Andrew VK3BFA wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Andrew VK3BFA wrote
William Noble wrote

nonrepairable is not the same as planned obsolescense.
A new product may be impossible to repair because it
uses custom electronics and special assembly techniques
but that doesn't mean it's planned to quit working in 3 years.

Yes it is - your wrong.

Nope.

Theres actually an engineering discipline devoted to this
subject - its called "Stress Engineering" ie how many
cycles can the door open and close before ir breaks

The reality is that that isnt done with domestic appliances.

Of course it is - if your making a million of anything, you minimise
costs to the last cent, because 1c by 1,000,000 is REAL money.

Nice theory. Have fun explaining how come the absolute vast bulk
of cellphones still have assembly screw and replaceable fronts etc.

We can put a man on the moon - is it so hard
to figure out MTBF of electronic equipment.

Pointless when the absolute vast bulk of it never fails.

And if the factory costs millions of dollars to set
up (they do) its in their best interests to keep them
running - the costs of shutting down are prohibitive.

Nope, happens all the time when technology moves on.

And, good people, if you want a new TV set,
there has NEVER been a better time to buy one.

Yes there will be with the changeover to digital TV.

LCD, Plasma are killing the conventional CRT market
- havent you wondered why they are so cheap now?
- its desperation time till new plant comes on stream
to make the new consumer toys....

Its been onstream for quite a while now.

- or, how many hours will the just adequate component get
stinking hot before it desolders itself from the circuit board.....

That aint designing it to fail just outside the warranty.

Oh? - how come PCB pads are barely adequate
for the heat dissipation of the component

Just the usual, lousy design. Nothing to do with deliberately designing
it to fail when its just outside warranty, which isnt even possible except
with microprocessor controlled devices and no one is that stupid even
with them. Completely pointless trying to do it with the pcb pad sizes.

- as far as I know, thats been taught in
engineering courses for the last 20 years.....

You dont know that the chinese 'designers' get taught that sort of thing.

ANY tech will immediately start looking
for dry joints as a first thing to do issue...

Only the ones stupid enough to be doing that sort of thing anymore.

all things that most technicians are intimately familiar
with - (their called "bread and butter" faults..).
we used to make a living from them....

They werent deliberately designed in. Just lousy design.

I beg to differ. You are saying EVERY manufacturer
on the planet has the identical "bad design" features.....

Nope, and I deny that modern electronic devices all fail that way.

and keeps on making them, model after model, year after year?.....

Even you should have noticed that the power use keeps dropping dramatically.

There's **** all in say a PC or cellphone
that is due to that alleged pcb pad problem.

the technically difficult repairs that took EONS you did
for self satisfaction and lost money on - that was ok
when there was enough of the other stuff to make a living.

The whole societal mindset has changed - most of my customers now
are "mature aged" and have the life long expectation that when thing
breaks, it gets fixed. The younger ones - don't even bother, they
EXPECT it to break soon after the warranty ends (thats BONUS time!)
and will not even think about getting it repaired....

Because it makes no sense to spend a high percentage of the cost of
a new VCR repairing an existing one. The new one gets a new warranty.

Yep. Thats why they are no repaired. I though this was why this thread got started?

Nope, this thread got started with the silly claim about planned obsolescence.

Modern manufacturing methods - them too - snap together plastic
assemblies designed for easy assembly with no thought for subsequent
servicing (hey, nuts and bolts cost MONEY) - done by unskilled, low wage
workers to whom a screwdriver is probably a complex machine tool.

And most of that stuff just doesnt fail, most obviously
with plug packs and molded power cords.

Modern circuit boards - SMD components, machine assembled,
wave soldered - give VERY high reliability due lack of "operator error"

Nope, due to the technology.

Idiot.

****wit.

The technology was partly developed to eliminate manual
operation, as well as speed/ease of assembly.

Yes, but not due to OPERATOR ERROR.

Do some research.

Go and **** yourself.

NASA figured this out in the 1960's....a huge proportion of failures were
due to poor human made solder joints - the short term cure was HRHS
certification of operators, the evolution was rigidly controlled machine operation....

Nothing to do with why its done with domestic appliances.

but again, virtually impossible to repair without specialist equipment -
fine if your in aerospace, or medical, or industrial where you have
the margins, but not domestic stuff. (and thats assuming the
complex in house LSI IC is even available - it usually isnt...)

And they hardly ever need to be repaired too.

Erk. Then whats the problem? - why are we having this discussion?

Because the stupid claim about planned obsolescence,
which clearly cant be happening when they fail so rarely.

- if its so reliable, surely servicing isn't an issue?

It isnt indeed. That means that dinosaurs like you get stuck with
the complicated failures which are completely uneconomic to fix
because you expect a first world income in return.

Taint gunna happen while ever it will always be much cheaper
to stamp out another in an asian factory with the few that do fail.

No one is silly enough to attempt to repair hard drives anymore,
because they are so cheap to stamp out in asia etc.

