I have a simple suggestion. Watch your neighbors' trash. When you see
them throw various equipment away, take it home and take it apart. See
if you see signs of intentionally poor design, trying to save pennies
at the huge expense of the customer, etc. See how many interchangeable
parts you see, how well made is the mechanism etc. If anything, doing
so is fun and educational.

i

The main thing I detest with modern products is keyboards. I used
to be able to buy proper double injection moulded keyboards in the
pre PC days but they arent even buyable now even with the branded
produces like Microsoft and Logitech and the stupid cheap stuck on
lettering never lasts very long at all.

I'm pleased to agree with that comment since it's on topic
and something that's near and dear to my heart.
I use my computer keyboard every day so it's not just an appliance,
it's a tool. It ought to fit my hand and operate reliably.
You'll have to pry my original IBM PS/2 space-saving keyboard
from my cold dead hands - I ain't giving' this up for anything!
The keys FEEL RIGHT and really click, not fake springs here!
It's survived a lot of pounding and frustration
and NONE of the keycap legends are smudged.
Only recently I noticed that the matte finish has rubbed off
the left shift key and the "A" key, making the surface smooth.
The keyboard has been in daily use for perhaps 10 years.

But I wouldnt go back to corded mice and keyboards again.
In spades with non optical mice either.

I favor trackballs and I lament how the award-winning ergonomic ones
are not available anymore.
That's not planned obsolescence or feature-itis
so much as the "race to the bottom":
whoever sells the parts with the lowest price or highest markup wins
by slowly deleting or removing options until they're no longer available.
My Itac trackball's buttons are fully reprogrammable so they work without
any specialized drivers. Nobody else does that in hardware,
it's always part of their drivers (which are a nightmare to configure & update).

Similarly:
- VCRs have been stripped of all their buttons so there's no way
to use them without the remote control. If the remote is lost or broken,
then most of the features are "lost" because the universal remotes
don't give all the original buttons.

- home camcorders keep losing features such as aux mic input,
which several friends require for their taping.
They can't afford the $xx,000 "professional" cameras just to get
features that are no longer included in the $x00 home versions.

- high end audio equipment is hard to get: some is no longer made
AT ANY PRICE due to Chinese products flooding the market
with lower prices and lowered expectations.

- similarly, the Yamaha CD burners were top rated for reliability of
mechanism and firmware. They're no longer available thanks to market erosion
to Chinese CD burners. For the home-professional,
I don't care if I can buy a new CD burner every week or every day,
I need RELIABLE OPERATION that these new disposible ones cannot provide.
I need CDs that are burned precisely to read well a week, a year or 10 years later.
It's unsure if the cheapie CD burners can really achieve that :-(
And similarly, the CD blanks are sometimes crap-tastic
despite all the advances in manufacturing tech that makes it possible
to create high-reliability media, if anyone's willing to pay the extra pennies.


--

-- mejeep deMeep ferret!

Rod Speed wrote:
Andrew VK3BFA wrote
William Noble wrote

nonrepairable is not the same as planned obsolescense.
A new product may be impossible to repair because it
uses custom electronics and special assembly techniques
but that doesn't mean it's planned to quit working in 3 years.

Yes it is - your wrong.

Nope.

Theres actually an engineering discipline devoted to this
subject - its called "Stress Engineering" ie how many
cycles can the door open and close before ir breaks

The reality is that that isnt done with domestic appliances.

Of course it is - if your making a million of anything, you minimise
costs to the last cent, because 1c by 1,000,000 is REAL money. We can
put a man on the moon - is it so hard to figure out MTBF of electronic
equipment. And if the factory costs millions of dollars to set up
(they do) its in their best interests to keep them running - the costs
of shutting down are prohibitive.

And, good people, if you want a new TV set, there has NEVER been a
better time to buy one. LCD, Plasma are killing the conventional CRT
market - havent you wondered why they are so cheap now? - its
desperation time till new plant comes on stream to make the new
consumer toys....

- or, how many hours will the just adequate component get
stinking hot before it desolders itself from the circuit board.....

That aint designing it to fail just outside the warranty.

Oh? - how come PCB pads are barely adequate for the heat dissipation of
the component - as far as I know, thats been taught in engineering
courses for the last 20 years.....ANY tech will immediately start
looking for dry joints as a first thing to do issue...

all things that most technicians are intimately familiar
with - (their called "bread and butter" faults..).
we used to make a living from them....

They werent deliberately designed in. Just lousy design.

I beg to differ. You are saying EVERY manufacturer on the planet has
the identical "bad design" features.....and keeps on making them, model
after model, year after year?.....

the technically difficult repairs that took EONS you did
for self satisfaction and lost money on - that was ok
when there was enough of the other stuff to make a living.

The whole societal mindset has changed - most of my customers now
are "mature aged" and have the life long expectation that when thing
breaks, it gets fixed. The younger ones - don't even bother, they
EXPECT it to break soon after the warranty ends (thats BONUS time!)
and will not even think about getting it repaired....

Because it makes not sense to spend a high percentage of the cost of
a new VCR repairing an existing one. The new one gets a new warranty.

Yep. Thats why they are no repaired. I though this was why this thread
got started?


Modern manufacturing methods - them too - snap together plastic
assemblies designed for easy assembly with no thought for subsequent
servicing (hey, nuts and bolts cost MONEY) - done by unskilled, low
wage workers to whom a screwdriver is probably a complex machine tool.

And most of that stuff just doesnt fail, most obviously
with plug packs and molded power cords.

Modern circuit boards - SMD components, machine assembled,
wave soldered - give VERY high reliability due lack of "operator error"

Nope, due to the technology.

Idiot. The technology was partly developed to eliminate manual
operation, as well as speed/ease of assembly. Do some research. NASA
figured this out in the 1960's....a huge proportion of failures were
due to poor human made solder joints - the short term cure was HRHS
certification of operators, the evolution was rigidly controlled
machine operation....

but again, virtually impossible to repair without specialist equipment -
fine if your in aerospace, or medical, or industrial where you have
the margins, but not domestic stuff. (and thats assuming the
complex in house LSI IC is even available - it usually isnt...)

And they hardly ever need to be repaired too.

Erk. Then whats the problem? - why are we having this discussion? - if
its so reliable, surely servicing isn't an issue?


And the manufacturers too - theres no money in servicing, 10,000 TV
sets can be ordered, delivered to the customers distribution centre
straight off the boat all from one person sitting in front of a PC -
no warehouses, spare parts stock, skilled staff to manage the
spare parts, service data to manage, field service staff to
control, cost of running a service centre....

And those arent designed to fail just outside the warranty.

But they do. 3 to 5 years from a modern domestic ANYTHING is good value
now....or has your experience been different from the rest of us? -

Same for service data - costs too much. Its easier to replace
something under warranty irrespective of the fault, crush it, and
claim it as a tax loss than maintain a service centre with skilled techs,,,,

The reality is that costs a lot less to stamp out another in the
asian factory than it can ever cost to have a first world tech fix it.

Erk (again) yes, well, thats why things dont get repaired - so cheap to
buy new ones - pity about the quality issues....

Sooo - this leaves people like us - slightly demented, do it
yourselfers, who machine bits out of aluminum to replace a broken
plastic bracket (thats why I got into this bizarre metalworking world)
- people who will spend DAYS chasing a generic replacement, who,
when they see something of a similar model in the dumpster, will
rescue it to take home for spares.....

Do I complain - yeh, fer sure. Would I do anything else - no way,
I enjoy the challenge. Learning new skills, being rat cunning and
devious, figuring out how to beat the obsolescence game....its fun
(mostly) Pity it barely pays the bills - fortunately the house is paid
for, the kids are off our hands (mostly) and I dont lust after a turbo
Porsche...(now, more tools - thats different...)

And they are dirt cheap now.

That I will concede. And is not the quality the same as all the other
disposable products? And for those people out there proudly running
their Bridgeport or Monarch in their basement, they came from once
prosperous factories that got decimated by cheap modern crap. How else
could you afford them?

Its happened in my trade too - there is SO MUCH high quality test
equipment out there now, stuff I could not afford even 10 years ago.
Now I can - the companies that used it are no more, or its so cheap to
replace a "black box" that they don't need to maintain service
engineers and test gear. And in telecoms, I will grudgingly concede
that there is redundancy - but when BIG network fault happens, theres
a mad scramble to find enough techs to go out and fix it.....((because
the accountants says the new stuff is so reliable, (they read the
glossy brochures, sorta like IT people) why do we need to pay staff in
case it MIGHT break down?))



And when my generation goes - thats it, cant
see anyone choosing to do this to make a living.

Corse they wont.

Good, you got one right.

Sitting at a service station console taking money for gasoline pays better.

