This is OT, but you guys seem to know a lot.

I went to a Home Owners meeting tonight. The HOA plans to disconnect
the water of people who are delinquent on their fees, and the
management company rep says that it is *illegal* to tell the tenant
what is about to happen to him. That they can't tell him this without
the consent of the landlord. She says she has verified this with a the
HOA's lawyer, recently, but she knew it before that.

Could this be true?

Our HOA doesn't have many responsibilities, and the fees are only
about 110 dollars a quarter.

Despite that, owners of 7 of the 110 townhouses are 500 dollars or
more behind, and at 550 a year, they are from 1 to 4 years delinquent.

Several of the houses are owned by someone, usually someone who used
to live here, and rented to someone else. Most landlords pay their
fees on time, but one of the 7 who owes 500 dollars is a landlord.

The HOA has checked with a lawyer and since the HOA pays the water
bill for everyone, it is apparently legal for the HOA to turn off the
water to someone who owes money.

And they voted to do that tonight (They voted to do that last October
also, but didn't.)

BUT HERE IS THE KICKER. The management company rep says that it is
*illegal* to tell the tenant what is about to happen to him. That
they can't tell him this without the consent of the landlord. She says
she has verified this with a rental type lawyer, the HOA's lawyer,
recently, but she knew it before that.

Have you ever heard of this? I don't believe it.

This is Baltimore County, Md., but I'd be interested in any state's
laws.

I'm also annoyed because of the 12 or so people at the meeting, only 4
of us had any objection to this. Of the 4, one didn't say anything
until privately after the meeting, one said something a year ago but
doesn't seem to care anymore, and the other guy and I voted against
the water turnoff although there are other reasons he might have voted
against it. There may be some other quiet ones, but some were vocal
and imo they and anyone who agreed with them are very cold-blooded wrt
the tenant.

Background, not necessary for my question:
In sort-of defense of the Board, they have written to the owners over
and over, offerred a payment plan and arranged a payment plan with a
couple others who owed a lot of money, made appointments with some of
the owners on the current list only to have the owners not even show
up for the appointments, even though they agreed to them. The owners
are terrible, I agree.

But this one tenant, and other perhaps in the future, has paid
everything he owes afawk and he's the one who's going to lose his
water. If the landlord doesn't pay before the cutoff date, I'd bet it
will take at least 4 days before the tenant figures out** what the
problem is and gets his landlord to budge, or the tenant gives up and
pays the bill himself. If they disconnect him on a Thursday or
Friday, he'll be without water on the weekend too. One could of
course pay our treasurer, who lives in the n'hood, but they're so
cold-blooded, I'll bet they won't allow that or will take the money
but not turn the water on until Monday when a plumber can come.

OTOH, if they told the tenant a month in advance, he would have a
better chance of convincing the ll to pay, or maybe even withhold some
of his rent and make his own payment plan with the HOA. (Risky in Md.
for anyonne. Not risky in NYC for someone who knows a bit.)

**For one thing, he'll get home at 5:30, say Monday, to find he has no
water and he won't be able to reach the ll until the next day. When
they finally get a check, it will take them another day to send
someone out (even though we could probably buy a wrench and do it
ourselves. (The valve cases are locked with bolts with 5-sided heads,
but they must sell those somewhere.)

This is weird. Seems to me that the HOA is opting to punish the tenant
rather than the owner. If this is going to be done, I would think it ought
to be done just before the end of the month, and then the tenant could pay
the water bill and deduct it from the rent due the landlord.

In the alternative, the HOA could just file a lien and threaten to foreclose
on the property and not worry about the silly water issue.

--

__
Roger Shoaf

Important factors in selecting a mate:
1] Depth of gene pool
2] Position on the food chain.



"mm" wrote in message
...
This is OT, but you guys seem to know a lot.

I went to a Home Owners meeting tonight. The HOA plans to disconnect
the water of people who are delinquent on their fees, and the
management company rep says that it is *illegal* to tell the tenant
what is about to happen to him. That they can't tell him this without
the consent of the landlord. She says she has verified this with a the
HOA's lawyer, recently, but she knew it before that.

Could this be true?

Our HOA doesn't have many responsibilities, and the fees are only
about 110 dollars a quarter.

Despite that, owners of 7 of the 110 townhouses are 500 dollars or
more behind, and at 550 a year, they are from 1 to 4 years delinquent.

Several of the houses are owned by someone, usually someone who used
to live here, and rented to someone else. Most landlords pay their
fees on time, but one of the 7 who owes 500 dollars is a landlord.

The HOA has checked with a lawyer and since the HOA pays the water
bill for everyone, it is apparently legal for the HOA to turn off the
water to someone who owes money.

And they voted to do that tonight (They voted to do that last October
also, but didn't.)

BUT HERE IS THE KICKER. The management company rep says that it is
*illegal* to tell the tenant what is about to happen to him. That
they can't tell him this without the consent of the landlord. She says
she has verified this with a rental type lawyer, the HOA's lawyer,
recently, but she knew it before that.

Have you ever heard of this? I don't believe it.

This is Baltimore County, Md., but I'd be interested in any state's
laws.

I'm also annoyed because of the 12 or so people at the meeting, only 4
of us had any objection to this. Of the 4, one didn't say anything
until privately after the meeting, one said something a year ago but
doesn't seem to care anymore, and the other guy and I voted against
the water turnoff although there are other reasons he might have voted
against it. There may be some other quiet ones, but some were vocal
and imo they and anyone who agreed with them are very cold-blooded wrt
the tenant.

Background, not necessary for my question:
In sort-of defense of the Board, they have written to the owners over
and over, offerred a payment plan and arranged a payment plan with a
couple others who owed a lot of money, made appointments with some of
the owners on the current list only to have the owners not even show
up for the appointments, even though they agreed to them. The owners
are terrible, I agree.

But this one tenant, and other perhaps in the future, has paid
everything he owes afawk and he's the one who's going to lose his
water. If the landlord doesn't pay before the cutoff date, I'd bet it
will take at least 4 days before the tenant figures out** what the
problem is and gets his landlord to budge, or the tenant gives up and
pays the bill himself. If they disconnect him on a Thursday or
Friday, he'll be without water on the weekend too. One could of
course pay our treasurer, who lives in the n'hood, but they're so
cold-blooded, I'll bet they won't allow that or will take the money
but not turn the water on until Monday when a plumber can come.

OTOH, if they told the tenant a month in advance, he would have a
better chance of convincing the ll to pay, or maybe even withhold some
of his rent and make his own payment plan with the HOA. (Risky in Md.
for anyonne. Not risky in NYC for someone who knows a bit.)

**For one thing, he'll get home at 5:30, say Monday, to find he has no
water and he won't be able to reach the ll until the next day. When
they finally get a check, it will take them another day to send
someone out (even though we could probably buy a wrench and do it
ourselves. (The valve cases are locked with bolts with 5-sided heads,
but they must sell those somewhere.)

On Thu, 26 Apr 2007 23:16:33 -0700, "Roger Shoaf"
wrote:

This is weird. Seems to me that the HOA is opting to punish the tenant
rather than the owner.

Most of them don't seem to care who they hurt. If the vocal ones, 2
or 3 of them, had even said, "It's a shame that the tenant will
suffer, but we have to go this way" that would have upgraded my
opinion of their souls, if not their common sense.

If this is going to be done, I would think it ought
to be done just before the end of the month, and then the tenant could pay
the water bill and deduct it from the rent due the landlord.

I used to know 60 of the 110 neighbors, but a lot of people stay for a
few years and move to bigger homes. I guess others can't pay the
bills and move to smaller homes. Unrelated to my current problem,
there is one family whose son was on the honor roll and the varsity
football team, went to a good college, got a job at a Fortune 500
company, and he is making a good living, and both his parents have
real jobs that pay decent salaries also. And the parents are often on
the delinquent list. I think he told me once he didn't pay on
principle -- he was mad at them -- but it's hard to believe that's
still the reason 14 years later. Oops. For 90+ days, now he only
owes 24 cents.


