I am currently negotiating a contract with a contractor who is highly
recommended by a friend. While we work out the terms of the contract I had
a clause in it that states:

"Contractor warrants it is adequately insured for injury to it's employees,
subcontractors and others incurring loss or injury as a result of the acts
of Contractor or it's employees and subcontractors."

He strikes out the line above and replaced it with:

"Laborers brought on site by Contractor are not insured by Contractor.
Additionally other Subcontractors brought on site are not insured by
Contractor."

Is this a disaster waiting to happen? I want to make sure he only use subs
that are properly insured for injury, and he is saying he does not care.

Am I demanding too much? I don't think so. I don't want him to hire a
laborer off the street who then comes here and let a hammer fall on his toe
then turn around and sue me for $50,000.00 to cover his pain and suffering.

Any suggestions?

MC

On Apr 27, 9:01 pm, "MiamiCuse" wrote:
I am currently negotiating a contract with a contractor who is highly
recommended by a friend. While we work out the terms of the contract I had
a clause in it that states:

"Contractor warrants it is adequately insured for injury to it's employees,
subcontractors and others incurring loss or injury as a result of the acts
of Contractor or it's employees and subcontractors."

He strikes out the line above and replaced it with:

"Laborers brought on site by Contractor are not insured by Contractor.
Additionally other Subcontractors brought on site are not insured by
Contractor."

Is this a disaster waiting to happen? I want to make sure he only use subs
that are properly insured for injury, and he is saying he does not care.

Am I demanding too much? I don't think so. I don't want him to hire a
laborer off the street who then comes here and let a hammer fall on his toe
then turn around and sue me for $50,000.00 to cover his pain and suffering.

Any suggestions?

MC

Get the expert advice you need from a local lawyer in your area. He
can tell you exactly the extent of your liability, if any.
Additionally, he may even be able to supply a EULA for your contractor
to sign specifically absolving you of any and all consequences. Might
cost you a few bucks, but like the Mastercard ad says, it could be
priceless later. HTH

Joe

"MiamiCuse" wrote in message
...
I am currently negotiating a contract with a contractor who is highly
recommended by a friend. While we work out the terms of the contract I had
a clause in it that states:

"Contractor warrants it is adequately insured for injury to it's
employees, subcontractors and others incurring loss or injury as a result
of the acts of Contractor or it's employees and subcontractors."

He strikes out the line above and replaced it with:

"Laborers brought on site by Contractor are not insured by Contractor.
Additionally other Subcontractors brought on site are not insured by
Contractor."

Is this a disaster waiting to happen? I want to make sure he only use
subs that are properly insured for injury, and he is saying he does not
care.

Am I demanding too much? I don't think so. I don't want him to hire a
laborer off the street who then comes here and let a hammer fall on his
toe then turn around and sue me for $50,000.00 to cover his pain and
suffering.

Any suggestions?

MC

You don't think a guy who would first take the time to alter a contract and
enter a clause stating that he's not providing insurance for any of his
workers on your property would sue you later, do you?

And besides, it's not him you have to worry about. It's every
alien,alcoholic, derelict and fugitive that he brings to your property who
will sue your pants off, not him.

That's who you end up having work for you when you don't even provide
worker's comp as an employer, and pay in cash day to day.

And that's not even considering those workers visually and mentally taking
notes about your valuables and your workaday routine while working on your
property. Only to return some day when you're not home and do a little
"side work".

Let me give you a quick intelligence test: Here's fifty gallons of gas.
Here's a Bic lighter. What could possibly go wrong?

Steve

"MiamiCuse" wrote in message

"Laborers brought on site by Contractor are not insured by Contractor.
Additionally other Subcontractors brought on site are not insured by
Contractor."

Is this a disaster waiting to happen? I want to make sure he only use
subs that are properly insured for injury, and he is saying he does not
care.

Am I demanding too much? I don't think so.


If they are independent contractors themselves, he does not have to cover
them. He only has to cover his employees. I don't know about your state,
but some only if you have a certain number of employees, like 3 or 5 or
more.