And so do almost everything else too.

The only industries where you CAN make good money servicing a-

1.Where the machine itself costs LOTS of money,
so the repair is a small part of the cost
2.Where people are standing idle because the machine is down

Even that is arguable, an operation like that should have decent redundancy.

Rubbish. Any machine thats down is losing money (ask the accountants -
they run things these days) - and there is virtually NO REDUNDANCY,
even in hospital situations - next time you visit someone in hospital,
look at the calibration tag on the machines (IV drips are a favourite)-
see how long since its been serviced. Have a look around the back - see
how much dust/muck is jammed into the air filter element on the cooling
fan....(ECG's are good for this.....

BTW - I think "redundancy" has been replaced by one of those marvelous
new management speak phrases - "Just In Time" - the premise that the
supply chain functions perfectly to avoid ANY down time.

Multiple redundancy is a thing we HOPE they put in nuclear power
stations, and aeroplanes -and even thats being pushed. Civil aviation
here - most commercial airliners have 3 generators, time was if one
failed, the plane was pulled from service. Not now - it waits till the
next "scheduled service"....(costs money to take it out of service for
"unnecessary repairs"...and besides, the thing will fly on 1
generator....)

Anyway, I just fixed a 20 yo VCR for a customer - worn plastic gears
not meshing. Cure - fit washer on shaft to raise gear teeth to unworn
portion.

And I will keep on doing things like this, and you will keep on buying
new consumer crap - whose the winner?

Andrew VK3BFA.

Thats it, no more from me - I am trying not to RANT....(and failing)



3 There is some sort of "voodoo mystique" about it (medical is a good example)

Ah, that feels SO much better ..........

Andrew VK3BFA.

Companies are setting up the situation that you are forced to buy new
versus repair the used applicance ...

Only partly true. Do you want to keep your computer forever? Do you think
you'd be on line here if you still had that 286 processor?

That's opening up a can of worms:
some PCs were upgradeable, with socketed CPUs and even
daughterboards for the CPU, but with raised expectations of our computers
and evolving motherboard chipsets and faster peripherals,
it's really hard to truly salvage much from a PC
other than disks and some peripherals.

BUT: some specialized applications require the "legacy" interfaces
that are being phased out, such as custom interface cards with the ISA interface,
or RS232 serial interfaced peripherals.
There are often items that have no equivalent in current production
so you can't just buy the PCI or USB version.

I still have some Z80 based single board computers
because they're now "old enough" to become embedded systems.
Many '486 systems /could be used again/ if anyone gave a damn
to find lightweight (NON-M$) operating systems to make them
dedicated devices, such as a digital answering machine, print server, etc.

--

-- mejeep deMeep ferret!

The engineers are TOLD by the MBA accountants where to cut costs.

You've never worked for a company that manufactures stuff have you?

Marketing (NOT accounting) might provide a price-point that their research
indicates a product needs to be at to be competitive and the
design/engineering/manufacuring departments might be given a mandate to meet
that price point by top level management, but there are no "accountants" telling
anyone where to cut costs.

I believe it is you who needs to work in the real world and ignore the
fairy tales of academic circles.

In a real company, engineers are under the thumb of accountants. They
are to make whatever cuts need to be made to make the desired profit
margin. Products are manufactured with intentional end lifes and
without any possiblity of repair...all required by MBAs who have
dictated what the product life and quality will be.

It is done to extract as much of your cash as possible.

TMT

Rick Brandt wrote:
Too_Many_Tools wrote:
It is NOT a conspiracy - it is the result of accountants
over-ruling engineers. The demand is to lower costs, at any cost.
The engineers then have to decide where to cut costs.


The engineers are TOLD by the MBA accountants where to cut costs.

You've never worked for a company that manufactures stuff have you?

Marketing (NOT accounting) might provide a price-point that their research
indicates a product needs to be at to be competitive and the
design/engineering/manufacuring departments might be given a mandate to meet
that price point by top level management, but there are no "accountants" telling
anyone where to cut costs.

The main reason we don't repair modern electronic appliances is that
the cost of parts and labour to carry out the repairs is often nearly
as much (or more) than the appliance cost new. Why would anyone pay
for a repair on an item, which may be as good as new when repaired,
when a brand new item may only cost a little more. The new item also
comes with a new warranty.

YET despite that, there is still some favorable economics for
reclaiming and repairing stuff, even if it's sold as "refurbished".
I occasionally buy refurbished stuff since that means
"the parts that break first have already been replaced".
--

-- mejeep deMeep ferret!

I have a simple suggestion. Watch your neighbors' trash. When you see
them throw various equipment away, take it home and take it apart. See
if you see signs of intentionally poor design, trying to save pennies
at the huge expense of the customer, etc. See how many interchangeable
parts you see, how well made is the mechanism etc. If anything, doing
so is fun and educational.

I agree! If only the garbage collectors were to "close the loop"
and somehow report what products are failing the most
(dare I suggest that RFID tagging stuff from cradle-to-grave
could supply such data?)

I buy plastic storage containers since cardboard boxes
tend to fall apart particularly when stacked.
But some brands are /so bad/ that they're cracked and broken
WHILE STILL IN THE STORE!

I'm all for recycling but I bow to the economics that
transportation and storage may exceed the value of what's reclaimed
(yes, I've seen Penn and Teller's BULL**** show about recycling)
but there's no checks-and-balances system to correct for stores
getting credit for entire boatloads of crap that can't (or won't) be fixed.
It's not just a matter of landfill and garbage handling,
it's a lack of accountability for the merchanise that's arriving on our shores.
--

-- mejeep deMeep ferret!

Jeff Jonas wrote:

The main thing I detest with modern products is keyboards. I used
to be able to buy proper double injection moulded keyboards in the
pre PC days but they arent even buyable now even with the branded
products like Microsoft and Logitech and the stupid cheap stuck on
lettering never lasts very long at all.

I'm pleased to agree with that comment since it's on topic
and something that's near and dear to my heart.
I use my computer keyboard every day so it's not just an appliance,
it's a tool. It ought to fit my hand and operate reliably.
You'll have to pry my original IBM PS/2 space-saving keyboard
from my cold dead hands - I ain't giving' this up for anything!

The main problem there is that I need a proper modern cordless
keyboard. I compute from a deep armchair with my feet up and
have the keyboard in my lap when entering text like now.

Even the pre PC double injection moulded keyboard,
a DEC LK01, was much too heavy in that situation.

The keys FEEL RIGHT and really click, not fake springs here!
It's survived a lot of pounding and frustration
and NONE of the keycap legends are smudged.
Only recently I noticed that the matte finish has rubbed off
the left shift key and the "A" key, making the surface smooth.

Yeah, thats the only effect I ever got with those.

The keyboard has been in daily use for perhaps 10 years.

But I wouldnt go back to corded mice and keyboards again.
In spades with non optical mice either.

I favor trackballs

I dont, I prefer modern scroll wheels.

and I lament how the award-winning ergonomic ones are
not available anymore. That's not planned obsolescence
or feature-itis so much as the "race to the bottom":

Its not that so much as just that hardly anyone liked trackballs.

There is no race to the bottom with high end
cordless mice like the Logitech MX700 etc.

And they use standard AA NiMH batterys so its trivial
to replace those when that is necessary, for peanuts.

whoever sells the parts with the lowest price or highest markup wins
by slowly deleting or removing options until they're no longer available.

That isnt happening with high end cordless mice.

My Itac trackball's buttons are fully reprogrammable so
they work without any specialized drivers. Nobody else
does that in hardware, it's always part of their drivers

Which is a much more cost effective approach.

(which are a nightmare to configure & update).

Doesnt have to be.

Similarly:
- VCRs have been stripped of all their buttons so
there's no way to use them without the remote control.

Yes, because so few use those buttons and so few are
silly enough to use them even when they lose the remote.

If the remote is lost or broken, then most of the features are "lost"
because the universal remotes don't give all the original buttons.

It makes a lot more sense to have replacement remotes available
than to have the buttons on the front of the VCR itself.

- home camcorders keep losing features such as aux
mic input, which several friends require for their taping.

They can't afford the $xx,000 "professional" cameras just to get
features that are no longer included in the $x00 home versions.

- high end audio equipment is hard to get: some is no longer
made AT ANY PRICE due to Chinese products flooding the
market with lower prices and lowered expectations.

And because its such a tiny niche market now.

- similarly, the Yamaha CD burners were top rated for
reliability of mechanism and firmware. They're no longer
available thanks to market erosion to Chinese CD burners.

Reliability is irrelevant now with DVD burners so cheap.

For the home-professional, I don't care if I can buy a new CD
burner every week or every day, I need RELIABLE OPERATION
that these new disposible ones cannot provide.

