I'm in the planning stages of finishing a room in my basement. The
main panel for the house is 200A and is located in the basement. What
I would like to do is add a second 200A panel just for the basement.
The reason why I want to do a separate panel for the bsement (not a
sub panel) is that at some point in the future we may want to move the
washing machine and clothes dryer into the basement, possibly put a
kitchen, and maybe a hottub. The house is 7 years old, and all
electric w/ a heatpump. Initially the basement will be used to host
LAN parties (parties where everyone brings their computers and has fun
gaming against each other) for up to 30 people (30 computers and
monitors).

Am I right that a sub-panel off the 200A main panel would not be the
way to go?

Is it even possible to do something like this:
Utility ---Meter-------------
| |
| |
200A 200A


Instead of this:
Utility ---Meter ------200A ----- 100A


To accomplish that would I have to have 2 meters? (against zoning to
have 2 meters on a single fam residence where I live.)
Utility ---Meter--------Meter
| |
| |
200A 200A


Or would I have to do this?
Utility ---Meter ------400A ----- 200A

Of course whatever I do will be done by a licensed electrician.
Thanks in advance for any advice.

If you're breaker panel is already in the basement, then all you need to do
is add the circuits. You're not talking about that much additional current
needs. And since your "moving" the washer and dryer, there's no more draw
than you already have on those particular items.

--
Steve Barker

YOU should be the one
controlling YOUR car.
Check out:
www.lightsout.org




wrote in message
ups.com...
I'm in the planning stages of finishing a room in my basement. The
main panel for the house is 200A and is located in the basement. What
I would like to do is add a second 200A panel just for the basement.
The reason why I want to do a separate panel for the bsement (not a
sub panel) is that at some point in the future we may want to move the
washing machine and clothes dryer into the basement, possibly put a
kitchen, and maybe a hottub. The house is 7 years old, and all
electric w/ a heatpump. Initially the basement will be used to host
LAN parties (parties where everyone brings their computers and has fun
gaming against each other) for up to 30 people (30 computers and
monitors).

Am I right that a sub-panel off the 200A main panel would not be the
way to go?

Is it even possible to do something like this:
Utility ---Meter-------------
| |
| |
200A 200A


Instead of this:
Utility ---Meter ------200A ----- 100A


To accomplish that would I have to have 2 meters? (against zoning to
have 2 meters on a single fam residence where I live.)
Utility ---Meter--------Meter
| |
| |
200A 200A


Or would I have to do this?
Utility ---Meter ------400A ----- 200A

Of course whatever I do will be done by a licensed electrician.
Thanks in advance for any advice.

In article . com, wrote:
I'm in the planning stages of finishing a room in my basement. The
main panel for the house is 200A and is located in the basement. What
I would like to do is add a second 200A panel just for the basement.

Why? You're only talking [below] about another 30 or 40 amps of load (the
washer and dryer don't count -- that's not new load, just relocated load).
What do you need with a second 200A panel?

The reason why I want to do a separate panel for the bsement (not a
sub panel) is that at some point in the future we may want to move the
washing machine and clothes dryer into the basement, possibly put a
kitchen, and maybe a hottub.

So? That doesn't preclude installing a subpanel.

A subpanel is definitely the easiest and lowest-cost method of expanding the
number of available circuits. I don't understand your reluctance to do this.
Why would you want to add another main panel?

And of course you may not even need to do that, depending on the space
available in your current panel.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

I'll have to look and see how much room is in my existing panel (not
much if I remember right (4 or 6 slots at the bottom).

So it doesn't matter that 30 computers running at the same time will
be using 75-150A by themselves? (my computer is using 2.5A idle, and
3.4A when playing games (550watt Power supply) and some of the people
that will be gaming with me have beefier hardware (750-1000watt power
supplies and dual video cards so 4A idle, 6-7A while playing)). Thank
goodness for LCD monitors and their lower power requirements.

wrote in message
ups.com...
I'm in the planning stages of finishing a room in my basement. The
main panel for the house is 200A and is located in the basement. What
I would like to do is add a second 200A panel just for the basement.
The reason why I want to do a separate panel for the bsement (not a
sub panel) is that at some point in the future we may want to move the
washing machine and clothes dryer into the basement, possibly put a
kitchen, and maybe a hottub. The house is 7 years old, and all
electric w/ a heatpump. Initially the basement will be used to host
LAN parties (parties where everyone brings their computers and has fun
gaming against each other) for up to 30 people (30 computers and
monitors).

Am I right that a sub-panel off the 200A main panel would not be the
way to go?

