OK, I posted about PEX clamping. I made the mistake of stating my
opinion about it, which is not in favor of it. Thus the whole
discussion thread went in that direction and the original point of my
post was lost.

So, I am posting it again, with the intended question.

1. There are two types of PEX Clamping Tools (Crimp Tools) and two
types of crimp bands being sold. One is just a solid metal ring that
somehow (magically) shrinks when the tool is applied. The other looks
more like a common auto hose clamp minus the screw, and requires a
different tool. Which is better?

2. Why cant someone just use a common hose clamp? Hose clamps are a
tad bit more costly for the actual clamp, but the average DIY
homeowner is not going to spend $100 (or even $50) for the tool to do
one job. In the end, hose clamps are cheaper if the cost of the tool
is included. Better yet, hose clamps are easily removed and replaced.
It would seem to me that they would actually be better. I am
surprised they are not just used overall, even by plumbers, with their
only drawback being that stupid homeowners can loosen them and cause
problems. Hose clamps have been used exclusively for underground
plastic black pipe (I cant recall the type of pipe that is) where
people have wells, and they work well.

I'm sure that in time there will be cheap generic crimp tools being
sold that only cost $19.99, but even at that, everyone owns a
screwdriver and with hose clamps being readily available, easy to
install, and much easier to remove than the PEX clamps now being sold,
why not just use hose clamps?

wrote in message
...
OK, I posted about PEX clamping. I made the mistake of stating my
opinion about it, which is not in favor of it. Thus the whole
discussion thread went in that direction and the original point of my
post was lost.

So, I am posting it again, with the intended question.

I'm sure that in time there will be cheap generic crimp tools being
sold that only cost $19.99, but even at that, everyone owns a
screwdriver and with hose clamps being readily available, easy to
install, and much easier to remove than the PEX clamps now being sold,
why not just use hose clamps?

The Pex clamps I used (see links in my other posting) were actually easier
and faster than hose clamps. The point about the tool cost is valid, I paid
about $100 for mine. I know the ratchet style operation will not release
until you get to the correct tension for the clamp, then it will not let you
go further. This calibration makes the use idiotproof, which would be a
boon to many folks working with plumbing (at least Pex).

The one advantage of a pipe clamp might be that you can add one around an
installed conection, with the Pex clamp you need to remember to slide it
onto the tubing before fasterning to the connector. It's surprisingly tough
to pull the Pex off the connector in tight spots.

So if you object to purchasing a tool specially designed for the job, try
pipe clamps. I spent $100 on the tool, it took me 5-6 seconds to do each
clamp connection, and I had zero leaks in maybe 100 connectors throughout
the place. I had to take off some clamps when I plumbed a valve wrong and
also when I retrofitted a water filter. They are extremely easy to remove
with a good set of snips. Just remember to position the crimp to make it
available to get teh snips on. Not all Pex clamps I have seen work the same
way, but these ones were a snap.

IMHO, the tool was worth it for me, maybe not for everybody. The plastic
clamps you described in your other post would give me absolute nightmares.

Cheers
Gary

wrote:
OK, I posted about PEX clamping. I made the mistake of stating my
opinion about it, which is not in favor of it. Thus the whole
discussion thread went in that direction and the original point of my
post was lost.

So, I am posting it again, with the intended question.

1. There are two types of PEX Clamping Tools (Crimp Tools) and two
types of crimp bands being sold. One is just a solid metal ring that
somehow (magically) shrinks when the tool is applied. The other looks
more like a common auto hose clamp minus the screw, and requires a
different tool. Which is better?

2. Why cant someone just use a common hose clamp? Hose clamps are a
tad bit more costly for the actual clamp, but the average DIY
homeowner is not going to spend $100 (or even $50) for the tool to do
one job. In the end, hose clamps are cheaper if the cost of the tool
is included. Better yet, hose clamps are easily removed and replaced.
It would seem to me that they would actually be better. I am
surprised they are not just used overall, even by plumbers, with their
only drawback being that stupid homeowners can loosen them and cause
problems. Hose clamps have been used exclusively for underground
plastic black pipe (I cant recall the type of pipe that is) where
people have wells, and they work well.

I'm sure that in time there will be cheap generic crimp tools being
sold that only cost $19.99, but even at that, everyone owns a
screwdriver and with hose clamps being readily available, easy to
install, and much easier to remove than the PEX clamps now being sold,
why not just use hose clamps?

Because PEX isn't a hose. It is a permanent plumbing system which
frequently is concealed. Crimp connections produce reliable and
repeatable results.

wrote in message
...
OK, I posted about PEX clamping. I made the mistake of stating my
opinion about it, which is not in favor of it. Thus the whole
discussion thread went in that direction and the original point of my
post was lost.

So, I am posting it again, with the intended question.

1. There are two types of PEX Clamping Tools (Crimp Tools) and two
types of crimp bands being sold. One is just a solid metal ring that
somehow (magically) shrinks when the tool is applied. The other looks
more like a common auto hose clamp minus the screw, and requires a
different tool. Which is better?

2. Why cant someone just use a common hose clamp? Hose clamps are a
tad bit more costly for the actual clamp, but the average DIY
homeowner is not going to spend $100 (or even $50) for the tool to do
one job. In the end, hose clamps are cheaper if the cost of the tool
is included. Better yet, hose clamps are easily removed and replaced.
It would seem to me that they would actually be better. I am
surprised they are not just used overall, even by plumbers, with their
only drawback being that stupid homeowners can loosen them and cause
problems. Hose clamps have been used exclusively for underground
plastic black pipe (I cant recall the type of pipe that is) where
people have wells, and they work well.

I'm sure that in time there will be cheap generic crimp tools being
sold that only cost $19.99, but even at that, everyone owns a
screwdriver and with hose clamps being readily available, easy to
install, and much easier to remove than the PEX clamps now being sold,
why not just use hose clamps?
Because you can't get near enough pressure to properly secure the stiff PEX
tubing. One pretty good way to have trouble with something like that is to
not install it properly. The proper clamps and tools are crucial to long
term reliability. A hose clamp will probably work initially.

Don Young

On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 15:52:02 -0500, wrote:

OK, I posted about PEX clamping. I made the mistake of stating my
opinion about it, which is not in favor of it. Thus the whole
discussion thread went in that direction and the original point of my
post was lost.

So, I am posting it again, with the intended question.

1. There are two types of PEX Clamping Tools (Crimp Tools) and two
types of crimp bands being sold. One is just a solid metal ring that
somehow (magically) shrinks when the tool is applied. The other looks
more like a common auto hose clamp minus the screw, and requires a
different tool. Which is better?

2. Why cant someone just use a common hose clamp? Hose clamps are a
tad bit more costly for the actual clamp, but the average DIY
homeowner is not going to spend $100 (or even $50) for the tool to do
one job. In the end, hose clamps are cheaper if the cost of the tool
is included. Better yet, hose clamps are easily removed and replaced.
It would seem to me that they would actually be better. I am
surprised they are not just used overall, even by plumbers, with their
only drawback being that stupid homeowners can loosen them and cause
problems. Hose clamps have been used exclusively for underground
plastic black pipe (I cant recall the type of pipe that is) where
people have wells, and they work well.

I'm sure that in time there will be cheap generic crimp tools being
sold that only cost $19.99, but even at that, everyone owns a
screwdriver and with hose clamps being readily available, easy to
install, and much easier to remove than the PEX clamps now being sold,
why not just use hose clamps?

Crimp hold much better, sorry I can't quantify a value.
Easier to install, faster.
Don't prtrude, so it is possible to pull them through rafters and
openings without catching too much.

Hose clamps do not have the holding strength, they are easy to strip,
and don't last as long. They also take longer to install. I've
replaced many on my vehicles, just because they've failed.

samurai.

On Oct 22, 1:52 pm, wrote:
OK, I posted about PEX clamping. I made the mistake of stating my
opinion about it, which is not in favor of it. Thus the whole
discussion thread went in that direction and the original point of my
post was lost.

