HI, I just built an 8x12 shed over my well. The well had an existing A frame
cover over it. It is 5' x 4' x5'2" deep. Has a jet pump wired straight from
main panel at electric pole, 3 wires directly wired to pressure switch. 220 ,
I think.

Here's the question, is there any way to use the exisisting wiring to supply
110 power to shed? All I'm looking at is a couple of lights, a couple of
plugs for minor tool usage.

In article 70e82cfb11180@uwe, "Afubar" u33477@uwe wrote:
HI, I just built an 8x12 shed over my well. The well had an existing A frame
cover over it. It is 5' x 4' x5'2" deep. Has a jet pump wired straight from
main panel at electric pole, 3 wires directly wired to pressure switch. 220 ,
I think.

Here's the question, is there any way to use the exisisting wiring to supply
110 power to shed? All I'm looking at is a couple of lights, a couple of
plugs for minor tool usage.

With a transformer. Otherwise, you need four wires: two hots and ground (which
you have already), and neutral (which you don't).

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
.. .
In article 70e82cfb11180@uwe, "Afubar" u33477@uwe wrote:
HI, I just built an 8x12 shed over my well. The well had an existing A
frame
cover over it. It is 5' x 4' x5'2" deep. Has a jet pump wired straight
from
main panel at electric pole, 3 wires directly wired to pressure switch.
220 ,
I think.

Here's the question, is there any way to use the exisisting wiring to
supply
110 power to shed? All I'm looking at is a couple of lights, a couple of
plugs for minor tool usage.

With a transformer. Otherwise, you need four wires: two hots and ground
(which
you have already), and neutral (which you don't).

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Isn't a stove 220? and it gets its 120 from one of the hot legs and the
neutral.

As Doug said, he doesn't have a neutral, just two hot legs and a ground




"Gary" wrote in message
news:aeBVh.93696$6m4.67862@pd7urf1no...

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
.. .
In article 70e82cfb11180@uwe, "Afubar" u33477@uwe wrote:
HI, I just built an 8x12 shed over my well. The well had an existing A
frame
cover over it. It is 5' x 4' x5'2" deep. Has a jet pump wired straight
from
main panel at electric pole, 3 wires directly wired to pressure switch.
220 ,
I think.

Here's the question, is there any way to use the exisisting wiring to
supply
110 power to shed? All I'm looking at is a couple of lights, a couple of
plugs for minor tool usage.

With a transformer. Otherwise, you need four wires: two hots and ground
(which
you have already), and neutral (which you don't).

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Isn't a stove 220? and it gets its 120 from one of the hot legs and the
neutral.

In article aeBVh.93696$6m4.67862@pd7urf1no, "Gary" wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. ..
In article 70e82cfb11180@uwe, "Afubar" u33477@uwe wrote:
HI, I just built an 8x12 shed over my well. The well had an existing A frame
cover over it. It is 5' x 4' x5'2" deep. Has a jet pump wired straight from
main panel at electric pole, 3 wires directly wired to pressure switch. 220 ,
I think.

Here's the question, is there any way to use the exisisting wiring to supply
110 power to shed? All I'm looking at is a couple of lights, a couple of
plugs for minor tool usage.

With a transformer. Otherwise, you need four wires: two hots and ground (which
you have already), and neutral (which you don't).

Isn't a stove 220? and it gets its 120 from one of the hot legs and the
neutral.

Yes, of course -- but, as noted, he doesn't *have* a neutral. He has two hots
and a ground.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Good Morning,

Can I run just a neutral? Please forgive my ignorance in this area. I've
only ever wired (with existing wires) ceiling fans, moved outlets and outside
lights.

Doug Miller wrote:
HI, I just built an 8x12 shed over my well. The well had an existing A frame
cover over it. It is 5' x 4' x5'2" deep. Has a jet pump wired straight from
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
Isn't a stove 220? and it gets its 120 from one of the hot legs and the
neutral.

Yes, of course -- but, as noted, he doesn't *have* a neutral. He has two hots
and a ground.


--
Message posted via HomeKB.com
http://www.homekb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/repair/200704/1

"Afubar" u33477@uwe wrote in message news:70e82cfb11180@uwe...
HI, I just built an 8x12 shed over my well. The well had an existing A
frame
cover over it. It is 5' x 4' x5'2" deep. Has a jet pump wired straight
from
main panel at electric pole, 3 wires directly wired to pressure switch.
220 ,
I think.

Here's the question, is there any way to use the exisisting wiring to
supply
110 power to shed? All I'm looking at is a couple of lights, a couple of
plugs for minor tool usage.

By "3 wires" you mean two hots and a ground? Then no, you can't do it
legally.
Running a neutral wire would, if nothing perverse ever happens, be safe; but
since code watches out for perverse happenings, it wouldn't be legal.