Is it even possible to do something like this:
Utility ---Meter-------------
| |
| |
200A 200A


Instead of this:
Utility ---Meter ------200A ----- 100A


To accomplish that would I have to have 2 meters? (against zoning to
have 2 meters on a single fam residence where I live.)
Utility ---Meter--------Meter
| |
| |
200A 200A


Or would I have to do this?
Utility ---Meter ------400A ----- 200A

Of course whatever I do will be done by a licensed electrician.
Thanks in advance for any advice.


Based on the information provided I'm inclined to think that all you would
need is a subpanel off of the existing main panel. I think Square D makes a
30 circuit 100 or 125 amp panel. I'm presuming that there are a few spaces
left in the existing panel. To tie in a second 200 amp panel to the
existing meter is a lot of work and will still provide the same amount of
power as adding the subpanel. If you feel that the load will warrant a 300
or 400 amp service you can do a load calculation as per Article 220. With
all of those computers going you should make sure that your grounding
electrode system is up to par and consider adding some whole house surge
protection.

wrote in message
ups.com...
I'll have to look and see how much room is in my existing panel (not
much if I remember right (4 or 6 slots at the bottom).

So it doesn't matter that 30 computers running at the same time will
be using 75-150A by themselves? (my computer is using 2.5A idle, and
3.4A when playing games (550watt Power supply) and some of the people
that will be gaming with me have beefier hardware (750-1000watt power
supplies and dual video cards so 4A idle, 6-7A while playing)). Thank
goodness for LCD monitors and their lower power requirements.



I don't know if you have taken air conditioning into consideration for the
basement gameroom. 30 computers with 30 people is a lot of heat and
depending on that A/C load a service upgrade may be in order. While all of
this gaming is going on will there be other activities or occupants in the
rest of the house? That could be a factor when determining if you need a
service upgrade.

In article . com, wrote:
I'll have to look and see how much room is in my existing panel (not
much if I remember right (4 or 6 slots at the bottom).

So it doesn't matter that 30 computers running at the same time will
be using 75-150A by themselves?

With respect to whether you need a subpanel or a main panel, no, it doesn't
matter. The electrons can't tell what kind of panel they flow through.

(my computer is using 2.5A idle, and
3.4A when playing games (550watt Power supply)

Have you verified those numbers with a clamp-on ammeter, or are you just
extrapolating from the power supply rating?


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

I'll bet if a guy actually measured the amps being used by a computer, it
would be a lot less. You have to remember that just because you have a
550watt PS, doesn't mean it using all that. Just like welders never use
anywhere near the power the plates say they do.

--
Steve Barker

YOU should be the one
controlling YOUR car.
Check out:
www.lightsout.org




wrote in message
ups.com...
I'll have to look and see how much room is in my existing panel (not
much if I remember right (4 or 6 slots at the bottom).

So it doesn't matter that 30 computers running at the same time will
be using 75-150A by themselves? (my computer is using 2.5A idle, and
3.4A when playing games (550watt Power supply) and some of the people
that will be gaming with me have beefier hardware (750-1000watt power
supplies and dual video cards so 4A idle, 6-7A while playing)). Thank
goodness for LCD monitors and their lower power requirements.

On Mar 27, 8:11 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article . com, wrote:
I'll have to look and see how much room is in my existing panel (not
much if I remember right (4 or 6 slots at the bottom).
Turns out I have 3 blanks at the top:
photo - http://www.terry.uga.edu/~craigw/ima...nel(large).jpg

So it doesn't matter that 30 computers running at the same time will
be using 75-150A by themselves?

With respect to whether you need a subpanel or a main panel, no, it doesn't
matter. The electrons can't tell what kind of panel they flow through.
Does this mean having 2 - 200A panels coming from the meter is still
only 200A of power available (the second panel NOT a sub-panel of the
first)?

(my computer is using 2.5A idle, and
3.4A when playing games (550watt Power supply)

Have you verified those numbers with a clamp-on ammeter, or are you just
extrapolating from the power supply rating?
I dont have a clamp on ammeter (wish I did). I basing it on this from
my battery backup:
http://www.terry.uga.edu/~craigw/images/poweridle.jpg

I guestimated the amperage based on idle and what that screen reports
when I close a game (around 340watts, but i can't screen shot before
it starts dropping) and dividing by 10 (Turns out the formula is watts/
volts=amps, so 2.2A at idle and 3.0A when playing?). My monitor (lcd)
is plugged into the same battery backup, so that load is for CPU and
monitor.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Mar 27, 8:03 pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:
wrote in message

ups.com...

I'll have to look and see how much room is in my existing panel (not
much if I remember right (4 or 6 slots at the bottom).