So, I am posting it again, with the intended question.

1. There are two types of PEX Clamping Tools (Crimp Tools) and two
types of crimp bands being sold. One is just a solid metal ring that
somehow (magically) shrinks when the tool is applied. The other looks
more like a common auto hose clamp minus the screw, and requires a
different tool. Which is better?

2. Why cant someone just use a common hose clamp? Hose clamps are a
tad bit more costly for the actual clamp, but the average DIY
homeowner is not going to spend $100 (or even $50) for the tool to do
one job. In the end, hose clamps are cheaper if the cost of the tool
is included. Better yet, hose clamps are easily removed and replaced.
It would seem to me that they would actually be better. I am
surprised they are not just used overall, even by plumbers, with their
only drawback being that stupid homeowners can loosen them and cause
problems. Hose clamps have been used exclusively for underground
plastic black pipe (I cant recall the type of pipe that is) where
people have wells, and they work well.

I'm sure that in time there will be cheap generic crimp tools being
sold that only cost $19.99, but even at that, everyone owns a
screwdriver and with hose clamps being readily available, easy to
install, and much easier to remove than the PEX clamps now being sold,
why not just use hose clamps?

OP-

I agree, the questions in your original post got neglected as the
thread drifted "off topic"

Before I made the jump from copper to PEX I had some of the same
questions & concerns that you have.

The tool were really expensive!

I was concerned about using any crimps rings...if the rings corroded
the connection would fail.

I chose to use the expansion system....no crimp rings.

So to answer your Question 1: Which is better? IMO, neither, crimp
rings are not a good choice. I recommend using the expansion tool &
compatible fittings.


Question 2: Why cant someone just use a common hose clamp?

PEX is an engineered complete system its not just the PEX tubing
alone. The PEX mfr supplies the parts. But the system performance
depends on the parts AND the installation. The PEX mfr has
engineered (parts & installation procedure) to perform reliably.

the average DIY homeowner is not going to spend $100

The PEX plumbing system is not a "DIY homeowner" system

So why not use hose clamps?

Installation with screw type hose clamps would give widely varying
clamping force. Crimped connections give reliable and repeatable
results.

hose clamps are easily removed and replaced

PEX system is more or less permanent, not meant to be removed a
routine basis. It can be reworked (just like any permanent plumbing
system) but the clamping system is designed for reliability of
connection not "remove-ablilty".

If the PEX system mfr allowed or suggested the use of hose clamps,
that would expose themselves and the installers to the possibility of
huge liability. The system as designed works, modify it at your own
risk.

cheers
Bob

On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 14:27:07 -0700, "Mamba" wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
OK, I posted about PEX clamping. I made the mistake of stating my
opinion about it, which is not in favor of it. Thus the whole
discussion thread went in that direction and the original point of my
post was lost.

So, I am posting it again, with the intended question.

I'm sure that in time there will be cheap generic crimp tools being
sold that only cost $19.99, but even at that, everyone owns a
screwdriver and with hose clamps being readily available, easy to
install, and much easier to remove than the PEX clamps now being sold,
why not just use hose clamps?

The Pex clamps I used (see links in my other posting) were actually easier
and faster than hose clamps. The point about the tool cost is valid, I paid
about $100 for mine. I know the ratchet style operation will not release
until you get to the correct tension for the clamp, then it will not let you
go further. This calibration makes the use idiotproof, which would be a
boon to many folks working with plumbing (at least Pex).

The one advantage of a pipe clamp might be that you can add one around an
installed conection, with the Pex clamp you need to remember to slide it
onto the tubing before fasterning to the connector. It's surprisingly tough
to pull the Pex off the connector in tight spots.

So if you object to purchasing a tool specially designed for the job, try
pipe clamps. I spent $100 on the tool, it took me 5-6 seconds to do each
clamp connection, and I had zero leaks in maybe 100 connectors throughout
the place. I had to take off some clamps when I plumbed a valve wrong and
also when I retrofitted a water filter. They are extremely easy to remove
with a good set of snips. Just remember to position the crimp to make it
available to get teh snips on. Not all Pex clamps I have seen work the same
way, but these ones were a snap.

IMHO, the tool was worth it for me, maybe not for everybody. The plastic
clamps you described in your other post would give me absolute nightmares.

Cheers
Gary


I never said anything about plastic clamps. I am referring to
stainless steel hose clamps used to connect (for example) a gas line
to a fuel pump or carb in a car.

I will agree that the tool is probably quicker than turning a screw on
a hose clamp, but if it takes me 20 seconds to turn a screw V/S the 5
seconds you spend, that's real minor compared to the cost of the tool.
Lets say you install 50 clamps. That would be 250 seconds with the
tool, (or 4+ minutes), or 1000 seconds (16+ minutes) with screw
clamps. That's 12 minutes difference. I'd have to earn hundreds of
dollars per hour to justify that. Sure, this will pay off for a
plumber, but not a homeowner. Actually, for myself, owning the tool
will actually pay to own because I am always doing some sort of
plumbing for myself or others. But for rthe average homeowner, it
wont pay at all if screw type hose clamps are the other option.

How you can cut them with a snips without cutting into the pipe itself
is beyond me. The problem starts when there are several clamp styles
available. I'd like to see the ones you use. Please post a photo or
web link to one. The ones I originally saw were just solid rings,
like a wedding ring, with nothing sticking out. Now I have seen the
ones with the tabs on the side that look like a hose clamp without the
screw and are probably stainless steel.

Like another poster said, will PEX become another situation like
aluminum wiring? And even if the pipe itself is durable and long
lasting, there is still no standard with the clamps. There are
several types. So even if I do decide to buy the tool, I'll wait till
they come up with a standard, or I may end up using Beta tapes when
everyone is using VHS, and end up with a costly useless tool.

THIS MESSAGE WAS APPROVED BY GOD

On Oct 23, 9:13 am, wrote:
On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 14:27:07 -0700, "Mamba" wrote:
wrote in message
.. .
OK, I posted about PEX clamping. I made the mistake of stating my
opinion about it, which is not in favor of it. Thus the whole
discussion thread went in that direction and the original point of my
post was lost.

So, I am posting it again, with the intended question.

I'm sure that in time there will be cheap generic crimp tools being
sold that only cost $19.99, but even at that, everyone owns a
screwdriver and with hose clamps being readily available, easy to
install, and much easier to remove than the PEX clamps now being sold,
why not just use hose clamps?

The Pex clamps I used (see links in my other posting) were actually easier
and faster than hose clamps. The point about the tool cost is valid, I paid
about $100 for mine. I know the ratchet style operation will not release
until you get to the correct tension for the clamp, then it will not let you
go further. This calibration makes the use idiotproof, which would be a
boon to many folks working with plumbing (at least Pex).

The one advantage of a pipe clamp might be that you can add one around an
installed conection, with the Pex clamp you need to remember to slide it
onto the tubing before fasterning to the connector. It's surprisingly tough
to pull the Pex off the connector in tight spots.

So if you object to purchasing a tool specially designed for the job, try
pipe clamps. I spent $100 on the tool, it took me 5-6 seconds to do each
clamp connection, and I had zero leaks in maybe 100 connectors throughout
the place. I had to take off some clamps when I plumbed a valve wrong and
also when I retrofitted a water filter. They are extremely easy to remove
with a good set of snips. Just remember to position the crimp to make it
available to get teh snips on. Not all Pex clamps I have seen work the same
way, but these ones were a snap.

IMHO, the tool was worth it for me, maybe not for everybody. The plastic
clamps you described in your other post would give me absolute nightmares.

Cheers
Gary

I never said anything about plastic clamps. I am referring to
stainless steel hose clamps used to connect (for example) a gas line
to a fuel pump or carb in a car.