You might want to check the voltage to be sure. My pump is 120v. Shouldn't
be; the voltage drop is murder, but it is.

You could wire up 240v lights, but that wouldn't help you with the tool
usage.

And before you do anything; make sure you have adequate capacity to add
lights. If you are marginal now, the pump won't like sharing.

Thanks, I'm positive that the pump is 220. Here's the story, the orignal
structure on the property burned to the ground 5 years ago. At the time, the
well was wired into the breaker box in the house. When the house went, all
power to the well went, no water to fight the fire. So when I had the
doublewide set up, I had a friend run the electric straight from the box on
the pole to the well. The breaker box has a double pull dedicated to that
wire alone. I know the pump at one time was set up for 120 but was switched
over when contruction was final. Like an idiot, I let a friend run the wire,
thinking he knew what he was doing, I was wrong. So what I now have is a
cable with 3 wires buried under the ground to the well, what I want is to be
able to put a sub-panel into the shed above the well for lights and outlets.
How can I best accomplish this without burying more wire.

Toller wrote:
HI, I just built an 8x12 shed over my well. The well had an existing A
frame
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
110 power to shed? All I'm looking at is a couple of lights, a couple of
plugs for minor tool usage.

By "3 wires" you mean two hots and a ground? Then no, you can't do it
legally.
Running a neutral wire would, if nothing perverse ever happens, be safe; but
since code watches out for perverse happenings, it wouldn't be legal.

You might want to check the voltage to be sure. My pump is 120v. Shouldn't
be; the voltage drop is murder, but it is.

You could wire up 240v lights, but that wouldn't help you with the tool
usage.

And before you do anything; make sure you have adequate capacity to add
lights. If you are marginal now, the pump won't like sharing.

--
Message posted via http://www.homekb.com

BTW, I'm not real worried about legally, I'm out in the country and didn't
need a permit since the structure is under 200sq ft.

Afubar wrote:
Thanks, I'm positive that the pump is 220. Here's the story, the orignal
structure on the property burned to the ground 5 years ago. At the time, the
well was wired into the breaker box in the house. When the house went, all
power to the well went, no water to fight the fire. So when I had the
doublewide set up, I had a friend run the electric straight from the box on
the pole to the well. The breaker box has a double pull dedicated to that
wire alone. I know the pump at one time was set up for 120 but was switched
over when contruction was final. Like an idiot, I let a friend run the wire,
thinking he knew what he was doing, I was wrong. So what I now have is a
cable with 3 wires buried under the ground to the well, what I want is to be
able to put a sub-panel into the shed above the well for lights and outlets.
How can I best accomplish this without burying more wire.

HI, I just built an 8x12 shed over my well. The well had an existing A
frame
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
And before you do anything; make sure you have adequate capacity to add
lights. If you are marginal now, the pump won't like sharing.

--
Message posted via HomeKB.com
http://www.homekb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/repair/200704/1

In article 70f22496fcfc6@uwe, "Afubar via HomeKB.com" u33477@uwe wrote:
Thanks, I'm positive that the pump is 220. Here's the story, the orignal
structure on the property burned to the ground 5 years ago. At the time, the
well was wired into the breaker box in the house. When the house went, all
power to the well went, no water to fight the fire. So when I had the
doublewide set up, I had a friend run the electric straight from the box on
the pole to the well. The breaker box has a double pull dedicated to that
wire alone. I know the pump at one time was set up for 120 but was switched
over when contruction was final. Like an idiot, I let a friend run the wire,
thinking he knew what he was doing, I was wrong.

He did know what he was doing. You had him run a 240V line, and that's what he
did. If you wanted 120V too, you needed to tell him that.

So what I now have is a
cable with 3 wires buried under the ground to the well, what I want is to be
able to put a sub-panel into the shed above the well for lights and outlets.
How can I best accomplish this without burying more wire.

You can't. You need a fourth wire, not just for code compliance, but for
safety as well.

Toller wrote:
HI, I just built an 8x12 shed over my well. The well had an existing A
frame
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
110 power to shed? All I'm looking at is a couple of lights, a couple of
plugs for minor tool usage.

By "3 wires" you mean two hots and a ground? Then no, you can't do it
legally.
Running a neutral wire would, if nothing perverse ever happens, be safe; but
since code watches out for perverse happenings, it wouldn't be legal.

You might want to check the voltage to be sure. My pump is 120v. Shouldn't
be; the voltage drop is murder, but it is.

You could wire up 240v lights, but that wouldn't help you with the tool
usage.

And before you do anything; make sure you have adequate capacity to add
lights. If you are marginal now, the pump won't like sharing.