So it doesn't matter that 30 computers running at the same time will
be using 75-150A by themselves? (my computer is using 2.5A idle, and
3.4A when playing games (550watt Power supply) and some of the people
that will be gaming with me have beefier hardware (750-1000watt power
supplies and dual video cards so 4A idle, 6-7A while playing)). Thank
goodness for LCD monitors and their lower power requirements.

I don't know if you have taken air conditioning into consideration for thebasementgameroom. 30 computers with 30 people is a lot of heat and
depending on that A/C load aserviceupgrade may be in order. While all of
this gaming is going on will there be other activities or occupants in the
rest of the house? That could be a factor when determining if you need aserviceupgrade.

http://www.amazon.com/Royal-Sovereig...043444&sr=1-12
That is the AC unit I hope will keep things cool. The main room is
35'x17', and that unit draws about 9A. When I finish the rest of the
basement I intend to go with central heat/AC. There will be other
people in the house, and they could very well be cooking/cleaning/
doing laundry.

On Mar 27, 8:29 pm, "Steve Barker"
wrote:
I'll bet if a guy actually measured the amps being used by a computer, it
would be a lot less. You have to remember that just because you have a
550watt PS, doesn't mean it using all that. Just like welders never use
anywhere near the power the plates say they do.

--
Steve Barker

YOU should be the one
controlling YOUR car.
Check out:www.lightsout.org

wrote in message

ups.com...

I'll have to look and see how much room is in my existing panel (not
much if I remember right (4 or 6 slots at the bottom).

So it doesn't matter that 30 computers running at the same time will
be using 75-150A by themselves? (my computer is using 2.5A idle, and
3.4A when playing games (550watt Power supply) and some of the people
that will be gaming with me have beefier hardware (750-1000watt power
supplies and dual video cards so 4A idle, 6-7A while playing)). Thank
goodness for LCD monitors and their lower power requirements.

Yeah... 550w theoretically would be 550/110=5A

On Mar 27, 5:07 pm, wrote:
You can do the above. Just get a listed splicing device for the split
in the service entrance conductors.

How can he do that and still meet code requirements that want all
electricity to a 'unit' cut off at one box? What would permit an
exception? Two mains boxes serving the same living unit would violate
code requirements.

On Mar 27, 9:03 pm, wrote:
http://www.amazon.com/Royal-Sovereig...se-Conditioner...
That is the AC unit I hope will keep things cool. The main room is
35'x17', and that unit draws about 9A. When I finish the rest of the
basement I intend to go with central heat/AC. There will be other
people in the house, and they could very well be cooking/cleaning/
doing laundry.

100 amps of computers is about 40,000 BTU of heat. How does a 9000
BTU air conditioner remove 40,000 BTU of computer heat, plus 30
people, plus the normal room cooling? Size of the room is completely
irrelevant to the calculations. But then if you room is generating
heat from 100 amps and removed by an air conditioner of only 9 amps,
well, even those numbers are impossible.

"w_tom" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Mar 27, 9:03 pm, wrote:
http://www.amazon.com/Royal-Sovereig...se-Conditioner...
That is the AC unit I hope will keep things cool. The main room is
35'x17', and that unit draws about 9A. When I finish the rest of the
basement I intend to go with central heat/AC. There will be other
people in the house, and they could very well be cooking/cleaning/
doing laundry.

100 amps of computers is about 40,000 BTU of heat. How does a 9000
BTU air conditioner remove 40,000 BTU of computer heat, plus 30
people, plus the normal room cooling? Size of the room is completely
irrelevant to the calculations. But then if you room is generating
heat from 100 amps and removed by an air conditioner of only 9 amps,
well, even those numbers are impossible.


Yeah, more like he'll need to run an industrial sized AC unit - like the one
in the data centers I design for labs at work. Heat dissipation can be a
real problem for computers and humans - not to mention high performance
computers prefer to be kept cool to cold - much colder than humans enjoy.

Another consideration - does his fire code allow 30 people occupancy in a
residential facility?

On Mar 28, 12:00 am, "Eigenvector" wrote:
"w_tom" wrote in message

oups.com...

On Mar 27, 9:03 pm, wrote:
http://www.amazon.com/Royal-Sovereig...se-Conditioner...
That is the AC unit I hope will keep things cool. The main room is
35'x17', and that unit draws about 9A. When I finish the rest of the
basementI intend to go with central heat/AC. There will be other
people in the house, and they could very well be cooking/cleaning/
doing laundry.