In the alternative, the HOA could just file a lien and threaten to foreclose
on the property and not worry about the silly water issue.

Good point. I'll check on this.

I think they have to get a judgement before they can file a lien, but
all these costs are passed on to the homeowner, and they *were* doing
this. I think we had a lawyer who we paid for other legal services,
but who would do all this "liening" with no money from us. Oh, yeah,
iirc the real hard cases he would stop trying on. Maybe he
threatened to foreclose and they called his bluff, but I don't know
why he didn't foreclose.

OTOH, nobody owes more than 2500 dollars, which is 4 1/2 years worth,
but we've had this problem, at least with one or two people, for the
whole 24 years I've been here. I think 2 people somehow got away
without paying, but afaik that means that everyone else paid up as of
4 years ago, and only three other people owe from between 2 and 4
years ago. So as long as we're getting the money eventually, and I
suppose we get some interest too, I don't know why they're so upset.
They seem to take it as a personal insult.

I suppose a portion of these delinquents are intentional deadbeats,
meaning they have the money but still don't want to pay, but I'm glad
to say that I don't care. I have enough things that annoy me and I'm
glad this one doesn't. I certainly don't take it personally.

I was on the board for several years, then off for several years.
FWIW, we used to have monthly meetings, and now we have quarterly
meetings and I've been going again since last July and have been on
the board again since January.

When I used to go, they regularly did the lien thing, and were
supposed to threaten to foreclose, and I either can't remember what
happened, or it happened after I stopped going to the meetings.

I also stopped meeting or at least remembering neighbors and I know a
lot of my favorite people moved away. But I found tonight that one of
the nicest people, who I get along with enough to call her a friend,
was on the board most of the time I wasn't. I'm going to ask her
about this.

mm wrote:
This is OT, but you guys seem to know a lot.

I went to a Home Owners meeting tonight. The HOA plans to disconnect
the water of people who are delinquent on their fees, and the
management company rep says that it is *illegal* to tell the tenant
what is about to happen to him. That they can't tell him this without
the consent of the landlord. She says she has verified this with a the
HOA's lawyer, recently, but she knew it before that.

Could this be true?


Why don't you call the city and ask them?



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com wrote in message
...
| mm wrote:
| This is OT, but you guys seem to know a lot.
|
| I went to a Home Owners meeting tonight. The HOA plans to
disconnect
| the water of people who are delinquent on their fees, and the
| management company rep says that it is *illegal* to tell the tenant
| what is about to happen to him. That they can't tell him this
without
| the consent of the landlord. She says she has verified this with a
the
| HOA's lawyer, recently, but she knew it before that.
|
| Could this be true?
|
|
| Why don't you call the city and ask them?
|
|
|
| --
| Mortimer Schnerd, RN
| mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com
|
|


most towns give the tenant the right to pay utility bills directly and
deduct it from the next months rent, especially if they have children.
most towns even send a notice to the tenant before shutting off
utilities.
giving them the option to pay the balance due.

it's just another slum lord story.
funny how the people with money..............never pay!

I guess that's why they have money?

IANAL. I think it is somewhat questionable to shut off water as a means
of collecting a HOA fee but won't make any other comment on that.
However, I don't see how it can be "illegal" to tell the tenant or anyone
else anything.
--
Make it as simple as possible, but no simpler.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org

Turning off the water is a goofy solution. It is taking action against
a renter for actions of the owner. I believe it would be illegal where
I live, as rental units are required to have water, sewage and
electricity. IMO, it would be better to take owner to small claims,
and/or file a lien on his unit(s). If it is a chronic issue, the board
could vote for a special assessment to cover legal costs - recoverable,
at worst, when he sells the unit.

I've put up with pretty awful behavior by board members and owners in
our condo, and it is owner's complacency that causes a lot of
trouble..they don't want to be bothered to make sure the association is
run properly. It is a business! $3,500/year in a HOA of 110 units is
small change; if the board votes for penalties (if allowed by law), it
would have a better effect that taking action that harms someone other
than the owner and likely gets the HOA sued!

Have to be careful about handling financial deficiencies or rules
violations - in Fl., I believe it is illegal in condos to refer to the
owner or violator by name in meetings - supposed to address them only by
unit number.

You referred to owners who only voiced their opposition after a
meeting..typical! It is politics, and a right course of action should
be pressed before meetings so meetings don't turn into open warfare, and
owners understand that the vote will have a positive effect for them.

We have a small association, and at one point three owners could block
any action, including votes for needed maintenance. One of them was
owner of three units, chronically delinquent in monthly assessment, but
owner of $1,000,000 sailboat and second home in Bahamas! A real
parasite whose behavior forced other owners to do work themselves if
they wanted the place taken care of.

On Apr 27, 5:54�am, (Larry W) wrote:
IANAL. I think it is somewhat questionable to shut off water as a means
of collecting a HOA fee but won't make any other comment on that.
However, I don't see how it can be "illegal" to tell the tenant or anyone
else anything.
--
* * *Make it as simple as possible, but no simpler.

* * *Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org

PERHAPS some members of the board dont like the tenants who are about
to lose their water? might be a effort to punish them somehow.

I am a loudmouth when someone is doing something to hurt others. I
would warn the effected individuals.

Look fr practical purposes their water will get turned back on at some
point.

but for SAFETY SAKE it should never be shut off.

A minor fire, a mere nothing could spread and damage not just the unit
with no water, but the adjacent ones too.

clipped

I also stopped meeting or at least remembering neighbors and I know a
lot of my favorite people moved away. But I found tonight that one of
the nicest people, who I get along with enough to call her a friend,
was on the board most of the time I wasn't. I'm going to ask her
about this.

Monthly meetings in a HOA of that size are likely a waste of time,
unless the board members like ****ing contests over rules violations or
adding amenities. If you don't go to meetings and/or take your turn at
being a board member, you are part of the problem )

The best solution is to acquaint yourself with owners who might be
willing to be on the board and recognize the function as a business
operation, not an opportunity to control everyone and everything. In
Fl., board members can be PERSONALLY liable for ignoring their fiduciary
DUTY as board member! If you have years and years of delinquent water
bills, the board has been negligent...it is their duty to collect funds
owed to the association.

On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 09:54:51 +0000 (UTC),
(Larry W) wrote:

IANAL. I think it is somewhat questionable to shut off water as a means
of collecting a HOA fee but won't make any other comment on that.

I agree with you that it at least questionable. But that decision has
been made already, when I wasn't on the board, and I can't turn back
the tide. In fact, even if the decision hadn't been made, I would
only be one vote out of nine, and I've learned that I'm not very
convincing, at least with every set of board members I've served
with**. And they have a point, especially for the 5 or 6 who live in
the house they own, that we have been trying to collect the money for
years, and that they either refused to come in and talk about it, or
they made appointments to come in and then didn't show up. After the
October meeting, on that one night I think 3 people were scheduled to
come in and either one or none did.

**I would probably not have been good in elective office, which I
thought about for a few years. That was the major reason I went to
law school (and then dropped out) and I don't feel so bad about not
finishing since I later learned that I don't remember names or faces,
don't like asking friends for favors or strangers for money, and could
not have gotten elected to anything, or done well had I been.

However, I don't see how it can be "illegal" to tell the tenant or anyone
else anything.

Related story at the bottom***.

As I thought about it more, I realized where they are coming from, but
that doesn't mean I think they are right.

