"Dave Bugg" wrote in message
...
JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"Dave Bugg" wrote in message
news
Dan S. wrote:
shiite explained on 12/9/2007 :
Dear Captain Billy Non Sequitor,
1. Your assumptions about my attitude toward illegals, Mexican or
otherwise, are dead wrong. I have compassion for anyone from
anywhere doing what he can to survive.
My contempt is reserved for the politicians and employers who
enable.

Not to dumb down the argument too much, but aren't employers doing
what they can to survive and don't you believe a number of them
would fold without their immigrant help? Why don't they deserve
compassion rather than contempt?

That argument might apply to anything that a business chooses to do
illegally.


Is there any way you can find yourself among a small group of 16-18
year old kids, and ask them if they'd be interested in working in 90
degree heat, harvesting broccoli, swinging a sharp knife around near
their ankles? Try it. I did. It was enlightening.

My dad owned an apple and cherry orchard in central washington state. Hot,
dry climate. I worked cherry, apricot, pear and apple harvests in junior
high and high school, and while attending college. I dare say I'm far more
enlightened regarding agricultural labor and business than you are.

The fact that you did that kind of work is not logically connected in any
known way to what other teenagers are willing to do. I once asked several of
my son's friends this question and received less than enthusiastic
responses. These weren't especially priveleged kids, either. They just
didn't see farm work as something they would do. That's not to say that a
trend couldn't be created, but as of a year ago, the response was "Nah...".


If you're going to respond with something about how machines could do
the work,...

Not an issue. The H-2B temporary visa program allows ag employers to bring
in as many laborers as are needed. The orchadists and farmers don't like
the program because it forces them to comply with the federal Migrant and
Seasonal Agricultural Worker Protection Act (MSPA). It requires proper
paperwork, bookeeping and recordkeeping, and costs much more money than
illegally hiring non-resident workers.
Dave


Many people in this country attach a stigma to legal migrants, too.

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"Dave Bugg" wrote in message
...
JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"Dave Bugg" wrote in message
news Dan S. wrote:
shiite explained on 12/9/2007 :
Dear Captain Billy Non Sequitor,
1. Your assumptions about my attitude toward illegals, Mexican or
otherwise, are dead wrong. I have compassion for anyone from
anywhere doing what he can to survive.
My contempt is reserved for the politicians and employers who
enable.

Not to dumb down the argument too much, but aren't employers doing
what they can to survive and don't you believe a number of them
would fold without their immigrant help? Why don't they deserve
compassion rather than contempt?

That argument might apply to anything that a business chooses to do
illegally.


Is there any way you can find yourself among a small group of 16-18
year old kids, and ask them if they'd be interested in working in 90
degree heat, harvesting broccoli, swinging a sharp knife around near
their ankles? Try it. I did. It was enlightening.

My dad owned an apple and cherry orchard in central washington
state. Hot, dry climate. I worked cherry, apricot, pear and apple
harvests in junior high and high school, and while attending
college. I dare say I'm far more enlightened regarding agricultural
labor and business than you are.

The fact that you did that kind of work is not logically connected in
any known way to what other teenagers are willing to do.

And why would this be the exclusive province of teens? The fact is that a
lot of teens DO earn money in the fields and orchards. My own two boys join
hundreds of others, just in our small area, to work in agriculture during
the spring and summer and fall.

I once asked
several of my son's friends this question and received less than
enthusiastic responses. These weren't especially priveleged kids,
either. They just didn't see farm work as something they would do.
That's not to say that a trend couldn't be created, but as of a year
ago, the response was "Nah...".

The fact that you did a selective poll is not logically connected in any
known way with what other teens may or may not do.

If you're going to respond with something about how machines could
do the work,...

Not an issue. The H-2B temporary visa program allows ag employers to
bring in as many laborers as are needed. The orchadists and farmers
don't like the program because it forces them to comply with the
federal Migrant and Seasonal Agricultural Worker Protection Act
(MSPA). It requires proper paperwork, bookeeping and recordkeeping,
and costs much more money than illegally hiring non-resident workers.
Dave


Many people in this country attach a stigma to legal migrants, too.

And this has to do with what I wrote.... how? The point is, that agriculture
has the ability to use the H-2B program to bring in as many temporary
migrant workers as they need during pruning, harvest, packing, etc. There is
no need for illegals to be working in agriculture.

--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

On Sun, 9 Dec 2007 14:52:29 -0800, "Dave Bugg"
wrote:

And this has to do with what I wrote.... how? The point is, that agriculture
has the ability to use the H-2B program to bring in as many temporary
migrant workers as they need during pruning, harvest, packing, etc. There is
no need for illegals to be working in agriculture.

