I want to add two 220V and some 110V outlets to my garage. The wall
where I want to add them is far from my breaker panel (at least 70
feet) but is close to my meter. There is even a box with a removable
panel on the inside wall right behind the main service box that
provides access, from the inside the garage, to the house's main 400A
breaker in tne meter box.

I would like to install a breaker box with two 30A 220V and two 20A
110V circuits and connect right to the main service box (after the main
400A breaker of course). This would save me from running a long run
from the distribution breaker panel, where I don't have enough room
anyway.

I have done a fair amount of home wiring and am pretty handy with this,
but I have never worked on mains side of a distrubution or breaker
panel. I don't want to mess this up, so I have some questions. When I
look at the main 400A breaker and the buss bars coming from the meter,
I don't see a neutral line.

There are two large hot wires that pass through a 400A ganged breaker
in the main box, and a green ground that looks like it only goes to
earth. My questions:

1) Is it OK to connect my new panel right to the 400A breaker in the
main box?

2) How would I wire the 110V circuits? I know that each hot end of the
220V feed (through an appropriate breaker in my sub panel) will be a
110V hot, but where are the 110V neutrals? Do I simply run two wires
back to the green in the main service box and call one "neutral" and
the other "earth"?

3) Is it typically OK code-wise to split up the output from the main
breaker right in the service box? I doubt they make wire nuts that big
and I don't think it's OK to "double up" wires on a breaker, so if it
is OK, how is done? Do they sell monster terminal strips?

To diffuse all the safety related replies I'm likely to get, let me say
that I'm incredibly careful around wiring. If this seems too much for
me, I will certainly hire an electrician. But if the answers are not
too intimidating, I'd rather do it myself - not to save money, but
because 1) I have found that I am more careful and do better work than
the trades people I've been able to hire, and 2) Where I live, you
can't get people to show up for small jobs. It will take a least a
month to get this done by an electrician and I'd like to start welding
now.

http://www.selfhelpandmore.com/homew...rage/index.htm

In order to do this safely, you need to cut the seal and pull the meter. In
my area, you need a licensed electrician to do that.

"lens" wrote in message
oups.com...
I want to add two 220V and some 110V outlets to my garage. The wall
where I want to add them is far from my breaker panel (at least 70
feet) but is close to my meter. There is even a box with a removable
panel on the inside wall right behind the main service box that
provides access, from the inside the garage, to the house's main 400A
breaker in tne meter box.

I would like to install a breaker box with two 30A 220V and two 20A
110V circuits and connect right to the main service box (after the main
400A breaker of course). This would save me from running a long run
from the distribution breaker panel, where I don't have enough room
anyway.

I have done a fair amount of home wiring and am pretty handy with this,
but I have never worked on mains side of a distrubution or breaker
panel. I don't want to mess this up, so I have some questions. When I
look at the main 400A breaker and the buss bars coming from the meter,
I don't see a neutral line.

There are two large hot wires that pass through a 400A ganged breaker
in the main box, and a green ground that looks like it only goes to
earth. My questions:

1) Is it OK to connect my new panel right to the 400A breaker in the
main box?

2) How would I wire the 110V circuits? I know that each hot end of the
220V feed (through an appropriate breaker in my sub panel) will be a
110V hot, but where are the 110V neutrals? Do I simply run two wires
back to the green in the main service box and call one "neutral" and
the other "earth"?

3) Is it typically OK code-wise to split up the output from the main
breaker right in the service box? I doubt they make wire nuts that big
and I don't think it's OK to "double up" wires on a breaker, so if it
is OK, how is done? Do they sell monster terminal strips?

To diffuse all the safety related replies I'm likely to get, let me say
that I'm incredibly careful around wiring. If this seems too much for
me, I will certainly hire an electrician. But if the answers are not
too intimidating, I'd rather do it myself - not to save money, but
because 1) I have found that I am more careful and do better work than
the trades people I've been able to hire, and 2) Where I live, you
can't get people to show up for small jobs. It will take a least a
month to get this done by an electrician and I'd like to start welding
now.

In northern calif, my MAIN has the meter on the left side of the box, and
then a distribution panel arrangement on the right side. I can install all
the breakers I need in the right side of the box without disturbing the
left. It is ideal to connect to the main entry point with your sub-panel
feed if you can do it.

(By the way, when the house was re-wired 4 years ago, the electrician simply
clipped seal on the meter, changed the entire box/panel all out, and then
put the broken seal back in place like it was never touched. Never called
PG&E at all. PG&E simply 'sealed' it again next time they noticed it was
opened. Perhaps because it was obviously a new contruction/major remodel?
Hummm.....)