This is how the contractor avoids the high cost of workman's comp insurance.
Now, it is possible that each individual worker makes enough money that they
provide their own insurance. Yes it is possible.

In article ,
says...

"MiamiCuse" wrote in message

"Laborers brought on site by Contractor are not insured by Contractor.
Additionally other Subcontractors brought on site are not insured by
Contractor."

Is this a disaster waiting to happen? I want to make sure he only use
subs that are properly insured for injury, and he is saying he does not
care.

Am I demanding too much? I don't think so.


If they are independent contractors themselves, he does not have to cover
them. He only has to cover his employees.

This is true, but the homeowner can be liable for injuries to the subs
if they are injured and do not have worker's comp insurance.

If the GC does not provide the worker's comp for the subs, he should at
the very least be required to obtain proof of their insurance before
allowing them on the jobsite.

--
is Joshua Putnam
http://www.phred.org/~josh/
Braze your own bicycle frames. See
http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html

MiamiCuse writes:

Am I demanding too much?

You are demanding the wrong thing.

Simply get a certificate of insurance (general liability and workers comp)
from the contractor.

If he can't deliver that, then he's not insured.

If he's insured, he will have absolutely no problem in giving you a
certificate.

End of story.

wrote:
In article ,
says...

"MiamiCuse" wrote in message

"Laborers brought on site by Contractor are not insured by Contractor.
Additionally other Subcontractors brought on site are not insured by
Contractor."

Is this a disaster waiting to happen? I want to make sure he only use
subs that are properly insured for injury, and he is saying he does not
care.

Am I demanding too much? I don't think so.


If they are independent contractors themselves, he does not have to cover
them. He only has to cover his employees.


This is true, but the homeowner can be liable for injuries to the subs
if they are injured and do not have worker's comp insurance.

If the GC does not provide the worker's comp for the subs, he should at
the very least be required to obtain proof of their insurance before
allowing them on the jobsite.

Hmmm,
Here in Canada there is Work Mens compensation board run insurance.
Every employer/employee are covered for minimal annual premium depending
on job classification. If home owner wants extra coverage for
unexpected accdent, he can buy a coverage for the duration of a job for
nominal premium. If a contractor does not have WCB coverage, very seldom
he can work on anything. I think most accident occurs on roofing jobs.

On Apr 27, 10:01 pm, "MiamiCuse" wrote:
I am currently negotiating a contract with a contractor who is highly
recommended by a friend. While we work out the terms of the contract I had
a clause in it that states:

"Contractor warrants it is adequately insured for injury to it's employees,
subcontractors and others incurring loss or injury as a result of the acts
of Contractor or it's employees and subcontractors."

He strikes out the line above and replaced it with:

"Laborers brought on site by Contractor are not insured by Contractor.
Additionally other Subcontractors brought on site are not insured by
Contractor."

Is this a disaster waiting to happen? I want to make sure he only use subs
that are properly insured for injury, and he is saying he does not care.

Am I demanding too much? I don't think so. I don't want him to hire a
laborer off the street who then comes here and let a hammer fall on his toe
then turn around and sue me for $50,000.00 to cover his pain and suffering.

Any suggestions?

MC

I don't know what I'd do with this guy but on advice of lawyer sons,
I've increased my homeowners and car insurance liabilities to high
levels. There are a lot of suit happy people out there that look for
opportunities to win the lottery from people like us. Sons also
recommend getting proof of insurance from contractors.

Frank

On Apr 27, 10:34 pm, Richard J Kinch wrote:
MiamiCuse writes:
Am I demanding too much?

You are demanding the wrong thing.

Simply get a certificate of insurance (general liability and workers comp)
from the contractor.

If he can't deliver that, then he's not insured.

If he's insured, he will have absolutely no problem in giving you a
certificate.

End of story.


Agreed. Even if the contractor accepted the original clause, it
ain't worth much. Suppose it turns out
he doesn't actually have insurance after someone has a $50K
accident? Then what? When
you're sued are you gonna the sue him and chase him down? Many of
these guys are judgement proof. But
the injured worker knows where your house is.

