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#1
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OT cutting off water for landlord/tenant
This is OT, but you guys seem to know a lot.
I went to a Home Owners meeting tonight. The HOA plans to disconnect the water of people who are delinquent on their fees, and the management company rep says that it is *illegal* to tell the tenant what is about to happen to him. That they can't tell him this without the consent of the landlord. She says she has verified this with a the HOA's lawyer, recently, but she knew it before that. Could this be true? Our HOA doesn't have many responsibilities, and the fees are only about 110 dollars a quarter. Despite that, owners of 7 of the 110 townhouses are 500 dollars or more behind, and at 550 a year, they are from 1 to 4 years delinquent. Several of the houses are owned by someone, usually someone who used to live here, and rented to someone else. Most landlords pay their fees on time, but one of the 7 who owes 500 dollars is a landlord. The HOA has checked with a lawyer and since the HOA pays the water bill for everyone, it is apparently legal for the HOA to turn off the water to someone who owes money. And they voted to do that tonight (They voted to do that last October also, but didn't.) BUT HERE IS THE KICKER. The management company rep says that it is *illegal* to tell the tenant what is about to happen to him. That they can't tell him this without the consent of the landlord. She says she has verified this with a rental type lawyer, the HOA's lawyer, recently, but she knew it before that. Have you ever heard of this? I don't believe it. This is Baltimore County, Md., but I'd be interested in any state's laws. I'm also annoyed because of the 12 or so people at the meeting, only 4 of us had any objection to this. Of the 4, one didn't say anything until privately after the meeting, one said something a year ago but doesn't seem to care anymore, and the other guy and I voted against the water turnoff although there are other reasons he might have voted against it. There may be some other quiet ones, but some were vocal and imo they and anyone who agreed with them are very cold-blooded wrt the tenant. Background, not necessary for my question: In sort-of defense of the Board, they have written to the owners over and over, offerred a payment plan and arranged a payment plan with a couple others who owed a lot of money, made appointments with some of the owners on the current list only to have the owners not even show up for the appointments, even though they agreed to them. The owners are terrible, I agree. But this one tenant, and other perhaps in the future, has paid everything he owes afawk and he's the one who's going to lose his water. If the landlord doesn't pay before the cutoff date, I'd bet it will take at least 4 days before the tenant figures out** what the problem is and gets his landlord to budge, or the tenant gives up and pays the bill himself. If they disconnect him on a Thursday or Friday, he'll be without water on the weekend too. One could of course pay our treasurer, who lives in the n'hood, but they're so cold-blooded, I'll bet they won't allow that or will take the money but not turn the water on until Monday when a plumber can come. OTOH, if they told the tenant a month in advance, he would have a better chance of convincing the ll to pay, or maybe even withhold some of his rent and make his own payment plan with the HOA. (Risky in Md. for anyonne. Not risky in NYC for someone who knows a bit.) **For one thing, he'll get home at 5:30, say Monday, to find he has no water and he won't be able to reach the ll until the next day. When they finally get a check, it will take them another day to send someone out (even though we could probably buy a wrench and do it ourselves. (The valve cases are locked with bolts with 5-sided heads, but they must sell those somewhere.) |
#2
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OT cutting off water for landlord/tenant
This is weird. Seems to me that the HOA is opting to punish the tenant
rather than the owner. If this is going to be done, I would think it ought to be done just before the end of the month, and then the tenant could pay the water bill and deduct it from the rent due the landlord. In the alternative, the HOA could just file a lien and threaten to foreclose on the property and not worry about the silly water issue. -- __ Roger Shoaf Important factors in selecting a mate: 1] Depth of gene pool 2] Position on the food chain. "mm" wrote in message ... This is OT, but you guys seem to know a lot. I went to a Home Owners meeting tonight. The HOA plans to disconnect the water of people who are delinquent on their fees, and the management company rep says that it is *illegal* to tell the tenant what is about to happen to him. That they can't tell him this without the consent of the landlord. She says she has verified this with a the HOA's lawyer, recently, but she knew it before that. Could this be true? Our HOA doesn't have many responsibilities, and the fees are only about 110 dollars a quarter. Despite that, owners of 7 of the 110 townhouses are 500 dollars or more behind, and at 550 a year, they are from 1 to 4 years delinquent. Several of the houses are owned by someone, usually someone who used to live here, and rented to someone else. Most landlords pay their fees on time, but one of the 7 who owes 500 dollars is a landlord. The HOA has checked with a lawyer and since the HOA pays the water bill for everyone, it is apparently legal for the HOA to turn off the water to someone who owes money. And they voted to do that tonight (They voted to do that last October also, but didn't.) BUT HERE IS THE KICKER. The management company rep says that it is *illegal* to tell the tenant what is about to happen to him. That they can't tell him this without the consent of the landlord. She says she has verified this with a rental type lawyer, the HOA's lawyer, recently, but she knew it before that. Have you ever heard of this? I don't believe it. This is Baltimore County, Md., but I'd be interested in any state's laws. I'm also annoyed because of the 12 or so people at the meeting, only 4 of us had any objection to this. Of the 4, one didn't say anything until privately after the meeting, one said something a year ago but doesn't seem to care anymore, and the other guy and I voted against the water turnoff although there are other reasons he might have voted against it. There may be some other quiet ones, but some were vocal and imo they and anyone who agreed with them are very cold-blooded wrt the tenant. Background, not necessary for my question: In sort-of defense of the Board, they have written to the owners over and over, offerred a payment plan and arranged a payment plan with a couple others who owed a lot of money, made appointments with some of the owners on the current list only to have the owners not even show up for the appointments, even though they agreed to them. The owners are terrible, I agree. But this one tenant, and other perhaps in the future, has paid everything he owes afawk and he's the one who's going to lose his water. If the landlord doesn't pay before the cutoff date, I'd bet it will take at least 4 days before the tenant figures out** what the problem is and gets his landlord to budge, or the tenant gives up and pays the bill himself. If they disconnect him on a Thursday or Friday, he'll be without water on the weekend too. One could of course pay our treasurer, who lives in the n'hood, but they're so cold-blooded, I'll bet they won't allow that or will take the money but not turn the water on until Monday when a plumber can come. OTOH, if they told the tenant a month in advance, he would have a better chance of convincing the ll to pay, or maybe even withhold some of his rent and make his own payment plan with the HOA. (Risky in Md. for anyonne. Not risky in NYC for someone who knows a bit.) **For one thing, he'll get home at 5:30, say Monday, to find he has no water and he won't be able to reach the ll until the next day. When they finally get a check, it will take them another day to send someone out (even though we could probably buy a wrench and do it ourselves. (The valve cases are locked with bolts with 5-sided heads, but they must sell those somewhere.) |
#3
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OT cutting off water for landlord/tenant
On Thu, 26 Apr 2007 23:16:33 -0700, "Roger Shoaf"