100 amps of computers is about 40,000 BTU of heat. How does a 9000
BTU air conditioner remove 40,000 BTU of computer heat, plus 30
people, plus the normal room cooling? Size of the room is completely
irrelevant to the calculations. But then if you room is generating
heat from 100 amps and removed by an air conditioner of only 9 amps,
well, even those numbers are impossible.

Yeah, more like he'll need to run an industrial sized AC unit - like the one
in the data centers I design for labs at work. Heat dissipation can be a
real problem for computers and humans - not to mention high performance
computers prefer to be kept cool to cold - much colder than humans enjoy.

Another consideration - does his fire code allow 30 people occupancy in a
residential facility?

The basement LAN parties I've been to (largest was about 40 people)
did get warm (but it was in the fall, so windows and fans helped).
And one of the basement LAN parties I regularly attend only happens
Fall, Winter , Spring because of the thermal issues. I may go with a
20,000BTU window unit if the heat problem is real bad. I'll probably
start with 8-10 people and add from there.

Not sure about occupancy limits. The code where I live is very loose,
and more zoning oriented (one meter per house, but what happens inside
the house not checked much if at all (rural county). The do have a
county inspector(s), but my previous neighbor was a retired
electrician and he said he's not sure why the have 'em cause you could
train a monkey to check what they do (they miss, or don't check a
bunch of stuff).

On Mar 28, 12:00 am, "Eigenvector" wrote:
"w_tom" wrote in message

oups.com...

On Mar 27, 9:03 pm, wrote:
http://www.amazon.com/Royal-Sovereig...se-Conditioner...
That is the AC unit I hope will keep things cool. The main room is
35'x17', and that unit draws about 9A. When I finish the rest of the
basementI intend to go with central heat/AC. There will be other
people in the house, and they could very well be cooking/cleaning/
doing laundry.

100 amps of computers is about 40,000 BTU of heat. How does a 9000
BTU air conditioner remove 40,000 BTU of computer heat, plus 30
people, plus the normal room cooling? Size of the room is completely
irrelevant to the calculations. But then if you room is generating
heat from 100 amps and removed by an air conditioner of only 9 amps,
well, even those numbers are impossible.

Yeah, more like he'll need to run an industrial sized AC unit - like the one
in the data centers I design for labs at work. Heat dissipation can be a
real problem for computers and humans - not to mention high performance
computers prefer to be kept cool to cold - much colder than humans enjoy.

Another consideration - does his fire code allow 30 people occupancy in a
residential facility?

The basement LAN parties I've been to (largest was about 40 people)
did get warm (but it was in the fall, so windows and fans helped).
And one of the basement LAN parties I regularly attend only happens
Fall, Winter , Spring because of the thermal issues. I may go with a
20,000BTU window unit if the heat problem is real bad. I'll probably
start with 8-10 people and add from there.

Not sure about occupancy limits. The code where I live is very loose,
and more zoning oriented (one meter per house, but what happens inside
the house not checked much if at all (rural county). The do have a
county inspector(s), but my previous neighbor was a retired
electrician and he said he's not sure why the have 'em cause you could
train a monkey to check what they do (they miss, or don't check a
bunch of stuff).

wrote:
I dont have a clamp on ammeter (wish I did). I basing it on this from
my battery backup:
http://www.terry.uga.edu/~craigw/images/poweridle.jpg

I guestimated the amperage based on idle and what that screen reports
when I close a game (around 340watts, but i can't screen shot before
it starts dropping) and dividing by 10 (Turns out the formula is
watts/ volts=amps, so 2.2A at idle and 3.0A when playing?). My
monitor (lcd) is plugged into the same battery backup, so that load
is for CPU and monitor.

So get one. About $17 from Harbor Freight. Also get a Kill-A-Watt: a plug-in
power monitor (voltage, amps, KW, KWH, etc.). About $25 on Ebay.

In article . com, wrote:
On Mar 27, 8:11 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article . com,
wrote:
I'll have to look and see how much room is in my existing panel (not
much if I remember right (4 or 6 slots at the bottom).
Turns out I have 3 blanks at the top:
photo - http://www.terry.uga.edu/~craigw/ima...nel(large).jpg

So it doesn't matter that 30 computers running at the same time will
be using 75-150A by themselves?

With respect to whether you need a subpanel or a main panel, no, it doesn't
matter. The electrons can't tell what kind of panel they flow through.

Does this mean having 2 - 200A panels coming from the meter is still
only 200A of power available (the second panel NOT a sub-panel of the
first)?

The amount of power you have available is limited by the size and number of
the service conductors coming from the power company's transformer to your
meter. You have 200A service right now. Unless you add another service
(increase the number of service conductors) or upgrade the existing service to
300A or 400A (increase the size of the service conductors), you're never going
to get more than 200 amps, no matter how many panels or what type of panels
you install.