You want proof in the form of an insurance certificate.

"MiamiCuse" wrote in message

snip

Why is it you have all the luck finding these guys?

Steve

"Steve B" wrote in message
...


"MiamiCuse" wrote in message

snip

Why is it you have all the luck finding these guys?

Steve


I don't think it's my luck. I think it is reflective of the percentage of
tradesman that are unlicensed, uninsured, unskilled, and uninspired in this
part of the country (south Florida). When Wilma hit us, literally thousands
and thousands of roofers went around and knock on doors of the older retired
population with roof damages and asked for 50% down on doing their roof
repairs, proceeded to cash the check and never showed up at all.

It just THAT hard to find an honest, skillful and licensed contractor. Yes,
you ask friends, coworkers, neighbors, everyone and 10 out of 10 told me
they will not hire who they previously hired. Why did they hire them to
begin with and why didn't they check references? Because they couldn't find
anyone else.

Last eight projects I had hired someone to do, only one was professionally
done, and that was a hurricane shuuter installation. Between the time I
paid the retainer, to the time they show up for the install, nine months
elapsed. That's how busy they were.

MC

In article .com,
says...

Agreed. Even if the contractor accepted the original clause, it
ain't worth much. Suppose it turns out
he doesn't actually have insurance after someone has a $50K
accident? Then what? When
you're sued are you gonna the sue him and chase him down? Many of
these guys are judgement proof. But
the injured worker knows where your house is.

You want proof in the form of an insurance certificate.


Just to be careful, you should also take the two minutes it takes to
call the agency listed on the certificate and verify that coverage us
current. Some crooked contractors play the game of doctoring past
insurance certificates for new jobs, not hard to do with today's
scanners and software.

Speak to their insurance agent and confirm that the coverage is in place
for your specific job.

--
is Joshua Putnam
http://www.phred.org/~josh/
Updated Infrared Photography Gallery:
http://www.phred.org/~josh/photo/ir.html

wrote in message
.net...
In article .com,
says...

Agreed. Even if the contractor accepted the original clause, it
ain't worth much. Suppose it turns out
he doesn't actually have insurance after someone has a $50K
accident? Then what? When
you're sued are you gonna the sue him and chase him down? Many of
these guys are judgement proof. But
the injured worker knows where your house is.

You want proof in the form of an insurance certificate.


Just to be careful, you should also take the two minutes it takes to
call the agency listed on the certificate and verify that coverage us
current. Some crooked contractors play the game of doctoring past
insurance certificates for new jobs, not hard to do with today's
scanners and software.

Speak to their insurance agent and confirm that the coverage is in place
for your specific job.

--
is Joshua Putnam
http://www.phred.org/~josh/
Updated Infrared Photography Gallery:
http://www.phred.org/~josh/photo/ir.html

Thanks. I will do that.

MC

On Sat, 28 Apr 2007 17:23:32 -0400, "MiamiCuse"
wrote:


wrote in message
t.net...
In article .com,
says...

Agreed. Even if the contractor accepted the original clause, it
ain't worth much. Suppose it turns out
he doesn't actually have insurance after someone has a $50K
accident? Then what? When
you're sued are you gonna the sue him and chase him down? Many of
these guys are judgement proof. But
the injured worker knows where your house is.

You want proof in the form of an insurance certificate.


Just to be careful, you should also take the two minutes it takes to
call the agency listed on the certificate and verify that coverage us
current. Some crooked contractors play the game of doctoring past
insurance certificates for new jobs, not hard to do with today's
scanners and software.

Speak to their insurance agent and confirm that the coverage is in place
for your specific job.

Thanks. I will do that.

MC


Reminds me (DIY) check your home owner's insurance.

Our state has a web site to check contractors.

Crooks have been chasing disasters in Florida for many years and they
travel light, taking money and running. Even building inspectors were
on the take and indicted after Andrew.

--
Oren

"If things get any worse, I'll have to ask you to stop helping me."

Just to be careful, you should also take the two minutes it takes to
call the agency listed on the certificate and verify that coverage us
current.