wrote: This is weird. Seems to me that the HOA is opting to punish the tenant rather than the owner. Most of them don't seem to care who they hurt. If the vocal ones, 2 or 3 of them, had even said, "It's a shame that the tenant will suffer, but we have to go this way" that would have upgraded my opinion of their souls, if not their common sense. If this is going to be done, I would think it ought to be done just before the end of the month, and then the tenant could pay the water bill and deduct it from the rent due the landlord. I used to know 60 of the 110 neighbors, but a lot of people stay for a few years and move to bigger homes. I guess others can't pay the bills and move to smaller homes. Unrelated to my current problem, there is one family whose son was on the honor roll and the varsity football team, went to a good college, got a job at a Fortune 500 company, and he is making a good living, and both his parents have real jobs that pay decent salaries also. And the parents are often on the delinquent list. I think he told me once he didn't pay on principle -- he was mad at them -- but it's hard to believe that's still the reason 14 years later. Oops. For 90+ days, now he only owes 24 cents. In the alternative, the HOA could just file a lien and threaten to foreclose on the property and not worry about the silly water issue. Good point. I'll check on this. I think they have to get a judgement before they can file a lien, but all these costs are passed on to the homeowner, and they *were* doing this. I think we had a lawyer who we paid for other legal services, but who would do all this "liening" with no money from us. Oh, yeah, iirc the real hard cases he would stop trying on. Maybe he threatened to foreclose and they called his bluff, but I don't know why he didn't foreclose. OTOH, nobody owes more than 2500 dollars, which is 4 1/2 years worth, but we've had this problem, at least with one or two people, for the whole 24 years I've been here. I think 2 people somehow got away without paying, but afaik that means that everyone else paid up as of 4 years ago, and only three other people owe from between 2 and 4 years ago. So as long as we're getting the money eventually, and I suppose we get some interest too, I don't know why they're so upset. They seem to take it as a personal insult. I suppose a portion of these delinquents are intentional deadbeats, meaning they have the money but still don't want to pay, but I'm glad to say that I don't care. I have enough things that annoy me and I'm glad this one doesn't. I certainly don't take it personally. I was on the board for several years, then off for several years. FWIW, we used to have monthly meetings, and now we have quarterly meetings and I've been going again since last July and have been on the board again since January. When I used to go, they regularly did the lien thing, and were supposed to threaten to foreclose, and I either can't remember what happened, or it happened after I stopped going to the meetings. I also stopped meeting or at least remembering neighbors and I know a lot of my favorite people moved away. But I found tonight that one of the nicest people, who I get along with enough to call her a friend, was on the board most of the time I wasn't. I'm going to ask her about this. |
#4
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OT cutting off water for landlord/tenant
clipped
I also stopped meeting or at least remembering neighbors and I know a lot of my favorite people moved away. But I found tonight that one of the nicest people, who I get along with enough to call her a friend, was on the board most of the time I wasn't. I'm going to ask her about this. Monthly meetings in a HOA of that size are likely a waste of time, unless the board members like ****ing contests over rules violations or adding amenities. If you don't go to meetings and/or take your turn at being a board member, you are part of the problem ) The best solution is to acquaint yourself with owners who might be willing to be on the board and recognize the function as a business operation, not an opportunity to control everyone and everything. In Fl., board members can be PERSONALLY liable for ignoring their fiduciary DUTY as board member! If you have years and years of delinquent water bills, the board has been negligent...it is their duty to collect funds owed to the association. |
#5
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OT cutting off water for landlord/tenant
On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 10:29:49 GMT, Norminn
wrote: clipped I also stopped meeting or at least remembering neighbors and I know a lot of my favorite people moved away. But I found tonight that one of the nicest people, who I get along with enough to call her a friend, was on the board most of the time I wasn't. I'm going to ask her about this. Monthly meetings in a HOA of that size are likely a waste of time, I guess so, but under the current system, I think the president is too unchecked. Of course she was unchecked under the monthly system too, but we found out about it sooner. unless the board members like ****ing contests over rules violations or adding amenities. If you don't go to meetings and/or take your turn at being a board member, you are part of the problem ) I don't think that people have a duty to either go to meetings or be on the board. Those who do serve on the board have a duty to do their jobs right, if it doesnt' require excessive time. Most chores require about the amount of time one would expect. The best solution is to acquaint yourself with owners who might be willing to be on the board and recognize the function as a business operation, not an opportunity to control everyone and everything. In Fl., board members can be PERSONALLY liable for ignoring their fiduciary DUTY as board member! If you have years and years of delinquent water bills, the board has been negligent...it is their duty to collect funds owed to the association. We have never stopped trying. We have a lawyer, who is admitted to the bar and empowered to go after them. So the Board has not been negligent. If anything, I think they are too invested in getting the money back. Maybe a couple have pressing financial needs, but I think it is more their personalities. |
#6
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OT cutting off water for landlord/tenant
mm wrote:
This is OT, but you guys seem to know a lot. I went to a Home Owners meeting tonight. The HOA plans to disconnect the water of people who are delinquent on their fees, and the management company rep says that it is *illegal* to tell the tenant what is about to happen to him. That they can't tell him this without the consent of the landlord. She says she has verified this with a the HOA's lawyer, recently, but she knew it before that. Could this be true? Why don't you call the city and ask them? -- Mortimer Schnerd, RN mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com |
#7
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OT cutting off water for landlord/tenant
"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com wrote in message ... | mm wrote: | This is OT, but you guys seem to know a lot. | | I went to a Home Owners meeting tonight. The HOA plans to disconnect | the water of people who are delinquent on their fees, and the | management company rep says that it is *illegal* to tell the tenant | what is about to happen to him. That they can't tell him this without | the consent of the landlord. She says she has verified this with a the | HOA's lawyer, recently, but she knew it before that. | | Could this be true? | | | Why don't you call the city and ask them? | | | | -- | Mortimer Schnerd, RN | mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com | | most towns give the tenant the right to pay utility bills directly and deduct it from the next months rent, especially if they have children. most towns even send a notice to the tenant before shutting off utilities. giving them the option to pay the balance due. it's just another slum lord story. funny how the people with money..............never pay! I guess that's why they have money? |
#8
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OT cutting off water for landlord/tenant
On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 05:09:47 -0400, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com wrote: mm wrote: This is OT, but you guys seem to know a lot. I went to a Home Owners meeting tonight. The HOA plans to disconnect the water of people who are delinquent on their fees, and the management company rep says that it is *illegal* to tell the tenant what is about to happen to him. That they can't tell him this without the consent of the landlord. She says she has verified this with a the HOA's lawyer, recently, but she knew it before that. Could this be true? Why don't you call the city and ask them? I don't think I could find someone who could answer the question. If they meant it was a violation of a criminal law, I could call the prosecutor I guess, but they probably mean it's a civil wrong, and no one at the city is going to want to answer such a question. A judge might know the answer, but he'll want to hear both sides of the case in a hearing with witnesses. But I don't think he would talk to me at all. His secretary will tell me to consult a lawyer. |
#9
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OT cutting off water for landlord/tenant
mm wrote:
On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 05:09:47 -0400, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN" mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com wrote: mm wrote: This is OT, but you guys seem to know a lot. I went to a Home Owners meeting tonight. The HOA plans to disconnect the water of people who are delinquent on their fees, and the management company rep says that it is *illegal* to tell the tenant what is about to happen to him. That they can't tell him this without the consent of the landlord. She says she has verified this with a the HOA's lawyer, recently, but she knew it before that. Could this be true? Why don't you call the city and ask them? I don't think I could find someone who could answer the question. If they meant it was a violation of a criminal law, I could call the prosecutor I guess, but they probably mean it's a civil wrong, and no one at the city is going to want to answer such a question. A judge might know the answer, but he'll want to hear both sides of the case in a hearing with witnesses. But I don't think he would talk to me at all. His secretary will tell me to consult a lawyer. I think the customary way to learn how to run a HOA or condo assn. is in learning from mistakes! Typical board members are those who want to control every detail to conform to their own idea of what is "right", and go overboard in rules enforcement...generally are poor planners and make issues "personal". I would NEVER approach an owner to ask about overdue fees or assessments, no matter what .. that makes it personal. Your management company can send a letter, certified mail, whenever there is a delinquency or rules violation. The cost can (or should) be added onto the amount due. That matter should be in your bylaws. A HOA is not a club, it is a business. In Fl., condo associations are "corporations not for profit" (usually) and are governed by rules pretty close to those for corporate boards in business. If your units have water meters, why is the HOA collecting the fees? If they don't have meters, why not get them? Then the city can collect and shut off the water if not paid. Too many other things to **** about than to go for years with unpaid bills ) |
#10
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OT cutting off water for landlord/tenant
On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 17:02:48 GMT, Norminn
wrote: mm wrote: Why don't you call the city and ask them? I don't think I could find someone who could answer the question. But I did post to misc.legal.moderated, and I'm reviewing the one answer I got so far. It's moderated so it takes at least two days to et an answer. If they meant it was a violation of a criminal law, I could call the prosecutor I guess, but they probably mean it's a civil wrong, and no one at the city is going to want to answer such a question. A judge might know the answer, but he'll want to hear both sides of the case in a hearing with witnesses. But I don't think he would talk to me at all. His secretary will tell me to consult a lawyer. I think the customary way to learn how to run a HOA or condo assn. is in learning from mistakes! Typical board members are those who want to control every detail to conform to their own idea of what is "right", and go overboard in rules enforcement...generally are poor planners and make issues "personal". We have two like that, at this time counting the management company rep. The reaosn one is not defeated is that she is also willing to do work that really does have to be done, year after year after year. I certainly have other things to do, like read and write to Usenet. I would NEVER approach an owner to ask about overdue fees or assessments, no matter what .. that makes it personal. Your management company can send a letter, certified mail, whenever there is a That's how we do it. delinquency or rules violation. The cost can (or should) be added onto the amount due. That matter should be in your bylaws. A HOA is not a That's how we do it. club, it is a business. In Fl., condo associations are "corporations not for profit" (usually) and are governed by rules pretty close to those for corporate boards in business. There is very little HOA law in Md. Last I looked maybe 8 pages, and that included the annotations (case decisions). The rest of it is standard corporate law.** If your units have water meters, why is the HOA collecting the fees? If They don't. they don't have meters, why not get them? A lot of money to install them after the fact. Digging up, cutting into plumbing. Residents don't want to be without water. Putting in new grass and maybe repairing sidewalks because many valves are under plates in the sidewalk. None of this applies when the houses are under construction. In addition, and probably most important in fact, the agreement 29 years ago was that every unit pays the same. That includes the apartment building, where no one has a yard to water and fewer people on average per unit than the average house. So less water used for everything. Even though I don't water my lawn, and I live alone, I only pay 11.66 a month for water. I gather that is very cheap. If I had a meter, I would pay more, plus all the wasted effort reading about 400 meters of all the units involved. (The water bill is going up this summer, because Baltimore City is going to charge Baltimore County 15 or 20% more for water. It was in the paper.) It's like when there was a draft, the army couldn't force you to have surgery so you wouldn't be 4F anymore. But if you chose to have the surgery and ended up 1A, you might be drafted. A lot of people postponed their surgery until they were over 26. Then the city can collect and shut off the water if not paid. Too many other things to **** about than to go for years with unpaid bills ) I was sleepy today, but this week I hope to check on why placing a lien and foreclosing hasn't collected all t he money owed. It's not because the Board is nice to people. I think they are usually verging on heartless, so I'm getting more and more curious why they never afaik foreclosed. Generally just starting to is enough to get the money. Or telling them about the one house that was foreclosed on. Not even because some people don't know they need to move to someplace cheaper, and aren't willing to sell their house, but because there are thousands of dollars of extra charges when the court does it. **(The HOA once had a lawyer who once gave me an answer based on condo or coop law, but he called an hour later to say he'd made a mistake. No harm done. I had called him on the phone, so he was not in our HOA mode. It's not like he was at one of our meetings and forgot we were an HOA. Next time I call someone, if I ever do, I will remind him that we are an HOA, but this time I had just called to remind him when our big annual meeting was, and meant only to talk to the secretary, but I got him instead and he asked me something and I ended up asking him a legal question. That's was the basis on which the other board member accuse me of "illegally going to their lawyer" This is probably libel, and accusilng someone of a crime, in NYS at leaset if not in Md, iirc entitles one to damages even if he can't show actual damages. But I didn't sue anyone. I didn't even bother to tell him what he had done wrong. I only asked him if he was accusing me of a crime. When I had called the lawyer's office, it's true that I identified myself as a board member, but that was accurate. I didn't say the board had asked me to call. I wanted to know a detail about the proper format for an election proxy (if it had to name the candidates to be voted for if it could be blank and the proxyholder decided who to vote for at the last minute.) I think it is not out of bounds to ask that question of the HOA lawyer, but that isn't why I called him. I called him to remind him to come to the meeting, which he himself had insisted on doing, but it turned out he had the wrong date. I wanted him there to make the election run right, but I only intended to talk to his secretary. |
#11
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OT cutting off water for landlord/tenant
Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
mm wrote: This is OT, but you guys seem to know a lot. I went to a Home Owners meeting tonight. The HOA plans to disconnect the water of people who are delinquent on their fees, and the management company rep says that it is *illegal* to tell the tenant what is about to happen to him. That they can't tell him this without the consent of the landlord. She says she has verified this with a the HOA's lawyer, recently, but she knew it before that. Could this be true? Why don't you call the city and ask them? So leave an anonymous note on the affected tenants' doors. |
#12
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OT cutting off water for landlord/tenant
IANAL. I think it is somewhat questionable to shut off water as a means
of collecting a HOA fee but won't make any other comment on that. However, I don't see how it can be "illegal" to tell the tenant or anyone else anything. -- Make it as simple as possible, but no simpler. Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org |
#13
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OT cutting off water for landlord/tenant
On Apr 27, 5:54�am, (Larry W) wrote:
IANAL. I think it is somewhat questionable to shut off water as a means of collecting a HOA fee but won't make any other comment on that. However, I don't see how it can be "illegal" to tell the tenant or anyone else anything. -- * * *Make it as simple as possible, but no simpler. * * *Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org PERHAPS some members of the board dont like the tenants who are about to lose their water? might be a effort to punish them somehow. I am a loudmouth when someone is doing something to hurt others. I would warn the effected individuals. Look fr practical purposes their water will get turned back on at some point. but for SAFETY SAKE it should never be shut off. A minor fire, a mere nothing could spread and damage not just the unit with no water, but the adjacent ones too. |
#14
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OT cutting off water for landlord/tenant
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#15
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OT cutting off water for landlord/tenant
Turning off the water is a goofy solution. It is taking action against
a renter for actions of the owner. I believe it would be illegal where I live, as rental units are required to have water, sewage and electricity. IMO, it would be better to take owner to small claims, and/or file a lien on his unit(s). If it is a chronic issue, the board could vote for a special assessment to cover legal costs - recoverable, at worst, when he sells the unit. I've put up with pretty awful behavior by board members and owners in our condo, and it is owner's complacency that causes a lot of trouble..they don't want to be bothered to make sure the association is run properly. It is a business! $3,500/year in a HOA of 110 units is small change; if the board votes for penalties (if allowed by law), it would have a better effect that taking action that harms someone other than the owner and likely gets the HOA sued! Have to be careful about handling financial deficiencies or rules violations - in Fl., I believe it is illegal in condos to refer to the owner or violator by name in meetings - supposed to address them only by unit number. You referred to owners who only voiced their opposition after a meeting..typical! It is politics, and a right course of action should be pressed before meetings so meetings don't turn into open warfare, and owners understand that the vote will have a positive effect for them. We have a small association, and at one point three owners could block any action, including votes for needed maintenance. One of them was owner of three units, chronically delinquent in monthly assessment, but owner of $1,000,000 sailboat and second home in Bahamas! A real parasite whose behavior forced other owners to do work themselves if they wanted the place taken care of. |
#16
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OT cutting off water for landlord/tenant
On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 10:02:11 GMT, Norminn
wrote: Turning off the water is a goofy solution. It is taking action against a renter for actions of the owner. Only one of the seven involves a tenant at this time, but they have this crackpot notion that what they do in one situation they have to do in all others. So even if they were otherwise willing, which they're not, they wouldn't believe that they can have a different rule for the rented one from the others. This attitude of theirs shows in a lot of situations. I would guess it is an effort to simplify a complicated world. I believe it would be illegal where I live, as rental units are required to have water, sewage and electricity. I hadn't thought of that. That duty might only pertain to the landlord, but the reasons would be just as valid wrt anyone. I hadn't though of that, but I did urge them to start small, with only a smaller number, so that if they were making a mistake, they wouldn't make it too many times. So that they could refine their methods and do a better job the next time. Mostly it's the president and the comparitively new management company rep. They both have the desire to be in control, and I think to push people around. In most cases, much of the board is like sheep, and in this case they are even more supportive because they want the money. IMO, it would be better to take owner to small claims, and/or file a lien on his unit(s). If it is a chronic issue, the board could vote for a special assessment to cover legal costs - recoverable, at worst, when he sells the unit. We've taken a substantial number to court in the past, and gotten liens. The lawyer will do it for free iirc getting all hs money and ours when the bill is paid. I wasn't at the meetings for a few years, and didn't read the newsletters for that matter (if they said anything) but I'm going to try to find out why this method isn't sufficient. Specifically I'm going to try to find out if there were any houses for which we didn't get our money, and what went wrong in those cases. I've put up with pretty awful behavior by board members and owners in our condo, and it is owner's complacency that causes a lot of trouble..they don't want to be bothered to make sure the association is run properly. It is a business! $3,500/year in a HOA of 110 units is small change; if the board votes for penalties (if allowed by law), it I don't think much in the way of penalties are allowed by laws. The quarterly bill per house is about 115 dollars, of which 80 dollars goes to the HOA and 35 goes to the water company. A few months ago I mentioned the strange circumstances that makes our water bill so low. The 80 dollars should be raised, but it's hard to get enough votes to do that. STill, it's almost enough because these are not condos and the homeowner is responsible for his entire house and his yard. The HOA is only repsonisible for repairing the sidewalkes that don't go to the doors of the house and repairing the road and parking lot occasionally, and lawnmowing and bushes and flowers of the commmon areas which are pretty small. would have a better effect that taking action that harms someone other than the owner and likely gets the HOA sued! The lawyer says we're safe, but I forgot to mention that I don't trust the lawyer's competence. It's the same lawyer who says we can't tell the tenant who also says we can turn off the water. Have to be careful about handling financial deficiencies or rules violations - in Fl., I believe it is illegal in condos to refer to the owner or violator by name in meetings - supposed to address them only by unit number. That's the kind of rule they're referring to. I gues that sort of answers, or at least relates to, Larry's and my question. Are you allowed to refer to them by name outside of meetings? Like in the chit chat afterwards. I have a friend who visits his mother who lives in a condo in Fl. He visits for 3 or 4 months every winter. I'll ask him how florida works. You referred to owners who only voiced their opposition after a meeting..typical! It is politics, and a right course of action should be pressed before meetings so meetings don't turn into open warfare, and owners understand that the vote will have a positive effect for them. It was only tonight that I found out that the tenant wasn't going to be notified. That one guy who raised the issue last fall did so before I had even thought of it. I heard about it for the first time at that same meeting last fall. I told him what a good idea he had. Yet tonight, he was the one who made the motion to cut off the water, saying nothing about sending a notice to the tenant. The woman who didn't say anthying until after the meeting was under the impression that no landlords were delinquent, and it's true that most ll's pay on time and there is only one in this group. I've gone days without water and it barely bothers me at all, so it's surprising in a way that I'm so concerned about this family. I think what really bothers me is to again see how callous, self-centered, and compassionless are so many of my neighbors. And this makes me think that maybe I have overestimated the whole country and the whole world. And that is really depressing. Screwing over your neighbor is only one step from screwing over your neighbor when you are looking at him, and that's only one step from screwing over a friend, which is only one step from screwing over a family member. (Sometimes it's even worse.) And I think a bunch of them, maybe even the two worst, the pres and the property management rep make a moderate display at times of being religious and, one would think that meant, attempting to be compassionate. They don't answer the phone "God bless you" or anything quite so overt, and I've never been to the rep's home, but I think I've seen religious things of some sort on the walls or refrigerator of the others. We have a small association, and at one point three owners could block any action, including votes for needed maintenance. One of them was owner of three units, chronically delinquent in monthly assessment, but owner of $1,000,000 sailboat and second home in Bahamas! A real parasite whose behavior forced other owners to do work themselves if they wanted the place taken care of. Wow. I haven't met any of these deadbeats or any of the ones from previous years, afaik. This just in: Dean of Admissions of MIT had often cautioned people not to pad their resume. After 30 years, she has resigned for having padded hers. Claimed degrees she didn't have. May not have even graduated college anywhere. |
