I am extending the ground for the service panel with two 8' rods because the
pipes were re-done in PVC. I plan to attach #4 wire to the end of the
existing #6 wire with two copper split-bolt connectors and make the
connection real tight. I have been reading that the copper ground wire
should be one continuous wire. However I pefer not to mess with high
voltage and take apart the service panel to make it one continuous ground
wire. Are the split bolt connectors sufficient or is there some "physics"
reason it must be one wire? Or is it to prevent someone from accidentally
un-screwing the bolt?

Fpbear II wrote:
I am extending the ground for the service panel with two 8' rods because the
pipes were re-done in PVC. I plan to attach #4 wire to the end of the
existing #6 wire with two copper split-bolt connectors and make the
connection real tight. I have been reading that the copper ground wire
should be one continuous wire. However I pefer not to mess with high
voltage and take apart the service panel to make it one continuous ground
wire. Are the split bolt connectors sufficient or is there some "physics"
reason it must be one wire? Or is it to prevent someone from accidentally
un-screwing the bolt?




One continuous conductor, unless spliced with an irreversible connections
such as an exothermic weld (solder is not good enough). Do you have access
to a good torch? I would use a split bolt connector and then after
tightening it braze shut it with 40% silver solder. Solid #6 wire should
be enough; no need to use #4 unless the wire is subject to being damaged by
a lawn mower or something.

Bob

Thank you Bob, I'll braze the split bolt connector. I have a torch that I
used years ago to fix a copper water pipe. I don't remember how to solder
with it but I think I can find some crash course on the net. Still a bit
curious how this affects the physical properties of the electricity running
through the wire.


"zxcvbob" wrote in message
...

One continuous conductor, unless spliced with an irreversible connections
such as an exothermic weld (solder is not good enough). Do you have
access to a good torch? I would use a split bolt connector and then after
tightening it braze shut it with 40% silver solder. Solid #6 wire should
be enough; no need to use #4 unless the wire is subject to being damaged
by a lawn mower or something.

Bob

Is this CadWeld some product I can pick up from Lowes or Home Depot? If so,
sounds even simpler than brazing.


wrote in message
...

Exothermic welding is a chemical weld, not brazing.
They refer to a product like CadWeld which is a copper laden thermite
type powder. You put a mold around the joint, pour it full of this
powder and light it. When the fire goes out you have a solid mass of
copper around the joint.
If he can get to the first rod with the copper he has he can jumper to
the second rod.

wrote:
On Fri, 12 Jan 2007 23:57:32 -0600, zxcvbob
wrote:

One continuous conductor, unless spliced with an irreversible connections
such as an exothermic weld (solder is not good enough). Do you have access
to a good torch? I would use a split bolt connector and then after
tightening it braze shut it with 40% silver solder.

Exothermic welding is a chemical weld, not brazing.
They refer to a product like CadWeld which is a copper laden thermite
type powder. You put a mold around the joint, pour it full of this
powder and light it. When the fire goes out you have a solid mass of
copper around the joint.
If he can get to the first rod with the copper he has he can jumper to
the second rod.



I understand that; a thermite weld. I think brazing (with silver) a copper
or bronze split bolt connector so it cannot be loosened is a reasonable
approximation.

Copper is extraordinarily hard to weld.

Bob

In article ,
"Fpbear II" wrote:

I am extending the ground for the service panel with two 8' rods because the
pipes were re-done in PVC. I plan to attach #4 wire to the end of the
existing #6 wire with two copper split-bolt connectors and make the
connection real tight. I have been reading that the copper ground wire
should be one continuous wire. However I pefer not to mess with high
voltage and take apart the service panel to make it one continuous ground
wire. Are the split bolt connectors sufficient or is there some "physics"
reason it must be one wire? Or is it to prevent someone from accidentally
un-screwing the bolt?

It's due to the destructive power of a lightning strike.
The idea is to make it as easy as possible for the lightning to get to
ground without damaging anything. There aren't supposed to be sharp
bends in the wire to the ground rod either. The wire isn't supposed to
be wrapped around anything. It's supposed to be as straight as
possible. #6 is specified since a ground rod can handle only so much
current anyhow. Going to a larger size wire won't help a whole bunch.

Dean

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Fpbear II wrote:

I am extending the ground for the service panel with two 8' rods because the
pipes were re-done in PVC. I plan to attach #4 wire to the end of the
existing #6 wire with two copper split-bolt connectors and make the
connection real tight. I have been reading that the copper ground wire
should be one continuous wire. However I pefer not to mess with high
voltage and take apart the service panel to make it one continuous ground
wire. Are the split bolt connectors sufficient or is there some "physics"
reason it must be one wire? Or is it to prevent someone from accidentally
un-screwing the bolt?

