Rod Speed wrote:
Andrew VK3BFA wrote
William Noble wrote

nonrepairable is not the same as planned obsolescense.
A new product may be impossible to repair because it
uses custom electronics and special assembly techniques
but that doesn't mean it's planned to quit working in 3 years.

Yes it is - your wrong.

Nope.

Theres actually an engineering discipline devoted to this
subject - its called "Stress Engineering" ie how many
cycles can the door open and close before ir breaks

The reality is that that isnt done with domestic appliances.

Of course it is - if your making a million of anything, you minimise
costs to the last cent, because 1c by 1,000,000 is REAL money. We can
put a man on the moon - is it so hard to figure out MTBF of electronic
equipment. And if the factory costs millions of dollars to set up
(they do) its in their best interests to keep them running - the costs
of shutting down are prohibitive.

And, good people, if you want a new TV set, there has NEVER been a
better time to buy one. LCD, Plasma are killing the conventional CRT
market - havent you wondered why they are so cheap now? - its
desperation time till new plant comes on stream to make the new
consumer toys....

- or, how many hours will the just adequate component get
stinking hot before it desolders itself from the circuit board.....

That aint designing it to fail just outside the warranty.

Oh? - how come PCB pads are barely adequate for the heat dissipation of
the component - as far as I know, thats been taught in engineering
courses for the last 20 years.....ANY tech will immediately start
looking for dry joints as a first thing to do issue...

all things that most technicians are intimately familiar
with - (their called "bread and butter" faults..).
we used to make a living from them....

They werent deliberately designed in. Just lousy design.

I beg to differ. You are saying EVERY manufacturer on the planet has
the identical "bad design" features.....and keeps on making them, model
after model, year after year?.....

the technically difficult repairs that took EONS you did
for self satisfaction and lost money on - that was ok
when there was enough of the other stuff to make a living.

The whole societal mindset has changed - most of my customers now
are "mature aged" and have the life long expectation that when thing
breaks, it gets fixed. The younger ones - don't even bother, they
EXPECT it to break soon after the warranty ends (thats BONUS time!)
and will not even think about getting it repaired....

Because it makes not sense to spend a high percentage of the cost of
a new VCR repairing an existing one. The new one gets a new warranty.

Yep. Thats why they are no repaired. I though this was why this thread
got started?


Modern manufacturing methods - them too - snap together plastic
assemblies designed for easy assembly with no thought for subsequent
servicing (hey, nuts and bolts cost MONEY) - done by unskilled, low
wage workers to whom a screwdriver is probably a complex machine tool.

And most of that stuff just doesnt fail, most obviously
with plug packs and molded power cords.

Modern circuit boards - SMD components, machine assembled,
wave soldered - give VERY high reliability due lack of "operator error"

Nope, due to the technology.

Idiot. The technology was partly developed to eliminate manual
operation, as well as speed/ease of assembly. Do some research. NASA
figured this out in the 1960's....a huge proportion of failures were
due to poor human made solder joints - the short term cure was HRHS
certification of operators, the evolution was rigidly controlled
machine operation....

but again, virtually impossible to repair without specialist equipment -
fine if your in aerospace, or medical, or industrial where you have
the margins, but not domestic stuff. (and thats assuming the
complex in house LSI IC is even available - it usually isnt...)

And they hardly ever need to be repaired too.

Erk. Then whats the problem? - why are we having this discussion? - if
its so reliable, surely servicing isn't an issue?


And the manufacturers too - theres no money in servicing, 10,000 TV
sets can be ordered, delivered to the customers distribution centre
straight off the boat all from one person sitting in front of a PC -
no warehouses, spare parts stock, skilled staff to manage the
spare parts, service data to manage, field service staff to
control, cost of running a service centre....

And those arent designed to fail just outside the warranty.

But they do. 3 to 5 years from a modern domestic ANYTHING is good value
now....or has your experience been different from the rest of us? -

Same for service data - costs too much. Its easier to replace
something under warranty irrespective of the fault, crush it, and
claim it as a tax loss than maintain a service centre with skilled techs,,,,

The reality is that costs a lot less to stamp out another in the
asian factory than it can ever cost to have a first world tech fix it.

Erk (again) yes, well, thats why things dont get repaired - so cheap to
buy new ones - pity about the quality issues....

Sooo - this leaves people like us - slightly demented, do it
yourselfers, who machine bits out of aluminum to replace a broken
plastic bracket (thats why I got into this bizarre metalworking world)
- people who will spend DAYS chasing a generic replacement, who,
when they see something of a similar model in the dumpster, will
rescue it to take home for spares.....

Do I complain - yeh, fer sure. Would I do anything else - no way,
I enjoy the challenge. Learning new skills, being rat cunning and
devious, figuring out how to beat the obsolescence game....its fun
(mostly) Pity it barely pays the bills - fortunately the house is paid
for, the kids are off our hands (mostly) and I dont lust after a turbo
Porsche...(now, more tools - thats different...)

And they are dirt cheap now.

That I will concede. And is not the quality the same as all the other
disposable products? And for those people out there proudly running
their Bridgeport or Monarch in their basement, they came from once
prosperous factories that got decimated by cheap modern crap. How else
could you afford them?

Its happened in my trade too - there is SO MUCH high quality test
equipment out there now, stuff I could not afford even 10 years ago.
Now I can - the companies that used it are no more, or its so cheap to
replace a "black box" that they don't need to maintain service
engineers and test gear. And in telecoms, I will grudgingly concede
that there is redundancy - but when BIG network fault happens, theres
a mad scramble to find enough techs to go out and fix it.....((because
the accountants says the new stuff is so reliable, (they read the
glossy brochures, sorta like IT people) why do we need to pay staff in
case it MIGHT break down?))



And when my generation goes - thats it, cant
see anyone choosing to do this to make a living.

Corse they wont.

Good, you got one right.

Sitting at a service station console taking money for gasoline pays better.

And so do almost everything else too.

The only industries where you CAN make good money servicing a-

1.Where the machine itself costs LOTS of money,
so the repair is a small part of the cost
2.Where people are standing idle because the machine is down

Even that is arguable, an operation like that should have decent redundancy.

Rubbish. Any machine thats down is losing money (ask the accountants -
they run things these days) - and there is virtually NO REDUNDANCY,
even in hospital situations - next time you visit someone in hospital,
look at the calibration tag on the machines (IV drips are a favourite)-
see how long since its been serviced. Have a look around the back - see
how much dust/muck is jammed into the air filter element on the cooling
fan....(ECG's are good for this.....

BTW - I think "redundancy" has been replaced by one of those marvelous
new management speak phrases - "Just In Time" - the premise that the
supply chain functions perfectly to avoid ANY down time.

Multiple redundancy is a thing we HOPE they put in nuclear power
stations, and aeroplanes -and even thats being pushed. Civil aviation
here - most commercial airliners have 3 generators, time was if one
failed, the plane was pulled from service. Not now - it waits till the
next "scheduled service"....(costs money to take it out of service for
"unnecessary repairs"...and besides, the thing will fly on 1
generator....)

Anyway, I just fixed a 20 yo VCR for a customer - worn plastic gears
not meshing. Cure - fit washer on shaft to raise gear teeth to unworn
portion.

And I will keep on doing things like this, and you will keep on buying
new consumer crap - whose the winner?

Andrew VK3BFA.

Thats it, no more from me - I am trying not to RANT....(and failing)



3 There is some sort of "voodoo mystique" about it (medical is a good example)

Ah, that feels SO much better ..........

Andrew VK3BFA.