Anyone have any good wiring links?

Doing a Google search returns to much junk. I wonder if there are any tip
pages people know about for this which are QUALITY, to save hours of time
going through bad Google results?

If you ask a specific question, you'll get plenty of quality answers right
here




"StarMan" wrote in message
...
Anyone have any good wiring links?

Doing a Google search returns to much junk. I wonder if there are any tip
pages people know about for this which are QUALITY, to save hours of time
going through bad Google results?

StarMan wrote:

Anyone have any good wiring links?

Doing a Google search returns to much junk. I wonder if there are any tip
pages people know about for this which are QUALITY, to save hours of time
going through bad Google results?

Try the reputable sites like This Old House, Hometime, HGTV, as well as
the Depot and Lowe's sites, all should have ome content available,
probably Pop Sci / Pop Mech as well. Or go to Depot, Lowe's or your
local library (yes libraries still exist) and get a basic home wiring
book.

According to :
On Fri, 9 Nov 2007 05:40:42 -0500, "StarMan"
wrote:

Anyone have any good wiring links?

Doing a Google search returns to much junk. I wonder if there are any tip
pages people know about for this which are QUALITY, to save hours of time
going through bad Google results?

The short answer is probably "you can't do it without a service
upgrade". If you have a spare "pullout" it is easy but that is unusual
on an old fuse panel.

I think "pullouts" in this context are double fuse blocks that plug into
the fuse panel backplane. Those designed for a 240V circuit have hinged
interlocking covers on them on them that prevent the fuses being
unscrewed without removing the whole "pullout", so both sides of the
circuit are dead. The fuses in pullouts designed for 120V circuits can
simply be unscrewed without removing the block, and these blocks are
intended to be left in the panel more-or-less permanently.

We kept some spares of both types when we wired a cottage back
in the early 70's ;-)

If you don't have a spare, it's still usually possible to obtain
one - either at a proper "electrical supply" place, or at fleamarkets.

Not all fuse panel types have pullouts, and those that do don't
physically _have_ to have "interlocking" pullouts installed for 240V.

Putting 240V into a panel without an interlock of some sort between
the legs is _usually_ a code violation. Heck, an anal inspector
might even insist on upgrading to circuit breakers.

If you want to do this and stay code-legal, best to consult
with a local inspector or an electrician. Regardless of whether
you want to keep this code-legal, the fact that you're asking
this question at all, suggests you should engage the aid of
an electrician.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

Fuse boxes are now obsolete and some insurance companies are requiring
their replacement. Plus new service gets you up to date grounding.
Rather than spend money that might be wasted a better investment may
be a service upgrade.

A real positive at home resale time too!

"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...


If you want to do this and stay code-legal, best to consult
with a local inspector or an electrician. Regardless of whether
you want to keep this code-legal, the fact that you're asking
this question at all, suggests you should engage the aid of
an electrician.


That's not always the case. Sometimes one just needs a reference to make
sure one is SURE to be doing it RIGHT.

Asking a question isn't the same as "don't have a clue". LOL

wrote in message
ups.com...
Fuse boxes are now obsolete and some insurance companies are requiring
their replacement. Plus new service gets you up to date grounding.
Rather than spend money that might be wasted a better investment may
be a service upgrade.

A real positive at home resale time too!


I confess I stated it poorly. I know I'm going to get chastized for it, too
LOL

I have been in the habit of calling all "breaker boxes" "fuse boxes". It's
just a habit I got into from growing up in a house with a FUSE box. Fact
is, I have a breaker box in this house, less than 20 years old.

I already have numerous 120v circuits and a couple 240v for the heat
exchanger and the stove. I have enough space for the addition of 2 more
double-breakers in this box. I just want to make sure I wire them up
properly.

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
news

If you ask a specific question, you'll get plenty of quality answers right
here


At this point I'd really just like to see a diagram of how a 220v is wired
into a breaker box. I understand it conceptually but I want to understand
thoroughly so I don't have any problems.

