Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1   Report Post  
mongke
 
Posts: n/a
Default 110v vs. 220v for welder

Hi all

Finally I got hold of an arc welder. It has of course wiring for both 110v
and 220v. Now there is some advantage to use one or the other? I can get
up to 50 amps for 110v. I have also 208v 3 wire 3 phase. Can one get
(almost) 220v from there? I assume not as it would be two phases and not
one phase + neutral.

Any advice thanked in advance.

--

Regards,


Mongke

  #2   Report Post  
Robert Swinney
 
Posts: n/a
Default 110v vs. 220v for welder

An advantage of 220 is that you can use lighter gauge wire to feed the
outlet your welder is plugged into. This is hardly worth changing if the
110v circuit is of sufficient wireing size. Consult the welder's owner's
manual. It should give some information re. sizing of branch circuit.
Bob Swinney
"mongke" wrote in message
...
Hi all

Finally I got hold of an arc welder. It has of course wiring for both

110v
and 220v. Now there is some advantage to use one or the other? I can get
up to 50 amps for 110v. I have also 208v 3 wire 3 phase. Can one get
(almost) 220v from there? I assume not as it would be two phases and not
one phase + neutral.

Any advice thanked in advance.

--

Regards,


Mongke



  #3   Report Post  
Ecnerwal
 
Posts: n/a
Default 110v vs. 220v for welder

In article ,
"mongke" wrote:

Finally I got hold of an arc welder. It has of course wiring for both 110v
and 220v. Now there is some advantage to use one or the other? I can get
up to 50 amps for 110v. I have also 208v 3 wire 3 phase. Can one get
(almost) 220v from there? I assume not as it would be two phases and not
one phase + neutral.


208 is not 220. So use the 110 hookup. Connecting 208 to 220 equipment
is usually a recipe for unpleasantness, up to and including magic smoke
release. If you keep an eye out, you might well find a good deal of (and
on) 208V 3 phase equipment, which is designed for that voltage and hard
to sell on the used/hobby market since many home/hobby shops (and some
commercial shops) do not have access to 3 phase.

If you have a choice of 110 or 220, use the 220.

--
Cats, Coffee, Chocolate...vices to live by
  #4   Report Post  
Old Nick
 
Posts: n/a
Default 110v vs. 220v for welder

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 00:30:45 -0700, Derek vaguely
proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Foolishly, I hooked it up
through a regular wall outlet above my welder, with a sign warning
that it was a 220V supply. A few years ago, my wife was outside and
needed to plug in the baby monitor ...... guess which one she chose!!


There's sumpn about them, no doubt!
************************************************** ***
It's not the milk and honey we hate. It's having it
rammed down our throats.
  #5   Report Post  
PrecisionMachinisT
 
Posts: n/a
Default 110v vs. 220v for welder


"Derek" wrote in message
...


I have a German buzz box hooked up like this in my garage. It's
designed to run at 50 Hertz at 220, but is fed 220 at 60 Hertz. That
extra 10 Hertz sure gets it buzzing! Foolishly, I hooked it up
through a regular wall outlet above my welder, with a sign warning
that it was a 220V supply. A few years ago, my wife was outside and
needed to plug in the baby monitor ...... guess which one she chose!!



Sounds like you could use some shock therapy yourself--and fully deserved
for such a foolish act of using a std plug for 220 v service.

Im stopping just short of calling you an idiot, IOW.

--

SVL




  #6   Report Post  
Derek
 
Posts: n/a
Default 110v vs. 220v for welder

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 21:22:34 -0500, "mongke"
wrote:

Hi all

Finally I got hold of an arc welder. It has of course wiring for both 110v
and 220v. Now there is some advantage to use one or the other? I can get
up to 50 amps for 110v. I have also 208v 3 wire 3 phase. Can one get
(almost) 220v from there? I assume not as it would be two phases and not
one phase + neutral.

Any advice thanked in advance.


The 220 Volts (in houses in N. America) is achieved by hooking up two
110 Volt feeds that are "out of phase". So when the one is plus 110V,
the other is at minus 110V, hence a potential difference of 220V.
However, the second feed is connected to the Neutral side of the plug,
not the live side!!!!