Dave is right, and the New York agriculture industry relies heavily on
these H-2B program workers. We even have a health clinic in our
region (Finger Lakes) that works with these people.

"Dave Bugg" wrote in message
...
JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"Dave Bugg" wrote in message
...
JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"Dave Bugg" wrote in message
news Dan S. wrote:
shiite explained on 12/9/2007 :
Dear Captain Billy Non Sequitor,
1. Your assumptions about my attitude toward illegals, Mexican or
otherwise, are dead wrong. I have compassion for anyone from
anywhere doing what he can to survive.
My contempt is reserved for the politicians and employers who
enable.

Not to dumb down the argument too much, but aren't employers doing
what they can to survive and don't you believe a number of them
would fold without their immigrant help? Why don't they deserve
compassion rather than contempt?

That argument might apply to anything that a business chooses to do
illegally.


Is there any way you can find yourself among a small group of 16-18
year old kids, and ask them if they'd be interested in working in 90
degree heat, harvesting broccoli, swinging a sharp knife around near
their ankles? Try it. I did. It was enlightening.

My dad owned an apple and cherry orchard in central washington
state. Hot, dry climate. I worked cherry, apricot, pear and apple
harvests in junior high and high school, and while attending
college. I dare say I'm far more enlightened regarding agricultural
labor and business than you are.

The fact that you did that kind of work is not logically connected in
any known way to what other teenagers are willing to do.

And why would this be the exclusive province of teens? The fact is that a
lot of teens DO earn money in the fields and orchards. My own two boys
join hundreds of others, just in our small area, to work in agriculture
during the spring and summer and fall.

I once asked
several of my son's friends this question and received less than
enthusiastic responses. These weren't especially priveleged kids,
either. They just didn't see farm work as something they would do.
That's not to say that a trend couldn't be created, but as of a year
ago, the response was "Nah...".

The fact that you did a selective poll is not logically connected in any
known way with what other teens may or may not do.



In some places, the poll is a pretty good indicator of the lack of a labor
pool available to farmers. Where I live, we're 10-30 minutes from lots of
farmland. Kids drive that far to work at malls, golf courses & restaurants,
so distance isn't an issue. They just see farm work as alien to them. Small
apple orchards here tend to use local help, but the biggest ones still use
imported labor, some of it illegal.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=16981143

"KLS" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 9 Dec 2007 14:52:29 -0800, "Dave Bugg"
wrote:

And this has to do with what I wrote.... how? The point is, that
agriculture
has the ability to use the H-2B program to bring in as many temporary
migrant workers as they need during pruning, harvest, packing, etc. There
is
no need for illegals to be working in agriculture.

Dave is right, and the New York agriculture industry relies heavily on
these H-2B program workers. We even have a health clinic in our
region (Finger Lakes) that works with these people.


There are illegals, too. What's interesting is that the undersheriff in this
interview doesn't see illegals as the monsters we hear about from the news
sources aimed at droolers.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=16981143

Who is calling them monsters? The bigger picture is that H-2B makes
them
unnecessary. Making their employment opportunties illegal will make
their
deportation a moot issue. They go back home when the jobs dry up, and
taxpaying working class Americans get a raise.

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"KLS" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 9 Dec 2007 14:52:29 -0800, "Dave Bugg"
wrote:

And this has to do with what I wrote.... how? The point is, that
agriculture
has the ability to use the H-2B program to bring in as many temporary
migrant workers as they need during pruning, harvest, packing, etc. There
is
no need for illegals to be working in agriculture.

Dave is right, and the New York agriculture industry relies heavily on
these H-2B program workers. We even have a health clinic in our
region (Finger Lakes) that works with these people.


There are illegals, too. What's interesting is that the undersheriff in this
interview doesn't see illegals as the monsters we hear about from the news
sources aimed at droolers.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=16981143

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

In some places, the poll is a pretty good indicator of the lack of a
labor pool available to farmers.

What poll? You still persist with the notion that the labor pool is about
kids when that is not the primary workforce.

Where I live, we're 10-30 minutes
from lots of farmland. Kids drive that far to work at malls, golf
courses & restaurants, so distance isn't an issue. They just see farm
work as alien to them.

Not in our area. But, once again, this has nothing to do with kids. They do
not provide the primary pool of agricultural laborer.

Small apple orchards here tend to use local
help, but the biggest ones still use imported labor, some of it
illegal.