I may have more specific questions once I see the diagram :-)

According to StarMan :

"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...


If you want to do this and stay code-legal, best to consult
with a local inspector or an electrician. Regardless of whether
you want to keep this code-legal, the fact that you're asking
this question at all, suggests you should engage the aid of
an electrician.


That's not always the case. Sometimes one just needs a reference to make
sure one is SURE to be doing it RIGHT.

Asking a question isn't the same as "don't have a clue". LOL

Agreed, that's not always the case. I often ask here about things I
understand, and just want to find out a preferred method or specific
suggestions about something a bit unusual.

For example, I'm replumbing our bathroom - moving all the fixtures
and adding one, and the system has some restrictions. I have a good
book on plumbing, and have done lots of smaller plumbing jobs before.
But there's a few places where I might ask for a hint/suggestion
on situations that don't quite line up with the book.

Eg: in one situation regarding venting. Strict code compliance/
inspector might require upsizing (or adding) a vent from the basement
to the roof of a 2 story house. I'm only one foot (horizontal
drain length) and one vent "fixture unit" (FU ;-) short of not
needing additional venting at all by the code table.

Part of the drain is larger than the code table, and hence the
table is being too pessimistic. The fixture is much lower flow
than normal, so I'm not really one FU short either. There's
already considerable margin in the code requirements.

Installing a vent would severely impact the size of the whole
project (it already includes re-drywalling half of the bathroom,
installing a pocket door in a new wall, and installing a shower
stall.) and I don't think it's necessary.

Will it work? Dunno yet. I think so. But I've not asked the question
in enough detail yet.

However, asking a question in such way that indicates that the person
doesn't understand that aspect of wiring at _all_ does imply that
perhaps they should stay away from it. Or, get a good book on the
subject and read/understand it first.

I'm pretty judicious as to when to make those suggestions.
This seemed a good candidate.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to :
On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 02:34:42 -0500, "StarMan"
wrote:

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
news

If you ask a specific question, you'll get plenty of quality answers right
here

At this point I'd really just like to see a diagram of how a 220v is wired
into a breaker box. I understand it conceptually but I want to understand
thoroughly so I don't have any problems.

I may have more specific questions once I see the diagram :-)

As a general rule, every other slot is on opposite phases so when you
plug in a 2 pole breakers you get 240v. Just don't confuse a 2 pole
breaker with a piggy back breaker that only takes one full slot and
gives 2 120v circuits.

There are a few panels out there (old GEs for example) that have a
strange bus wiring but these are fairly rare..

Right - some FPE panels too. Aside from those oddballs, a double
breaker will work no matter which pair of slots you jam it in.

If in doubt, install the breaker, and use a voltage tester
across the terminal screws on each breaker. If it's zero volts, it's
the kind of panel where it does matter, and you have the breaker
installed wrong. If you see 240V, either it doesn't matter, it
does, and you were lucky the first time.

He's asking for more than that. He also has to identify whether it's
a pure 240 circuit or a 240/120V circuit.

If it's a pure 240V circuit, he'll be using /2 wire (two insulated
conductors and a ground, often black, white and bare, tho, red black
and bare is available and somewhat preferrable). Each of the
insulated conductors goes to one half of the double breaker, and the
bare (ground) connects to the ground bar.

If it's a 240V/120V circuit (stove, dryer, split duplex receptacle
string), he'll be using /3 wire. Red to one breaker. Black to the
other. White to the neutral bar, and bare to the ground bar.

Leave extra slack in the wires. Use the clamps properly (you
will probably have to use a new clamp in a new hold - doubling
up is somewhat frowned upon)

Caution: I briefly tried googling for a simple diagram, but the only one
I found, on a self-proclaimed "do it yourself" site, had it wrong.
[Weren't properly segregating the ground/neutral wires.]

