The Carrier heat pump / air conditioning unit (model 38YMA036300)
installed on a 2700 sq ft house 15 years ago has stopped cooling. On
the unit outside, the fan is blowing and the compressor is working,
but the air after the radiator is not warm/hot. The copper pipe coming
out of the compressor is hot and remains hot going into two parts of
radiator, but none of the other copper U elbows feel hot or even warm.
It seems the radiator is clogged. Is there a simply way to further
verify that this is the problem?

Should I have the outside unit repaired or replace the entire system?
Which brand provides a good value and above average reliability? Thx

jay wrote:
The Carrier heat pump / air conditioning unit (model 38YMA036300)
installed on a 2700 sq ft house 15 years ago has stopped cooling. On
the unit outside, the fan is blowing and the compressor is working,
but the air after the radiator is not warm/hot. The copper pipe coming
out of the compressor is hot and remains hot going into two parts of
radiator, but none of the other copper U elbows feel hot or even warm.
It seems the radiator is clogged. Is there a simply way to further
verify that this is the problem?

Should I have the outside unit repaired or replace the entire system?
Which brand provides a good value and above average reliability? Thx



When was the last time you had a professional maintenance check on that
system?

If you haven't bothered to have that done, then have you checked and
cleaned the air filter and or the coil fins?

I'm assuming that thing you're calling a "radiator" is the evaporator in
the air handler. They don't "clog", but the metering device in the high
side line feeding them can and does.

I'm going to make a WAG that you're in over your head already. Ask
around and learn who your friends and neighbors trust and call in a pro.

15 years is a reasonable lifetime for a home HVAC system so it's
probably time to think about replacing both ends of the system. The
improved efficiency of today's equipment will reduce your electric bill
a noticable amount. I've had good luck with Trane equipment.

HTH,

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.98*10^14 fathoms per fortnight.

When was the last time you had a professional maintenance
check on that system?

Most recently about two years ago. He added some freon.

If you haven't bothered to have that done, then have you checked and
cleaned the air filter and or the coil fins?

I replace the air filter inside the house approx every 3 months. On
the unit outside, no leaves or debris are obstructing the air flow.

I'm assuming that thing you're calling a "radiator" is the evaporator in
the air handler. They don't "clog", but the metering device in the high
side line feeding them can and does.

Sorry, for my terminology. By "radiator" I meant the condenser. In
reference to the diagram shown at http://www.energyquest.ca.gov/how_it...nditioner.html,
I am talking about the "outside unit". The orange tube comming out of
the compressor is hot upto the first entry point of the condenser.

I'm going to make a WAG that you're in over your head already.



15 years is a reasonable lifetime for a home HVAC system so it's
probably time to think about replacing both ends of the system. The
improved efficiency of today's equipment will reduce your electric bill
a noticable amount. I've had good luck with Trane equipment.

So far local dealers quoted me REEM RAN13 for $3700 or Lennox 14ACX
for $5000. I'll check on Trane. Thx.

"jay" wrote in message
oups.com...


Should I have the outside unit repaired or replace the entire system?
Which brand provides a good value and above average reliability? Thx


The one that's properly sized, installed and set-up to operate with-in the
manufacture's specifications!

"jay" wrote in message
ups.com...
When was the last time you had a professional maintenance
check on that system?

Most recently about two years ago. He added some freon.


Why? Did he find and repair the leak at that time too?


15 years is a reasonable lifetime for a home HVAC system so it's
probably time to think about replacing both ends of the system. The
improved efficiency of today's equipment will reduce your electric bill
a noticable amount. I've had good luck with Trane equipment.

So far local dealers quoted me REEM RAN13 for $3700 or Lennox 14ACX
for $5000. I'll check on Trane. Thx.


No need too, the installer is far more important then the brand name!!!

"jay" wrote in message
ups.com...
When was the last time you had a professional maintenance
check on that system?

Most recently about two years ago. He added some freon.

Assuming that the technician really did add some refrigerant then you had
(have) a leak. Refrigerant doesn't get "used up" in a closed system. If
the technician added freon without offering to fix the leak then they are a
hack. In either case, avoid purchasing a new system from the company that
did the previous sloppy maintenance.

So far local dealers quoted me REEM RAN13 for $3700 or Lennox 14ACX
for $5000. I'll check on Trane. Thx.

I'd recommend Trane / American Standard.

"Travis Jordan" wrote in message
. ..
"jay" wrote in message
ups.com...
When was the last time you had a professional maintenance
check on that system?

Most recently about two years ago. He added some freon.

Assuming that the technician really did add some refrigerant then you had
(have) a leak. Refrigerant doesn't get "used up" in a closed system. If
the technician added freon without offering to fix the leak then they are
a
hack. In either case, avoid purchasing a new system from the company that
did the previous sloppy maintenance.

So far local dealers quoted me REEM RAN13 for $3700 or Lennox 14ACX
for $5000. I'll check on Trane. Thx.

I'd recommend Trane / American Standard.


I'd recommend Arcoaire, Comfortmaker, Heil, Tempstar, AirQuest, Keeprite,
Maratherm, Lennox, AirEase, Armstrong Air, Carrier, Bryant, Payne, Rheem,
Ruud, Weathermaker, Gibson, Frigidaire, Tappen, Maytag, Goodman, Janitrol,
York, Coleman, etc...

Anything but Trane / American Standard!!!!!

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote...
I'd recommend Arcoaire, Comfortmaker, Heil, Tempstar, AirQuest, Keeprite,
Maratherm, Lennox, AirEase, Armstrong Air, Carrier, Bryant, Payne, Rheem,
Ruud, Weathermaker, Gibson, Frigidaire, Tappen, Maytag, Goodman, Janitrol,
York, Coleman, etc...

Goodman?

I've had excellent service from my 1989 Trane, Don't know about current
ones.

Much depends on installer/servicer.
kjpro @ usenet.com wrote in message
...

"Travis Jordan" wrote in message
. ..
"jay" wrote in message
ups.com...
When was the last time you had a professional maintenance
check on that system?