Ironically, I was involved in the first chapter of this. Because of a
dispute 20 years ago, I decided to enlist and get elected to the board
a slate of 6 candidates, and I got the other five, and gave each of
them an area near their house to solicit proxies from. But I didn't
want them to waste their time on people who were more than 3 months
late on their dues because the bylaws didn't permit them to vote
anyhow.

I was already on the board and was allowed to know who was delinquent,
and what I should have done is take all those people for myself and
then ignored them. Instead I put an asterisk or something on the list
next to their names and explained verbally to the 5 other candidates
that they were 3 months delinquent and couldn't vote.

I never did find out what exact rule I violated, but boy the stink
when more people found out about this. I may have truly embarrassed
one of the delinquent homeowners, or maybe it was my political
opponent in the HOA making as much hay as possible out of it.

Anyhow, for years after this, they didn't even show the board members
the names of people who owed money. We would discuss their cases
based on how much money they owed but not their names and I guess not
their addresses.

So the problem now would be that to tell the tenant would be telling
someone not on the board about a homeowner who owes money.

I don't know what rule I violated in the first place, but if there is
a rule, I'm pretty sure there is an exception for telling his tenant,
especially when the person is about to lose his water.
--
Make it as simple as possible, but no simpler.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org


***One of my stupid neighbors, although he had a good job, once told
me I "illegally went to the HOA's lawyer." He said this in a meeting
and I asked him if he was accusing me of a crime. He didn't answer,
but I think even in the words he used he had libelled me, and iirc, at
least in NYS, don't know about Md., you don't have to show actual
damages to recover something if you are falsely accused of committing
a crime. But I wasn't going to sue him, only taunt him at most.

I didn't even do that. I tried instead to make up with him, and left
him a conciliatory note which I dropped off just before I went away
for 5 days. When I got home, there were three messages from him on my
machine. The first was nice, in response to my note. The second was
a complaint that I hadn't called him back, and the third was really
angry and offended that I hadn't called him back. I told him I had
been away, but he was back to not liking me and my words meant
nothing.

On another occasion, it came out that a private manager of group homes
for mentally retarded or mentally ill people, I forget which,
including 4 or 5 patients with one staff person looking over them, had
quietly rented one of the townhouses, and then a second one, and a
neighbor called a meeting to "solve the problem". One of them had
been only 10 townhouses from me for 4 months or more and I'd not
noticed anything special about it, and the other was across the big
parking lot from the first one for about 2 months, and I had also not
noticed it. So I didn't have any complaints. The guy in the previous
paragraph was at the meeting and so was his wife.

The wife began to speak. She said with an almost emotional voice.
"My brother was retarded, and I had to watch him every day" and I was
sure that her love for her brother would influence her feelings about
these people, and she continued, "and I had to watch him stuggle every
day, and I don't want to see that anymore." And she wanted the group
homes gone. And this couple lived on the next block and would never
have seen any of them anyhow. They were married more than 20 years,
and made for each other, both of them jerks.

The group homes stayed for a few more months and then left, but not
because of anything we did, since afaik we didn't do anything. In all
that time, I only noticed them once for 3 to 5 minutes. There was a
medium sized school bus that would pick them up to take them for
training somewhere, and once when the bus returned in the afternoon,
one of the girls, maybe between 15 and 20 didn't want to get off the
bus. And she yelled a little, and the staff person in the house came
outside and got her, and that was the end of it. I don't think the 4
families who lived next door had any complaints either. This was
during the first period when I was on the board.

On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 05:09:47 -0400, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com wrote:

mm wrote:
This is OT, but you guys seem to know a lot.

I went to a Home Owners meeting tonight. The HOA plans to disconnect
the water of people who are delinquent on their fees, and the
management company rep says that it is *illegal* to tell the tenant
what is about to happen to him. That they can't tell him this without
the consent of the landlord. She says she has verified this with a the
HOA's lawyer, recently, but she knew it before that.

Could this be true?


Why don't you call the city and ask them?

I don't think I could find someone who could answer the question.

If they meant it was a violation of a criminal law, I could call the
prosecutor I guess, but they probably mean it's a civil wrong, and no
one at the city is going to want to answer such a question.

A judge might know the answer, but he'll want to hear both sides of
the case in a hearing with witnesses. But I don't think he would
talk to me at all. His secretary will tell me to consult a lawyer.

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
mm wrote:
This is OT, but you guys seem to know a lot.

I went to a Home Owners meeting tonight. The HOA plans to
disconnect the water of people who are delinquent on their fees, and
the management company rep says that it is *illegal* to tell the
tenant what is about to happen to him. That they can't tell him
this without the consent of the landlord. She says she has verified
this with a the HOA's lawyer, recently, but she knew it before that.

Could this be true?


Why don't you call the city and ask them?

So leave an anonymous note on the affected tenants' doors.

On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 10:02:11 GMT, Norminn
wrote:

Turning off the water is a goofy solution. It is taking action against
a renter for actions of the owner.

Only one of the seven involves a tenant at this time, but they have
this crackpot notion that what they do in one situation they have to
do in all others. So even if they were otherwise willing, which
they're not, they wouldn't believe that they can have a different rule
for the rented one from the others. This attitude of theirs shows in
a lot of situations. I would guess it is an effort to simplify a
complicated world.

I believe it would be illegal where
I live, as rental units are required to have water, sewage and
electricity.

I hadn't thought of that. That duty might only pertain to the
landlord, but the reasons would be just as valid wrt anyone.

I hadn't though of that, but I did urge them to start small, with only
a smaller number, so that if they were making a mistake, they wouldn't
make it too many times. So that they could refine their methods and
do a better job the next time. Mostly it's the president and the
comparitively new management company rep. They both have the desire
to be in control, and I think to push people around. In most cases,
much of the board is like sheep, and in this case they are even more
supportive because they want the money.

IMO, it would be better to take owner to small claims,
and/or file a lien on his unit(s). If it is a chronic issue, the board
could vote for a special assessment to cover legal costs - recoverable,
at worst, when he sells the unit.

We've taken a substantial number to court in the past, and gotten
liens. The lawyer will do it for free iirc getting all hs money and
ours when the bill is paid. I wasn't at the meetings for a few years,
and didn't read the newsletters for that matter (if they said
anything) but I'm going to try to find out why this method isn't
sufficient. Specifically I'm going to try to find out if there were
any houses for which we didn't get our money, and what went wrong in
those cases.

I've put up with pretty awful behavior by board members and owners in
our condo, and it is owner's complacency that causes a lot of
trouble..they don't want to be bothered to make sure the association is
run properly. It is a business! $3,500/year in a HOA of 110 units is
small change; if the board votes for penalties (if allowed by law), it

I don't think much in the way of penalties are allowed by laws.

The quarterly bill per house is about 115 dollars, of which 80 dollars
goes to the HOA and 35 goes to the water company. A few months ago I
mentioned the strange circumstances that makes our water bill so low.

The 80 dollars should be raised, but it's hard to get enough votes to
do that. STill, it's almost enough because these are not condos and
the homeowner is responsible for his entire house and his yard. The
HOA is only repsonisible for repairing the sidewalkes that don't go
to the doors of the house and repairing the road and parking lot
occasionally, and lawnmowing and bushes and flowers of the commmon
areas which are pretty small.

would have a better effect that taking action that harms someone other
than the owner and likely gets the HOA sued!

The lawyer says we're safe, but I forgot to mention that I don't trust
the lawyer's competence.

It's the same lawyer who says we can't tell the tenant who also says
we can turn off the water.

Have to be careful about handling financial deficiencies or rules
violations - in Fl., I believe it is illegal in condos to refer to the
owner or violator by name in meetings - supposed to address them only by
unit number.

That's the kind of rule they're referring to. I gues that sort of
answers, or at least relates to, Larry's and my question.