I will agree that the tool is probably quicker than turning a screw on
a hose clamp, but if it takes me 20 seconds to turn a screw V/S the 5
seconds you spend, that's real minor compared to the cost of the tool.
Lets say you install 50 clamps. That would be 250 seconds with the
tool, (or 4+ minutes), or 1000 seconds (16+ minutes) with screw
clamps. That's 12 minutes difference. I'd have to earn hundreds of
dollars per hour to justify that. Sure, this will pay off for a
plumber, but not a homeowner. Actually, for myself, owning the tool
will actually pay to own because I am always doing some sort of
plumbing for myself or others. But for rthe average homeowner, it
wont pay at all if screw type hose clamps are the other option.

How you can cut them with a snips without cutting into the pipe itself
is beyond me. The problem starts when there are several clamp styles
available. I'd like to see the ones you use. Please post a photo or
web link to one. The ones I originally saw were just solid rings,
like a wedding ring, with nothing sticking out. Now I have seen the
ones with the tabs on the side that look like a hose clamp without the
screw and are probably stainless steel.

Like another poster said, will PEX become another situation like
aluminum wiring? And even if the pipe itself is durable and long
lasting, there is still no standard with the clamps. There are
several types. So even if I do decide to buy the tool, I'll wait till
they come up with a standard, or I may end up using Beta tapes when
everyone is using VHS, and end up with a costly useless tool.

THIS MESSAGE WAS APPROVED BY GOD

OP-

Check out the expander system......tools can be had reasonably on Ebay

I bought a hand expander w/ 1/2", 3/4" & 1" expander tips.

At first I was worried that the hand expander was going to be too
slow. But even with the hand expander I can easily make a PEX
connection faster than I can clean 1/2 of a copper joint. With the
home run design I had 32 (total) PEX joints for 2 baths, kitchen &
laundry room.

Plumbers use the pneumatic or battery powered expander......they are a
little faster but its mostly for ease of use (read: reliable and
repeatable)

The comparison of crimp rings to screw hose clamps is NOT
speed.................it is reliable and repeatable
results.

PEX is not (at this point) a DIY product unless you know what you're
doing.

So if the tools are a barrier to DIY use of PEX maybe that's not a bad
thing.

Consider the expander system (WIrsbo PEX), they've been around a long
time & they sell tons of PEX. The expander system has been around for
a long time & the installed base of tools is pretty extensive.

I doubt its going the way of BetaMax

See if you can borrow or even just see it being used. Make up some
joints & play with them. They're strong...just use the brass fittings
not the plastic onesss.

I was skeptical when I first was considering the PEX expander
system.
When I got my suuplies & tools, I made up some joints. I tried to
blow them up with my compressor. I pressured the PEX & even put in
hot water.

Couldn't get anything to fail. Of course I only went to 110 psi &
probably about 120F.

I was satisfies, PEX is a clean easy system.


About PEX becoming the next "aluminim wiring" problem. I had a
friend (a builder) tell me about PEX ~10 years ago when he was leaving
CA for TX. I haven't heard any horror stories (yet).


cheers
Bob

wrote in message
...
OK, I posted about PEX clamping. I made the mistake of stating my
opinion about it, which is not in favor of it. Thus the whole
discussion thread went in that direction and the original point of my
post was lost.

So, I am posting it again, with the intended question.

1. There are two types of PEX Clamping Tools (Crimp Tools) and two
types of crimp bands being sold. One is just a solid metal ring that
somehow (magically) shrinks when the tool is applied. The other looks
more like a common auto hose clamp minus the screw, and requires a
different tool. Which is better?

2. Why cant someone just use a common hose clamp? Hose clamps are a
tad bit more costly for the actual clamp, but the average DIY
homeowner is not going to spend $100 (or even $50) for the tool to do
one job. In the end, hose clamps are cheaper if the cost of the tool
is included. Better yet, hose clamps are easily removed and replaced.
It would seem to me that they would actually be better. I am
surprised they are not just used overall, even by plumbers, with their
only drawback being that stupid homeowners can loosen them and cause
problems. Hose clamps have been used exclusively for underground
plastic black pipe (I cant recall the type of pipe that is) where
people have wells, and they work well.

I'm sure that in time there will be cheap generic crimp tools being
sold that only cost $19.99, but even at that, everyone owns a
screwdriver and with hose clamps being readily available, easy to
install, and much easier to remove than the PEX clamps now being sold,
why not just use hose clamps?

This is a great idea, as long as you don't mind leaks in your wall a day, a
year, or 10 years, after you put it together.

Why not just buy your materials from a reliable plumbing supply place that will
rent you the tool for a day. Put everything in place, and then get the tool and
assemble the connectors in a few hours.

Bob

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 14:27:07 -0700, "Mamba" wrote:

wrote in message

I never said anything about plastic clamps.

I was refering to your original thread about Pex, where you said:

" I wonder how many pounds of pressure those plastic fittings will handle."

Perhaps I misinterpreted what you were talking about?


The links to the clamps :

http://www.pexsupply.com/categories....D=391&brandid=

The slightly raised area becomes compressed and pinches up, making it easy
to snip if removal is required. Rather ingenious actually.

The tool:

http://www.pexsupply.com/product_dtl...=Watts&cID=391

Easy to use ratchet style compression tool. Foolproof.

Another poster refered to the Pex expander tool. AFAIK, this version has a
"beak" that fits inside the plain connector collars and expands them, then
you quickly slip them on over tube/connector where they retract for
compression. I asked about these at the plumbing shop where I got my
materials. The very savvy guy there suggested that system required a lot
more muscle power than the tool I bought. I believe his quote included the
term "Popeye arms" ;-)

To be honest, it sounds like you just don't beleive Pex would ever be as
good as copper. Everybody's entitled to their opinion.

My opinion (based on comparative use) is that it's easy, safe and dependable
with this clamp/tool system.

Cheers
Gary

On Oct 23, 11:50 am, "Mamba" wrote:
wrote in message

...

On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 14:27:07 -0700, "Mamba" wrote:

wrote in message

I never said anything about plastic clamps.

I was refering to your original thread about Pex, where you said:

" I wonder how many pounds of pressure those plastic fittings will handle."

Perhaps I misinterpreted what you were talking about?

The links to the clamps :

http://www.pexsupply.com/categories....D=391&brandid=

The slightly raised area becomes compressed and pinches up, making it easy
to snip if removal is required. Rather ingenious actually.

The tool:

http://www.pexsupply.com/product_dtl...=Watts&cID=391

Easy to use ratchet style compression tool. Foolproof.

Another poster refered to the Pex expander tool. AFAIK, this version has a
"beak" that fits inside the plain connector collars and expands them, then
you quickly slip them on over tube/connector where they retract for
compression. I asked about these at the plumbing shop where I got my
materials. The very savvy guy there suggested that system required a lot
more muscle power than the tool I bought. I believe his quote included the
term "Popeye arms" ;-)

To be honest, it sounds like you just don't beleive Pex would ever be as
good as copper. Everybody's entitled to their opinion.

My opinion (based on comparative use) is that it's easy, safe and dependable
with this clamp/tool system.

Cheers
Gary

Gary-

I was concerned about the muscle power required as well...BEFORE
using the tool.

The Wirsbo hand expander is effortless...a little awkward until you
get the hang of it but really only very minor muscle power needed.

The very savvy guy there suggested that system required a lot
more muscle power than the tool I bought. I believe his quote
included the
term "Popeye arms" ;-)

I'd be surprised if the crimp tool required less muscle than the
expander..

I'll bet your "very savvy" guy

1. has never used the WIrsbo hand expander
2. only supports / stocks crimp type system
3. might have arm strength of Olive Oil not Popeye ( j/k)

cheers
Bob

"Bob F" wrote in message
. ..

wrote in message
...
OK, I posted about PEX clamping. I made the mistake of stating my
opinion about it, which is not in favor of it. Thus the whole
discussion thread went in that direction and the original point of my
post was lost.

So, I am posting it again, with the intended question.