Most recently about two years ago. He added some freon.

Assuming that the technician really did add some refrigerant then you had
(have) a leak. Refrigerant doesn't get "used up" in a closed system. If
the technician added freon without offering to fix the leak then they are
a
hack. In either case, avoid purchasing a new system from the company that
did the previous sloppy maintenance.

So far local dealers quoted me REEM RAN13 for $3700 or Lennox 14ACX
for $5000. I'll check on Trane. Thx.

I'd recommend Trane / American Standard.


I'd recommend Arcoaire, Comfortmaker, Heil, Tempstar, AirQuest, Keeprite,
Maratherm, Lennox, AirEase, Armstrong Air, Carrier, Bryant, Payne, Rheem,
Ruud, Weathermaker, Gibson, Frigidaire, Tappen, Maytag, Goodman, Janitrol,
York, Coleman, etc...

Anything but Trane / American Standard!!!!!

"Travis Jordan" wrote in message

Goodman?

I don't own one but I've read that they are better than in the past.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"Travis Jordan" wrote in message
Goodman?

I don't own one but I've read that they are better than in the past.

Last I looked they were still dead last in the CR reliability charts
(and by no narrow range, either). That, of course, is _possibly_ biased
by older units that drag newer ones into the same mudpit as there's no
separation by age/model/etc., which is a complaint I've voiced before...

--

Travis Jordan wrote:

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote...

I'd recommend Arcoaire, Comfortmaker, Heil, Tempstar, AirQuest, Keeprite,
Maratherm, Lennox, AirEase, Armstrong Air, Carrier, Bryant, Payne, Rheem,
Ruud, Weathermaker, Gibson, Frigidaire, Tappen, Maytag, Goodman, Janitrol,
York, Coleman, etc...


Goodman?


He's right. AFAICT, there's nothing wrong with Goodman. I think they
attract hatred only because they don't offer as much markup to the
"professionals" who would prefer a higher profit margin.

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

newman wrote:

I've had excellent service from my 1989 Trane, Don't know about current
ones.

Much depends on installer/servicer.
kjpro @ usenet.com wrote in message
. ..

"Travis Jordan" wrote in message
...


"jay" wrote in message
roups.com...


When was the last time you had a professional maintenance
check on that system?


Most recently about two years ago. He added some freon.


Assuming that the technician really did add some refrigerant then
you had
(have) a leak. Refrigerant doesn't get "used up" in a closed system. If
the technician added freon without offering to fix the leak then they
are
a hack. In either case, avoid purchasing a new system from the
company that
did the previous sloppy maintenance.
So far local dealers quoted me REEM RAN13 for $3700 or Lennox 14ACX
for $5000. I'll check on Trane. Thx. I'd recommend Trane / American
Standard.

I'd recommend Arcoaire, Comfortmaker, Heil, Tempstar, AirQuest, Keeprite,
Maratherm, Lennox, AirEase, Armstrong Air, Carrier, Bryant, Payne, Rheem,
Ruud, Weathermaker, Gibson, Frigidaire, Tappen, Maytag, Goodman, Janitrol,
York, Coleman, etc...
Anything but Trane / American Standard!!!!!


Give us your personal beef on Trane/Ameruican Standard.
I think I may know what it might be. - udarrell

--
WISDOM PRINCIPLE DIRECTED EMPOWERMENT COMMUNICATIONS -
THE REAL POLITICAL ISSUES and WISDOM BASED PEOPLE EMPOWERMENT

http://www.udarrell.com/

http://www.udarrell.com/my_pages2.htm
(My Airconditioning Links, Hunting Shooting, Angus Cattle, etc.)

http://www.udarrell.com/principled_a...ju stice.html

http://www.udarrell.com/recognizing_real_enemies.html

http://jesuschristsavior.net/Beatitudes.html

http://www.antiwar.com/ ***

Reality Is Not An Easy Thing To Be Confronted With, or to Accept!

"Travis Jordan" wrote in message
.. .
kjpro @ usenet.com wrote...
I'd recommend Arcoaire, Comfortmaker, Heil, Tempstar, AirQuest,
Keeprite,
Maratherm, Lennox, AirEase, Armstrong Air, Carrier, Bryant, Payne,
Rheem,
Ruud, Weathermaker, Gibson, Frigidaire, Tappen, Maytag, Goodman,
Janitrol,
York, Coleman, etc...

Goodman?


Yes, Goodman...

I'm tired of people that continue to rate their products by name... it's a
joke to rate HVAC equipment by name alone.

Who spec's the job?
Who's the end manufacture?
Who's the guy that tunes the equipment?

It's the HVAC company and their personnel.

So, until the day that HVAC products become "plug and play" devices... the
name is only a small part of the complete installation.

Anyone who doesn't understand this, doesn't understand HVAC... PERIOD!!!!
So, for the guys that rave on Trane/American Standard (being the best)...
are usually the one's that don't understand what it takes to make today's
equipment operate with-in the manufacture's specifications! And why one
brand will outlast another (it's not because one is better than the other).

"udarrell" wrote in message
. net...
newman wrote:

I've had excellent service from my 1989 Trane, Don't know about current
ones.

Much depends on installer/servicer.
kjpro @ usenet.com wrote in message
. ..

"Travis Jordan" wrote in message
...


"jay" wrote in message
roups.com...


When was the last time you had a professional maintenance
check on that system?


Most recently about two years ago. He added some freon.


Assuming that the technician really did add some refrigerant then
you had
(have) a leak. Refrigerant doesn't get "used up" in a closed system. If
the technician added freon without offering to fix the leak then they
are
a hack. In either case, avoid purchasing a new system from the
company that
did the previous sloppy maintenance.
So far local dealers quoted me REEM RAN13 for $3700 or Lennox 14ACX
for $5000. I'll check on Trane. Thx. I'd recommend Trane / American
Standard.

