Recently bought a house in the Seattle area, built about 1980. At the time
the house was built, there was no gas in the area. The house has a heat
pump, which is nearing the end of its life. Natural gas is now available in
the area. I'm wondering if I should go with another heat pump, or natural
gas. Since about 80% of the electricity here is hydro, it's relatively
cheap, about $.08/KWH. I don't know what the price of the gas is per cu',
but I could find out. Is there a way I could get a rough estimate of how
much natural gas I would consume to heat the house, based on the electricity
used for this purpose? There are a lot of confounding factors, the relative
efficiency of the 2 units (old heat pump vs new nat'l gas furnace), the fact
that I also use electric to heat water, etc. (can probably find some rough
figure for factoring this out) the relative costs of each type of
replacement (I would add AC to the gas furnace, so I'm guessing the gas/AC
unit would cost more to buy initially than the heat pump, especially if I
have to shell out for the gas line to be run). Coming from the midwest,
electric heat was always seen as significatly more costly than natural gas,
but I don't know if this is still the case just in general, and particularly
if it would be true given this region's relatively low electric rates. Any
helpful comments appreciated.

TIA,

Dan

"Dan" wrote in message
. ..
Recently bought a house in the Seattle area, built about 1980. At the
time the house was built, there was no gas in the area. The house has a
heat pump, which is nearing the end of its life. Natural gas is now
available in the area. I'm wondering if I should go with another heat
pump, or natural gas. Since about 80% of the electricity here is hydro,
it's relatively cheap, about $.08/KWH. I don't know what the price of the
gas is per cu', but I could find out. Is there a way I could get a rough
estimate of how much natural gas I would consume to heat the house, based
on the electricity used for this purpose?

Your electric is about half what I pay. You can plug in numbers here to get
a pretty good comparison based on using the same Btu for your house. You
need to know the cost of gas, of course.
http://hearth.com/econtent/index.php...on_calculator/

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
t...

Your electric is about half what I pay. You can plug in numbers here to
get a pretty good comparison based on using the same Btu for your house.
You need to know the cost of gas, of course.
http://hearth.com/econtent/index.php...on_calculator/

Thanks Ed, that looks ideal!

Dan

On Fri, 7 Dec 2007 17:53:55 -0800, "Dan" wrote:

Recently bought a house in the Seattle area, built about 1980. At the time
the house was built, there was no gas in the area. The house has a heat
pump, which is nearing the end of its life. Natural gas is now available in
the area. I'm wondering if I should go with another heat pump, or natural
gas. Since about 80% of the electricity here is hydro, it's relatively
cheap, about $.08/KWH. I don't know what the price of the gas is per cu',
but I could find out. Is there a way I could get a rough estimate of how
much natural gas I would consume to heat the house, based on the electricity
used for this purpose? There are a lot of confounding factors, the relative
efficiency of the 2 units (old heat pump vs new nat'l gas furnace), the fact
that I also use electric to heat water, etc. (can probably find some rough
figure for factoring this out) the relative costs of each type of
replacement (I would add AC to the gas furnace, so I'm guessing the gas/AC
unit would cost more to buy initially than the heat pump, especially if I
have to shell out for the gas line to be run). Coming from the midwest,
electric heat was always seen as significatly more costly than natural gas,
but I don't know if this is still the case just in general, and particularly
if it would be true given this region's relatively low electric rates. Any
helpful comments appreciated.

TIA,

Dan

Dan, I live in "The Energy City" where they have cheap hydro-power
and a nearby nuclear power plant. We can generate more electricity to
supply all of New York City in one of out buildings, yet heating the
house with natural gas is less expensive than electrically heated. I
have all gas appliances, except for A/C. You might get a better clue
by talking with your neighbors.

