On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 20:14:56 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .

Someone else mentioned that many of the parts are interchangeable among
brands, so how is this a problem?

Try putting a computer board from a Ford into a GM product. Will it work
properly?

A Lexus dealer/distributor has car tires... will they fit my Semi?

Now, do the same thing to your HVAC equipment. Is it any different?

But what about all those brands you claimed were identical?


Does that make them *all* identical... geez, pull your head out of your
ASS!!!!

I noticed you ignored the reply from poster "yourname".

Let's assume for a minute that you can get equal service for any brand.
Which would you be first to install? Which would be the last?


I see you've never been in business...

Evasion noted.


No evasion, just more FACTS which you don't seem to like!



Come on - what's the very last brand name you'd install in your own house?
It's not that hard a question.


Seriously, it really wouldn't matter to me which brand it was... as long as
I was the one installing it.
I will also tell you (even though Goodman is at the bottom of your list),
it' be fine in my home too!


The quality of service from a distributor is no different then the
service
you get from a dealer. Are they always going to be equal? No!

But, for entertainment...
If you had a brand that was offered by one distributor vs. a brand where
several distributors offered it, which brand would you purchase?

Not the one that's at the bottom of the rating list, for starters.
I would defer to my installer, after having given him a few brands I'd be
interested in.


See, this is where that survey screws with people. Goodman products are just
as good as any in the field. And if that's the brand that the company is
familiar with and stocks parts for, I sure as hell wouldn't want them to
install something else!


Don't get the idea I'm down on tradesmen. I simply prefer to make an
informed
decision.


You say you're not down on tradesmen, yet you're here arguing with a highly
competent HVAC tech (about his own trade)!!


I'm not arguing you disingenuous ****. YOU were the one who didn't like the
results of the survey I posted. I'm simply trying to get you to answer 2
simple questions

One more time:
Let me repeat the questions. Hell, I'll even rephrase them for you.

Given *all* other factors are the same, and based on *quality* only, which
current brands would you install in your own home? More importantly, which
brands would you NOT install in your home.

Seeing as you already indicated some past designs or models that you didn't
like, what CURRENT designs or models do you not like? And don't lie and say
"I like them all."

Or are you going to pull a Fred Astaire and dance for me again?

Using CR to make a decision isn't making an informed decision. It helps you
make a decision based on an opinions that are not based on FACTS!!!!

Someone asks 2 simple questions. "What make furnace do you own?" "Have you
had problems with it?" 30,000 people answer with FACTS. Sheesh. Grab a
dictionary and look up "fact."

"xModem" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 17:42:19 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .

In order, from best to worst:

- American Standard
- Rheem
- Trane
- Ruud
- Bryant
- Carrier
- Heil
- York
- Amana
- Lennox
- Tempstar
- Goodman

Were the differences statistically significant? At what level of
confidence?


You'd have to ask the people who did the survey.

I think I know where you're going with this. However, I am simply
using
the
survey as a rough guide to what other furnace owners have to say with
regards
to reliability of the brands listed. 30,000 is a significant sample.


Yeh, so significant that it only included 12 brands! LMAO

30,000 surveys on 12 brands says a lot for those 12 brands, despite your
hand
waving.


Yeah, how many of those 30,000 homeowners do you think has any knowledge
about HVAC systems? LOL

You can take that survey and flush it down the toilet where it belongs!

"xModem" wrote in message
...

Does that make them *all* identical... geez, pull your head out of your
ASS!!!!

I noticed you ignored the reply from poster "yourname".


That's because he/she has a brain.


Don't get the idea I'm down on tradesmen. I simply prefer to make an
informed
decision.


You say you're not down on tradesmen, yet you're here arguing with a
highly
competent HVAC tech (about his own trade)!!


I'm not arguing you disingenuous ****. YOU were the one who didn't like
the
results of the survey I posted. I'm simply trying to get you to answer 2
simple questions


I didn't like the results????? Never said that... I said the survey was a
complete JOKE!!!
I could CARE LESS what order they list them in... again, the survey is a
complete JOKE!!!
As far as your questions, I have answered every single one of them with a
competent answer that YOU didn't like. Tough ****!!!


One more time:
Let me repeat the questions. Hell, I'll even rephrase them for you.

Given *all* other factors are the same, and based on *quality* only, which
current brands would you install in your own home? More importantly,
which
brands would you NOT install in your home.


Did you not understand my answer the first time?


Seeing as you already indicated some past designs or models that you
didn't
like, what CURRENT designs or models do you not like? And don't lie and
say
"I like them all."


Did you not understand my answer the first time?
Here let me tell you again, it wouldn't matter which brand was installed in
my home!
Again, every manufacture has design flaws 'from time to time'. They show up
after a few months/years, if we knew in advance that they had design flaws,
they wouldn't be producing them, now would they?


Or are you going to pull a Fred Astaire and dance for me again?


I don't dance, I tell it like it is and if you don't like the FACTS, tough
****!!!


Using CR to make a decision isn't making an informed decision. It helps
you
make a decision based on an opinions that are not based on FACTS!!!!

Someone asks 2 simple questions. "What make furnace do you own?" "Have
you
had problems with it?" 30,000 people answer with FACTS. Sheesh. Grab a
dictionary and look up "fact."


Do those same people know if their equipment is installed per code? No
Do those same people know if their equipment is properly sized? No
Do those same people know if their equipment is installed per the
manufacture's instructions? No
Do those same people know if their equipment has been set-up properly? No
Do those same people know if their equipment has been maintained properly?
No
Those people had a repair, do they know if the service company serviced the
equipment properly the first time? No
Do those same people know if first repair cause issues that made the
equipment fail a second time? No

Are you starting to see the point? I bet you don't and you never will... as
you're to ignorant to see the FACTS!!!

On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 18:49:39 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 17:42:19 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .

In order, from best to worst:

- American Standard
- Rheem
- Trane
- Ruud
- Bryant
- Carrier
- Heil
- York
- Amana
- Lennox
- Tempstar
- Goodman

Were the differences statistically significant? At what level of
confidence?


You'd have to ask the people who did the survey.

I think I know where you're going with this. However, I am simply
using
the
survey as a rough guide to what other furnace owners have to say with
regards
to reliability of the brands listed. 30,000 is a significant sample.


Yeh, so significant that it only included 12 brands! LMAO

30,000 surveys on 12 brands says a lot for those 12 brands, despite your
hand
waving.


Yeah, how many of those 30,000 homeowners do you think has any knowledge
about HVAC systems? LOL

Do you ask your customers if they have any HVAC knowledge before you will
render service? Don't be so bloody stupid.

If a person's heating system doesn't work, it doesnt' work. It matters not
what the problem is. It's a non-functioning system.

More importantly, it gives none of the surveyed systems any advantage in the
survey.

You can take that survey and flush it down the toilet where it belongs!

You keep trying to ridicule it, and you keep failing.

"xModem" wrote in message
...

You'd have to ask the people who did the survey.

I think I know where you're going with this. However, I am simply
using
the
survey as a rough guide to what other furnace owners have to say
with
regards
to reliability of the brands listed. 30,000 is a significant
sample.


Yeh, so significant that it only included 12 brands! LMAO

30,000 surveys on 12 brands says a lot for those 12 brands, despite
your
hand
waving.


Yeah, how many of those 30,000 homeowners do you think has any knowledge
about HVAC systems? LOL

Do you ask your customers if they have any HVAC knowledge before you will
render service? Don't be so bloody stupid.


Hey Dip****, it doesn't take a genius to pick up the phone and say "hey, my
HVAC system failed, can you come out and fix it"?
On the other hand, it does take someone with HVAC knowledge to KNOW *why*
their equipment failed!
There's a difference, I'm sorry you're to ignorant to see it.


If a person's heating system doesn't work, it doesnt' work. It matters
not
what the problem is. It's a non-functioning system.


Which makes the survey a JOKE!!!
They don't know *why* their equipment failed. It most likely was caused by
an installation issue vs an equipment design failure.
Do you know no anything about the HVAC industry?


More importantly, it gives none of the surveyed systems any advantage in
the
survey.


Doesn't mean anything, just like the survey... so flush it down the toilet!


You can take that survey and flush it down the toilet where it belongs!

You keep trying to ridicule it, and you keep failing.


Nope, you're just to ignorant to actually comprehend the FACTS!!!

In article ,
kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:
But if brand X consistently outdoes brand Y in end-user results surveys,
and it is not due to X actually being better than Y, then there is
*some* factor that is making the bad dealers favor Y. So, as a
consumer, I've got better odds going with brand X.


If you want to use inaccurate survey's to make your decisions, by all means,
do so...

Can you point out how they are inaccurate? If a magazine surveys its
readers, and Brand X beats Brand Y by a statistically significant
margin, and it is not due to X actually being better, and it is not due
to poor installers favoring Y for some reason, then that would have to
mean that the readers of the magazine who pick X do a better job of
finding good installers, and the ones who pick Y are worse at picking
installers.

Why would that be? I suppose if X costs more than Y, then maybe
consumers who pick X are more careful when they pick their installers,
and get more references and recommendations, whereas the people buying
the cheaper brand might also tend to go with the cheapest installer?

--
--Tim Smith

In article ,
kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:
Which makes the survey a JOKE!!!
They don't know *why* their equipment failed. It most likely was caused by
an installation issue vs an equipment design failure.
Do you know no anything about the HVAC industry?

Let's assume you are right, and that most or all of the failures that
the consumers reported were due to installation issues.

Why did American Standard have a lower rate of installation issues than
Carrier? Why did Goodman have a higher rate of installation issues than
Trane?

--
--Tim Smith

Tim Smith wrote:

In article ,
kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


Which makes the survey a JOKE!!!
They don't know *why* their equipment failed. It most likely was caused by
an installation issue vs an equipment design failure.
Do you know no anything about the HVAC industry?



Let's assume you are right, and that most or all of the failures that
the consumers reported were due to installation issues.

Why did American Standard have a lower rate of installation issues than
Carrier? Why did Goodman have a higher rate of installation issues than
Trane?


Tim, Lennox had a high rate of repairs yet that is high priced equipment
with supposed good installers.
Were they high cost components or minor low cost components?

By the way, the installers work for the contractor that sells you the
equipment, unless it is bought by bypassing the HVAC contractor.

I doubt that you will ever give up your belief in Consumer Reports,
however in this case when it comes to heating & also central air
conditioning the survey methodology is rather meaningless. I know this
from many years of seeing why various components fail, and the majority
of the time it is not the equipment's fault.

Learn enough about HVAC so you can pick the right contractor because
that will be the main determiner of a lower repair history on the HVAC
equipment you buy.

http://www.udarrell.com/air-conditio...tent-heat.html


http://www.udarrell.com/proper_cfm_b...syste ms.html

I care about the uninformed buyers, NOT the hyped up marketer's; I am
retired & do NOT sell equipment or install it!
Kjpro knows what he is talking about on this particular CR survey
issue. - udarrell

--
WISDOM PRINCIPLE DIRECTED EMPOWERMENT COMMUNICATIONS -
THE REAL POLITICAL ISSUES and WISDOM BASED PEOPLE EMPOWERMENT

http://www.udarrell.com/

http://www.udarrell.com/my_pages2.htm
(* My Airconditioning Links, Hunting Shooting, Angus Cattle, etc.)

http://www.udarrell.com/principled_a...ju stice.html

http://www.udarrell.com/recognizing_real_enemies.html

http://jesuschristsavior.net/Beatitudes.html

http://www.antiwar.com/ ***

Reality Is Not An Easy Thing To Be Confronted With, or to Accept!