I'd recommend Arcoaire, Comfortmaker, Heil, Tempstar, AirQuest, Keeprite,
Maratherm, Lennox, AirEase, Armstrong Air, Carrier, Bryant, Payne, Rheem,
Ruud, Weathermaker, Gibson, Frigidaire, Tappen, Maytag, Goodman,
Janitrol,
York, Coleman, etc...
Anything but Trane / American Standard!!!!!


Give us your personal beef on Trane/Ameruican Standard.
I think I may know what it might be. - udarrell


My beef with Trane / American Standard?

It's that every dealer that uses this equipment THINKS it's the best
equipment manufactured and that no other equipment comes close.

I will take any brand of unit that is proper sized, installed and tuned over
a POS Trane/American Standard any day of the year. The other fact, is that
while they rave their brand, they're normally the ones that don't understand
why one brand last and another fails. You and I both know that the equipment
is a small piece of the pie when it comes to longevity, efficiency and
overall comfort.

The bigger piece is the designer, installer, serviceman and the overall
service level of the HVAC contractor!

I've had a couple cases where I took apart and cleaned the
outdoor unit, and the AC came back to life. Please make a few
calls, and see if you can find a HVAC service company that's
willing to take apart and clean the outdoor unit. They should use
chemicals (sprayed on) and then a water hose to rinse it clean.

I'm not there to get all the readings, but it sounds like your
unit can run for several more years.

--

Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
..

"jay" wrote in message
oups.com...
: The Carrier heat pump / air conditioning unit (model
38YMA036300)
: installed on a 2700 sq ft house 15 years ago has stopped
cooling. On
: the unit outside, the fan is blowing and the compressor is
working,
: but the air after the radiator is not warm/hot. The copper pipe
coming
: out of the compressor is hot and remains hot going into two
parts of
: radiator, but none of the other copper U elbows feel hot or
even warm.
: It seems the radiator is clogged. Is there a simply way to
further
: verify that this is the problem?
:
: Should I have the outside unit repaired or replace the entire
system?
: Which brand provides a good value and above average
reliability? Thx
:

I've had a couple cases where I took apart and cleaned the
outdoor unit, and the AC came back to life. Please make a few
calls, and see if you can find a HVAC service company that's
willing to take apart and clean the outdoor unit. They should use
chemicals (sprayed on) and then a water hose to rinse it clean.

I'm not there to get all the readings, but it sounds like your
unit can run for several more years.

I ended up calling a repairman. He located a leak in the evaporator
tubing inside the air handler located in the attic. He recommended
either replacing the entire Carrier air handler ($1600 - 1800) or the
entire system for with Lennox 14ACX / CBX26UH system for about $3300.

While getting quotes, some said you might as well switch to the R410A
refrigerant as R22 will be start to phase out in 2009. Others said R22
is cheaper and will be around for a long while. Is it better to stick
with a 14 SEER R22 system?

I like the old stuff. It's 14 years after they outlawed R-12, and
a friend of mine has two thirty pounders of R-12 in his garage.
He's going out of business, account of age. And offered to sell
them to me. I'll call him back one day and see how much he wants.

I'd go with the older R-22 stuff. It runs at lower pressures, and
will be available for quite a while.

--

Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
..

"jay" wrote in message
ps.com...
: I've had a couple cases where I took apart and cleaned the
: outdoor unit, and the AC came back to life. Please make a few
: calls, and see if you can find a HVAC service company that's
: willing to take apart and clean the outdoor unit. They should
use
: chemicals (sprayed on) and then a water hose to rinse it
clean.
:
: I'm not there to get all the readings, but it sounds like
your
: unit can run for several more years.
:
: I ended up calling a repairman. He located a leak in the
evaporator
: tubing inside the air handler located in the attic. He
recommended
: either replacing the entire Carrier air handler ($1600 - 1800)
or the
: entire system for with Lennox 14ACX / CBX26UH system for about
$3300.
:
: While getting quotes, some said you might as well switch to the
R410A
: refrigerant as R22 will be start to phase out in 2009. Others
said R22
: is cheaper and will be around for a long while. Is it better to
stick
: with a 14 SEER R22 system?
:

On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 13:38:45 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"Travis Jordan" wrote in message
...
"jay" wrote in message
ups.com...
When was the last time you had a professional maintenance
check on that system?

Most recently about two years ago. He added some freon.

Assuming that the technician really did add some refrigerant then you had
(have) a leak. Refrigerant doesn't get "used up" in a closed system. If
the technician added freon without offering to fix the leak then they are
a
hack. In either case, avoid purchasing a new system from the company that
did the previous sloppy maintenance.

So far local dealers quoted me REEM RAN13 for $3700 or Lennox 14ACX
for $5000. I'll check on Trane. Thx.

I'd recommend Trane / American Standard.


I'd recommend Arcoaire, Comfortmaker, Heil, Tempstar, AirQuest, Keeprite,
Maratherm, Lennox, AirEase, Armstrong Air, Carrier, Bryant, Payne, Rheem,
Ruud, Weathermaker, Gibson, Frigidaire, Tappen, Maytag, Goodman, Janitrol,
York, Coleman, etc...

Anything but Trane / American Standard!!!!!

But you just finished saying:
quote
"No need too, the installer is far more important then the brand name!!!
end quote

I take it you're an installer, and I can see why you'd say that, because it's
good for business. OTOH, I prefer to purchase brands that have a decent
history of quality. While that's no guarantee that I won't have trouble, I'm
_less_likely_ than the buyer of the Yugo-quality item.

I like my regular vehicle mechanic, and he does a bang-up job, but I don't
want to see him any more often than I have to. The best tradesman can't make
a low-quality item a good product, and EVERY manufacturing sector has its
quality brands and it's also-rans.

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:

"udarrell" wrote in message
.net...


newman wrote:


I've had excellent service from my 1989 Trane, Don't know about current
ones.

Much depends on installer/servicer.
kjpro @ usenet.com wrote in message
. ..

"Travis Jordan" wrote in message
om...


"jay" wrote in message
egroups.com...


When was the last time you had a professional maintenance
check on that system?