"lens" wrote in message
oups.com...
I want to add two 220V and some 110V outlets to my garage. The wall
where I want to add them is far from my breaker panel (at least 70
feet) but is close to my meter. There is even a box with a removable
panel on the inside wall right behind the main service box that
provides access, from the inside the garage, to the house's main 400A
breaker in tne meter box.

I would like to install a breaker box with two 30A 220V and two 20A
110V circuits and connect right to the main service box (after the main
400A breaker of course). This would save me from running a long run
from the distribution breaker panel, where I don't have enough room
anyway.

I have done a fair amount of home wiring and am pretty handy with this,
but I have never worked on mains side of a distrubution or breaker
panel. I don't want to mess this up, so I have some questions. When I
look at the main 400A breaker and the buss bars coming from the meter,
I don't see a neutral line.

There are two large hot wires that pass through a 400A ganged breaker
in the main box, and a green ground that looks like it only goes to
earth. My questions:

1) Is it OK to connect my new panel right to the 400A breaker in the
main box?

2) How would I wire the 110V circuits? I know that each hot end of the
220V feed (through an appropriate breaker in my sub panel) will be a
110V hot, but where are the 110V neutrals? Do I simply run two wires
back to the green in the main service box and call one "neutral" and
the other "earth"?

3) Is it typically OK code-wise to split up the output from the main
breaker right in the service box? I doubt they make wire nuts that big
and I don't think it's OK to "double up" wires on a breaker, so if it
is OK, how is done? Do they sell monster terminal strips?

To diffuse all the safety related replies I'm likely to get, let me say
that I'm incredibly careful around wiring. If this seems too much for
me, I will certainly hire an electrician. But if the answers are not
too intimidating, I'd rather do it myself - not to save money, but
because 1) I have found that I am more careful and do better work than
the trades people I've been able to hire, and 2) Where I live, you
can't get people to show up for small jobs. It will take a least a
month to get this done by an electrician and I'd like to start welding
now.

"lens" wrote in message
oups.com...
I want to add two 220V and some 110V outlets to my garage. The wall
where I want to add them is far from my breaker panel (at least 70
feet) but is close to my meter. There is even a box with a removable
panel on the inside wall right behind the main service box that
provides access, from the inside the garage, to the house's main 400A
breaker in tne meter box.

I would like to install a breaker box with two 30A 220V and two 20A
110V circuits and connect right to the main service box (after the main
400A breaker of course). This would save me from running a long run
from the distribution breaker panel, where I don't have enough room
anyway.

I have done a fair amount of home wiring and am pretty handy with this,
but I have never worked on mains side of a distrubution or breaker
panel. I don't want to mess this up, so I have some questions. When I
look at the main 400A breaker and the buss bars coming from the meter,
I don't see a neutral line.

There are two large hot wires that pass through a 400A ganged breaker
in the main box, and a green ground that looks like it only goes to
earth. My questions:

1) Is it OK to connect my new panel right to the 400A breaker in the
main box?

2) How would I wire the 110V circuits? I know that each hot end of the
220V feed (through an appropriate breaker in my sub panel) will be a
110V hot, but where are the 110V neutrals? Do I simply run two wires
back to the green in the main service box and call one "neutral" and
the other "earth"?

3) Is it typically OK code-wise to split up the output from the main
breaker right in the service box? I doubt they make wire nuts that big
and I don't think it's OK to "double up" wires on a breaker, so if it
is OK, how is done? Do they sell monster terminal strips?

To diffuse all the safety related replies I'm likely to get, let me say
that I'm incredibly careful around wiring. If this seems too much for
me, I will certainly hire an electrician. But if the answers are not
too intimidating, I'd rather do it myself - not to save money, but
because 1) I have found that I am more careful and do better work than
the trades people I've been able to hire, and 2) Where I live, you
can't get people to show up for small jobs. It will take a least a
month to get this done by an electrician and I'd like to start welding
now.


Without seeing your current service installation it is impossible to give
you specific answers. Generally speaking it may be possible to tap off of
the line side of the 400a breaker with a smaller feed that goes directly to
another main breaker sized to the tap. The lugs on the 400a breaker would
need to be rated for multiple conductors or you may be able to change the
lugs. You can contact the breaker manufacturer or a distributor for that
info or it might be on a label somewhere. That second main breaker would
need to be located near the 400a main. The second main can now feed a
subpanel wherever you want.

I am not sure what is going on with your neutral conductor, but you would
need to bring that and a grounding conductor of appropriate sizes to the
second smaller main breaker and continue them on to your subpanel. It is
unlikely that your existing neutral conductor is separated from the hot
wires.