1. There are two types of PEX Clamping Tools (Crimp Tools) and two
types of crimp bands being sold. One is just a solid metal ring that
somehow (magically) shrinks when the tool is applied. The other looks
more like a common auto hose clamp minus the screw, and requires a
different tool. Which is better?

If you want a hack job, then use a hose clamp.

I know that a hose clamp will NEVER be as strong as the crimp ring used on
PEX.

Also, you are not supposed to reuse a PEX joint, so if you cut the ring off,
you will need to clip the end off the hose as well.

On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 19:49:42 GMT, "Noozer" wrote:

If you want a hack job, then use a hose clamp.

nuf said...


I know that a hose clamp will NEVER be as strong as the crimp ring used on
PEX.

The clamp would strip/break first

Also, you are not supposed to reuse a PEX joint, so if you cut the ring off,
you will need to clip the end off the hose as well.

This is detailed in the material for my PEX system...now ten years
old.


--
Oren

"I wouldn't even be here if my support group hadn't beaten me up."

"BobK207" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Oct 23, 11:50 am, "Mamba" wrote:
wrote in message


Gary-

I was concerned about the muscle power required as well...BEFORE
using the tool.

The Wirsbo hand expander is effortless...a little awkward until you
get the hang of it but really only very minor muscle power needed.

The very savvy guy there suggested that system required a lot
more muscle power than the tool I bought. I believe his quote
included the
term "Popeye arms" ;-)

I'd be surprised if the crimp tool required less muscle than the
expander..

I'll bet your "very savvy" guy

1. has never used the WIrsbo hand expander
2. only supports / stocks crimp type system
3. might have arm strength of Olive Oil not Popeye ( j/k)

cheers
Bob

Tnx

I haven't tried it myself (the Wirsbo tool). The OP had a question about
how to remove one if required. Is the clamp a sinple ring-type collar? If
so, how would you remove one if necessary?

On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 14:02:42 -0700, "Mamba" wrote:

Is the clamp a sinple ring-type collar? If
so, how would you remove one if necessary?

Use a Dremel tool (proper blade) to cut a diagonal slice on the ring
side. Peel away enough to remove the ring.

--
Oren

"I wouldn't even be here if my support group hadn't beaten me up."

On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 17:01:42 -0000, BobK207
wrote:

On Oct 23, 9:13 am, wrote:
On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 14:27:07 -0700, "Mamba" wrote:
wrote in message
.. .
OK, I posted about PEX clamping. I made the mistake of stating my
opinion about it, which is not in favor of it. Thus the whole
discussion thread went in that direction and the original point of my
post was lost.

So, I am posting it again, with the intended question.

I'm sure that in time there will be cheap generic crimp tools being
sold that only cost $19.99, but even at that, everyone owns a
screwdriver and with hose clamps being readily available, easy to
install, and much easier to remove than the PEX clamps now being sold,
why not just use hose clamps?

The Pex clamps I used (see links in my other posting) were actually easier
and faster than hose clamps. The point about the tool cost is valid, I paid
about $100 for mine. I know the ratchet style operation will not release
until you get to the correct tension for the clamp, then it will not let you
go further. This calibration makes the use idiotproof, which would be a
boon to many folks working with plumbing (at least Pex).

The one advantage of a pipe clamp might be that you can add one around an
installed conection, with the Pex clamp you need to remember to slide it
onto the tubing before fasterning to the connector. It's surprisingly tough
to pull the Pex off the connector in tight spots.

So if you object to purchasing a tool specially designed for the job, try
pipe clamps. I spent $100 on the tool, it took me 5-6 seconds to do each
clamp connection, and I had zero leaks in maybe 100 connectors throughout
the place. I had to take off some clamps when I plumbed a valve wrong and
also when I retrofitted a water filter. They are extremely easy to remove
with a good set of snips. Just remember to position the crimp to make it
available to get teh snips on. Not all Pex clamps I have seen work the same
way, but these ones were a snap.

IMHO, the tool was worth it for me, maybe not for everybody. The plastic
clamps you described in your other post would give me absolute nightmares.

Cheers
Gary

I never said anything about plastic clamps. I am referring to
stainless steel hose clamps used to connect (for example) a gas line
to a fuel pump or carb in a car.

I will agree that the tool is probably quicker than turning a screw on
a hose clamp, but if it takes me 20 seconds to turn a screw V/S the 5
seconds you spend, that's real minor compared to the cost of the tool.
Lets say you install 50 clamps. That would be 250 seconds with the
tool, (or 4+ minutes), or 1000 seconds (16+ minutes) with screw
clamps. That's 12 minutes difference. I'd have to earn hundreds of
dollars per hour to justify that. Sure, this will pay off for a
plumber, but not a homeowner. Actually, for myself, owning the tool
will actually pay to own because I am always doing some sort of
plumbing for myself or others. But for rthe average homeowner, it
wont pay at all if screw type hose clamps are the other option.

How you can cut them with a snips without cutting into the pipe itself
is beyond me. The problem starts when there are several clamp styles
available. I'd like to see the ones you use. Please post a photo or
web link to one. The ones I originally saw were just solid rings,
like a wedding ring, with nothing sticking out. Now I have seen the
ones with the tabs on the side that look like a hose clamp without the
screw and are probably stainless steel.

Like another poster said, will PEX become another situation like
aluminum wiring? And even if the pipe itself is durable and long
lasting, there is still no standard with the clamps. There are
several types. So even if I do decide to buy the tool, I'll wait till
they come up with a standard, or I may end up using Beta tapes when
everyone is using VHS, and end up with a costly useless tool.

THIS MESSAGE WAS APPROVED BY GOD

OP-

Check out the expander system......tools can be had reasonably on Ebay

I bought a hand expander w/ 1/2", 3/4" & 1" expander tips.

At first I was worried that the hand expander was going to be too
slow. But even with the hand expander I can easily make a PEX
connection faster than I can clean 1/2 of a copper joint. With the
home run design I had 32 (total) PEX joints for 2 baths, kitchen &
laundry room.

Plumbers use the pneumatic or battery powered expander......they are a
little faster but its mostly for ease of use (read: reliable and
repeatable)

The comparison of crimp rings to screw hose clamps is NOT
speed.................it is reliable and repeatable
results.

PEX is not (at this point) a DIY product unless you know what you're
doing.

So if the tools are a barrier to DIY use of PEX maybe that's not a bad
thing.

Consider the expander system (WIrsbo PEX), they've been around a long
time & they sell tons of PEX. The expander system has been around for
a long time & the installed base of tools is pretty extensive.

I doubt its going the way of BetaMax

See if you can borrow or even just see it being used. Make up some
joints & play with them. They're strong...just use the brass fittings
not the plastic onesss.

I was skeptical when I first was considering the PEX expander
system.
When I got my suuplies & tools, I made up some joints. I tried to
blow them up with my compressor. I pressured the PEX & even put in
hot water.

Couldn't get anything to fail. Of course I only went to 110 psi &
probably about 120F.

I was satisfies, PEX is a clean easy system.


About PEX becoming the next "aluminim wiring" problem. I had a
friend (a builder) tell me about PEX ~10 years ago when he was leaving
CA for TX. I haven't heard any horror stories (yet).


cheers
Bob

Bob

Could you please explain the "expander system". Maybe there is a web
site...... I am not totally understanding what you mean.

Thanks
Alvin

On Oct 23, 2:02 pm, "Mamba" wrote:
"BobK207" wrote in message

ups.com...

On Oct 23, 11:50 am, "Mamba" wrote:
wrote in message

Gary-

I was concerned about the muscle power required as well...BEFORE
using the tool.

The Wirsbo hand expander is effortless...a little awkward until you
get the hang of it but really only very minor muscle power needed.

The very savvy guy there suggested that system required a lot
more muscle power than the tool I bought. I believe his quote
included the
term "Popeye arms" ;-)

I'd be surprised if the crimp tool required less muscle than the
expander..