Most recently about two years ago. He added some freon.


Assuming that the technician really did add some refrigerant then
you had
(have) a leak. Refrigerant doesn't get "used up" in a closed system. If
the technician added freon without offering to fix the leak then they
are a hack. In either case, avoid purchasing a new system from the
company that did the previous sloppy maintenance.
So far local dealers quoted me REEM RAN13 for $3700 or Lennox 14ACX
for $5000. I'll check on Trane. Thx. I'd recommend Trane / American
Standard.


I'd recommend Arcoaire, Comfortmaker, Heil, Tempstar, AirQuest,
Keeprite,
Maratherm, Lennox, AirEase, Armstrong Air, Carrier, Bryant, Payne,
Rheem,
Ruud, Weathermaker, Gibson, Frigidaire, Tappen, Maytag,
Goodman,Janitrol,
York, Coleman, etc... Anything but Trane / American Standard!!

Give us your personal beef on Trane/Ameruican Standard.
I think I may know what it might be. - udarrell


My beef with Trane / American Standard?

It's that every dealer that uses this equipment THINKS it's the best
equipment manufactured and that no other equipment comes close.

I will take any brand of unit that is proper sized, installed and tuned over
a POS Trane/American Standard any day of the year. The other fact, is that
while they rave their brand, they're normally the ones that don't understand
why one brand last and another fails. You and I both know that the equipment
is a small piece of the pie when it comes to longevity, efficiency and
overall comfort.

The bigger piece is the designer, installer, serviceman and the overall
service level of the HVAC contractor!


Your two posts said it a much better than I ever could have!
Way to go Man! - udarrell

Reality Is Not An Easy Thing To Be Confronted With, or to Accept!

xModem wrote:

On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 13:38:45 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"Travis Jordan" wrote in message
m...


"jay" wrote in message
groups.com...


When was the last time you had a professional maintenance
check on that system?


Most recently about two years ago. He added some freon.


Assuming that the technician really did add some refrigerant then you had
(have) a leak. Refrigerant doesn't get "used up" in a closed system. If
the technician added freon without offering to fix the leak then they are


a


hack. In either case, avoid purchasing a new system from the company that
did the previous sloppy maintenance.


So far local dealers quoted me REEM RAN13 for $3700 or Lennox 14ACX
for $5000. I'll check on Trane. Thx.


I'd recommend Trane / American Standard.


I'd recommend Arcoaire, Comfortmaker, Heil, Tempstar, AirQuest, Keeprite,
Maratherm, Lennox, AirEase, Armstrong Air, Carrier, Bryant, Payne, Rheem,
Ruud, Weathermaker, Gibson, Frigidaire, Tappen, Maytag, Goodman, Janitrol,
York, Coleman, etc...

Anything but Trane / American Standard!!!!!



But you just finished saying:
quote
"No need too, the installer is far more important then the brand name!!!
end quote

I take it you're an installer, and I can see why you'd say that, because it's
good for business. OTOH, I prefer to purchase brands that have a decent
history of quality. While that's no guarantee that I won't have trouble, I'm
_less_likely_ than the buyer of the Yugo-quality item.

I like my regular vehicle mechanic, and he does a bang-up job, but I don't
want to see him any more often than I have to. The best tradesman can't make
a low-quality item a good product, and EVERY manufacturing sector has its
quality brands and it's also-rans.


The installation of HVAC equipment is NOT comparable to a new car.
The competency level of the installer will be the major factor in the
life & service of central AC equipment.
The major components in air conditioners are made by other companies &
most companies use the same ones, with a few exceptions, and that does
not mean that their compressor or other component is better than what
the other AC companies are using.
The Copeland Scroll is installed in many brand name ACs; are they better
in your AC brand; me thinks not.

A bad install can ruin the best equipment on earth, and that includes
the equipment you are boosting about!
Additionally, the price differential on new Brand XX AC equipment, when
equipment is properly installed with matching ductwork, etc., will NOT
provide the buyer "with as good a payback" on the higher SEER. I am
talking about the HIGH END of a Brand NOT the low end of any Brand!
I firmly believe that the high end Models of, for example, Goodman
condensers' with scroll Copeland compressors will perform & last with
any other Brand.

I am a Retired HVAC/R Contractor and am not selling or promoting any AC
Brand for monetary gain. - udarrell

--
WISDOM PRINCIPLE DIRECTED EMPOWERMENT COMMUNICATIONS -
THE REAL POLITICAL ISSUES and WISDOM BASED PEOPLE EMPOWERMENT

http://www.udarrell.com/

http://www.udarrell.com/my_pages2.htm
(* My Airconditioning Links, Hunting Shooting, Angus Cattle, etc.)

http://www.udarrell.com/principled_a...ju stice.html

http://www.udarrell.com/recognizing_real_enemies.html

http://jesuschristsavior.net/Beatitudes.html

http://www.antiwar.com/ ***

Reality Is Not An Easy Thing To Be Confronted With, or to Accept!

"xModem" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 13:38:45 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"Travis Jordan" wrote in message
...
"jay" wrote in message
ups.com...
When was the last time you had a professional maintenance
check on that system?

Most recently about two years ago. He added some freon.

Assuming that the technician really did add some refrigerant then you
had
(have) a leak. Refrigerant doesn't get "used up" in a closed system.
If
the technician added freon without offering to fix the leak then they
are
a
hack. In either case, avoid purchasing a new system from the company
that
did the previous sloppy maintenance.

So far local dealers quoted me REEM RAN13 for $3700 or Lennox 14ACX
for $5000. I'll check on Trane. Thx.

I'd recommend Trane / American Standard.


I'd recommend Arcoaire, Comfortmaker, Heil, Tempstar, AirQuest, Keeprite,
Maratherm, Lennox, AirEase, Armstrong Air, Carrier, Bryant, Payne, Rheem,
Ruud, Weathermaker, Gibson, Frigidaire, Tappen, Maytag, Goodman,
Janitrol,
York, Coleman, etc...

Anything but Trane / American Standard!!!!!