No. You don't know what a "certificate of insurance" is and how it works.
It obviously would not certify *anything* if it could be cancelled without
your knowledge.

MiamiCuse writes:

It just THAT hard to find an honest, skillful and licensed contractor.

Do not mistake the predominance of dishonest, unskillful, and/or unlicensed
contractors as an absence of good ones. The cheap stuff is piled high out
on the floor, the good stuff is behind the counter on a high shelf.

Actually, in Florida, there are *no* unlicensed contractors, because by
law, contracts for unlicensed work are unenforceable. So go ahead and hire
them, just don't pay in advance, and then you won't have to pay at all.

On Sat, 28 Apr 2007 17:11:01 -0500, Richard J Kinch
wrote:

Just to be careful, you should also take the two minutes it takes to
call the agency listed on the certificate and verify that coverage us
current.

No. You don't know what a "certificate of insurance" is and how it works.
It obviously would not certify *anything* if it could be cancelled without
your knowledge.

Huh? My auto insurance can be cancelled without anyone knowing,
except me, if I get the letter. Now in this state they notify the
DMV, but how would anyone borrowing my car know if my insurance had
been cancelled?

And how could a client know if contractor's insurance was cancelled?

Do you mean that no one would lie?

mm writes:

Huh? My auto insurance can be cancelled without anyone knowing,
except me, if I get the letter.

No, not if a certificate has been issued. Learn what a "certificate of
insurance" means. It is not just a policy declaration.

On Sat, 28 Apr 2007 18:39:12 -0400, mm
wrote:

On Sat, 28 Apr 2007 17:11:01 -0500, Richard J Kinch
wrote:

Just to be careful, you should also take the two minutes it takes to
call the agency listed on the certificate and verify that coverage us
current.

No. You don't know what a "certificate of insurance" is and how it works.
It obviously would not certify *anything* if it could be cancelled without
your knowledge.

Huh? My auto insurance can be cancelled without anyone knowing,
except me, if I get the letter. Now in this state they notify the
DMV, but how would anyone borrowing my car know if my insurance had
been cancelled?

And how could a client know if contractor's insurance was cancelled?

I might at least, ask my insurance agent for my home policy. He may be
able to assist with an insurance validation.


Do you mean that no one would lie?
--
Oren

"If things get any worse, I'll have to ask you to stop helping me."

In article ,
says...
Just to be careful, you should also take the two minutes it takes to
call the agency listed on the certificate and verify that coverage us
current.

No. You don't know what a "certificate of insurance" is and how it works.

I know a bit about them, since I issue them.

It obviously would not certify *anything* if it could be cancelled without
your knowledge.

If it has in fact been issued by the carrier, then the carrier will
attempt to provide notice if it is cancelled.

If the carrier knows nothing about the certificate because it was
doctored up by the contractor's teenage son, then you will never receive
a cancellation notice because the coverage never existed to begin with.

--
is Joshua Putnam
http://www.phred.org/~josh/
Updated Infrared Photography Gallery:
http://www.phred.org/~josh/photo/ir.html

If the carrier knows nothing about the certificate because it was
doctored up by the contractor's teenage son, then you will never receive
a cancellation notice because the coverage never existed to begin with.

*Sigh*. I guess I should have said, a "genuine certificate".

If you're going to postulate things like forgeries, then, yes, all bets are
off.

Just like if you call the "agency listed on the certificate", and it's been
doctored to the crooked contractor's wife's cellphone.

wrote

Just to be careful, you should also take the two minutes it takes to
call the agency listed on the certificate and verify that coverage us
current. Some crooked contractors play the game of doctoring past
insurance certificates for new jobs, not hard to do with today's
scanners and software.


BACK WHEN I WAS A CONTRACTOR .........

and bread was a quarter ..........

and it was two miles uphill to school both ways .............

But, I digress ............

I was a steel erection contractor for nine years in the State of Nevada.

At that time, it was standard practice for the homeowner/property owner to
request for free, a copy of a current certificate of insurance from the
State Industrial Insurance System. Or the contractor would request it to be
sent to the HO/POs address. It was mailed directly from the SIIS to the
HO/PO.