I'll bet your "very savvy" guy

1. has never used the WIrsbo hand expander
2. only supports / stocks crimp type system
3. might have arm strength of Olive Oil not Popeye ( j/k)

cheers
Bob

Tnx

I haven't tried it myself (the Wirsbo tool). The OP had a question about
how to remove one if required. Is the clamp a sinple ring-type collar? If
so, how would you remove one if necessary?

Gary-

In the expander system there is no clamp.

The expander system uses a "doubler" ring (just a plain thick walled
ring) that is slipped over the end of the PEX tube. The tube &
double ring are both expanded using the expansion tool. When in the
expanded state the combo is slipped over the fitting.

The key to system is the "shape memory" of the PEX tube & doubler
ring. They "relax" back onto the fitting creating a tight seal.
Pretty amazing.

Yeah, I was skeptical. I researched & worried. I played with it when
I got it.

Is the OP calling this system the "plastic clamp"?

Anyway the joint can be "undone" using a utility knife. Carefully
shave the ring, once you're through the ring it can be peeled off.
Next shave the PEX tube....if you want to re-use the fitting, DO NOT
scratch or score the fitting. When you shave through more than 1/2
the tube you can, by hand, pry / wrench the tube free of the fitting.

I did it in a couple of locations to "re-wire" my manifold.

If you don't need to re-use the fitting just cut the tube.

check out
http://www.uponor-usa.com/Header/Ser...%20Tubing.aspx
http://www.sheltertech.com/wirsbo_pex_tubing.htm
http://www.pexsupply.com/CategoryPre...D=363&brandid=

cheers
Bob

"Bob F" writes:

Why not just buy your materials from a reliable plumbing supply place
that will rent you the tool for a day. Put everything in place, and
then get the tool and assemble the connectors in a few hours.

You can also rent the crimp tool from Home Depot, at least one that has
a rental department. It's cheap for a few hours, even a few days will
cost you less than a new tool.

Dave

wrote:

2. Why cant someone just use a common hose clamp? Hose clamps are a
tad bit more costly for the actual clamp, but the average DIY
homeowner is not going to spend $100 (or even $50) for the tool to do
one job.

I think it's because those clamps don't apply even pressure all around
the hose because the clamp is distorted where its screw fits. It's
also possible that their screws work loose (one brand of clamp had a
screw lock to prevent this). I have a heater hose fitting on my car
that's a lot more likely to leak when I use a screw hose clamp rather
than the factory flat spring steel clamp, even though the latter
doesn't seem to clamp as tightly. Also I've read that air conditioner
hoses for cars have to be crimped for systems that use leak-prone
R-134a refrigerant rather than the old and now-illegal R-12, and one
FAQ about making those crimp connections recommended actually
measuring the crimps every 60 degrees with a micrometer o make sure
they were perfectly round. Sure, household plumbing connections
aren't the same as A/C or heater hose connections, but then the latter
two aren't buried underground or inside walls and aren't expected to
last decades without maintenance.

On Oct 23, 4:06 pm, wrote:
On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 17:01:42 -0000, BobK207
wrote:



On Oct 23, 9:13 am, wrote:
On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 14:27:07 -0700, "Mamba" wrote:
wrote in message
.. .
OK, I posted about PEX clamping. I made the mistake of stating my
opinion about it, which is not in favor of it. Thus the whole
discussion thread went in that direction and the original point of my
post was lost.

So, I am posting it again, with the intended question.

I'm sure that in time there will be cheap generic crimp tools being
sold that only cost $19.99, but even at that, everyone owns a
screwdriver and with hose clamps being readily available, easy to
install, and much easier to remove than the PEX clamps now being sold,
why not just use hose clamps?

The Pex clamps I used (see links in my other posting) were actually easier
and faster than hose clamps. The point about the tool cost is valid, I paid
about $100 for mine. I know the ratchet style operation will not release
until you get to the correct tension for the clamp, then it will not let you
go further. This calibration makes the use idiotproof, which would be a
boon to many folks working with plumbing (at least Pex).

The one advantage of a pipe clamp might be that you can add one around an
installed conection, with the Pex clamp you need to remember to slide it
onto the tubing before fasterning to the connector. It's surprisingly tough
to pull the Pex off the connector in tight spots.

So if you object to purchasing a tool specially designed for the job, try
pipe clamps. I spent $100 on the tool, it took me 5-6 seconds to do each
clamp connection, and I had zero leaks in maybe 100 connectors throughout
the place. I had to take off some clamps when I plumbed a valve wrong and
also when I retrofitted a water filter. They are extremely easy to remove
with a good set of snips. Just remember to position the crimp to make it
available to get teh snips on. Not all Pex clamps I have seen work the same
way, but these ones were a snap.

IMHO, the tool was worth it for me, maybe not for everybody. The plastic
clamps you described in your other post would give me absolute nightmares.

Cheers
Gary

I never said anything about plastic clamps. I am referring to
stainless steel hose clamps used to connect (for example) a gas line
to a fuel pump or carb in a car.

I will agree that the tool is probably quicker than turning a screw on
a hose clamp, but if it takes me 20 seconds to turn a screw V/S the 5
seconds you spend, that's real minor compared to the cost of the tool.
Lets say you install 50 clamps. That would be 250 seconds with the
tool, (or 4+ minutes), or 1000 seconds (16+ minutes) with screw
clamps. That's 12 minutes difference. I'd have to earn hundreds of
dollars per hour to justify that. Sure, this will pay off for a
plumber, but not a homeowner. Actually, for myself, owning the tool
will actually pay to own because I am always doing some sort of
plumbing for myself or others. But for rthe average homeowner, it
wont pay at all if screw type hose clamps are the other option.

How you can cut them with a snips without cutting into the pipe itself
is beyond me. The problem starts when there are several clamp styles
available. I'd like to see the ones you use. Please post a photo or
web link to one. The ones I originally saw were just solid rings,
like a wedding ring, with nothing sticking out. Now I have seen the
ones with the tabs on the side that look like a hose clamp without the
screw and are probably stainless steel.

Like another poster said, will PEX become another situation like
aluminum wiring? And even if the pipe itself is durable and long
lasting, there is still no standard with the clamps. There are
several types. So even if I do decide to buy the tool, I'll wait till
they come up with a standard, or I may end up using Beta tapes when
everyone is using VHS, and end up with a costly useless tool.

THIS MESSAGE WAS APPROVED BY GOD

OP-

Check out the expander system......tools can be had reasonably on Ebay

I bought a hand expander w/ 1/2", 3/4" & 1" expander tips.

At first I was worried that the hand expander was going to be too
slow. But even with the hand expander I can easily make a PEX
connection faster than I can clean 1/2 of a copper joint. With the
home run design I had 32 (total) PEX joints for 2 baths, kitchen &
laundry room.

Plumbers use the pneumatic or battery powered expander......they are a
little faster but its mostly for ease of use (read: reliable and
repeatable)

The comparison of crimp rings to screw hose clamps is NOT
speed.................it is reliable and repeatable
results.

PEX is not (at this point) a DIY product unless you know what you're
doing.

So if the tools are a barrier to DIY use of PEX maybe that's not a bad
thing.

Consider the expander system (WIrsbo PEX), they've been around a long
time & they sell tons of PEX. The expander system has been around for
a long time & the installed base of tools is pretty extensive.

I doubt its going the way of BetaMax

See if you can borrow or even just see it being used. Make up some
joints & play with them. They're strong...just use the brass fittings
not the plastic onesss.

I was skeptical when I first was considering the PEX expander
system.
When I got my suuplies & tools, I made up some joints. I tried to
blow them up with my compressor. I pressured the PEX & even put in
hot water.

Couldn't get anything to fail. Of course I only went to 110 psi &
probably about 120F.

I was satisfies, PEX is a clean easy system.