Thats bull****.

I need CDs that are burned precisely to read well a week, a year or 10
years later. It's unsure if the cheapie CD burners can really achieve that :-(

Anyone with a clue burns more than one copy on
different media even with something like a Yamaha.

And similarly, the CD blanks are sometimes crap-tastic despite
all the advances in manufacturing tech that makes it possible to
create high-reliability media, if anyone's willing to pay the extra pennies.

I've never had a problem with CD blanks except one
spindle that someone else bought for me at a dollar store
which were so bad you could literally see right thru them.

All the rest have never been a problem.

And yes it IS a conspiracy....to get more of the public's money.

I'm calling you out on that one.


LOL....Electric staplers at ten paces?

It is a conspiracy.

The MBAs are working from the same play book.

Companies have consolidated to just a few...and they have combined
their operations so your selection is limited. They control what
repairs are available...if available...so the prices are fixed.

The third party repair depots...whether for your car, washer or
electronics ..... are being squeezed out of business.

And when it breaks...well ever hear of brand loyalty? People go back
and buy more junk. Ever wonder how Walmart makes its money?

And the end play....to make the consumer pay more....is being played
out well.

Ever wonder why consumer debt is at an all time high...if things are
getting cheaper, why don't you have more money instead of less?

TMT



Carl McIver wrote:
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
oups.com...

It is NOT a conspiracy - it is the result of accountants over-ruling
engineers. The demand is to lower costs, at any cost. The engineers
then have to decide where to cut costs.


The engineers are TOLD by the MBA accountants where to cut costs.

Good designs are allowed to turn to bad designs to cut a fraction of a
penny.

The sooner the product dies after warranty, the sooner the customer
will be buying another NEW item.

From their competitor? What manufacturer wants to take that chance?


As has been pointed out, the repair inventory is considered a "profit
center" which is code for gouge the customer if he wants to repair the
item.

If you have to stock, for thirty years, a part that exists only on a
small handful of machines out there, how much would that part _really_ cost
after overhead for that _entire_ period gets figured in? And since machines
change design every few years, there are simply thousands and thousands of
parts all in the same situation. It's for that reason I quit bitching about
the prices of replacement parts at car dealers. I may pay more, but I'm
assured that it will be there more so than any other source. That assurance
costs money.


And yes it IS a conspiracy....to get more of the public's money.

I'm calling you out on that one. Perhaps if all the brands and
manufacturers of appliances were consolidated so much that they _had_ to be
in cahoots, I'd be more inclined to believe you, but your appliances are
built all over the world now, by a variety of companies competing hard for
your business, not just once, but again and again, and that means that one
company with a good product will never say a word to a competitor about how
they do a better job. I certainly wouldn't, and the way to make money in
appliances is to build a better product that gives the customer the value
for the dollar they are willing to pay. Folks that want a top of the line
appliance will pay extra for the appearance of better quality, and if it can
be proved they're getting their money's worth, they'll spend even more.
What it costs me when a product fails, wastes my time, and the hassle and
frustration of resolving the situation, means far more to me than the
initial cost of a product. I've paid that price too many times, as I'm sure
we all have at one time or another, so back to the point of the most bang
for my buck is why companies competing for my precious dollar will not
conspire with each other. All it takes is for one of them to refuse to
conspire and the conspirators lose, leaving that one to earn my money.


TMT

Andrew VK3BFA wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Andrew VK3BFA wrote
William Noble wrote

nonrepairable is not the same as planned obsolescense.
A new product may be impossible to repair because it
uses custom electronics and special assembly techniques
but that doesn't mean it's planned to quit working in 3 years.

Yes it is - your wrong.

Nope.

Theres actually an engineering discipline devoted to this
subject - its called "Stress Engineering" ie how many
cycles can the door open and close before ir breaks

The reality is that that isnt done with domestic appliances.

Of course it is - if your making a million of anything, you minimise
costs to the last cent, because 1c by 1,000,000 is REAL money.

Nice theory. Have fun explaining how come the absolute vast bulk
of cellphones still have assembly screw and replaceable fronts etc.

We can put a man on the moon - is it so hard
to figure out MTBF of electronic equipment.

Pointless when the absolute vast bulk of it never fails.

And if the factory costs millions of dollars to set
up (they do) its in their best interests to keep them
running - the costs of shutting down are prohibitive.

Nope, happens all the time when technology moves on.

And, good people, if you want a new TV set,
there has NEVER been a better time to buy one.

Yes there will be with the changeover to digital TV.

LCD, Plasma are killing the conventional CRT market
- havent you wondered why they are so cheap now?
- its desperation time till new plant comes on stream
to make the new consumer toys....

Its been onstream for quite a while now.

- or, how many hours will the just adequate component get
stinking hot before it desolders itself from the circuit board.....

That aint designing it to fail just outside the warranty.

Oh? - how come PCB pads are barely adequate
for the heat dissipation of the component

Just the usual, lousy design. Nothing to do with deliberately designing
it to fail when its just outside warranty, which isnt even possible except
with microprocessor controlled devices and no one is that stupid even
with them. Completely pointless trying to do it with the pcb pad sizes.

- as far as I know, thats been taught in
engineering courses for the last 20 years.....

You dont know that the chinese 'designers' get taught that sort of thing.

ANY tech will immediately start looking
for dry joints as a first thing to do issue...

Only the ones stupid enough to be doing that sort of thing anymore.

all things that most technicians are intimately familiar
with - (their called "bread and butter" faults..).
we used to make a living from them....

They werent deliberately designed in. Just lousy design.

I beg to differ. You are saying EVERY manufacturer
on the planet has the identical "bad design" features.....

Nope, and I deny that modern electronic devices all fail that way.

and keeps on making them, model after model, year after year?.....

Even you should have noticed that the power use keeps dropping dramatically.

There's **** all in say a PC or cellphone
that is due to that alleged pcb pad problem.

the technically difficult repairs that took EONS you did
for self satisfaction and lost money on - that was ok
when there was enough of the other stuff to make a living.

The whole societal mindset has changed - most of my customers now
are "mature aged" and have the life long expectation that when thing
breaks, it gets fixed. The younger ones - don't even bother, they
EXPECT it to break soon after the warranty ends (thats BONUS time!)
and will not even think about getting it repaired....

Because it makes no sense to spend a high percentage of the cost of
a new VCR repairing an existing one. The new one gets a new warranty.

Yep. Thats why they are no repaired. I though this was why this thread got started?

Nope, this thread got started with the silly claim about planned obsolescence.

Modern manufacturing methods - them too - snap together plastic
assemblies designed for easy assembly with no thought for subsequent
servicing (hey, nuts and bolts cost MONEY) - done by unskilled, low wage
workers to whom a screwdriver is probably a complex machine tool.

And most of that stuff just doesnt fail, most obviously
with plug packs and molded power cords.

Modern circuit boards - SMD components, machine assembled,
wave soldered - give VERY high reliability due lack of "operator error"

Nope, due to the technology.

Idiot.

****wit.

The technology was partly developed to eliminate manual
operation, as well as speed/ease of assembly.

Yes, but not due to OPERATOR ERROR.

Do some research.

Go and **** yourself.

NASA figured this out in the 1960's....a huge proportion of failures were
due to poor human made solder joints - the short term cure was HRHS
certification of operators, the evolution was rigidly controlled machine operation....

Nothing to do with why its done with domestic appliances.

but again, virtually impossible to repair without specialist equipment -
fine if your in aerospace, or medical, or industrial where you have
the margins, but not domestic stuff. (and thats assuming the
complex in house LSI IC is even available - it usually isnt...)

And they hardly ever need to be repaired too.

Erk. Then whats the problem? - why are we having this discussion?

Because the stupid claim about planned obsolescence,
which clearly cant be happening when they fail so rarely.

- if its so reliable, surely servicing isn't an issue?

It isnt indeed. That means that dinosaurs like you get stuck with
the complicated failures which are completely uneconomic to fix
because you expect a first world income in return.

Taint gunna happen while ever it will always be much cheaper
to stamp out another in an asian factory with the few that do fail.

No one is silly enough to attempt to repair hard drives anymore,
because they are so cheap to stamp out in asia etc.

And the manufacturers too - theres no money in servicing, 10,000 TV
sets can be ordered, delivered to the customers distribution centre
straight off the boat all from one person sitting in front of a PC -
no warehouses, spare parts stock, skilled staff to manage the
spare parts, service data to manage, field service staff to
control, cost of running a service centre....

And those arent designed to fail just outside the warranty.

But they do.

No they dont.

3 to 5 years from a modern domestic ANYTHING is good value now....

Bull****.

or has your experience been different from the rest of us? -

Just how many of you are there between those ears ?