Since you have a 400 amp service there should be some current transformers
somewhere. If you have been looking in the CT box, then it is quite
possible that there is no neutral in there and I don't think that it is
possible to make splices in there.

This is not the kind of installation that I would suggest that could be done
by a homeowner. To do it right you may need to disconnect your service and
redo several components. A trough may need to be installed to split the
feed into two main breakers. You can try contacting your power company and
have a rep come out and give you his input.

Is it possible to put in some thin or twin circuit breakers in your existing
main panel to give you the space that you need for a two pole circuit
breaker to feed a subpanel in the garage? Read the cover or label inside of
the panel for information on how many thin circuit breakers are allowed.


John Grabowski
http://www.mrelectrician.tv

Thanks for the repies. I too am in Nor Cal and can get to the wiring I
need without pulling the meter. But there is no room in the main panel
for more than the main breaker. This is going to sound dumb, but I am
not sure about having 400A service. What I see in the box are two 200A
breakers (or a big ganged breaker). There are a total of 4 fat wires
coming out of separate screw lugs on these breakers. The wires are
connected TOGETHER in pairs after the breaker. Each pair then connects
to a fat wire that goes on 70 feet to my breaker panel. The paralling
of wires after the main breaker made me think that I had two 200A
breakers in parallel for 400A, but maybe I am misinterpreting what I
see. The house was rewired around 1988 and is about 3400 sq ft. Would
400A be unusual?

It may be easier to make the 70 foot run and power a subpanel from the
the breaker panel back in house. It turns out I do have room in the
panel. It was full of breakers, but at least 3 are unused. This leads
to another question. I'd like to use the 2.5" conduit that holds the
main feed from the entrance, to carry a 100A line that I run back to a
garage sub-panel, but I am told that this is not allowed (i.e. that
conduit can carry ONLY the entrance lines). Does that seem correct? If
so then I have to run another conduit, which will be a pain. or......

The guy who told me that the 2.5" conduit could only hold the main feed
suggested I put a another big subpanel in the garage and run the main
feed straight to that. This would take about 2 feet of new wire. This
new panel (with a new 200A or 400A breaker) then feeds the rest of the
house on the old main feed wires (I can pull these over to the new
sub-panel) and also houses breakers for my new garage outlets. Does
this sound reasonable?

lens wrote:
Thanks for the repies. I too am in Nor Cal and can get to the wiring I
need without pulling the meter. But there is no room in the main panel
for more than the main breaker. This is going to sound dumb, but I am
not sure about having 400A service. What I see in the box are two 200A
breakers (or a big ganged breaker). There are a total of 4 fat wires
coming out of separate screw lugs on these breakers. The wires are
connected TOGETHER in pairs after the breaker. Each pair then connects
to a fat wire that goes on 70 feet to my breaker panel. The paralling
of wires after the main breaker made me think that I had two 200A
breakers in parallel for 400A, but maybe I am misinterpreting what I
see. The house was rewired around 1988 and is about 3400 sq ft. Would
400A be unusual?

It may be easier to make the 70 foot run and power a subpanel from the
the breaker panel back in house. It turns out I do have room in the
panel. It was full of breakers, but at least 3 are unused. This leads
to another question. I'd like to use the 2.5" conduit that holds the
main feed from the entrance, to carry a 100A line that I run back to a
garage sub-panel, but I am told that this is not allowed (i.e. that
conduit can carry ONLY the entrance lines). Does that seem correct? If
so then I have to run another conduit, which will be a pain. or......

The guy who told me that the 2.5" conduit could only hold the main feed
suggested I put a another big subpanel in the garage and run the main
feed straight to that. This would take about 2 feet of new wire. This
new panel (with a new 200A or 400A breaker) then feeds the rest of the
house on the old main feed wires (I can pull these over to the new
sub-panel) and also houses breakers for my new garage outlets. Does
this sound reasonable?


I presume that it is an attached garage so installing a feed through
panel of appropriate size is one way to deal with your problem. Your
informant is incorrect about the conduit being limited to just the
feeder conductors. If they were service conductors he would be correct
but service conductors are never allowed to run very far into a
building. Since the feeder to your houses panel has Over Current
Protection in the form of the main breaker in the meter mains assembly
on the outside of your garage you can use that conduit for branch
circuits as long as you do not exceed the permitted wire fill for that
conduit.

