Hi all,

been collecting quotes on A/C installs for the house; all appear to be
coming in at about the same price but three installers quoted on either
Carrier or Trane, and one quoted on Goodman which I've never heard of.
Warranty is actually better on the Goodman but am curious about comments
on reliability, durability, parts availability of all brands (and
Ruud/Rheem as well, if anyone cares to share.) The installer that I'm
leaning towards just because of initial impression is spec'ing a Trane
unit, 14 SEER which he says provides more efficiency (duh) as well as a
better warranty than the 13 SEER at slight additional cost. comments?

These are all for 2.5 ton residential units to retrofit to an existing
forced-air heating system. Likely will be adding some kind of
filtration (there is currently none other than the foam dirt catcher in
the existing furnace, which is a rather old Ruud high efficiency gas
unit.) Not sure if just cutting in a regular replaceable filter is the
way to go, or if the extra cost for electronic is worth it. Comments
here would be appreciated as well.

thanks,

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Nate Nagel wrote:

Hi all,

been collecting quotes on A/C installs for the house; all appear to be
coming in at about the same price but three installers quoted on either
Carrier or Trane, and one quoted on Goodman which I've never heard of.
Warranty is actually better on the Goodman but am curious about comments
on reliability, durability, parts availability of all brands (and
Ruud/Rheem as well, if anyone cares to share.) The installer that I'm
leaning towards just because of initial impression is spec'ing a Trane
unit, 14 SEER which he says provides more efficiency (duh) as well as a
better warranty than the 13 SEER at slight additional cost. comments?

These are all for 2.5 ton residential units to retrofit to an existing
forced-air heating system. Likely will be adding some kind of
filtration (there is currently none other than the foam dirt catcher in
the existing furnace, which is a rather old Ruud high efficiency gas
unit.) Not sure if just cutting in a regular replaceable filter is the
way to go, or if the extra cost for electronic is worth it. Comments
here would be appreciated as well.

thanks,

nate

These days they probably all come off the same line in China.

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

Nate Nagel wrote:
Hi all,

been collecting quotes on A/C installs for the house; all appear to be
coming in at about the same price but three installers quoted on either
Carrier or Trane, and one quoted on Goodman which I've never heard of.
Warranty is actually better on the Goodman but am curious about comments
on reliability, durability, parts availability of all brands (and
Ruud/Rheem as well, if anyone cares to share.) The installer that I'm
leaning towards just because of initial impression is spec'ing a Trane
unit, 14 SEER which he says provides more efficiency (duh) as well as a
better warranty than the 13 SEER at slight additional cost. comments?

These are all for 2.5 ton residential units to retrofit to an existing
forced-air heating system. Likely will be adding some kind of
filtration (there is currently none other than the foam dirt catcher in
the existing furnace, which is a rather old Ruud high efficiency gas
unit.) Not sure if just cutting in a regular replaceable filter is the
way to go, or if the extra cost for electronic is worth it. Comments
here would be appreciated as well.

thanks,

nate


I am not an authority on AC's, but I replaced my two Rheem units last
year after 30 years with two more Rheem units. I have gotten very good
service from them and most who have them think highly of them. Also, I
believe they are made in Fort Smith, Ark. for what it is worth.

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...
Hi all,

been collecting quotes on A/C installs for the house; all appear to be
coming in at about the same price but three installers quoted on either
Carrier or Trane, and one quoted on Goodman which I've never heard of.
Warranty is actually better on the Goodman but am curious about comments
on reliability, durability, parts availability of all brands (and
Ruud/Rheem as well, if anyone cares to share.) The installer that I'm
leaning towards just because of initial impression is spec'ing a Trane
unit, 14 SEER which he says provides more efficiency (duh) as well as a
better warranty than the 13 SEER at slight additional cost. comments?


Equipment is only as good as the installer.
Warranty is only as good as the company backing it.

In other words, find the best company with the best installer.
Find one that will do a manual J (load calc) to properly size the equipment.
One that will also do a manual D to insure your ducting is adequate for
proper operation.


These are all for 2.5 ton residential units to retrofit to an existing
forced-air heating system. Likely will be adding some kind of
filtration (there is currently none other than the foam dirt catcher in
the existing furnace, which is a rather old Ruud high efficiency gas
unit.) Not sure if just cutting in a regular replaceable filter is the
way to go, or if the extra cost for electronic is worth it. Comments
here would be appreciated as well.


I would install a media type filter over the electronic.
The only way I would want an electronic is if someone had allergies.

"These days they probably all come off the same line in China."

not true, Carrier , made by unitary products group in indianapolis indiana
Trane, American Standard made in Tyler Texas
Goodman Mfg , made in Houston texas

all three have pros and cons , the best furnace improperly installed will last
half as long as the poorest furnace properly installed ,

read kjpros post



CJT wrote:
Nate Nagel wrote:

On Sep 25, 2:36 am, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:
"Nate Nagel" wrote in message

...

Hi all,

been collecting quotes on A/C installs for the house; all appear to be
coming in at about the same price but three installers quoted on either
Carrier or Trane, and one quoted on Goodman which I've never heard of.
Warranty is actually better on the Goodman but am curious about comments
on reliability, durability, parts availability of all brands (and
Ruud/Rheem as well, if anyone cares to share.) The installer that I'm
leaning towards just because of initial impression is spec'ing a Trane
unit, 14 SEER which he says provides more efficiency (duh) as well as a
better warranty than the 13 SEER at slight additional cost. comments?

Equipment is only as good as the installer.
Warranty is only as good as the company backing it.

In other words, find the best company with the best installer.
Find one that will do a manual J (load calc) to properly size the equipment.
One that will also do a manual D to insure your ducting is adequate for
proper operation.


Only the one installer did any calcs at all. The others just looked
at the house and immediately quoted on a 2.5 ton unit, except for one
who quoted on a 2 ton. This is part of the reason that I'm leaning
towards this one installer.

These are all for 2.5 ton residential units to retrofit to an existing
forced-air heating system. Likely will be adding some kind of
filtration (there is currently none other than the foam dirt catcher in
the existing furnace, which is a rather old Ruud high efficiency gas
unit.) Not sure if just cutting in a regular replaceable filter is the
way to go, or if the extra cost for electronic is worth it. Comments
here would be appreciated as well.