Same for service data - costs too much. Its easier to replace
something under warranty irrespective of the fault, crush it, and
claim it as a tax loss than maintain a service centre with skilled techs,,,,

The reality is that costs a lot less to stamp out another in the asian
factory than it can ever cost to have a first world tech fix it.

Erk (again) yes, well, thats why things dont get repaired -
so cheap to buy new ones - pity about the quality issues....

No quality issues with anything I have bought in the last few years.

Sooo - this leaves people like us - slightly demented, do it
yourselfers, who machine bits out of aluminum to replace a broken
plastic bracket (thats why I got into this bizarre metalworking
world) - people who will spend DAYS chasing a generic
replacement, who, when they see something of a similar
model in the dumpster, will rescue it to take home for spares.....

Do I complain - yeh, fer sure. Would I do anything else - no way,
I enjoy the challenge. Learning new skills, being rat cunning and
devious, figuring out how to beat the obsolescence game....its fun
(mostly) Pity it barely pays the bills - fortunately the house is paid
for, the kids are off our hands (mostly) and I dont lust after a
turbo Porsche...(now, more tools - thats different...)

And they are dirt cheap now.

That I will concede. And is not the quality the
same as all the other disposable products?

Nope, everything I have bought in the last few years has been fine quality
wise with the exception of the electric chainsaw chain tension adjuster
which they were happy to replace for free without a receipt.

And for those people out there proudly running their Bridgeport or Monarch
in their basement, they came from once prosperous factories that got
decimated by cheap modern crap. How else could you afford them?

Irrelevant to the mass market.

Its happened in my trade too - there is SO MUCH high quality test
equipment out there now, stuff I could not afford even 10 years ago.
Now I can - the companies that used it are no more, or its so cheap
to replace a "black box" that they don't need to maintain service
engineers and test gear. And in telecoms, I will grudgingly concede
that there is redundancy - but when BIG network fault happens,
theres a mad scramble to find enough techs to go out and fix it.....

Nope, because the BIG network faults are just multiple stupiditys.

((because the accountants says the new stuff is so reliable,
(they read the glossy brochures, sorta like IT people) why
do we need to pay staff in case it MIGHT break down?))

The reality is that the failure rate really is very low.

Nothing to do with any brochures.

And when my generation goes - thats it, cant
see anyone choosing to do this to make a living.

Corse they wont.

Good, you got one right.

I got it all right thanks.

Sitting at a service station console taking money for gasoline pays better.

And so do almost everything else too.

The only industries where you CAN make good money servicing a-

1.Where the machine itself costs LOTS of money,
so the repair is a small part of the cost
2.Where people are standing idle because the machine is down

Even that is arguable, an operation like that should have decent redundancy.

Rubbish.

Nope, with the hardware so cheap, its stupid not to have decent redundancy.

Any machine thats down is losing money

Wrong when there is decent redundancy.

(ask the accountants - they run things these days)

No they dont.

- and there is virtually NO REDUNDANCY,

Bull****.

even in hospital situations - next time you visit someone in
hospital, look at the calibration tag on the machines (IV drips
are a favourite)- see how long since its been serviced. Have a
look around the back - see how much dust/muck is jammed into the
air filter element on the cooling fan....(ECG's are good for this.....

Irrelevant to what happens outside hospitals redundancy wise.

BTW - I think "redundancy" has been replaced by one of those
marvelous new management speak phrases - "Just In Time"

Nope, completely different concepts.

- the premise that the supply chain functions
perfectly to avoid ANY down time.

Thanks for that completely superfluous proof that you
have never had a clue and why you got the bums rush.

Multiple redundancy is a thing we HOPE they put in nuclear
power stations, and aeroplanes -and even thats being pushed.

No hope necessary with heavy aircraft.

Civil aviation here - most commercial airliners have 3 generators,
time was if one failed, the plane was pulled from service.

Wrong.

Not now - it waits till the next "scheduled service"....
(costs money to take it out of service for "unnecessary
repairs"...and besides, the thing will fly on 1 generator....)

Wrong again.

Anyway, I just fixed a 20 yo VCR for a customer

More fool you.

- worn plastic gears not meshing. Cure - fit washer
on shaft to raise gear teeth to unworn portion.

And I will keep on doing things like this,

More fool you.

and you will keep on buying new consumer crap - whose the winner?

Me when I have enough of a clue to have replaced the VCRs with decent
modern digital TV tuner cards which will leave VCRs for dead reliability wise.

Thats it, no more from me - I am trying not to RANT....(and failing)

And making a spectacular fool of yourself in the process.

Jeff Jonas wrote:
Companies are setting up the situation that you are forced to buy
new versus repair the used applicance ...

Only partly true. Do you want to keep your computer forever? Do
you think you'd be on line here if you still had that 286 processor?

That's opening up a can of worms:
some PCs were upgradeable, with socketed CPUs and even
daughterboards for the CPU, but with raised expectations of our
computers
and evolving motherboard chipsets and faster peripherals,
it's really hard to truly salvage much from a PC
other than disks and some peripherals.

BUT: some specialized applications require the "legacy" interfaces
that are being phased out, such as custom interface cards with the
ISA interface, or RS232 serial interfaced peripherals.
There are often items that have no equivalent in current production
so you can't just buy the PCI or USB version.

I still have some Z80 based single board computers
because they're now "old enough" to become embedded systems.
Many '486 systems /could be used again/ if anyone gave a damn
to find lightweight (NON-M$) operating systems to make them
dedicated devices, such as a digital answering machine, print server, etc.

And anyone with a clue just buys a dedicated hardware router etc.

On Sun, 14 Jan 2007 21:57:51 GMT, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


On what do you base this statement? To claim that (on average) a new dryer will
only last five years is absurd. What, you once knew "a guy" who replaced a five
year old dryer? The dryer has to be one of the simplest and most reliable
things in the home. There just isn't that much to go wrong.


From dozens of relatives and friends who had major problems from 4 to 6
years. My stepmother replaced a GE washer and dryer pair that was less
than two years old because they were crap. Not much to go wrong? cheap
parts, poor designs and sloppy assembly work. Something is making noise
and you find a broken weld, sheared off bolt or bad bearing that SHOULD
NOT HAVE HAPPENED.


A prime example would be a belt tensioning pulley with a bronze bushing
in it, rather than a proper sealed bearing..and no way for the average
end user to maintain it. When the bushing wears out..the pulley needs
replacement, along with the long spring loaded rod it runs on. And when
the dryer tub bearings..simply a pair of HDDP or teflon pads wear
out..the drum starts rubbing holes in itself, or putting such a load on
the belt the belt busts

Repaired all of the above in a a couple Kennmore dryers in a 10 yr
period. Turned a new pulley out of aluminum, put in proper sealed
bearings and put in a quadruple row of skate board bearings to replace
the pads.

Could hardly hear the thing running after the repair.

oh..and using a bronze bushing for the drum support bearing..same deal.
Replaced it with a pair of cheap skate board wheels. Both have been
running at least 10 yrs since then..no issues noted.

Gunner

"Deep in her heart, every moslem woman yearns to show us her tits"
John Griffin

On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 14:40:48 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:


And yes it IS a conspiracy....to get more of the public's money.

Doesnt happen like that with the chinese products.

Just another reason why bugger all is made in
the US anymore except for stuff like aircraft etc.


Ill be sure to tell my machine shop clients that.

Gunner

"Deep in her heart, every moslem woman yearns to show us her tits"
John Griffin

Rod Speed wrote:
Andrew VK3BFA wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Andrew VK3BFA wrote
William Noble wrote


Just curious - what do you do for a living? - you seem to have an
amazing lack of knowledge across many fields - is it accountancy?. And
how do you manage to translate crayon to ascii text?

Andrew VK3BFA.

Gunner wrote:
On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 14:40:48 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:




Ill be sure to tell my machine shop clients that.

Gunner

"Deep in her heart, every moslem woman yearns to show us her tits"
John Griffin

Gee Gunner - how come your so good at the snappy reply - I get sucked
into arguing with idiots.....

Andrew VK3BFA.

Over the years, I think I've bought five battery operated drills.

No... they don't break or wear out.

It's cheaper to buy a new drill than a replacement battery.


rj

"Jeff Jonas" wrote in message
...
The main thing I detest with modern products is keyboards. I used
to be able to buy proper double injection moulded keyboards in the
pre PC days but they arent even buyable now even with the branded
produces like Microsoft and Logitech and the stupid cheap stuck on
lettering never lasts very long at all.