Can you tell me the size of the wires in that feeder and the type of
conduit that was installed for the 2&1/2 inch raceway to your main
panel. The size and type of wire is printed on the insulation every two
feet for it's entire length. If your main breaker is labeled 200
amperes then that is all it will carry. Some listed breaker assemblies
are actually two common trip, double pole, 100 ampere, circuit breakers
assembled in parallel using a handle tie. If the breaker handles are
not labeled 400 amps then you do not have a four hundred ampere service.

You could use a smaller panel in your garage and simply tap it's supply
off of the existing feeder conductors. You would have to install a new
conduit run from the back of the meter mains assembly were your main
breaker is located to the new panel. Presuming that the service is in
fact 200 amperes, a one hundred ampere panel could be located up to
twenty five wire feet away from the tap point to its main breaker as
long as the conductors are in conduit. A sixty ampere or smaller panel
would have to be within ten wire feet of the tap point under the same
conditions. You would need experienced help to install the taps
themselves as it would involve the installation of split bolts or patent
taps to the existing conductors inside the wiring compartment of the
meter mains assembly in order to connect the tap conductors to the
existing feeder conductors. There are Insulating Displacing Taps (IDTs)
that you can install without knowing how to strip the insulation off of
the feeder conductors without damaging them but those IDTs are
expensive. Alternatively you could consult the manufacturer of the
meter mains assembly and install multi barreled terminal lugs on the
load side of your main breaker. This would permit the connection of two
sets of conductors to the main breakers output. The limitation on the
length of the tap conductors would still apply unless you sized them to
carry the ampacity of the main breaker. You would have to check the
size of the terminal lugs in your new panel to be sure it could take
wire that large and the use of that size of wire would be more expensive
and wasteful of valuable metals.

One word of caution. If your existing feeder is 2/0 Cu or 4/0 Al for a
two hundred ampere feeder then a particularly picky inspector could
require you to replace it with the next larger size if you install a
second feeder to a new panel. Those sizes are only permitted for 200
amps when they are THE main feeder to a dwelling unit. Once you install
a second feeder to serve the same dwelling neither one is THE main
feeder and both would have to be sized by the ampacity table for regular
conductors rather than from the table for single phase three wire
dwelling services.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use" Thomas Alva Edison

Tom - Thanks so much for the detailed reply. If I haven't worn you out,
here are more details and pictures.

"Can you tell me the size of the wires in that feeder and the type
of conduit that was installed for the 2&1/2 inch raceway to your main
panel."

The wires say THHN 4/0 AWG and measure 0.61" diameter with the
insulation. They are copper. I had the old aluminum upgraded about 3
years ago. All I can read off the conduit is "AHF 42040635". Does this
help? Even if I could only run 50A or 60A sub

back through that conduit, I would settle for that, since it is simpler
than what's discussed below.

"Some listed breaker assemblies are actually two common trip,
double pole, 100 ampere, circuit breakers assembled in parallel using a
handle tie. If the breaker handles are not labeled 400 amps then you
do not have a four hundred ampere service."

I took a picture of the main breaker:
http://home.pacbell.net/shermfam/mai...r_close-up.jpg

The breaker has four sections and reads 200A twice. The red and black
pairs on the load side are paralleled, so I assumed 400A, but I think I
may be wrong. The fine print on the breaker label also shows it's
outputs paralleled. Do I have 200A service?

"Presuming that the service is in fact 200 amperes, a one hundred
ampere panel could be located up to twenty five wire feet away from the
tap point to its main breaker as long as the conductors are in
conduit."

My subpanel would be less than 4 feet away on the other side of the
wall. The open box (open for pic only) in this pic is just opposite the
main breaker. The main feed to the house comes straight thru the wall
into this box and then goes out the top.
http://home.pacbell.net/shermfam/inside_gar_crop.jpg

"Alternatively you could consult the manufacturer of the meter
mains assembly and install multi barreled terminal lugs on the load
side of your main breaker."

Something like this was already done: The 4 wires leaving the main
breaker in the photo are paralleled down to two with lugs that look
like what you describe. I may not have another space availalble in them
however. I can't tell because they are wrapped with tape.

New questions:
If I tapped the main feed for a new panel, you are saying I could not
run this feed through the same hole where the main feed comes through
to the house? It is an 8 inch long conduit through the wall into the
big box in the inside_gar_crop picture. I could poke my tap through the
same hole and mount the sub-panel to the right of that box. The total
run would be less than 4 feet so I don't care about wastefully
oversized wire. Would I still have to poke a new hole in the wall and
run a new pipe? Or could I connect IDTs to main feed wires, but do it
in the box on the INSIDE of the house (shown in inside_gar_crop)?