I decided to go with a 4 Ton, 14 SEER, York R-22 system ..

Your welcome.

Today, they are actually installing the system. The condenser unit
(H2RE048S061) is rated for 4 tons and the air handler (AHP60D2CH21A)
is rated for 5 tons. Is the tonnage mismatch acceptable? Or should I
insisted on a 4 ton air handler also?

On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 20:29:04 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .

You'd have to ask the people who did the survey.

I think I know where you're going with this. However, I am simply
using
the
survey as a rough guide to what other furnace owners have to say
with
regards
to reliability of the brands listed. 30,000 is a significant
sample.


Yeh, so significant that it only included 12 brands! LMAO

30,000 surveys on 12 brands says a lot for those 12 brands, despite
your
hand
waving.


Yeah, how many of those 30,000 homeowners do you think has any knowledge
about HVAC systems? LOL

Do you ask your customers if they have any HVAC knowledge before you will
render service? Don't be so bloody stupid.


Hey Dip****, it doesn't take a genius to pick up the phone and say "hey, my
HVAC system failed, can you come out and fix it"?
On the other hand, it does take someone with HVAC knowledge to KNOW *why*
their equipment failed!
There's a difference, I'm sorry you're to ignorant to see it.

The point that keeps going over your swelled head is the fact that their
system doesn't work. Period. It doesn't matter WHAT the problem is - the
fact is they have NO HEAT. There's just as much chance of a faulty install on
furnace A as furnace B. Good systems can be installed by ****ty tradesmen,
and bad systems can be installled by good techs.

If a person's heating system doesn't work, it doesnt' work. It matters
not
what the problem is. It's a non-functioning system.


Which makes the survey a JOKE!!!
They don't know *why* their equipment failed. It most likely was caused by
an installation issue vs an equipment design failure.
Do you know no anything about the HVAC industry?

You obviously have no clue as to what a survey is.

More importantly, it gives none of the surveyed systems any advantage in
the
survey.


Doesn't mean anything, just like the survey... so flush it down the toilet!


You can take that survey and flush it down the toilet where it belongs!

You keep trying to ridicule it, and you keep failing.


Nope, you're just to ignorant to actually comprehend the FACTS!!!

Withe regard to surveys, you wouldn't know a fact if it screwed you all night
long and made you breakfast in the morning.

"Tim Smith" wrote in message
...
In article ,
kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:
Which makes the survey a JOKE!!!
They don't know *why* their equipment failed. It most likely was caused
by
an installation issue vs an equipment design failure.
Do you know no anything about the HVAC industry?

Let's assume you are right, and that most or all of the failures that
the consumers reported were due to installation issues.

Why did American Standard have a lower rate of installation issues than
Carrier? Why did Goodman have a higher rate of installation issues than
Trane?


Why did my drill bit drive 100 screws before it broke?

"xModem" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 20:29:04 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .

You'd have to ask the people who did the survey.

I think I know where you're going with this. However, I am
simply
using
the
survey as a rough guide to what other furnace owners have to say
with
regards
to reliability of the brands listed. 30,000 is a significant
sample.


Yeh, so significant that it only included 12 brands! LMAO

30,000 surveys on 12 brands says a lot for those 12 brands, despite
your
hand
waving.


Yeah, how many of those 30,000 homeowners do you think has any
knowledge
about HVAC systems? LOL

Do you ask your customers if they have any HVAC knowledge before you
will
render service? Don't be so bloody stupid.


Hey Dip****, it doesn't take a genius to pick up the phone and say "hey,
my
HVAC system failed, can you come out and fix it"?
On the other hand, it does take someone with HVAC knowledge to KNOW *why*
their equipment failed!
There's a difference, I'm sorry you're to ignorant to see it.

The point that keeps going over your swelled head is the fact that their
system doesn't work. Period. It doesn't matter WHAT the problem is - the
fact is they have NO HEAT. There's just as much chance of a faulty
install on
furnace A as furnace B. Good systems can be installed by ****ty
tradesmen,
and bad systems can be installled by good techs.


Group 1
75 units of brand A was improperly installed.
25 calls were made to this group.

Group 2
75 units of brand B was improperly installed.
50 calls were made to this group.

Group 3
75 units of brand A was correctly installed.
50 calls were made to this group.

Group 4
75 units of brand B was correctly installed.
25 calls were made to this group.

Who wins the survey?
Is the survey accurate?
Does it help you in determining which brand is better?

What if brand A and B are exactly the same product?


If a person's heating system doesn't work, it doesnt' work. It matters
not
what the problem is. It's a non-functioning system.


Which makes the survey a JOKE!!!
They don't know *why* their equipment failed. It most likely was caused
by
an installation issue vs an equipment design failure.
Do you know no anything about the HVAC industry?

You obviously have no clue as to what a survey is.


I know what a survey is. I also know that this particular survey is nothing
but a JOKE!!!

Where have I heard that before?


More importantly, it gives none of the surveyed systems any advantage
in
the
survey.


Doesn't mean anything, just like the survey... so flush it down the
toilet!


You can take that survey and flush it down the toilet where it
belongs!

You keep trying to ridicule it, and you keep failing.


Nope, you're just to ignorant to actually comprehend the FACTS!!!

Withe regard to surveys, you wouldn't know a fact if it screwed you all
night
long and made you breakfast in the morning.


Sorry, but you're the one who doesn't understand the real facts that
surround this whole conversation.

Till you learn something about HVAC, I'd recommend that you not argue with
people that know what the **** their talking about!

"Tim Smith" wrote in message
...
In article ,
kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:
But if brand X consistently outdoes brand Y in end-user results
surveys,
and it is not due to X actually being better than Y, then there is
*some* factor that is making the bad dealers favor Y. So, as a
consumer, I've got better odds going with brand X.


If you want to use inaccurate survey's to make your decisions, by all
means,
do so...

Can you point out how they are inaccurate? If a magazine surveys its
readers, and Brand X beats Brand Y by a statistically significant
margin, and it is not due to X actually being better, and it is not due
to poor installers favoring Y for some reason, then that would have to
mean that the readers of the magazine who pick X do a better job of
finding good installers, and the ones who pick Y are worse at picking
installers.

Why would that be? I suppose if X costs more than Y, then maybe
consumers who pick X are more careful when they pick their installers,
and get more references and recommendations, whereas the people buying
the cheaper brand might also tend to go with the cheapest installer?


Group 1
75 units of brand A was improperly installed.
25 calls were made to this group.

Group 2
75 units of brand B was improperly installed.
50 calls were made to this group.

Group 3
75 units of brand A was correctly installed.
50 calls were made to this group.

Group 4
75 units of brand B was correctly installed.
25 calls were made to this group.

Who wins the survey?
Is the survey accurate?
Does it help you in determining which brand is better?

What if brand A and B are exactly the same product?

"jay" wrote in message
ups.com...
I decided to go with a 4 Ton, 14 SEER, York R-22 system ..

Your welcome.

Today, they are actually installing the system. The condenser unit
(H2RE048S061) is rated for 4 tons and the air handler (AHP60D2CH21A)
is rated for 5 tons. Is the tonnage mismatch acceptable? Or should I
insisted on a 4 ton air handler also?


Where are you located?

Here's the deal... both air handlers are a match for the condensing unit.

ARI # 1259865 is with the 4-ton A/H
Data... 11.0 EER 13.85 SEER 46,500 Btu

ARI # 1259870 is with the 5-ton A/H
Data... 12.0 EER 14.00 SEER 46,500 Btu

As you see, the 5-ton A/H will operate a little cheaper. But, if you're in a
high humidity area, the larger indoor unit can compromise the humidity
removal.

The real data you need to look at is the manual J (sensible/latent
requirements) and the equipment specifications (sensible/latent ratio). This
will tell you which system is the better match for your particular
structure.
Compare the requirements with the equipment data... this will 'tell the
tale'.

On Fri, 20 Jul 2007 23:53:28 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 20:29:04 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .

You'd have to ask the people who did the survey.

I think I know where you're going with this. However, I am
simply
using
the
survey as a rough guide to what other furnace owners have to say
with
regards
to reliability of the brands listed. 30,000 is a significant
sample.


Yeh, so significant that it only included 12 brands! LMAO

30,000 surveys on 12 brands says a lot for those 12 brands, despite
your
hand
waving.


Yeah, how many of those 30,000 homeowners do you think has any
knowledge
about HVAC systems? LOL

Do you ask your customers if they have any HVAC knowledge before you
will
render service? Don't be so bloody stupid.


Hey Dip****, it doesn't take a genius to pick up the phone and say "hey,
my
HVAC system failed, can you come out and fix it"?
On the other hand, it does take someone with HVAC knowledge to KNOW *why*
their equipment failed!
There's a difference, I'm sorry you're to ignorant to see it.

The point that keeps going over your swelled head is the fact that their
system doesn't work. Period. It doesn't matter WHAT the problem is - the
fact is they have NO HEAT. There's just as much chance of a faulty
install on
furnace A as furnace B. Good systems can be installed by ****ty
tradesmen,
and bad systems can be installled by good techs.


Group 1
75 units of brand A was improperly installed.
25 calls were made to this group.

Group 2
75 units of brand B was improperly installed.
50 calls were made to this group.

Group 3
75 units of brand A was correctly installed.
50 calls were made to this group.

Group 4
75 units of brand B was correctly installed.
25 calls were made to this group.

Who wins the survey?
Is the survey accurate?
Does it help you in determining which brand is better?

What if brand A and B are exactly the same product?

Wow, that's one huge sample. Almost as big as the CR one. Bwahaha.

If a person's heating system doesn't work, it doesnt' work. It matters
not
what the problem is. It's a non-functioning system.


Which makes the survey a JOKE!!!
They don't know *why* their equipment failed. It most likely was caused
by
an installation issue vs an equipment design failure.
Do you know no anything about the HVAC industry?

You obviously have no clue as to what a survey is.


I know what a survey is. I also know that this particular survey is nothing
but a JOKE!!!

Where have I heard that before?


More importantly, it gives none of the surveyed systems any advantage
in
the
survey.


Doesn't mean anything, just like the survey... so flush it down the
toilet!


You can take that survey and flush it down the toilet where it
belongs!

You keep trying to ridicule it, and you keep failing.


Nope, you're just to ignorant to actually comprehend the FACTS!!!

Withe regard to surveys, you wouldn't know a fact if it screwed you all
night
long and made you breakfast in the morning.


Sorry, but you're the one who doesn't understand the real facts that
surround this whole conversation.

Till you learn something about HVAC, I'd recommend that you not argue with
people that know what the **** their talking about!

You're obviously out of your element with regard to surveys.

Let me see if I can dumb this down for you.

You are STATISTICALLY more likely to have problems with the lower rated
furnaces than the higher ones. Doesn't matter if the installers of the lower
rated systems are ****ing morons with a toolbox consisting of a hammer and tin
snips. Installation is all built-in to the results. If a wide number of
installers of these systems are in fact hacks, then STATISTICALLY, you're more
likely to GET one of them. The point is, these systems posed more problems
for owners, and STATISTICS show your installing these systems are more likely
to give you problems than the higher rated ones. There is NOTHING you can say
that can change that.