#17
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OT cutting off water for landlord/tenant
In article et,
Norminn wrote: Turning off the water is a goofy solution. It is taking action against a renter for actions of the owner. I believe it would be illegal where I live, as rental units are required to have water, sewage and electricity. IMO, it would be better to take owner to small claims, and/or file a lien on his unit(s). If it is a chronic issue, the board could vote for a special assessment to cover legal costs - recoverable, at worst, when he sells the unit. While I agree with your final para, I don't think the HOA has a dog in the illegal not to have utilities hunt. That is the responsibility of the landlord doing the renting not some third party. WHen utilities are cut, then the landlord would be the one responsible. As an aside, it might be interesting to see if there are any criminal penalties for the landlord who allows utilities to be cut because of non-payment. If so, one more letter to the landlord saying he has so much time to pay up and if he misses a payment the water will be cut and he will be ratted out to whoever needs to know. I would also slap a lien IMMEDIATELY so that he can't just sell and sneak off. |
#18
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OT cutting off water for landlord/tenant
On Apr 27, 5:02 am, Norminn wrote:
.... ... in Fl., I believe it is illegal in condos to refer to the owner or violator by name in meetings - supposed to address them only by unit number. .... So you then walk down the row and read the name off the mailbox??? I can see such laws being passed, but they make little or no sense. |
#19
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OT cutting off water for landlord/tenant
"mm" wrote in message ... This is OT, but you guys seem to know a lot. I went to a Home Owners meeting tonight. The HOA plans to disconnect the water of people who are delinquent on their fees, and the management company rep says that it is *illegal* to tell the tenant what is about to happen to him. That they can't tell him this without the consent of the landlord. She says she has verified this with a the HOA's lawyer, recently, but she knew it before that. Could this be true? Our HOA doesn't have many responsibilities, and the fees are only about 110 dollars a quarter. Despite that, owners of 7 of the 110 townhouses are 500 dollars or more behind, and at 550 a year, they are from 1 to 4 years delinquent. Several of the houses are owned by someone, usually someone who used to live here, and rented to someone else. Most landlords pay their fees on time, but one of the 7 who owes 500 dollars is a landlord. The HOA has checked with a lawyer and since the HOA pays the water bill for everyone, it is apparently legal for the HOA to turn off the water to someone who owes money. And they voted to do that tonight (They voted to do that last October also, but didn't.) BUT HERE IS THE KICKER. The management company rep says that it is *illegal* to tell the tenant what is about to happen to him. That they can't tell him this without the consent of the landlord. She says she has verified this with a rental type lawyer, the HOA's lawyer, recently, but she knew it before that. Have you ever heard of this? I don't believe it. This is Baltimore County, Md., but I'd be interested in any state's laws. I'm also annoyed because of the 12 or so people at the meeting, only 4 of us had any objection to this. Of the 4, one didn't say anything until privately after the meeting, one said something a year ago but doesn't seem to care anymore, and the other guy and I voted against the water turnoff although there are other reasons he might have voted against it. There may be some other quiet ones, but some were vocal and imo they and anyone who agreed with them are very cold-blooded wrt the tenant. Background, not necessary for my question: In sort-of defense of the Board, they have written to the owners over and over, offerred a payment plan and arranged a payment plan with a couple others who owed a lot of money, made appointments with some of the owners on the current list only to have the owners not even show up for the appointments, even though they agreed to them. The owners are terrible, I agree. But this one tenant, and other perhaps in the future, has paid everything he owes afawk and he's the one who's going to lose his water. If the landlord doesn't pay before the cutoff date, I'd bet it will take at least 4 days before the tenant figures out** what the problem is and gets his landlord to budge, or the tenant gives up and pays the bill himself. If they disconnect him on a Thursday or Friday, he'll be without water on the weekend too. One could of course pay our treasurer, who lives in the n'hood, but they're so cold-blooded, I'll bet they won't allow that or will take the money but not turn the water on until Monday when a plumber can come. OTOH, if they told the tenant a month in advance, he would have a better chance of convincing the ll to pay, or maybe even withhold some of his rent and make his own payment plan with the HOA. (Risky in Md. for anyonne. Not risky in NYC for someone who knows a bit.) **For one thing, he'll get home at 5:30, say Monday, to find he has no water and he won't be able to reach the ll until the next day. When they finally get a check, it will take them another day to send someone out (even though we could probably buy a wrench and do it ourselves. (The valve cases are locked with bolts with 5-sided heads, but they must sell those somewhere.) I would be VERY cautious doing this. Here is MA it is illeagal for water or electricity to be shut off if there are children, elderly, terminal or special needs people in the homes or properties. If any of these apply to any of the tennants the HOA could be in for a whole world of hurt. Was it a written vote? If not, I would demand a written vote just to simply cover your own bacon. I highly doubt that the HOA would have the authority to turn off a tennants service regardless what the lawyer says. Their purpose is to "make the community a better place" not act as a jail keeper. Why not contact the local water company, building department etc and ask them? Once they flip the valve without the proper due-dilagance ramifications could be huge. |
#20
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OT cutting off water for landlord/tenant
On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 08:05:59 -0400, "Brian V"
wrote: I would be VERY cautious doing this. Here is MA it is illeagal for water or electricity to be shut off if there are children, elderly, terminal or special needs people in the homes or properties. If any of these apply to I should have asked about this last night. Certainly no assurances were made that no one was in this situation. Kurt, they are sending one more letter, certified and regular, to the 7 and maybe even to people who only owe as little 115 or 230 for more than 3 months. (and they must be still applying the liens or you're right, people who stand to get away without paying a thousand dollars or two would just do without water for a couple weeks until they can sell the house and skip.) (They don't want to be a paper tiger anymore, so I said they should send different letters to people who owe a lot and those who owe a little, because surely they won't disconnect people who only owe 115 dollars, but maybe that's what they plan to do.) Even when it's not explicitly illegal, I think people and an HOA can be liable. One of the things I've found surprising about tort law is that it's not quite covered by the Constitution's exclusion of ex post facto laws (which is [mostly or entrirely] about criminal law anyhow). That is, there is a law that people, are responsible for their negligence, but courts decide after the fact what is negligence and what isn't. Because there is an endless number of ways to be negligent and no one could list them all in advance. Even though normal people can disagree about what is negligence and what isn't, a respondent is stuck with what the jury or judge decides. any of the tennants the HOA could be in for a whole world of hurt. Was it a written vote? If not, I would demand a written vote just to simply cover your own bacon. That's a good idea. It wasn't a hand vote, but the secretary is very diligent about writing down who voted nay. She won't even eat during the meetings because she'll miss something. I'm positive she has the count, and pretty positive she has my name, but I will call her and make sure my no vote, and the other guy's are specified. I highly doubt that the HOA would have the authority to turn off a tennants service regardless