Phisherman wrote:

On Fri, 7 Dec 2007 17:53:55 -0800, "Dan" wrote:

Recently bought a house in the Seattle area, built about 1980. At the time
the house was built, there was no gas in the area. The house has a heat
pump, which is nearing the end of its life. Natural gas is now available in
the area. I'm wondering if I should go with another heat pump, or natural
gas. Since about 80% of the electricity here is hydro, it's relatively
cheap, about $.08/KWH. I don't know what the price of the gas is per cu',
but I could find out. Is there a way I could get a rough estimate of how
much natural gas I would consume to heat the house, based on the electricity
used for this purpose? There are a lot of confounding factors, the relative
efficiency of the 2 units (old heat pump vs new nat'l gas furnace), the fact
that I also use electric to heat water, etc. (can probably find some rough
figure for factoring this out) the relative costs of each type of
replacement (I would add AC to the gas furnace, so I'm guessing the gas/AC
unit would cost more to buy initially than the heat pump, especially if I
have to shell out for the gas line to be run). Coming from the midwest,
electric heat was always seen as significatly more costly than natural gas,
but I don't know if this is still the case just in general, and particularly
if it would be true given this region's relatively low electric rates. Any
helpful comments appreciated.

TIA,

Dan

Dan, I live in "The Energy City" where they have cheap hydro-power
and a nearby nuclear power plant. We can generate more electricity to
supply all of New York City in one of out buildings, yet heating the
house with natural gas is less expensive than electrically heated. I
have all gas appliances, except for A/C. You might get a better clue
by talking with your neighbors.

Are you comparing electric-resistive heating, or the current generation
of electric powered ground source (geothermal) heat pumps? There is a
very large efficiency difference between them.

On Dec 8, 9:22 am, "Pete C." wrote:
Phisherman wrote:

On Fri, 7 Dec 2007 17:53:55 -0800, "Dan" wrote:

Recently bought a house in the Seattle area, built about 1980. At the time
the house was built, there was no gas in the area. The house has a heat
pump, which is nearing the end of its life. Natural gas is now available in
the area. I'm wondering if I should go with another heat pump, or natural
gas. Since about 80% of the electricity here is hydro, it's relatively
cheap, about $.08/KWH. I don't know what the price of the gas is per cu',
but I could find out. Is there a way I could get a rough estimate of how
much natural gas I would consume to heat the house, based on the electricity
used for this purpose? There are a lot of confounding factors, the relative
efficiency of the 2 units (old heat pump vs new nat'l gas furnace), the fact
that I also use electric to heat water, etc. (can probably find some rough
figure for factoring this out) the relative costs of each type of
replacement (I would add AC to the gas furnace, so I'm guessing the gas/AC
unit would cost more to buy initially than the heat pump, especially if I
have to shell out for the gas line to be run). Coming from the midwest,
electric heat was always seen as significatly more costly than natural gas,
but I don't know if this is still the case just in general, and particularly
if it would be true given this region's relatively low electric rates. Any
helpful comments appreciated.

TIA,

Dan

Dan, I live in "The Energy City" where they have cheap hydro-power
and a nearby nuclear power plant. We can generate more electricity to
supply all of New York City in one of out buildings, yet heating the
house with natural gas is less expensive than electrically heated. I
have all gas appliances, except for A/C. You might get a better clue
by talking with your neighbors.

Are you comparing electric-resistive heating, or the current generation
of electric powered ground source (geothermal) heat pumps? There is a
very large efficiency difference between them.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Agree. There is confusion of terms from the beginning of this
thread. The term "electric heat" is usually used to refer to systems
using resistance heating elements. Heat pump is a system that uses a
compressor powered by electricity. And another factor is heat pumps
can then use either air or geothermal to exchange the heat. Heat
pumps systems usually have a backup heat source, usually electric to
be used at lower temps. There is a world of difference in terms of
operating costs between resistance heat and a heat pump. Just about
everywhere, nat gas is going to be cheaper than electric resistance
heating to operate. But a heat pump system could be a good
alternative, depending on the climate and fuel costs.

wrote in message
...
Agree. There is confusion of terms from the beginning of this
thread. The term "electric heat" is usually used to refer to systems
using resistance heating elements. Heat pump is a system that uses a
compressor powered by electricity. And another factor is heat pumps
can then use either air or geothermal to exchange the heat. Heat
pumps systems usually have a backup heat source, usually electric to
be used at lower temps. There is a world of difference in terms of
operating costs between resistance heat and a heat pump. Just about
everywhere, nat gas is going to be cheaper than electric resistance
heating to operate. But a heat pump system could be a good
alternative, depending on the climate and fuel costs.