These statistics are incontrovertible. Your arguments from incredulity and
arguments from authority (look those up), frantic hand waving, and general
attempts at obfuscation mean nothing. You can't change the FACTS.

I fully expect you'll come back with more "I know what I'm talking about.",
"You don't know as much as me.", "This survey is bull****." remarks and other
egotistical chest thumping. All of them utterly meaningless in the context of
this survey.

"xModem" wrote in message
...


Group 1
75 units of brand A was improperly installed.
25 calls were made to this group.

Group 2
75 units of brand B was improperly installed.
50 calls were made to this group.

Group 3
75 units of brand A was correctly installed.
50 calls were made to this group.

Group 4
75 units of brand B was correctly installed.
25 calls were made to this group.

Who wins the survey?
Is the survey accurate?
Does it help you in determining which brand is better?

What if brand A and B are exactly the same product?

Wow, that's one huge sample. Almost as big as the CR one. Bwahaha.


I knew you'd miss the point...


You're obviously out of your element with regard to surveys.
Let me see if I can dumb this down for you.


Are you talking about yourself again?


You are STATISTICALLY more likely to have problems with the lower rated
furnaces than the higher ones.


Please tell me why the Tempstar is #11 while Heil is #7

Tell me again how these two brands are different...


Doesn't matter if the installers of the lower
rated systems are ****ing morons with a toolbox consisting of a hammer and
tin
snips. Installation is all built-in to the results.


Which are inaccurate... but you don't care, Trane was towards the top and
that's all that matters to you.


If a wide number of
installers of these systems are in fact hacks, then STATISTICALLY, you're
more
likely to GET one of them. The point is, these systems posed more
problems
for owners, and STATISTICS show your installing these systems are more
likely
to give you problems than the higher rated ones. There is NOTHING you can
say
that can change that.


You didn't understand my example...did ya?
It's ok to say no... as I already know you didn't.


These statistics are incontrovertible. Your arguments from incredulity
and
arguments from authority (look those up), frantic hand waving, and general
attempts at obfuscation mean nothing. You can't change the FACTS.


If you call bull**** FACTS, then by all means, more power to ya.
But, if you want true results, you better wise up and re-read this thread
over and *try* to comprehend it.


I fully expect you'll come back with more "I know what I'm talking
about.",
"You don't know as much as me.", "This survey is bull****." remarks and
other
egotistical chest thumping. All of them utterly meaningless in the
context of
this survey.


If you want to believe a bull**** survey, then more power to ya.
But, if you want to portray it as an asset, then it shows you for the idiot
that you are.

You can drill it all you want, but a true professional knows BULL**** when
they see it!!!

There's no getting around it...

xModem wrote:

On Fri, 20 Jul 2007 23:53:28 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


Sorry, but you're the one who doesn't understand the real facts that

surround this whole conversation.

Until you learn something about HVAC, I'd recommend that you not argue with
people that know what they are talking about! kjpro



You're obviously out of your element with regard to surveys.

Let me see if I can dumb this down for you.

You are STATISTICALLY more likely to have problems with the lower rated
furnaces than the higher ones. Doesn't matter if the installers of the lower
rated systems are ****ing morons with a toolbox consisting of a hammer and tin
snips. Installation is all built-in to the results. If a wide number of
installers of these systems are in fact hacks, then STATISTICALLY, you're more
likely to GET one of them. The point is, these systems posed more problems
for owners, and STATISTICS show your installing these systems are more likely
to give you problems than the higher rated ones. There is NOTHING you can say
that can change that.

These statistics are incontrovertible. Your arguments from incredulity and
arguments from authority (look those up), frantic hand waving, and general
attempts at obfuscation mean nothing. You can't change the FACTS.

I fully expect you'll come back with more "I know what I'm talking about.",
"You don't know as much as me.", "This survey is bull****." remarks and other
egotistical chest thumping. All of them utterly meaningless in the context of
this survey.


We are talking about the context of the factors NOT associated with
equipment brands' that cause equipment failures which those surveys'
leave out!
They and the reader's of their survey are associating every failure to
the equipment. That is an example of a misleading survey.

Surveys are mere samplings & in respect to Air conditioning equipment
those samplings do NOT indicate the quality of the equipment, therefore,
other factors enter into a higher rate of failure for those particular
brands in any particular survey.

When you learn how to qualify the installers & techs "you will be
enabled to install the equipment with 'the best overall payback' over
the number of years you decide to keep it." Those factors are far too
involved to include in a survey!

Who knows equipment better than those who have serviced most brands &
worked on them for many decades.
That survey does NOT tell us squat concerning the actual quality &
longevity of the equipment.
It is a mere statistical survey, in another area of the country with
different owners the picture could change considerably & even then, it
is rather meaningless.

You have NO idea how numerous the factors are that result in premature
repairs!
I subscribe to CR but take some of the surveys with a grain of salt.
Survey stats can be way off base; you are welcome to believe what you
want to believe.
My choice of HVAC equipment, its performance & payback will NOT be based
on any CR survey.
http://www.udarrell.com/proper_cfm_b...syste ms.html

- udarrell

--
WISDOM PRINCIPLE DIRECTED EMPOWERMENT COMMUNICATIONS -
THE REAL POLITICAL ISSUES and WISDOM BASED PEOPLE EMPOWERMENT

http://www.udarrell.com/

http://www.udarrell.com/my_pages2.htm
(* My Airconditioning Links, Hunting Shooting, etc.)

http://www.udarrell.com/principled_a...ju stice.html

http://www.udarrell.com/recognizing_real_enemies.html

http://jesuschristsavior.net/Beatitudes.html

http://www.antiwar.com/ ***

Reality Is Not An Easy Thing To Be Confronted With, or to Accept!

On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 10:27:57 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .


Group 1
75 units of brand A was improperly installed.
25 calls were made to this group.

Group 2
75 units of brand B was improperly installed.
50 calls were made to this group.

Group 3
75 units of brand A was correctly installed.
50 calls were made to this group.

Group 4
75 units of brand B was correctly installed.
25 calls were made to this group.

Who wins the survey?
Is the survey accurate?
Does it help you in determining which brand is better?

What if brand A and B are exactly the same product?

Wow, that's one huge sample. Almost as big as the CR one. Bwahaha.


I knew you'd miss the point...

The point is, your sample size is laughable.

You're obviously out of your element with regard to surveys.
Let me see if I can dumb this down for you.


Are you talking about yourself again?

Evidently, since you're too ****ing stupid to understand.

You are STATISTICALLY more likely to have problems with the lower rated
furnaces than the higher ones.


Please tell me why the Tempstar is #11 while Heil is #7

Tell me again how these two brands are different...

No idea. Ask the 30,000+ people across the country who replied to the survey.

Doesn't matter if the installers of the lower
rated systems are ****ing morons with a toolbox consisting of a hammer and
tin
snips. Installation is all built-in to the results.


Which are inaccurate... but you don't care, Trane was towards the top and
that's all that matters to you.

Arguing with the results. Pointless and pathetic.

If a wide number of
installers of these systems are in fact hacks, then STATISTICALLY, you're
more
likely to GET one of them. The point is, these systems posed more
problems
for owners, and STATISTICS show your installing these systems are more
likely
to give you problems than the higher rated ones. There is NOTHING you can
say
that can change that.


You didn't understand my example...did ya?
It's ok to say no... as I already know you didn't.

I understand you have no idea what a significant sample size is.

These statistics are incontrovertible. Your arguments from incredulity
and
arguments from authority (look those up), frantic hand waving, and general
attempts at obfuscation mean nothing. You can't change the FACTS.


If you call bull**** FACTS, then by all means, more power to ya.
But, if you want true results, you better wise up and re-read this thread
over and *try* to comprehend it.


I fully expect you'll come back with more "I know what I'm talking
about.",
"You don't know as much as me.", "This survey is bull****." remarks and
other
egotistical chest thumping. All of them utterly meaningless in the
context of
this survey.


If you want to believe a bull**** survey, then more power to ya.

But, if you want to portray it as an asset, then it shows you for the idiot
that you are.

You can drill it all you want, but a true professional knows BULL**** when
they see it!!!

Just as I said: more self-centered chest thumping.

At the end if the day, I'll take the results of 36,181 owners of the
equipment, to an outsized-ego of an installer with a vested interest in
installing whatever he can get the maximum profit on.

"xModem" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 10:27:57 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .


Group 1
15,000 units of brand A was improperly installed.
5,000 calls were made to this group.

Group 2
15,000 units of brand B was improperly installed.
10,000 calls were made to this group.

Group 3
15,000 units of brand A was correctly installed.
10,000 calls were made to this group.

Group 4
15,000 units of brand B was correctly installed.
5,000 calls were made to this group.

Who wins the survey?
Is the survey accurate?
Does it help you in determining which brand is better?

What if brand A and B are exactly the same product?

Wow, that's one huge sample. Almost as big as the CR one. Bwahaha.


I knew you'd miss the point...

The point is, your sample size is laughable.


Do you not know how to make them numbers larger?
I made them larger to fit your bull**** report (look above).
Don't you feel pretty ignorant yet?


You're obviously out of your element with regard to surveys.
Let me see if I can dumb this down for you.


Are you talking about yourself again?

Evidently, since you're too ****ing stupid to understand.


You better start looking in the mirror.
You're about to be made into the biggest idiot that ever hit alt.home.repair
(this includes Stormin Moron) and that's saying something!


You are STATISTICALLY more likely to have problems with the lower rated
furnaces than the higher ones.


Please tell me why the Tempstar is #11 while Heil is #7

Tell me again how these two brands are different...

No idea. Ask the 30,000+ people across the country who replied to the
survey.


You have no idea, because it's the SAME ****ING EQUIPMENT!!!!!!!
Same parts, same manufacturing plant, same employees, everything is the
****ing same!!!!!!

So tell me how does 2 not equal 2?????????


Doesn't matter if the installers of the lower
rated systems are ****ing morons with a toolbox consisting of a hammer
and
tin
snips. Installation is all built-in to the results.


Which are inaccurate... but you don't care, Trane was towards the top and
that's all that matters to you.

Arguing with the results. Pointless and pathetic.


As is arguing with a complete incompetent idiot!!!!!


If a wide number of
installers of these systems are in fact hacks, then STATISTICALLY,
you're
more
likely to GET one of them. The point is, these systems posed more
problems
for owners, and STATISTICS show your installing these systems are more
likely
to give you problems than the higher rated ones. There is NOTHING you
can
say
that can change that.


You didn't understand my example...did ya?
It's ok to say no... as I already know you didn't.

I understand you have no idea what a significant sample size is.


I understand that you can't take my example and change the numbers, so I
have done it for you!


These statistics are incontrovertible. Your arguments from incredulity
and
arguments from authority (look those up), frantic hand waving, and
general
attempts at obfuscation mean nothing. You can't change the FACTS.


If you call bull**** FACTS, then by all means, more power to ya.
But, if you want true results, you better wise up and re-read this thread
over and *try* to comprehend it.