I'm pleased to agree with that comment since it's on topic
and something that's near and dear to my heart.
I use my computer keyboard every day so it's not just an appliance,
it's a tool. It ought to fit my hand and operate reliably.
You'll have to pry my original IBM PS/2 space-saving keyboard
from my cold dead hands - I ain't giving' this up for anything!
The keys FEEL RIGHT and really click, not fake springs here!
It's survived a lot of pounding and frustration
and NONE of the keycap legends are smudged.
Only recently I noticed that the matte finish has rubbed off
the left shift key and the "A" key, making the surface smooth.
The keyboard has been in daily use for perhaps 10 years.

Chuckle. I'm still using my 1988 or so Northgate (back when they were an
actual company, not a Pacific rim brand name) Omnikey keyboard. Yeah, it
cost me over a hundred bucks back then, but it has paid for itself several
times over. (I'm on like my 5th or 6th PC since then, of course.)When the
real Northgate went belly up, I understand somebody else bought the keyboard
line, and was selling them under another brand for awhile. No idea if they
still exist. I also have a crate of Zenith z248 keyboard, which use the same
mechanical Alps key mechanisms. (From when Zenith was still a real company,
of course.)

Luddite and proud of it.

aem sends....

"Homer J Simpson" wrote in message
news:vtEqh.149530$YV4.48886@edtnps89...
"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...

CD players have lasers that get dirty and get tossed long before the
actual laser diode is gone.

And even DVD burners are now so cheap that its just a yawn.

We've gone from an 80K floppy drive that cost $800 to a DVD burner that
can store 9 Gb and costs $35.

From an 8 Mb hard drive that cost $7,000 to a 320 Gb drive that costs
$100.

I remember getting a 20MB hard drive and being ridiculed for opulence.
"How are you EVER going to fill THAT up?" That was on a 8088 machine.
Tomes

In article k.net,
"Tomes" wrote:


I remember getting a 20MB hard drive and being ridiculed for opulence.
"How are you EVER going to fill THAT up?" That was on a 8088 machine.
Tomes

Similarly, I remember, when the 10MB Winchesters came out, wondering who
on Earth would need to store 10MB of data _on_ an internal drive? Of
course, those were the days when there wasn't much but text or binary
files and a whole big bunch of text or data files would fit on a floppy.

What was I thinking? A whole big bunch of text and data files will
_still_ fit on a floppy. It's just that floppy drives are being replaced
by inexpensive CD and DVD RW storage that store more and have better
data retention, more or less.

--
Bring back, Oh bring back
Oh, bring back that old continuity.
Bring back, oh, bring back
Oh, bring back Clerk Maxwell to me.

Too_Many_Tools wrote:

The engineers are TOLD by the MBA accountants where to cut costs.

You've never worked for a company that manufactures stuff have you?

Marketing (NOT accounting) might provide a price-point that their research
indicates a product needs to be at to be competitive and the
design/engineering/manufacuring departments might be given a mandate to meet
that price point by top level management, but there are no "accountants" telling
anyone where to cut costs.

I believe it is you who needs to work in the real world and ignore the
fairy tales of academic circles.

In a real company, engineers are under the thumb of accountants. They
are to make whatever cuts need to be made to make the desired profit
margin. Products are manufactured with intentional end lifes and
without any possiblity of repair...all required by MBAs who have
dictated what the product life and quality will be.
....

Having BTDT (for 30+ yrs) w/ several engineering/manufacturing firms
from very large to start-ups which grew until were bought by very
large, I have to agree w/ Rick here...while there are MBAs and
accountants, and they have very important functions, in none of these
places did they dictate to Engineering nor were "engineers are under
the thumb of accountants." As Rick says, where the cost-accounting
enters the design phase is in trying to make a price-point which is a
function of market niche, competition, timing, comparative product
advantage vis a vis competitors', etc., etc., etc., ... After that, it
then becomes an engineering problem of how to design, fabricate and
distribute (and support) the product. As one moves from more complex,
costly products to less expensive, the compromises to accomplish the
goal become more severe. If your product is a plastic toy to try to
sell millions, the margin per item has to be miniscule. If, otoh,
you're building a high-end anything, that is a different set of
constraints. Either way, unless the product can be designed and
manufactured and ultimately, sold for a profit, there won't be any more
company so the cost point is as important as anything else.

The point is, the manner in which it is made manifest is, in most
organizations, not a draconion "order from above" as you would imply
with an express goal to extract the pound of flesh a la a historical
vision of a Carnegie or a Vanderbilt, but an overall coordinated
approach to how to make the best corporate decisions in a competitive
economy. All information in this environment is imprecise and all
individuals making these decisions are not infallible so there are
always decisions made that aren't, in retrospect, optimal, but that
doesn't mean these decisions were made a priori to fulfill some grand
over-arching scheme. On the far extreme one _might_ be able to find a
company that tried to operate as you suggest, but I would submit it
would be an aberration in general and highly likely to not succeed in
the long run.

John Husvar wrote:

In article k.net,
"Tomes" wrote:


I remember getting a 20MB hard drive and being ridiculed for opulence.
"How are you EVER going to fill THAT up?" That was on a 8088 machine.
Tomes


Similarly, I remember, when the 10MB Winchesters came out, wondering who
on Earth would need to store 10MB of data _on_ an internal drive? Of
course, those were the days when there wasn't much but text or binary
files and a whole big bunch of text or data files would fit on a floppy.

What was I thinking? A whole big bunch of text and data files will
_still_ fit on a floppy. It's just that floppy drives are being replaced
by inexpensive CD and DVD RW storage that store more and have better
data retention, more or less.


Yea, but that's before Uncle Bill stole the idea of windows from apple
who stole it from Xerox Parc and started the world down the bunny trial
of bloat ware. Long live CP/M!

If were were all still working from the command line, the computer world
might be a much more secure place. Of course, i would be living in a
stone house with a car that used feet for motive power...

Bob



----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Too_Many_Tools wrote:

You must be the guy who draws the "Dilbert" comic strip.


No but ask any engineer....Dilbert is fact, not fiction.


No, 'Dilbert' is farce, very loosely based on a figment of reality...

That there are recognizable traits and actions is only indicative of
the state of human fraility and foibles in any field of
endeavor...while we engineers can certainly recognize events and even
individuals who may seem to match, to attribute the actions as directly
motivated as are is a deliberate act of characterization and
exaggeration. Not that there aren't plenty of mistakes made and sorry
management practices, but the difference is as noted in another
response, for the most part they're a result of the "law of unforeseen
consequences" and well-meaning decisions individually that
collectively, don't provide the desired results.

Too_Many_Tools wrote in message
ups.com...
In my opinon...no.

I intentionally try to have older appliances, vehicles, machines to
lower repair costs and keep overall ownership cost to a minimum.

Your thoughts?