I don't know what confusion you're referring to, when I started this thread
I clearly stated I now have & am considering a heat pump for replacement.
Like most heat pumps, my current system has resistive backup heat for when
it's really cold, but such low temps are pretty rare around here. I'm
aware of geothermal heat pumps, though I have not researched them in depth.
Our lot is a little over 1 acre, but about 80% of that is heavily forested
and on fairly rough terrain. Obviously, the installation costs of such a
system, whether the horizontal or vertical variety, would be significantly
higher than simply plopping another box on the ground. Either way, I may
not be living here more than about 5 years, so recouping higher installation
costs over time, even for just a top of the line "high efficiency" gas or
air-source heat pump, let alone a geo, is probably not going to happen.

Another factor is the potential price stability of the 2 energy sources. No
one has a crystal ball, but it seems logical to expect the price of
hydro-sourced electricity to be more stable over time than natural gas.

Thanks all for the replies.

Dan

On Dec 8, 2:15 pm, "Dan" wrote:
wrote in message

...

Agree. There is confusion of terms from the beginning of this
thread. The term "electric heat" is usually used to refer to systems
using resistance heating elements. Heat pump is a system that uses a
compressor powered by electricity. And another factor is heat pumps
can then use either air or geothermal to exchange the heat. Heat
pumps systems usually have a backup heat source, usually electric to
be used at lower temps. There is a world of difference in terms of
operating costs between resistance heat and a heat pump. Just about
everywhere, nat gas is going to be cheaper than electric resistance
heating to operate. But a heat pump system could be a good
alternative, depending on the climate and fuel costs.

I don't know what confusion you're referring to, when I started this thread
I clearly stated I now have & am considering a heat pump for replacement.

The title of you post was "How to compare electric heat vs natural gas
heat". That's confusing, because what you're talking about is a heat
pump, not resistance electric heat. Phisherman responded with a
post saying where he lives, even with low electricity costs, electric
heat is more expensive. I think what he means is electric resistance
heat, not an electrically drive heap pump, is more expensive. But
there is no way of knowing when you misuse the commonly acceptedus
terms.



Like most heat pumps, my current system has resistive backup heat for when
it's really cold, but such low temps are pretty rare around here. I'm
aware of geothermal heat pumps, though I have not researched them in depth.
Our lot is a little over 1 acre, but about 80% of that is heavily forested
and on fairly rough terrain. Obviously, the installation costs of such a
system, whether the horizontal or vertical variety, would be significantly
higher than simply plopping another box on the ground. Either way, I may
not be living here more than about 5 years, so recouping higher installation
costs over time, even for just a top of the line "high efficiency" gas or
air-source heat pump, let alone a geo, is probably not going to happen.

Another factor is the potential price stability of the 2 energy sources. No
one has a crystal ball, but it seems logical to expect the price of
hydro-sourced electricity to be more stable over time than natural gas.

Thanks all for the replies.

Dan

Dan wrote:

wrote in message
...
Agree. There is confusion of terms from the beginning of this
thread. The term "electric heat" is usually used to refer to systems
using resistance heating elements. Heat pump is a system that uses a
compressor powered by electricity. And another factor is heat pumps
can then use either air or geothermal to exchange the heat. Heat
pumps systems usually have a backup heat source, usually electric to
be used at lower temps. There is a world of difference in terms of
operating costs between resistance heat and a heat pump. Just about
everywhere, nat gas is going to be cheaper than electric resistance
heating to operate. But a heat pump system could be a good
alternative, depending on the climate and fuel costs.


I don't know what confusion you're referring to, when I started this thread
I clearly stated I now have & am considering a heat pump for replacement.
Like most heat pumps, my current system has resistive backup heat for when
it's really cold, but such low temps are pretty rare around here. I'm
aware of geothermal heat pumps, though I have not researched them in depth.
Our lot is a little over 1 acre, but about 80% of that is heavily forested
and on fairly rough terrain. Obviously, the installation costs of such a
system, whether the horizontal or vertical variety, would be significantly
higher than simply plopping another box on the ground. Either way, I may
not be living here more than about 5 years, so recouping higher installation
costs over time, even for just a top of the line "high efficiency" gas or
air-source heat pump, let alone a geo, is probably not going to happen.