I fully expect you'll come back with more "I know what I'm talking
about.",
"You don't know as much as me.", "This survey is bull****." remarks and
other
egotistical chest thumping. All of them utterly meaningless in the
context of
this survey.


If you want to believe a bull**** survey, then more power to ya.

But, if you want to portray it as an asset, then it shows you for the
idiot
that you are.

You can drill it all you want, but a true professional knows BULL****
when
they see it!!!

Just as I said: more self-centered chest thumping.

At the end if the day, I'll take the results of 36,181 owners of the
equipment, to an outsized-ego of an installer with a vested interest in
installing whatever he can get the maximum profit on.


Hey Dip****, I'm not here to sell anything to anyone.
Get that? You don't even know who the **** I am or what the **** I do for a
living. You know absolutely nothing about me... just like that bull****
report shows/tells you nothing about which brand is better than the other.

Ask yourself these questions...

How old was each furnace?
Was they the 'top of the line' or 'bottom of the line' equipment?
Was each system maintained the same?
Was each one installed properly?
Do people have different ideas/standards of rating equipment?
Did everybody on the survey understand each question and comprehend it the
same?
Did everybody on that survey get top quality service from their service
provider?

Why did it only contain a few brands if it was so significant?
Why is the same equipment rated differently?

Your survey is CRAP, complete BULL**** and will continue to be BULL****.

You know very little about the HVAC/R industry, but you portray yourself as
an expert. And the only thing you're an expert on is posting complete
idiotic statements based on somebody else's survey. Unlike myself, I know
this field, I have my own results and FACTS that you can't understand.

If you want to continue to be an ignorant jerk, be my guest. But you will be
called on your bull**** if I read it.

It must really suck to not know anything!
Have you looked in the mirror yet?

On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 12:56:10 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 10:27:57 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .


Group 1
15,000 units of brand A was improperly installed.
5,000 calls were made to this group.

Group 2
15,000 units of brand B was improperly installed.
10,000 calls were made to this group.

Group 3
15,000 units of brand A was correctly installed.
10,000 calls were made to this group.

Group 4
15,000 units of brand B was correctly installed.
5,000 calls were made to this group.

Who wins the survey?
Is the survey accurate?
Does it help you in determining which brand is better?

What if brand A and B are exactly the same product?

Wow, that's one huge sample. Almost as big as the CR one. Bwahaha.


I knew you'd miss the point...

The point is, your sample size is laughable.


Do you not know how to make them numbers larger?

Sure. You need a larger sample set. It's the ONLY way. You can't make the
numbers "bigger" without surveying MORE PEOPLE.

I made them larger to fit your bull**** report (look above).
Don't you feel pretty ignorant yet?

Don't you feel pretty stupid yet?

You're obviously out of your element with regard to surveys.
Let me see if I can dumb this down for you.


Are you talking about yourself again?

Evidently, since you're too ****ing stupid to understand.


You better start looking in the mirror.
You're about to be made into the biggest idiot that ever hit alt.home.repair
(this includes Stormin Moron) and that's saying something!

More hand waving. LOL.

You are STATISTICALLY more likely to have problems with the lower rated
furnaces than the higher ones.


Please tell me why the Tempstar is #11 while Heil is #7

Tell me again how these two brands are different...

No idea. Ask the 30,000+ people across the country who replied to the
survey.


You have no idea, because it's the SAME ****ING EQUIPMENT!!!!!!!
Same parts, same manufacturing plant, same employees, everything is the
****ing same!!!!!!

So tell me how does 2 not equal 2?????????

IT DOESN'T MATTER in the context of the survey, idiot.

Doesn't matter if the installers of the lower
rated systems are ****ing morons with a toolbox consisting of a hammer
and
tin
snips. Installation is all built-in to the results.


Which are inaccurate... but you don't care, Trane was towards the top and
that's all that matters to you.

Arguing with the results. Pointless and pathetic.


As is arguing with a complete incompetent idiot!!!!!

You're the one who can't parse the data.

If a wide number of
installers of these systems are in fact hacks, then STATISTICALLY,
you're
more
likely to GET one of them. The point is, these systems posed more
problems
for owners, and STATISTICS show your installing these systems are more
likely
to give you problems than the higher rated ones. There is NOTHING you
can
say
that can change that.


You didn't understand my example...did ya?
It's ok to say no... as I already know you didn't.

I understand you have no idea what a significant sample size is.


I understand that you can't take my example and change the numbers, so I
have done it for you!

You must be twins. No one person could be so ****ing stupid as to make that
comment. You can't "change" the numbers.

These statistics are incontrovertible. Your arguments from incredulity
and
arguments from authority (look those up), frantic hand waving, and
general
attempts at obfuscation mean nothing. You can't change the FACTS.
want true results, you better wise up and re-read this thread
over and *try* to comprehend it.


I fully expect you'll come back with more "I know what I'm talking
about.",
"You don't know as much as me.", "This survey is bull****." remarks and
other
egotistical chest thumping. All of them utterly meaningless in the
context of
this survey.


If you want to believe a bull**** survey, then more power to ya.

But, if you want to portray it as an asset, then it shows you for the
idiot
that you are.

You can drill it all you want, but a true professional knows BULL****
when
they see it!!!

Just as I said: more self-centered chest thumping.

At the end if the day, I'll take the results of 36,181 owners of the
equipment, to an outsized-ego of an installer with a vested interest in
installing whatever he can get the maximum profit on.


Hey Dip****, I'm not here to sell anything to anyone.
Get that? You don't even know who the **** I am or what the **** I do for a
living. You know absolutely nothing about me... just like that bull****
report shows/tells you nothing about which brand is better than the other.

I don't know what you do for a living? You clown, you've already said what
you do for a living. You're an HVAC God. You've repeated it ad nauseam.
Sadly, that doesn't mean you have any comprehension skills.

Ask yourself these questions...

How old was each furnace?
Was they the 'top of the line' or 'bottom of the line' equipment?
Was each system maintained the same?
Was each one installed properly?
Do people have different ideas/standards of rating equipment?
Did everybody on the survey understand each question and comprehend it the
same?
Did everybody on that survey get top quality service from their service
provider?

Why did it only contain a few brands if it was so significant?
Why is the same equipment rated differently?

Your survey is CRAP, complete BULL**** and will continue to be BULL****.

Repeating that doesn't make it true.

You know very little about the HVAC/R industry, but you portray yourself as
an expert. And the only thing you're an expert on is posting complete
idiotic statements based on somebody else's survey. Unlike myself, I know
this field, I have my own results and FACTS that you can't understand.

If you want to continue to be an ignorant jerk, be my guest. But you will be
called on your bull**** if I read it.

It must really suck to not know anything!
Have you looked in the mirror yet?

Zzzzzzzzzz....

On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 16:17:39 GMT, udarrell wrote:

xModem wrote:

On Fri, 20 Jul 2007 23:53:28 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


Sorry, but you're the one who doesn't understand the real facts that

surround this whole conversation.

Until you learn something about HVAC, I'd recommend that you not argue with
people that know what they are talking about! kjpro



You're obviously out of your element with regard to surveys.

Let me see if I can dumb this down for you.

You are STATISTICALLY more likely to have problems with the lower rated
furnaces than the higher ones. Doesn't matter if the installers of the lower
rated systems are ****ing morons with a toolbox consisting of a hammer and tin
snips. Installation is all built-in to the results. If a wide number of
installers of these systems are in fact hacks, then STATISTICALLY, you're more
likely to GET one of them. The point is, these systems posed more problems
for owners, and STATISTICS show your installing these systems are more likely
to give you problems than the higher rated ones. There is NOTHING you can say
that can change that.

These statistics are incontrovertible. Your arguments from incredulity and
arguments from authority (look those up), frantic hand waving, and general
attempts at obfuscation mean nothing. You can't change the FACTS.

I fully expect you'll come back with more "I know what I'm talking about.",
"You don't know as much as me.", "This survey is bull****." remarks and other
egotistical chest thumping. All of them utterly meaningless in the context of
this survey.


We are talking about the context of the factors NOT associated with
equipment brands' that cause equipment failures which those surveys'
leave out!
They and the reader's of their survey are associating every failure to
the equipment. That is an example of a misleading survey.

So the owners of Goodman, in the sample, have a greater incidence of problems.
Doesn't matter who installed it, or whatever other factors. The top rated
equipment is just as susceptible to other equipment failures.

Surveys are mere samplings & in respect to Air conditioning equipment
those samplings do NOT indicate the quality of the equipment, therefore,
other factors enter into a higher rate of failure for those particular
brands in any particular survey.

Mere samplings of 36,000 people. That's significant.

When you learn how to qualify the installers & techs "you will be
enabled to install the equipment with 'the best overall payback' over
the number of years you decide to keep it." Those factors are far too
involved to include in a survey!

Don't agree at all.

Who knows equipment better than those who have serviced most brands &
worked on them for many decades.
That survey does NOT tell us squat concerning the actual quality &
longevity of the equipment.
It is a mere statistical survey, in another area of the country with
different owners the picture could change considerably & even then, it
is rather meaningless.

Longevity wasn't the purpose of the survey. The bottom rated may very well
outlast the top rated. The survey concerned the number of problems each owner
had.

You have NO idea how numerous the factors are that result in premature
repairs!
I subscribe to CR but take some of the surveys with a grain of salt.
Survey stats can be way off base; you are welcome to believe what you
want to believe.
My choice of HVAC equipment, its performance & payback will NOT be based
on any CR survey.
http://www.udarrell.com/proper_cfm_b...syste ms.html

That's your prerogative. As an ex-installer, you probably had a good idea of
what equipment you would install in your own home, and what equipment you
would avoid too.

"xModem" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 12:56:10 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 10:27:57 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .


Group 1
15,000 units of brand A was improperly installed.
5,000 calls were made to this group.

Group 2
15,000 units of brand B was improperly installed.
10,000 calls were made to this group.

Group 3
15,000 units of brand A was correctly installed.
10,000 calls were made to this group.

Group 4
15,000 units of brand B was correctly installed.
5,000 calls were made to this group.

Who wins the survey?
Is the survey accurate?
Does it help you in determining which brand is better?

What if brand A and B are exactly the same product?

Wow, that's one huge sample. Almost as big as the CR one. Bwahaha.


I knew you'd miss the point...

The point is, your sample size is laughable.


Do you not know how to make them numbers larger?

Sure. You need a larger sample set. It's the ONLY way. You can't make
the
numbers "bigger" without surveying MORE PEOPLE.


Did you even look at the new larger numbers in my example... guess not!


I made them larger to fit your bull**** report (look above).
Don't you feel pretty ignorant yet?

Don't you feel pretty stupid yet?


Yes in fact I do... I'm feeling pretty stupid for arguing with the
incompetent.


You are STATISTICALLY more likely to have problems with the lower
rated
furnaces than the higher ones.


Please tell me why the Tempstar is #11 while Heil is #7

Tell me again how these two brands are different...

No idea. Ask the 30,000+ people across the country who replied to the
survey.


You have no idea, because it's the SAME ****ING EQUIPMENT!!!!!!!
Same parts, same manufacturing plant, same employees, everything is the
****ing same!!!!!!

So tell me how does 2 not equal 2?????????

IT DOESN'T MATTER in the context of the survey, idiot.


How doesn't it matter, if you want accurate results?
Tell me again how the same equipment gets ranked differently?