what the lawyer says. Their purpose is to "make the community a better place" not act as a jail keeper. Why not contact the local water company, building department etc and ask them? Once they flip I think that's a good idea in that it would be a lot easier to get an answer than from the water company than a judge. Because, they'd probably disagree with me but i think the water company must have fewer issues and fewer legal issues. Well, I called the water company, and even though I started with the Baltimore County number, I got referred to another number and midway in the conversation I found out she was giving me Baltimore City rules and didn't know about Baltimore County (which doesn't overlap the city at all.) so she gave me to her supervisor, who said they could not disconnect an individual house. They only disconnect where there is a meter, and we all share one meter. Even though there are individual valves. So she didn't know anything really about this. She did say that multiple homes sharing one meter is not unusual at all, and sometimes they arrange to bill based on the number of people living in each house. I would save a little if they did that, but then we would have to have a PPHMC, a Person Per House Monitoring Commission, and that would be bad. the valve without the proper due-dilagance ramifications could be huge. The board has XX and YY insurance (Negligence and Malfeasance? No, something that sounds nicer than that), which they called upon 20 years ago when I sued the HOA. I was pro se against a real lawyer but did pretty well anyhow. But in an extreme situation, the damages might exceed their insurance. |
#21
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OT cutting off water for landlord/tenant
In article ,
mm wrote: people who only owe as little 115 or 230 for more than 3 months. (and they must be still applying the liens or you're right, people who stand to get away without paying a thousand dollars or two would just do without water for a couple weeks until they can sell the house and skip.) Isn't it going to be hard to sell a house without water? A sensible buyer is going to want to try all the sinks, flush all the toilets, turn on the shower, run a cycle of the dishwasher and the washing machine, etc. And if the seller explains that the water was turned off due to lack of payment, the buyer is going to wonder (1) if there is any lien on the property due to this, and (2) if the seller has also neglected other payments, like taxes. -- --Tim Smith |
#22
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OT cutting off water for landlord/tenant
My home owner association has most of its rights and duties carefully described in a document that I received (and signed for) when I bought my unit. The other rights and duties are in the common and statutory law of my state. So the first thing to do at any home owner meeting that discusses unpaid dues and remedies is to drag out all the covenants and copies of statutory law and case law and see where you fit in the scheme of things. If you don't do this, then someone else should be running the meetings. Otherwise, one day, you will all get hit very heavy in the pocket book. On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 01:50:36 -0400, mm wrote: This is OT, but you guys seem to know a lot. I went to a Home Owners meeting tonight. The HOA plans to disconnect the water of people who are delinquent on their fees, and the management company rep says that it is *illegal* to tell the tenant what is about to happen to him. That they can't tell him this without the consent of the landlord. She says she has verified this with a the HOA's lawyer, recently, but she knew it before that. Could this be true? snip |
#23
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OT cutting off water for landlord/tenant
"mm" wrote in message ... This is OT, but you guys seem to know a lot. I went to a Home Owners meeting tonight. The HOA plans to disconnect the water of people who are delinquent on their fees, and the management company rep says that it is *illegal* to tell the tenant what is about to happen to him. That they can't tell him this without the consent of the landlord. She says she has verified this with a the HOA's lawyer, recently, but she knew it before that. Could this be true? Our HOA doesn't have many responsibilities, and the fees are only about 110 dollars a quarter. Shutting off the water to a family with a hardship, disabled person, medical needs, etc, could lead to some nasty legal implications. Just put a lien on the property and 18% interest. That is often all that is needed. |
#24
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OT cutting off water for landlord/tenant
110 dollars a quarter.
Shutting off the water to a family with a hardship, disabled person, medical needs, etc, could lead to some nasty legal implications. Just put a lien on the property and 18% interest. That is often all that is needed. Geez, there ya go. In Mass, it is illegal to shut off water to a tenant AFAIK. Shutting off water is a pretty bad idea, if a lien is an available remedy I would leave the aforementioned note if they insist on shutting off water |
#25
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OT cutting off water for landlord/tenant
On Apr 27, 9:21 am, yourname wrote:
110 dollars a quarter. Shutting off the water to a family with a hardship, disabled person, medical needs, etc, could lead to some nasty legal implications. Just put a lien on the property and 18% interest. That is often all that is needed. Geez, there ya go. In Mass, it is illegal to shut off water to a tenant AFAIK. Shutting off water is a pretty bad idea, if a lien is an available remedy I would leave the aforementioned note if they insist on shutting off water I was president of a condo assoc here in NJ and from discussions I had with our lawyer, I don't believe shutting off utilites is legal here in NJ. To be clear, in our case, the water bill was not paid in common by the association, so it's not exactly the same. However, I did look into this enough that I don't think it would be legal to turn it off even if the bill was being paid by the association for all the units. There are strict laws governing this type of thing in many states. Before I did it, I would get a second opinion from another lawyer, who is very well versed in common interest property issues. Another resource is the Community Association Institute, which hopefully your association is a member of. This is a national organization, with state chapters, that provide lots of helpful info on laws, lobby for new laws, etc. I also have to agree with those that wonder why your lawyer doesn't go after them legally, instead of resorting to what should be a last resort. Most HOA legal documents make it easy to file claims. For example, if they miss their monthly payments, usually you can then accelerate them and demand payment of a full year's assessment and go after that amount. And filing a lien and ultimately foreclosing is an option as well. Again, most HOA agreements also state that the owner is responsible for not only the payment, but legal fees incurred as well. One would think any competent lawyer would prefer that route, as it makes him more money. |
#26
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OT cutting off water for landlord/tenant
On Apr 27, 10:43�am, wrote:
On Apr 27, 9:21 am, yourname wrote: 110 dollars a quarter. Shutting off the water to a family with a hardship, disabled person, medical needs, etc, could lead to some nasty legal implications. *Just put a lien on the property and 18% interest. *That is often all that is needed. Geez, there ya go. In Mass, it is illegal to shut off water to a tenant AFAIK. Shutting off water is a pretty bad idea, if a lien is an available remedy I would leave the aforementioned note if they insist on *shutting off water I was president of a condo assoc here in NJ and from discussions I had with our lawyer, I don't believe shutting off utilites is legal here in NJ. * To be clear, in our case, the water bill was not paid in common by the association, so it's not exactly the same. * However, I did look into this enough that I don't think it would be legal to turn it off even if the bill was being paid by the association for all the units. * *There are strict laws governing this type of thing in many states. * Before I did it, I would get a second opinion from another lawyer, who is very well versed in common interest property issues. Another resource is the Community Association Institute, which hopefully your association is a member of. * *This is a national organization, with state chapters, that provide lots of helpful info on laws, lobby for new laws, etc. I also have to agree with those that wonder why your lawyer doesn't go after them legally, instead of resorting to what should be a last resort. * Most HOA legal documents make it easy to file claims. *For example, if they miss their monthly payments, usually you can then accelerate them and demand payment of a full year's assessment and go after that amount. * And filing a lien and ultimately foreclosing is an option as well. *Again, most HOA agreements also state that the owner is responsible for not only the payment, but legal fees incurred as well. *One would think any competent lawyer would prefer that route, as it makes him more money. at least let the tenant know whats coming, a quick phone call or friendl;y visit. you might also call local government and ask. wonder what the liability is for the lawer, HOA, and voting members if the water is cut off, a minor fire occurs, that spreads thruout the building? the other units insurance companies might have a $$ field day. plus if the tenant losing water goes to the media, do they really want your complex in the news this way? |