Another factor is the potential price stability of the 2 energy sources. No
one has a crystal ball, but it seems logical to expect the price of
hydro-sourced electricity to be more stable over time than natural gas.

Thanks all for the replies.

Dan

For a geothermal heat pump, trenched vertical coil installation is the
easiest and cheapest and is as efficient as other installation types in
most situations. Basically you cut a trench with a big ditch witch and
then stretch a coil of tubing like a flattened slinky, put it in the
trench and back fill with some suitable material. Fast and easy and
minimal impact to the area.

Dan wrote:
Recently bought a house in the Seattle area, built about 1980. At the time
the house was built, there was no gas in the area. The house has a heat
pump, which is nearing the end of its life. Natural gas is now available in
the area. I'm wondering if I should go with another heat pump, or natural
gas. Since about 80% of the electricity here is hydro, it's relatively
cheap, about $.08/KWH. I don't know what the price of the gas is per cu',
but I could find out. Is there a way I could get a rough estimate of how
much natural gas I would consume to heat the house, based on the electricity
used for this purpose? There are a lot of confounding factors, the relative
efficiency of the 2 units (old heat pump vs new nat'l gas furnace), the fact
that I also use electric to heat water, etc. (can probably find some rough
figure for factoring this out) the relative costs of each type of
replacement (I would add AC to the gas furnace, so I'm guessing the gas/AC
unit would cost more to buy initially than the heat pump, especially if I
have to shell out for the gas line to be run). Coming from the midwest,
electric heat was always seen as significatly more costly than natural gas,
but I don't know if this is still the case just in general, and particularly
if it would be true given this region's relatively low electric rates. Any
helpful comments appreciated.

TIA,

Dan



What altitude are you at? Microclimates in "the Seattle area" vary
widely and wildly.
Go up 3,000 feet and you have a whole different set of heat needs than
if you are on
Puget Sound.

What is the back up heat source for your heat pump? Resistance electric?
What is your power ompany, Seattle City Power and Light, or Tacoma
Power, with preference access to BPA hydro, or a private utility like
Avista with no current access to BPA hydro?

What will the effect be two years from now of the 9th Circuit ruling
last August re
BPA preference power and the legislation pending in the US Senate to
overturn
that ruling, and let the investor owned uilities have some of the BPA hydro?

What will the gas co charge you for an install from the mains in the
street into
your basement?

Are you going to convert from electric to gas stove? (I would, I hate
electric stoves).
Willyou get a discount on the gas pipe install if you switch the stove
and the domestic
ot water heater while you add gas heat?

What do manual D (?), manual M (?) manual J (?) calculations tell you about
the heating / cooling needs for your house. How well insulated is it?
What kind of windows do you have?

You need answers to all these quesions before you can make a knowledgable
"guesstimate" on the efficacy of electric heat pump vs. gas.

Gut rule of thumb here in Portland, Oregon, where we are generally
without the benefit
of heap BPA hydro is that gas in a 90% or 95% efficient furnace is
cheaper, by a long margin, than an electric ea pump with supplmental
resistance heat. And furnaces tend to have a much longer
operating life than a heat pump. Espeially a heat pump who's compressor
is used for AC as well as heat

And why do you need AC in the Seattle area?

How old is that heat pump you are considering replacing?

On Sat, 05 Jan 2008 08:51:41 -0800, jJim McLaughlin
wrote:

[...]
Gut rule of thumb here in Portland, Oregon, where we are generally
without the benefit of heap BPA hydro is that gas in a 90% or 95%
efficient furnace is cheaper, by a long margin, than an electric ea pump with supplmental
resistance heat....

Hi Jim,

It might be helpful if we take a closer look at the numbers. The
trailing block rate for residential customers who opt for PGE's
standard domestic service pay $0.09246 per kWh ($0.07471 per kWh for
the first 250 kWh/month), so a heat pump with a HSPF of 8.5 (Zone IV)
would provide heat at an effective cost of just 3.7 cents per kWh(e).