I would install a media type filter over the electronic.
The only way I would want an electronic is if someone had allergies.

Well, SWMBO does have some allergies and also the installer that
actually did calcs mentioned that the ductwork was "marginal" and
claimed that it would be better to go with either no filter at all or
else electronic because he didn't want to restrict the airflow with a
media filter. does this make sense? It kind of did to me, but I'm a
car guy not a HVAC guy.

nate

On Sep 25, 7:28 am, N8N wrote:
On Sep 25, 2:36 am, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:





"Nate Nagel" wrote in message

...

Hi all,

been collecting quotes on A/C installs for the house; all appear to be
coming in at about the same price but three installers quoted on either
Carrier or Trane, and one quoted on Goodman which I've never heard of.
Warranty is actually better on the Goodman but am curious about comments
on reliability, durability, parts availability of all brands (and
Ruud/Rheem as well, if anyone cares to share.) The installer that I'm
leaning towards just because of initial impression is spec'ing a Trane
unit, 14 SEER which he says provides more efficiency (duh) as well as a
better warranty than the 13 SEER at slight additional cost. comments?

Equipment is only as good as the installer.
Warranty is only as good as the company backing it.

In other words, find the best company with the best installer.
Find one that will do a manual J (load calc) to properly size the equipment.
One that will also do a manual D to insure your ducting is adequate for
proper operation.

Only the one installer did any calcs at all. The others just looked
at the house and immediately quoted on a 2.5 ton unit, except for one
who quoted on a 2 ton. This is part of the reason that I'm leaning
towards this one installer.

These are all for 2.5 ton residential units to retrofit to an existing
forced-air heating system. Likely will be adding some kind of
filtration (there is currently none other than the foam dirt catcher in
the existing furnace, which is a rather old Ruud high efficiency gas
unit.) Not sure if just cutting in a regular replaceable filter is the
way to go, or if the extra cost for electronic is worth it. Comments
here would be appreciated as well.

I would install a media type filter over the electronic.
The only way I would want an electronic is if someone had allergies.

Well, SWMBO does have some allergies and also the installer that
actually did calcs mentioned that the ductwork was "marginal" and
claimed that it would be better to go with either no filter at all or
else electronic because he didn't want to restrict the airflow with a
media filter. does this make sense? It kind of did to me, but I'm a
car guy not a HVAC guy.

nate- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Goodman had the lowest ratings on a consumer reports long term pole.

N8N wrote:

On Sep 25, 2:36 am, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:
"Nate Nagel" wrote in message

...

Hi all,

been collecting quotes on A/C installs for the house; all appear to be
coming in at about the same price but three installers quoted on either
Carrier or Trane, and one quoted on Goodman which I've never heard of.
Warranty is actually better on the Goodman but am curious about comments
on reliability, durability, parts availability of all brands (and
Ruud/Rheem as well, if anyone cares to share.) The installer that I'm
leaning towards just because of initial impression is spec'ing a Trane
unit, 14 SEER which he says provides more efficiency (duh) as well as a
better warranty than the 13 SEER at slight additional cost. comments?

Equipment is only as good as the installer.
Warranty is only as good as the company backing it.

In other words, find the best company with the best installer.
Find one that will do a manual J (load calc) to properly size the equipment.
One that will also do a manual D to insure your ducting is adequate for
proper operation.


Only the one installer did any calcs at all. The others just looked
at the house and immediately quoted on a 2.5 ton unit, except for one
who quoted on a 2 ton. This is part of the reason that I'm leaning
towards this one installer.

These are all for 2.5 ton residential units to retrofit to an existing
forced-air heating system. Likely will be adding some kind of
filtration (there is currently none other than the foam dirt catcher in
the existing furnace, which is a rather old Ruud high efficiency gas
unit.) Not sure if just cutting in a regular replaceable filter is the
way to go, or if the extra cost for electronic is worth it. Comments
here would be appreciated as well.

I would install a media type filter over the electronic.
The only way I would want an electronic is if someone had allergies.

Well, SWMBO does have some allergies and also the installer that
actually did calcs mentioned that the ductwork was "marginal" and
claimed that it would be better to go with either no filter at all or
else electronic because he didn't want to restrict the airflow with a
media filter. does this make sense? It kind of did to me, but I'm a
car guy not a HVAC guy.

nate

A proper electrostatic precipitator air cleaner will work very well.
They are a bit pricey, but make up for that long term since you just
wash their collector grids and can use about the cheapest pre-filter
that you can get. $15 a pop for the good Filtrete filters adds up
quickly.

As for the part about marginal ductwork, we can't tell from here whether
it truly is marginal, but he is absolutely correct that an electrostatic
precipitator type air cleaner presents very little flow restriction,
essentially none compared to a media type filter.

On Sep 25, 10:27 am, "Pete C." wrote:
N8N wrote:

On Sep 25, 2:36 am, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:
"Nate Nagel" wrote in message

...

Hi all,

been collecting quotes on A/C installs for the house; all appear to be
coming in at about the same price but three installers quoted on either
Carrier or Trane, and one quoted on Goodman which I've never heard of.
Warranty is actually better on the Goodman but am curious about comments
on reliability, durability, parts availability of all brands (and
Ruud/Rheem as well, if anyone cares to share.) The installer that I'm
leaning towards just because of initial impression is spec'ing a Trane
unit, 14 SEER which he says provides more efficiency (duh) as well as a
better warranty than the 13 SEER at slight additional cost. comments?

Equipment is only as good as the installer.
Warranty is only as good as the company backing it.

In other words, find the best company with the best installer.
Find one that will do a manual J (load calc) to properly size the equipment.
One that will also do a manual D to insure your ducting is adequate for
proper operation.

Only the one installer did any calcs at all. The others just looked
at the house and immediately quoted on a 2.5 ton unit, except for one
who quoted on a 2 ton. This is part of the reason that I'm leaning
towards this one installer.