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Doug Miller wrote:
In article 70f22496fcfc6@uwe, "Afubar via HomeKB.com" u33477@uwe wrote:

So what I now have is a
cable with 3 wires buried under the ground to the well, what I want is to be
able to put a sub-panel into the shed above the well for lights and outlets.
How can I best accomplish this without burying more wire.

You can't. You need a fourth wire, not just for code compliance, but for
safety as well.

Could the existing ground wire be converted to a neutral and a new
ground rod be sunk at the pump shed?

Chris

In article , Chris Friesen wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article 70f22496fcfc6@uwe, "Afubar via HomeKB.com" u33477@uwe wrote:

So what I now have is a
cable with 3 wires buried under the ground to the well, what I want is to be
able to put a sub-panel into the shed above the well for lights and outlets.
How can I best accomplish this without burying more wire.

You can't. You need a fourth wire, not just for code compliance, but for
safety as well.

Could the existing ground wire be converted to a neutral and a new
ground rod be sunk at the pump shed?

No.

Multiple code and safety violations:
- The existing ground conductor is almost certainly uninsulated and therefore
unsuitable for use as a neutral.
- The ground conductor at the shed would not be tied to the service entrance
ground and could therefore be at a different potential. Google on "ground
loop" for information regarding the dangers.
- This cannot be alleviated by running a separate conductor, either, as the
Code requires that all circuit conductors be contained within the same cable
or raceway.

The only safe and Code-compliant option I can see for the OP is to convert the
circuit back to 120V to provide neutral and ground for the lights and outlets
he wants, and either use a step-up transformer to provide 240V for the pump,
or convert the pump back to 120V as he says it was originally.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Doug Miller wrote:

Multiple code and safety violations:
- The existing ground conductor is almost certainly uninsulated and therefore
unsuitable for use as a neutral.

Valid point.

- The ground conductor at the shed would not be tied to the service entrance
ground and could therefore be at a different potential. Google on "ground
loop" for information regarding the dangers.

Around here (Saskatchewan) separate buildings are allowed to have their
own ground rods and a ground line is not required to be brought with the
feeders (although it is allowed to omit the ground rod and bring ground
in with the feeder lines, as long as the building doesn't house livestock).

Looking at the online 2005 NEC, 250.32 B(2) seems to discuss this case,
in that it describes what to do with the "grounded conductor" when a
"grounding conductor" is not brought along with the supply. Am I
missing something here?

Chris

Thanks, I'm positive that the pump is 220. Here's the story, the orignal
structure on the property burned to the ground 5 years ago. At the time, the
well was wired into the breaker box in the house. When the house went, all
power to the well went, no water to fight the fire. So when I had the
doublewide set up, I had a friend run the electric straight from the box on
the pole to the well. The breaker box has a double pull dedicated to that
wire alone. I know the pump at one time was set up for 120 but was switched
over when contruction was final. Like an idiot, I let a friend run the wire,
thinking he knew what he was doing, I was wrong. So what I now have is a
cable with 3 wires buried under the ground to the well, what I want is to be
able to put a sub-panel into the shed above the well for lights and outlets.
How can I best accomplish this without burying more wire.


He did know what he was doing. You just failed to specify that you
wanted additional capacity for expansion. Before you start messing
around with trying to get different voltages and a nuetral out of your
current set up, how much total power can you pull over the existing
wire? Even if you had four wires, the hot leads are probably sized
for the pump, which would leave you no excess capacity anyway.

You should break out the old shovel, and put in a new feeder line
to a sub-panel in the shed, and re-route the feed to the well
pump through that.

Failing that, mount some solar panels on the shed, and or
feed a UPS through a transformer.


Note that many wells can't deliver water fast enough
for fire-fighting purposes anyway.
Systems that deliver 7GMP at a mere 40 PSI with 50Gallon
pressure tanks aren't uncommon.

You really need a cistern
with at least 500 gallon capacity, and a pump that can
deliver 30 GPM at at least 75 PSI.

A better system would be 3-5,000 gallon reservoir,
and 50GPM at 100+ PSI.

Hang on, before you guys get all upset, from what I can tell, what he buried
was romex. Nothing fancy or special. And it's not the first time this guy
has acted like he knew what he was doing, I've had him mess up an older
motorhome I was remodeling as well, I wound up re doing that, not to mention
a few other things. I'm not blaming him, I just should have known better and
tried to do it myself. And for the books, I'm a 53 year old female. I often
don't know the correct name for things, but I'm not afraid to try. I've
changed the alternator in my car, it involved lowering the cardle and pulling
a tie rod end, I've built a deck that is 10sf less than my house, remodeled a
bath, installing a large garden tub, and last but not least, I put in a
french door from my bedroom out onto the deck. So, Please, I'm willing to
learn, teach me.