Sheesh.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

replying to RBM, Bud Wilder wrote:
I am installing a new electric hot water heater in a home that was built in
1936. The fuse box is the old conventional type, not circuit breakers. Please
direct me as to how to connect the wire running from the 220 v plug directly
to the existing fuse box.

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...ks-265056-.htm

On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 03:14:01 +0000, Bud Wilder
m wrote:

replying to RBM, Bud Wilder wrote:
I am installing a new electric hot water heater in a home that was built in
1936. The fuse box is the old conventional type, not circuit breakers. Please
direct me as to how to connect the wire running from the 220 v plug directly
to the existing fuse box.

Probably can't be done. Is there a 30a pull out that is not being
used?
Other than that there is no legal way without doing something with
that box.

In writes:

On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 03:14:01 +0000, Bud Wilder
om wrote:

replying to RBM, Bud Wilder wrote:
I am installing a new electric hot water heater in a home that was built in
1936. The fuse box is the old conventional type, not circuit breakers. Please
direct me as to how to connect the wire running from the 220 v plug directly
to the existing fuse box.

Probably can't be done. Is there a 30a pull out that is not being
used?
Other than that there is no legal way without doing something with
that box.

FIrst, if you're asking the question in this manner, chances
are you really should NOT be even thinking of dealing with
wiring into a fuse box.

That being said, if you're more familiar with electricity
than your simplistic post suggested, there is a _possible_
alternative you might be able to use.

Now... IF... you're talking about the US (or Canada) where
the standard voltage is 120, and to get 240 (you said 220,
but that's a common issue), you have to do some modestly
but common (in _newer_ homes) trick stuff, there's another
option, maybe, for you.

How much hot water do you actually use, and how quickly
do you need more?

The reason: The 240V water heater will warm up the
water sitting in the tank (how large is it?) and keep
it hot until used. Then... it will take the new,
incoming, and cold water... and heat it up.

This "recovery rate" is based on the wattage (plus
the incoming temperature, etc).

Now... you (if you really know what you're doing)
can rewire that 240V water heater so that it runs
off "only" one of the 120V legs.

This will significantly reduce the recovery rate,
that is, it will take a _lot_ longer to heat
up that big tank of cold water. [a]

However, if you have a large enough tank and
don't pull too much at a time, and don't
need a hefty second chunk too soon, it might
work out.

[a] you'd at first think that reducing the voltage
by half means twice as long for the hot water,
but it's actually four times the duration.

Reducing the voltage by half _also_ reduces the
amperage going through by half, so the actual
wattage (voltage times amps) is cut by 3/4 [b]

[b] there are some modest additional variables
due to the temperature swings, but they're lost
in the noise.


--
__________________________________________________ ___
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key

[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 04:44:18 +0000 (UTC), danny burstein
wrote:

In writes:

On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 03:14:01 +0000, Bud Wilder
caedfaa9ed1216d60ef78a6f660f5f85_14498@example. com wrote:

replying to RBM, Bud Wilder wrote:
I am installing a new electric hot water heater in a home that was built in
1936. The fuse box is the old conventional type, not circuit breakers. Please
direct me as to how to connect the wire running from the 220 v plug directly
to the existing fuse box.

Probably can't be done. Is there a 30a pull out that is not being
used?
Other than that there is no legal way without doing something with
that box.

FIrst, if you're asking the question in this manner, chances
are you really should NOT be even thinking of dealing with
wiring into a fuse box.

That being said, if you're more familiar with electricity
than your simplistic post suggested, there is a _possible_
alternative you might be able to use.

Now... IF... you're talking about the US (or Canada) where
the standard voltage is 120, and to get 240 (you said 220,
but that's a common issue), you have to do some modestly
but common (in _newer_ homes) trick stuff, there's another
option, maybe, for you.

How much hot water do you actually use, and how quickly
do you need more?

The reason: The 240V water heater will warm up the
water sitting in the tank (how large is it?) and keep
it hot until used. Then... it will take the new,
incoming, and cold water... and heat it up.