Are you allowed to refer to them by name outside of meetings? Like in
the chit chat afterwards.

I have a friend who visits his mother who lives in a condo in Fl. He
visits for 3 or 4 months every winter. I'll ask him how florida
works.

You referred to owners who only voiced their opposition after a
meeting..typical! It is politics, and a right course of action should
be pressed before meetings so meetings don't turn into open warfare, and
owners understand that the vote will have a positive effect for them.

It was only tonight that I found out that the tenant wasn't going to
be notified. That one guy who raised the issue last fall did so
before I had even thought of it. I heard about it for the first time
at that same meeting last fall. I told him what a good idea he had.
Yet tonight, he was the one who made the motion to cut off the water,
saying nothing about sending a notice to the tenant.

The woman who didn't say anthying until after the meeting was under
the impression that no landlords were delinquent, and it's true that
most ll's pay on time and there is only one in this group.

I've gone days without water and it barely bothers me at all, so it's
surprising in a way that I'm so concerned about this family. I think
what really bothers me is to again see how callous, self-centered, and
compassionless are so many of my neighbors. And this makes me think
that maybe I have overestimated the whole country and the whole world.
And that is really depressing. Screwing over your neighbor is only
one step from screwing over your neighbor when you are looking at him,
and that's only one step from screwing over a friend, which is only
one step from screwing over a family member. (Sometimes it's even
worse.)

And I think a bunch of them, maybe even the two worst, the pres and
the property management rep make a moderate display at times of being
religious and, one would think that meant, attempting to be
compassionate. They don't answer the phone "God bless you" or
anything quite so overt, and I've never been to the rep's home, but I
think I've seen religious things of some sort on the walls or
refrigerator of the others.

We have a small association, and at one point three owners could block
any action, including votes for needed maintenance. One of them was
owner of three units, chronically delinquent in monthly assessment, but
owner of $1,000,000 sailboat and second home in Bahamas! A real
parasite whose behavior forced other owners to do work themselves if
they wanted the place taken care of.

Wow. I haven't met any of these deadbeats or any of the ones from
previous years, afaik.


This just in: Dean of Admissions of MIT had often cautioned people
not to pad their resume. After 30 years, she has resigned for having
padded hers. Claimed degrees she didn't have. May not have even
graduated college anywhere.

In article et,
Norminn wrote:

Turning off the water is a goofy solution. It is taking action against
a renter for actions of the owner. I believe it would be illegal where
I live, as rental units are required to have water, sewage and
electricity. IMO, it would be better to take owner to small claims,
and/or file a lien on his unit(s). If it is a chronic issue, the board
could vote for a special assessment to cover legal costs - recoverable,
at worst, when he sells the unit.

While I agree with your final para, I don't think the HOA has a dog in
the illegal not to have utilities hunt. That is the responsibility of
the landlord doing the renting not some third party. WHen utilities are
cut, then the landlord would be the one responsible.
As an aside, it might be interesting to see if there are any
criminal penalties for the landlord who allows utilities to be cut
because of non-payment. If so, one more letter to the landlord saying he
has so much time to pay up and if he misses a payment the water will be
cut and he will be ratted out to whoever needs to know.
I would also slap a lien IMMEDIATELY so that he can't just sell
and sneak off.

"mm" wrote in message
...
This is OT, but you guys seem to know a lot.

I went to a Home Owners meeting tonight. The HOA plans to disconnect
the water of people who are delinquent on their fees, and the
management company rep says that it is *illegal* to tell the tenant
what is about to happen to him. That they can't tell him this without
the consent of the landlord. She says she has verified this with a the
HOA's lawyer, recently, but she knew it before that.

Could this be true?

Our HOA doesn't have many responsibilities, and the fees are only
about 110 dollars a quarter.

Despite that, owners of 7 of the 110 townhouses are 500 dollars or
more behind, and at 550 a year, they are from 1 to 4 years delinquent.

Several of the houses are owned by someone, usually someone who used
to live here, and rented to someone else. Most landlords pay their
fees on time, but one of the 7 who owes 500 dollars is a landlord.

The HOA has checked with a lawyer and since the HOA pays the water
bill for everyone, it is apparently legal for the HOA to turn off the
water to someone who owes money.

And they voted to do that tonight (They voted to do that last October
also, but didn't.)

BUT HERE IS THE KICKER. The management company rep says that it is
*illegal* to tell the tenant what is about to happen to him. That
they can't tell him this without the consent of the landlord. She says
she has verified this with a rental type lawyer, the HOA's lawyer,
recently, but she knew it before that.

Have you ever heard of this? I don't believe it.

This is Baltimore County, Md., but I'd be interested in any state's
laws.

I'm also annoyed because of the 12 or so people at the meeting, only 4
of us had any objection to this. Of the 4, one didn't say anything
until privately after the meeting, one said something a year ago but
doesn't seem to care anymore, and the other guy and I voted against
the water turnoff although there are other reasons he might have voted
against it. There may be some other quiet ones, but some were vocal
and imo they and anyone who agreed with them are very cold-blooded wrt
the tenant.

Background, not necessary for my question:
In sort-of defense of the Board, they have written to the owners over
and over, offerred a payment plan and arranged a payment plan with a
couple others who owed a lot of money, made appointments with some of
the owners on the current list only to have the owners not even show
up for the appointments, even though they agreed to them. The owners
are terrible, I agree.

But this one tenant, and other perhaps in the future, has paid
everything he owes afawk and he's the one who's going to lose his
water. If the landlord doesn't pay before the cutoff date, I'd bet it
will take at least 4 days before the tenant figures out** what the
problem is and gets his landlord to budge, or the tenant gives up and
pays the bill himself. If they disconnect him on a Thursday or
Friday, he'll be without water on the weekend too. One could of
course pay our treasurer, who lives in the n'hood, but they're so
cold-blooded, I'll bet they won't allow that or will take the money
but not turn the water on until Monday when a plumber can come.

OTOH, if they told the tenant a month in advance, he would have a
better chance of convincing the ll to pay, or maybe even withhold some
of his rent and make his own payment plan with the HOA. (Risky in Md.
for anyonne. Not risky in NYC for someone who knows a bit.)

**For one thing, he'll get home at 5:30, say Monday, to find he has no
water and he won't be able to reach the ll until the next day. When
they finally get a check, it will take them another day to send
someone out (even though we could probably buy a wrench and do it
ourselves. (The valve cases are locked with bolts with 5-sided heads,
but they must sell those somewhere.)



I would be VERY cautious doing this. Here is MA it is illeagal for water
or electricity to be shut off if there are children, elderly, terminal or
special needs people in the homes or properties. If any of these apply to
any of the tennants the HOA could be in for a whole world of hurt.
Was it a written vote? If not, I would demand a written vote just to
simply cover your own bacon.
I highly doubt that the HOA would have the authority to turn off a
tennants service regardless what the lawyer says. Their purpose is to "make
the community a better place" not act as a jail keeper. Why not contact the
local water company, building department etc and ask them? Once they flip
the valve without the proper due-dilagance ramifications could be huge.

My home owner association has most of its rights and duties carefully
described in a document that I received (and signed for) when I
bought my unit.

The other rights and duties are in the common and statutory law of my
state.

So the first thing to do at any home owner meeting that discusses
unpaid dues and remedies is to drag out all the covenants and copies
of statutory law and case law and see where you fit in the scheme of
things.

If you don't do this, then someone else should be running the
meetings. Otherwise, one day, you will all get hit very heavy in the
pocket book.




On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 01:50:36 -0400, mm
wrote:

This is OT, but you guys seem to know a lot.

I went to a Home Owners meeting tonight. The HOA plans to disconnect
the water of people who are delinquent on their fees, and the
management company rep says that it is *illegal* to tell the tenant
what is about to happen to him. That they can't tell him this without
the consent of the landlord. She says she has verified this with a the
HOA's lawyer, recently, but she knew it before that.