TMT

Irreparable damageBy Bryce Baschuk
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
January 9, 2007
Bill Jones, after 42 years, is finally closing the Procter Appliance
Service shop in Silver Spring.
"You can't make a good salary to survive on the way you could years
ago," said the 61-year-old owner of the oven, refrigerator and
washer-dryer repair shop. "Everything has changed in the appliance
business."
Mr. Jones recently sold his home in Laurel and is in the process of
moving to Bluffton, S.C., with his wife, Jeannette.
Mr. Jones is one of the many Washington-area repairmen who have
struggled to stay afloat as residents replace, not repair, old
appliances.
"It's a dying trade," said Scott Brown, Webmaster of
www.fixitnow.com and self-proclaimed "Samurai Appliance Repairman."
The reason for this is twofold, Mr. Brown said: The cost of
appliances is coming down because of cheap overseas labor and improved
manufacturing techniques, and repairmen are literally dying off.
The average age of appliance technicians is 42, and there are few
young repairmen to take their place, said Mr. Brown, 47. He has been
repairing appliances in New Hampshire for the past 13 years.
In the next seven years, the number of veteran appliance repairmen
will decrease nationwide as current workers retire or transfer to other
occupations, the Department of Labor said in its 2007 Occupational
Outlook Handbook.
The federal agency said many prospective repairmen prefer work that
is less strenuous and want more comfortable working conditions.
Local repairmen said it is simply a question of economics.
"Nowadays appliances are cheap, so people are just getting new
ones," said Paul Singh, a manager at the Appliance Service Depot, a
repair shop in Northwest. "As a result, business has slowed down a
lot."
"The average repair cost for a household appliance is $50 to $350,"
said Shahid Rana, a service technician at Rana Refrigeration, a repair
shop in Capitol Heights. "If the repair is going to cost more than
that, we usually tell the customer to go out and buy a new one."
It's not uncommon for today's repairmen to condemn an appliance
instead of fixing it for the sake of their customers' wallets.
If they decide to repair an appliance that is likely to break down
again, repairmen are criticized by their customers and often lose
business because of a damaged reputation.
Mr. Jones said he based his repair decisions on the 50 percent
rule: "If the cost of service costs more than 50 percent of the price
of a new machine, I'll tell my customers to get a new one."
"A lot of customers want me to be honest with them, so I'll tell
them my opinion and leave the decision making up to them," he said.
In recent years, consumers have tended to buy new appliances when
existing warranties expire rather than repair old appliances, the
Department of Labor said.
Mr. Brown acknowledged this trend. "Lower-end appliances which you
can buy for $200 to $300 are basically throwaway appliances," he said.
"They are so inexpensive that you shouldn't pay to get them repaired."
"The quality of the materials that are being made aren't lasting,"
Mr. Jones said. "Nowadays you're seeing more plastic and more circuit
boards, and they aren't holding up."
Many home appliances sold in the United States are made in Taiwan,
Singapore, China and Mexico.
"Nothing is made [in the United States] anymore," Mr. Jones said.
"But then again, American parts are only better to a point, a lot of
U.S. companies are all about the dollar."
Fortunately for the next generation of repairmen, some of today's
high-end appliances make service repairs the most cost-effective
option.
The Department of Labor concurred. "Over the next decade, as more
consumers purchase higher-priced appliances designed to have much
longer lives, they will be more likely to use repair services than to
purchase new appliances," said the 2007 Occupational Outlook Handbook.
Modern, energy-efficient refrigerators can cost as much as $5,000
to $10,000, and with such a hefty price tag, throwing one away is not
an option.
In some cases, repairmen can help consumers reduce the amount of
aggravation that a broken appliance will cause.
Consider the time and effort it takes to shop for a new appliance,
wait for its delivery, remove the old one and get the new one
installed.
In addition, certain appliances such as ovens and washing machines
can be a bigger hassle to replace because they are connected to gas and
water lines.
"It takes your time, it takes your effort, and if you don't install
the new appliance, you'll have to hire a service technician to install
it anyways," Mr. Brown said.
Some consumers bond with their appliances like old pets, and for
loyalty or sentimental reasons, refuse to let them go.
Mr. Rana said some of his clients have appliances that are more
than 30 years old. It makes sense, he said. "A lot of old refrigerators
are worth fixing because they give people good service. They just don't
make things like they used to."


http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1990421,00.html

In a UK national newspaper today

--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

Sure you could. Lots of people would pay 75c for a house call.

Homer J Simpson wrote:

I used to charge 75c for a house call, when appliances were in the $100 -
$200 price range. Couldn't do it now.





--

A whole big bunch of text and data files will
_still_ fit on a floppy. It's just that floppy drives are being replaced
by inexpensive CD and DVD RW storage that store more and have better
data retention, more or less.


Better data retention? Think again.

Hard drive/tape/floppy (as in magnetic) storage have the best lifespan.

DC/DVD storage life can be measured in just a few years.

Archival storage of data is a BIG deal that the industry doesn't like
to talk about.

TMT



John Husvar wrote:
In article k.net,
"Tomes" wrote:


I remember getting a 20MB hard drive and being ridiculed for opulence.
"How are you EVER going to fill THAT up?" That was on a 8088 machine.
Tomes

Similarly, I remember, when the 10MB Winchesters came out, wondering who
on Earth would need to store 10MB of data _on_ an internal drive? Of
course, those were the days when there wasn't much but text or binary
files and a whole big bunch of text or data files would fit on a floppy.

What was I thinking? A whole big bunch of text and data files will
_still_ fit on a floppy. It's just that floppy drives are being replaced
by inexpensive CD and DVD RW storage that store more and have better
data retention, more or less.

--
Bring back, Oh bring back
Oh, bring back that old continuity.
Bring back, oh, bring back
Oh, bring back Clerk Maxwell to me.

On 15 Jan 2007 04:05:20 -0800, "Andrew VK3BFA"
wrote:


Gunner wrote:
On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 14:40:48 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote:




Ill be sure to tell my machine shop clients that.

Gunner

"Deep in her heart, every moslem woman yearns to show us her tits"
John Griffin

Gee Gunner - how come your so good at the snappy reply - I get sucked
into arguing with idiots.....

Andrew VK3BFA.


Its a knack..honed over years of having fun with idiots posting on
usenet.

Gunner..practice practice practice....
"Deep in her heart, every moslem woman yearns to show us her tits"
John Griffin

Logan, I respect your opinion but using a special case (DVD player) of
manufactured goods to prove your argument does not mean it applies to
other manufactured goods. The current DVD player situation is also an
example of market dumping.

Consumer electronics are considered to be "throw away"
electronics....and the continuing problems with their disposal is just
one of the symptoms of a larger problem with that industry segment.
Let's try saddling the manufacturers with the true cost to society and
see what the true price becomes.

You are right that "throw away" electronics are optimized for low cost
of manufacture...and those savings are not passed on to the consumer.
It is like the low cost of labor that goes into the product....it is
used to maximize profit margin....while placing the burden on society.
The savings that are passed on to the consumer are usually realized by
volume...the more you make the cheaper they get....when a number of
companies compete for your dollar.

One telling symptom is when you look at those who get in financial
trouble by overextending their credit, one of the common areas where
they have overspent is in consumer electronics.

TMT


Logan Shaw wrote:
Too_Many_Tools wrote:
In my opinon...no.

I intentionally try to have older appliances, vehicles, machines to
lower repair costs and keep overall ownership cost to a minimum.

Your thoughts?

I don't think planned obsolescence is a good thing or a bad thing,
because in most cases it's fictional. Appliances and other items
you buy aren't designed to fail. They are designed to be cheap to
manufacture.

The article you mentioned quoted a repairman saying that lots of
new devices are made with circuit boards (rather than discrete
components). There's a reason for that. Circuits built with
circuit boards and integrated circuits cost much, much less to
produce than ones made of discrete components. Probably half
as much, maybe even less than that.

I'm not sure people understand how streamlined and optimized modern
manufacturing techniques are. The reason we get all these appliances
and electronics items for so cheap is the way they are made. To me,
it is truly remarkable that you can go to the store and buy a DVD
player for $30. It might only last 2 or 3 years, but 10 years ago,
it would have cost $10,000 to build an equivalent machine (just
because of the processing power).

So the question, to me, is this: do you want to buy a new item
for $100 and have it last 5 or 10 years, or do you want to spend
$200 for it and have it last 10 or 20? My answer would be that
I'd rather have the item that costs half as much and lasts half
as long. Why? Because I can take the $100 I saved and put it
in the bank. In 5 or 10 years when the item breaks, I can take
the $100 out of the bank, and it will have grown with interest
that has outpaced inflation, so it will be worth more than $100
in inflation-adjusted dollars, and at that time, the price of the
device may have gone down to less than $100 in inflation-adjusted
dollars, and it will certainly be more up to date (more energy
efficient, better support for new media formats, smaller, whatever).

To put it a slightly different way, for that $30 DVD player, it
costs something like $10 labor and $10 materials to put that thing
together in the first place (because there are packaging and shipping
costs and profit). So how efficient is it to spend $30 labor fixing
it? It isn't efficient. Repairing mass-produced items isn't
efficient because one person working on one item and doing everything
by hand simply doesn't have the same economies of scale that a
highly-optimized manufacturing environment has.

- Logan

Andrew VK3BFA wrote:
Rod Speed wrote:
Andrew VK3BFA wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Andrew VK3BFA wrote
William Noble wrote

Just curious - what do you do for a living? - you seem to have an
amazing lack of knowledge across many fields - is it accountancy?.

Nope.

And how do you manage to translate crayon to ascii text?

Never ever could bull**** its way out of a wet paper bag.

No surprise that you got the bums rush, right out the door.

Ecnerwal wrote:
In article ,
"Rick Brandt" wrote:

This raises an apparent contradiction.

Perhaps you've not been adequately involved with your appliances to see
that there is not a contradiction, even "apparently".

The old ones were, for the most part, designed to be repairable. "This
part always breaks eventually, we'll isolate it and make it easy to
replace".

The new ones are, for the most part, designed NOT to be repairable,
and/or parts prices/availability are manipulated to render them
effectively non-economic to repair. "This part will (by design) break
about 1 year after the warranty runs out - let's put in in a monolithic
module containing all the most expensive parts of the machine." The
appliance industry would much rather sell you a new one than have you
fix the old one, and they have taken steps to ensure that only the
maddest of mad hatters will stubbornly stick to repair; and when they
do, the industry will still profit mightily due to inflated pricing. But
not making the parts at all will knock even the mad hatters into line
soon enough, so long as they keep all the parts adequately non-standard
that it's not economic for anyone to second-source them.