Thanks
Kaye

Chris Friesen wrote:
Multiple code and safety violations:
- The existing ground conductor is almost certainly uninsulated and therefore
unsuitable for use as a neutral.

Valid point.

- The ground conductor at the shed would not be tied to the service entrance
ground and could therefore be at a different potential. Google on "ground
loop" for information regarding the dangers.

Around here (Saskatchewan) separate buildings are allowed to have their
own ground rods and a ground line is not required to be brought with the
feeders (although it is allowed to omit the ground rod and bring ground
in with the feeder lines, as long as the building doesn't house livestock).

Looking at the online 2005 NEC, 250.32 B(2) seems to discuss this case,
in that it describes what to do with the "grounded conductor" when a
"grounding conductor" is not brought along with the supply. Am I
missing something here?

Chris

--
Message posted via HomeKB.com
http://www.homekb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/repair/200704/1

"Afubar via HomeKB.com" u33477@uwe wrote in message
news:70f2287aaf0ea@uwe...
BTW, I'm not real worried about legally, I'm out in the country and didn't
need a permit since the structure is under 200sq ft.

Okay.
Personally I wouldn't do this, but until the 20 years ago 240v applicance
were allowed to put their unbalanced load from 120v uses back over the
uninsulated neutral. In fact, the top element on my lower oven puts 10a
back over the neutral. That is probably more than you would get from a few
lights.

Is it safe? I have never heard of anyone getting hurt on the millions of
such installations like that out there; but there is the potential for a
problem. Probably safer than driving to the market, but since it is
illegal... It is one thing to leave my 24 year old wiring in place; it is
quite another to install another one.

I am posting this mainly to get Dougie upset.

In article , "Toller" wrote:

"Afubar via HomeKB.com" u33477@uwe wrote in message
news:70f2287aaf0ea@uwe...
BTW, I'm not real worried about legally, I'm out in the country and didn't
need a permit since the structure is under 200sq ft.

Okay.
Personally I wouldn't do this, but until the 20 years ago 240v applicance
were allowed to put their unbalanced load from 120v uses back over the
uninsulated neutral. In fact, the top element on my lower oven puts 10a
back over the neutral. That is probably more than you would get from a few
lights.

Is it safe? I have never heard of anyone getting hurt on the millions of
such installations like that out there; but there is the potential for a
problem. Probably safer than driving to the market, but since it is
illegal... It is one thing to leave my 24 year old wiring in place; it is
quite another to install another one.

I am posting this mainly to get Dougie upset.

Why don't you just crawl back under your bridge, troll? By this time, anybody
who's been paying attention in this ng knows better than to take electrical
advice from you.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article 70f322fd8e6a0@uwe, "Afubar via HomeKB.com" u33477@uwe wrote:
Hang on, before you guys get all upset, from what I can tell, what he buried
was romex.

If it was romex, then you really should pull it out and have it redone
properly. Romex is neither permitted, nor safe, for underground use. You need
Type UF (Underground Feeder) cable for this application.

[snip]
So, Please, I'm willing to learn, teach me.

OK, well -- you need a 4-wire UF cable, sized to the total load, and an
appropriate double-pole circuit breaker. Or bury a conduit, and pull four THHN
or THWN wires of the appropriate size.

One way or another, you need four wires.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

So, Would I be better off converting the pump back to 110. Well is only used
for house use. Single occupant. Have 7.5 hp pump for irrigating pasture and
yard. It's located elsewhere. And how do I figure load?

thanks
Kaye

Doug Miller wrote:
Hang on, before you guys get all upset, from what I can tell, what he buried
was romex.

If it was romex, then you really should pull it out and have it redone
properly. Romex is neither permitted, nor safe, for underground use. You need
Type UF (Underground Feeder) cable for this application.

[snip]
So, Please, I'm willing to learn, teach me.

OK, well -- you need a 4-wire UF cable, sized to the total load, and an
appropriate double-pole circuit breaker. Or bury a conduit, and pull four THHN
or THWN wires of the appropriate size.

One way or another, you need four wires.


--
Kaye

Message posted via HomeKB.com
http://www.homekb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/repair/200704/1

"Afubar via HomeKB.com" u33477@uwe wrote in message
news:70f322fd8e6a0@uwe...
Hang on, before you guys get all upset, from what I can tell, what he
buried
was romex. Nothing fancy or special. And it's not the first time this
guy
has acted like he knew what he was doing, I've had him mess up an older
motorhome I was remodeling as well, I wound up re doing that, not to
mention
a few other things. I'm not blaming him, I just should have known better
and
tried to do it myself. And for the books, I'm a 53 year old female. I
often
don't know the correct name for things, but I'm not afraid to try. I've
changed the alternator in my car, it involved lowering the cardle and
pulling
a tie rod end, I've built a deck that is 10sf less than my house,
remodeled a
bath, installing a large garden tub, and last but not least, I put in a
french door from my bedroom out onto the deck. So, Please, I'm willing to
learn, teach me.