#27
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OT cutting off water for landlord/tenant
clipped
I also have to agree with those that wonder why your lawyer doesn't go after them legally, instead of resorting to what should be a last resort. Most HOA legal documents make it easy to file claims. For example, if they miss their monthly payments, usually you can then accelerate them and demand payment of a full year's assessment and go after that amount. And filing a lien and ultimately foreclosing is an option as well. Again, most HOA agreements also state that the owner is responsible for not only the payment, but legal fees incurred as well. One would think any competent lawyer would prefer that route, as it makes him more money. In Fl., HOA's and condo assns are governed by different sets of laws. One clear aspect that I have read about is the "fiduciary duty" of board members and the principle that they can be sued personally for not doing their fiduciary duty. The law may have since changed, but it would be interesting to file small claims against the board members who neglected to collect the unpaid fees ) Fl. HOA's and condo assns. can have fines for late payments or rules violations, but fines for rules violations are generally considered a bad idea. I was told by a cert. assn. manager that a board member cannot vote on a fine against a member of his/her own family. Makes sense. But in the original issue of this thread, it might be legal but certainly not the best choice to implicate the renter in the dispute. By shutting off the water, the board is really punishing the renter for their own negligence. If my assn. was doing that, I would send a letter, cert. mail, to disagree with the decision...it isn't worth the potential difficulty to collect relatively small amounts of money. When other owners see the unpaid fees on their statements, they might want to change how things are run, or even serve on the board. With 110 units in the assn, there should be a couple of owners with some decent business sense. |
#28
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#29
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OT cutting off water for landlord/tenant
On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 16:57:25 -0400, mm
wrote: but then we would have to have a PPHMC, a Person Per House Monitoring Commission, and that would be bad. (Right now each house pays the same.) Four billion people coming to an area near in the next 50 years..... -- Oren "I don't have anything against work. I just figure, why deprive somebody who really loves it." |
#30
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OT cutting off water for landlord/tenant
On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 16:57:25 -0400, mm
wrote: OOps. I'm figuring he lives there since all 3 addresses given look definitely. she lives there definitely residential. She belongs to an HOA of a n'hood I've never heard of, but they are constantly building houses in that area. I'm not going to lie and say we might joing, but maybe she'll give me joining some free information. But I can't call her until I learn more about why we aren't going the lien method all the way to foreclosure. |
#31
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OT cutting off water for landlord/tenant
mm wrote:
I went to a Home Owners meeting tonight. The HOA plans to disconnect the water of people who are delinquent on their fees, and the management company rep says that it is *illegal* to tell the tenant what is about to happen to him. That they can't tell him this without the consent of the landlord. She says she has verified this with a the HOA's lawyer, recently, but she knew it before that. Could this be true? Sure it could. The HOA's relationship is with the property owner, not with the tenant. So the HOA may not have a right to butt in. However, that doesn't preclude any neighbor or other individual (as opposed to the HOA) casually mentioning it to the tenant, or leaving a note on the tenant's door. Dilemma solved in a way that doesn't officially drag the HOA into the mess. Our HOA doesn't have many responsibilities, and the fees are only about 110 dollars a quarter. They'll start climbing for the rest of you dues-paying members as the deadbeats continue to renege on their payments. That's exactly what the HOA is worried about. It's odd that you don't seem to be concerned. Don't you object to having to pay your deadbeat neighbors' shares of the expenses in addition to your own? Despite that, owners of 7 of the 110 townhouses are 500 dollars or more behind, and at 550 a year, they are from 1 to 4 years delinquent. Expect the number to grow as more debt-ridden desperate folks start skipping payments. It's common for cash-strapped homeowners to skip HOA payments while trying to keep up with their mortgage payments, so that may very well be what's happening in this situation. If they are seriously-debt stressed, their financial troubles will create more problems for the HOA as their financial situation deteriorates. Meaning their problems will become yours. If I were you, I'd take the addresses of these townhomes down to the county's property records division and see if Notices of Default have been filed. The rest of you folks in the HOA will have a nasty surprise if/when homes in the community start going into foreclosure. The HOA has checked with a lawyer and since the HOA pays the water bill for everyone, it is apparently legal for the HOA to turn off the water to someone who owes money. And this is wrong because...? (Personally, I think enabling deadbeats is wrong. But that's just me.) And they voted to do that tonight (They voted to do that last October also, but didn't.) Good for them! BUT HERE IS THE KICKER. The management company rep says that it is *illegal* to tell the tenant what is about to happen to him. That they can't tell him this without the consent of the landlord. She says she has verified this with a rental type lawyer, the HOA's lawyer, recently, but she knew it before that. So the HOA itself cannot *officially* notify the tenant. As noted, there's nothing stopping anyone else from unofficially taking matters into his/her own hands - as long as s/he isn't acting on behalf of the HOA. For that matter, there's nothing stopping anyone else from volunteering to pay this deadbeat's bill. If this is such a matter of concern for you, perhaps you should consider assuming the responsbility for this property's HOA fees. One way or another, if the property owner continues to default, you and the other community members are going to have to pay it, anyway. You could be selfless and carry the entire cost yourself. I'm also annoyed because of the 12 or so people at the meeting, only 4 of us had any objection to this. Oh, for pete's sake. If you are so outraged that your HOA is attempting to compel someone to pay their bills, why don't you just pay it for them? Are you nuts? Who do you think gets stuck with the bills when other members of the HOA don't pay? If you are truly a member of this community, you have a vested interest in compelling the other property owners to pay their agreed-upon share of the costs. Unless you're one of the deadbeats, in which case it's obvious why you're irate. Background, not necessary for my question: In sort-of defense of the Board, they have written to the owners over and over, offerred a payment plan and arranged a payment plan with a couple others who owed a lot of money, made appointments with some of the owners on the current list only to have the owners not even show up for the appointments, even though they agreed to them. The owners are terrible, I agree. The property owner has options. They can pay. They can sell their property. The renter has options. If the HOA cuts off the water, the renter can move. The renter can pay the arrears, then pursue a claim against the landlord. But this one tenant, and other perhaps in the future, has paid everything he owes afawk and he's the one who's going to lose his water. If I were the renter, I'd be even more concerned about the risk of losing my deposit, or coming home and finding an eviction notice because the house has been foreclosed upon. Because if the landlord can't bother to pay the HOA fees, he's probably cash-strapped, and has probably spent the deposit, and is probably behind on the mortgage payments. And if the home gets foreclosed on, the bank will probably require the renter to vacate asap. OTOH, if they told the tenant a month in advance, he would have a better chance of convincing the ll to pay, Get real. If the legal threats from the HOA got nowhere, the renter will get nowhere. The landlord will ignore him, too. You wanna be a good neighbor? Warn the tenant to go down to the county and check on the status of the property he's renting. He can find out if his landlord has been paying his property taxes or if he's received a notice of default on his mortgage. If the landlord can't pay a fairly cheap HOA bill, the landlord's (in) trouble. Time for the tenant to find a more trustworthy landlord. Or you can pay the property owner a visit yourself. Again, look up the info at the county. Then you can approach the guy and appeal to his better nature. Let us know how that works out. HellT |