I have a German buzz box hooked up like this in my garage. It's
designed to run at 50 Hertz at 220, but is fed 220 at 60 Hertz. That
extra 10 Hertz sure gets it buzzing! Foolishly, I hooked it up
through a regular wall outlet above my welder, with a sign warning
that it was a 220V supply. A few years ago, my wife was outside and
needed to plug in the baby monitor ...... guess which one she chose!!
  #7   Report Post  
Gunner
 
Posts: n/a
Default 110v vs. 220v for welder

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 03:49:23 GMT, Ecnerwal
wrote:

In article ,
"mongke" wrote:

Finally I got hold of an arc welder. It has of course wiring for both 110v
and 220v. Now there is some advantage to use one or the other? I can get
up to 50 amps for 110v. I have also 208v 3 wire 3 phase. Can one get
(almost) 220v from there? I assume not as it would be two phases and not
one phase + neutral.


208 is not 220. So use the 110 hookup. Connecting 208 to 220 equipment
is usually a recipe for unpleasantness, up to and including magic smoke
release. If you keep an eye out, you might well find a good deal of (and
on) 208V 3 phase equipment, which is designed for that voltage and hard
to sell on the used/hobby market since many home/hobby shops (and some
commercial shops) do not have access to 3 phase.

If you have a choice of 110 or 220, use the 220.


Anyone know how big a rotary converter it would take to run a Lincoln
Idealarc 250, 3phase welder?

Gunner

"There is no difference between communism and socialism, except
in the means of achieving the same ultimate end: communism
proposes to enslave men by force, socialism - by vote. It is
merely the difference between murder and suicide."
- Ayn Rand, from "Foreign Policy Drains U.S. of Main
Weapons"
  #8   Report Post  
Old Nick
 
Posts: n/a
Default 110v vs. 220v for welder

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 00:29:55 -0700, "PrecisionMachinisT"
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

OK. I stand corrected. We cdon;t have the option, so I did not
realise. Makes sense though.

Sounds like you could use some shock therapy yourself--and fully deserved
for such a foolish act of using a std plug for 220 v service.

Im stopping just short of calling you an idiot, IOW.


************************************************** ***
It's not the milk and honey we hate. It's having it
rammed down our throats.
  #9   Report Post  
granpaw
 
Posts: n/a
Default 110v vs. 220v for welder

Derek wrote in
:

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 21:22:34 -0500, "mongke"
wrote:

Hi all

snip

I have a German buzz box hooked up like this in my garage. It's
designed to run at 50 Hertz at 220, but is fed 220 at 60 Hertz. That
extra 10 Hertz sure gets it buzzing! Foolishly, I hooked it up
through a regular wall outlet above my welder, with a sign warning
that it was a 220V supply. A few years ago, my wife was outside and
needed to plug in the baby monitor ...... guess which one she chose!!


Well that's zactly what ya get fer lettin' wemmin in the dam garage!....;0)

On another side to this thread I would add that it is not wise to use a
110V buzz box (or any Voltage for that matter) on a loooong extension cord
of insufficient size to carry the load!
Looked back from a small job out in the yard to see the wall on fire in the
shop. oops.
  #10   Report Post  
Robert Swinney
 
Posts: n/a
Default 110v vs. 220v for welder

Gunner sez: "Anyone know how big a rotary converter it would take to run a
Lincoln
Idealarc 250, 3phase welder?"

Errr, what is the HP of the Lincoln Edealarc 250, 3phase welder? It'd take
a rotary made from an idler motor of at least 1-1/2 x the welder HP. More
would be better, esp. if you weren't too careful with the caps.

Bob Swinney



"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 03:49:23 GMT, Ecnerwal
wrote:

In article ,
"mongke" wrote:

Finally I got hold of an arc welder. It has of course wiring for both

110v
and 220v. Now there is some advantage to use one or the other? I can

get
up to 50 amps for 110v. I have also 208v 3 wire 3 phase. Can one get
(almost) 220v from there? I assume not as it would be two phases and

not
one phase + neutral.


208 is not 220. So use the 110 hookup. Connecting 208 to 220 equipment
is usually a recipe for unpleasantness, up to and including magic smoke
release. If you keep an eye out, you might well find a good deal of (and
on) 208V 3 phase equipment, which is designed for that voltage and hard
to sell on the used/hobby market since many home/hobby shops (and some
commercial shops) do not have access to 3 phase.

If you have a choice of 110 or 220, use the 220.