Thanks
Kaye


Okay Kaye, we need to know exactly what you're dealing with. You mentioned
Romex buried underground. If it really is Romex (NM) and not UF then you
are going to need to change it anyway. Romex is not rated for underground
use and sooner or later moisture will get inside the conductors and they
will just arc in the ground until the connection is broken.

If it is actually UF you have that is good. It is approved for direct
burial and hopefully it is at least 18 inches underground. If it is UF we
need to know what size is the wire. Is it #14, 12, 10? How many insulated
conductors are there? One white, one black, one red? Hopefully there is a
bare or green grounding conductor also. We also need to know the horsepower
of the pump and the voltage it is currently wired for. We also need to know
the approximate length of this wire from the source to the pump. We also
need to know what is at the source for this circuit. Is it at your main
panel where the meter is located? Is it on a two pole circuit breaker?
What size breaker? Pictures would be very helpful.

With good information perhaps we can advise you of a possible solution that
will be safe.

Right now based on what you have already told us I'm thinking that the whole
circuit needs to be trashed. I would suggest installing a 1" or 1 1/4" PVC
underground conduit and pull in a 40 or 50 amp circuit with four conductors.
Install a subpanel in the pumphouse and feed your pump and everything else
from that.



Chris Friesen wrote:
Multiple code and safety violations:
- The existing ground conductor is almost certainly uninsulated and
therefore
unsuitable for use as a neutral.

Valid point.

- The ground conductor at the shed would not be tied to the service
entrance
ground and could therefore be at a different potential. Google on
"ground
loop" for information regarding the dangers.

Around here (Saskatchewan) separate buildings are allowed to have their
own ground rods and a ground line is not required to be brought with the
feeders (although it is allowed to omit the ground rod and bring ground
in with the feeder lines, as long as the building doesn't house
livestock).

Looking at the online 2005 NEC, 250.32 B(2) seems to discuss this case,
in that it describes what to do with the "grounded conductor" when a
"grounding conductor" is not brought along with the supply. Am I
missing something here?

Chris

--
Message posted via HomeKB.com
http://www.homekb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/repair/200704/1

Thanks John, I will get down in the well tommorrow and try to answer all
these questions. Will also take pictures. I wnat to do this right, but the
easiest way possible.

Many Thanks for your patience.
Kaye

John Grabowski wrote:
Hang on, before you guys get all upset, from what I can tell, what he buried
was romex. Nothing fancy or special. And it's not the first time this guy
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
Thanks
Kaye

Okay Kaye, we need to know exactly what you're dealing with. You mentioned
Romex buried underground. If it really is Romex (NM) and not UF then you
are going to need to change it anyway. Romex is not rated for underground
use and sooner or later moisture will get inside the conductors and they
will just arc in the ground until the connection is broken.

If it is actually UF you have that is good. It is approved for direct
burial and hopefully it is at least 18 inches underground. If it is UF we
need to know what size is the wire. Is it #14, 12, 10? How many insulated
conductors are there? One white, one black, one red? Hopefully there is a
bare or green grounding conductor also. We also need to know the horsepower
of the pump and the voltage it is currently wired for. We also need to know
the approximate length of this wire from the source to the pump. We also
need to know what is at the source for this circuit. Is it at your main
panel where the meter is located? Is it on a two pole circuit breaker?
What size breaker? Pictures would be very helpful.

With good information perhaps we can advise you of a possible solution that
will be safe.

Right now based on what you have already told us I'm thinking that the whole
circuit needs to be trashed. I would suggest installing a 1" or 1 1/4" PVC
underground conduit and pull in a 40 or 50 amp circuit with four conductors.
Install a subpanel in the pumphouse and feed your pump and everything else
from that.

Multiple code and safety violations:
- The existing ground conductor is almost certainly uninsulated and therefore
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]

Chris

--
Kaye in Oregon

Message posted via HomeKB.com
http://www.homekb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/repair/200704/1

According to Afubar via HomeKB.com u33477@uwe:

Can I run just a neutral? Please forgive my ignorance in this area. I've
only ever wired (with existing wires) ceiling fans, moved outlets and outside
lights.

No. It'd work, but it's against code, and there are some real hazards
with it.

You'll have to run a new cable.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

In article 70f3f0a4b32d2@uwe, "Afubar via HomeKB.com" u33477@uwe wrote:
So, Would I be better off converting the pump back to 110.