For those not be familiar with the term, HSPF or Heating Seasonal
Performance Factor is defined as "the total space heating required
during the space heating season, expressed in Btu’s, divided by the
total electrical energy consumed by the heat pump system during the
same season, expressed in watt-hours."

Source: ARI Standard 210/240-2006

It's important to note that this seasonal average cost of 3.7 cents
per kWh includes the cost of supplemental or backup electric
resistance heat -- the HSPF rating incorporates this additional backup
heat into the final numbers.

In terms of natural gas, according to the DOE, Oregon residents paid
an average of a $1.43 per therm in 2006 (the average cost as of
October 2007 was $1.56). Assuming an AFUE of 90 per cent, that puts
the current cost of gas heat at 5.9 cents per kWh(e). That being the
case, the operating costs of a high efficiency natural gas furnace are
1.6 times higher than our reference heat pump.

Cheers,
Paul

Paul M. Eldridge wrote:
On Sat, 05 Jan 2008 08:51:41 -0800, jJim McLaughlin
wrote:


[...]
Gut rule of thumb here in Portland, Oregon, where we are generally
without the benefit of heap BPA hydro is that gas in a 90% or 95%
efficient furnace is cheaper, by a long margin, than an electric ea pump with supplmental
resistance heat....


Hi Jim,

It might be helpful if we take a closer look at the numbers. The
trailing block rate for residential customers who opt for PGE's
standard domestic service pay $0.09246 per kWh ($0.07471 per kWh for
the first 250 kWh/month), so a heat pump with a HSPF of 8.5 (Zone IV)
would provide heat at an effective cost of just 3.7 cents per kWh(e).

For those not be familiar with the term, HSPF or Heating Seasonal
Performance Factor is defined as "the total space heating required
during the space heating season, expressed in Btu’s, divided by the
total electrical energy consumed by the heat pump system during the
same season, expressed in watt-hours."

Source: ARI Standard 210/240-2006

It's important to note that this seasonal average cost of 3.7 cents
per kWh includes the cost of supplemental or backup electric
resistance heat -- the HSPF rating incorporates this additional backup
heat into the final numbers.

In terms of natural gas, according to the DOE, Oregon residents paid
an average of a $1.43 per therm in 2006 (the average cost as of
October 2007 was $1.56).

That average cost as of October, 2007, does NOT repeat NOT take into
account the NWNG petiion o Oregon PUC to REDUCE (yes, reduce) the gas
rates in the NWNG service area as of 1 Decmber 2007.



Assuming an AFUE of 90 per cent, that puts
the current cost of gas heat at 5.9 cents per kWh(e). That being the
case, the operating costs of a high efficiency natural gas furnace are
1.6 times higher than our reference heat pump.

Cheers,
Paul

On Sat, 05 Jan 2008 15:20:17 -0800, jJim McLaughlin
wrote:

Paul M. Eldridge wrote:
On Sat, 05 Jan 2008 08:51:41 -0800, jJim McLaughlin
wrote:


[...]
Gut rule of thumb here in Portland, Oregon, where we are generally
without the benefit of heap BPA hydro is that gas in a 90% or 95%
efficient furnace is cheaper, by a long margin, than an electric ea pump with supplmental
resistance heat....


Hi Jim,

It might be helpful if we take a closer look at the numbers. The
trailing block rate for residential customers who opt for PGE's
standard domestic service pay $0.09246 per kWh ($0.07471 per kWh for
the first 250 kWh/month), so a heat pump with a HSPF of 8.5 (Zone IV)
would provide heat at an effective cost of just 3.7 cents per kWh(e).

For those not be familiar with the term, HSPF or Heating Seasonal
Performance Factor is defined as "the total space heating required
during the space heating season, expressed in Btu’s, divided by the
total electrical energy consumed by the heat pump system during the
same season, expressed in watt-hours."

Source: ARI Standard 210/240-2006

It's important to note that this seasonal average cost of 3.7 cents
per kWh includes the cost of supplemental or backup electric
resistance heat -- the HSPF rating incorporates this additional backup
heat into the final numbers.

In terms of natural gas, according to the DOE, Oregon residents paid
an average of a $1.43 per therm in 2006 (the average cost as of
October 2007 was $1.56).

