on at school",
like sports & musical events. Except at the elementary school level, there
usually aren't "functions" involving academics, where parents are INVITED to
get involved. PTA meetings? They don't help a kid who's having problems with
math RIGHT NOW, and needs to get help RIGHT NOW, or suffer for the rest of
the school year.

What parents CAN do is ask lots of questions at home, to get a sense of
whether kids are actually learning new things, and whether they're being
taught to think and learn on their own. If not, parents can individually
arrange for the principal and teacher(s) to experience aggravation and
humiliation. Unfortunately though, you can't get a teacher replaced quickly
under the best of circumstances, so by the time a bad teacher is dumped, the
school year might be almost over and your kid's already damaged. What's a
parent to do?

Teach the kid yourself, at home, or find a tutor. If the kid's having
trouble getting over a small bump in the learning process, see if the kid
can spend a little after school time with a different teacher of the same
subject. Do anything, but don't do nothing. I wasn't happy with my kid's
English teacher in 9th grade, so I went over his written assignments every
single day, explaining why certain things looked clumsy less than
professional. He was an excellent speaker, but he wasn't transferring it to
the written page and the teacher was letting him get away with it. Spending
this time with him meant the pots & pans didn't always get washed the same
night they were used. Oh well.

If you can't find a tutor through the school, call the appropriate
department at another school system, or at a nearby college. My kid needed a
little help with physics, because his otherwise excellent teacher couldn't
explain a few things in a way that worked for my kid. We ended up spending a
few hours with the head of the physics department at a college. Problem
solved.

If you don't know your kid well enough to have a sense of when he/she is
feeling shaky about something, you're a low-life who probably spent too much
time watching TV instead of talking to your kid from birth onward. Don't
blame everything on the school.

"HeyBub" wrote in message
...
JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

I'm always amused at people who make these broad statements about how
our educational system is in a shambles (see gfretwell's comments,
for instance. I wonder how many of these proclamations come from
people who've never bothered to raise hell in order to get things
improved overnight in their own school systems. I have. It's easy.
Our school system is just fine.

Some observations:
1. "Education" is the only discipline in which one can earn a terminal
degree without knowledge of a foreign language.
2. The school district in which I live is the largest in a large state.
Teachers make up 40% of the employees. Sure, you've got to have bus
drivers and people to print paychecks, but is it reasonable to have less
than half of your staff doing what the organization is supposed to be
doing?
3. I taught high school physics and chemistry. I had more math courses
under my belt than the 11 math teachers in the school. Combined.
4. Once upon a time I did a little research. The following were NOT
legally qualified to teach in the public schools of my state:

A. All living Nobel Laureates.
B. All living winner of the Pulitzer Prize.
C. All winners of the Fields Medal
D. All winners of the Edgar, Hugo, Caldecott or similar literary prize.
E. All members of the federal appellate judiciary.
F. All living ex-presidents.
G. All of the members of the U.S. Senate that I could check.

No, the education system in the U.S. is broken - the inmates are in charge
of the asylum.


I'll present a simpler theory:

If you meet both of these qualifications, you are an incompetent parent:

1) You have kids in school anywhere from K through 12

2) You have time to watch one or more programs on prime time TV

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"Kurt Ullman" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:

Back up your claim NOW. I want numbers all the way back to the beginning
of
JFK's administration, and I want them broken down by branch of service.
That
last thing is very important.

If you are really interested in the former, those are easily
available on the web at the Statistical Abstract of the US. The latter,
also but you will probably have to go to a Government Printing Office
depository library.


clifto the great historian made the claim, so he can dig up the info and
present it here, if he's serious.

Thanks, but when it's trivial, help thyself. As for your detailed breakdown,
I want breakfast in bed.

--
Dec. 6 (Bloomberg) -- Government officials and activists flying to Bali,
Indonesia, for the United Nations meeting on climate change will cause
as much pollution as 20,000 cars in a year.

RJ wrote:
School Admin. usually sings two songs;

The first is;
"You ( parents ) need to get involved in school functions"

BUT

If you do start to get involved, the song becomes;
"Leave school functions to us... we are the professionals"

That's because you didn't grasp their real meaning:

"We need you to do the work of educating your kids, so we can have more time
for indoctrination."

--
Dec. 6 (Bloomberg) -- Government officials and activists flying to Bali,
Indonesia, for the United Nations meeting on climate change will cause
as much pollution as 20,000 cars in a year.