That certainly would eliminate the issue with not having enough wires for both
240 and 120. Still doesn't fix the problem with buried Romex (if indeed that's
what you have).

Well is only used
for house use. Single occupant. Have 7.5 hp pump for irrigating pasture and
yard. It's located elsewhere. And how do I figure load?

Total nameplate amperage ratings of everything you plan to put on the circuit.
For incandescent light bulbs, divide wattage by 120 to get amps (e.g. 60W
light bulb draws 0.5 amps, 100W bulb = 0.83 amps, etc). For fluorescent
fixtures, if the amperage is not marked on the fixture, do the same
calculation as for incandescents, then add the nameplate amperage of the
ballast (it'll be on a label on the ballast). Not perfect, but close enough.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Apr 19, 2:13 pm, Chris Friesen wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article 70f22496fcfc6@uwe, "Afubar via HomeKB.com" u33477@uwe wrote:
So what I now have is a
cable with 3 wires buried under the ground to the well, what I want is to be
able to put a sub-panel into the shed above the well for lights and outlets.
How can I best accomplish this without burying more wire.
You can't. You need a fourth wire, not just for code compliance, but for
safety as well.

Could the existing ground wire be converted to a neutral and a new
ground rod be sunk at the pump shed?

Chris

i am currently at a job where an inspector passed that but it was for
another inspector. nothing to do with my work.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
.. .
In article aeBVh.93696$6m4.67862@pd7urf1no, "Gary"
wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article 70e82cfb11180@uwe, "Afubar" u33477@uwe wrote:
HI, I just built an 8x12 shed over my well. The well had an existing A
frame
cover over it. It is 5' x 4' x5'2" deep. Has a jet pump wired straight
from
main panel at electric pole, 3 wires directly wired to pressure switch.
220 ,
I think.

Here's the question, is there any way to use the exisisting wiring to
supply
110 power to shed? All I'm looking at is a couple of lights, a couple
of
plugs for minor tool usage.

With a transformer. Otherwise, you need four wires: two hots and ground
(which
you have already), and neutral (which you don't).

Isn't a stove 220? and it gets its 120 from one of the hot legs and the
neutral.

Yes, of course -- but, as noted, he doesn't *have* a neutral. He has two
hots
and a ground.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

I had an old stove in an old house once that had 3 wires to it - two hots
and a neutral - no ground. The plug in did not even have a prong for the
ground.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , Chris Friesen
wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article 70f22496fcfc6@uwe, "Afubar via HomeKB.com" u33477@uwe
wrote:

So what I now have is a
cable with 3 wires buried under the ground to the well, what I want is
to be
able to put a sub-panel into the shed above the well for lights and
outlets.
How can I best accomplish this without burying more wire.

You can't. You need a fourth wire, not just for code compliance, but for
safety as well.

Could the existing ground wire be converted to a neutral and a new
ground rod be sunk at the pump shed?

No.

Multiple code and safety violations:
- The existing ground conductor is almost certainly uninsulated and
therefore
unsuitable for use as a neutral.
- The ground conductor at the shed would not be tied to the service
entrance
ground and could therefore be at a different potential. Google on "ground
loop" for information regarding the dangers.

Yeah that would be fun if the OP put in a pool, above or below ground.



- This cannot be alleviated by running a separate conductor, either, as
the
Code requires that all circuit conductors be contained within the same
cable
or raceway.

The only safe and Code-compliant option I can see for the OP is to convert
the
circuit back to 120V to provide neutral and ground for the lights and
outlets
he wants, and either use a step-up transformer to provide 240V for the
pump,
or convert the pump back to 120V as he says it was originally.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article czYVh.100221$DE1.34534@pd7urf2no, "Gary" wrote:

I had an old stove in an old house once that had 3 wires to it - two hots
and a neutral - no ground. The plug in did not even have a prong for the
ground.

So? Notice "old stove" and "old house". That arrangement is not permitted by
current electrical codes.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Multiple code and safety violations:

Code violations? Yep!

Safety? Maybe so; maybe no.

- The existing ground conductor is almost certainly uninsulated and
therefore
unsuitable for use as a neutral.
- The ground conductor at the shed would not be tied to the service
entrance
ground and could therefore be at a different potential. Google on "ground
loop" for information regarding the dangers.

Yes but the utility service is "wired" much the same way. The utility
neutral (both 240/120 and for the primary voltage) is grounded at every
transformer and (in most places) at every meter or service entry point.

But what the utility does to get the power to your panel isn't covered by
"the code." But that arrangement (with multiple connections between
neutral and ground and no separate ground connection) is generally
considered to be reasonably safe.