But you just finished saying:
quote
"No need too, the installer is far more important then the brand name!!!
end quote

I take it you're an installer, and I can see why you'd say that, because
it's
good for business. OTOH, I prefer to purchase brands that have a decent
history of quality. While that's no guarantee that I won't have trouble,
I'm
_less_likely_ than the buyer of the Yugo-quality item.

I like my regular vehicle mechanic, and he does a bang-up job, but I don't
want to see him any more often than I have to. The best tradesman can't
make
a low-quality item a good product, and EVERY manufacturing sector has its
quality brands and it's also-rans.


Get a clue and see my other post.

I was ragging on the "this brand is better, BS".

Your installer *is* the end manufacture! HVAC equipment longevity depends on
a proper installation. The brand doesn't matter!

"jay" wrote in message
ps.com...

While getting quotes, some said you might as well switch to the R410A
refrigerant as R22 will be start to phase out in 2009. Others said R22
is cheaper and will be around for a long while. Is it better to stick
with a 14 SEER R22 system?


End of production date for R-22 equipment, 2010.

I'd still install an R-22 system in my home today!

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 23:24:39 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 13:38:45 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"Travis Jordan" wrote in message
...
"jay" wrote in message
ups.com...
When was the last time you had a professional maintenance
check on that system?

Most recently about two years ago. He added some freon.

Assuming that the technician really did add some refrigerant then you
had
(have) a leak. Refrigerant doesn't get "used up" in a closed system.
If
the technician added freon without offering to fix the leak then they
are
a
hack. In either case, avoid purchasing a new system from the company
that
did the previous sloppy maintenance.

So far local dealers quoted me REEM RAN13 for $3700 or Lennox 14ACX
for $5000. I'll check on Trane. Thx.

I'd recommend Trane / American Standard.


I'd recommend Arcoaire, Comfortmaker, Heil, Tempstar, AirQuest, Keeprite,
Maratherm, Lennox, AirEase, Armstrong Air, Carrier, Bryant, Payne, Rheem,
Ruud, Weathermaker, Gibson, Frigidaire, Tappen, Maytag, Goodman,
Janitrol,
York, Coleman, etc...

Anything but Trane / American Standard!!!!!

But you just finished saying:
quote
"No need too, the installer is far more important then the brand name!!!
end quote

I take it you're an installer, and I can see why you'd say that, because
it's
good for business. OTOH, I prefer to purchase brands that have a decent
history of quality. While that's no guarantee that I won't have trouble,
I'm
_less_likely_ than the buyer of the Yugo-quality item.

I like my regular vehicle mechanic, and he does a bang-up job, but I don't
want to see him any more often than I have to. The best tradesman can't
make
a low-quality item a good product, and EVERY manufacturing sector has its
quality brands and it's also-rans.


Get a clue and see my other post.

I was ragging on the "this brand is better, BS".

Your installer *is* the end manufacture! HVAC equipment longevity depends on
a proper installation. The brand doesn't matter!

Nonsense...

On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 02:10:55 GMT, udarrell wrote:

xModem wrote:

On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 13:38:45 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"Travis Jordan" wrote in message
om...


"jay" wrote in message
egroups.com...


When was the last time you had a professional maintenance
check on that system?


Most recently about two years ago. He added some freon.


Assuming that the technician really did add some refrigerant then you had
(have) a leak. Refrigerant doesn't get "used up" in a closed system. If
the technician added freon without offering to fix the leak then they are


a


hack. In either case, avoid purchasing a new system from the company that
did the previous sloppy maintenance.


So far local dealers quoted me REEM RAN13 for $3700 or Lennox 14ACX
for $5000. I'll check on Trane. Thx.


I'd recommend Trane / American Standard.


I'd recommend Arcoaire, Comfortmaker, Heil, Tempstar, AirQuest, Keeprite,
Maratherm, Lennox, AirEase, Armstrong Air, Carrier, Bryant, Payne, Rheem,
Ruud, Weathermaker, Gibson, Frigidaire, Tappen, Maytag, Goodman, Janitrol,
York, Coleman, etc...

Anything but Trane / American Standard!!!!!



But you just finished saying:
quote
"No need too, the installer is far more important then the brand name!!!
end quote

I take it you're an installer, and I can see why you'd say that, because it's
good for business. OTOH, I prefer to purchase brands that have a decent
history of quality. While that's no guarantee that I won't have trouble, I'm
_less_likely_ than the buyer of the Yugo-quality item.

I like my regular vehicle mechanic, and he does a bang-up job, but I don't
want to see him any more often than I have to. The best tradesman can't make
a low-quality item a good product, and EVERY manufacturing sector has its
quality brands and it's also-rans.


The installation of HVAC equipment is NOT comparable to a new car.
The competency level of the installer will be the major factor in the
life & service of central AC equipment.
The major components in air conditioners are made by other companies &
most companies use the same ones, with a few exceptions, and that does
not mean that their compressor or other component is better than what
the other AC companies are using.
The Copeland Scroll is installed in many brand name ACs; are they better
in your AC brand; me thinks not.

At no time did I argue that the installer isn't an important element. It is
extremely important. However, anyone claiming that equipment quality doesn't
factor into it, and that the only important factor is the installer, is being
disingenuous.

A bad install can ruin the best equipment on earth

No argument there.
By the same token, a great install on a low-end piece of crap still results in
a low end piece of crap.

, and that includes the equipment you are boosting about!

I wasn't advocating any brand of equipment. That was another poster.

Additionally, the price differential on new Brand XX AC equipment, when
equipment is properly installed with matching ductwork, etc., will NOT
provide the buyer "with as good a payback" on the higher SEER. I am
talking about the HIGH END of a Brand NOT the low end of any Brand!
I firmly believe that the high end Models of, for example, Goodman
condensers' with scroll Copeland compressors will perform & last with
any other Brand.

So you're saying that there's a difference between high end and low end
equipment? That puts us on the same page. That's always been my point.