The same logic is driving the production of hybrid cars that are less
fuel efficient than some non-hybrid cars. When the battery pack dies in
8-10 years, the car will be junk (non-economic to repair), clearing the
way for more new car sales.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

Your comments make a lot of sense to me. My dad built our first color
TV (and repaired it...usually running down to Thrifty Drug to use their
bulb tester); he would also rebuild cars (and was self-taught). The
appliances of the past were "simpler" as were our cars. Now that most
are running via circuit boards there's no more of the replace defective
fuse or plug thing (sometimes it is though...should still try that).
I'm also one of those who prefers the non-hybrid high MPG cars (in
order: 1 Fiesta, 2 Festiva's and currently 1 Yaris) for the specific
reasons you mention.

PS...if anyone has the answer about why one of my Sunbeam self-lowering
toasters doesn't want to stop toasting without pulling the plug (aka
which part is the thermostat?)...let me know It's not my primary
Sunbeam...just one I might need to use some day.

Separate matter entirely to the mindlessly silly claim that
its even possible to design an appliance to break about a
year after the warranty runs out, with most appliances.
..

Why do you say it is impossible? When designing the product
the engineers figure the average useage of the appliance every day
and then calculate about how long it will take before a failure.
They also do product reliability testing to see how long on average it is
before a product fails. Many times they use methods for speeding up
the process, ex acid or amplified sunlight.


And even the stuff which can be designed to do that like
the stuff with microprocessor control that can certainly
be programmed to do that, no one is actually THAT stupid

If I remember correctly I read about a certain laser printer on this group
that would stop functioning after it prited a certain amount of pages. It
had to
have a reset button pushed on its mainboard before it would start working
agian.
I don't know this to be a fact since I've never experineced this myself
though.

- Mike

Michael Kennedy wrote:

Separate matter entirely to the mindlessly silly claim that
its even possible to design an appliance to break about a
year after the warranty runs out, with most appliances.

Why do you say it is impossible?

Because it is impossible ? Novel concept I realise.

When designing the product the engineers figure the average useage of the appliance every day and
then calculate about how long it will take before a failure.

Nice theory. The reality is that that isnt even
possible with most domestic appliances.

It isnt even feasible with stuff as basic as an incandescent light bulb.
A CFL in spades. A moulded power cord or plug pack in spades.

They also do product reliability testing to see how long on average it is before a product fails.

No they dont with domestic appliances.

They dont even do that with mass market hard drives anymore.

Many times they use methods for speeding up the process, ex acid or amplified sunlight.

Not with domestic appliances they dont.

And even the stuff which can be designed to do that like
the stuff with microprocessor control that can certainly
be programmed to do that, no one is actually THAT stupid

If I remember correctly I read about a certain laser printer on this group that would stop
functioning after it prited a certain amount of pages.

Not in the sense that it will never work again and you need a new one.

It had to have a reset button pushed on its mainboard before it would start working agian. I don't
know this to be a fact since I've never experineced this myself though.

That is done with copier etc too, but thats nothing
like the planned obsolescence being discussed.

"Rod Speed" writes:
terry wrote
Although recent discussion/discovery that IPods will
exhaust their batteries in approximately one to two
years do clearly raise the question? "Designed to fail?".

Doesnt explain stuff like cordless phones that use standard batterys.

What explains the electric toothbrushes that don't have
replaceable batteries? You have to toss a $60-$120
device just because a $5 battery has failed.

Is that why my dishwasher died after 8 years and it was cheaper to buy a new
one than to repair the old? Our previous one lasted 22 years without
hiccup. Was still running but the tub rusted out and started leaking...


"Ecnerwal" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Rick Brandt" wrote:

This raises an apparent contradiction.

Perhaps you've not been adequately involved with your appliances to see
that there is not a contradiction, even "apparently".

The old ones were, for the most part, designed to be repairable. "This
part always breaks eventually, we'll isolate it and make it easy to
replace".

The new ones are, for the most part, designed NOT to be repairable,
and/or parts prices/availability are manipulated to render them
effectively non-economic to repair. "This part will (by design) break
about 1 year after the warranty runs out - let's put in in a monolithic
module containing all the most expensive parts of the machine." The
appliance industry would much rather sell you a new one than have you
fix the old one, and they have taken steps to ensure that only the
maddest of mad hatters will stubbornly stick to repair; and when they
do, the industry will still profit mightily due to inflated pricing. But
not making the parts at all will knock even the mad hatters into line
soon enough, so long as they keep all the parts adequately non-standard
that it's not economic for anyone to second-source them.

The same logic is driving the production of hybrid cars that are less
fuel efficient than some non-hybrid cars. When the battery pack dies in
8-10 years, the car will be junk (non-economic to repair), clearing the
way for more new car sales.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

Having BTDT (for 30+ yrs) w/ several engineering/manufacturing firms
from very large to start-ups which grew until were bought by very
large, I have to agree w/ Rick here...while there are MBAs and
accountants, and they have very important functions, in none of these
places did they dictate to Engineering nor were "engineers are under
the thumb of accountants." As Rick says, where the cost-accounting
enters the design phase is in trying to make a price-point which is a
function of market niche, competition, timing, comparative product
advantage vis a vis competitors', etc., etc., etc., ... After that, it
then becomes an engineering problem of how to design, fabricate and
distribute (and support) the product. As one moves from more complex,
costly products to less expensive, the compromises to accomplish the
goal become more severe. If your product is a plastic toy to try to
sell millions, the margin per item has to be miniscule. If, otoh,
you're building a high-end anything, that is a different set of
constraints. Either way, unless the product can be designed and
manufactured and ultimately, sold for a profit, there won't be any more
company so the cost point is as important as anything else.


While I respect your opinion, it sounds like you are reading straight
from a textbook.

After decades in manufacturing, I can tell you that I have never seen
it work that way.

Reality is much different than the academic BS model....see Dilbert for
a real life reference.

Ever wonder why Dilbert and the television show "The Office" are so
popular...because they are so true.

What you neatly gross over is what happens when engineering says it
can't make a product based on the imaginary price point...who then
decides?

I will give you a hint....it ain't engineering.

And did I mention that the CEO's bonus is tied to this product?

In the end, a company will produce the cheapest junk that it can
sell...and it will work very hard to insure that the consumer needs to
buy another new one from them...and have to get any and all support
from them. It is all about separating the consumer from as much of
their money as painlessly as possible.

And that is called a conspiracy.

TMT


dpb wrote:
Too_Many_Tools wrote:

The engineers are TOLD by the MBA accountants where to cut costs.

You've never worked for a company that manufactures stuff have you?

Marketing (NOT accounting) might provide a price-point that their research
indicates a product needs to be at to be competitive and the
design/engineering/manufacuring departments might be given a mandate to meet
that price point by top level management, but there are no "accountants" telling
anyone where to cut costs.

I believe it is you who needs to work in the real world and ignore the
fairy tales of academic circles.

In a real company, engineers are under the thumb of accountants. They
are to make whatever cuts need to be made to make the desired profit
margin. Products are manufactured with intentional end lifes and
without any possiblity of repair...all required by MBAs who have
dictated what the product life and quality will be.
...

Having BTDT (for 30+ yrs) w/ several engineering/manufacturing firms
from very large to start-ups which grew until were bought by very
large, I have to agree w/ Rick here...while there are MBAs and
accountants, and they have very important functions, in none of these
places did they dictate to Engineering nor were "engineers are under
the thumb of accountants." As Rick says, where the cost-accounting
enters the design phase is in trying to make a price-point which is a
function of market niche, competition, timing, comparative product
advantage vis a vis competitors', etc., etc., etc., ... After that, it
then becomes an engineering problem of how to design, fabricate and
distribute (and support) the product. As one moves from more complex,
costly products to less expensive, the compromises to accomplish the
goal become more severe. If your product is a plastic toy to try to
sell millions, the margin per item has to be miniscule. If, otoh,
you're building a high-end anything, that is a different set of
constraints. Either way, unless the product can be designed and
manufactured and ultimately, sold for a profit, there won't be any more
company so the cost point is as important as anything else.

The point is, the manner in which it is made manifest is, in most
organizations, not a draconion "order from above" as you would imply
with an express goal to extract the pound of flesh a la a historical
vision of a Carnegie or a Vanderbilt, but an overall coordinated
approach to how to make the best corporate decisions in a competitive
economy. All information in this environment is imprecise and all
individuals making these decisions are not infallible so there are
always decisions made that aren't, in retrospect, optimal, but that
doesn't mean these decisions were made a priori to fulfill some grand
over-arching scheme. On the far extreme one _might_ be able to find a
company that tried to operate as you suggest, but I would submit it
would be an aberration in general and highly likely to not succeed in
the long run.

No, 'Dilbert' is farce, very loosely based on a figment of reality...