You need to redo it with a continuous wire, unless you are equipped to
weld (not solder) the wires together. This is generally only done on big
commercial work and is done with exothermic welding gear which you in
all probability don't have.

Assuming this is a residential scenario, the service panel does not
contain high voltage, it contains 240V. Even if it's commercial it isn't
likely above 480V which is still not high voltage.

If you really don't feel safe working in the panel, install your ground
rods and the wire all the way back to the panel leaving plenty of extra
and then have an electrician stop by and make the connection in the
panel.

Pete C.

If you really don't feel safe working in the panel, install your ground
rods and the wire all the way back to the panel leaving plenty of extra
and then have an electrician stop by and make the connection in the
panel.

Pete C.

I am in COMPLETE agreement with this, and will add overall how old is
your main service?

dont patch something thats designed to last 50 or a 100 years do it
right once!

Fpbear II wrote:
Thank you Bob, I'll braze the split bolt connector. I have a torch that I
used years ago to fix a copper water pipe. I don't remember how to solder
with it but I think I can find some crash course on the net. Still a bit
curious how this affects the physical properties of the electricity running
through the wire.

Please don't do that. No offense, but you'll probably just make a mess
of it. Even if you can make a decent braze, brazing is not accepted by
NEC. Here is an acceptable ground clamp, readily available at Home
Depot:
http://www.idealindustries.com/IDEAL...2?OpenDocument

Usually referred to an "acorn nut," the one in the link is for 1/2"
ground rods. They are also available for 5/8" rods. It helps to slide
the acorn nut(s) onto the the ground rod _before_ driving it, if using
a sledge hammer, as the head tends to mushroom, making it a PITA to
install the acorn nut after the fact.

Pete C and gfretwell had some good suggestions. If I were doing it, I
would drive the first ground rod as close to the electric service as
possible, preferably 18" away from the house so it is at or outside of
the roof drip line. Drive the second rod one rod length away from the
first rod and trench between the rods. The deeper the better. I use
#4 bare copper since it is not required to be protected. As Tom Horne
has stated in other threads in this NG, if you're going to do all that,
it would be better and about as much work to establish a "ground ring"
while you're at it. A minimum ground ring would require using #2 bare
copper at least 20 feet long and buried at least 30 inches.

After driving the rods (preferably 5/8" copper), run the wire from the
panel to the first rod, through the acorn nut without slice then on the
the next rod. Then working your way back to the panel, connect the
wire to the second rod, tighten the ground clamp at the first rod, then
connect to the panel. De-energize the main panel breaker before
removing the original grounding system wiring.

If you still insist on using a split bolt, which is not acceptable by
NEC if the splice is before the first rod, at least use one that is
listed for the purpose, which usually means using one made of brass,
overlap the wires about one foot and use two split bolts.

On Fri, 12 Jan 2007 23:57:32 -0600, zxcvbob
wrote:

Fpbear II wrote:
I am extending the ground for the service panel with two 8' rods because the
pipes were re-done in PVC. I plan to attach #4 wire to the end of the
existing #6 wire with two copper split-bolt connectors and make the
connection real tight. I have been reading that the copper ground wire
should be one continuous wire. However I pefer not to mess with high
voltage and take apart the service panel to make it one continuous ground
wire. Are the split bolt connectors sufficient or is there some "physics"
reason it must be one wire? Or is it to prevent someone from accidentally
un-screwing the bolt?




One continuous conductor, unless spliced with an irreversible connections
such as an exothermic weld (solder is not good enough). Do you have access
to a good torch? I would use a split bolt connector and then after
tightening it braze shut it with 40% silver solder. Solid #6 wire should
be enough; no need to use #4 unless the wire is subject to being damaged by
a lawn mower or something.

Bob


Good advice! Just want to add, to help the 'grounding' effect, the
code requires those rods 6 feet apart, but make them 8. Easy way to
do this, drive the first one, then lay the second one on the ground,
and then that's 8 feet.

The idea about the splice, it should be in such a way that over a long
time, nothing can work it's way loose. The grounding system with the
rods stablizes voltages and can help extend the life of many of your
home's electronics. So it's a good idea to follow the NEC
requirements, and do it once right.

Remember, not your electrician, so just my options.

tom @ www.Florida-VOIP.com

On Sat, 13 Jan 2007 06:09:10 GMT, "Fpbear II"
wrote:

Thank you Bob, I'll braze the split bolt connector. I have a torch that I
used years ago to fix a copper water pipe. I don't remember how to solder
with it but I think I can find some crash course on the net. Still a bit
curious how this affects the physical properties of the electricity running
through the wire.


"zxcvbob" wrote in message
...