I am a Retired HVAC/R Contractor and am not selling or promoting any AC
Brand for monetary gain. - udarrell

On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 14:28:17 -0400, xModem wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 23:24:39 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
. ..
On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 13:38:45 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"Travis Jordan" wrote in message
...
"jay" wrote in message
ups.com...
When was the last time you had a professional maintenance
check on that system?

Most recently about two years ago. He added some freon.

Assuming that the technician really did add some refrigerant then you
had
(have) a leak. Refrigerant doesn't get "used up" in a closed system.
If
the technician added freon without offering to fix the leak then they
are
a
hack. In either case, avoid purchasing a new system from the company
that
did the previous sloppy maintenance.

So far local dealers quoted me REEM RAN13 for $3700 or Lennox 14ACX
for $5000. I'll check on Trane. Thx.

I'd recommend Trane / American Standard.


I'd recommend Arcoaire, Comfortmaker, Heil, Tempstar, AirQuest, Keeprite,
Maratherm, Lennox, AirEase, Armstrong Air, Carrier, Bryant, Payne, Rheem,
Ruud, Weathermaker, Gibson, Frigidaire, Tappen, Maytag, Goodman,
Janitrol,
York, Coleman, etc...

Anything but Trane / American Standard!!!!!

But you just finished saying:
quote
"No need too, the installer is far more important then the brand name!!!
end quote

I take it you're an installer, and I can see why you'd say that, because
it's
good for business. OTOH, I prefer to purchase brands that have a decent
history of quality. While that's no guarantee that I won't have trouble,
I'm
_less_likely_ than the buyer of the Yugo-quality item.

I like my regular vehicle mechanic, and he does a bang-up job, but I don't
want to see him any more often than I have to. The best tradesman can't
make
a low-quality item a good product, and EVERY manufacturing sector has its
quality brands and it's also-rans.


Get a clue and see my other post.

I was ragging on the "this brand is better, BS".

Your installer *is* the end manufacture! HVAC equipment longevity depends on
a proper installation. The brand doesn't matter!

Nonsense...

Let me rephrase that.
With the _same_ installer installing two furnaces - one a low-end
contractor-grade brand x, and a higher-end, higher-rated unit, statistically,
the low-end, lower rated unit is going to have more problems.

xModem wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 14:28:17 -0400, xModem wrote:


On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 23:24:39 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
...

On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 13:38:45 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"Travis Jordan" wrote in message
.com...

"jay" wrote in message
glegroups.com...

When was the last time you had a professional maintenance
check on that system?

Most recently about two years ago. He added some freon.

Assuming that the technician really did add some refrigerant then you

had

(have) a leak. Refrigerant doesn't get "used up" in a closed system.

If

the technician added freon without offering to fix the leak then they

are

a

hack. In either case, avoid purchasing a new system from the company

that

did the previous sloppy maintenance.


So far local dealers quoted me REEM RAN13 for $3700 or Lennox 14ACX
for $5000. I'll check on Trane. Thx.

I'd recommend Trane / American Standard.


I'd recommend Arcoaire, Comfortmaker, Heil, Tempstar, AirQuest, Keeprite,
Maratherm, Lennox, AirEase, Armstrong Air, Carrier, Bryant, Payne, Rheem,
Ruud, Weathermaker, Gibson, Frigidaire, Tappen, Maytag, Goodman,

Janitrol,

York, Coleman, etc...

Anything but Trane / American Standard!!!!!

But you just finished saying:
quote
"No need too, the installer is far more important then the brand name!!!
end quote

I take it you're an installer, and I can see why you'd say that, because

it's

good for business. OTOH, I prefer to purchase brands that have a decent
history of quality. While that's no guarantee that I won't have trouble,

I'm

_less_likely_ than the buyer of the Yugo-quality item.

I like my regular vehicle mechanic, and he does a bang-up job, but I don't
want to see him any more often than I have to. The best tradesman can't

make

a low-quality item a good product, and EVERY manufacturing sector has its
quality brands and it's also-rans.


Get a clue and see my other post.

I was ragging on the "this brand is better, BS".

Your installer *is* the end manufacture! HVAC equipment longevity depends on
a proper installation. The brand doesn't matter!

Nonsense...


Let me rephrase that.
With the _same_ installer installing two furnaces - one a low-end
contractor-grade brand x, and a higher-end, higher-rated unit, statistically,
the low-end, lower rated unit is going to have more problems.

Often they're built in the same factory, just marketed differently.

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

CJT wrote:
xModem wrote:
....

With the _same_ installer installing two furnaces - one a low-end
contractor-grade brand x, and a higher-end, higher-rated unit,
statistically,
the low-end, lower rated unit is going to have more problems.

Often they're built in the same factory, just marketed differently.

And, often they're not.

Might try looking at CR repair histories by vendor -- while not perfect
data by any means, there are trends there that are probably realistic.

--

On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 17:30:04 -0500, dpb wrote:

CJT wrote:
xModem wrote:
...

With the _same_ installer installing two furnaces - one a low-end
contractor-grade brand x, and a higher-end, higher-rated unit,
statistically,
the low-end, lower rated unit is going to have more problems.

Often they're built in the same factory, just marketed differently.

And, often they're not.

Might try looking at CR repair histories by vendor -- while not perfect
data by any means, there are trends there that are probably realistic.

Funny you should mention that.
The other day, I grabbed an article off ConsumerReports.com, rating gas
furnace repair frequencies.
Naysayers should bear in mind; these aren't CS's own opinions. They're the
result of a survey of 36,181 homeowners. Note that the survey was done in
2004 as well.

In order, from best to worst:

- American Standard
- Rheem
- Trane
- Ruud
- Bryant
- Carrier
- Heil
- York
- Amana
- Lennox
- Tempstar
- Goodman

"xModem" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 14:28:17 -0400, xModem wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 23:24:39 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
. ..
On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 13:38:45 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"Travis Jordan" wrote in message
...
"jay" wrote in message
ups.com...
When was the last time you had a professional maintenance
check on that system?

Most recently about two years ago. He added some freon.