#32
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OT cutting off water for landlord/tenant
Once ther roofs need replaced association fees will skyrocket
I refuse to live in a a HOA area, my home totally my decisions!!! |
#33
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#34
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OT cutting off water for landlord/tenant
Norminn wrote:
wrote: Once ther roofs need replaced association fees will skyrocket I refuse to live in a a HOA area, my home totally my decisions!!! Unless the zoning board disagrees ) We don't have a zoning board in Houston. We do, however, have HOA and Civic Associations. Plus a new gizmo, Tax Improvment Districts. |
#35
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OT cutting off water for landlord/tenant
On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 17:36:43 GMT, Norminn
wrote: wrote: Once ther roofs need replaced association fees will skyrocket I refuse to live in a a HOA area, my home totally my decisions!!! Unless the zoning board disagrees ) Yeah. In Maryland or most of Maryland no new neighborhood can be built in the last 25 years or more without an HOA. The HOA doesn't have to meet or do anything, but it must exist. I suppose if you buy a piece of land and build one or two houses, this doesn't apply. I had a next door neighbor like you, Hallerb, though. They were supposed to get my approval for their new enlarged deck, and so they brought the plans over just after they started unloading the wood to do the job that day. I would have signed it, but I was annoyed so I kept them waiting five minutes, although the construction crew didn't wait. About then I heard the wife walking away grumbling, no one's going to tell me what to do with my own house. The only thing that makes this unusual is that she was a lawyer. |
#36
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OT cutting off water for landlord/tenant
On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 18:01:19 -0400, mm
wrote: Yeah. In Maryland or most of Maryland no new neighborhood can be built in the last 25 years or more without an HOA. The HOA doesn't have to meet or do anything, but it must exist. Developers are establishing the HOA's. Some documents I've read; and they might be current to me now mean an election of officers must take place to fill the post. -- Oren "I don't have anything against work. I just figure, why deprive somebody who really loves it." |
#37
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OT cutting off water for landlord/tenant
I went to a Home Owners meeting tonight. The HOA plans to disconnect
the water of people who are delinquent on their fees, and the management company rep says that it is *illegal* to tell the tenant what is about to happen to him. That they can't tell him this without the consent of the landlord. She says she has verified this with a the HOA's lawyer, recently, but she knew it before that. Could this be true? Asking the HOA's attorney about the HOA is like consulting the fox that's watching the hen house. Go to the Governor's Council on Consumer Affairs in your state, or the agency that regulates HOAs. HOAs recently (thank God) are coming under more control and scrutiny by governments. I do reserve studies for management companies who then pass them off to HOAs. We're the guys who count up how much landscaping, parking lots, lights, pools, sidewalks, curbs, etc, you have, and provide a five year projected budget for the association so they can then set the dues for the next five years on the projections. So, I do know a bit about HOAs. That being said, they vary from state to state. I would check with the Governor's Office before I took the word of the HOA. It doesn't sound right that they can fool with public utilities unless it is causing an emergency situation. What if, say, they cut off water or power, and there was a disabled person in there who would be endangered by such actions? I don't think messing with public utilities, and public utility property (the meters) is as simple a thing as they think it is. See if your state has an ombudsman for HOAs. Many have them now, and they can cut short many a paper trail. Good luck. I wouldn't live in a HOA for any reason! Here in Las Vegas, you get your CC and R's on CLOSING. Nice time to read them and see if you want to live there, eh? Steve |
#38
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OT cutting off water for landlord/tenant
clipped
I wouldn't live in a HOA for any reason! Here in Las Vegas, you get your CC and R's on CLOSING. Nice time to read them and see if you want to live there, eh? Steve That is the only obligation of the HOA because they serve owners. No reason not to ask the owner for a copy if you are considering a purchase. I would never, in a million years, buy into a HOA or condo again. In FL, unit owners in condo's can vote down keeping reserves, but reserve amounts have to be stated (I believe). |
#39
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OT cutting off water for landlord/tenant
BUT HERE IS THE KICKER. The management company rep says that it is *illegal* to tell the tenant what is about to happen to him. That they can't tell him this without the consent of the landlord. She says she has verified this with a rental type lawyer, the HOA's lawyer, recently, but she knew it before that. So the HOA itself cannot *officially* notify the tenant. As noted, there's nothing stopping anyone else from unofficially taking matters into his/her own hands - as long as s/he isn't acting on behalf of the HOA. I seriously doubt that this is true. If you are a utility provider, (which you apparently are, if you can shut off the water and not just ask the water co. to do it), then you can certainly tell the occupants that you're going to do so, just as if it were a normal maintenance notice. When they ask why or for how long, you then say "your landlord has the details, talk to them." |
#40
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OT cutting off water for landlord/tenant
In article ,
Hell Toupee wrote: The HOA has checked with a lawyer and since the HOA pays the water bill for everyone, it is apparently legal for the HOA to turn off the water to someone who owes money. And this is wrong because...? (Personally, I think enabling deadbeats is wrong. But that's just me.) Because they aren't turning off the water to the people who the money. They will be turning off the water to people who rent from the people who owe the money. First, this might open the HOA up to considerable legal trouble, if any of the tenants have children, or are elderly, or are disabled. Second, suddenly turning off the water can make the units uninhabitable, so the tenants might have to go spend time in, say, hotels, until the HOA and the owners work things out. A tenant could quite possibly, with a decent lawyer, force the HOA to pay for that hotel. Basically, in dealing with the owner, the HOA has to take reasonable steps to mitigate damages to innocent third parties (such as the renters). If they do not, they are asking for a legal reaming. The claim that it is not legal for the HOA to warn the tenants is bogus. The only basis it might have is that since the dispute is between the owner and the HOA, there is a privacy issue in telling the tenant that the owner isn't paying the bills. However, think about that--when the water gets shut off, the tenant is going to find out that the owner hasn't been paying! The HOA doesn't have to tell the tenant that the owner is not paying his HOA dues. All they have to do is tell the tenant that the water bill has not been paid, and that water service will stop in N days. The tenant can then tell the owner to pay the bill. If the owner doesn't, the tenant can pay it, and withhold that amount from the rent. (After checking the exact details of the law for this in his state, of course!). Net result: HOA gets payment for the water bill, the tenant keeps water, and the HOA isn't opening itself up to legal action from the tenant. Since the HOA dues appear to cover more than water, there will still be some owed by the owner. The HOA can put a lien on the place for that. -- --Tim Smith |
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