This "recovery rate" is based on the wattage (plus
the incoming temperature, etc).

Now... you (if you really know what you're doing)
can rewire that 240V water heater so that it runs
off "only" one of the 120V legs.

This will significantly reduce the recovery rate,
that is, it will take a _lot_ longer to heat
up that big tank of cold water. [a]

However, if you have a large enough tank and
don't pull too much at a time, and don't
need a hefty second chunk too soon, it might
work out.

[a] you'd at first think that reducing the voltage
by half means twice as long for the hot water,
but it's actually four times the duration.

Reducing the voltage by half _also_ reduces the
amperage going through by half, so the actual
wattage (voltage times amps) is cut by 3/4 [b]

[b] there are some modest additional variables
due to the temperature swings, but they're lost
in the noise.



Lighten up Danny I answered the question.
The OP is talking about how you add a 30 amp circuit
I am assuming he has an old split bus panel with one to 4 pullouts
(the big black thing with a handle).

If he has that, there is a very good chance he doesn't have a circuit
that can take another kilowatt from a rewired 4300w water heater
anyway.

Even if he does have a somewhat modern "Woodstock era" fuse panel with
a main breaker (and SqD made a 200a one), he still needs a spare
pullout. Them's is just facts.

My bet is he gets a service upgrade or the water he is heating may be
coming from fire hoses.

On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 03:14:01 +0000, Bud Wilder
m wrote:

replying to RBM, Bud Wilder wrote:
I am installing a new electric hot water heater in a home that was built in
1936. The fuse box is the old conventional type, not circuit breakers. Please
direct me as to how to connect the wire running from the 220 v plug directly
to the existing fuse box.
How many fuses in the box? What amperage main? Many of that agec
cannot support a water heater (65 amp main was BIG in 1936.)

On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 17:20:10 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 04:44:18 +0000 (UTC), danny burstein
wrote:

In writes:

On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 03:14:01 +0000, Bud Wilder
caedfaa9ed1216d60ef78a6f660f5f85_14498@example .com wrote:

replying to RBM, Bud Wilder wrote:
I am installing a new electric hot water heater in a home that was built in
1936. The fuse box is the old conventional type, not circuit breakers. Please
direct me as to how to connect the wire running from the 220 v plug directly
to the existing fuse box.

Probably can't be done. Is there a 30a pull out that is not being
used?
Other than that there is no legal way without doing something with
that box.

FIrst, if you're asking the question in this manner, chances
are you really should NOT be even thinking of dealing with
wiring into a fuse box.

That being said, if you're more familiar with electricity
than your simplistic post suggested, there is a _possible_
alternative you might be able to use.

Now... IF... you're talking about the US (or Canada) where
the standard voltage is 120, and to get 240 (you said 220,
but that's a common issue), you have to do some modestly
but common (in _newer_ homes) trick stuff, there's another
option, maybe, for you.

How much hot water do you actually use, and how quickly
do you need more?

The reason: The 240V water heater will warm up the
water sitting in the tank (how large is it?) and keep
it hot until used. Then... it will take the new,
incoming, and cold water... and heat it up.

This "recovery rate" is based on the wattage (plus
the incoming temperature, etc).

Now... you (if you really know what you're doing)
can rewire that 240V water heater so that it runs
off "only" one of the 120V legs.

This will significantly reduce the recovery rate,
that is, it will take a _lot_ longer to heat
up that big tank of cold water. [a]

However, if you have a large enough tank and
don't pull too much at a time, and don't
need a hefty second chunk too soon, it might
work out.

[a] you'd at first think that reducing the voltage
by half means twice as long for the hot water,
but it's actually four times the duration.

Reducing the voltage by half _also_ reduces the
amperage going through by half, so the actual
wattage (voltage times amps) is cut by 3/4 [b]

[b] there are some modest additional variables
due to the temperature swings, but they're lost
in the noise.