"clifto" wrote in message
...
JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"Kurt Ullman" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:

Back up your claim NOW. I want numbers all the way back to the
beginning
of
JFK's administration, and I want them broken down by branch of service.
That
last thing is very important.

If you are really interested in the former, those are easily
available on the web at the Statistical Abstract of the US. The latter,
also but you will probably have to go to a Government Printing Office
depository library.


clifto the great historian made the claim, so he can dig up the info and
present it here, if he's serious.

Thanks, but when it's trivial, help thyself. As for your detailed
breakdown,
I want breakfast in bed.



I knew you had absolutely nothing.

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 06 Jan 2008 13:55:35 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:

School Admin. usually sings two songs;

The first is;
"You ( parents ) need to get involved in school functions"

BUT

If you do start to get involved, the song becomes;
"Leave school functions to us... we are the professionals"

( been there....done that...gave up )
rj


Bull****. School functions? To me, that means "things that go on at
school",
like sports & musical events. Except at the elementary school level, there
usually aren't "functions" involving academics, where parents are INVITED
to
get involved. PTA meetings? They don't help a kid who's having problems
with
math RIGHT NOW, and needs to get help RIGHT NOW, or suffer for the rest of
the school year.

What parents CAN do is ask lots of questions at home, to get a sense of
whether kids are actually learning new things, and whether they're being
taught to think and learn on their own. If not, parents can individually
arrange for the principal and teacher(s) to experience aggravation and
humiliation. Unfortunately though, you can't get a teacher replaced
quickly
under the best of circumstances, so by the time a bad teacher is dumped,
the
school year might be almost over and your kid's already damaged. What's a
parent to do?


When my kid was having problems with her grades I went in there and
talked to them. They said she would get "help" and they did make her
grades improve. She was on the honor roll for the last 3 years she was
in high school.

When she got to college she took almost an entire year of remedial
classes to learn what a high school student was supposed to know.


Did any of those remedial classes involve language skills?

HeyBub wrote:

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:


I'm always amused at people who make these broad statements about how
our educational system is in a shambles (see gfretwell's comments,
for instance. I wonder how many of these proclamations come from
people who've never bothered to raise hell in order to get things
improved overnight in their own school systems. I have. It's easy.
Our school system is just fine.


Some observations:
1. "Education" is the only discipline in which one can earn a terminal
degree without knowledge of a foreign language.

I doubt that's generally the case. Just because one university makes
that decision doesn't mean they all do.

2. The school district in which I live is the largest in a large state.
Teachers make up 40% of the employees. Sure, you've got to have bus drivers
and people to print paychecks, but is it reasonable to have less than half
of your staff doing what the organization is supposed to be doing?

Clearly it would be good to have a higher percentage of teachers. But
schools today have to deal with No Child Left Behind.

3. I taught high school physics and chemistry. I had more math courses under
my belt than the 11 math teachers in the school. Combined.

Kudos to you, but that's not an indictment of education in general -- at
most, it's an indictment of your school.

4. Once upon a time I did a little research. The following were NOT legally
qualified to teach in the public schools of my state:

A. All living Nobel Laureates.
B. All living winner of the Pulitzer Prize.
C. All winners of the Fields Medal
D. All winners of the Edgar, Hugo, Caldecott or similar literary prize.
E. All members of the federal appellate judiciary.
F. All living ex-presidents.
G. All of the members of the U.S. Senate that I could check.

Sure. Those folks don't have teaching certificates. But they clearly
could get them. If teachers got better pay, more folks of that caliber
might.


No, the education system in the U.S. is broken - the inmates are in charge
of the asylum.






--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

clifto wrote:

RJ wrote:

School Admin. usually sings two songs;

The first is;
"You ( parents ) need to get involved in school functions"

BUT

If you do start to get involved, the song becomes;
"Leave school functions to us... we are the professionals"


That's because you didn't grasp their real meaning:

"We need you to do the work of educating your kids, so we can have more time
for indoctrination."

ROTFL! Where do you get this stuff? I thought the writers were on strike!

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

"JC" wrote:
"nick hull" wrote:
Oren wrote:
wrote:

How do I keep a candidate out of my wallet?

That would be Ron Paul

Or so he says?

So he acts; he never voted for a tax increase.

He's my congressman and don't think for a minute
that he don't do his share of earmarks.