If a wide number of
installers of these systems are in fact hacks, then STATISTICALLY,
you're
more
likely to GET one of them. The point is, these systems posed more
problems
for owners, and STATISTICS show your installing these systems are
more
likely
to give you problems than the higher rated ones. There is NOTHING
you
can
say
that can change that.


You didn't understand my example...did ya?
It's ok to say no... as I already know you didn't.

I understand you have no idea what a significant sample size is.


I understand that you can't take my example and change the numbers, so I
have done it for you!

You must be twins. No one person could be so ****ing stupid as to make
that
comment. You can't "change" the numbers.


Just did in my previous post, are you to incompetent to find them?


Ask yourself these questions...

How old was each furnace?
Was they the 'top of the line' or 'bottom of the line' equipment?
Was each system maintained the same?
Was each one installed properly?
Do people have different ideas/standards of rating equipment?
Did everybody on the survey understand each question and comprehend it
the
same?
Did everybody on that survey get top quality service from their service
provider?

Why did it only contain a few brands if it was so significant?
Why is the same equipment rated differently?

Your survey is CRAP, complete BULL**** and will continue to be BULL****.

Repeating that doesn't make it true.


I see you don't want to address any of the questions that make the survey a
JOKE!!!!


You know very little about the HVAC/R industry, but you portray yourself
as
an expert. And the only thing you're an expert on is posting complete
idiotic statements based on somebody else's survey. Unlike myself, I know
this field, I have my own results and FACTS that you can't understand.

If you want to continue to be an ignorant jerk, be my guest. But you will
be
called on your bull**** if I read it.

It must really suck to not know anything!
Have you looked in the mirror yet?


Yep, you're still lost little pup. One day you might understand something,
but for now, there's just no hope.

"xModem" wrote in message
...

Mere samplings of 36,000 people. That's significant.


So significant that it only included 12 brands... LMAO


Longevity wasn't the purpose of the survey. The bottom rated may very
well
outlast the top rated. The survey concerned the number of problems each
owner
had.


But how can one be at the bottom and outlast one on the top?
Wouldn't that make that brand better?

You're slipping... better get a grip!

On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 18:53:41 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .

Mere samplings of 36,000 people. That's significant.


So significant that it only included 12 brands... LMAO

Don't care. I'm only interested in the ones that *were* reported. Nothing
more.

Longevity wasn't the purpose of the survey. The bottom rated may very
well
outlast the top rated. The survey concerned the number of problems each
owner
had.


But how can one be at the bottom and outlast one on the top?
Wouldn't that make that brand better?

Not at all. Problems and longevity are two different beasts. I've had more
than my share of problems with my unit, but it's 18 years old and still going
strong. And NONE of them are related to the installation.

You're slipping... better get a grip!

Nice try, Mr Astaire.

On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 18:51:05 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 12:56:10 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 10:27:57 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .


Group 1
15,000 units of brand A was improperly installed.
5,000 calls were made to this group.

Group 2
15,000 units of brand B was improperly installed.
10,000 calls were made to this group.

Group 3
15,000 units of brand A was correctly installed.
10,000 calls were made to this group.

Group 4
15,000 units of brand B was correctly installed.
5,000 calls were made to this group.

Who wins the survey?
Is the survey accurate?
Does it help you in determining which brand is better?

What if brand A and B are exactly the same product?

Wow, that's one huge sample. Almost as big as the CR one. Bwahaha.


I knew you'd miss the point...

The point is, your sample size is laughable.


Do you not know how to make them numbers larger?

Sure. You need a larger sample set. It's the ONLY way. You can't make
the
numbers "bigger" without surveying MORE PEOPLE.


Did you even look at the new larger numbers in my example... guess not!

It doesn't change the fact that group 2 and group 3 had more problems.
Not every system that's installed sloppily will cause a problem. The clown
that put my Amana in should be shot and ****ed on. Hasn't caused any problems
though.

I made them larger to fit your bull**** report (look above).
Don't you feel pretty ignorant yet?

Don't you feel pretty stupid yet?


Yes in fact I do... I'm feeling pretty stupid for arguing with the
incompetent.


You are STATISTICALLY more likely to have problems with the lower
rated
furnaces than the higher ones.


Please tell me why the Tempstar is #11 while Heil is #7

Tell me again how these two brands are different...

No idea. Ask the 30,000+ people across the country who replied to the
survey.


You have no idea, because it's the SAME ****ING EQUIPMENT!!!!!!!
Same parts, same manufacturing plant, same employees, everything is the
****ing same!!!!!!

So tell me how does 2 not equal 2?????????

IT DOESN'T MATTER in the context of the survey, idiot.


How doesn't it matter, if you want accurate results?
Tell me again how the same equipment gets ranked differently?


If a wide number of
installers of these systems are in fact hacks, then STATISTICALLY,
you're
more
likely to GET one of them. The point is, these systems posed more
problems
for owners, and STATISTICS show your installing these systems are
more
likely
to give you problems than the higher rated ones. There is NOTHING
you
can
say
that can change that.


You didn't understand my example...did ya?
It's ok to say no... as I already know you didn't.

I understand you have no idea what a significant sample size is.


I understand that you can't take my example and change the numbers, so I
have done it for you!

You must be twins. No one person could be so ****ing stupid as to make
that
comment. You can't "change" the numbers.


Just did in my previous post, are you to incompetent to find them?


Ask yourself these questions...

How old was each furnace?
Was they the 'top of the line' or 'bottom of the line' equipment?
Was each system maintained the same?
Was each one installed properly?
Do people have different ideas/standards of rating equipment?
Did everybody on the survey understand each question and comprehend it
the
same?
Did everybody on that survey get top quality service from their service
provider?

Why did it only contain a few brands if it was so significant?
Why is the same equipment rated differently?

Your survey is CRAP, complete BULL**** and will continue to be BULL****.

Repeating that doesn't make it true.


I see you don't want to address any of the questions that make the survey a
JOKE!!!!


You know very little about the HVAC/R industry, but you portray yourself
as
an expert. And the only thing you're an expert on is posting complete
idiotic statements based on somebody else's survey. Unlike myself, I know
this field, I have my own results and FACTS that you can't understand.

If you want to continue to be an ignorant jerk, be my guest. But you will
be
called on your bull**** if I read it.

It must really suck to not know anything!
Have you looked in the mirror yet?


Yep, you're still lost little pup. One day you might understand something,
but for now, there's just no hope.

No hope understanding your inability to parse the data.

"xModem" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 18:51:05 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 12:56:10 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 10:27:57 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .


Group 1
15,000 units of brand A was improperly installed.
5,000 calls were made to this group.

Group 2
15,000 units of brand B was improperly installed.
10,000 calls were made to this group.

Group 3
15,000 units of brand A was correctly installed.
10,000 calls were made to this group.

Group 4
15,000 units of brand B was correctly installed.
5,000 calls were made to this group.

Who wins the survey?
Is the survey accurate?
Does it help you in determining which brand is better?

What if brand A and B are exactly the same product?

Wow, that's one huge sample. Almost as big as the CR one.
Bwahaha.


I knew you'd miss the point...

The point is, your sample size is laughable.


Do you not know how to make them numbers larger?

Sure. You need a larger sample set. It's the ONLY way. You can't
make
the
numbers "bigger" without surveying MORE PEOPLE.


Did you even look at the new larger numbers in my example... guess not!

It doesn't change the fact that group 2 and group 3 had more problems.
Not every system that's installed sloppily will cause a problem. The
clown
that put my Amana in should be shot and ****ed on. Hasn't caused any
problems
though.


2 and 3, can you not read a simple little example?
Geez, first I have to make the numbers larger, now you can't even read the
data correctly!
No wonder you're having problems understanding *why* the CR survey is
BULL****!


I made them larger to fit your bull**** report (look above).
Don't you feel pretty ignorant yet?

Don't you feel pretty stupid yet?


Yes in fact I do... I'm feeling pretty stupid for arguing with the
incompetent.


You are STATISTICALLY more likely to have problems with the lower
rated
furnaces than the higher ones.


Please tell me why the Tempstar is #11 while Heil is #7

Tell me again how these two brands are different...

No idea. Ask the 30,000+ people across the country who replied to
the
survey.


You have no idea, because it's the SAME ****ING EQUIPMENT!!!!!!!
Same parts, same manufacturing plant, same employees, everything is
the
****ing same!!!!!!

So tell me how does 2 not equal 2?????????

IT DOESN'T MATTER in the context of the survey, idiot.


How doesn't it matter, if you want accurate results?
Tell me again how the same equipment gets ranked differently?


If a wide number of
installers of these systems are in fact hacks, then
STATISTICALLY,
you're
more
likely to GET one of them. The point is, these systems posed
more
problems
for owners, and STATISTICS show your installing these systems are
more
likely
to give you problems than the higher rated ones. There is
NOTHING
you
can
say
that can change that.


You didn't understand my example...did ya?
It's ok to say no... as I already know you didn't.

I understand you have no idea what a significant sample size is.


I understand that you can't take my example and change the numbers, so
I
have done it for you!

You must be twins. No one person could be so ****ing stupid as to make
that
comment. You can't "change" the numbers.


Just did in my previous post, are you to incompetent to find them?


Ask yourself these questions...

How old was each furnace?
Was they the 'top of the line' or 'bottom of the line' equipment?
Was each system maintained the same?
Was each one installed properly?
Do people have different ideas/standards of rating equipment?
Did everybody on the survey understand each question and comprehend it
the
same?
Did everybody on that survey get top quality service from their
service
provider?

Why did it only contain a few brands if it was so significant?
Why is the same equipment rated differently?

Your survey is CRAP, complete BULL**** and will continue to be
BULL****.

Repeating that doesn't make it true.


I see you don't want to address any of the questions that make the survey
a
JOKE!!!!


Still don't want to address the questions?

Here, I'll add a few more...

What if a manufacture was having a defect during a certain time period, but
that defect was found and corrected?
Does that change the outcome on the survey?
Or what if the new equipment isn't the same as the equipment in the survey?
Companies will often change a design that will show problems in a couple
months or years down the road, what if you have one of these units?
But wait, they corrected the issue... so, is their unit still trash?

How long do you want to drag this out?

The survey is a JOKE and *isn't* based on true facts. For that reason, you
will *not* win this debate!

"xModem" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 18:53:41 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .

Mere samplings of 36,000 people. That's significant.


So significant that it only included 12 brands... LMAO

Don't care. I'm only interested in the ones that *were* reported.
Nothing
more.


If you don't care, then why are you putting so much faith in their bull****
survey?


Longevity wasn't the purpose of the survey. The bottom rated may very
well
outlast the top rated. The survey concerned the number of problems
each
owner
had.


But how can one be at the bottom and outlast one on the top?
Wouldn't that make that brand better?

Not at all. Problems and longevity are two different beasts. I've had
more
than my share of problems with my unit, but it's 18 years old and still
going
strong. And NONE of them are related to the installation.

You're slipping... better get a grip!

Nice try, Mr Astaire.

Try?
It's all part of the overall picture that you want to overlook.
How many other items are you willing to overlook, that effect the *true*
FACTS?

On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 22:35:50 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 18:51:05 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 12:56:10 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 10:27:57 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .


Group 1
15,000 units of brand A was improperly installed.
5,000 calls were made to this group.