Could this be true?
snip

"mm" wrote in message
...
This is OT, but you guys seem to know a lot.

I went to a Home Owners meeting tonight. The HOA plans to disconnect
the water of people who are delinquent on their fees, and the
management company rep says that it is *illegal* to tell the tenant
what is about to happen to him. That they can't tell him this without
the consent of the landlord. She says she has verified this with a the
HOA's lawyer, recently, but she knew it before that.

Could this be true?

Our HOA doesn't have many responsibilities, and the fees are only
about 110 dollars a quarter.

Shutting off the water to a family with a hardship, disabled person, medical
needs, etc, could lead to some nasty legal implications. Just put a lien on
the property and 18% interest. That is often all that is needed.

110 dollars a quarter.

Shutting off the water to a family with a hardship, disabled person, medical
needs, etc, could lead to some nasty legal implications. Just put a lien on
the property and 18% interest. That is often all that is needed.




Geez, there ya go.

In Mass, it is illegal to shut off water to a tenant AFAIK. Shutting off
water is a pretty bad idea, if a lien is an available remedy

I would leave the aforementioned note if they insist on shutting off water

On Apr 27, 5:02 am, Norminn wrote:
....
... in Fl., I believe it is illegal in condos to refer to the
owner or violator by name in meetings - supposed to address them only by
unit number.
....

So you then walk down the row and read the name off the mailbox???

I can see such laws being passed, but they make little or no sense.

On Apr 27, 9:21 am, yourname wrote:
110 dollars a quarter.



Shutting off the water to a family with a hardship, disabled person, medical
needs, etc, could lead to some nasty legal implications. Just put a lien on
the property and 18% interest. That is often all that is needed.

Geez, there ya go.

In Mass, it is illegal to shut off water to a tenant AFAIK. Shutting off
water is a pretty bad idea, if a lien is an available remedy

I would leave the aforementioned note if they insist on shutting off water


I was president of a condo assoc here in NJ and from discussions I had
with our lawyer, I don't believe shutting off utilites is legal here
in NJ. To be clear, in our case, the water bill was not paid in
common by the association, so it's not exactly the same. However, I
did look into this enough that I don't think it would be legal to turn
it off even if the bill was being paid by the association for all the
units. There are strict laws governing this type of thing in many
states. Before I did it, I would get a second opinion from another
lawyer, who is very well versed in common interest property issues.
Another resource is the Community Association Institute, which
hopefully your association is a member of. This is a national
organization, with state chapters, that provide lots of helpful info
on laws, lobby for new laws, etc.

I also have to agree with those that wonder why your lawyer doesn't go
after them legally, instead of resorting to what should be a last
resort. Most HOA legal documents make it easy to file claims. For
example, if they miss their monthly payments, usually you can then
accelerate them and demand payment of a full year's assessment and go
after that amount. And filing a lien and ultimately foreclosing is
an option as well. Again, most HOA agreements also state that the
owner is responsible for not only the payment, but legal fees incurred
as well. One would think any competent lawyer would prefer that
route, as it makes him more money.

On Apr 27, 10:43�am, wrote:
On Apr 27, 9:21 am, yourname wrote:

110 dollars a quarter.

Shutting off the water to a family with a hardship, disabled person, medical
needs, etc, could lead to some nasty legal implications. *Just put a lien on
the property and 18% interest. *That is often all that is needed.

Geez, there ya go.

In Mass, it is illegal to shut off water to a tenant AFAIK. Shutting off
water is a pretty bad idea, if a lien is an available remedy

I would leave the aforementioned note if they insist on *shutting off water

I was president of a condo assoc here in NJ and from discussions I had
with our lawyer, I don't believe shutting off utilites is legal here
in NJ. * To be clear, in our case, the water bill was not paid in
common by the association, so it's not exactly the same. * However, I
did look into this enough that I don't think it would be legal to turn
it off even if the bill was being paid by the association for all the
units. * *There are strict laws governing this type of thing in many
states. * Before I did it, I would get a second opinion from another
lawyer, who is very well versed in common interest property issues.
Another resource is the Community Association Institute, which
hopefully your association is a member of. * *This is a national
organization, with state chapters, that provide lots of helpful info
on laws, lobby for new laws, etc.

I also have to agree with those that wonder why your lawyer doesn't go
after them legally, instead of resorting to what should be a last
resort. * Most HOA legal documents make it easy to file claims. *For
example, if they miss their monthly payments, usually you can then
accelerate them and demand payment of a full year's assessment and go
after that amount. * And filing a lien and ultimately foreclosing is
an option as well. *Again, most HOA agreements also state that the
owner is responsible for not only the payment, but legal fees incurred
as well. *One would think any competent lawyer would prefer that
route, as it makes him more money.

at least let the tenant know whats coming, a quick phone call or
friendl;y visit.

you might also call local government and ask.

wonder what the liability is for the lawer, HOA, and voting members if
the water is cut off, a minor fire occurs, that spreads thruout the
building?

the other units insurance companies might have a $$ field day.

plus if the tenant losing water goes to the media, do they really want
your complex in the news this way?

mm wrote:

I went to a Home Owners meeting tonight. The HOA plans to disconnect
the water of people who are delinquent on their fees, and the
management company rep says that it is *illegal* to tell the tenant
what is about to happen to him. That they can't tell him this without
the consent of the landlord. She says she has verified this with a the
HOA's lawyer, recently, but she knew it before that.

Could this be true?

Sure it could. The HOA's relationship is with the property owner, not
with the tenant. So the HOA may not have a right to butt in.

However, that doesn't preclude any neighbor or other individual (as
opposed to the HOA) casually mentioning it to the tenant, or leaving a
note on the tenant's door. Dilemma solved in a way that doesn't
officially drag the HOA into the mess.

Our HOA doesn't have many responsibilities, and the fees are only
about 110 dollars a quarter.

They'll start climbing for the rest of you dues-paying members as the
deadbeats continue to renege on their payments. That's exactly what
the HOA is worried about. It's odd that you don't seem to be
concerned. Don't you object to having to pay your deadbeat neighbors'
shares of the expenses in addition to your own?

Despite that, owners of 7 of the 110 townhouses are 500 dollars or
more behind, and at 550 a year, they are from 1 to 4 years delinquent.

Expect the number to grow as more debt-ridden desperate folks start
skipping payments. It's common for cash-strapped homeowners to skip
HOA payments while trying to keep up with their mortgage payments, so
that may very well be what's happening in this situation. If they are
seriously-debt stressed, their financial troubles will create more
problems for the HOA as their financial situation deteriorates.
Meaning their problems will become yours.

If I were you, I'd take the addresses of these townhomes down to the
county's property records division and see if Notices of Default have
been filed. The rest of you folks in the HOA will have a nasty
surprise if/when homes in the community start going into foreclosure.

The HOA has checked with a lawyer and since the HOA pays the water
bill for everyone, it is apparently legal for the HOA to turn off the
water to someone who owes money.

And this is wrong because...?
(Personally, I think enabling deadbeats is wrong. But that's just me.)

And they voted to do that tonight (They voted to do that last October
also, but didn't.)

Good for them!

BUT HERE IS THE KICKER. The management company rep says that it is
*illegal* to tell the tenant what is about to happen to him. That
they can't tell him this without the consent of the landlord. She says
she has verified this with a rental type lawyer, the HOA's lawyer,
recently, but she knew it before that.

So the HOA itself cannot *officially* notify the tenant. As noted,
there's nothing stopping anyone else from unofficially taking matters
into his/her own hands - as long as s/he isn't acting on behalf of the
HOA.