Gunner

"There is no difference between communism and socialism, except
in the means of achieving the same ultimate end: communism
proposes to enslave men by force, socialism - by vote. It is
merely the difference between murder and suicide."
- Ayn Rand, from "Foreign Policy Drains U.S. of Main
Weapons"





  #11   Report Post  
alderotes
 
Posts: n/a
Default 110v vs. 220v for welder

Derek wrote in message
I have a German buzz box hooked up like this in my garage. It's
designed to run at 50 Hertz at 220, but is fed 220 at 60 Hertz. That
extra 10 Hertz sure gets it buzzing! Foolishly, I hooked it up
through a regular wall outlet above my welder, with a sign warning
that it was a 220V supply. A few years ago, my wife was outside and
needed to plug in the baby monitor ...... guess which one she chose!!


Change the plug today! Why kill the next poor fellow who buys your
house, or your wife, or your kid?
  #12   Report Post  
Don Foreman
 
Posts: n/a
Default 110v vs. 220v for welder


You sure it's 3phase? Lincoln's lit sez it's single-phase.

http://content.lincolnelectric.com/p...ature/e270.pdf



Anyone know how big a rotary converter it would take to run a Lincoln
Idealarc 250, 3phase welder?

Gunner

"There is no difference between communism and socialism, except
in the means of achieving the same ultimate end: communism
proposes to enslave men by force, socialism - by vote. It is
merely the difference between murder and suicide."
- Ayn Rand, from "Foreign Policy Drains U.S. of Main
Weapons"


  #13   Report Post  
Don Foreman
 
Posts: n/a
Default 110v vs. 220v for welder

It's bad practice to be sure, but no need for melodrama here. 220 is
household power in Europe, using plugs in some countries that are no
bigger than our 110 volt plugs -- just different.

You can get 220 volt 15-amp or 20-amp plugs and receptacles that fit
in an ordinary box. They look like an ordinary plug except the
prongs are sideways. It would be a good idea to change to that.

More important: have the wiring feeding that box be compatible with
the breaker protecting it at the source. 12 gage wire, 20 amp
breaker. With 220 the breaker must be a dual breaker. They're not
expensive. If you feed ordinary 12 or 14 gage wire from a stove or
dryer circuit, you risk a fire with overload.


On 11 Aug 2004 10:14:36 -0700, (alderotes) wrote:

Derek wrote in message
I have a German buzz box hooked up like this in my garage. It's
designed to run at 50 Hertz at 220, but is fed 220 at 60 Hertz. That
extra 10 Hertz sure gets it buzzing! Foolishly, I hooked it up
through a regular wall outlet above my welder, with a sign warning
that it was a 220V supply. A few years ago, my wife was outside and
needed to plug in the baby monitor ...... guess which one she chose!!


Change the plug today! Why kill the next poor fellow who buys your
house, or your wife, or your kid?


  #14   Report Post  
Don Foreman
 
Posts: n/a
Default 110v vs. 220v for welder

I forgot to answer the general question of how big an idler for a
3-phase welder. A singlephase Idealarc 250 draws 86 amps max at
230V. That's 19780 VA, or about what a 25 HP 230V singlephase motor
would draw, so I'd think you'd need at least a 50HP idler.



On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 08:38:07 GMT, Gunner
wrote:


Anyone know how big a rotary converter it would take to run a Lincoln
Idealarc 250, 3phase welder?

Gunner

"There is no difference between communism and socialism, except
in the means of achieving the same ultimate end: communism
proposes to enslave men by force, socialism - by vote. It is
merely the difference between murder and suicide."
- Ayn Rand, from "Foreign Policy Drains U.S. of Main
Weapons"


  #15   Report Post  
Gunner
 
Posts: n/a
Default 110v vs. 220v for welder

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 12:54:31 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:


You sure it's 3phase? Lincoln's lit sez it's single-phase.

http://content.lincolnelectric.com/p...ature/e270.pdf


I was making a generic question. I tend to run across 3ph welders more
economicly than single phase ones

Gunner




Anyone know how big a rotary converter it would take to run a Lincoln
Idealarc 250, 3phase welder?

Gunner

"There is no difference between communism and socialism, except
in the means of achieving the same ultimate end: communism
proposes to enslave men by force, socialism - by vote. It is
merely the difference between murder and suicide."
- Ayn Rand, from "Foreign Policy Drains U.S. of Main
Weapons"


"In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by
the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked
out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman
Liebmann


  #16   Report Post  
Gunner
 
Posts: n/a
Default 110v vs. 220v for welder

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 13:17:31 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:

I forgot to answer the general question of how big an idler for a
3-phase welder. A singlephase Idealarc 250 draws 86 amps max at
230V. That's 19780 VA, or about what a 25 HP 230V singlephase motor
would draw, so I'd think you'd need at least a 50HP idler.