These are all for 2.5 ton residential units to retrofit to an existing
forced-air heating system. Likely will be adding some kind of
filtration (there is currently none other than the foam dirt catcher in
the existing furnace, which is a rather old Ruud high efficiency gas
unit.) Not sure if just cutting in a regular replaceable filter is the
way to go, or if the extra cost for electronic is worth it. Comments
here would be appreciated as well.

I would install a media type filter over the electronic.
The only way I would want an electronic is if someone had allergies.

Well, SWMBO does have some allergies and also the installer that
actually did calcs mentioned that the ductwork was "marginal" and
claimed that it would be better to go with either no filter at all or
else electronic because he didn't want to restrict the airflow with a
media filter. does this make sense? It kind of did to me, but I'm a
car guy not a HVAC guy.

nate

A proper electrostatic precipitator air cleaner will work very well.
They are a bit pricey, but make up for that long term since you just
wash their collector grids and can use about the cheapest pre-filter
that you can get. $15 a pop for the good Filtrete filters adds up
quickly.

As for the part about marginal ductwork, we can't tell from here whether
it truly is marginal, but he is absolutely correct that an electrostatic
precipitator type air cleaner presents very little flow restriction,
essentially none compared to a media type filter.

Thanks for all the comments. I do believe him when he says the
ductwork is marginal because I do have to fiddle with the dampers to
get adequate heat upstairs in the wintertime (new grilles/dampers are
on the "to do" list as many of them are bent and/or sticky, and all
are painted over several times) I think where we are at now is SWMBO
is going to call the guy I had a good impression of to requote with a
13 SEER and without the electrostatic, just to get apples-to-apples
comparison with the other installers and if he's in the ballpark go
with him, likely following his initial recommendations as he seemed to
know what he's talking about.

Anyone see a downside to this plan?

nate

in my rental units, i have to say the trane is the most trouble
free overall. with rheem in second. the goodman and others had
electrical component failures after a couple years. this leads me to
belive trane used better electrical components and seem go 20 years
without problems overall. the size of your ductwork has alot to do with
how well a system will work, to small and youll never get the full
efficiency of the unit. for example,my rentals had too small return
ducts , sizing them up correctly made a huge difference.keeping the
outside and inside units clean is also a must for keeping the system
working at peak and long life. i dont have electronic filters,but if
you have allergies they are worth it, but must be kept clean also .
lucas

http://www.minibite.com/america/malone.htm

On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 22:21:08 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:

Hi all,

been collecting quotes on A/C installs for the house; all appear to be
coming in at about the same price but three installers quoted on either
Carrier or Trane, and one quoted on Goodman which I've never heard of.
Warranty is actually better on the Goodman but am curious about comments
on reliability, durability, parts availability of all brands (and
Ruud/Rheem as well, if anyone cares to share.) The installer that I'm
leaning towards just because of initial impression is spec'ing a Trane
unit, 14 SEER which he says provides more efficiency (duh) as well as a
better warranty than the 13 SEER at slight additional cost. comments?

New construction or home improvement? If improvement, look at going
to at least a 15 SEER and take the tax credit to help pay the
difference, along with the additional operating savings.

http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?...pr_tax_credits

I replaced with a Trane and it has been great, however I chose the
installer rather than the brand.

Frank

These are all for 2.5 ton residential units to retrofit to an existing
forced-air heating system. Likely will be adding some kind of
filtration (there is currently none other than the foam dirt catcher in
the existing furnace, which is a rather old Ruud high efficiency gas
unit.) Not sure if just cutting in a regular replaceable filter is the
way to go, or if the extra cost for electronic is worth it. Comments
here would be appreciated as well.

thanks,

nate

N8N wrote:

On Sep 25, 10:27 am, "Pete C." wrote:
N8N wrote:

On Sep 25, 2:36 am, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:
"Nate Nagel" wrote in message

...

Hi all,

been collecting quotes on A/C installs for the house; all appear to be
coming in at about the same price but three installers quoted on either
Carrier or Trane, and one quoted on Goodman which I've never heard of.
Warranty is actually better on the Goodman but am curious about comments
on reliability, durability, parts availability of all brands (and
Ruud/Rheem as well, if anyone cares to share.) The installer that I'm
leaning towards just because of initial impression is spec'ing a Trane
unit, 14 SEER which he says provides more efficiency (duh) as well as a
better warranty than the 13 SEER at slight additional cost. comments?

Equipment is only as good as the installer.
Warranty is only as good as the company backing it.

In other words, find the best company with the best installer.
Find one that will do a manual J (load calc) to properly size the equipment.
One that will also do a manual D to insure your ducting is adequate for
proper operation.

Only the one installer did any calcs at all. The others just looked
at the house and immediately quoted on a 2.5 ton unit, except for one
who quoted on a 2 ton. This is part of the reason that I'm leaning
towards this one installer.

These are all for 2.5 ton residential units to retrofit to an existing
forced-air heating system. Likely will be adding some kind of
filtration (there is currently none other than the foam dirt catcher in
the existing furnace, which is a rather old Ruud high efficiency gas
unit.) Not sure if just cutting in a regular replaceable filter is the
way to go, or if the extra cost for electronic is worth it. Comments
here would be appreciated as well.

I would install a media type filter over the electronic.
The only way I would want an electronic is if someone had allergies.

Well, SWMBO does have some allergies and also the installer that
actually did calcs mentioned that the ductwork was "marginal" and
claimed that it would be better to go with either no filter at all or
else electronic because he didn't want to restrict the airflow with a
media filter. does this make sense? It kind of did to me, but I'm a
car guy not a HVAC guy.

nate

A proper electrostatic precipitator air cleaner will work very well.
They are a bit pricey, but make up for that long term since you just
wash their collector grids and can use about the cheapest pre-filter
that you can get. $15 a pop for the good Filtrete filters adds up
quickly.

As for the part about marginal ductwork, we can't tell from here whether
it truly is marginal, but he is absolutely correct that an electrostatic
precipitator type air cleaner presents very little flow restriction,
essentially none compared to a media type filter.