Assuming that the technician really did add some refrigerant then
you
had
(have) a leak. Refrigerant doesn't get "used up" in a closed
system.
If
the technician added freon without offering to fix the leak then
they
are
a
hack. In either case, avoid purchasing a new system from the
company
that
did the previous sloppy maintenance.

So far local dealers quoted me REEM RAN13 for $3700 or Lennox
14ACX
for $5000. I'll check on Trane. Thx.

I'd recommend Trane / American Standard.


I'd recommend Arcoaire, Comfortmaker, Heil, Tempstar, AirQuest,
Keeprite,
Maratherm, Lennox, AirEase, Armstrong Air, Carrier, Bryant, Payne,
Rheem,
Ruud, Weathermaker, Gibson, Frigidaire, Tappen, Maytag, Goodman,
Janitrol,
York, Coleman, etc...

Anything but Trane / American Standard!!!!!

But you just finished saying:
quote
"No need too, the installer is far more important then the brand
name!!!
end quote

I take it you're an installer, and I can see why you'd say that,
because
it's
good for business. OTOH, I prefer to purchase brands that have a
decent
history of quality. While that's no guarantee that I won't have
trouble,
I'm
_less_likely_ than the buyer of the Yugo-quality item.

I like my regular vehicle mechanic, and he does a bang-up job, but I
don't
want to see him any more often than I have to. The best tradesman
can't
make
a low-quality item a good product, and EVERY manufacturing sector has
its
quality brands and it's also-rans.


Get a clue and see my other post.

I was ragging on the "this brand is better, BS".

Your installer *is* the end manufacture! HVAC equipment longevity
depends on
a proper installation. The brand doesn't matter!

Nonsense...

Let me rephrase that.
With the _same_ installer installing two furnaces - one a low-end
contractor-grade brand x, and a higher-end, higher-rated unit,
statistically,
the low-end, lower rated unit is going to have more problems.


Bull****, the more features and safety controls you have, the more there is
to fail.

Since it's painfully obvious that you have no experience in the HVAC/R
industry, I suggest that you quit posting as someone who does. Someone my
take your bull**** and believe it. That would be a shame!

"dpb" wrote in message ...
CJT wrote:
xModem wrote:
...

With the _same_ installer installing two furnaces - one a low-end
contractor-grade brand x, and a higher-end, higher-rated unit,
statistically,
the low-end, lower rated unit is going to have more problems.

Often they're built in the same factory, just marketed differently.

And, often they're not.

Might try looking at CR repair histories by vendor -- while not perfect
data by any means, there are trends there that are probably realistic.


CR is a bunch of bull****... do they account for improper installations?

No they don't and they are very often WRONG with their assessments!

On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 18:33:48 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 14:28:17 -0400, xModem wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 23:24:39 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
. ..
On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 13:38:45 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"Travis Jordan" wrote in message
...
"jay" wrote in message
ups.com...
When was the last time you had a professional maintenance
check on that system?

Most recently about two years ago. He added some freon.

Assuming that the technician really did add some refrigerant then
you
had
(have) a leak. Refrigerant doesn't get "used up" in a closed
system.
If
the technician added freon without offering to fix the leak then
they
are
a
hack. In either case, avoid purchasing a new system from the
company
that
did the previous sloppy maintenance.

So far local dealers quoted me REEM RAN13 for $3700 or Lennox
14ACX
for $5000. I'll check on Trane. Thx.

I'd recommend Trane / American Standard.


I'd recommend Arcoaire, Comfortmaker, Heil, Tempstar, AirQuest,
Keeprite,
Maratherm, Lennox, AirEase, Armstrong Air, Carrier, Bryant, Payne,
Rheem,
Ruud, Weathermaker, Gibson, Frigidaire, Tappen, Maytag, Goodman,
Janitrol,
York, Coleman, etc...

Anything but Trane / American Standard!!!!!

But you just finished saying:
quote
"No need too, the installer is far more important then the brand
name!!!
end quote

I take it you're an installer, and I can see why you'd say that,
because
it's
good for business. OTOH, I prefer to purchase brands that have a
decent
history of quality. While that's no guarantee that I won't have
trouble,
I'm
_less_likely_ than the buyer of the Yugo-quality item.

I like my regular vehicle mechanic, and he does a bang-up job, but I
don't
want to see him any more often than I have to. The best tradesman
can't
make
a low-quality item a good product, and EVERY manufacturing sector has
its
quality brands and it's also-rans.


Get a clue and see my other post.

I was ragging on the "this brand is better, BS".

Your installer *is* the end manufacture! HVAC equipment longevity
depends on
a proper installation. The brand doesn't matter!

Nonsense...

Let me rephrase that.
With the _same_ installer installing two furnaces - one a low-end
contractor-grade brand x, and a higher-end, higher-rated unit,
statistically,
the low-end, lower rated unit is going to have more problems.


Bull****, the more features and safety controls you have, the more there is
to fail.

Since it's painfully obvious that you have no experience in the HVAC/R
industry,

FFS, you don't need an HVAC background to understand a survey.

I suggest that you quit posting as someone who does.

I've never attempted to.

Someone my
take your bull**** and believe it. That would be a shame!

If I had an installer like you tell me that equipment quality didn't matter
whatsoever, I'd show him the door.

On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 18:35:16 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"dpb" wrote in message ...
CJT wrote:
xModem wrote:
...

With the _same_ installer installing two furnaces - one a low-end
contractor-grade brand x, and a higher-end, higher-rated unit,
statistically,
the low-end, lower rated unit is going to have more problems.

Often they're built in the same factory, just marketed differently.

And, often they're not.

Might try looking at CR repair histories by vendor -- while not perfect
data by any means, there are trends there that are probably realistic.


CR is a bunch of bull****... do they account for improper installations?

Wouldn't you think that with 36,000 installs, there would be good and bad
across the board?

No they don't and they are very often WRONG with their assessments!

Learn to read for comprehension. It wasn't CR's assessment, rather 36,000
other people.