I was afraid of that..sigh..

Thanks for the info

Gunner



On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 08:38:07 GMT, Gunner
wrote:


Anyone know how big a rotary converter it would take to run a Lincoln
Idealarc 250, 3phase welder?

Gunner

"There is no difference between communism and socialism, except
in the means of achieving the same ultimate end: communism
proposes to enslave men by force, socialism - by vote. It is
merely the difference between murder and suicide."
- Ayn Rand, from "Foreign Policy Drains U.S. of Main
Weapons"


"In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by
the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked
out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman
Liebmann
  #17   Report Post  
Jerry Martes
 
Posts: n/a
Default 110v vs. 220v for welder


Don

Could a 3 phase welder be made to work on single phase with some tolerable
limitations of the capability of the original (3 phase) performance, without
an idler?

Jerry



"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
I forgot to answer the general question of how big an idler for a
3-phase welder. A singlephase Idealarc 250 draws 86 amps max at
230V. That's 19780 VA, or about what a 25 HP 230V singlephase motor
would draw, so I'd think you'd need at least a 50HP idler.



On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 08:38:07 GMT, Gunner
wrote:


Anyone know how big a rotary converter it would take to run a Lincoln
Idealarc 250, 3phase welder?

Gunner

"There is no difference between communism and socialism, except
in the means of achieving the same ultimate end: communism
proposes to enslave men by force, socialism - by vote. It is
merely the difference between murder and suicide."
- Ayn Rand, from "Foreign Policy Drains U.S. of Main
Weapons"




  #18   Report Post  
Robert Swinney
 
Posts: n/a
Default 110v vs. 220v for welder

Thas', ok, Gunner. Getcherself a 50 HP 230V single-phase idler motor and
we'll try to help you figure out ways to start it. Jim Rozen would say use
a 35 HP pony for the task. Ooops, wait - there may be a problem starting
the 35 HP pony. Maybe you could spin it up with a 10 or 15 HP machine.

I'd say install separate service with 1000 amp breakers and then find about
3500 uFd of start caps; Oh! and maybe around 1500 uFd of run capacitance -
that is if you didn't want it finely balanced, ala the "Fitch method";
that'd take a bit more.

Or consider this: Just wrap a heavy rope around the idler's shaft and pull,
pull pull! If the welder has a 220v outlet receptacle, plug the idler motor
into that. Then when things come up to speed disconnect the AC mains and
you'll have perpetual motion.

Bob Swinney


"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 13:17:31 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:

I forgot to answer the general question of how big an idler for a
3-phase welder. A singlephase Idealarc 250 draws 86 amps max at
230V. That's 19780 VA, or about what a 25 HP 230V singlephase motor
would draw, so I'd think you'd need at least a 50HP idler.



I was afraid of that..sigh..

Thanks for the info

Gunner



On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 08:38:07 GMT, Gunner
wrote:


Anyone know how big a rotary converter it would take to run a Lincoln
Idealarc 250, 3phase welder?

Gunner

"There is no difference between communism and socialism, except
in the means of achieving the same ultimate end: communism
proposes to enslave men by force, socialism - by vote. It is
merely the difference between murder and suicide."
- Ayn Rand, from "Foreign Policy Drains U.S. of Main
Weapons"


"In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by
the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked
out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman
Liebmann



  #20   Report Post  
Bruce L. Bergman
 
Posts: n/a
Default 110v vs. 220v for welder

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 00:30:45 -0700, Derek wrote:

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 21:22:34 -0500, "mongke"
wrote:

Hi all

Finally I got hold of an arc welder. It has of course wiring for both 110v
and 220v. Now there is some advantage to use one or the other? I can get
up to 50 amps for 110v. I have also 208v 3 wire 3 phase. Can one get
(almost) 220v from there? I assume not as it would be two phases and not
one phase + neutral.

Any advice thanked in advance.


The 220 Volts (in houses in N. America) is achieved by hooking up two
110 Volt feeds that are "out of phase". So when the one is plus 110V,
the other is at minus 110V, hence a potential difference of 220V.
However, the second feed is connected to the Neutral side of the plug,
not the live side!!!!

I have a German buzz box hooked up like this in my garage. It's
designed to run at 50 Hertz at 220, but is fed 220 at 60 Hertz. That
extra 10 Hertz sure gets it buzzing! Foolishly, I hooked it up
through a regular wall outlet above my welder, with a sign warning
that it was a 220V supply. A few years ago, my wife was outside and
needed to plug in the baby monitor ...... guess which one she chose!!