Thanks for all the comments. I do believe him when he says the
ductwork is marginal because I do have to fiddle with the dampers to
get adequate heat upstairs in the wintertime (new grilles/dampers are
on the "to do" list as many of them are bent and/or sticky, and all
are painted over several times) I think where we are at now is SWMBO
is going to call the guy I had a good impression of to requote with a
13 SEER and without the electrostatic, just to get apples-to-apples
comparison with the other installers and if he's in the ballpark go
with him, likely following his initial recommendations as he seemed to
know what he's talking about.

Anyone see a downside to this plan?

nate

Sounds reasonable to me. Finding an HVAC company you can have some trust
in isn't very easy. I'll be looking for one in the not that distant
future myself and am not looking forward to it, particularly since I'm
rather picky. Also, an EP filter is on my list for when I replace my
system.

Pete C. wrote:
N8N wrote:

On Sep 25, 10:27 am, "Pete C." wrote:

N8N wrote:


On Sep 25, 2:36 am, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message

...

Hi all,

been collecting quotes on A/C installs for the house; all appear to be
coming in at about the same price but three installers quoted on either
Carrier or Trane, and one quoted on Goodman which I've never heard of.
Warranty is actually better on the Goodman but am curious about comments
on reliability, durability, parts availability of all brands (and
Ruud/Rheem as well, if anyone cares to share.) The installer that I'm
leaning towards just because of initial impression is spec'ing a Trane
unit, 14 SEER which he says provides more efficiency (duh) as well as a
better warranty than the 13 SEER at slight additional cost. comments?

Equipment is only as good as the installer.
Warranty is only as good as the company backing it.

In other words, find the best company with the best installer.
Find one that will do a manual J (load calc) to properly size the equipment.
One that will also do a manual D to insure your ducting is adequate for
proper operation.

Only the one installer did any calcs at all. The others just looked
at the house and immediately quoted on a 2.5 ton unit, except for one
who quoted on a 2 ton. This is part of the reason that I'm leaning
towards this one installer.

These are all for 2.5 ton residential units to retrofit to an existing
forced-air heating system. Likely will be adding some kind of
filtration (there is currently none other than the foam dirt catcher in
the existing furnace, which is a rather old Ruud high efficiency gas
unit.) Not sure if just cutting in a regular replaceable filter is the
way to go, or if the extra cost for electronic is worth it. Comments
here would be appreciated as well.

I would install a media type filter over the electronic.
The only way I would want an electronic is if someone had allergies.

Well, SWMBO does have some allergies and also the installer that
actually did calcs mentioned that the ductwork was "marginal" and
claimed that it would be better to go with either no filter at all or
else electronic because he didn't want to restrict the airflow with a
media filter. does this make sense? It kind of did to me, but I'm a
car guy not a HVAC guy.

nate

A proper electrostatic precipitator air cleaner will work very well.
They are a bit pricey, but make up for that long term since you just
wash their collector grids and can use about the cheapest pre-filter
that you can get. $15 a pop for the good Filtrete filters adds up
quickly.

As for the part about marginal ductwork, we can't tell from here whether
it truly is marginal, but he is absolutely correct that an electrostatic
precipitator type air cleaner presents very little flow restriction,
essentially none compared to a media type filter.

Thanks for all the comments. I do believe him when he says the
ductwork is marginal because I do have to fiddle with the dampers to
get adequate heat upstairs in the wintertime (new grilles/dampers are
on the "to do" list as many of them are bent and/or sticky, and all
are painted over several times) I think where we are at now is SWMBO
is going to call the guy I had a good impression of to requote with a
13 SEER and without the electrostatic, just to get apples-to-apples
comparison with the other installers and if he's in the ballpark go
with him, likely following his initial recommendations as he seemed to
know what he's talking about.

Anyone see a downside to this plan?

nate


Sounds reasonable to me. Finding an HVAC company you can have some trust
in isn't very easy. I'll be looking for one in the not that distant
future myself and am not looking forward to it, particularly since I'm
rather picky. Also, an EP filter is on my list for when I replace my
system.

Well I got a call from the girlie; comparing apples to apples the guy I
liked is actually *cheaper* than all but one of the other quotes. So I
guess now the decision is which options to get. The 14 SEER unit was an
extra $400, and the air cleaner was $1200.

I don't know for 100% sure (I'll ask,) but I believe the units he is
quoting are the Trane XR13 and XL14i. He wants to use a Honeywell
electrostatic unit as he claims that the Trane equivalent is a new
product with an unproven track record, and he says that the Honeywell
has a good record and has been on the market for many years.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Nate Nagel wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

Sounds reasonable to me. Finding an HVAC company you can have some trust
in isn't very easy. I'll be looking for one in the not that distant
future myself and am not looking forward to it, particularly since I'm
rather picky. Also, an EP filter is on my list for when I replace my
system.

Well I got a call from the girlie; comparing apples to apples the guy I
liked is actually *cheaper* than all but one of the other quotes. So I
guess now the decision is which options to get. The 14 SEER unit was an
extra $400, and the air cleaner was $1200.

I don't know for 100% sure (I'll ask,) but I believe the units he is
quoting are the Trane XR13 and XL14i. He wants to use a Honeywell
electrostatic unit as he claims that the Trane equivalent is a new
product with an unproven track record, and he says that the Honeywell
has a good record and has been on the market for many years.

EPs in general have been around a long time and are really simple units,
basically a high voltage power supply and a collector grid. The Trane EP
may be new and unproven, but I'd have little concern due to the
simplicity and well known technology. We had a couple Honeywell EP units
for some office space where I used to work and the worked well. The last
time I looked, I think I saw decent EP units in the $600-700 range, so
perhaps nudge him down a bit on that item. At around $600 the unit will
pay for itself in about 10 years vs. the decent Filtrete filters.

"N8N" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Sep 25, 10:27 am, "Pete C." wrote:
N8N wrote:

On Sep 25, 2:36 am, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:
"Nate Nagel" wrote in message

...

Hi all,

been collecting quotes on A/C installs for the house; all appear
to be
coming in at about the same price but three installers quoted on
either
Carrier or Trane, and one quoted on Goodman which I've never heard
of.
Warranty is actually better on the Goodman but am curious about
comments
on reliability, durability, parts availability of all brands (and
Ruud/Rheem as well, if anyone cares to share.) The installer that
I'm
leaning towards just because of initial impression is spec'ing a
Trane
unit, 14 SEER which he says provides more efficiency (duh) as well
as a
better warranty than the 13 SEER at slight additional cost.
comments?