About PEX becoming the next "aluminim wiring" problem. I had a
friend (a builder) tell me about PEX ~10 years ago when he was leaving
CA for TX. I haven't heard any horror stories (yet).

cheers
Bob

Bob

Could you please explain the "expander system". Maybe there is a web
site...... I am not totally understanding what you mean.

Thanks
Alvin

Alvin-

I'll admit that the explanation is kind of hard to understand, not
having the benefit of having all the parts & tools in hand.

Before I got all the stuff & tried it out it seemed a bit like magic.

I think Uponor (Wirsbo) depends on sales reps & distributors to get
the word out and do training. Without hands on training its hard to
see how well it works.

I have yet to find a great explanation on the web

Here is a link to a heating system installation manual...about page 20
they start talking about the expander and few pages later the are some
pictures.

http://www.heatinghelp.com/pdfs/71.pdf

here's a link to the expander tool kit

http://www.uponor-usa.com/Header/Ser...nd%20Tool.aspx

Here's a link showing the PEX tube with a doubler ring slipped on to
it ready for expansion.

http://www.uponor-usa.com/Header/Ser...%20Tubing.aspx

To expand the tube & ring, you shove the tube & ring over the expander
tool and pump the handle a few times (rotate the tube assembly 90 deg
between pumps).. The key is to get the assembly expanded enough to
slip over the fitting.

I have used & recommend the brass ProPex fittings.

Hold the fitting and the tube assembly together (fully seated) until
the tube & ring shrink back to their original size (about 20
secs)......you're done.

www.pexsupply.com has the best PEX parts website I have found. A
little difficult to find all the stuff but its all there


Bob

wrote:
OK, I posted about PEX clamping. I made the mistake of stating my
opinion about it, which is not in favor of it. Thus the whole
discussion thread went in that direction and the original point of my
post was lost.

So, I am posting it again, with the intended question.

1. There are two types of PEX Clamping Tools (Crimp Tools) and two
types of crimp bands being sold. One is just a solid metal ring that
somehow (magically) shrinks

If you think compressing a small cylinder of copper is "magic" ... ho boy...

when the tool is applied. The other looks
more like a common auto hose clamp minus the screw, and requires a
different tool. Which is better?


Don't know - I used the solid ones.

2. Why cant someone just use a common hose clamp?

Because they're not as strong? Because they're not even? Because you can
over *and* under-tighten them? (How can you tell if they're the right
pressure?) Because they can work loose? Because they're not designed to be
used with PEX? Because they're *more* expensive than the little copper rings?


I'm sure that in time there will be cheap generic crimp tools being
sold that only cost $19.99, but even at that everyone owns a
screwdriver

Pretty much everyone owns a pair of Vice Grips too:
http://www.pexcrimper.com/

Did you miss that link in the previous thread? At around 50 crimpings,
you'll save the cost of the crimper because you're not buying 50 hose clamps!

and with hose clamps being readily available, easy to
install, and much easier to remove

Who cares? When has "ease of removability" ever been a goal in plumbing?
Seriously - that's just asking for leaks.

than the PEX clamps now being sold,
why not just use hose clamps?

Forget about it... just go to Home Depot and pay $20 for 50' of PEX, grab
some fittings and some hose clamps...

Let us know how it goes. For the time and energy you and others have put
into this (and other) thread(s), you could have tried the hose clamps on a
small project already! Whaddya got to loose? Remember the hose clamps are
easy to remove right?

a

replying to Mamba, aplumbernamedlee wrote:
gw wrote:

wrote in message
...
The Pex clamps I used (see links in my other posting) were actually easier
and faster than hose clamps. The point about the tool cost is valid, I
paid
about $100 for mine. I know the ratchet style operation will not release
until you get to the correct tension for the clamp, then it will not let
you
go further. This calibration makes the use idiotproof, which would be a
boon to many folks working with plumbing (at least Pex).
The one advantage of a pipe clamp might be that you can add one around an
installed conection, with the Pex clamp you need to remember to slide it
onto the tubing before fasterning to the connector. It's surprisingly
tough
to pull the Pex off the connector in tight spots.
So if you object to purchasing a tool specially designed for the job, try
pipe clamps. I spent $100 on the tool, it took me 5-6 seconds to do each
clamp connection, and I had zero leaks in maybe 100 connectors throughout
the place. I had to take off some clamps when I plumbed a valve wrong
and
also when I retrofitted a water filter. They are extremely easy to remove
with a good set of snips. Just remember to position the crimp to make it
available to get teh snips on. Not all Pex clamps I have seen work the
same
way, but these ones were a snap.
IMHO, the tool was worth it for me, maybe not for everybody. The plastic
clamps you described in your other post would give me absolute nightmares.
Cheers
Gary

Notice that all responses had nothing to do with engineering or anything
scientific such as psi or loads etc.. Why don't all of you brilliant
plumbers do a simple test! Buy a 50 cent piece of pex (you already have
some lying around) and a pex elbow for the correct diameter (probably have
one of those al well) and then attach the elbow using a standard stainless
steel hose clamp! Now try to remove it by force, and you can exert more
force by hand than any lateral sheer force exerted by water flowing
through the pex (I've already tried it and I can't budge the fitting) and
you'll not be able to remove! Doubt you've done as much plumbing work as
you say or you'd know that securing fittings in tight spaces especially in
remodel jobs can be hard and pex tools do not help that any but a
screwdriver fits almost anywhere! A ten cent hose clamp from Harbor
Freight Tools will work fine and can be removed in the future without
damaging the pex! Would love to hear from an engineer about the
foolishness of the above claims!


--

On Wed, 28 Jan 2015 15:44:02 +0000, aplumbernamedlee
wrote:

replying to Mamba, aplumbernamedlee wrote:
gw wrote:

wrote in message
...
The Pex clamps I used (see links in my other posting) were actually easier
and faster than hose clamps. The point about the tool cost is valid, I
paid
about $100 for mine. I know the ratchet style operation will not release
until you get to the correct tension for the clamp, then it will not let
you
go further. This calibration makes the use idiotproof, which would be a
boon to many folks working with plumbing (at least Pex).
The one advantage of a pipe clamp might be that you can add one around an
installed conection, with the Pex clamp you need to remember to slide it
onto the tubing before fasterning to the connector. It's surprisingly
tough
to pull the Pex off the connector in tight spots.
So if you object to purchasing a tool specially designed for the job, try
pipe clamps. I spent $100 on the tool, it took me 5-6 seconds to do each
clamp connection, and I had zero leaks in maybe 100 connectors throughout
the place. I had to take off some clamps when I plumbed a valve wrong
and
also when I retrofitted a water filter. They are extremely easy to remove
with a good set of snips. Just remember to position the crimp to make it
available to get teh snips on. Not all Pex clamps I have seen work the
same
way, but these ones were a snap.
IMHO, the tool was worth it for me, maybe not for everybody. The plastic
clamps you described in your other post would give me absolute nightmares.
Cheers
Gary

Notice that all responses had nothing to do with engineering or anything
scientific such as psi or loads etc.. Why don't all of you brilliant
plumbers do a simple test! Buy a 50 cent piece of pex (you already have
some lying around) and a pex elbow for the correct diameter (probably have
one of those al well) and then attach the elbow using a standard stainless
steel hose clamp! Now try to remove it by force, and you can exert more
force by hand than any lateral sheer force exerted by water flowing
through the pex (I've already tried it and I can't budge the fitting) and
you'll not be able to remove! Doubt you've done as much plumbing work as
you say or you'd know that securing fittings in tight spaces especially in
remodel jobs can be hard and pex tools do not help that any but a
screwdriver fits almost anywhere! A ten cent hose clamp from Harbor
Freight Tools will work fine and can be removed in the future without
damaging the pex! Would love to hear from an engineer about the
foolishness of the above claims!
A "ten cent hose clamp from Harbor Frieght" does not clamp uniformly
around the hose, and partucularly on relatively hard PEX I would never
trust one. A more expensive "full circle" clamp as used for fuel
injection hoses MIGHT be acceptable, as it applies the same clamping
pressire all the way around the connection.

On Wed, 28 Jan 2015 15:44:02 +0000, aplumbernamedlee
wrote:

also when I retrofitted a water filter. They are extremely easy to remove
with a good set of snips. Just remember to position the crimp to make it
available to get teh snips on. Not all Pex clamps I have seen work the
same
way, but these ones were a snap.
IMHO, the tool was worth it for me, maybe not for everybody. The plastic
clamps you described in your other post would give me absolute nightmares.
Cheers
Gary

Notice that all responses had nothing to do with engineering or anything
scientific such as psi or loads etc.. Why don't all of you brilliant
plumbers do a simple test! Buy a 50 cent piece of pex (you already have
some lying around) and a pex elbow for the correct diameter (probably have
one of those al well) and then attach the elbow using a standard stainless
steel hose clamp! Now try to remove it by force, and you can exert more
force by hand than any lateral sheer force exerted by water flowing
through the pex (I've already tried it and I can't budge the fitting) and
you'll not be able to remove! Doubt you've done as much plumbing work as
you say or you'd know that securing fittings in tight spaces especially in
remodel jobs can be hard and pex tools do not help that any but a
screwdriver fits almost anywhere! A ten cent hose clamp from Harbor
Freight Tools will work fine and can be removed in the future without
damaging the pex! Would love to hear from an engineer about the
foolishness of the above claims!

This looks like another of those old posts from years ago, reposted by a
remailer, or whatever that is called. But either way, I have always
wondered why a hose clamp would not work on PEX. They work fine on Poly
pipe which is generally used underground and PEX has a similar 'feel' to
it. I've actually wanted to try using hose clamps just to see if it
would work.

Hose clamps would be beneficial as far as making it easy to use in tight
places as well as easy to remove clamps to modify the plumbing....
Of course they must be tightened properly!

However, I am sure this would not meet the code!!!

*If I was to do this, I would NOT use those cheapo HF clamps though. Id
buy the best, all stainless steel ones I could find.

On Wed, 28 Jan 2015 15:44:02 +0000, aplumbernamedlee
wrote:

Notice that all responses had nothing to do with engineering or anything
scientific such as psi or loads etc.. Why don't all of you brilliant
plumbers do a simple test! Buy a 50 cent piece of pex (you already have
some lying around) and a pex elbow for the correct diameter (probably have
one of those al well) and then attach the elbow using a standard stainless
steel hose clamp! Now try to remove it by force, and you can exert more
force by hand than any lateral sheer force exerted by water flowing
through the pex (I've already tried it and I can't budge the fitting) and
you'll not be able to remove! Doubt you've done as much plumbing work as
you say or you'd know that securing fittings in tight spaces especially in
remodel jobs can be hard and pex tools do not help that any but a
screwdriver fits almost anywhere! A ten cent hose clamp from Harbor
Freight Tools will work fine and can be removed in the future without
damaging the pex! Would love to hear from an engineer about the
foolishness of the above claims!

Maybe you can explain why PEX suppliers don't sell "hose clamps".

PEX fittings use crimp rings or expansion tools. I'd not use a SS hose
clamp as a end-all solution.

I doubt you've been around PEX much, seen it installed or have a house
'full' of it.
--
"I am the infidel your Imam warned you about." Jan Morgan,Gun
Cave Indoor Firing Range operator.

posted for all of us...



On Wed, 28 Jan 2015 15:44:02 +0000, aplumbernamedlee
wrote:

replying to Mamba, aplumbernamedlee wrote:
gw wrote:

wrote in message
...
The Pex clamps I used (see links in my other posting) were actually easier
and faster than hose clamps. The point about the tool cost is valid, I
paid
about $100 for mine. I know the ratchet style operation will not release
until you get to the correct tension for the clamp, then it will not let
you
go further. This calibration makes the use idiotproof, which would be a
boon to many folks working with plumbing (at least Pex).
The one advantage of a pipe clamp might be that you can add one around an
installed conection, with the Pex clamp you need to remember to slide it
onto the tubing before fasterning to the connector. It's surprisingly
tough
to pull the Pex off the connector in tight spots.
So if you object to purchasing a tool specially designed for the job, try
pipe clamps. I spent $100 on the tool, it took me 5-6 seconds to do each
clamp connection, and I had zero leaks in maybe 100 connectors throughout
the place. I had to take off some clamps when I plumbed a valve wrong
and
also when I retrofitted a water filter. They are extremely easy to remove
with a good set of snips. Just remember to position the crimp to make it
available to get teh snips on. Not all Pex clamps I have seen work the
same
way, but these ones were a snap.
IMHO, the tool was worth it for me, maybe not for everybody. The plastic
clamps you described in your other post would give me absolute nightmares.
Cheers
Gary

Notice that all responses had nothing to do with engineering or anything
scientific such as psi or loads etc.. Why don't all of you brilliant
plumbers do a simple test! Buy a 50 cent piece of pex (you already have
some lying around) and a pex elbow for the correct diameter (probably have
one of those al well) and then attach the elbow using a standard stainless
steel hose clamp! Now try to remove it by force, and you can exert more
force by hand than any lateral sheer force exerted by water flowing
through the pex (I've already tried it and I can't budge the fitting) and
you'll not be able to remove! Doubt you've done as much plumbing work as
you say or you'd know that securing fittings in tight spaces especially in
remodel jobs can be hard and pex tools do not help that any but a
screwdriver fits almost anywhere! A ten cent hose clamp from Harbor
Freight Tools will work fine and can be removed in the future without
damaging the pex! Would love to hear from an engineer about the
foolishness of the above claims!
A "ten cent hose clamp from Harbor Frieght" does not clamp uniformly
around the hose, and partucularly on relatively hard PEX I would never
trust one. A more expensive "full circle" clamp as used for fuel
injection hoses MIGHT be acceptable, as it applies the same clamping
pressire all the way around the connection.

Claire, most people do not know that a screw hose clamp does not clamp
uniformly, hence they use it inappropriately. I always replace OE stuff with
like parts.

I had a buddy whose daughter crashed the LeBaron *again* Ran it into a curb.
No body damage but half shaft bent. He comes to me and complains the body
shop that did the previous repair used an aluminum bolt on the steering
column and it broke. He was cursing the shop for shoddy work, etc. Until I
explained that bolt was there to mitigate chest injuries and maybe think
that the shop saved the girl from more serious possibly fatal injuries.

--
Tekkie *Please post a follow-up*

On Monday, October 22, 2007 at 4:52:02 PM UTC-4, wrote:
OK, I posted about PEX clamping. I made the mistake of stating my
opinion about it, which is not in favor of it. Thus the whole
discussion thread went in that direction and the original point of my
post was lost.

So, I am posting it again, with the intended question.

1. There are two types of PEX Clamping Tools (Crimp Tools) and two
types of crimp bands being sold. One is just a solid metal ring that
somehow (magically) shrinks when the tool is applied. The other looks
more like a common auto hose clamp minus the screw, and requires a
different tool. Which is better?

2. Why cant someone just use a common hose clamp? Hose clamps are a
tad bit more costly for the actual clamp, but the average DIY
homeowner is not going to spend $100 (or even $50) for the tool to do
one job. In the end, hose clamps are cheaper if the cost of the tool
is included. Better yet, hose clamps are easily removed and replaced.
It would seem to me that they would actually be better. I am
surprised they are not just used overall, even by plumbers, with their
only drawback being that stupid homeowners can loosen them and cause
problems. Hose clamps have been used exclusively for underground
plastic black pipe (I cant recall the type of pipe that is) where
people have wells, and they work well.

I'm sure that in time there will be cheap generic crimp tools being
sold that only cost $19.99, but even at that, everyone owns a
screwdriver and with hose clamps being readily available, easy to
install, and much easier to remove than the PEX clamps now being sold,
why not just use hose clamps?

Hose clamps work on thick walled rubber hoses. Hose clamps wouldn't work on pex. If you have pex plumbing in your house and usually do diy plumbing then buy the tool. Otherwise there are some reusable connectors that work on pex and can be used on "occasional" repairs. They work fine, the only trouble is they run around $10 a piece.

On Thu, 5 Feb 2015 13:43:24 -0800 (PST), jamesgang
wrote:


Hose clamps work on thick walled rubber hoses. Hose clamps wouldn't work on pex. If you have pex plumbing in your house and usually do diy plumbing then buy the tool. Otherwise there are some reusable connectors that work on pex and can be used on "occasional" repairs. They work fine, the only trouble is they run around $10 a piece.

+ 1

Renting the tool for a day, driving forty miles round trip to get it,
return it, seemed foolish. At the time I bought the tools, the store
did not have a "combination" sized crimper (3/8 & 1/2 inch). I think I
paid ~$75 for them both. My house is PEX with a manifold. The only
repair I _made_ was around 2006 during a bathroom tub remodel and that
was just to extend two lines longer, to reach tub faucets. At that
time I bought extra crimp rings and fittings. They are still in the
drawer but have not been needed since. If my neighbor(S) needs them I
have 'em.

I'd never use hose clamps.

On 2/5/2015 1:43 PM, jamesgang wrote:
On Monday, October 22, 2007 at 4:52:02 PM UTC-4, wrote:
OK, I posted about PEX clamping. I made the mistake of stating my
opinion about it, which is not in favor of it. Thus the whole
discussion thread went in that direction and the original point of my
post was lost.

So, I am posting it again, with the intended question.

1. There are two types of PEX Clamping Tools (Crimp Tools) and two
types of crimp bands being sold. One is just a solid metal ring that
somehow (magically) shrinks when the tool is applied. The other looks
more like a common auto hose clamp minus the screw, and requires a
different tool. Which is better?

2. Why cant someone just use a common hose clamp? Hose clamps are a
tad bit more costly for the actual clamp, but the average DIY
homeowner is not going to spend $100 (or even $50) for the tool to do
one job. In the end, hose clamps are cheaper if the cost of the tool
is included. Better yet, hose clamps are easily removed and replaced.
It would seem to me that they would actually be better. I am
surprised they are not just used overall, even by plumbers, with their
only drawback being that stupid homeowners can loosen them and cause
problems. Hose clamps have been used exclusively for underground
plastic black pipe (I cant recall the type of pipe that is) where
people have wells, and they work well.

I'm sure that in time there will be cheap generic crimp tools being
sold that only cost $19.99, but even at that, everyone owns a
screwdriver and with hose clamps being readily available, easy to
install, and much easier to remove than the PEX clamps now being sold,
why not just use hose clamps?

Hose clamps work on thick walled rubber hoses. Hose clamps wouldn't work on pex. If you have pex plumbing in your house and usually do diy plumbing then buy the tool. Otherwise there are some reusable connectors that work on pex and can be used on "occasional" repairs. They work fine, the only trouble is they run around $10 a piece.

I bought the continuous ring crimper to replace my water main.
Cost me $50 per crimp. Still not a large part of the cost.
One thing to watch out for is clearance.
To get enough leverage, I had to dig the pit several feet wider
so
I could climb down in the hole and hurt myself trying to squeeze
the handles in an awkward position.
The other type of clamp may not require precise alignment of the tool
and work better in tight spaces. Hydraulic crimpers solve the problem.

I wouldn't even think about using screw-type hose clamps.
Just compare the cost of a leak in your wall while you're out of town
to the cost of doing it right.
Decision should be obvious.

You're gonna get the permits and have inspections, right?
Inspector probably won't like hose clamps.

replying to George, aplumbernamedlee wrote:
george wrote:

Because PEX isn't a hose. It is a permanent plumbing system which
frequently is concealed. Crimp connections produce reliable and
repeatable results.

Now that's about the dumbest thing I've ever heard! It's a damned piece
of poly hose! Don't tell anyone what you think...text it for yourselves!
Hose clamps don't provide even pressure, Pex is made for a clamp etc. are
about as stupid a response and anyone can write! Just put a 10 cent hose
clamp on a piece of pex & a elbow fitting and see for yourselves! Any
engineer worth a damn will try it and then write about it instead of
spouting some inane response about what they think! And in case you're
wondering...everyone else all over the world uses hose clamps with pex and
has been doing so longer than we've had Pex! Don't forget when pex was
introduced here no self respecting plumber would even consider using pex
and it was badmouthed from here to Boston!


--

On Fri, 06 Feb 2015 04:44:02 +0000, aplumbernamedlee
wrote:

replying to George, aplumbernamedlee wrote:
george wrote:

Because PEX isn't a hose. It is a permanent plumbing system which
frequently is concealed. Crimp connections produce reliable and
repeatable results.

Now that's about the dumbest thing I've ever heard! It's a damned piece
of poly hose! Don't tell anyone what you think...text it for yourselves!
Hose clamps don't provide even pressure, Pex is made for a clamp etc. are
about as stupid a response and anyone can write! Just put a 10 cent hose
clamp on a piece of pex & a elbow fitting and see for yourselves! Any
engineer worth a damn will try it and then write about it instead of
spouting some inane response about what they think! And in case you're
wondering...everyone else all over the world uses hose clamps with pex and
has been doing so longer than we've had Pex! Don't forget when pex was
introduced here no self respecting plumber would even consider using pex
and it was badmouthed from here to Boston!

Do you have a link to any PEX supplier that states a "hose clamp" is
suitable and can be used in lieu of crimp rings or expansion tools?

Just because you are adamant about using a hose clamp does not make it
the "best practice" solution.

Tapping fingers here...waiting for a link.

On Fri, 06 Feb 2015 04:44:02 +0000, aplumbernamedlee
wrote:

replying to George, aplumbernamedlee wrote:
george wrote:

Because PEX isn't a hose. It is a permanent plumbing system which
frequently is concealed. Crimp connections produce reliable and
repeatable results.

Now that's about the dumbest thing I've ever heard! It's a damned piece
of poly hose! Don't tell anyone what you think...text it for yourselves!
Hose clamps don't provide even pressure, Pex is made for a clamp etc. are
about as stupid a response and anyone can write! Just put a 10 cent hose
clamp on a piece of pex & a elbow fitting and see for yourselves! Any
engineer worth a damn will try it and then write about it instead of
spouting some inane response about what they think! And in case you're
wondering...everyone else all over the world uses hose clamps with pex and
has been doing so longer than we've had Pex! Don't forget when pex was
introduced here no self respecting plumber would even consider using pex
and it was badmouthed from here to Boston!
An normal hose clamp is barely adequate for a soft hose. A full
circle clamp might be acceptable. Full circle hose clamps are
available at good automotive supply houses labeled as fuel injection
hose clamps.

What if you heated the pex before putting on a hose clamp?

On 5/28/2020 6:56 PM, wrote:
What if you heated the pex before putting on a hose clamp?


For what purpose?

these posts are quite dated and I'm sure sooner or later one of you have likely tested some if not all of these theories....if not, rest easy tonight in the knowledge that I have!
1. PEX + average run of the mill hose clamps = eventual disastrous consequences.
2. PEX does not behave like normal rubber or plastic tubing when heat is used on it. Mine became very brittle and unworkable to any successful application.
3. PEX fittings are pricey but worth every cent in any and all applications I've blindly jumped into thinking I "knew" I could fix without consulting a professional. (push to connect removable are a godsend for ppl like me)
4. PEX crimp rings are very affordable and the tools are vital if you want peace of mind knowing that line running the length of your home thru thousands of dollars worth of potential "oops" repairs is firmly in place and ain't going anywhere.

I don't think my horror stories are necessary but if needed just shoot me a message lol

--
For full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...ps-260362-.htm