If the OP is thinking about doing this on the QT, the important question is
just how BIG the neutral/ground wire is. A secondary question is whether
his well pipe and the casing are plastic or metal. If his well pipe and
casing are metal any ground rod placed in the area would be for purely
cosmetic purposes as the well itself it likely better than the "utility"
ground.

If he wants to "do things right" it's not hard to find 10/3 w/ground
waterproof cable in areas with wells. When my pump failed, the "well guy"
replaced the cable. (He didn't want to worry about the condition of the
old stuff.) I now have a 200' roll of 10/3 w/ground. If I needed some
good sized underground wiring, I would not hesitate to use that stuff.



- This cannot be alleviated by running a separate conductor, either, as
the
Code requires that all circuit conductors be contained within the same
cable
or raceway.

The only safe and Code-compliant option I can see for the OP is to convert
the
circuit back to 120V to provide neutral and ground for the lights and
outlets
he wants, and either use a step-up transformer to provide 240V for the
pump,
or convert the pump back to 120V as he says it was originally.

Nah.

In NO case should he consider using a step up transformer. Keep the 240
volts to the pump and use the transformer to provide local juice.
Consider putting a power switch (or CB) before the transformer as the
transformer will continually consume a few watts of power regardless of
load. The next question, of course, is whether to bond the secondary
"neutral" to ground.

-- .

John Gilmer wrote:
Multiple code and safety violations:


Code violations? Yep!

Safety? Maybe so; maybe no.

I'm still trying to figure out the code violation (hypothetically,
assuming the existing ground is insulated of course).

Nobody has yet commented on my post asking about NEC 250.32 B(2) which
by my reading seems to describe a separately grounded building. Why
wouldn't that apply here?

Chris

Doug Miller wrote:

In article 70f322fd8e6a0@uwe, "Afubar via HomeKB.com" u33477@uwe wrote:
Hang on, before you guys get all upset, from what I can tell, what he buried
was romex.

If it was romex, then you really should pull it out and have it redone
properly. Romex is neither permitted, nor safe, for underground use. You need
Type UF (Underground Feeder) cable for this application.

[snip]
So, Please, I'm willing to learn, teach me.

OK, well -- you need a 4-wire UF cable, sized to the total load, and an
appropriate double-pole circuit breaker. Or bury a conduit, and pull four THHN
or THWN wires of the appropriate size.

One way or another, you need four wires.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Important to note that at first glance type UF cable looks a lot like
type NM cable a.k.a. Romex. Best to read the printing on it to see what
it really is. Also important to know the gauge wire since if you want a
subpanel you probably need a heavier gauge wire such as 10ga to make it
worthwhile.

My recommendation is to replace the wire with a run of PVC conduit
(cheap stuff) and pull new THHN wire of a suitable gauge such as 10ga
(possibly 8ga if it's a long run) so you can install a 30A six space
subpanel (also cheap) in the shed to feed the well pump, lighting and
utility circuits.

According to Chris Friesen :
John Gilmer wrote:
Multiple code and safety violations:


Code violations? Yep!

Safety? Maybe so; maybe no.

I'm still trying to figure out the code violation (hypothetically,
assuming the existing ground is insulated of course).

Nobody has yet commented on my post asking about NEC 250.32 B(2) which
by my reading seems to describe a separately grounded building. Why
wouldn't that apply here?

Conceptually it _could_, presupposing that the existing ground
was insulated (it isn't, because it's romex/romex-like
(eg: NMWU/UF)), a sub-panel was installed, and a ground rod
(or two) installed at the outbuilding. Tho, that would probably
cost more and be less flexible than the alternative (running new
4 conductor wire).
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

Chris Friesen wrote:
John Gilmer wrote:
Multiple code and safety violations:


Code violations? Yep!

Safety? Maybe so; maybe no.

I'm still trying to figure out the code violation (hypothetically,
assuming the existing ground is insulated of course).

Nobody has yet commented on my post asking about NEC 250.32 B(2) which
by my reading seems to describe a separately grounded building. Why
wouldn't that apply here?

Chris

Chris
It would apply if the existing wiring can carry thirty amperes to the
shed because that is the minimum size for a feeder under the US NEC. It
also depends which addition of the NEC is being enforced there. The
2005 edition does not allow the installation of three wire, 120/240 volt
feeders between buildings. In the absence of thirty ampere wiring there
is nothing to do but run new wiring. The new wiring need only be
sufficient for the new loads since the NEC specifically allows a
separate supply to water pumps that are also used for fire protection.
It probably was not a great idea to build the shed over the well because
the shed is now a fire exposure to the pumps wiring. A separate metal
or masonry shed or vault for just the well would minimize the chance of
your loosing the well water during another fire event.
--
Tom Horne

I'm sorry I've been away from this so long. I looked in the breaker box on
the service pole and what I saw really scared me. Needless to say, I will be
digging and laying new wire in PVC out to the new shed. The distance is only
ablut 30 feet (probably less). I've tried to downlod pictures of the breaker
box and wire, haven't had too much sucess. I do have picts of my deck,
bathroom remodel, the old well topper and such in the photo album. Not sure
how to post a link. Anyway guys, I really appreciate all the advice and as i
get closer to running new wire, I will be back to ask more questions.