Equipment is only as good as the installer.
Warranty is only as good as the company backing it.

In other words, find the best company with the best installer.
Find one that will do a manual J (load calc) to properly size the
equipment.
One that will also do a manual D to insure your ducting is adequate
for
proper operation.

Only the one installer did any calcs at all. The others just looked
at the house and immediately quoted on a 2.5 ton unit, except for one
who quoted on a 2 ton. This is part of the reason that I'm leaning
towards this one installer.

These are all for 2.5 ton residential units to retrofit to an
existing
forced-air heating system. Likely will be adding some kind of
filtration (there is currently none other than the foam dirt
catcher in
the existing furnace, which is a rather old Ruud high efficiency
gas
unit.) Not sure if just cutting in a regular replaceable filter
is the
way to go, or if the extra cost for electronic is worth it.
Comments
here would be appreciated as well.

I would install a media type filter over the electronic.
The only way I would want an electronic is if someone had allergies.

Well, SWMBO does have some allergies and also the installer that
actually did calcs mentioned that the ductwork was "marginal" and
claimed that it would be better to go with either no filter at all or
else electronic because he didn't want to restrict the airflow with a
media filter. does this make sense? It kind of did to me, but I'm a
car guy not a HVAC guy.

nate

A proper electrostatic precipitator air cleaner will work very well.
They are a bit pricey, but make up for that long term since you just
wash their collector grids and can use about the cheapest pre-filter
that you can get. $15 a pop for the good Filtrete filters adds up
quickly.

As for the part about marginal ductwork, we can't tell from here whether
it truly is marginal, but he is absolutely correct that an electrostatic
precipitator type air cleaner presents very little flow restriction,
essentially none compared to a media type filter.

Thanks for all the comments. I do believe him when he says the
ductwork is marginal because I do have to fiddle with the dampers to
get adequate heat upstairs in the wintertime (new grilles/dampers are
on the "to do" list as many of them are bent and/or sticky, and all
are painted over several times) I think where we are at now is SWMBO
is going to call the guy I had a good impression of to requote with a
13 SEER and without the electrostatic, just to get apples-to-apples
comparison with the other installers and if he's in the ballpark go
with him, likely following his initial recommendations as he seemed to
know what he's talking about.

Anyone see a downside to this plan?


I'm not a big fan of electronic air cleaners...

See what modifications he can do to the ducting to allow for the media
filter.
The electronic is a pain to clean and most people end up not doing it as
often as they should.

Also remember, this is something you'll be living with and is the system
that will maintain your comfort. So a few extra dollars now can save a lot
of headaches and compromised comfort.

"The Freon Cowboy" wrote in message
...
"These days they probably all come off the same line in China."

not true, Carrier , made by unitary products group in indianapolis indiana


Minor glitch... it's UT (United Technologies) not UPG.
UPG is the mother of Coleman, Evcon, York, etc...


Trane, American Standard made in Tyler Texas
Goodman Mfg , made in Houston texas

all three have pros and cons , the best furnace improperly installed will
last
half as long as the poorest furnace properly installed ,

read kjpros post



CJT wrote:
Nate Nagel wrote:

thanks kj , you can tell i havent installed any recently ;-)

still , not a one of em comes from china .

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:
"The Freon Cowboy" wrote in
...

"The Freon Cowboy" wrote in message
m...

still , not a one of em comes from china .


You'll have to excuse CJT, he coughed.

The Freon Cowboy wrote:

"These days (many of the components?) /// probably come off the same line in China."

not true, Carrier , made (assembled?) by unitary products group in indianapolis indiana
Trane, American Standard made in (assembled?) Tyler Texas
Goodman Mfg, made (assembled?) in Houston texas

all three have pros and cons , the best furnace improperly installed will last
half as long as the poorest furnace properly installed ,

read kjpros post

CJT wrote:


Nate Nagel wrote:


Hi Cowboy,
Rewrote the above - your response?
Could it be that the components are merely assembled at those locations?
The question ought to be where are the components mfg'ered?
http://www.udarrell.com/proper_cfm_b...syste ms.html

The installation is the key. - udarrell

--
WISDOM PRINCIPLE DIRECTED EMPOWERMENT COMMUNICATIONS -
THE REAL POLITICAL ISSUES and WISDOM BASED PEOPLE EMPOWERMENT

http://www.udarrell.com/ (Updated)
How much can your communication content be worth?

http://www.udarrell.com/my_pages2.htm
(* My Airconditioning Links, Hunting Shooting, Angus Cattle.)
Reality Is Not An Easy Thing To Be Confronted With, or to Accept.

ransley wrote:

On Sep 25, 7:28 am, N8N wrote:


On Sep 25, 2:36 am, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


Goodman had the lowest ratings on a consumer reports long term pole.


I subscribe to CR, however, Consumers Report is crap when it comes to
Central AC equipment.
The later model Goodman equipment is as good as any of the other brands
& usually better equipment for the initial cost along with a warranty at
the top of the industry.

I would buy the 14-SEER with the better components - Copeland Scroll
compressor & Thermostatic Expansion Valve (TXV).

http://www.udarrell.com/aircondition...l_systems.html


- udarrell

--
WISDOM PRINCIPLE DIRECTED EMPOWERMENT COMMUNICATIONS -
THE REAL POLITICAL ISSUES and WISDOM BASED PEOPLE EMPOWERMENT

http://www.udarrell.com/ (Updated)
How much can your communication content be worth? Even Trillions?

http://www.udarrell.com/my_pages2.htm
(* My Airconditioning Links, Hunting Shooting, Angus Cattle.)


Reality Is Not An Easy Thing To Be Confronted With, or to Accept.