Lighten up Danny I answered the question.
The OP is talking about how you add a 30 amp circuit
I am assuming he has an old split bus panel with one to 4 pullouts
(the big black thing with a handle).

If he has that, there is a very good chance he doesn't have a circuit
that can take another kilowatt from a rewired 4300w water heater
anyway.

Even if he does have a somewhat modern "Woodstock era" fuse panel with
a main breaker (and SqD made a 200a one), he still needs a spare
pullout. Them's is just facts.

My bet is he gets a service upgrade or the water he is heating may be
coming from fire hoses.
Correct.
The addition of an electric water heater, range, drier,or air
conditioner is the "tipping point" for MANY service panel
replacements.

1936 homes were not wired for today's conveniences - even IF our
lighting consumes only about 70% of what it used to for the same
amount of light - and our Radios (and TVs) consume much less power. I
remeber a lot of houses that only had 2 fuses - - - and many more
that only had 6, with one "pull-out" for 240 volts. My 1974 house had
2 pull-outs for cartridge fuses (stove and drier) but ganged pullouts
were available for plug fuses as well. Still only about 8 circuits
though - - -

On Sunday, September 15, 2019 at 5:20:22 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 04:44:18 +0000 (UTC), danny burstein
wrote:

In writes:

On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 03:14:01 +0000, Bud Wilder
caedfaa9ed1216d60ef78a6f660f5f85_14498@example. com wrote:

replying to RBM, Bud Wilder wrote:
I am installing a new electric hot water heater in a home that was built in
1936. The fuse box is the old conventional type, not circuit breakers. Please
direct me as to how to connect the wire running from the 220 v plug directly
to the existing fuse box.

Probably can't be done. Is there a 30a pull out that is not being
used?
Other than that there is no legal way without doing something with
that box.

FIrst, if you're asking the question in this manner, chances
are you really should NOT be even thinking of dealing with
wiring into a fuse box.

That being said, if you're more familiar with electricity
than your simplistic post suggested, there is a _possible_
alternative you might be able to use.

Now... IF... you're talking about the US (or Canada) where
the standard voltage is 120, and to get 240 (you said 220,
but that's a common issue), you have to do some modestly
but common (in _newer_ homes) trick stuff, there's another
option, maybe, for you.

How much hot water do you actually use, and how quickly
do you need more?

The reason: The 240V water heater will warm up the
water sitting in the tank (how large is it?) and keep
it hot until used. Then... it will take the new,
incoming, and cold water... and heat it up.

This "recovery rate" is based on the wattage (plus
the incoming temperature, etc).

Now... you (if you really know what you're doing)
can rewire that 240V water heater so that it runs
off "only" one of the 120V legs.

This will significantly reduce the recovery rate,
that is, it will take a _lot_ longer to heat
up that big tank of cold water. [a]

However, if you have a large enough tank and
don't pull too much at a time, and don't
need a hefty second chunk too soon, it might
work out.

[a] you'd at first think that reducing the voltage
by half means twice as long for the hot water,
but it's actually four times the duration.

Reducing the voltage by half _also_ reduces the
amperage going through by half, so the actual
wattage (voltage times amps) is cut by 3/4 [b]

[b] there are some modest additional variables
due to the temperature swings, but they're lost
in the noise.



Lighten up Danny I answered the question.
The OP is talking about how you add a 30 amp circuit
I am assuming he has an old split bus panel with one to 4 pullouts
(the big black thing with a handle).

If he has that, there is a very good chance he doesn't have a circuit
that can take another kilowatt from a rewired 4300w water heater
anyway.

Even if he does have a somewhat modern "Woodstock era" fuse panel with
a main breaker (and SqD made a 200a one), he still needs a spare
pullout. Them's is just facts.

My bet is he gets a service upgrade or the water he is heating may be
coming from fire hoses.


A related question would be what was heating the water before
and why not stick with whatever was fueling that?