/Please/ tell me that after that accident you removed that mis-wired
120V receptacle, ran right out and got a proper 220V receptacle for
the wall (and a matching cord cap for the welder) so someone couldn't
do that again...

People can get killed from dangerous shortcuts like that.

-- Bruce --
--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.


  #21   Report Post  
Gunner
 
Posts: n/a
Default 110v vs. 220v for welder

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 15:25:58 GMT, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:


/Please/ tell me that after that accident you removed that mis-wired
120V receptacle, ran right out and got a proper 220V receptacle for
the wall (and a matching cord cap for the welder) so someone couldn't
do that again...


Bruce..you are aware of the typical window AC 220 outlet with the two
prongs turned 90 degrees from standard 110?m

(- -)

Right?

New neighbors came over a couple years ago wanting to borrow a pair of
pliers so they could bend the prongs on their tv cord to "stick it in
that weird wall socket thingy"

I loaned it to them..and before they made it out the front door it
dawned on me what they were trying to do. Stopped em.

The house later burned down because of an over load on a kitchen
outlet according to the local paper. It was an older house with the
screw in fuses, and they had done the penny under the fuse trick as
the toaster, electric fry pan and the coffee maker used at the same
time always blew the fuse. In the same outlet with a threeway adapter.

Darwin was right.

Gunner

"In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by
the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked
out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman
Liebmann
  #22   Report Post  
Don Murray
 
Posts: n/a
Default 110v vs. 220v for welder

If your breaker and wire are big enough to handle the load, and you
could idle enough machines to equal 25 to 50 HP, I think you could do it.
Don

Gunner wrote:
On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 13:17:31 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:


I forgot to answer the general question of how big an idler for a
3-phase welder. A singlephase Idealarc 250 draws 86 amps max at
230V. That's 19780 VA, or about what a 25 HP 230V singlephase motor
would draw, so I'd think you'd need at least a 50HP idler.




I was afraid of that..sigh..

Thanks for the info

Gunner



On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 08:38:07 GMT, Gunner
wrote:


Anyone know how big a rotary converter it would take to run a Lincoln
Idealarc 250, 3phase welder?

Gunner

"There is no difference between communism and socialism, except
in the means of achieving the same ultimate end: communism
proposes to enslave men by force, socialism - by vote. It is
merely the difference between murder and suicide."
- Ayn Rand, from "Foreign Policy Drains U.S. of Main
Weapons"



"In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by
the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked
out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman
Liebmann


  #23   Report Post  
Derek
 
Posts: n/a
Default 110v vs. 220v for welder

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 15:25:58 GMT, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 00:30:45 -0700, Derek wrote:

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 21:22:34 -0500, "mongke"
wrote:

Hi all

Finally I got hold of an arc welder. It has of course wiring for both 110v
and 220v. Now there is some advantage to use one or the other? I can get
up to 50 amps for 110v. I have also 208v 3 wire 3 phase. Can one get
(almost) 220v from there? I assume not as it would be two phases and not
one phase + neutral.

Any advice thanked in advance.


The 220 Volts (in houses in N. America) is achieved by hooking up two
110 Volt feeds that are "out of phase". So when the one is plus 110V,
the other is at minus 110V, hence a potential difference of 220V.
However, the second feed is connected to the Neutral side of the plug,
not the live side!!!!

I have a German buzz box hooked up like this in my garage. It's
designed to run at 50 Hertz at 220, but is fed 220 at 60 Hertz. That
extra 10 Hertz sure gets it buzzing! Foolishly, I hooked it up
through a regular wall outlet above my welder, with a sign warning
that it was a 220V supply. A few years ago, my wife was outside and
needed to plug in the baby monitor ...... guess which one she chose!!


/Please/ tell me that after that accident you removed that mis-wired
120V receptacle, ran right out and got a proper 220V receptacle for
the wall (and a matching cord cap for the welder) so someone couldn't
do that again...

People can get killed from dangerous shortcuts like that.

-- Bruce --


Yup, see my follow-up post, it was replaced that week.

Thanks.
Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Fwd: Dangerous way of getting 220V from 110V outlets jim rozen Metalworking 43 October 30th 03 12:40 AM
Question about 110v equipment Andrew McKay UK diy 4 July 14th 03 11:32 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:02 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 DIYbanter.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about DIY & home improvement"