That average cost as of October, 2007, does NOT repeat NOT take into
account the NWNG petiion o Oregon PUC to REDUCE (yes, reduce) the gas
rates in the NWNG service area as of 1 Decmber 2007.


Hi Jim,

You indicate rates were reduced December 1st, but you didn't say by
how much. If you can kindly provide me with the current cost per
therm/CCF, I'd be pleased to rework the numbers based on this new
rate.

BTW, for a historical overview of Oregon's natural gas rates, see:
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/ng/hist/n3010or3M.htm

Note: Divide these values by 10 to calculate the cost per therm.

Cheers,
Paul

Assuming an AFUE of 90 per cent, that puts
the current cost of gas heat at 5.9 cents per kWh(e). That being the
case, the operating costs of a high efficiency natural gas furnace are
1.6 times higher than our reference heat pump.

Cheers,
Paul

With specific regards to Oregon, the average retail cost of natural
gas per therm/CCF over the past ten years is as follows:

1997 $0.621
1998 $0.681
1999 $0.713
2000 $0.812
2001 $0.970
2002 $1.054
2003 $0.984
2004 $1.111
2005 $1.290
2006 $1.453

Source: http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/ng/hist/n3010or3A.htm

The average residential cost of electricity per kWh during this same
period is as follows:

1997 $0.0556
1998 $0.0582
1999 $0.0575
2000 $0.0588
2001 $0.0629
2002 $0.0712
2003 $0.0706
2004 $0.0718
2005 $0.0725
2006 $0.0748

Source: Table 8,
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electri...es/oregon.html

Assuming an AFUE of 90 per cent and a HSPF of 8.5, the average cost
per kWh(e) of natural gas and electric heat in each of these years is
as follows (the third column represents the cost premium of natural
gas heat versus the aforementioned heat pump):

1997 $0.0235 $0.0222 1.1 X
1998 $0.0258 $0.0233 1.1 X
1999 $0.0270 $0.0230 1.2 X
2000 $0.0308 $0.0235 1.3 X
2001 $0.0368 $0.0252 1.5 X
2002 $0.0400 $0.0285 1.4 X
2003 $0.0373 $0.0282 1.3 X
2004 $0.0421 $0.0287 1.5 X
2005 $0.0489 $0.0290 1.7 X
2006 $0.0551 $0.0299 1.8 X

Please note these are state averages, so results will vary according
to the specific service provider.

Cheers,
Paul

Paul M. Eldridge wrote:
On Sat, 05 Jan 2008 15:20:17 -0800, jJim McLaughlin
wrote:


Paul M. Eldridge wrote:

On Sat, 05 Jan 2008 08:51:41 -0800, jJim McLaughlin
wrote:



[...]
Gut rule of thumb here in Portland, Oregon, where we are generally
without the benefit of heap BPA hydro is that gas in a 90% or 95%
efficient furnace is cheaper, by a long margin, than an electric ea pump with supplmental
resistance heat....


Hi Jim,

It might be helpful if we take a closer look at the numbers. The
trailing block rate for residential customers who opt for PGE's
standard domestic service pay $0.09246 per kWh ($0.07471 per kWh for
the first 250 kWh/month), so a heat pump with a HSPF of 8.5 (Zone IV)
would provide heat at an effective cost of just 3.7 cents per kWh(e).

For those not be familiar with the term, HSPF or Heating Seasonal
Performance Factor is defined as "the total space heating required
during the space heating season, expressed in Btu’s, divided by the
total electrical energy consumed by the heat pump system during the
same season, expressed in watt-hours."

Source: ARI Standard 210/240-2006

It's important to note that this seasonal average cost of 3.7 cents
per kWh includes the cost of supplemental or backup electric
resistance heat -- the HSPF rating incorporates this additional backup
heat into the final numbers.

In terms of natural gas, according to the DOE, Oregon residents paid
an average of a $1.43 per therm in 2006 (the average cost as of
October 2007 was $1.56).

That average cost as of October, 2007, does NOT repeat NOT take into
account the NWNG petiion o Oregon PUC to REDUCE (yes, reduce) the gas
rates in the NWNG service area as of 1 Decmber 2007.