Central Washington is the largest apple producer in America. The orchards
are not small, even the 'mom and pop' operations are large. As I stated
before, farmers have the ability to pull in all the legal temporary migrant
labor they need -- which is the issue. Those who choose to hire illegals are
doing so for a cheap labor pool and to evade accountability. I hope to god
that farmers who break the law are busted big time.

--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"KLS" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 9 Dec 2007 14:52:29 -0800, "Dave Bugg"
wrote:

And this has to do with what I wrote.... how? The point is, that
agriculture
has the ability to use the H-2B program to bring in as many
temporary migrant workers as they need during pruning, harvest,
packing, etc. There is
no need for illegals to be working in agriculture.

Dave is right, and the New York agriculture industry relies heavily
on these H-2B program workers. We even have a health clinic in our
region (Finger Lakes) that works with these people.


There are illegals, too. What's interesting is that the undersheriff
in this interview doesn't see illegals as the monsters we hear about
from the news sources aimed at droolers.

Why are you diverting from the issue? The point is, ag businesses do not
need to hire illegals. Whether anyone sees them as monsters is beside the
point.
--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

"Dave Bugg" wrote in message
...
JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"KLS" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 9 Dec 2007 14:52:29 -0800, "Dave Bugg"
wrote:

And this has to do with what I wrote.... how? The point is, that
agriculture
has the ability to use the H-2B program to bring in as many
temporary migrant workers as they need during pruning, harvest,
packing, etc. There is
no need for illegals to be working in agriculture.

Dave is right, and the New York agriculture industry relies heavily
on these H-2B program workers. We even have a health clinic in our
region (Finger Lakes) that works with these people.


There are illegals, too. What's interesting is that the undersheriff
in this interview doesn't see illegals as the monsters we hear about
from the news sources aimed at droolers.

Why are you diverting from the issue? The point is, ag businesses do not
need to hire illegals. Whether anyone sees them as monsters is beside the
point.
--
Dave
www.davebbq.com


By monsters, I was referring to the endless stream of cross-posted crap in
many newsgroups, describing (in all-inclusive terms) the crimes committed by
illegals. Do some of them commit crimes? Of course. All of them? No.

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"Dave Bugg" wrote in message
...
JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"KLS" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 9 Dec 2007 14:52:29 -0800, "Dave Bugg"
wrote:

And this has to do with what I wrote.... how? The point is, that
agriculture
has the ability to use the H-2B program to bring in as many
temporary migrant workers as they need during pruning, harvest,
packing, etc. There is
no need for illegals to be working in agriculture.

Dave is right, and the New York agriculture industry relies heavily
on these H-2B program workers. We even have a health clinic in our
region (Finger Lakes) that works with these people.


There are illegals, too. What's interesting is that the undersheriff
in this interview doesn't see illegals as the monsters we hear about
from the news sources aimed at droolers.

Why are you diverting from the issue? The point is, ag businesses do
not need to hire illegals. Whether anyone sees them as monsters is
beside the point.
--
Dave
www.davebbq.com


By monsters, I was referring to the endless stream of cross-posted
crap in many newsgroups, describing (in all-inclusive terms) the
crimes committed by illegals. Do some of them commit crimes? Of
course. All of them? No.

I see.

--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

In article ,
Dan S. wrote:

shiite explained on 12/9/2007 :
Dear Captain Billy Non Sequitor,
1. Your assumptions about my attitude toward illegals, Mexican or
otherwise, are dead wrong. I have compassion for anyone from anywhere
doing what he can to survive.
My contempt is reserved for the politicians and employers who enable.

Not to dumb down the argument too much, but aren't employers doing what
they can to survive and don't you believe a number of them would fold
without their immigrant help? Why don't they deserve compassion rather
than contempt?


2. Your assumptions about my attitude toward illegal-labor-subsidized
produce is also dead wrong. I will GLADLY pay more for produce in
order to return jobs to Americans.

Top Raman is not produce. That, and what will be the effects on the
economy? When we pay more for produce, Starbucks everywhere will close
and those lucrative jobs are then lost, causing irreprable harm to
Strip Malls everywhere.


3. That I worry about smart Mexicans is (guess what?) dead wrong.
Three dead-wrong assumptions out of three. I hope that your wish for
smart Mexican neighbors comes true. They'll have a stupid neighbor to
contend with.

Billy wrote:
In article VpE6j.5689$jq2.5092@pd7urf1no,
"Noozer" wrote:

"shiite" wrote in message
...
The "we need the illegals to do jobs Americans won't do " is a myth.
Instead, they drive down wages, making many jobs unattractive to
Americans. Employers who hire them should be given the means to
identify illegals, then prosecuted, fined, and ultimately jailed and
shut down. Spineless politicians and unprincipled employers are the
culprits.