It's pretty tough to get reelected if you don't
bring home the bacon! The Income Tax has
only been around since 1913. If we turn back
the clock to 1912, it'll be a whole new ball game.
Are any candidates besides Ron Paul calling for
the removal of the Income Tax?
..
..
--

In article
,
"(David P.)" wrote:

"JC" wrote:
"nick hull" wrote:
Oren wrote:
wrote:

How do I keep a candidate out of my wallet?

That would be Ron Paul

Or so he says?

So he acts; he never voted for a tax increase.

He's my congressman and don't think for a minute
that he don't do his share of earmarks.

It's pretty tough to get reelected if you don't
bring home the bacon! The Income Tax has
only been around since 1913. If we turn back
the clock to 1912, it'll be a whole new ball game.
Are any candidates besides Ron Paul calling for
the removal of the Income Tax?
.
.
--

Short of a balanced budget and/or line item veto constitutional
amendment, I don't see how the type of tax will make any difference in
this area. Nothing in the flat tax that says Congress can't overspend.

"(David P.)" wrote in message
...
"JC" wrote:
"nick hull" wrote:
Oren wrote:
wrote:

How do I keep a candidate out of my wallet?

That would be Ron Paul

Or so he says?

So he acts; he never voted for a tax increase.

He's my congressman and don't think for a minute
that he don't do his share of earmarks.

It's pretty tough to get reelected if you don't
bring home the bacon! The Income Tax has
only been around since 1913. If we turn back
the clock to 1912, it'll be a whole new ball game.
Are any candidates besides Ron Paul calling for
the removal of the Income Tax?


I haven't followed his plan. How does he suggest we pay for things like
highways?

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:
"(David P.)" wrote:

It's pretty tough to get reelected if you don't
bring home the bacon! The Income Tax has
only been around since 1913. If we turn back
the clock to 1912, it'll be a whole new ball game.
Are any candidates besides Ron Paul calling for
the removal of the Income Tax?

I haven't followed his plan. How does he suggest
we pay for things like highways?

Gotta cut bloated bureaucracies!
..
..
--

Kurt Ullman wrote:
"(David P.)" wrote:

It's pretty tough to get reelected if you don't
bring home the bacon! The Income Tax has
only been around since 1913. If we turn back
the clock to 1912, it'll be a whole new ball game.
Are any candidates besides Ron Paul calling for
the removal of the Income Tax?

Short of a balanced budget and/or line item veto constitutional
amendment, I don't see how the type of tax will make any difference in
this area. Nothing in the flat tax that says Congress can't overspend.

It would be a lot simpler than the ol' 1040!
..
..
--

"(David P.)" wrote in message
...
"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:
"(David P.)" wrote:

It's pretty tough to get reelected if you don't
bring home the bacon! The Income Tax has
only been around since 1913. If we turn back
the clock to 1912, it'll be a whole new ball game.
Are any candidates besides Ron Paul calling for
the removal of the Income Tax?

I haven't followed his plan. How does he suggest
we pay for things like highways?

Gotta cut bloated bureaucracies!


That's not much of an answer.

On Mon, 07 Jan 2008 12:40:44 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom"
wrote:

"(David P.)" wrote in message
...
It's pretty tough to get reelected if you don't
bring home the bacon! The Income Tax has
only been around since 1913. If we turn back
the clock to 1912, it'll be a whole new ball game.
Are any candidates besides Ron Paul calling for
the removal of the Income Tax?

I haven't followed his plan. How does he suggest we pay for things like
highways?

He doesn't address such niceties, from what I've seen. His website is
useless, full of banal platitudes that say nothing.

On Jan 7, 9:42 am, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:
"(David P.)" wrote in message

...

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:
"(David P.)" wrote:

It's pretty tough to get reelected if you don't
bring home the bacon! The Income Tax has
only been around since 1913. If we turn back
the clock to 1912, it'll be a whole new ball game.
Are any candidates besides Ron Paul calling for
the removal of the Income Tax?

I haven't followed his plan. How does he suggest
we pay for things like highways?

Gotta cut bloated bureaucracies!

That's not much of an answer.

This just in: Paul and Huckabee both like the
Flat Consumption Tax.
..
..
--

On Mon, 7 Jan 2008 06:51:39 -0800 (PST), "(David P.)"
wrote:

On Jan 7, 9:42 am, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:
"(David P.)" wrote in message

...

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:
"(David P.)" wrote:

It's pretty tough to get reelected if you don't
bring home the bacon! The Income Tax has
only been around since 1913. If we turn back
the clock to 1912, it'll be a whole new ball game.
Are any candidates besides Ron Paul calling for
the removal of the Income Tax?