Hi Jim,

You indicate rates were reduced December 1st, but you didn't say by
how much. If you can kindly provide me with the current cost per
therm/CCF, I'd be pleased to rework the numbers based on this new
rate.

Paul -

I dug aound the web site for the local gas company
(Northwest Natural Gas, Portlad, Or) and came across their Oregon Tariff
Schedule.

The price reduction was actually 1 November 2007, not 1 December 2007.

The link to the tariff is:

https://www.nwnatural.com/CMS300/upl...iles/242ai.pdf

I am giving you that as I am not really sure how to read the tariff.
It seeems that you havea lot more skill at that than I do.

If I am reading the Oregon Tariff schedule correctly, the current
per Therm cost for residential gas service is $ 1.22449.

I am looking for my local electric utility rate (Portland Geeral
Electric) and
will shoot that out to you as soon as I find it. PGE's rates are at
besyt byzantine.

By the way, thanks for the ongoing education.

Paul M. Eldridge wrote:

On Sat, 05 Jan 2008 15:20:17 -0800, jJim McLaughlin
wrote:


Paul M. Eldridge wrote:

On Sat, 05 Jan 2008 08:51:41 -0800, jJim McLaughlin
wrote:



[...]
Gut rule of thumb here in Portland, Oregon, where we are generally
without the benefit of heap BPA hydro is that gas in a 90% or 95%
efficient furnace is cheaper, by a long margin, than an electric ea pump with supplmental
resistance heat....


Hi Jim,

It might be helpful if we take a closer look at the numbers. The
trailing block rate for residential customers who opt for PGE's
standard domestic service pay $0.09246 per kWh ($0.07471 per kWh for
the first 250 kWh/month), so a heat pump with a HSPF of 8.5 (Zone IV)
would provide heat at an effective cost of just 3.7 cents per kWh(e).

For those not be familiar with the term, HSPF or Heating Seasonal
Performance Factor is defined as "the total space heating required
during the space heating season, expressed in Btu’s, divided by the
total electrical energy consumed by the heat pump system during the
same season, expressed in watt-hours."

Source: ARI Standard 210/240-2006

It's important to note that this seasonal average cost of 3.7 cents
per kWh includes the cost of supplemental or backup electric
resistance heat -- the HSPF rating incorporates this additional backup
heat into the final numbers.

In terms of natural gas, according to the DOE, Oregon residents paid
an average of a $1.43 per therm in 2006 (the average cost as of
October 2007 was $1.56).

That average cost as of October, 2007, does NOT repeat NOT take into
account the NWNG petiion o Oregon PUC to REDUCE (yes, reduce) the gas
rates in the NWNG service area as of 1 Decmber 2007.



Hi Jim,

You indicate rates were reduced December 1st, but you didn't say by
how much. If you can kindly provide me with the current cost per
therm/CCF, I'd be pleased to rework the numbers based on this new
rate.


The Portland General Electric residential tariff is available at

http://www.portlandgeneral.com/about_pge/regulatory_affairs/pdfs/schedules/sched_007.pdf

As I said in another post, it is byzantne at best.

I am a residential customer, single phase power, no renewable energy
"blocks";
no "conservaton" blocks, just straight power.

While this is the mst recent (Feb. 2007) tariff on the web site, I think
that this tariff
schedule from the PGE website is not what is currrently in effect. PGE
had huge
(like 25%) rate icreases in June - July 2007 when the 9th Circuit
invalidated all
the BPA offset payments / sales of cheap hydro to the ivestor ulitiies
in the NW.
Oregon PUC approved an emergency rate increase for PGE (and others -
Pacific Power and Light, for example) effective early summer 2007.

I'm going to look atthe Oregon Public Utility Commission (PUC) site to
see if there is anything more transparent as to PGE rates.

"Bubba" wrote in message
...

Here. Lets confuse you just a bit more.
Whats wrong with a 95% gas furnace with a heat pump instead of the
usual straight cooling only?
Ive got it and love it. Gives you a bit more ability to play with the
fuel prices. Takes only a Honeywell Vision Pro stat (and outddor temp
sensor) to control it all.
Bubba

Sounds interesting, I'll check it out.

Thanks

Dan