Ashton Crusher wrote:

On Mon, 24 Sep 2007 22:21:08 -0400, Nate Nagel
wrote:


I've always bought the cheapest I can get. Not that I buy very many
but I've put a few on rental houses over the years. Even the cheapest
have lasted at least 20 years here in Phoenix. I have one house with
a Carrier unit that the original builder installed on it back in 1971.
Most recently, a couple months ago, I got estimates for a new unit for
another house. The Goodman (and installer) were about half the price
of the Trane (from a different installer). Looking at the Goodman I
didn't see any obvious difference between it and an other unit I've
ever eyeballed. And it used a Copeland scroll compressor which I've
heard is a very good compressor.


I am a retired HVAC/R contractor & have NO dog in this hunt.
I sold different Brands & did service work on all Brands.
I always look past the looks.

That is my point, the new Goodman units with the Copeland Scroll
compressor coupled with a TXV metering device is a lot of AC for that
initial investment with a great warranty. Coupled with a first rate
install it will transfer heat from your home with the best on the market.
I also prefer R-22 refrigerant systems, I believe, in a few years, new
refrigerants will be developed.

If you want PayBack, ultra high SEER is overrated!
http://www.udarrell.com/aircondition...l_systems.html


DISCLAIMER:
I assume NO responsibility for the USE of any information I post on any
of my Web pages, in E-Mails or News Groups.
All HVAC/R work should always be done by a licensed Contractor &
properly licensed Techs! This information is only placed on these pages
primarily for your understanding & communication with contractors &
techs. This information is also for the edification of Contractors and
Techs. Never attempt anything that you are NOT competent to do in a SAFE
manner! I am NOT liable for your screw-ups, you are liable for what you
do! - udarrell

--
WISDOM PRINCIPLE DIRECTED EMPOWERMENT COMMUNICATIONS -
THE REAL POLITICAL ISSUES and WISDOM BASED PEOPLE EMPOWERMENT

http://www.udarrell.com/ (Updated)
How much can your communication content be worth? Even Trillions?

http://www.udarrell.com/my_pages2.htm
(* My Airconditioning Links, Hunting Shooting, Angus Cattle.)
Reality Is Not An Easy Thing To Be Confronted With, or to Accept.

"kjpro "@ usenet.com wrote:

"N8N" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Sep 25, 10:27 am, "Pete C." wrote:
N8N wrote:

On Sep 25, 2:36 am, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:
"Nate Nagel" wrote in message

...

Hi all,

been collecting quotes on A/C installs for the house; all appear
to be
coming in at about the same price but three installers quoted on
either
Carrier or Trane, and one quoted on Goodman which I've never heard
of.
Warranty is actually better on the Goodman but am curious about
comments
on reliability, durability, parts availability of all brands (and
Ruud/Rheem as well, if anyone cares to share.) The installer that
I'm
leaning towards just because of initial impression is spec'ing a
Trane
unit, 14 SEER which he says provides more efficiency (duh) as well
as a
better warranty than the 13 SEER at slight additional cost.
comments?

Equipment is only as good as the installer.
Warranty is only as good as the company backing it.

In other words, find the best company with the best installer.
Find one that will do a manual J (load calc) to properly size the
equipment.
One that will also do a manual D to insure your ducting is adequate
for
proper operation.

Only the one installer did any calcs at all. The others just looked
at the house and immediately quoted on a 2.5 ton unit, except for one
who quoted on a 2 ton. This is part of the reason that I'm leaning
towards this one installer.

These are all for 2.5 ton residential units to retrofit to an
existing
forced-air heating system. Likely will be adding some kind of
filtration (there is currently none other than the foam dirt
catcher in
the existing furnace, which is a rather old Ruud high efficiency
gas
unit.) Not sure if just cutting in a regular replaceable filter
is the
way to go, or if the extra cost for electronic is worth it.
Comments
here would be appreciated as well.

I would install a media type filter over the electronic.
The only way I would want an electronic is if someone had allergies.

Well, SWMBO does have some allergies and also the installer that
actually did calcs mentioned that the ductwork was "marginal" and
claimed that it would be better to go with either no filter at all or
else electronic because he didn't want to restrict the airflow with a
media filter. does this make sense? It kind of did to me, but I'm a
car guy not a HVAC guy.

nate

A proper electrostatic precipitator air cleaner will work very well.
They are a bit pricey, but make up for that long term since you just
wash their collector grids and can use about the cheapest pre-filter
that you can get. $15 a pop for the good Filtrete filters adds up
quickly.

As for the part about marginal ductwork, we can't tell from here whether
it truly is marginal, but he is absolutely correct that an electrostatic
precipitator type air cleaner presents very little flow restriction,
essentially none compared to a media type filter.

Thanks for all the comments. I do believe him when he says the
ductwork is marginal because I do have to fiddle with the dampers to
get adequate heat upstairs in the wintertime (new grilles/dampers are
on the "to do" list as many of them are bent and/or sticky, and all
are painted over several times) I think where we are at now is SWMBO
is going to call the guy I had a good impression of to requote with a
13 SEER and without the electrostatic, just to get apples-to-apples
comparison with the other installers and if he's in the ballpark go
with him, likely following his initial recommendations as he seemed to
know what he's talking about.

Anyone see a downside to this plan?

I'm not a big fan of electronic air cleaners...

See what modifications he can do to the ducting to allow for the media
filter.
The electronic is a pain to clean and most people end up not doing it as
often as they should.

Also remember, this is something you'll be living with and is the system
that will maintain your comfort. So a few extra dollars now can save a lot
of headaches and compromised comfort.

It's a pain to throw the grids in the dishwasher??? The only pain I can
see is it the EP unit is located in an inaccessible location, and the
same issue applies with media type as well. Saving the $15 a pop for
good media filters by using the washable EP grids will rapidly make up
for the cost of the EP.

"udarrell" wrote in message
. net...
The Freon Cowboy wrote:

"These days (many of the components?) /// probably come off the same line
in China."

not true, Carrier , made (assembled?) by unitary products group in
indianapolis indiana
Trane, American Standard made in (assembled?) Tyler Texas
Goodman Mfg, made (assembled?) in Houston texas

all three have pros and cons , the best furnace improperly installed will
last
half as long as the poorest furnace properly installed ,

read kjpros post

CJT wrote:


Nate Nagel wrote:


Hi Cowboy,
Rewrote the above - your response?
Could it be that the components are merely assembled at those locations?
The question ought to be where are the components mfg'ered?