(my computer is using 2.5A idle, and
3.4A when playing games (550watt Power supply)

Have you verified those numbers with a clamp-on ammeter, or are you just
extrapolating from the power supply rating?

I dont have a clamp on ammeter (wish I did).

Get one. That computer probably isn't drawing anywhere near as much power as
you think it is.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Thanks for all the comments! I definately have a better idea of what
I'm going to watch out for.... now off to ebay to get an ammeter!
Thanks again!

On Mar 27, 11:53 pm, wrote:
You can have up to 6 "grouped" disconnects. If the panels are next to
each other that is "grouped". This is a very common installation in a
commercial setting.

I thought those 'groups' had to service separate sections of a
building. And I thought that grouping could only be in a same
residence when each box serviced a different residential unit.
Perchance, anyone remember the article number?

On Tue, 27 Mar 2007 20:00:06 -0800, "Eigenvector"
wrote:


"w_tom" wrote in message
roups.com...
On Mar 27, 9:03 pm, wrote:
http://www.amazon.com/Royal-Sovereig...se-Conditioner...
That is the AC unit I hope will keep things cool. The main room is
35'x17', and that unit draws about 9A. When I finish the rest of the
basement I intend to go with central heat/AC. There will be other
people in the house, and they could very well be cooking/cleaning/
doing laundry.

100 amps of computers is about 40,000 BTU of heat. How does a 9000
BTU air conditioner remove 40,000 BTU of computer heat, plus 30
people, plus the normal room cooling? Size of the room is completely
irrelevant to the calculations. But then if you room is generating
heat from 100 amps and removed by an air conditioner of only 9 amps,
well, even those numbers are impossible.


Yeah, more like he'll need to run an industrial sized AC unit - like the one
in the data centers I design for labs at work. Heat dissipation can be a
real problem for computers and humans - not to mention high performance
computers prefer to be kept cool to cold - much colder than humans enjoy.

Another consideration - does his fire code allow 30 people occupancy in a
residential facility?


Worth asking, but most of the rules I've looked at don't start
with the special rules until you get to at least 50.
He's more likely to run into zoning problems than building code
issues.


30 doesn't even get you to the point where you need
additional/wider exits according to this document from NY.state.

http://w3.health.state.ny.us/dbspace...a?OpenDocument

w_tom wrote:

On Mar 27, 11:53 pm, wrote:

You can have up to 6 "grouped" disconnects. If the panels are next to
each other that is "grouped". This is a very common installation in a
commercial setting.


I thought those 'groups' had to service separate sections of a
building. And I thought that grouping could only be in a same
residence when each box serviced a different residential unit.
Perchance, anyone remember the article number?


Nope, nope and 230.71

--
bud--

On Tue, 27 Mar 2007 19:29:14 -0500, "Steve Barker"
wrote:

I'll bet if a guy actually measured the amps being used by a computer, it
would be a lot less. You have to remember that just because you have a
550watt PS, doesn't mean it using all that. Just like welders never use
anywhere near the power the plates say they do.


But when you are tryin to calculate a load for sizing a service you
have to go off nameplates. Worse case scenario everything all comes
on at once it needs to be able to handle it all.

Tazz writes:

But when you are tryin to calculate a load for sizing a service you
have to go off nameplates. Worse case scenario everything all comes
on at once it needs to be able to handle it all.

The rating on a computer power supply just tells you the maximum output,
and the input that would accompany that amount of output. Power
supplies are generally rated somewhat conservatively, so that even if
you're using all of the peripherals at once, the actual power
consumption will be lower than the power supply rating.

This is different from a TV or a refrigerator or other complete
appliance, where the nameplate tells you the maximum expected
consumption of that appliance as a whole. Custom-built computers (that
gamers normally use) generally don't have a nameplate giving actual
power consumption.

Dave

On Mar 28, 1:02 pm, wrote:
BTW look at the bright side, you get to sell them 2 polyphasers

Would not do me any good. I have no financial relationship to any
power protector company. I also do not sell earth or earthing
electrodes. This recommendation (multiple mains boxes instead of a
sub panel) surprised me. I did not realize that was code legal for
one residential unit.

On Mar 28, 10:55 am, Goedjn wrote:
Worth asking, but most of the rules I've looked at don't start
with the special rules until you get to at least 50.

Does this mean if I run a grassroots campaign for president of for
CA governor out of my basement, then I must limit my campaign rallies
to 50? It's going to be a long campaign.