Group 2
15,000 units of brand B was improperly installed.
10,000 calls were made to this group.

Group 3
15,000 units of brand A was correctly installed.
10,000 calls were made to this group.

Group 4
15,000 units of brand B was correctly installed.
5,000 calls were made to this group.

Who wins the survey?
Is the survey accurate?
Does it help you in determining which brand is better?

What if brand A and B are exactly the same product?

Wow, that's one huge sample. Almost as big as the CR one.
Bwahaha.


I knew you'd miss the point...

The point is, your sample size is laughable.


Do you not know how to make them numbers larger?

Sure. You need a larger sample set. It's the ONLY way. You can't
make
the
numbers "bigger" without surveying MORE PEOPLE.


Did you even look at the new larger numbers in my example... guess not!

It doesn't change the fact that group 2 and group 3 had more problems.
Not every system that's installed sloppily will cause a problem. The
clown
that put my Amana in should be shot and ****ed on. Hasn't caused any
problems
though.


2 and 3, can you not read a simple little example?
Geez, first I have to make the numbers larger, now you can't even read the
data correctly!
No wonder you're having problems understanding *why* the CR survey is
BULL****!

You're making your own data up. I expect nothing less from you.

I made them larger to fit your bull**** report (look above).
Don't you feel pretty ignorant yet?

Don't you feel pretty stupid yet?


Yes in fact I do... I'm feeling pretty stupid for arguing with the
incompetent.


You are STATISTICALLY more likely to have problems with the lower
rated
furnaces than the higher ones.


Please tell me why the Tempstar is #11 while Heil is #7

Tell me again how these two brands are different...

No idea. Ask the 30,000+ people across the country who replied to
the
survey.


You have no idea, because it's the SAME ****ING EQUIPMENT!!!!!!!
Same parts, same manufacturing plant, same employees, everything is
the
****ing same!!!!!!

So tell me how does 2 not equal 2?????????

IT DOESN'T MATTER in the context of the survey, idiot.


How doesn't it matter, if you want accurate results?
Tell me again how the same equipment gets ranked differently?


If a wide number of
installers of these systems are in fact hacks, then
STATISTICALLY,
you're
more
likely to GET one of them. The point is, these systems posed
more
problems
for owners, and STATISTICS show your installing these systems are
more
likely
to give you problems than the higher rated ones. There is
NOTHING
you
can
say
that can change that.


You didn't understand my example...did ya?
It's ok to say no... as I already know you didn't.

I understand you have no idea what a significant sample size is.


I understand that you can't take my example and change the numbers, so
I
have done it for you!

You must be twins. No one person could be so ****ing stupid as to make
that
comment. You can't "change" the numbers.


Just did in my previous post, are you to incompetent to find them?


Ask yourself these questions...

How old was each furnace?
Was they the 'top of the line' or 'bottom of the line' equipment?
Was each system maintained the same?
Was each one installed properly?
Do people have different ideas/standards of rating equipment?
Did everybody on the survey understand each question and comprehend it
the
same?
Did everybody on that survey get top quality service from their
service
provider?

Why did it only contain a few brands if it was so significant?
Why is the same equipment rated differently?

Your survey is CRAP, complete BULL**** and will continue to be
BULL****.

Repeating that doesn't make it true.


I see you don't want to address any of the questions that make the survey
a
JOKE!!!!


Still don't want to address the questions?

Here, I'll add a few more...

What if a manufacture was having a defect during a certain time period, but
that defect was found and corrected?
Does that change the outcome on the survey?
Or what if the new equipment isn't the same as the equipment in the survey?
Companies will often change a design that will show problems in a couple
months or years down the road, what if you have one of these units?
But wait, they corrected the issue... so, is their unit still trash?

If a manufacturer was having problems, and sold a bunch of units, then there
is a problem. So he corrected it. Lots of people got stuck with their ****.

Again, your speculation and bafflegab mean nothing.

How long do you want to drag this out?

As long as you keep making up nonsense.

The survey is a JOKE and *isn't* based on true facts. For that reason, you
will *not* win this debate!

The survey is genuine, asshole. I already told you why you don't like the
results.

On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 22:40:49 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 18:53:41 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .

Mere samplings of 36,000 people. That's significant.


So significant that it only included 12 brands... LMAO

Don't care. I'm only interested in the ones that *were* reported.
Nothing
more.


If you don't care, then why are you putting so much faith in their bull****
survey?

Learn to read, Einstein. I said I was only concerned with the manufacturers
in the survey. Besides, YOU are the one who said the manufacturer was moot,
and that it all came down to the installer.

Longevity wasn't the purpose of the survey. The bottom rated may very
well
outlast the top rated. The survey concerned the number of problems
each
owner
had.


But how can one be at the bottom and outlast one on the top?
Wouldn't that make that brand better?

Not at all. Problems and longevity are two different beasts. I've had
more
than my share of problems with my unit, but it's 18 years old and still
going
strong. And NONE of them are related to the installation.

You're slipping... better get a grip!

Nice try, Mr Astaire.

Try?
It's all part of the overall picture that you want to overlook.
How many other items are you willing to overlook, that effect the *true*
FACTS?

You keep rambling on about the True Facts. You keep making up your own data.
I gave you the FACTS. You just keep dancing around them

"xModem" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 22:35:50 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 18:51:05 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 12:56:10 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 10:27:57 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .


Group 1
15,000 units of brand A was improperly installed.
5,000 calls were made to this group.

Group 2
15,000 units of brand B was improperly installed.
10,000 calls were made to this group.

Group 3
15,000 units of brand A was correctly installed.
10,000 calls were made to this group.

Group 4
15,000 units of brand B was correctly installed.
5,000 calls were made to this group.

Who wins the survey?
Is the survey accurate?
Does it help you in determining which brand is better?

What if brand A and B are exactly the same product?

Wow, that's one huge sample. Almost as big as the CR one.
Bwahaha.


I knew you'd miss the point...

The point is, your sample size is laughable.


Do you not know how to make them numbers larger?

Sure. You need a larger sample set. It's the ONLY way. You can't
make
the
numbers "bigger" without surveying MORE PEOPLE.


Did you even look at the new larger numbers in my example... guess
not!

It doesn't change the fact that group 2 and group 3 had more problems.
Not every system that's installed sloppily will cause a problem. The
clown
that put my Amana in should be shot and ****ed on. Hasn't caused any
problems
though.


2 and 3, can you not read a simple little example?
Geez, first I have to make the numbers larger, now you can't even read
the
data correctly!
No wonder you're having problems understanding *why* the CR survey is
BULL****!

You're making your own data up. I expect nothing less from you.


*You* read it, *you* made *your* statement about it, I didn't change the
data...
I'm sorry this confused your little brain.

You want me to hold your hand while I explain EVERYTHING to you?

Geez, how in the hell do you make it through the day?


I made them larger to fit your bull**** report (look above).
Don't you feel pretty ignorant yet?

Don't you feel pretty stupid yet?


Yes in fact I do... I'm feeling pretty stupid for arguing with the
incompetent.


You are STATISTICALLY more likely to have problems with the
lower
rated
furnaces than the higher ones.


Please tell me why the Tempstar is #11 while Heil is #7

Tell me again how these two brands are different...

No idea. Ask the 30,000+ people across the country who replied
to
the
survey.


You have no idea, because it's the SAME ****ING EQUIPMENT!!!!!!!
Same parts, same manufacturing plant, same employees, everything is
the
****ing same!!!!!!

So tell me how does 2 not equal 2?????????

IT DOESN'T MATTER in the context of the survey, idiot.


How doesn't it matter, if you want accurate results?
Tell me again how the same equipment gets ranked differently?


If a wide number of
installers of these systems are in fact hacks, then
STATISTICALLY,
you're
more
likely to GET one of them. The point is, these systems posed
more
problems
for owners, and STATISTICS show your installing these systems
are
more
likely
to give you problems than the higher rated ones. There is
NOTHING
you
can
say
that can change that.


You didn't understand my example...did ya?
It's ok to say no... as I already know you didn't.

I understand you have no idea what a significant sample size is.


I understand that you can't take my example and change the numbers,
so
I
have done it for you!

You must be twins. No one person could be so ****ing stupid as to
make
that
comment. You can't "change" the numbers.


Just did in my previous post, are you to incompetent to find them?


Ask yourself these questions...

How old was each furnace?
Was they the 'top of the line' or 'bottom of the line' equipment?
Was each system maintained the same?
Was each one installed properly?
Do people have different ideas/standards of rating equipment?
Did everybody on the survey understand each question and comprehend
it
the
same?
Did everybody on that survey get top quality service from their
service
provider?

Why did it only contain a few brands if it was so significant?
Why is the same equipment rated differently?

Your survey is CRAP, complete BULL**** and will continue to be
BULL****.

Repeating that doesn't make it true.


I see you don't want to address any of the questions that make the
survey
a
JOKE!!!!


Still don't want to address the questions?

Here, I'll add a few more...

What if a manufacture was having a defect during a certain time period,
but
that defect was found and corrected?
Does that change the outcome on the survey?
Or what if the new equipment isn't the same as the equipment in the
survey?
Companies will often change a design that will show problems in a couple
months or years down the road, what if you have one of these units?
But wait, they corrected the issue... so, is their unit still trash?

If a manufacturer was having problems, and sold a bunch of units, then
there
is a problem. So he corrected it. Lots of people got stuck with their
****.

Again, your speculation and bafflegab mean nothing.

How long do you want to drag this out?

As long as you keep making up nonsense.


The only nonsense that's here is being posted by yourself.
At least I can read and comprehend a little survey that someone makes up for
an example... LMAO


The survey is a JOKE and *isn't* based on true facts. For that reason,
you
will *not* win this debate!

The survey is genuine, asshole. I already told you why you don't like the
results.


But, I told you (even if the survey wasn't bull****), I'm not trying to sell
anyone here anything.
I'll install whatever brand the client requests... so how does this
'bull****' survey effect my business?

When are you going to post something that isn't just more bull****?

Are you ready to answer my questions yet?
You keep ignoring them... I wonder why? LOL

"xModem" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 22:40:49 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 18:53:41 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .

Mere samplings of 36,000 people. That's significant.


So significant that it only included 12 brands... LMAO

Don't care. I'm only interested in the ones that *were* reported.
Nothing
more.


If you don't care, then why are you putting so much faith in their
bull****
survey?

Learn to read, Einstein. I said I was only concerned with the
manufacturers
in the survey. Besides, YOU are the one who said the manufacturer was
moot,
and that it all came down to the installer.


Yep, the installer *is* the key to a system that will provide you with years
of comfort and reliability.

You can't argue with FACTS, boy!


Longevity wasn't the purpose of the survey. The bottom rated may
very
well
outlast the top rated. The survey concerned the number of problems
each
owner
had.


But how can one be at the bottom and outlast one on the top?
Wouldn't that make that brand better?

Not at all. Problems and longevity are two different beasts. I've had
more
than my share of problems with my unit, but it's 18 years old and still
going
strong. And NONE of them are related to the installation.

You're slipping... better get a grip!

Nice try, Mr Astaire.

Try?
It's all part of the overall picture that you want to overlook.
How many other items are you willing to overlook, that effect the *true*
FACTS?