I haven't followed his plan. How does he suggest
we pay for things like highways?

Gotta cut bloated bureaucracies!

That's not much of an answer.

This just in: Paul and Huckabee both like the
Flat Consumption Tax.

Of course, those people always like the most regressive taxes as they
don't care about the actual impact of the taxes on real people,
looking only at the numbers to make sure they're "fair."

In article
,
"(David P.)" wrote:

Kurt Ullman wrote:
"(David P.)" wrote:

It's pretty tough to get reelected if you don't
bring home the bacon! The Income Tax has
only been around since 1913. If we turn back
the clock to 1912, it'll be a whole new ball game.
Are any candidates besides Ron Paul calling for
the removal of the Income Tax?

Short of a balanced budget and/or line item veto constitutional
amendment, I don't see how the type of tax will make any difference in
this area. Nothing in the flat tax that says Congress can't overspend.

It would be a lot simpler than the ol' 1040!
..
--
For a week or two before the next campaign cycle requires them to
raise money for campaigning (g).

KLS wrote:

Of course, those people always like the most regressive taxes as they
don't care about the actual impact of the taxes on real people,
looking only at the numbers to make sure they're "fair."

If we want a "fair" tax, regressive taxes are the way to go. Poor people use
more services. It's only fair.

Well, what if a poor person doesn't HAVE the money to pay their "fair" tax?

They can give blood platelets. At, say, $300 credit per unit, once per
month, they could have their annual per capita tax of $3000 paid for in less
than a year. Sorta like withholding.

But what about the mother of 4, each child under the age of six! It would be
cruel to extract a unit of platelets from an infant!

Absolutely!

But the mother is responsible, so what to do? She could contribute a kidney.
At a price of $65,000 she could pay the taxes for her entire brood for five
years. After five years, she could donate a cornea. Same deal. After another
five years, her offspring would be entering the breeding market and the
process could start anew.

No, in the words of Ronald Reagan, those who think there are no easy
solutions just haven't tried hard enough.

"HeyBub" wrote in message
...
KLS wrote:

Of course, those people always like the most regressive taxes as they
don't care about the actual impact of the taxes on real people,
looking only at the numbers to make sure they're "fair."

If we want a "fair" tax, regressive taxes are the way to go. Poor people
use more services. It's only fair.

Well, what if a poor person doesn't HAVE the money to pay their "fair"
tax?

They can give blood platelets. At, say, $300 credit per unit, once per
month, they could have their annual per capita tax of $3000 paid for in
less than a year. Sorta like withholding.

But what about the mother of 4, each child under the age of six! It would
be cruel to extract a unit of platelets from an infant!

Absolutely!

But the mother is responsible, so what to do? She could contribute a
kidney. At a price of $65,000 she could pay the taxes for her entire brood
for five years. After five years, she could donate a cornea. Same deal.
After another five years, her offspring would be entering the breeding
market and the process could start anew.

No, in the words of Ronald Reagan, those who think there are no easy
solutions just haven't tried hard enough.


You are a living example of why waterboarding is a good idea.

In article ,
"HeyBub" wrote:

KLS wrote:

Of course, those people always like the most regressive taxes as they
don't care about the actual impact of the taxes on real people,
looking only at the numbers to make sure they're "fair."

If we want a "fair" tax, regressive taxes are the way to go. Poor people use
more services. It's only fair.


All of the Fair Tax proposals have credits (mostly paid monthly,
sorta like a refund check) given for spending up to the poverty line, or
possibly above, to address these concerns. Now how well they address it
open to discussion, ; demogogary. and all the general ups and down of
political "discourse".



But the mother is responsible, so what to do? She could contribute a kidney.
At a price of $65,000 she could pay the taxes for her entire brood for five
years. After five years, she could donate a cornea. Same deal. After another
five years, her offspring would be entering the breeding market and the
process could start anew.
See the part about demogogary above

On Jan 7, 7:51*am, "(David P.)" wrote:
On Jan 7, 9:42 am, "JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:





"(David P.)" wrote in message

...

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:
"(David P.)" wrote:

It's pretty tough to get reelected if you don't
bring home the bacon! * The Income Tax has
only been around since 1913. *If we turn back
the clock to 1912, it'll be a whole new ball game.
Are any candidates besides Ron Paul calling for
the removal of the Income Tax?

I haven't followed his plan. How does he suggest
we pay for things like highways?