For that matter, there's nothing stopping anyone else from
volunteering to pay this deadbeat's bill. If this is such a matter of
concern for you, perhaps you should consider assuming the
responsbility for this property's HOA fees. One way or another, if the
property owner continues to default, you and the other community
members are going to have to pay it, anyway. You could be selfless and
carry the entire cost yourself.

I'm also annoyed because of the 12 or so people at the meeting, only 4
of us had any objection to this.

Oh, for pete's sake. If you are so outraged that your HOA is
attempting to compel someone to pay their bills, why don't you just
pay it for them? Are you nuts? Who do you think gets stuck with the
bills when other members of the HOA don't pay? If you are truly a
member of this community, you have a vested interest in compelling the
other property owners to pay their agreed-upon share of the costs.

Unless you're one of the deadbeats, in which case it's obvious why
you're irate.

Background, not necessary for my question:
In sort-of defense of the Board, they have written to the owners over
and over, offerred a payment plan and arranged a payment plan with a
couple others who owed a lot of money, made appointments with some of
the owners on the current list only to have the owners not even show
up for the appointments, even though they agreed to them. The owners
are terrible, I agree.

The property owner has options. They can pay. They can sell their
property.
The renter has options. If the HOA cuts off the water, the renter can
move. The renter can pay the arrears, then pursue a claim against the
landlord.

But this one tenant, and other perhaps in the future, has paid
everything he owes afawk and he's the one who's going to lose his
water.

If I were the renter, I'd be even more concerned about the risk of
losing my deposit, or coming home and finding an eviction notice
because the house has been foreclosed upon. Because if the landlord
can't bother to pay the HOA fees, he's probably cash-strapped, and has
probably spent the deposit, and is probably behind on the mortgage
payments. And if the home gets foreclosed on, the bank will probably
require the renter to vacate asap.

OTOH, if they told the tenant a month in advance, he would have a
better chance of convincing the ll to pay,

Get real. If the legal threats from the HOA got nowhere, the renter
will get nowhere. The landlord will ignore him, too.

You wanna be a good neighbor? Warn the tenant to go down to the county
and check on the status of the property he's renting. He can find out
if his landlord has been paying his property taxes or if he's received
a notice of default on his mortgage. If the landlord can't pay a
fairly cheap HOA bill, the landlord's (in) trouble. Time for the
tenant to find a more trustworthy landlord.

Or you can pay the property owner a visit yourself. Again, look up the
info at the county. Then you can approach the guy and appeal to his
better nature. Let us know how that works out.

HellT

I went to a Home Owners meeting tonight. The HOA plans to disconnect
the water of people who are delinquent on their fees, and the
management company rep says that it is *illegal* to tell the tenant
what is about to happen to him. That they can't tell him this without
the consent of the landlord. She says she has verified this with a the
HOA's lawyer, recently, but she knew it before that.

Could this be true?

Asking the HOA's attorney about the HOA is like consulting the fox that's
watching the hen house.

Go to the Governor's Council on Consumer Affairs in your state, or the
agency that regulates HOAs.

HOAs recently (thank God) are coming under more control and scrutiny by
governments.

I do reserve studies for management companies who then pass them off to
HOAs. We're the guys who count up how much landscaping, parking lots,
lights, pools, sidewalks, curbs, etc, you have, and provide a five year
projected budget for the association so they can then set the dues for the
next five years on the projections. So, I do know a bit about HOAs.

That being said, they vary from state to state. I would check with the
Governor's Office before I took the word of the HOA. It doesn't sound right
that they can fool with public utilities unless it is causing an emergency
situation. What if, say, they cut off water or power, and there was a
disabled person in there who would be endangered by such actions?

I don't think messing with public utilities, and public utility property
(the meters) is as simple a thing as they think it is.

See if your state has an ombudsman for HOAs. Many have them now, and they
can cut short many a paper trail.

Good luck.

I wouldn't live in a HOA for any reason! Here in Las Vegas, you get your CC
and R's on CLOSING. Nice time to read them and see if you want to live
there, eh?

Steve

Once ther roofs need replaced association fees will skyrocket

I refuse to live in a a HOA area, my home totally my decisions!!!

mm wrote:

On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 05:09:47 -0400, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com wrote:


mm wrote:

This is OT, but you guys seem to know a lot.

I went to a Home Owners meeting tonight. The HOA plans to disconnect
the water of people who are delinquent on their fees, and the
management company rep says that it is *illegal* to tell the tenant
what is about to happen to him. That they can't tell him this without
the consent of the landlord. She says she has verified this with a the
HOA's lawyer, recently, but she knew it before that.

Could this be true?


Why don't you call the city and ask them?


I don't think I could find someone who could answer the question.

If they meant it was a violation of a criminal law, I could call the
prosecutor I guess, but they probably mean it's a civil wrong, and no
one at the city is going to want to answer such a question.

A judge might know the answer, but he'll want to hear both sides of
the case in a hearing with witnesses. But I don't think he would
talk to me at all. His secretary will tell me to consult a lawyer.

I think the customary way to learn how to run a HOA or condo assn. is in
learning from mistakes! Typical board members are those who want to
control every detail to conform to their own idea of what is "right",
and go overboard in rules enforcement...generally are poor planners and
make issues "personal".

I would NEVER approach an owner to ask about overdue fees or
assessments, no matter what .. that makes it personal. Your management
company can send a letter, certified mail, whenever there is a
delinquency or rules violation. The cost can (or should) be added onto
the amount due. That matter should be in your bylaws. A HOA is not a
club, it is a business. In Fl., condo associations are "corporations
not for profit" (usually) and are governed by rules pretty close to
those for corporate boards in business.

If your units have water meters, why is the HOA collecting the fees? If
they don't have meters, why not get them? Then the city can collect and
shut off the water if not paid. Too many other things to **** about
than to go for years with unpaid bills )

clipped

I also have to agree with those that wonder why your lawyer doesn't go
after them legally, instead of resorting to what should be a last
resort. Most HOA legal documents make it easy to file claims. For
example, if they miss their monthly payments, usually you can then
accelerate them and demand payment of a full year's assessment and go
after that amount. And filing a lien and ultimately foreclosing is
an option as well. Again, most HOA agreements also state that the
owner is responsible for not only the payment, but legal fees incurred
as well. One would think any competent lawyer would prefer that
route, as it makes him more money.

In Fl., HOA's and condo assns are governed by different sets of laws.
One clear aspect that I have read about is the "fiduciary duty" of board
members and the principle that they can be sued personally for not doing
their fiduciary duty. The law may have since changed, but it would be
interesting to file small claims against the board members who neglected
to collect the unpaid fees )

Fl. HOA's and condo assns. can have fines for late payments or rules
violations, but fines for rules violations are generally considered a
bad idea. I was told by a cert. assn. manager that a board member
cannot vote on a fine against a member of his/her own family. Makes
sense. But in the original issue of this thread, it might be legal but
certainly not the best choice to implicate the renter in the dispute.
By shutting off the water, the board is really punishing the renter for
their own negligence. If my assn. was doing that, I would send a
letter, cert. mail, to disagree with the decision...it isn't worth the
potential difficulty to collect relatively small amounts of money. When
other owners see the unpaid fees on their statements, they might want to
change how things are run, or even serve on the board. With 110 units
in the assn, there should be a couple of owners with some decent
business sense.

clipped

I wouldn't live in a HOA for any reason! Here in Las Vegas, you get your CC
and R's on CLOSING. Nice time to read them and see if you want to live
there, eh?

Steve


That is the only obligation of the HOA because they serve owners. No
reason not to ask the owner for a copy if you are considering a
purchase. I would never, in a million years, buy into a HOA or condo
again. In FL, unit owners in condo's can vote down keeping reserves,
but reserve amounts have to be stated (I believe).

wrote:

Once ther roofs need replaced association fees will skyrocket

I refuse to live in a a HOA area, my home totally my decisions!!!