You keep rambling on about the True Facts. You keep making up your own
data.
I gave you the FACTS. You just keep dancing around them


Keep making up data? Where?
I made up an example to show you why your little 'survey' was complete crap.
Then you couldn't even read the damn thing correctly! LOL

I'm still waiting for you to answer my questions pertaining to the outcome
of the original CR survey. Why are you scared to answer them? Are you afraid
that your answer will make you look worst than you already do? If that's
possible. LOL

On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 23:04:37 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 22:35:50 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 18:51:05 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 12:56:10 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 10:27:57 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .


Group 1
15,000 units of brand A was improperly installed.
5,000 calls were made to this group.

Group 2
15,000 units of brand B was improperly installed.
10,000 calls were made to this group.

Group 3
15,000 units of brand A was correctly installed.
10,000 calls were made to this group.

Group 4
15,000 units of brand B was correctly installed.
5,000 calls were made to this group.

Who wins the survey?
Is the survey accurate?
Does it help you in determining which brand is better?

What if brand A and B are exactly the same product?

Wow, that's one huge sample. Almost as big as the CR one.
Bwahaha.


I knew you'd miss the point...

The point is, your sample size is laughable.


Do you not know how to make them numbers larger?

Sure. You need a larger sample set. It's the ONLY way. You can't
make
the
numbers "bigger" without surveying MORE PEOPLE.


Did you even look at the new larger numbers in my example... guess
not!

It doesn't change the fact that group 2 and group 3 had more problems.
Not every system that's installed sloppily will cause a problem. The
clown
that put my Amana in should be shot and ****ed on. Hasn't caused any
problems
though.


2 and 3, can you not read a simple little example?
Geez, first I have to make the numbers larger, now you can't even read
the
data correctly!
No wonder you're having problems understanding *why* the CR survey is
BULL****!

You're making your own data up. I expect nothing less from you.


*You* read it, *you* made *your* statement about it, I didn't change the
data...
I'm sorry this confused your little brain.

You want me to hold your hand while I explain EVERYTHING to you?

Content: 0
Bull****: 10

Geez, how in the hell do you make it through the day?

Watching you dance.


I made them larger to fit your bull**** report (look above).
Don't you feel pretty ignorant yet?

Don't you feel pretty stupid yet?


Yes in fact I do... I'm feeling pretty stupid for arguing with the
incompetent.


You are STATISTICALLY more likely to have problems with the
lower
rated
furnaces than the higher ones.


Please tell me why the Tempstar is #11 while Heil is #7

Tell me again how these two brands are different...

No idea. Ask the 30,000+ people across the country who replied
to
the
survey.


You have no idea, because it's the SAME ****ING EQUIPMENT!!!!!!!
Same parts, same manufacturing plant, same employees, everything is
the
****ing same!!!!!!

So tell me how does 2 not equal 2?????????

IT DOESN'T MATTER in the context of the survey, idiot.


How doesn't it matter, if you want accurate results?
Tell me again how the same equipment gets ranked differently?


If a wide number of
installers of these systems are in fact hacks, then
STATISTICALLY,
you're
more
likely to GET one of them. The point is, these systems posed
more
problems
for owners, and STATISTICS show your installing these systems
are
more
likely
to give you problems than the higher rated ones. There is
NOTHING
you
can
say
that can change that.


You didn't understand my example...did ya?
It's ok to say no... as I already know you didn't.

I understand you have no idea what a significant sample size is.


I understand that you can't take my example and change the numbers,
so
I
have done it for you!

You must be twins. No one person could be so ****ing stupid as to
make
that
comment. You can't "change" the numbers.


Just did in my previous post, are you to incompetent to find them?


Ask yourself these questions...

How old was each furnace?
Was they the 'top of the line' or 'bottom of the line' equipment?
Was each system maintained the same?
Was each one installed properly?
Do people have different ideas/standards of rating equipment?
Did everybody on the survey understand each question and comprehend
it
the
same?
Did everybody on that survey get top quality service from their
service
provider?

Why did it only contain a few brands if it was so significant?
Why is the same equipment rated differently?

Your survey is CRAP, complete BULL**** and will continue to be
BULL****.

Repeating that doesn't make it true.


I see you don't want to address any of the questions that make the
survey
a
JOKE!!!!


Still don't want to address the questions?

Here, I'll add a few more...

What if a manufacture was having a defect during a certain time period,
but
that defect was found and corrected?
Does that change the outcome on the survey?
Or what if the new equipment isn't the same as the equipment in the
survey?
Companies will often change a design that will show problems in a couple
months or years down the road, what if you have one of these units?
But wait, they corrected the issue... so, is their unit still trash?

If a manufacturer was having problems, and sold a bunch of units, then
there
is a problem. So he corrected it. Lots of people got stuck with their
****.

Again, your speculation and bafflegab mean nothing.

How long do you want to drag this out?

As long as you keep making up nonsense.


The only nonsense that's here is being posted by yourself.
At least I can read and comprehend a little survey that someone makes up for
an example... LMAO

Your faux survey? LOL.

The survey is a JOKE and *isn't* based on true facts. For that reason,
you
will *not* win this debate!

The survey is genuine, asshole. I already told you why you don't like the
results.

That's the 10th time you've said that. It's still bull****.

But, I told you (even if the survey wasn't bull****), I'm not trying to sell
anyone here anything.
I'll install whatever brand the client requests... so how does this
'bull****' survey effect my business?

How often does the "client" request a brand? I'll guess, hardly ever. They
leave it to the judgement of the installer.

When are you going to post something that isn't just more bull****?

Are you ready to answer my questions yet?
You keep ignoring them... I wonder why? LOL

You haven't posting anything with content, other than your own manufactured
"survey".

On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 23:09:38 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 22:40:49 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 18:53:41 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .

Mere samplings of 36,000 people. That's significant.


So significant that it only included 12 brands... LMAO

Don't care. I'm only interested in the ones that *were* reported.
Nothing
more.


If you don't care, then why are you putting so much faith in their
bull****
survey?

Learn to read, Einstein. I said I was only concerned with the
manufacturers
in the survey. Besides, YOU are the one who said the manufacturer was
moot,
and that it all came down to the installer.


Yep, the installer *is* the key to a system that will provide you with years
of comfort and reliability.

The installer I got (recommended by family) did a sloppy-assed job. My unit is
18 years old.
Proper *maintenance* has been the longevity factor in my case.

You can't argue with FACTS, boy!

**** you and your boy.

Longevity wasn't the purpose of the survey. The bottom rated may
very
well
outlast the top rated. The survey concerned the number of problems
each
owner
had.


But how can one be at the bottom and outlast one on the top?
Wouldn't that make that brand better?

Not at all. Problems and longevity are two different beasts. I've had
more
than my share of problems with my unit, but it's 18 years old and still
going
strong. And NONE of them are related to the installation.

You're slipping... better get a grip!

Nice try, Mr Astaire.

Try?
It's all part of the overall picture that you want to overlook.
How many other items are you willing to overlook, that effect the *true*
FACTS?

You keep rambling on about the True Facts. You keep making up your own
data.
I gave you the FACTS. You just keep dancing around them


Keep making up data? Where?

Your faux survey.

I made up an example to show you why your little 'survey' was complete crap.
Then you couldn't even read the damn thing correctly! LOL

No, you didn't. You pulled a survey out of your ass, completely made up.

I'm still waiting for you to answer my questions pertaining to the outcome
of the original CR survey. Why are you scared to answer them? Are you afraid
that your answer will make you look worst than you already do? If that's
possible. LOL

What outcome? What "outcome" do you expect? It's a survey, FFS. It speaks
for itself. That you don't like it is of no consequence
And I'm not "afraid" of anything, Fred.

"xModem" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 23:04:37 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 22:35:50 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 18:51:05 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 12:56:10 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 10:27:57 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com
wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .


Group 1
15,000 units of brand A was improperly installed.
5,000 calls were made to this group.

Group 2
15,000 units of brand B was improperly installed.
10,000 calls were made to this group.

Group 3
15,000 units of brand A was correctly installed.
10,000 calls were made to this group.

Group 4
15,000 units of brand B was correctly installed.
5,000 calls were made to this group.

Who wins the survey?
Is the survey accurate?
Does it help you in determining which brand is better?

What if brand A and B are exactly the same product?

Wow, that's one huge sample. Almost as big as the CR one.
Bwahaha.


I knew you'd miss the point...

The point is, your sample size is laughable.


Do you not know how to make them numbers larger?

Sure. You need a larger sample set. It's the ONLY way. You
can't
make
the
numbers "bigger" without surveying MORE PEOPLE.


Did you even look at the new larger numbers in my example... guess
not!

It doesn't change the fact that group 2 and group 3 had more
problems.
Not every system that's installed sloppily will cause a problem.
The
clown
that put my Amana in should be shot and ****ed on. Hasn't caused
any
problems
though.


2 and 3, can you not read a simple little example?
Geez, first I have to make the numbers larger, now you can't even read
the
data correctly!
No wonder you're having problems understanding *why* the CR survey is
BULL****!

You're making your own data up. I expect nothing less from you.


*You* read it, *you* made *your* statement about it, I didn't change the
data...
I'm sorry this confused your little brain.

You want me to hold your hand while I explain EVERYTHING to you?

Content: 0
Bull****: 10


Understand a survey: 0
Want to argue over surveys: 10


Geez, how in the hell do you make it through the day?

Watching you dance.


Just posting facts that you can't understand and continually want to ignore.


I made them larger to fit your bull**** report (look above).
Don't you feel pretty ignorant yet?

Don't you feel pretty stupid yet?


Yes in fact I do... I'm feeling pretty stupid for arguing with the
incompetent.


You are STATISTICALLY more likely to have problems with the
lower
rated
furnaces than the higher ones.


Please tell me why the Tempstar is #11 while Heil is #7

Tell me again how these two brands are different...

No idea. Ask the 30,000+ people across the country who
replied
to
the
survey.


You have no idea, because it's the SAME ****ING EQUIPMENT!!!!!!!
Same parts, same manufacturing plant, same employees, everything
is
the
****ing same!!!!!!

So tell me how does 2 not equal 2?????????

IT DOESN'T MATTER in the context of the survey, idiot.


How doesn't it matter, if you want accurate results?
Tell me again how the same equipment gets ranked differently?


If a wide number of
installers of these systems are in fact hacks, then
STATISTICALLY,
you're
more
likely to GET one of them. The point is, these systems
posed
more
problems
for owners, and STATISTICS show your installing these
systems
are
more
likely
to give you problems than the higher rated ones. There is
NOTHING
you
can
say
that can change that.


You didn't understand my example...did ya?
It's ok to say no... as I already know you didn't.

I understand you have no idea what a significant sample size
is.


I understand that you can't take my example and change the
numbers,
so
I
have done it for you!

You must be twins. No one person could be so ****ing stupid as
to
make
that
comment. You can't "change" the numbers.


Just did in my previous post, are you to incompetent to find them?


Ask yourself these questions...

How old was each furnace?
Was they the 'top of the line' or 'bottom of the line'
equipment?
Was each system maintained the same?
Was each one installed properly?
Do people have different ideas/standards of rating equipment?
Did everybody on the survey understand each question and
comprehend
it
the
same?
Did everybody on that survey get top quality service from their
service
provider?