Correct.

If illegal workers werent so eager to do the crap jobs for almost no pay,
REAL workers might actually get a fair wage for these jobs.

God, you are stupid. If AMERICAN "subsidized" corn wasn't flooding
Mexico, more of these immigrants would have jobs in their own country.
Feel free to criticize those who subsidize the low cost of produce in
your markets. You, no doubt, worry about the smart Mexicans who can do
more than manual labor. They know modern measurements, the metric
system, grams, meters, liters. Personally, I like the Mexicans that I
have met and would like them for neighbors.

Your bitch isn't with those who do what they have to do to support their
families, it is with those who won't pay a decent living wage to REAL
workers, what ever that is supposed to mean. Mexicans, like the rest of
us, take what they can get.

God, you're stupid.
--

Billy

Bush & Cheney, Behind Bars


Yours,
Dan S.

Campaigning for Google rating stars, one smackdown at a time ... er,
uh, friendly encounter, rather.

Dan, you da man. You're certainly up to WWF quality. I mean that
sincerely.
--

Billy

Bush & Cheney, Behind Bars

In article ,
"Dave Bugg" wrote:

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
"KLS" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 9 Dec 2007 14:52:29 -0800, "Dave Bugg"
wrote:

And this has to do with what I wrote.... how? The point is, that
agriculture
has the ability to use the H-2B program to bring in as many
temporary migrant workers as they need during pruning, harvest,
packing, etc. There is
no need for illegals to be working in agriculture.

Dave is right, and the New York agriculture industry relies heavily
on these H-2B program workers. We even have a health clinic in our
region (Finger Lakes) that works with these people.


There are illegals, too. What's interesting is that the undersheriff
in this interview doesn't see illegals as the monsters we hear about
from the news sources aimed at droolers.

Why are you diverting from the issue? The point is, ag businesses do not
need to hire illegals. Whether anyone sees them as monsters is beside the
point.

Ag businesses are monsters at times, like when they call INS at the end
of harvest, just before they have to pay their illegals.
--

Billy

Bush & Cheney, Behind Bars

"Jim Weeks" wrote in message
...

wrote in message news:O7C6j.240152$Fc.7261@attbi_s21...
Jim Weeks wrote:
"Greg Goss" wrote in message
...
Ted wrote:


Let us get back to basics with this premise: "A good illegal alien is
a dead illegal alien."

NOOOO!!!! then I'd have to start cuttin' my own grass again..


jpw
I have a lawn company. I'll cut your grass. Oh wait a minute. You are a
racist and don't want Americans on your property.

not so.. you can clean the pool.. dang mexicans just keep swimming across
it.

jpw


illegal are stealing jobs from Legal immigrants who also have a language
barrier and will do any job. besides it is not that difficult to become a
legal immigrant. just fill out a form and wait. You know what the problem
is. America evaluates what job market has shortage and then they accept only
people who have the needed skills so many who apply for visa have no skills
at all or skills that aren't in high demand, therefore they choose to come
to USA illegally. There are many legal immigrants who will gladly work on
the farm or in construction.

wrote in
:

On Sat, 8 Dec 2007 16:36:13 -0700, "SteveB"
wrote:

Can we compromise then? And just deport the criminal half? There are
a lot of good illegals here, albeit they are here illegally. A lot
would rather go hungry than steal.

Now there is a sane answer. Why not let the IRS handle immigration?
They have the means to find people making money illegally and using
phony SS cards. Let them sign up the folks who are wiiling to pay
taxes and work for a living and deport the slackers, gangsters and
thieves.


right now,Social Security Admin finds when a SSN is bogus,and notifies the
employer,who is supposed to correct the problem.The problem is,the
employers don't care(no penalties),and keep on employing the illegal.

Instead,they should call ICE and have them pick up the illegal.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Greg Goss wrote:
Ted wrote:



Let us get back to basics with this premise: "A good illegal alien is
a dead illegal alien."


A reminder to anyone planning to reply to this thread: It is cross
posted to five newsgroups, and is only on-topic in, perhaps, one of
them. And since the message it's a reply to wasn't even in that one,
then it's a troll set up purely to get people angry, rather than to
explore the issues.

In my home newsgroup, this story may raise issues worth discussing.
But not in this tone. And definitely not in Nascar or College
Football. I apologize to those other newsgroups for stomping through
their rec.garden, but this reminder of trollness is sometimes
appropriate.