UT coils... Mexico :-(

"Pete C." wrote in message
...
"kjpro "@ usenet.com wrote:

"N8N" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Sep 25, 10:27 am, "Pete C." wrote:
N8N wrote:

On Sep 25, 2:36 am, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:
"Nate Nagel" wrote in message

...

Hi all,

been collecting quotes on A/C installs for the house; all
appear
to be
coming in at about the same price but three installers quoted
on
either
Carrier or Trane, and one quoted on Goodman which I've never
heard
of.
Warranty is actually better on the Goodman but am curious
about
comments
on reliability, durability, parts availability of all brands
(and
Ruud/Rheem as well, if anyone cares to share.) The installer
that
I'm
leaning towards just because of initial impression is spec'ing
a
Trane
unit, 14 SEER which he says provides more efficiency (duh) as
well
as a
better warranty than the 13 SEER at slight additional cost.
comments?

Equipment is only as good as the installer.
Warranty is only as good as the company backing it.

In other words, find the best company with the best installer.
Find one that will do a manual J (load calc) to properly size
the
equipment.
One that will also do a manual D to insure your ducting is
adequate
for
proper operation.

Only the one installer did any calcs at all. The others just
looked
at the house and immediately quoted on a 2.5 ton unit, except for
one
who quoted on a 2 ton. This is part of the reason that I'm
leaning
towards this one installer.

These are all for 2.5 ton residential units to retrofit to an
existing
forced-air heating system. Likely will be adding some kind of
filtration (there is currently none other than the foam dirt
catcher in
the existing furnace, which is a rather old Ruud high
efficiency
gas
unit.) Not sure if just cutting in a regular replaceable
filter
is the
way to go, or if the extra cost for electronic is worth it.
Comments
here would be appreciated as well.

I would install a media type filter over the electronic.
The only way I would want an electronic is if someone had
allergies.

Well, SWMBO does have some allergies and also the installer that
actually did calcs mentioned that the ductwork was "marginal" and
claimed that it would be better to go with either no filter at all
or
else electronic because he didn't want to restrict the airflow
with a
media filter. does this make sense? It kind of did to me, but
I'm a
car guy not a HVAC guy.

nate

A proper electrostatic precipitator air cleaner will work very well.
They are a bit pricey, but make up for that long term since you just
wash their collector grids and can use about the cheapest pre-filter
that you can get. $15 a pop for the good Filtrete filters adds up
quickly.

As for the part about marginal ductwork, we can't tell from here
whether
it truly is marginal, but he is absolutely correct that an
electrostatic
precipitator type air cleaner presents very little flow restriction,
essentially none compared to a media type filter.

Thanks for all the comments. I do believe him when he says the
ductwork is marginal because I do have to fiddle with the dampers to
get adequate heat upstairs in the wintertime (new grilles/dampers are
on the "to do" list as many of them are bent and/or sticky, and all
are painted over several times) I think where we are at now is SWMBO
is going to call the guy I had a good impression of to requote with a
13 SEER and without the electrostatic, just to get apples-to-apples
comparison with the other installers and if he's in the ballpark go
with him, likely following his initial recommendations as he seemed to
know what he's talking about.

Anyone see a downside to this plan?

I'm not a big fan of electronic air cleaners...

See what modifications he can do to the ducting to allow for the media
filter.
The electronic is a pain to clean and most people end up not doing it as
often as they should.

Also remember, this is something you'll be living with and is the system
that will maintain your comfort. So a few extra dollars now can save a
lot
of headaches and compromised comfort.

It's a pain to throw the grids in the dishwasher???


Must be as most homeowners NEVER clean them!!!

"kjpro "@ usenet.com wrote:

"Pete C." wrote in message
...
"kjpro "@ usenet.com wrote:

"N8N" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Sep 25, 10:27 am, "Pete C." wrote:
N8N wrote:

On Sep 25, 2:36 am, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:
"Nate Nagel" wrote in message

...

Hi all,

been collecting quotes on A/C installs for the house; all
appear
to be
coming in at about the same price but three installers quoted
on
either
Carrier or Trane, and one quoted on Goodman which I've never
heard
of.
Warranty is actually better on the Goodman but am curious
about
comments
on reliability, durability, parts availability of all brands
(and
Ruud/Rheem as well, if anyone cares to share.) The installer
that
I'm
leaning towards just because of initial impression is spec'ing
a
Trane
unit, 14 SEER which he says provides more efficiency (duh) as
well
as a
better warranty than the 13 SEER at slight additional cost.
comments?

Equipment is only as good as the installer.
Warranty is only as good as the company backing it.

In other words, find the best company with the best installer.
Find one that will do a manual J (load calc) to properly size
the
equipment.
One that will also do a manual D to insure your ducting is
adequate
for
proper operation.

Only the one installer did any calcs at all. The others just
looked
at the house and immediately quoted on a 2.5 ton unit, except for
one
who quoted on a 2 ton. This is part of the reason that I'm
leaning
towards this one installer.

These are all for 2.5 ton residential units to retrofit to an
existing
forced-air heating system. Likely will be adding some kind of
filtration (there is currently none other than the foam dirt
catcher in
the existing furnace, which is a rather old Ruud high
efficiency
gas
unit.) Not sure if just cutting in a regular replaceable
filter
is the
way to go, or if the extra cost for electronic is worth it.
Comments
here would be appreciated as well.

I would install a media type filter over the electronic.
The only way I would want an electronic is if someone had
allergies.

Well, SWMBO does have some allergies and also the installer that
actually did calcs mentioned that the ductwork was "marginal" and
claimed that it would be better to go with either no filter at all
or
else electronic because he didn't want to restrict the airflow
with a
media filter. does this make sense? It kind of did to me, but
I'm a
car guy not a HVAC guy.

nate

A proper electrostatic precipitator air cleaner will work very well.
They are a bit pricey, but make up for that long term since you just
wash their collector grids and can use about the cheapest pre-filter
that you can get. $15 a pop for the good Filtrete filters adds up
quickly.