Unless the zoning board disagrees )

On Apr 27, 12:50 am, mm wrote:
....
...HOA plans to disconnect the water of people who are delinquent on their fees, and the management company rep says that it is *illegal* to tell the tenant
what is about to happen to him. That they can't tell him this without
the consent of the landlord. She says she has verified this with a the
HOA's lawyer, recently, but she knew it before that.
....
The HOA has checked with a lawyer and since the HOA pays the water
bill for everyone, it is apparently legal for the HOA to turn off the
water to someone who owes money.
....

Various others have various degrees of sound advice -- mine is similar
but if I were on the Board and concerned (which I would be), the items
of concern and actions I'd take include--

1. Someone else mentioned checking on all covenants of the board and
its charter to ensure _you_ know what they say, not what somebody else
says they say. This, fundamentally, is the best advice given and the
other is that depending on state law where you are, it is quite
possible you may be liable individually for any breach of rules/law as
well as the board in general. The HOA _DOES_ have Directors'
Liability policy, I hope? I wouldn't even consider serving on such a
board if it does not.

2. If the laws/regulations are as being quoted, the attorney should
be able to provide chapter and verse of which law(s) are being quoted
and you should be able to ascertain whether it appears they really are
or not. A second opinion here from either another attorney or simply
the State AG's office or ombudsman if they have one wouldn't be bad
idea. The idea of contacting a national association for HOA's is also
an excellent one.

3. I would be _very_ surprised if there aren't rules against cutting
off utilities to individual apartments even if the renter isn't the
responsible party w/o notification. I understand the legal contract
w/ the HOA is w/ the landlord, not the renter, but still I would be
leery in taken unilateral action w/o notification.

4. In that regard, do the HOA rules prevent the notification to the
other members of the Association of a total list of dues/fees
outstanding? Is this not part of an annual report at least as part of
the accounting of the Board to its members? If so, simply posting
that notice would have the desired effect.

5. I also agree in principle that it seems the Board has been
derelict in not collecting owed fees in a timely fashion and in taking
a more proactive stance previously. I understand they're now
attempting to do this, but figure this is the wrong way to go at it --
primarily, as you point out, for the most part it isn't the offending
party that whose ox is being gored but a bystander. The question of
whether the renter would choose to pay simply to retain service is an
interesting one -- I don't see that the HOA would have much leg to
stand on if the water assessment were paid even if the total wasn't...

BUT HERE IS THE KICKER. The management company rep says that it is
*illegal* to tell the tenant what is about to happen to him. That
they can't tell him this without the consent of the landlord. She says
she has verified this with a rental type lawyer, the HOA's lawyer,
recently, but she knew it before that.


Non Scriptum, non est. Any time someone tells you somthing
about the law that doesn't make sense, make them show you the
law in question.

In this case, my suspicion is that it's not legal for you
to be going after the tennant (who has no contractual
relationship with you) for monies owed by the landlord.

But I'd be surprised if a simple notification that the
water will be shut off in (say) 10 days was against the law.

IOW, I suspect that you can warn them, but not threaten them.

--Goedjn

Norminn wrote:
wrote:

Once ther roofs need replaced association fees will skyrocket

I refuse to live in a a HOA area, my home totally my decisions!!!


Unless the zoning board disagrees )

We don't have a zoning board in Houston. We do, however, have HOA and Civic
Associations. Plus a new gizmo, Tax Improvment Districts.

BUT HERE IS THE KICKER. The management company rep says that it is
*illegal* to tell the tenant what is about to happen to him. That
they can't tell him this without the consent of the landlord. She says
she has verified this with a rental type lawyer, the HOA's lawyer,
recently, but she knew it before that.

So the HOA itself cannot *officially* notify the tenant. As noted,
there's nothing stopping anyone else from unofficially taking matters
into his/her own hands - as long as s/he isn't acting on behalf of the
HOA.

I seriously doubt that this is true. If you are a utility provider,
(which you apparently are, if you can shut off the water
and not just ask the water co. to do it), then you can certainly
tell the occupants that you're going to do so, just as if it were
a normal maintenance notice. When they ask why or for how long,
you then say "your landlord has the details, talk to them."

On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 01:50:36 -0400, mm
wrote:

This is OT, but you guys seem to know a lot.

I went to a Home Owners meeting tonight. The HOA plans to disconnect
the water of people who are delinquent on their fees, and the
management company rep says that it is *illegal* to tell the tenant
what is about to happen to him. That they can't tell him this without
the consent of the landlord. She says she has verified this with a the
HOA's lawyer, recently, but she knew it before that.

Could this be true?

" What is the Maryland Homeowners Association Act?
The Maryland Legislature has adopted laws requiring disclosures to
purchasers that a lot is located within a homeowners association for
which fees must be paid; sets forth warranties; rules regarding
meetings of the association; family day care activities and other
aspects of homeowners associations. The Maryland Homeowners
Association Act is codified and can be found in the Annotated Code of
Maryland as part of the Real Property Article, Title 11B. The Act is
refined by amendments from year to year. "

In NV the legislature has been getting involved in HOA abuse. Some HOA
issued fines for parking on the street. The streets are public
property and cannot be controlled by the HOA. One HOA that happens to
be "gated community" has a friggin radar gun out to catch speeders.
Because it is gated they are able to do this, because "the members
want it".

HOA's went through this about Sat TV dishes, Rolladen shutters, etc..
The owners won and the CC&R were amended.




Our HOA doesn't have many responsibilities, and the fees are only
about 110 dollars a quarter.

Despite that, owners of 7 of the 110 townhouses are 500 dollars or
more behind, and at 550 a year, they are from 1 to 4 years delinquent.

Several of the houses are owned by someone, usually someone who used
to live here, and rented to someone else. Most landlords pay their
fees on time, but one of the 7 who owes 500 dollars is a landlord.

The HOA has checked with a lawyer and since the HOA pays the water
bill for everyone, it is apparently legal for the HOA to turn off the
water to someone who owes money.

And they voted to do that tonight (They voted to do that last October
also, but didn't.)

BUT HERE IS THE KICKER. The management company rep says that it is
*illegal* to tell the tenant what is about to happen to him. That
they can't tell him this without the consent of the landlord. She says
she has verified this with a rental type lawyer, the HOA's lawyer,
recently, but she knew it before that.

Have you ever heard of this? I don't believe it.

This is Baltimore County, Md., but I'd be interested in any state's
laws.

I'm also annoyed because of the 12 or so people at the meeting, only 4
of us had any objection to this. Of the 4, one didn't say anything
until privately after the meeting, one said something a year ago but
doesn't seem to care anymore, and the other guy and I voted against
the water turnoff although there are other reasons he might have voted
against it. There may be some other quiet ones, but some were vocal
and imo they and anyone who agreed with them are very cold-blooded wrt
the tenant.

Background, not necessary for my question:
In sort-of defense of the Board, they have written to the owners over
and over, offerred a payment plan and arranged a payment plan with a
couple others who owed a lot of money, made appointments with some of
the owners on the current list only to have the owners not even show
up for the appointments, even though they agreed to them. The owners
are terrible, I agree.

But this one tenant, and other perhaps in the future, has paid
everything he owes afawk and he's the one who's going to lose his
water. If the landlord doesn't pay before the cutoff date, I'd bet it
will take at least 4 days before the tenant figures out** what the
problem is and gets his landlord to budge, or the tenant gives up and
pays the bill himself. If they disconnect him on a Thursday or
Friday, he'll be without water on the weekend too. One could of
course pay our treasurer, who lives in the n'hood, but they're so
cold-blooded, I'll bet they won't allow that or will take the money
but not turn the water on until Monday when a plumber can come.