No...Dilbert is a real life expose as to how companies are run
everyday.

At every company I have worked over the years, it has taken only hours
to note which individuals would be right at home in the Dilbert
cartoon.

Try watching "The Office" for a few weeks and notice how you soon the
same qualities at your workplace.

It's Corporate America and they don't have a sense of humor since they
would have to laugh at themselves.

TMT
dpb wrote:
Too_Many_Tools wrote:

You must be the guy who draws the "Dilbert" comic strip.


No but ask any engineer....Dilbert is fact, not fiction.


No, 'Dilbert' is farce, very loosely based on a figment of reality...

That there are recognizable traits and actions is only indicative of
the state of human fraility and foibles in any field of
endeavor...while we engineers can certainly recognize events and even
individuals who may seem to match, to attribute the actions as directly
motivated as are is a deliberate act of characterization and
exaggeration. Not that there aren't plenty of mistakes made and sorry
management practices, but the difference is as noted in another
response, for the most part they're a result of the "law of unforeseen
consequences" and well-meaning decisions individually that
collectively, don't provide the desired results.

In terms of energy efficiency, many new electronics are more energy
gluttons than the old ones they replace.

Many electronics today have "always on" features where they
continuously draw current even when shut off. Couple this with others
who use wall transformers that continuously draw current. If one wishes
to reduce your energy bill, the first thing you need to do is remove
all these parasitic power users. The irony is those of us who are
serious about cutting our power bills seek out the older electronics
because they do not siphon power when not used.

It is true that some refrigerators, freezers and air conditioners are
more efficient but you also need to consider the depreciation cost of
your money when replacing the unit. The push to replace older
appliances is a push to sell new ones and for power companies not to
have to build new power plants....it is not about you saving money.

TMT

Tracey wrote:
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
ups.com...
In my opinon...no.

I intentionally try to have older appliances, vehicles, machines to
lower repair costs and keep overall ownership cost to a minimum.

Your thoughts?

One thing that you might not have considered is Energy Efficiency. Sure,
your refrigerator from 1950 might appear to be working fabulously. However,
it probably costs an awful lot more in electricity to operate it than a
newer model would cost. Likewise with your hot water heater, oven,
diswasher, washing machine, etc.

Its just something else to keep in mind...

In article om,
says...

No, 'Dilbert' is farce, very loosely based on a figment of reality...


No...Dilbert is a real life expose as to how companies are run
everyday.

At every company I have worked over the years, it has taken only hours
to note which individuals would be right at home in the Dilbert
cartoon.

Try watching "The Office" for a few weeks and notice how you soon the
same qualities at your workplace.

Indeed! I'm celebrating my 28th year in Corporate America this month
and I've seen virtually every character from 'The Office' in every
one of the dozen or so corporations I've worked in over those years.

Yes, even Dwight.

Try watching "The Office" for a few weeks and notice how you soon the
same qualities at your workplace.

Indeed! I'm celebrating my 28th year in Corporate America this month
and I've seen virtually every character from 'The Office' in every
one of the dozen or so corporations I've worked in over those years.

Yes, even Dwight.

LOL...Especially Dwight...many times over.

TMT

Mike Hartigan wrote:
In article om,
says...

No, 'Dilbert' is farce, very loosely based on a figment of reality...


No...Dilbert is a real life expose as to how companies are run
everyday.

At every company I have worked over the years, it has taken only hours
to note which individuals would be right at home in the Dilbert
cartoon.

Try watching "The Office" for a few weeks and notice how you soon the
same qualities at your workplace.

Indeed! I'm celebrating my 28th year in Corporate America this month
and I've seen virtually every character from 'The Office' in every
one of the dozen or so corporations I've worked in over those years.

Yes, even Dwight.

Everett M. Greene wrote
Rod Speed writes
terry wrote

Although recent discussion/discovery that IPods will
exhaust their batteries in approximately one to two
years do clearly raise the question? "Designed to fail?".

Doesnt explain stuff like cordless phones that use standard batterys.

What explains the electric toothbrushes that don't have replaceable batteries?

Its harder to design something as compact as that with standard replaceable batterys.

ipods too.

You have to toss a $60-$120 device just because a $5 battery has failed.

Indeed.

Too_Many_Tools wrote:
Having BTDT (for 30+ yrs) w/ several engineering/manufacturing firms
from very large to start-ups which grew until were bought by very
large, I have to agree w/ Rick here...while there are MBAs and
accountants, and they have very important functions, in none of these
places did they dictate to Engineering nor were "engineers are under
the thumb of accountants." As Rick says, where the cost-accounting
enters the design phase is in trying to make a price-point which is a
function of market niche, competition, timing, comparative product
advantage vis a vis competitors', etc., etc., etc., ... After that,
it then becomes an engineering problem of how to design, fabricate
and distribute (and support) the product. As one moves from more
complex, costly products to less expensive, the compromises to
accomplish the goal become more severe. If your product is a
plastic toy to try to sell millions, the margin per item has to be
miniscule. If, otoh, you're building a high-end anything, that is a
different set of constraints. Either way, unless the product can be
designed and manufactured and ultimately, sold for a profit, there
won't be any more company so the cost point is as important as
anything else.

While I respect your opinion, it sounds like you are reading straight
from a textbook.

After decades in manufacturing, I can tell you that I have never seen
it work that way.

Reality is much different than the academic BS model....see Dilbert
for a real life reference.

Nothing like real life.

Ever wonder why Dilbert and the television show
"The Office" are so popular...because they are so true.

Nope, because they exaggerate what really happens.

That is what caricatures have always been about.

What you neatly gross over is what happens when
engineering says it can't make a product based on
the imaginary price point...who then decides?

Its never that black and white either.

I will give you a hint....it ain't engineering.

It aint the bean counters either if it isnt possible, stupid.

And did I mention that the CEO's bonus is tied to this product?

No it isnt.

In the end, a company will produce the cheapest junk that it can sell...

Have fun explaining ipods and countless other products.

The real world is nothing like as black and white as you claim.

and it will work very hard to insure that the consumer
needs to buy another new one from them...

Having it not last long is a hopeless way of doing that.

and have to get any and all support from them.

Plenty avoid products like that.

It is all about separating the consumer from as
much of their money as painlessly as possible.

Its never that black and white either.

And that is called a conspiracy.

Wrong again, its you silly little 'planned obsolescence'
thats a conspiracy, if it was actually possible.


dpb wrote:
Too_Many_Tools wrote:

The engineers are TOLD by the MBA accountants where to cut costs.

You've never worked for a company that manufactures stuff have you?

Marketing (NOT accounting) might provide a price-point that their
research indicates a product needs to be at to be competitive and
the design/engineering/manufacuring departments might be given a
mandate to meet that price point by top level management, but
there are no "accountants" telling anyone where to cut costs.

I believe it is you who needs to work in the real world and ignore
the fairy tales of academic circles.

In a real company, engineers are under the thumb of accountants.
They are to make whatever cuts need to be made to make the desired
profit margin. Products are manufactured with intentional end lifes
and without any possiblity of repair...all required by MBAs who have
dictated what the product life and quality will be.
...

Having BTDT (for 30+ yrs) w/ several engineering/manufacturing firms
from very large to start-ups which grew until were bought by very
large, I have to agree w/ Rick here...while there are MBAs and
accountants, and they have very important functions, in none of these
places did they dictate to Engineering nor were "engineers are under
the thumb of accountants." As Rick says, where the cost-accounting
enters the design phase is in trying to make a price-point which is a
function of market niche, competition, timing, comparative product
advantage vis a vis competitors', etc., etc., etc., ... After that,
it then becomes an engineering problem of how to design, fabricate
and distribute (and support) the product. As one moves from more
complex, costly products to less expensive, the compromises to
accomplish the goal become more severe. If your product is a
plastic toy to try to sell millions, the margin per item has to be
miniscule. If, otoh, you're building a high-end anything, that is a
different set of constraints. Either way, unless the product can be
designed and manufactured and ultimately, sold for a profit, there
won't be any more company so the cost point is as important as
anything else.

The point is, the manner in which it is made manifest is, in most
organizations, not a draconion "order from above" as you would imply
with an express goal to extract the pound of flesh a la a historical
vision of a Carnegie or a Vanderbilt, but an overall coordinated
approach to how to make the best corporate decisions in a competitive
economy. All information in this environment is imprecise and all
individuals making these decisions are not infallible so there are
always decisions made that aren't, in retrospect, optimal, but that
doesn't mean these decisions were made a priori to fulfill some grand
over-arching scheme. On the far extreme one _might_ be able to find
a company that tried to operate as you suggest, but I would submit it
would be an aberration in general and highly likely to not succeed in
the long run.