And the manufacturers too - theres no money in servicing, 10,000 TV
sets can be ordered, delivered to the customers distribution centre
straight off the boat all from one person sitting in front of a PC -
no warehouses, spare parts stock, skilled staff to manage the
spare parts, service data to manage, field service staff to
control, cost of running a service centre....

And those arent designed to fail just outside the warranty.

But they do.

No they dont.

3 to 5 years from a modern domestic ANYTHING is good value now....

Bull****.

or has your experience been different from the rest of us? -

Just how many of you are there between those ears ?

Same for service data - costs too much. Its easier to replace
something under warranty irrespective of the fault, crush it, and
claim it as a tax loss than maintain a service centre with skilled techs,,,,

The reality is that costs a lot less to stamp out another in the asian
factory than it can ever cost to have a first world tech fix it.

Erk (again) yes, well, thats why things dont get repaired -
so cheap to buy new ones - pity about the quality issues....

No quality issues with anything I have bought in the last few years.

Sooo - this leaves people like us - slightly demented, do it
yourselfers, who machine bits out of aluminum to replace a broken
plastic bracket (thats why I got into this bizarre metalworking
world) - people who will spend DAYS chasing a generic
replacement, who, when they see something of a similar
model in the dumpster, will rescue it to take home for spares.....

Do I complain - yeh, fer sure. Would I do anything else - no way,
I enjoy the challenge. Learning new skills, being rat cunning and
devious, figuring out how to beat the obsolescence game....its fun
(mostly) Pity it barely pays the bills - fortunately the house is paid
for, the kids are off our hands (mostly) and I dont lust after a
turbo Porsche...(now, more tools - thats different...)

And they are dirt cheap now.

That I will concede. And is not the quality the
same as all the other disposable products?

Nope, everything I have bought in the last few years has been fine quality
wise with the exception of the electric chainsaw chain tension adjuster
which they were happy to replace for free without a receipt.

And for those people out there proudly running their Bridgeport or Monarch
in their basement, they came from once prosperous factories that got
decimated by cheap modern crap. How else could you afford them?

Irrelevant to the mass market.

Its happened in my trade too - there is SO MUCH high quality test
equipment out there now, stuff I could not afford even 10 years ago.
Now I can - the companies that used it are no more, or its so cheap
to replace a "black box" that they don't need to maintain service
engineers and test gear. And in telecoms, I will grudgingly concede
that there is redundancy - but when BIG network fault happens,
theres a mad scramble to find enough techs to go out and fix it.....

Nope, because the BIG network faults are just multiple stupiditys.

((because the accountants says the new stuff is so reliable,
(they read the glossy brochures, sorta like IT people) why
do we need to pay staff in case it MIGHT break down?))

The reality is that the failure rate really is very low.

Nothing to do with any brochures.

And when my generation goes - thats it, cant
see anyone choosing to do this to make a living.

Corse they wont.

Good, you got one right.

I got it all right thanks.

Sitting at a service station console taking money for gasoline pays better.

And so do almost everything else too.

The only industries where you CAN make good money servicing a-

1.Where the machine itself costs LOTS of money,
so the repair is a small part of the cost
2.Where people are standing idle because the machine is down

Even that is arguable, an operation like that should have decent redundancy.

Rubbish.

Nope, with the hardware so cheap, its stupid not to have decent redundancy.

Any machine thats down is losing money

Wrong when there is decent redundancy.

(ask the accountants - they run things these days)

No they dont.

- and there is virtually NO REDUNDANCY,

Bull****.

even in hospital situations - next time you visit someone in
hospital, look at the calibration tag on the machines (IV drips
are a favourite)- see how long since its been serviced. Have a
look around the back - see how much dust/muck is jammed into the
air filter element on the cooling fan....(ECG's are good for this.....

Irrelevant to what happens outside hospitals redundancy wise.

BTW - I think "redundancy" has been replaced by one of those
marvelous new management speak phrases - "Just In Time"

Nope, completely different concepts.

- the premise that the supply chain functions
perfectly to avoid ANY down time.

Thanks for that completely superfluous proof that you
have never had a clue and why you got the bums rush.

Multiple redundancy is a thing we HOPE they put in nuclear
power stations, and aeroplanes -and even thats being pushed.

No hope necessary with heavy aircraft.

Civil aviation here - most commercial airliners have 3 generators,
time was if one failed, the plane was pulled from service.

Wrong.

Not now - it waits till the next "scheduled service"....
(costs money to take it out of service for "unnecessary
repairs"...and besides, the thing will fly on 1 generator....)

Wrong again.

Anyway, I just fixed a 20 yo VCR for a customer

More fool you.

- worn plastic gears not meshing. Cure - fit washer
on shaft to raise gear teeth to unworn portion.

And I will keep on doing things like this,

More fool you.

and you will keep on buying new consumer crap - whose the winner?

Me when I have enough of a clue to have replaced the VCRs with decent
modern digital TV tuner cards which will leave VCRs for dead reliability wise.

Thats it, no more from me - I am trying not to RANT....(and failing)

And making a spectacular fool of yourself in the process.