Now, the system has changed, and it allows for HOs/POs to be self-insured,
and to use insurances other than the State System for worker's compensation.
So, I don't know what the procedure is now.

But it is a VERY good idea to get a cert directly from the agent, or the
agency, as they are VERY easily forged, altered, or created on a computer
these days.

Steve

"Oren" wrote

Our state has a web site to check contractors.

Oren and I live in the same state. In the past few years, the contractor's
board has come down with both boots on unlicensed contractors.

It was changed from a misdemeanor to a felony.

AND, now, merely offering to do work, even if NO work was performed OR money
changed hands, it is considered to be contracting.

Sure jerked a knot in a lot of monkey's tails around here.

Steve

On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 22:01:28 -0400, "MiamiCuse"
wrote:

I am currently negotiating a contract with a contractor who is highly
recommended by a friend. While we work out the terms of the contract I had
a clause in it that states:

"Contractor warrants it is adequately insured for injury to it's employees,
subcontractors and others incurring loss or injury as a result of the acts
of Contractor or it's employees and subcontractors."

He strikes out the line above and replaced it with:

"Laborers brought on site by Contractor are not insured by Contractor.
Additionally other Subcontractors brought on site are not insured by
Contractor."

Is this a disaster waiting to happen? I want to make sure he only use subs
that are properly insured for injury, and he is saying he does not care.

Am I demanding too much? I don't think so. I don't want him to hire a
laborer off the street who then comes here and let a hammer fall on his toe
then turn around and sue me for $50,000.00 to cover his pain and suffering.

Any suggestions?

MC


It is easy solution. Don't do business with this guy. Let others
benefit from his obviously excellent skills while you hire some
incompetent deadbeat that couldn't build a dog house, but is willing
to sign your riduclous contract.

Deke wrote:

On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 22:01:28 -0400, "MiamiCuse"
wrote:


I am currently negotiating a contract with a contractor who is highly
recommended by a friend. While we work out the terms of the contract I had
a clause in it that states:

"Contractor warrants it is adequately insured for injury to it's employees,
subcontractors and others incurring loss or injury as a result of the acts
of Contractor or it's employees and subcontractors."

He strikes out the line above and replaced it with:

"Laborers brought on site by Contractor are not insured by Contractor.
Additionally other Subcontractors brought on site are not insured by
Contractor."

Is this a disaster waiting to happen? I want to make sure he only use subs
that are properly insured for injury, and he is saying he does not care.

Am I demanding too much? I don't think so. I don't want him to hire a
laborer off the street who then comes here and let a hammer fall on his toe
then turn around and sue me for $50,000.00 to cover his pain and suffering.

Any suggestions?

MC



It is easy solution. Don't do business with this guy. Let others
benefit from his obviously excellent skills while you hire some
incompetent deadbeat that couldn't build a dog house, but is willing
to sign your riduclous contract.



I don't see anything ridiculous about requiring that a contractor carry
adequate insurance.

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 22:01:28 -0400, "MiamiCuse"
wrote:


I am currently negotiating a contract with a contractor who is highly
recommended by a friend. While we work out the terms of the contract I
had a clause in it that states:

"Contractor warrants it is adequately insured for injury to it's
employees, subcontractors and others incurring loss or injury as a result
of the acts of Contractor or it's employees and subcontractors."

He strikes out the line above and replaced it with:

"Laborers brought on site by Contractor are not insured by Contractor.
Additionally other Subcontractors brought on site are not insured by
Contractor."

Is this a disaster waiting to happen? I want to make sure he only use
subs that are properly insured for injury, and he is saying he does not
care.

Am I demanding too much? I don't think so. I don't want him to hire a
laborer off the street who then comes here and let a hammer fall on his
toe then turn around and sue me for $50,000.00 to cover his pain and
suffering.

Any suggestions?

MC

There is nothing wrong with your statement. Well maybe it could be better
worded. -

Move on and find someone who has insured subs and laborers.

This is a lawsuit looking for a place to happen.

Colbyt