Gotta cut bloated bureaucracies!

That's not much of an answer.

This just in: Paul and Huckabee both like the
Flat Consumption Tax.
.
.
--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


It's been suggested for a long time. Hard to sell:



http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?...29239937418232


They all campaign on "Taxing the rich". You could take everything
from Gates, Buffet and several others and it would not pay for one day
of the congressional retirment plan.

Every plan they propose taxes the working man making US products more
expensive and imports cheaper. Result is that more and more
businesses fail or go outside the country. Soon the American car
manufactures will do like the Japanese. Have all the parts made
outside the country, bring them in by shipping containers and let a
robot put them together while watched by a union worker. Then
advertise "Made in America with Union labor" and the public will
believe it.

Their next goal is to get that NAFTA superhighway built so they don't
have to pay the "outrageous salaries" (including all the income and
social security taxes they pay) of American dock workers or truck
drivers.

Other countries have consumption tax (VAT). They do not apply it on
their exports to the US but full tax on US products sold there.

I dislike consumption tax but it is the only way to compete with other
countries and it is probably the easiest to control cheating.

CJT wrote:
Some observations:
1. "Education" is the only discipline in which one can earn a
terminal degree without knowledge of a foreign language.

I doubt that's generally the case. Just because one university makes
that decision doesn't mean they all do.

Easy to check. You just have to find one discipline.


2. The school district in which I live is the largest in a large
state. Teachers make up 40% of the employees. Sure, you've got to
have bus drivers and people to print paychecks, but is it reasonable
to have less than half of your staff doing what the organization is
supposed to be doing?

Clearly it would be good to have a higher percentage of teachers. But
schools today have to deal with No Child Left Behind.

And the reason "NCLB" exists is because....?


3. I taught high school physics and chemistry. I had more math
courses under my belt than the 11 math teachers in the school.
Combined.

Kudos to you, but that's not an indictment of education in general --
at most, it's an indictment of your school.

Well, I cheated. I had a master's in Match and the math teachers were, in
most cases, education majors.


4. Once upon a time I did a little research. The following were NOT
legally qualified to teach in the public schools of my state:

A. All living Nobel Laureates.
B. All living winner of the Pulitzer Prize.
C. All winners of the Fields Medal
D. All winners of the Edgar, Hugo, Caldecott or similar literary
prize. E. All members of the federal appellate judiciary.
F. All living ex-presidents.
G. All of the members of the U.S. Senate that I could check.

Sure. Those folks don't have teaching certificates. But they clearly
could get them. If teachers got better pay, more folks of that
caliber might.

Yeah, but why would they WANT to? Consider a retired PhD in Chemical
Engineering. He's got about 22 years of classroom experience (as a student)
plus, as a graduate student, he's probably taught undergraduate classes at
the university. Does he really need a class in "Advanced Blackboard
Technique" or "Compreshensive Lesson Plans"?

So the school district has the football coach teach chemistry. Bah!

Better pay? Surely you jest.

I got to talking to the Walmart "Greeter," your standard old coot, on a
recent trip. He works four hours, three days a week, just to keep busy. I
asked him what he did before he retired; he was a large-building architect,
and designed many of the office buildings in my town. Does anyone have any
doubt he could teach high school plane geometry off the top of his head? Or
Algebra? Or even Physics?

Could a retired physician or registered nurse teach high school biology
without cracking the text?

Professionals such as physicians, chemists, surveyors, electrical engineers,
et al, don't live in a vacuum or a cave. They TEACH (patients, customers,
users, their boss) every day.

And so on.



No, the education system in the U.S. is broken - the inmates are in
charge of the asylum.

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

No, in the words of Ronald Reagan, those who think there are no easy
solutions just haven't tried hard enough.


You are a living example of why waterboarding is a good idea.

Right. I'm in favor of waterboarding.

(David P.) wrote:

Kurt Ullman wrote:

"(David P.)" wrote:


It's pretty tough to get reelected if you don't
bring home the bacon! The Income Tax has
only been around since 1913. If we turn back
the clock to 1912, it'll be a whole new ball game.
Are any candidates besides Ron Paul calling for
the removal of the Income Tax?

Short of a balanced budget and/or line item veto constitutional
amendment, I don't see how the type of tax will make any difference in
this area. Nothing in the flat tax that says Congress can't overspend.


It would be a lot simpler than the ol' 1040!
.
.
--
Applying it to real estate would certainly shake things up.

--
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