OTOH, if they told the tenant a month in advance, he would have a
better chance of convincing the ll to pay, or maybe even withhold some
of his rent and make his own payment plan with the HOA. (Risky in Md.
for anyonne. Not risky in NYC for someone who knows a bit.)

**For one thing, he'll get home at 5:30, say Monday, to find he has no
water and he won't be able to reach the ll until the next day. When
they finally get a check, it will take them another day to send
someone out (even though we could probably buy a wrench and do it
ourselves. (The valve cases are locked with bolts with 5-sided heads,
but they must sell those somewhere.)



--
Oren

"I don't have anything against work. I just figure, why deprive somebody who really loves it."

On 27 Apr 2007 07:43:17 -0700, wrote:

On Apr 27, 9:21 am, yourname wrote:
110 dollars a quarter.



Shutting off the water to a family with a hardship, disabled person, medical
needs, etc, could lead to some nasty legal implications. Just put a lien on
the property and 18% interest. That is often all that is needed.

Geez, there ya go.

In Mass, it is illegal to shut off water to a tenant AFAIK. Shutting off
water is a pretty bad idea, if a lien is an available remedy

I would leave the aforementioned note if they insist on shutting off water

I've been resisting saying I might do that, because when I was in
Guatemala, I bumped into 8 people I knew in 8 weeks**, and I hardly
knew anyone, so even though the odds are really low, I imagine that
one of the other board members or the management company rep or one of
her co-workers will come across this thread.

But I've been considering that, and the guy at the meeting who
originally was concerned about the tenant also suggested it, after I
brought it up. Maybe I should have mentioned that when I said he
didn't mention it when he made his motion. Like I said in my first
post, I'd like to have more facts in my favor anyhow.

**I was sitting in the lobby of my hotel, wide open to the street,
waiting for my broken leg to heal, and the border guard I had met at
least 2 weeks earlier, and hundreds of miles away, walked by and
recognized me! Hobbling down another street and bumped into someone
who met me at the hospital. I think Guatamala City had 300,000 people
then.

I was president of a condo assoc here in NJ and from discussions I had
with our lawyer, I don't believe shutting off utilites is legal here
in NJ. To be clear, in our case, the water bill was not paid in
common by the association, so it's not exactly the same. However, I
did look into this enough that I don't think it would be legal to turn
it off even if the bill was being paid by the association for all the
units. There are strict laws governing this type of thing in many
states. Before I did it, I would get a second opinion from another
lawyer, who is very well versed in common interest property issues.
Another resource is the Community Association Institute, which

Do you know how many false hits one gets with a name that includes
association *and* institute? But Google is not stupid and it came
up first, even with no quotes! There are indeed two chapters in Md,
and one is on the other side of Baltimore but the current president
lives one big neighborhood over, only 5 miles from me. I'm figuring
he lives there since all 3 addresses given look definitely.

She belongs to an HOA of a n'hood I've never heard of, but they are
constantly building houses in that area.

I'm not going to lie and say we might joing, but maybe she'll give me
some free information. But I can't call her until I learn more about
why we aren't going the lien method all the way to foreclosure.

hopefully your association is a member of.

We're not. We do belong to some local community orgs, or send people
to attend their meetings, but not even so many of that. Only 110
houses and few stay at home house-wives who actually do usually serve
a good role in things like this.

This is a national
organization, with state chapters, that provide lots of helpful info
on laws, lobby for new laws, etc.

I also have to agree with those that wonder why your lawyer doesn't go
after them legally, instead of resorting to what should be a last
resort. Most HOA legal documents make it easy to file claims. For
example, if they miss their monthly payments, usually you can then
accelerate them and demand payment of a full year's assessment and go
after that amount.

We don't have that. I'll suggest it, but we also haven't been very
successful in amending the bylaws.

And filing a lien and ultimately foreclosing is
an option as well. Again, most HOA agreements also state that the
owner is responsible for not only the payment, but legal fees incurred
as well. One would think any competent lawyer would prefer that
route, as it makes him more money.

Yeah. I got to learn more about this part.

In answer to Brian V, who said:
Why not contact the
local water company, building department etc and ask them?

I think that's a good idea in that it would be a lot easier to get an
answer than from the water company than a judge. Because, they'd
probably disagree with me but i think the water company must have
fewer issues and fewer legal issues.

Well, I just called the water company, and even though I started with
the Baltimore County number, I got referred to another number and
midway in the conversation I found out she was giving me Baltimore
City rules and didn't know about Baltimore County (which doesn't
overlap the city at all.) so she gave me to her supervisor, who said
they could not disconnect an individual house in my situation. They
only disconnect where there is a meter, and we all share one meter.
Even though there are individual valves. So she didn't know anything
really about this. She did say that multiple homes sharing one meter
is not unusual at all, and sometimes they arrange to bill based on the
number of people living in each house. I would save a little if they
did that, but then we would have to have a PPHMC, a Person Per House
Monitoring Commission, and that would be bad. (Right now each house
pays the same.)

On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 16:57:25 -0400, mm
wrote:

but then we would have to have a PPHMC, a Person Per House
Monitoring Commission, and that would be bad. (Right now each house
pays the same.)

Four billion people coming to an area near in the next 50 years.....

--
Oren

"I don't have anything against work. I just figure, why deprive somebody who really loves it."

On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 17:36:43 GMT, Norminn
wrote:

wrote:

Once ther roofs need replaced association fees will skyrocket

I refuse to live in a a HOA area, my home totally my decisions!!!


Unless the zoning board disagrees )

Yeah. In Maryland or most of Maryland no new neighborhood can be built
in the last 25 years or more without an HOA. The HOA doesn't have to
meet or do anything, but it must exist.

I suppose if you buy a piece of land and build one or two houses, this
doesn't apply.

I had a next door neighbor like you, Hallerb, though. They were
supposed to get my approval for their new enlarged deck, and so they
brought the plans over just after they started unloading the wood to
do the job that day. I would have signed it, but I was annoyed so I
kept them waiting five minutes, although the construction crew didn't
wait.

About then I heard the wife walking away grumbling, no one's going to
tell me what to do with my own house.

The only thing that makes this unusual is that she was a lawyer.

On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 16:57:25 -0400, mm
wrote:

OOps.

I'm figuring
he lives there since all 3 addresses given look definitely.
she lives there definitely residential.

She belongs to an HOA of a n'hood I've never heard of, but they are
constantly building houses in that area.

I'm not going to lie and say we might joing, but maybe she'll give me
joining
some free information. But I can't call her until I learn more about
why we aren't going the lien method all the way to foreclosure.

On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 14:26:33 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 16:57:25 -0400, mm
wrote:

but then we would have to have a PPHMC, a Person Per House
Monitoring Commission, and that would be bad. (Right now each house
pays the same.)

Four billion people coming to an area near in the next 50 years.....

I hope they have an HOA.

On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 18:01:19 -0400, mm
wrote:
Yeah. In Maryland or most of Maryland no new neighborhood can be built
in the last 25 years or more without an HOA. The HOA doesn't have to
meet or do anything, but it must exist.

Developers are establishing the HOA's. Some documents I've read; and
they might be current to me now mean an election of officers must
take place to fill the post.


--
Oren

"I don't have anything against work. I just figure, why deprive somebody who really loves it."

On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 18:12:19 -0400, mm
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 14:26:33 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 16:57:25 -0400, mm
wrote:

but then we would have to have a PPHMC, a Person Per House
Monitoring Commission, and that would be bad. (Right now each house
pays the same.)

Four billion people coming to an area near in the next 50 years.....

I hope they have an HOA.


Nope. It will be PPHMC(A)ssociation.
--
Oren

"I don't have anything against work. I just figure, why deprive somebody who really loves it."