Why did it only contain a few brands if it was so significant?
Why is the same equipment rated differently?

Your survey is CRAP, complete BULL**** and will continue to be
BULL****.

Repeating that doesn't make it true.


I see you don't want to address any of the questions that make the
survey
a
JOKE!!!!


Still don't want to address the questions?

Here, I'll add a few more...

What if a manufacture was having a defect during a certain time
period,
but
that defect was found and corrected?
Does that change the outcome on the survey?
Or what if the new equipment isn't the same as the equipment in the
survey?
Companies will often change a design that will show problems in a
couple
months or years down the road, what if you have one of these units?
But wait, they corrected the issue... so, is their unit still trash?

If a manufacturer was having problems, and sold a bunch of units, then
there
is a problem. So he corrected it. Lots of people got stuck with their
****.

Again, your speculation and bafflegab mean nothing.

How long do you want to drag this out?

As long as you keep making up nonsense.


The only nonsense that's here is being posted by yourself.
At least I can read and comprehend a little survey that someone makes up
for
an example... LMAO

Your faux survey? LOL.


You can't even understand a simple survey, yet you want to argue with its
content. LOL


The survey is a JOKE and *isn't* based on true facts. For that reason,
you
will *not* win this debate!

The survey is genuine, asshole. I already told you why you don't like
the
results.

That's the 10th time you've said that. It's still bull****.


Yes, the CR survey *is* bull****... I think you're starting to finally 'get
it'.


But, I told you (even if the survey wasn't bull****), I'm not trying to
sell
anyone here anything.
I'll install whatever brand the client requests... so how does this
'bull****' survey effect my business?

How often does the "client" request a brand? I'll guess, hardly ever.
They
leave it to the judgement of the installer.


What's your point? Or did you even have one?


When are you going to post something that isn't just more bull****?

Are you ready to answer my questions yet?
You keep ignoring them... I wonder why? LOL

You haven't posting anything with content, other than your own
manufactured
"survey".


I have posted 'why' their survey is a JOKE.
I have posted 'questions' to 'why' their survey is a JOKE.
You won't even answer the questions that I asked of you... because deep down
in that thing above your shoulders (that you call a brain), you KNOW I'm
right! Just admit it and go on. You can't win something that you don't even
understand. LOL

Do you want some help comprehending surveys?

Get a clue, boy!

"xModem" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 23:09:38 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 22:40:49 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 18:53:41 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .

Mere samplings of 36,000 people. That's significant.


So significant that it only included 12 brands... LMAO

Don't care. I'm only interested in the ones that *were* reported.
Nothing
more.


If you don't care, then why are you putting so much faith in their
bull****
survey?

Learn to read, Einstein. I said I was only concerned with the
manufacturers
in the survey. Besides, YOU are the one who said the manufacturer was
moot,
and that it all came down to the installer.


Yep, the installer *is* the key to a system that will provide you with
years
of comfort and reliability.

The installer I got (recommended by family) did a sloppy-assed job. My
unit is
18 years old.
Proper *maintenance* has been the longevity factor in my case.


Point? How does this pertain to the survey?
How does this validate your survey?


You can't argue with FACTS, boy!

**** you and your boy.


Sorry, I'm not into ****ing little boys... I didn't know you was, sorry I
brought up something that's a touchy subject for you.


Longevity wasn't the purpose of the survey. The bottom rated may
very
well
outlast the top rated. The survey concerned the number of
problems
each
owner
had.


But how can one be at the bottom and outlast one on the top?
Wouldn't that make that brand better?

Not at all. Problems and longevity are two different beasts. I've
had
more
than my share of problems with my unit, but it's 18 years old and
still
going
strong. And NONE of them are related to the installation.

You're slipping... better get a grip!

Nice try, Mr Astaire.

Try?
It's all part of the overall picture that you want to overlook.
How many other items are you willing to overlook, that effect the
*true*
FACTS?

You keep rambling on about the True Facts. You keep making up your own
data.
I gave you the FACTS. You just keep dancing around them


Keep making up data? Where?

Your faux survey.


It's an example, I'm sorry that you can't understand it, boy!


I made up an example to show you why your little 'survey' was complete
crap.
Then you couldn't even read the damn thing correctly! LOL

No, you didn't. You pulled a survey out of your ass, completely made up.


That you read and couldn't understand. Sorry it was so complicated. LOL
Maybe I'll get a little boy to explain it to you... Ooops, that may be a
mistake!


I'm still waiting for you to answer my questions pertaining to the
outcome
of the original CR survey. Why are you scared to answer them? Are you
afraid
that your answer will make you look worst than you already do? If that's
possible. LOL

What outcome? What "outcome" do you expect? It's a survey, FFS. It
speaks
for itself. That you don't like it is of no consequence
And I'm not "afraid" of anything, Fred.


I didn't say I didn't like it, I said that it's complete BULL****. Do you
get that?
I could careless what it says, it's just more BULL**** that gets published
in a BULL**** magazine.

You must think it's some kind of bible... sorry, but the survey is BULL****.

I would think that if you're into surveys so much that you could at least
read and comprehend a simple example. LOL

kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:

"xModem" wrote in message
.. .


On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 23:09:38 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


I didn't say I didn't like it, I said that it's complete BULL****. Do you

get that?
I could careless what it says, it's just more BULL**** that gets published
in a BULL**** magazine.

You must think it's some kind of bible... sorry, but the survey is BULL****.

I would think that if you're into surveys so much that you could at least
read and comprehend a simple example. LOL


Well kjpro, he will never get it, or give up his argument that the
survey predicts equipment brand reliability.
There will always be individuals who believe they know more than the
service techs who work on the majority of those equipment brands, both
in & not listed in that survey.

kjpro, I know that your points & questions are valid because of my
direct experience in the field, he only recognizes a survey that leaves
out all the requisite factors that must be included for even a somewhat
valid survey. Does he have a connection with CR, or is he simply closed
minded, or does he just trust statistics based on inadequate premises
toward predicting equipment brand repair frequency. CR needs to be a
lot more careful when they evaluate equipment based on shallow sample
surveys.

In the HVAC equipment field, Factors other than the equipment brand are
the major contributors toward higher levels of component failures.
If there are particular component problems, each company addresses &
eliminates those issues ASAP.
(He will NOT accept those realities, additionally, most readers' of CR
probably believe as xmodem believes.)

You can make folks believe almost anything with shallow based
statistical surveys!
No offense to you xmodem, believe what you want to, & buy on that survey.
I would go for the best payback plus equipment qualities, proper sizing
& especially a quality installation, - which might or might not be a
Goodman brand.
- udarrell

--
WISDOM PRINCIPLE DIRECTED EMPOWERMENT COMMUNICATIONS -
THE REAL POLITICAL ISSUES and WISDOM BASED PEOPLE EMPOWERMENT

http://www.udarrell.com/

http://www.udarrell.com/my_pages2.htm
(* My Airconditioning Links, Hunting Shooting, Angus Cattle, etc.)

http://www.udarrell.com/principled_a...ju stice.html

http://www.udarrell.com/recognizing_real_enemies.html

http://jesuschristsavior.net/Beatitudes.html

http://www.antiwar.com/ ***

Reality Is Not An Easy Thing To Be Confronted With, or to Accept!

On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 23:29:55 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:

Snip extraneous bull****.

Do you want some help comprehending surveys?

I can understand surveys. You haven't provided one, other than the figures
you pulled out of your ass.

I provided a survey. You chose to argue with its contents.

Get a clue, boy!

Yawn.

On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 23:38:16 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 23:09:38 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 22:40:49 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 18:53:41 -0500, kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:


"xModem" wrote in message
.. .

Mere samplings of 36,000 people. That's significant.


So significant that it only included 12 brands... LMAO

Don't care. I'm only interested in the ones that *were* reported.
Nothing
more.


If you don't care, then why are you putting so much faith in their
bull****
survey?

Learn to read, Einstein. I said I was only concerned with the
manufacturers
in the survey. Besides, YOU are the one who said the manufacturer was
moot,
and that it all came down to the installer.


Yep, the installer *is* the key to a system that will provide you with
years
of comfort and reliability.

The installer I got (recommended by family) did a sloppy-assed job. My
unit is
18 years old.
Proper *maintenance* has been the longevity factor in my case.


Point? How does this pertain to the survey?
How does this validate your survey?

It's not MY survey, you pig-ignorant asshat. The survey doesn't require
anyone's validation.

You can't argue with FACTS, boy!

**** you and your boy.


Sorry, I'm not into ****ing little boys... I didn't know you was, sorry I
brought up something that's a touchy subject for you.

You have no content, so you stoop to pedophilia humor.
Lost interest in reading the rest of your lies.

xModem wrote:

snip

The survey doesn't require
anyone's validation.
snip

What it SHOULD have, though, that I haven't yet seen in this thread,
is an indication of its statistical validity. Differences can occur
randomly, after all, and unless one actually does the statistics,
one can't discount the possibility that irrelevant random variation
accounts for the "differences" supposedly shown by the results. The
methodology used in the survey should also be scrutinized, or there's
a danger of such factors as self-selection biasing the results. For
instance, there's a famous case of a telephone survey that was done
back when not everyone had a telephone -- the results were biased in
favor of views held by wealthy respondents.

Without some assurance that the survey is valid, it's no better than
anecdotal evidence.

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 14:23:06 -0500, CJT wrote:

xModem wrote:

snip

The survey doesn't require
anyone's validation.
snip

What it SHOULD have, though, that I haven't yet seen in this thread,
is an indication of its statistical validity. Differences can occur
randomly, after all, and unless one actually does the statistics,
one can't discount the possibility that irrelevant random variation
accounts for the "differences" supposedly shown by the results. The
methodology used in the survey should also be scrutinized, or there's
a danger of such factors as self-selection biasing the results. For
instance, there's a famous case of a telephone survey that was done
back when not everyone had a telephone -- the results were biased in
favor of views held by wealthy respondents.

Without some assurance that the survey is valid,
it's no better than anecdotal evidence.

Here's the text in its entirety, minus the graphics showing the ratings, which
were already posted. Make of it what you may:

Furnace picks and pans

Buying a reliable furnace has largely been a roll of the dice, but help is at
hand. New data from a Consumer Reports survey of more than 36,000 homeowners
show that some brands of gas furnaces, the most common type by far, may be a
better bet than others. Gas furnaces from Goodman, for instance, were among
the more repair-prone of the 12 big brands in our 2004 Annual Questionnaire.

Overall, about one-sixth of all furnaces installed in the past eight years had
needed repair. We found only minor differences between new installations and
replacements. Among our other survey findings:

€¢ Nearly 60 percent of repairs were to furnaces that had failed completely and
stopped producing heat.

€¢ Almost 40 percent of repairs involved homes left unheated for at least 24
hours.

€¢ Almost 40 percent of repairs cost $150 or more.

According to our survey data, the vast majority of repairs involved a problem
with the furnace itself, not with its installation. Its important to choose
not only a good installer but also a reliable brand.

Data are based on 36,181 central furnaces installed between 1997 and 2004;
differences of less than 5 points are not meaningful. Data have been
standardized to account for higher use in colder climates and differences in
age; repairs to thermostats only were not counted as repairs. Note that models
within a brand may vary. Our data cannot always anticipate design or
manufacturing changes.