As for the part about marginal ductwork, we can't tell from here
whether
it truly is marginal, but he is absolutely correct that an
electrostatic
precipitator type air cleaner presents very little flow restriction,
essentially none compared to a media type filter.

Thanks for all the comments. I do believe him when he says the
ductwork is marginal because I do have to fiddle with the dampers to
get adequate heat upstairs in the wintertime (new grilles/dampers are
on the "to do" list as many of them are bent and/or sticky, and all
are painted over several times) I think where we are at now is SWMBO
is going to call the guy I had a good impression of to requote with a
13 SEER and without the electrostatic, just to get apples-to-apples
comparison with the other installers and if he's in the ballpark go
with him, likely following his initial recommendations as he seemed to
know what he's talking about.

Anyone see a downside to this plan?

I'm not a big fan of electronic air cleaners...

See what modifications he can do to the ducting to allow for the media
filter.
The electronic is a pain to clean and most people end up not doing it as
often as they should.

Also remember, this is something you'll be living with and is the system
that will maintain your comfort. So a few extra dollars now can save a
lot
of headaches and compromised comfort.

It's a pain to throw the grids in the dishwasher???

Must be as most homeowners NEVER clean them!!!

That's a function of our failing schools that aren't teaching any "life"
skills. Same reason people don't know how to calculate the mileage their
yuppmobiles get.

On Sep 27, 1:16 am, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:
"Pete C." wrote in message

...





"kjpro "@ usenet.com wrote:

"N8N" wrote in message
roups.com...
On Sep 25, 10:27 am, "Pete C." wrote:
N8N wrote:

On Sep 25, 2:36 am, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:
"Nate Nagel" wrote in message

...

Hi all,

been collecting quotes on A/C installs for the house; all
appear
to be
coming in at about the same price but three installers quoted
on
either
Carrier or Trane, and one quoted on Goodman which I've never
heard
of.
Warranty is actually better on the Goodman but am curious
about
comments
on reliability, durability, parts availability of all brands
(and
Ruud/Rheem as well, if anyone cares to share.) The installer
that
I'm
leaning towards just because of initial impression is spec'ing
a
Trane
unit, 14 SEER which he says provides more efficiency (duh) as
well
as a
better warranty than the 13 SEER at slight additional cost.
comments?

Equipment is only as good as the installer.
Warranty is only as good as the company backing it.

In other words, find the best company with the best installer.
Find one that will do a manual J (load calc) to properly size
the
equipment.
One that will also do a manual D to insure your ducting is
adequate
for
proper operation.

Only the one installer did any calcs at all. The others just
looked
at the house and immediately quoted on a 2.5 ton unit, except for
one
who quoted on a 2 ton. This is part of the reason that I'm
leaning
towards this one installer.

These are all for 2.5 ton residential units to retrofit to an
existing
forced-air heating system. Likely will be adding some kind of
filtration (there is currently none other than the foam dirt
catcher in
the existing furnace, which is a rather old Ruud high
efficiency
gas
unit.) Not sure if just cutting in a regular replaceable
filter
is the
way to go, or if the extra cost for electronic is worth it.
Comments
here would be appreciated as well.

I would install a media type filter over the electronic.
The only way I would want an electronic is if someone had
allergies.

Well, SWMBO does have some allergies and also the installer that
actually did calcs mentioned that the ductwork was "marginal" and
claimed that it would be better to go with either no filter at all
or
else electronic because he didn't want to restrict the airflow
with a
media filter. does this make sense? It kind of did to me, but
I'm a
car guy not a HVAC guy.

nate

A proper electrostatic precipitator air cleaner will work very well.
They are a bit pricey, but make up for that long term since you just
wash their collector grids and can use about the cheapest pre-filter
that you can get. $15 a pop for the good Filtrete filters adds up
quickly.

As for the part about marginal ductwork, we can't tell from here
whether
it truly is marginal, but he is absolutely correct that an
electrostatic
precipitator type air cleaner presents very little flow restriction,
essentially none compared to a media type filter.

Thanks for all the comments. I do believe him when he says the
ductwork is marginal because I do have to fiddle with the dampers to
get adequate heat upstairs in the wintertime (new grilles/dampers are
on the "to do" list as many of them are bent and/or sticky, and all
are painted over several times) I think where we are at now is SWMBO
is going to call the guy I had a good impression of to requote with a
13 SEER and without the electrostatic, just to get apples-to-apples
comparison with the other installers and if he's in the ballpark go
with him, likely following his initial recommendations as he seemed to
know what he's talking about.

Anyone see a downside to this plan?

I'm not a big fan of electronic air cleaners...

See what modifications he can do to the ducting to allow for the media
filter.
The electronic is a pain to clean and most people end up not doing it as
often as they should.

Also remember, this is something you'll be living with and is the system
that will maintain your comfort. So a few extra dollars now can save a
lot
of headaches and compromised comfort.

It's a pain to throw the grids in the dishwasher???

Must be as most homeowners NEVER clean them!!!

I don't think that will be an issue in this case; I drive a Porsche so
I am certainly familiar with regular DIY maintenance. Way, WAY too
familiar.

nate

(wondering when a used S2000 will become affordable...)

"N8N" wrote in message
ups.com...

Must be as most homeowners NEVER clean them!!!

I don't think that will be an issue in this case; I drive a Porsche so
I am certainly familiar with regular DIY maintenance. Way, WAY too
familiar.


Just because you drive a Porsche doesn't mean you are going to clean your
home electronic air filter. rolleyes

wrote in message
...
in my rental units, i have to say the trane is the most trouble
free overall. with rheem in second. the goodman and others had
electrical component failures after a couple years. this leads me to
belive trane used better electrical components and seem go 20 years
without problems overall. the size of your ductwork has alot to do with
how well a system will work, to small and youll never get the full
efficiency of the unit. for example,my rentals had too small return
ducts , sizing them up correctly made a huge difference.keeping the
outside and inside units clean is also a must for keeping the system
working at peak and long life. i dont have electronic filters,but if
you have allergies they are worth it, but must be kept clean also .
lucas


One needs to realize the above information comes from someone without
training.
It's pure 100% opinion from a landlord. So take it for what it's worth,
nothing.
Nice going, webtv boy.