Thanks all
Kaye

Goedjn wrote:
Thanks, I'm positive that the pump is 220. Here's the story, the orignal
structure on the property burned to the ground 5 years ago. At the time, the
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
able to put a sub-panel into the shed above the well for lights and outlets.
How can I best accomplish this without burying more wire.

He did know what he was doing. You just failed to specify that you
wanted additional capacity for expansion. Before you start messing
around with trying to get different voltages and a nuetral out of your
current set up, how much total power can you pull over the existing
wire? Even if you had four wires, the hot leads are probably sized
for the pump, which would leave you no excess capacity anyway.

You should break out the old shovel, and put in a new feeder line
to a sub-panel in the shed, and re-route the feed to the well
pump through that.

Failing that, mount some solar panels on the shed, and or
feed a UPS through a transformer.

Note that many wells can't deliver water fast enough
for fire-fighting purposes anyway.
Systems that deliver 7GMP at a mere 40 PSI with 50Gallon
pressure tanks aren't uncommon.

You really need a cistern
with at least 500 gallon capacity, and a pump that can
deliver 30 GPM at at least 75 PSI.

A better system would be 3-5,000 gallon reservoir,
and 50GPM at 100+ PSI.

--
Message posted via HomeKB.com
http://www.homekb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/repair/200704/1

I hope this works, here are links to pictures of the original well topper
with the service pole in the background, the breaker box (grey wire is the
one running to the well house.pump), and the as yet unfinished 8 x 12 new
green house shed that I am building.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...erwithpole.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...Breakerbox.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v369/Afubar/wire.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...unfinished.jpg

--
Kaye in Oregon

Message posted via HomeKB.com
http://www.homekb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/repair/200704/1

"Afubar via HomeKB.com" u33477@uwe wrote in message
news:7131b065f885f@uwe...
I hope this works, here are links to pictures of the original well topper
with the service pole in the background, the breaker box (grey wire is the
one running to the well house.pump), and the as yet unfinished 8 x 12 new
green house shed that I am building.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...erwithpole.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...Breakerbox.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v369/Afubar/wire.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...unfinished.jpg

--
Kaye in Oregon


Hi Kaye. I looked at your pictures. It looks as though the small wires for
your pump come off of that 100 amp two pole circuit breaker. I guess you
already know that is not good. I assume that breaker is for the sub-panel
in the house. I am not familiar with your main electrical panel so I can't
give you precise information. My concern is that there aren't any spaces
for another two pole circuit breaker for the line that you are planning to
run to the pump house. It looks like there is a big circuit breaker in the
middle, but I am not sure if that is the main or if it is even being used.
Maybe that can be removed and additional circuit breakers can be added in
its place. The red handled circuit breaker looks like it is not being used,
but from the angle of the photo I cannot see if there is room for a two pole
breaker on that side.

Any chance you can get a local electrician to have a look and get his
opinion?

On Apr 24, 2:46?pm, "Afubar via HomeKB.com" u33477@uwe wrote:
I hope this works, here are links to pictures of the original well topper
with the service pole in the background, the breaker box (grey wire is the
one running to the well house.pump), and the as yet unfinished 8 x 12 new
green house shed that I am building.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...erwithpole.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...Breakerbox.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v369/Afubar/wire.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...unfinished.jpg

--
Kaye in Oregon

Message posted via HomeKB.comhttp://www.homekb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/repair/200704/1

real class electric work there.......

trouble is they failed the class.

I once found 2 lengths of romex tied in a knot with wirenuts and no
box in a wall. apparently someone ran out of wire so they tied it
together.

We were gutting the house at the time, after a fire. there was so much
bad wiring i was amazed it hadnt burned from that.

a cat had knocked over a lamp.......135K in building damages not
including possesions

"He did know what he was doing. You just failed to specify that you
wanted additional capacity for expansion. "

Sure he did. Just take a look at photos below.

Have decided to run all new wire and do this right. The son of a friend is
an electrician, will seek his advice and help.

Thanks to all that replied.

Kaye

--
Kaye in Oregon

Message posted via HomeKB.com
http://www.homekb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/repair/200704/1