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:
....
CR is a bunch of bull****... do they account for improper installations?

No they don't and they are very often WRONG with their assessments!

Their field reliability reports aren't their lab tests but reported
failure reports.

So, to infer that the reliability differences reported between vendors
over a large number of reports over a period of time is owing to
installation would require that bad installations go with those brands
-- also a reason to avoid those brands if true, but certainly not
likely. Far more likely is that the percentage of failures reported
that is owing to installation is an approximately consistent fraction of
all reports for each brand, hence leaving the overall equipment rankings
as slightly more reliable than reported but in the same (or very nearly
the same) relative position.

--

"xModem" wrote in message
...

Funny you should mention that.
The other day, I grabbed an article off ConsumerReports.com, rating gas
furnace repair frequencies.
Naysayers should bear in mind; these aren't CS's own opinions. They're
the
result of a survey of 36,181 homeowners. Note that the survey was done in
2004 as well.

In order, from best to worst:

- American Standard
- Rheem
- Trane
- Ruud
- Bryant
- Carrier
- Heil
- York
- Amana
- Lennox
- Tempstar
- Goodman

Oh please, that's a bunch of crap! Do they ask if the installations meets
the manufacture's specifications? No they don't!

But for enterainment purposes, lets assume they did and all things in these
installations are equal.

From your list..

1. American Standard is #1 while Trane is #3, yet it's manufactured by the
same company!
2. Rheem is #2 while Ruud is #4, yet it's manufactured by the same company!
BTW, where's Weathermaker/Weatherking? It's the same thing too...
3. Bryant is #5 while Carrier is #6, yet their manufactured by the same
company! BTW, where's Payne? It's the same as well!
4. Heil is #7 while Tempstar is #11, yet their manufactured by the same
company! BTW, where's Comfortmaker, Arcoaire, AirQuest, KeepRite, Maratherm,
Sears, etc? They're all the same as well...
5. York is #8 where's Coleman? It's the same thing.
6. Amana is #9 to bad they're owed by Goodman... LOL
7. Lennox is #10 where's Armstrong, AireEase, Ducane, Aire-Flo, Concord,
Magic-Pak, Magic Chef, etc... They're are manufactured by the same people.
8. Goodman is #11 where's Janitrol? It's the same...


Where's Frigidaire, Westinghouse, Tappen, Philco, Kelvinator, Grandaire,
Gibson, Maytag, Admiral, Inertherm, Miller, Quatro, Bard, Thermopride,
Century, Heat Controller, Comfortaire, Consolidated, Fedders, and the rest
of the major brands?


Don't try and tell me none of them are in the top ten either... cause I KNOW
better!

"xModem" wrote in message
...

So you're saying that there's a difference between high end and low end
equipment? That puts us on the same page. That's always been my point.


And all this information comes from someone OUTSIDE of OUR industry.

Now I'd sure as hell take your advice over a professional any day.
rolleyes

"xModem" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 18:35:16 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"dpb" wrote in message ...
CJT wrote:
xModem wrote:
...

With the _same_ installer installing two furnaces - one a low-end
contractor-grade brand x, and a higher-end, higher-rated unit,
statistically,
the low-end, lower rated unit is going to have more problems.

Often they're built in the same factory, just marketed differently.

And, often they're not.

Might try looking at CR repair histories by vendor -- while not perfect
data by any means, there are trends there that are probably realistic.


CR is a bunch of bull****... do they account for improper installations?

Wouldn't you think that with 36,000 installs, there would be good and bad
across the board?


Try talking to someone with experience on the subject... I know!


No they don't and they are very often WRONG with their assessments!

Learn to read for comprehension. It wasn't CR's assessment, rather 36,000
other people.


Whatever, it's still a BULL**** report no matter who asked the questions...

"dpb" wrote in message ...
kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:
...
CR is a bunch of bull****... do they account for improper installations?

No they don't and they are very often WRONG with their assessments!

Their field reliability reports aren't their lab tests but reported
failure reports.

So, to infer that the reliability differences reported between vendors
over a large number of reports over a period of time is owing to
installation would require that bad installations go with those brands
-- also a reason to avoid those brands if true, but certainly not
likely. Far more likely is that the percentage of failures reported
that is owing to installation is an approximately consistent fraction of
all reports for each brand, hence leaving the overall equipment rankings
as slightly more reliable than reported but in the same (or very nearly
the same) relative position.


My own experience is backed up by facts. And the fact is... your conclusion
of their report is complete BULL****.

"xModem" wrote in message
...

Since it's painfully obvious that you have no experience in the HVAC/R
industry,

FFS, you don't need an HVAC background to understand a survey.


Survey's can be swayed one way or the other... dip****.
The fact still remains that their report is BULL****.


I suggest that you quit posting as someone who does.

I've never attempted to.


Then quit telling me about my own trade, Dip****!


Someone my
take your bull**** and believe it. That would be a shame!

If I had an installer like you tell me that equipment quality didn't
matter
whatsoever, I'd show him the door.


You wouldn't have to, I don't work for idiots!

xModem wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 17:30:04 -0500, dpb wrote:


CJT wrote:

xModem wrote:

...


With the _same_ installer installing two furnaces - one a low-end
contractor-grade brand x, and a higher-end, higher-rated unit,
statistically,
the low-end, lower rated unit is going to have more problems.

Often they're built in the same factory, just marketed differently.

And, often they're not.

Might try looking at CR repair histories by vendor -- while not perfect
data by any means, there are trends there that are probably realistic.


Funny you should mention that.
The other day, I grabbed an article off ConsumerReports.com, rating gas
furnace repair frequencies.
Naysayers should bear in mind; these aren't CS's own opinions. They're the
result of a survey of 36,181 homeowners. Note that the survey was done in
2004 as well.

In order, from best to worst:

- American Standard
- Rheem
- Trane
- Ruud
- Bryant
- Carrier
- Heil
- York
- Amana
- Lennox
- Tempstar
- Goodman

Were the differences statistically significant? At what level of
confidence?

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .