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#1
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How to compare electric vs natural gas heating costs
Recently bought a house in the Seattle area, built about 1980. At the time
the house was built, there was no gas in the area. The house has a heat pump, which is nearing the end of its life. Natural gas is now available in the area. I'm wondering if I should go with another heat pump, or natural gas. Since about 80% of the electricity here is hydro, it's relatively cheap, about $.08/KWH. I don't know what the price of the gas is per cu', but I could find out. Is there a way I could get a rough estimate of how much natural gas I would consume to heat the house, based on the electricity used for this purpose? There are a lot of confounding factors, the relative efficiency of the 2 units (old heat pump vs new nat'l gas furnace), the fact that I also use electric to heat water, etc. (can probably find some rough figure for factoring this out) the relative costs of each type of replacement (I would add AC to the gas furnace, so I'm guessing the gas/AC unit would cost more to buy initially than the heat pump, especially if I have to shell out for the gas line to be run). Coming from the midwest, electric heat was always seen as significatly more costly than natural gas, but I don't know if this is still the case just in general, and particularly if it would be true given this region's relatively low electric rates. Any helpful comments appreciated. TIA, Dan |
#2
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How to compare electric vs natural gas heating costs
"Bubba" wrote in message
... Here. Lets confuse you just a bit more. Whats wrong with a 95% gas furnace with a heat pump instead of the usual straight cooling only? Ive got it and love it. Gives you a bit more ability to play with the fuel prices. Takes only a Honeywell Vision Pro stat (and outddor temp sensor) to control it all. Bubba Sounds interesting, I'll check it out. Thanks Dan |
#3
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How to compare electric vs natural gas heating costs
"Dan" wrote in message . .. Recently bought a house in the Seattle area, built about 1980. At the time the house was built, there was no gas in the area. The house has a heat pump, which is nearing the end of its life. Natural gas is now available in the area. I'm wondering if I should go with another heat pump, or natural gas. Since about 80% of the electricity here is hydro, it's relatively cheap, about $.08/KWH. I don't know what the price of the gas is per cu', but I could find out. Is there a way I could get a rough estimate of how much natural gas I would consume to heat the house, based on the electricity used for this purpose? Your electric is about half what I pay. You can plug in numbers here to get a pretty good comparison based on using the same Btu for your house. You need to know the cost of gas, of course. http://hearth.com/econtent/index.php...on_calculator/ |
#4
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How to compare electric vs natural gas heating costs
"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
t... Your electric is about half what I pay. You can plug in numbers here to get a pretty good comparison based on using the same Btu for your house. You need to know the cost of gas, of course. http://hearth.com/econtent/index.php...on_calculator/ Thanks Ed, that looks ideal! Dan |
#5
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How to compare electric vs natural gas heating costs
On Fri, 7 Dec 2007 17:53:55 -0800, "Dan" wrote:
Recently bought a house in the Seattle area, built about 1980. At the time the house was built, there was no gas in the area. The house has a heat pump, which is nearing the end of its life. Natural gas is now available in the area. I'm wondering if I should go with another heat pump, or natural gas. Since about 80% of the electricity here is hydro, it's relatively cheap, about $.08/KWH. I don't know what the price of the gas is per cu', but I could find out. Is there a way I could get a rough estimate of how much natural gas I would consume to heat the house, based on the electricity used for this purpose? There are a lot of confounding factors, the relative efficiency of the 2 units (old heat pump vs new nat'l gas furnace), the fact that I also use electric to heat water, etc. (can probably find some rough figure for factoring this out) the relative costs of each type of replacement (I would add AC to the gas furnace, so I'm guessing the gas/AC unit would cost more to buy initially than the heat pump, especially if I have to shell out for the gas line to be run). Coming from the midwest, electric heat was always seen as significatly more costly than natural gas, but I don't know if this is still the case just in general, and particularly if it would be true given this region's relatively low electric rates. Any helpful comments appreciated. TIA, Dan Dan, I live in "The Energy City" where they have cheap hydro-power and a nearby nuclear power plant. We can generate more electricity to supply all of New York City in one of out buildings, yet heating the house with natural gas is less expensive than electrically heated. I have all gas appliances, except for A/C. You might get a better clue by talking with your neighbors. |
#6
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How to compare electric vs natural gas heating costs
Phisherman wrote:
On Fri, 7 Dec 2007 17:53:55 -0800, "Dan" wrote: Recently bought a house in the Seattle area, built about 1980. At the time the house was built, there was no gas in the area. The house has a heat pump, which is nearing the end of its life. Natural gas is now available in the area. I'm wondering if I should go with another heat pump, or natural gas. Since about 80% of the electricity here is hydro, it's relatively cheap, about $.08/KWH. I don't know what the price of the gas is per cu', but I could find out. Is there a way I could get a rough estimate of how much natural gas I would consume to heat the house, based on the electricity used for this purpose? There are a lot of confounding factors, the relative efficiency of the 2 units (old heat pump vs new nat'l gas furnace), the fact that I also use electric to heat water, etc. (can probably find some rough figure for factoring this out) the relative costs of each type of replacement (I would add AC to the gas furnace, so I'm guessing the gas/AC unit would cost more to buy initially than the heat pump, especially if I have to shell out for the gas line to be run). Coming from the midwest, electric heat was always seen as significatly more costly than natural gas, but I don't know if this is still the case just in general, and particularly if it would be true given this region's relatively low electric rates. Any helpful comments appreciated. TIA, Dan Dan, I live in "The Energy City" where they have cheap hydro-power and a nearby nuclear power plant. We can generate more electricity to supply all of New York City in one of out buildings, yet heating the house with natural gas is less expensive than electrically heated. I have all gas appliances, except for A/C. You might get a better clue by talking with your neighbors. Are you comparing electric-resistive heating, or the current generation of electric powered ground source (geothermal) heat pumps? There is a very large efficiency difference between them. |
#7
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How to compare electric vs natural gas heating costs
On Dec 8, 9:22 am, "Pete C." wrote:
Phisherman wrote: On Fri, 7 Dec 2007 17:53:55 -0800, "Dan" wrote: Recently bought a house in the Seattle area, built about 1980. At the time the house was built, there was no gas in the area. The house has a heat pump, which is nearing the end of its life. Natural gas is now available in the area. I'm wondering if I should go with another heat pump, or natural gas. Since about 80% of the electricity here is hydro, it's relatively cheap, about $.08/KWH. I don't know what the price of the gas is per cu', but I could find out. Is there a way I could get a rough estimate of how much natural gas I would consume to heat the house, based on the electricity used for this purpose? There are a lot of confounding factors, the relative efficiency of the 2 units (old heat pump vs new nat'l gas furnace), the fact that I also use electric to heat water, etc. (can probably find some rough figure for factoring this out) the relative costs of each type of replacement (I would add AC to the gas furnace, so I'm guessing the gas/AC unit would cost more to buy initially than the heat pump, especially if I have to shell out for the gas line to be run). Coming from the midwest, electric heat was always seen as significatly more costly than natural gas, but I don't know if this is still the case just in general, and particularly if it would be true given this region's relatively low electric rates. Any helpful comments appreciated. TIA, Dan Dan, I live in "The Energy City" where they have cheap hydro-power and a nearby nuclear power plant. We can generate more electricity to supply all of New York City in one of out buildings, yet heating the house with natural gas is less expensive than electrically heated. I have all gas appliances, except for A/C. You might get a better clue by talking with your neighbors. Are you comparing electric-resistive heating, or the current generation of electric powered ground source (geothermal) heat pumps? There is a very large efficiency difference between them.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Agree. There is confusion of terms from the beginning of this thread. The term "electric heat" is usually used to refer to systems using resistance heating elements. Heat pump is a system that uses a compressor powered by electricity. And another factor is heat pumps can then use either air or geothermal to exchange the heat. Heat pumps systems usually have a backup heat source, usually electric to be used at lower temps. There is a world of difference in terms of operating costs between resistance heat and a heat pump. Just about everywhere, nat gas is going to be cheaper than electric resistance heating to operate. But a heat pump system could be a good alternative, depending on the climate and fuel costs. |
#8
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How to compare electric vs natural gas heating costs
wrote in message
... Agree. There is confusion of terms from the beginning of this thread. The term "electric heat" is usually used to refer to systems using resistance heating elements. Heat pump is a system that uses a compressor powered by electricity. And another factor is heat pumps can then use either air or geothermal to exchange the heat. Heat pumps systems usually have a backup heat source, usually electric to be used at lower temps. There is a world of difference in terms of operating costs between resistance heat and a heat pump. Just about everywhere, nat gas is going to be cheaper than electric resistance heating to operate. But a heat pump system could be a good alternative, depending on the climate and fuel costs. I don't know what confusion you're referring to, when I started this thread I clearly stated I now have & am considering a heat pump for replacement. Like most heat pumps, my current system has resistive backup heat for when it's really cold, but such low temps are pretty rare around here. I'm aware of geothermal heat pumps, though I have not researched them in depth. Our lot is a little over 1 acre, but about 80% of that is heavily forested and on fairly rough terrain. Obviously, the installation costs of such a system, whether the horizontal or vertical variety, would be significantly higher than simply plopping another box on the ground. Either way, I may not be living here more than about 5 years, so recouping higher installation costs over time, even for just a top of the line "high efficiency" gas or air-source heat pump, let alone a geo, is probably not going to happen. Another factor is the potential price stability of the 2 energy sources. No one has a crystal ball, but it seems logical to expect the price of hydro-sourced electricity to be more stable over time than natural gas. Thanks all for the replies. Dan |
#9
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How to compare electric vs natural gas heating costs
"Joseph Meehan" wrote in message
... I would suggest checking with a well recommended HVAC contractor in your area. I say this because your area is different than most of the US and Canada. The choice of equipment should be one made with a good professional knowledgeable of local conditions, construction and cost. Thanks Joe, I agree a "good knowledgeable professional" is key. Unfortunately, finding one, even with recommendations (I have a couple though I haven't contacted anyone yet), can be a very dicey proposition. Dan |
#10
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How to compare electric vs natural gas heating costs
On Dec 8, 2:15 pm, "Dan" wrote:
wrote in message ... Agree. There is confusion of terms from the beginning of this thread. The term "electric heat" is usually used to refer to systems using resistance heating elements. Heat pump is a system that uses a compressor powered by electricity. And another factor is heat pumps can then use either air or geothermal to exchange the heat. Heat pumps systems usually have a backup heat source, usually electric to be used at lower temps. There is a world of difference in terms of operating costs between resistance heat and a heat pump. Just about everywhere, nat gas is going to be cheaper than electric resistance heating to operate. But a heat pump system could be a good alternative, depending on the climate and fuel costs. I don't know what confusion you're referring to, when I started this thread I clearly stated I now have & am considering a heat pump for replacement. The title of you post was "How to compare electric heat vs natural gas heat". That's confusing, because what you're talking about is a heat pump, not resistance electric heat. Phisherman responded with a post saying where he lives, even with low electricity costs, electric heat is more expensive. I think what he means is electric resistance heat, not an electrically drive heap pump, is more expensive. But there is no way of knowing when you misuse the commonly acceptedus terms. Like most heat pumps, my current system has resistive backup heat for when it's really cold, but such low temps are pretty rare around here. I'm aware of geothermal heat pumps, though I have not researched them in depth. Our lot is a little over 1 acre, but about 80% of that is heavily forested and on fairly rough terrain. Obviously, the installation costs of such a system, whether the horizontal or vertical variety, would be significantly higher than simply plopping another box on the ground. Either way, I may not be living here more than about 5 years, so recouping higher installation costs over time, even for just a top of the line "high efficiency" gas or air-source heat pump, let alone a geo, is probably not going to happen. Another factor is the potential price stability of the 2 energy sources. No one has a crystal ball, but it seems logical to expect the price of hydro-sourced electricity to be more stable over time than natural gas. Thanks all for the replies. Dan |
#11
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How to compare electric vs natural gas heating costs
wrote in message
... On Dec 8, 2:15 pm, "Dan" wrote: wrote in message ... The title of you post was "How to compare electric heat vs natural gas heat". That's confusing, because what you're talking about is a heat pump, not resistance electric heat... You've got to be kidding me... |
#12
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How to compare electric vs natural gas heating costs
"Bubba" wrote in message
... Dan, Nope! He aint kiddin. Trader4 is an EE. That classifies him as a grade A #1 pencil pushing geek pain in the ass. Self proclaimed know-it-all on everything. In reality, he's pretty clueless about most everything. Just let him live in his "own little world", ignore him and everything will be all right. :-) Bubba Thanks Bubba, I'll keep that in mind ;-) Dan |
#13
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How to compare electric vs natural gas heating costs
On Dec 8, 3:35 pm, "Dan" wrote:
wrote in message ... On Dec 8, 2:15 pm, "Dan" wrote: wrote in message ... The title of you post was "How to compare electric heat vs natural gas heat". That's confusing, because what you're talking about is a heat pump, not resistance electric heat... You've got to be kidding me... No, I'm not kidding you, only trying to point out that the answers you're getting may in some cases be wrong because people may have been mislead by the title of your post. If you want to get responses that are answering a question that was different than what you intended, that's up to you. For example, are you sure Phisherman understood you meant a heat pump when you titled your post "How to compare electric heat vs nautral gas heat?" I'd put odds on that he was thinking electric resistance heating because that's what the term "electric heat" usually means and I think that's what his answer was based on. Pete C picked up on that too, when he questioned whether Phisherman really meant electric resistance heat or a heat pump system. I was only trying to point out that the thread may have gone a bit astray because of confusion and that maybe his response was not what he really meant. Here for reference is the definition of an electric heater: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_heater An electric heater is an electrical appliance that converts electrical energy into heat. The heating element inside every electric heater is simply an electrical resistor, and works on the principle of Joule heating: an electric current flowing through a resistor converts electrical energy into heat energy. Sorry that my attempt to straighten out some possible confusion, which is pretty much what Pete C did too, got you so bothered that you've followed Bubba, the village idiot, and turned it into a personal attack. |
#14
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How to compare electric vs natural gas heating costs
wrote in message
... No, I'm not kidding you, only trying to point out that the answers you're getting may in some cases be wrong because people may have been mislead by the title of your post. That I was referring to an existing and possible replacement HEAT PUMP was made abundantly clear in the beginning of the post. I'm afraid your exacting editorial standards exceed the rigors of the medium. It's a newsgroup, not a journal article. Lighten up, you'll live longer. In any case, I'm not going to go back and forth about this all weekend, so go ahead and have the last word. Dan |
#15
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How to compare electric vs natural gas heating costs
Dan wrote:
wrote in message ... Agree. There is confusion of terms from the beginning of this thread. The term "electric heat" is usually used to refer to systems using resistance heating elements. Heat pump is a system that uses a compressor powered by electricity. And another factor is heat pumps can then use either air or geothermal to exchange the heat. Heat pumps systems usually have a backup heat source, usually electric to be used at lower temps. There is a world of difference in terms of operating costs between resistance heat and a heat pump. Just about everywhere, nat gas is going to be cheaper than electric resistance heating to operate. But a heat pump system could be a good alternative, depending on the climate and fuel costs. I don't know what confusion you're referring to, when I started this thread I clearly stated I now have & am considering a heat pump for replacement. Like most heat pumps, my current system has resistive backup heat for when it's really cold, but such low temps are pretty rare around here. I'm aware of geothermal heat pumps, though I have not researched them in depth. Our lot is a little over 1 acre, but about 80% of that is heavily forested and on fairly rough terrain. Obviously, the installation costs of such a system, whether the horizontal or vertical variety, would be significantly higher than simply plopping another box on the ground. Either way, I may not be living here more than about 5 years, so recouping higher installation costs over time, even for just a top of the line "high efficiency" gas or air-source heat pump, let alone a geo, is probably not going to happen. Another factor is the potential price stability of the 2 energy sources. No one has a crystal ball, but it seems logical to expect the price of hydro-sourced electricity to be more stable over time than natural gas. Thanks all for the replies. Dan For a geothermal heat pump, trenched vertical coil installation is the easiest and cheapest and is as efficient as other installation types in most situations. Basically you cut a trench with a big ditch witch and then stretch a coil of tubing like a flattened slinky, put it in the trench and back fill with some suitable material. Fast and easy and minimal impact to the area. |
#16
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How to compare electric vs natural gas heating costs
On Dec 8, 11:36 pm, "Dan" wrote:
wrote in message ... No, I'm not kidding you, only trying to point out that the answers you're getting may in some cases be wrong because people may have been mislead by the title of your post. That I was referring to an existing and possible replacement HEAT PUMP was made abundantly clear in the beginning of the post. I'm afraid your exacting editorial standards exceed the rigors of the medium. It's a newsgroup, not a journal article. It's not a case of exacting editorial standards. You apparently think everyone replying to some part of this thread, must have entered the thread at the very beginning and read your entire post. It's very possible they saw the title "How to compare electric vs natural gas heating costs and only read some of the later posts from people trying to reply with advice, where I think it became unclear if the discussion was now about heat pumps, as you intended, or if some replies were about electric resistance heating. Again, I refer you back to the point where there was a response that looked like they may have been talking about resistance heating, not heat pumps. Pete C pointed this response out too. All I did is point out how people might have gone astray because of the wording of the title. But apparently you're so sensitive you'd rather have incorrect answers from a thread going astray rather than have someone point out the possible reason for the confusion and get the thread back on track so you can get valid answers. If you want more answers regarding heat pumps vs natural gas, try googling for it in this newsgroup. There have been many discussion threads which you will find. Lighten up, you'll live longer. In any case, I'm not going to go back and forth about this all weekend, so go ahead and have the last word. .. Dan |
#17
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How to compare electric vs natural gas heating costs
"Pete C." wrote in message
... For a geothermal heat pump, trenched vertical coil installation is the easiest and cheapest and is as efficient as other installation types in most situations. Basically you cut a trench with a big ditch witch and then stretch a coil of tubing like a flattened slinky, put it in the trench and back fill with some suitable material. Fast and easy and minimal impact to the area. I'll definately look into the geo when I get estimates. Since our plan is to live here about 5 years or so, upfront costs are an issue, but it's certainly worth a look. Thanks for the reply. Dan |
#18
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How to compare electric vs natural gas heating costs
"Bubba" wrote in message
... I told you Dan, the guy (trader4.....) is a freaking idiot. Make sure you dot your I's and puncuate correctly. Otherwise he will find something else to nitpick. An EE with an adgenda. What a miserable life he must lead. Bubba I didn't read his last post. Why bother. Been doing NG's a long time. You can always tell the ones who'd rather argue than discuss, and who live for the "last word". Sad, really. Dan |
#19
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How to compare electric vs natural gas heating costs
On Dec 9, 3:25 pm, "Dan" wrote:
"Bubba" wrote in message ... I told you Dan, the guy (trader4.....) is a freaking idiot. Make sure you dot your I's and puncuate correctly. Otherwise he will find something else to nitpick. An EE with an adgenda. What a miserable life he must lead. Bubba I didn't read his last post. Why bother. Been doing NG's a long time. You can always tell the ones who'd rather argue than discuss, and who live for the "last word". Sad, really. Dan I noticed you yourself still feel compelled to have the last word though. And that's after saying you were done with this a couple posts ago. As for arguing vs discussing, again, all I did was point out that some of the responses may be from folks who were confused by your choice of terminology in the post title. It seems Pete C also thought Phisherman may have been talking about resistance electric heat when he gave his reply Hmmm, could it be because he came in on the middle of the thread, saw your post titled "How to compare electric vs natural gas heating cost" read some replies and perhaps never read the body of your post? I was polite and only tried to maybe get the track back on thread. You, in turn attacked me, personally. So, here's a thought. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the advantages of a heat pump vs natural gas. You could just search this group. It's been asked, discussed and answered dozens of time. A simple google search will also uncover plenty of websites where it's discussed. And while you're there, sensitive genius that you are, maybe you'll learn that people don't refer to heat pumps as electric heating. |
#20
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How to compare electric vs natural gas heating costs
Hi Dan,
A standard billing measure for natural gas sold in the U.S. is a "therm". One therm contains 100,000 BTUs. Alternatively, it is sometimes sold in 100 cubic foot increments (CCF). Assuming a gas furnace with an AFUE rating of 92 per cent, your net heat gain in either case is about 27 kWh. Natural gas prices can fluctuate widely from one year to the next, but according the DOE, the average retail price for natural gas sold in Washington state in 2006 was $1.34 per CCF. Again, assuming an AFUE of 92 per cent, that puts the equivalent cost per kWh in the range of $0.05. As of September 2007 (the latest month for which data is available), it is $1.63 per CCF or $0.06 per kWh(e). The current minimum HSPF or "heating season performance factor" for air-source heat pumps is 7.7; like AFUE ratings, higher numbers are better. A good quality heat pump with a HSPF of 8.5 will provide, on average, 2.5 kWh of heat for every kWh of electricity consumed. If you currently pay $0.08 per kWh, your effective cost per kWh of heat falls closer to $0.03. On that basis, the operating costs of a high efficiency natural gas furnace are 1.5 to 2.0 times higher than that of our reference heat pump. If my memory is correct, domestic natural gas production peaked in 1973 and the U.S. has been relying on natural gas imports from Canada and Mexico to make up for the slack (and to a growing extent, LNG imports from overseas). Canada's natural gas production has also peaked and so I expect natural gas prices to trend upward going forward (a succession of relatively mild winters and the loss of major industrial consumers has helped to temporarily dampened prices, but this won't last forever). Over the long haul, a heat pump would likely outperform natural gas by a wide margin. Hope this information is helpful. Cheers, Paul "Dan" wrote in message ... Recently bought a house in the Seattle area, built about 1980. At the time the house was built, there was no gas in the area. The house has a heat pump, which is nearing the end of its life. Natural gas is now available in the area. I'm wondering if I should go with another heat pump, or natural gas. Since about 80% of the electricity here is hydro, it's relatively cheap, about $.08/KWH. I don't know what the price of the gas is per cu', but I could find out. Is there a way I could get a rough estimate of how much natural gas I would consume to heat the house, based on the electricity used for this purpose? There are a lot of confounding factors, the relative efficiency of the 2 units (old heat pump vs new nat'l gas furnace), the fact that I also use electric to heat water, etc. (can probably find some rough figure for factoring this out) the relative costs of each type of replacement (I would add AC to the gas furnace, so I'm guessing the gas/AC unit would cost more to buy initially than the heat pump, especially if I have to shell out for the gas line to be run). Coming from the midwest, electric heat was always seen as significatly more costly than natural gas, but I don't know if this is still the case just in general, and particularly if it would be true given this region's relatively low electric rates. Any helpful comments appreciated. TIA, Dan |
#21
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How to compare electric vs natural gas heating costs
Hi Dan,
A short addendum. To provide you with a better sense of the long term trend for natural gas prices, the following table shows the average retail cost per CCF in Washington state: 1997 - $0.564 1998 - $0.584 1999 - $0.588 2000 - $0.716 2001 - $0.979 2002 - $0.933 2003 - $0.843 2004 - $0.991 2005 - $ 1.180 2006 - $1.336 Source: http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/ng/hist/n3010wa3A.htm N..B.: The source table shows the cost per 1,000 cubic feet, but I've adjusted this to CCF, which is more appropriate for retail consumers. From this, we see that the cost of natural gas heat is 2.4 times higher than ten years ago. Interesting to note that in 1996, the average retail cost of electricity in your state was $0.0503 per kWh and as of 2006, it had increased to $0.0614 -- a 22 per cent increase over an eleven year span (i.e., an increase that falls below the rate of inflation). Cheers, Paul On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 10:29:27 -0400, Paul M. Eldridge wrote: Hi Dan, A standard billing measure for natural gas sold in the U.S. is a "therm". One therm contains 100,000 BTUs. Alternatively, it is sometimes sold in 100 cubic foot increments (CCF). Assuming a gas furnace with an AFUE rating of 92 per cent, your net heat gain in either case is about 27 kWh. Natural gas prices can fluctuate widely from one year to the next, but according the DOE, the average retail price for natural gas sold in Washington state in 2006 was $1.34 per CCF. Again, assuming an AFUE of 92 per cent, that puts the equivalent cost per kWh in the range of $0.05. As of September 2007 (the latest month for which data is available), it is $1.63 per CCF or $0.06 per kWh(e). The current minimum HSPF or "heating season performance factor" for air-source heat pumps is 7.7; like AFUE ratings, higher numbers are better. A good quality heat pump with a HSPF of 8.5 will provide, on average, 2.5 kWh of heat for every kWh of electricity consumed. If you currently pay $0.08 per kWh, your effective cost per kWh of heat falls closer to $0.03. On that basis, the operating costs of a high efficiency natural gas furnace are 1.5 to 2.0 times higher than that of our reference heat pump. If my memory is correct, domestic natural gas production peaked in 1973 and the U.S. has been relying on natural gas imports from Canada and Mexico to make up for the slack (and to a growing extent, LNG imports from overseas). Canada's natural gas production has also peaked and so I expect natural gas prices to trend upward going forward (a succession of relatively mild winters and the loss of major industrial consumers has helped to temporarily dampened prices, but this won't last forever). Over the long haul, a heat pump would likely outperform natural gas by a wide margin. Hope this information is helpful. Cheers, Paul |
#22
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How to compare electric vs natural gas heating costs
On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 10:29:27 -0400, Paul M. Eldridge
wrote: Hi Dan, A standard billing measure for natural gas sold in the U.S. is a "therm". One therm contains 100,000 BTUs. Alternatively, it is sometimes sold in 100 cubic foot increments (CCF). Assuming a gas furnace with an AFUE rating of 92 per cent, your net heat gain in either case is about 27 kWh. Natural gas prices can fluctuate widely from one year to the next, but according the DOE, the average retail price for natural gas sold in Washington state in 2006 was $1.34 per CCF. Again, assuming an AFUE of 92 per cent, that puts the equivalent cost per kWh in the range of $0.05. As of September 2007 (the latest month for which data is available), it is $1.63 per CCF or $0.06 per kWh(e). The current minimum HSPF or "heating season performance factor" for air-source heat pumps is 7.7; like AFUE ratings, higher numbers are better. A good quality heat pump with a HSPF of 8.5 will provide, on average, 2.5 kWh of heat for every kWh of electricity consumed. If you currently pay $0.08 per kWh, your effective cost per kWh of heat falls closer to $0.03. On that basis, the operating costs of a high efficiency natural gas furnace are 1.5 to 2.0 times higher than that of our reference heat pump. If my memory is correct, domestic natural gas production peaked in 1973 and the U.S. has been relying on natural gas imports from Canada and Mexico to make up for the slack (and to a growing extent, LNG imports from overseas). Canada's natural gas production has also peaked and so I expect natural gas prices to trend upward going forward (a succession of relatively mild winters and the loss of major industrial consumers has helped to temporarily dampened prices, but this won't last forever). Over the long haul, a heat pump would likely outperform natural gas by a wide margin. Hope this information is helpful. Cheers, Paul In the past, a heat pump was not viable for regions with severe winters such as New England. Has this changed? In what temperature range will heat pumps perform adequately? I'm looking for alternatives myself. Thanks... ---- Posted via Pronews.com - Premium Corporate Usenet News Provider ---- http://www.pronews.com offers corporate packages that have access to 100,000+ newsgroups |
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How to compare electric vs natural gas heating costs
As you might guess, heat pumps won't perform nearly as well in New
England as they will in Washington state given the colder climate and significantly higher electricity costs. Boston's heating degree-days number 6,371 whereas Seattle clocks in at 4,624 (higher numbers = colder climate). In addition, NStar's residential customers pay $0.174 per kWh or about three times that of their Washington state counterparts. That said, heat pumps still could be a good choice for homeowners without access to natural gas. Heating oil is currently selling for about $3.20 a gallon. One gallon of heating oil provides 139,000 BTUs and assuming an AFUE of 82 per cent, you net about 33.4 kWhs of heat per gallon -- the cost per kWh, in this case, is about $0.096. At $0.174 per kWh, a heat pump with a HSPF of 8.5 is going to provide heat at a cost of just under $0.07 per kWh. That makes oil heat about one-third more expensive than our heat pump. Where natural gas is available and where air conditioning is also desired, I would be inclined to go with a duel fuel arrangement where both fuels can be utilized to maximum benefit. Cheers, Paul On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 13:19:44 -0500, lanman wrote: In the past, a heat pump was not viable for regions with severe winters such as New England. Has this changed? In what temperature range will heat pumps perform adequately? I'm looking for alternatives myself. Thanks... |
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How to compare electric vs natural gas heating costs
"Paul M. Eldridge" wrote in message
... Hi Dan, A standard billing measure for natural gas sold in the U.S. is a "therm"... Paul-Thank you so much for the very informative replies! Extremely helpful, and I appreciate the time they took to put together. Dan |
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How to compare electric vs natural gas heating costs
On Sat, 15 Dec 2007 01:40:57 -0800, "Dan" wrote:
Paul-Thank you so much for the very informative replies! Extremely helpful, and I appreciate the time they took to put together. Dan You're most welcome. For a personal perspective on this, I live in Halifax, Nova Scotia and my home is a forty year old, 2,500 sq. ft. Cape Cod; over the past five years of ownership, it has been extensively upgraded in terms of its thermal efficiency. My primary heating system is an oil-fired hot water boiler (Slant/Fin), mated with a Superstor Ultra indirect hot water tank and a Tekmar control system. In August 2005, as part of my efforts to minimize my fuel oil consumption, I installed a small, 14,000 BTU/hr ductless heat pump (7.2 HSPF). In the year prior to its installation, I used 1,973 litres of fuel oil (525 gallons) and, of this, I estimate 1,400 litres can be allocated to space heating purposes -- the balance for domestic hot water production. In the following year, my fuel oil use fell to 827 litres, which suggests my backup boiler demand is now in the order of 250 litres or 65 gallons/year. My total electrical consumption this past year, including heat pump, is 10,300 kWh. As I type this, the temperature here in Halifax is currently -16C (3F). Best regards, Paul |
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How to compare electric vs natural gas heating costs
On Dec 14 2007, 1:19 pm, lanman wrote:
On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 10:29:27 -0400, Paul M. Eldridge wrote: Hi Dan, A standard billing measure for natural gas sold in the U.S. is a "therm". One therm contains 100,000 BTUs. Alternatively, it is sometimes sold in 100 cubic foot increments (CCF). Assuming a gas furnace with an AFUE rating of 92 per cent, your net heat gain in either case is about 27 kWh. Natural gas prices can fluctuate widely from one year to the next, but according the DOE, the average retail price for natural gas sold in Washington state in 2006 was $1.34 per CCF. Again, assuming an AFUE of 92 per cent, that puts the equivalent cost per kWh in the range of $0.05. As of September 2007 (the latest month for which data is available), it is $1.63 per CCF or $0.06 per kWh(e). The current minimum HSPF or "heatingseason performance factor" for air-source heat pumps is 7.7; like AFUE ratings, higher numbers are better. A good quality heat pump with a HSPF of 8.5 will provide, on average, 2.5 kWh of heat for every kWh of electricity consumed. If you currently pay $0.08 per kWh, your effective cost per kWh of heat falls closer to $0.03. On that basis, the operating costs of a high efficiency natural gas furnace are 1.5 to 2.0 times higher than that of our reference heat pump. If my memory is correct, domestic natural gas production peaked in 1973 and the U.S. has been relying on natural gas imports from Canada and Mexico to make up for the slack (and to a growing extent, LNG imports from overseas). Canada's natural gas production has also peaked and so I expect natural gas prices to trend upward going forward (a succession of relatively mild winters and the loss of major industrial consumers has helped to temporarily dampened prices, but this won't last forever). Over the long haul, a heat pump would likely outperform natural gas by a wide margin. Hope this information is helpful. Cheers, Paul In the past, a heat pump was not viable for regions with severe winters such as New England. Has this changed? In what temperature range will heat pumps perform adequately? I'm looking for alternatives myself. Thanks... ---- Posted via Pronews.com - Premium Corporate Usenet News Provider ----http://www.pronews.comoffers corporate packages that have access to 100,000+ newsgroups Hallowell Heat Pump www.gotohallowell.com |
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How to compare electric vs natural gas heating costs
wrote in message ... On Dec 14 2007, 1:19 pm, lanman wrote: On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 10:29:27 -0400, Paul M. Eldridge wrote: Hi Dan, A standard billing measure for natural gas sold in the U.S. is a "therm". One therm contains 100,000 BTUs. Alternatively, it is sometimes sold in 100 cubic foot increments (CCF). Assuming a gas furnace with an AFUE rating of 92 per cent, your net heat gain in either case is about 27 kWh. Natural gas prices can fluctuate widely from one year to the next, but according the DOE, the average retail price for natural gas sold in Washington state in 2006 was $1.34 per CCF. Again, assuming an AFUE of 92 per cent, that puts the equivalent cost per kWh in the range of $0.05. As of September 2007 (the latest month for which data is available), it is $1.63 per CCF or $0.06 per kWh(e). The current minimum HSPF or "heatingseason performance factor" for air-source heat pumps is 7.7; like AFUE ratings, higher numbers are better. A good quality heat pump with a HSPF of 8.5 will provide, on average, 2.5 kWh of heat for every kWh of electricity consumed. If you currently pay $0.08 per kWh, your effective cost per kWh of heat falls closer to $0.03. On that basis, the operating costs of a high efficiency natural gas furnace are 1.5 to 2.0 times higher than that of our reference heat pump. If my memory is correct, domestic natural gas production peaked in 1973 and the U.S. has been relying on natural gas imports from Canada and Mexico to make up for the slack (and to a growing extent, LNG imports from overseas). Canada's natural gas production has also peaked and so I expect natural gas prices to trend upward going forward (a succession of relatively mild winters and the loss of major industrial consumers has helped to temporarily dampened prices, but this won't last forever). Over the long haul, a heat pump would likely outperform natural gas by a wide margin. Hope this information is helpful. Cheers, Paul In the past, a heat pump was not viable for regions with severe winters such as New England. Has this changed? In what temperature range will heat pumps perform adequately? I'm looking for alternatives myself. Thanks... ---- Posted via Pronews.com - Premium Corporate Usenet News Provider ----http://www.pronews.comoffers corporate packages that have access to 100,000+ newsgroups Hallowell Heat Pump www.gotohallowell.com The heat pump is important; but the real key to low-cost, efficient heat transfer in cold climates is the source of heat. Air is not a good heat source in cold climates; but the ground or water might be. Here in northern Ohio, we see more ground source (geothermal) heat pumps. What seems to have changed is how the heat transfer coils are installed in the ground. Instead of trenches, vertical shafts are drilled. These can go through rock layers and require less land area.. Sometimes water is used if the water table is high. Ground temperatues of 45-50F are the heat source during winter and the heat sink during hot weather. See: http://energymatch.com/features/arti...p?articleid=46 or http://www.gcbl.org/node/2233/398#comment-398 |
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How to compare electric vs natural gas heating costs
Dan wrote:
Recently bought a house in the Seattle area, built about 1980. At the time the house was built, there was no gas in the area. The house has a heat pump, which is nearing the end of its life. Natural gas is now available in the area. I'm wondering if I should go with another heat pump, or natural gas. Since about 80% of the electricity here is hydro, it's relatively cheap, about $.08/KWH. I don't know what the price of the gas is per cu', but I could find out. Is there a way I could get a rough estimate of how much natural gas I would consume to heat the house, based on the electricity used for this purpose? There are a lot of confounding factors, the relative efficiency of the 2 units (old heat pump vs new nat'l gas furnace), the fact that I also use electric to heat water, etc. (can probably find some rough figure for factoring this out) the relative costs of each type of replacement (I would add AC to the gas furnace, so I'm guessing the gas/AC unit would cost more to buy initially than the heat pump, especially if I have to shell out for the gas line to be run). Coming from the midwest, electric heat was always seen as significatly more costly than natural gas, but I don't know if this is still the case just in general, and particularly if it would be true given this region's relatively low electric rates. Any helpful comments appreciated. TIA, Dan What altitude are you at? Microclimates in "the Seattle area" vary widely and wildly. Go up 3,000 feet and you have a whole different set of heat needs than if you are on Puget Sound. What is the back up heat source for your heat pump? Resistance electric? What is your power ompany, Seattle City Power and Light, or Tacoma Power, with preference access to BPA hydro, or a private utility like Avista with no current access to BPA hydro? What will the effect be two years from now of the 9th Circuit ruling last August re BPA preference power and the legislation pending in the US Senate to overturn that ruling, and let the investor owned uilities have some of the BPA hydro? What will the gas co charge you for an install from the mains in the street into your basement? Are you going to convert from electric to gas stove? (I would, I hate electric stoves). Willyou get a discount on the gas pipe install if you switch the stove and the domestic ot water heater while you add gas heat? What do manual D (?), manual M (?) manual J (?) calculations tell you about the heating / cooling needs for your house. How well insulated is it? What kind of windows do you have? You need answers to all these quesions before you can make a knowledgable "guesstimate" on the efficacy of electric heat pump vs. gas. Gut rule of thumb here in Portland, Oregon, where we are generally without the benefit of heap BPA hydro is that gas in a 90% or 95% efficient furnace is cheaper, by a long margin, than an electric ea pump with supplmental resistance heat. And furnaces tend to have a much longer operating life than a heat pump. Espeially a heat pump who's compressor is used for AC as well as heat And why do you need AC in the Seattle area? How old is that heat pump you are considering replacing? |
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How to compare electric vs natural gas heating costs
On Sat, 05 Jan 2008 08:51:41 -0800, jJim McLaughlin
wrote: [...] Gut rule of thumb here in Portland, Oregon, where we are generally without the benefit of heap BPA hydro is that gas in a 90% or 95% efficient furnace is cheaper, by a long margin, than an electric ea pump with supplmental resistance heat.... Hi Jim, It might be helpful if we take a closer look at the numbers. The trailing block rate for residential customers who opt for PGE's standard domestic service pay $0.09246 per kWh ($0.07471 per kWh for the first 250 kWh/month), so a heat pump with a HSPF of 8.5 (Zone IV) would provide heat at an effective cost of just 3.7 cents per kWh(e). For those not be familiar with the term, HSPF or Heating Seasonal Performance Factor is defined as "the total space heating required during the space heating season, expressed in Btu’s, divided by the total electrical energy consumed by the heat pump system during the same season, expressed in watt-hours." Source: ARI Standard 210/240-2006 It's important to note that this seasonal average cost of 3.7 cents per kWh includes the cost of supplemental or backup electric resistance heat -- the HSPF rating incorporates this additional backup heat into the final numbers. In terms of natural gas, according to the DOE, Oregon residents paid an average of a $1.43 per therm in 2006 (the average cost as of October 2007 was $1.56). Assuming an AFUE of 90 per cent, that puts the current cost of gas heat at 5.9 cents per kWh(e). That being the case, the operating costs of a high efficiency natural gas furnace are 1.6 times higher than our reference heat pump. Cheers, Paul |
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How to compare electric vs natural gas heating costs
Paul M. Eldridge wrote:
On Sat, 05 Jan 2008 08:51:41 -0800, jJim McLaughlin wrote: [...] Gut rule of thumb here in Portland, Oregon, where we are generally without the benefit of heap BPA hydro is that gas in a 90% or 95% efficient furnace is cheaper, by a long margin, than an electric ea pump with supplmental resistance heat.... Hi Jim, It might be helpful if we take a closer look at the numbers. The trailing block rate for residential customers who opt for PGE's standard domestic service pay $0.09246 per kWh ($0.07471 per kWh for the first 250 kWh/month), so a heat pump with a HSPF of 8.5 (Zone IV) would provide heat at an effective cost of just 3.7 cents per kWh(e). For those not be familiar with the term, HSPF or Heating Seasonal Performance Factor is defined as "the total space heating required during the space heating season, expressed in Btu’s, divided by the total electrical energy consumed by the heat pump system during the same season, expressed in watt-hours." Source: ARI Standard 210/240-2006 It's important to note that this seasonal average cost of 3.7 cents per kWh includes the cost of supplemental or backup electric resistance heat -- the HSPF rating incorporates this additional backup heat into the final numbers. In terms of natural gas, according to the DOE, Oregon residents paid an average of a $1.43 per therm in 2006 (the average cost as of October 2007 was $1.56). That average cost as of October, 2007, does NOT repeat NOT take into account the NWNG petiion o Oregon PUC to REDUCE (yes, reduce) the gas rates in the NWNG service area as of 1 Decmber 2007. Assuming an AFUE of 90 per cent, that puts the current cost of gas heat at 5.9 cents per kWh(e). That being the case, the operating costs of a high efficiency natural gas furnace are 1.6 times higher than our reference heat pump. Cheers, Paul |
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How to compare electric vs natural gas heating costs
On Sat, 05 Jan 2008 15:20:17 -0800, jJim McLaughlin
wrote: Paul M. Eldridge wrote: On Sat, 05 Jan 2008 08:51:41 -0800, jJim McLaughlin wrote: [...] Gut rule of thumb here in Portland, Oregon, where we are generally without the benefit of heap BPA hydro is that gas in a 90% or 95% efficient furnace is cheaper, by a long margin, than an electric ea pump with supplmental resistance heat.... Hi Jim, It might be helpful if we take a closer look at the numbers. The trailing block rate for residential customers who opt for PGE's standard domestic service pay $0.09246 per kWh ($0.07471 per kWh for the first 250 kWh/month), so a heat pump with a HSPF of 8.5 (Zone IV) would provide heat at an effective cost of just 3.7 cents per kWh(e). For those not be familiar with the term, HSPF or Heating Seasonal Performance Factor is defined as "the total space heating required during the space heating season, expressed in Btu’s, divided by the total electrical energy consumed by the heat pump system during the same season, expressed in watt-hours." Source: ARI Standard 210/240-2006 It's important to note that this seasonal average cost of 3.7 cents per kWh includes the cost of supplemental or backup electric resistance heat -- the HSPF rating incorporates this additional backup heat into the final numbers. In terms of natural gas, according to the DOE, Oregon residents paid an average of a $1.43 per therm in 2006 (the average cost as of October 2007 was $1.56). That average cost as of October, 2007, does NOT repeat NOT take into account the NWNG petiion o Oregon PUC to REDUCE (yes, reduce) the gas rates in the NWNG service area as of 1 Decmber 2007. Hi Jim, You indicate rates were reduced December 1st, but you didn't say by how much. If you can kindly provide me with the current cost per therm/CCF, I'd be pleased to rework the numbers based on this new rate. BTW, for a historical overview of Oregon's natural gas rates, see: http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/ng/hist/n3010or3M.htm Note: Divide these values by 10 to calculate the cost per therm. Cheers, Paul Assuming an AFUE of 90 per cent, that puts the current cost of gas heat at 5.9 cents per kWh(e). That being the case, the operating costs of a high efficiency natural gas furnace are 1.6 times higher than our reference heat pump. Cheers, Paul |
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How to compare electric vs natural gas heating costs
With specific regards to Oregon, the average retail cost of natural
gas per therm/CCF over the past ten years is as follows: 1997 $0.621 1998 $0.681 1999 $0.713 2000 $0.812 2001 $0.970 2002 $1.054 2003 $0.984 2004 $1.111 2005 $1.290 2006 $1.453 Source: http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/ng/hist/n3010or3A.htm The average residential cost of electricity per kWh during this same period is as follows: 1997 $0.0556 1998 $0.0582 1999 $0.0575 2000 $0.0588 2001 $0.0629 2002 $0.0712 2003 $0.0706 2004 $0.0718 2005 $0.0725 2006 $0.0748 Source: Table 8, http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electri...es/oregon.html Assuming an AFUE of 90 per cent and a HSPF of 8.5, the average cost per kWh(e) of natural gas and electric heat in each of these years is as follows (the third column represents the cost premium of natural gas heat versus the aforementioned heat pump): 1997 $0.0235 $0.0222 1.1 X 1998 $0.0258 $0.0233 1.1 X 1999 $0.0270 $0.0230 1.2 X 2000 $0.0308 $0.0235 1.3 X 2001 $0.0368 $0.0252 1.5 X 2002 $0.0400 $0.0285 1.4 X 2003 $0.0373 $0.0282 1.3 X 2004 $0.0421 $0.0287 1.5 X 2005 $0.0489 $0.0290 1.7 X 2006 $0.0551 $0.0299 1.8 X Please note these are state averages, so results will vary according to the specific service provider. Cheers, Paul |
#33
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How to compare electric vs natural gas heating costs
Paul M. Eldridge wrote:
With specific regards to Oregon, the average retail cost of natural gas per therm/CCF... 2006 $1.453 [/0.9x3.41KBtu/kWh/100KBtu = $0.0551/kWh of heat] Source: http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/ng/hist/n3010or3A.htm The average residential cost of electricity per kWh... 2006 $0.0748 [3.41/8.5 = 0.0300/kWh of heat] Source: Table 8, http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electri...es/oregon.html Assuming an AFUE of 90 per cent and a HSPF of 8.5, the average cost per kWh(e) of natural gas and electric heat in each of these years is as follows (the third column represents the cost premium of natural gas heat versus the aforementioned heat pump): 2006 $0.0551 $0.0299 1.8 X Then again, we could run a $200 unvented gas heater with a 100% AFUE and 11% latent heat and run an $80 window AC with an HSPF = EER = 10 indoors when the house RH exceeds 50% to convert that to sensible heat... Or forget the gas heater and run a few ACs with a heating thermostat when the house drops below 70 F and use a humidistat and a solenoid valve and a soaker hose to wet a basement floor when the house RH drops below 50%. Nick |
#34
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How to compare electric vs natural gas heating costs
Paul M. Eldridge wrote:
On Sat, 05 Jan 2008 15:20:17 -0800, jJim McLaughlin wrote: Paul M. Eldridge wrote: On Sat, 05 Jan 2008 08:51:41 -0800, jJim McLaughlin wrote: [...] Gut rule of thumb here in Portland, Oregon, where we are generally without the benefit of heap BPA hydro is that gas in a 90% or 95% efficient furnace is cheaper, by a long margin, than an electric ea pump with supplmental resistance heat.... Hi Jim, It might be helpful if we take a closer look at the numbers. The trailing block rate for residential customers who opt for PGE's standard domestic service pay $0.09246 per kWh ($0.07471 per kWh for the first 250 kWh/month), so a heat pump with a HSPF of 8.5 (Zone IV) would provide heat at an effective cost of just 3.7 cents per kWh(e). For those not be familiar with the term, HSPF or Heating Seasonal Performance Factor is defined as "the total space heating required during the space heating season, expressed in Btu’s, divided by the total electrical energy consumed by the heat pump system during the same season, expressed in watt-hours." Source: ARI Standard 210/240-2006 It's important to note that this seasonal average cost of 3.7 cents per kWh includes the cost of supplemental or backup electric resistance heat -- the HSPF rating incorporates this additional backup heat into the final numbers. In terms of natural gas, according to the DOE, Oregon residents paid an average of a $1.43 per therm in 2006 (the average cost as of October 2007 was $1.56). That average cost as of October, 2007, does NOT repeat NOT take into account the NWNG petiion o Oregon PUC to REDUCE (yes, reduce) the gas rates in the NWNG service area as of 1 Decmber 2007. Hi Jim, You indicate rates were reduced December 1st, but you didn't say by how much. If you can kindly provide me with the current cost per therm/CCF, I'd be pleased to rework the numbers based on this new rate. Paul - I dug aound the web site for the local gas company (Northwest Natural Gas, Portlad, Or) and came across their Oregon Tariff Schedule. The price reduction was actually 1 November 2007, not 1 December 2007. The link to the tariff is: https://www.nwnatural.com/CMS300/upl...iles/242ai.pdf I am giving you that as I am not really sure how to read the tariff. It seeems that you havea lot more skill at that than I do. If I am reading the Oregon Tariff schedule correctly, the current per Therm cost for residential gas service is $ 1.22449. I am looking for my local electric utility rate (Portland Geeral Electric) and will shoot that out to you as soon as I find it. PGE's rates are at besyt byzantine. By the way, thanks for the ongoing education. |
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How to compare electric vs natural gas heating costs
Paul M. Eldridge wrote:
On Sat, 05 Jan 2008 15:20:17 -0800, jJim McLaughlin wrote: Paul M. Eldridge wrote: On Sat, 05 Jan 2008 08:51:41 -0800, jJim McLaughlin wrote: [...] Gut rule of thumb here in Portland, Oregon, where we are generally without the benefit of heap BPA hydro is that gas in a 90% or 95% efficient furnace is cheaper, by a long margin, than an electric ea pump with supplmental resistance heat.... Hi Jim, It might be helpful if we take a closer look at the numbers. The trailing block rate for residential customers who opt for PGE's standard domestic service pay $0.09246 per kWh ($0.07471 per kWh for the first 250 kWh/month), so a heat pump with a HSPF of 8.5 (Zone IV) would provide heat at an effective cost of just 3.7 cents per kWh(e). For those not be familiar with the term, HSPF or Heating Seasonal Performance Factor is defined as "the total space heating required during the space heating season, expressed in Btu’s, divided by the total electrical energy consumed by the heat pump system during the same season, expressed in watt-hours." Source: ARI Standard 210/240-2006 It's important to note that this seasonal average cost of 3.7 cents per kWh includes the cost of supplemental or backup electric resistance heat -- the HSPF rating incorporates this additional backup heat into the final numbers. In terms of natural gas, according to the DOE, Oregon residents paid an average of a $1.43 per therm in 2006 (the average cost as of October 2007 was $1.56). That average cost as of October, 2007, does NOT repeat NOT take into account the NWNG petiion o Oregon PUC to REDUCE (yes, reduce) the gas rates in the NWNG service area as of 1 Decmber 2007. Hi Jim, You indicate rates were reduced December 1st, but you didn't say by how much. If you can kindly provide me with the current cost per therm/CCF, I'd be pleased to rework the numbers based on this new rate. The Portland General Electric residential tariff is available at http://www.portlandgeneral.com/about_pge/regulatory_affairs/pdfs/schedules/sched_007.pdf As I said in another post, it is byzantne at best. I am a residential customer, single phase power, no renewable energy "blocks"; no "conservaton" blocks, just straight power. While this is the mst recent (Feb. 2007) tariff on the web site, I think that this tariff schedule from the PGE website is not what is currrently in effect. PGE had huge (like 25%) rate icreases in June - July 2007 when the 9th Circuit invalidated all the BPA offset payments / sales of cheap hydro to the ivestor ulitiies in the NW. Oregon PUC approved an emergency rate increase for PGE (and others - Pacific Power and Light, for example) effective early summer 2007. I'm going to look atthe Oregon Public Utility Commission (PUC) site to see if there is anything more transparent as to PGE rates. |
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How to compare electric vs natural gas heating costs
Hi Jim,
Thanks for the additional info. In my original analysis, I had used $0.09246 as PGE's standard domestic rate, but if this rate has since changed and the schedule shown on PGE's website is out-of-date, please let me know. Again, an air-source heat pump with a HSPF of 8.5 will provide, on average, 2.5 kWh of heat for every kWh consumed, so your effective cost of electric heat is 3.7 cents per kWh(e). At $1.22449 per therm and assuming an AFUE of 90 per cent, your cost per kWh of natural gas heat works out to be 4.64 cents. In this case, natural gas must fall below $0.98/therm before it breaks even. For argument sake, we'll assume a typical new home in your climate requires 50 million BTUs/year for space heating purposes. At current rates, if it were heated with electric baseboard units, the cost would be just under $1,355.00, whereas that same home heated with an air-source heat pump would come in at $542.00. Equipped with a high efficiency natural gas furnace (90% AFUE) and at $1.22449 per therm, a homeowner could expect to pay something in the order of $680.00/year. Natural gas is a terrific fuel but we're quickly running out of it and over the long term, not withstanding any temporary price fluctuations, it's going to get increasingly more expensive. For anyone building a new home or replacing their current heating system, I hope you consider either an air or ground source heat pump as one more option. Cheers, Paul |
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