One continuous conductor, unless spliced with an irreversible connections
such as an exothermic weld (solder is not good enough). Do you have
access to a good torch? I would use a split bolt connector and then after
tightening it braze shut it with 40% silver solder. Solid #6 wire should
be enough; no need to use #4 unless the wire is subject to being damaged
by a lawn mower or something.

Bob


Yes, Bob. You do that and it will be more than enough.

It will last a few hundred years, at least..

Don't listen to all the crap I'm hearing from the jerks that want you
to spend a fortune on some fancy overkill stuff.

Good tips. I should note that the existing ground wire coming out of the
service panel ends at a clamp on a copper pipe. This copper pipe was cut
somewhere not too far under the ground for the PVC. I wasn't around when
this re-piping project was done, but I am getting crazy voltages, 134V at a
couple outlets, and 4V difference between this ground wire and the fence
post, so I'm sure this is part of the problem. I was intending to leave the
copper pipe clamp like it is and just "extend" the system so it can also
benefit from this little pipe section. I will make sure it is done right,
probably leave some extra wire near the service panel till I figure out how
to make the connection.


"volts500" wrote in message
Please don't do that. No offense, but you'll probably just make a mess
of it. Even if you can make a decent braze, brazing is not accepted by
NEC. Here is an acceptable ground clamp, readily available at Home
Depot:
http://www.idealindustries.com/IDEAL...2?OpenDocument

Usually referred to an "acorn nut," the one in the link is for 1/2"
ground rods. They are also available for 5/8" rods. It helps to slide
the acorn nut(s) onto the the ground rod _before_ driving it, if using
a sledge hammer, as the head tends to mushroom, making it a PITA to
install the acorn nut after the fact.

Pete C and gfretwell had some good suggestions. If I were doing it, I
would drive the first ground rod as close to the electric service as
possible, preferably 18" away from the house so it is at or outside of
the roof drip line. Drive the second rod one rod length away from the
first rod and trench between the rods. The deeper the better. I use
#4 bare copper since it is not required to be protected. As Tom Horne
has stated in other threads in this NG, if you're going to do all that,
it would be better and about as much work to establish a "ground ring"
while you're at it. A minimum ground ring would require using #2 bare
copper at least 20 feet long and buried at least 30 inches.

After driving the rods (preferably 5/8" copper), run the wire from the
panel to the first rod, through the acorn nut without slice then on the
the next rod. Then working your way back to the panel, connect the
wire to the second rod, tighten the ground clamp at the first rod, then
connect to the panel. De-energize the main panel breaker before
removing the original grounding system wiring.

If you still insist on using a split bolt, which is not acceptable by
NEC if the splice is before the first rod, at least use one that is
listed for the purpose, which usually means using one made of brass,
overlap the wires about one foot and use two split bolts.

DK wrote:

On Sat, 13 Jan 2007 06:09:10 GMT, "Fpbear II"
wrote:


Thank you Bob, I'll braze the split bolt connector. I have a torch that I
used years ago to fix a copper water pipe. I don't remember how to solder
with it but I think I can find some crash course on the net. Still a bit
curious how this affects the physical properties of the electricity running
through the wire.


"zxcvbob" wrote in message
...


One continuous conductor, unless spliced with an irreversible connections
such as an exothermic weld (solder is not good enough). Do you have
access to a good torch? I would use a split bolt connector and then after
tightening it braze shut it with 40% silver solder. Solid #6 wire should
be enough; no need to use #4 unless the wire is subject to being damaged
by a lawn mower or something.

Bob


Yes, Bob. You do that and it will be more than enough.

Will it meet code?


It will last a few hundred years, at least..

Don't listen to all the crap I'm hearing from the jerks that want you
to spend a fortune on some fancy overkill stuff.




--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

CJT wrote:
DK wrote:

On Sat, 13 Jan 2007 06:09:10 GMT, "Fpbear II"
wrote:


Thank you Bob, I'll braze the split bolt connector. I have a torch
that I used years ago to fix a copper water pipe. I don't remember
how to solder with it but I think I can find some crash course on the
net. Still a bit curious how this affects the physical properties of
the electricity running through the wire.


"zxcvbob" wrote in message
...


One continuous conductor, unless spliced with an irreversible
connections such as an exothermic weld (solder is not good enough).
Do you have access to a good torch? I would use a split bolt
connector and then after tightening it braze shut it with 40% silver
solder. Solid #6 wire should be enough; no need to use #4 unless
the wire is subject to being damaged by a lawn mower or something.

Bob


Yes, Bob. You do that and it will be more than enough.

Will it meet code?


It should, but that's up to the inspector (if there is one.)
A split bolt connector is a compression joint. When you solder the threads
(especially using hard solder), you've made it irreversible.

Just make sure it looks neat. Don't try to solder or braze the wires, the
silver solder is just to make the split bolt connection permanent.

Best regards,
Bob

"Fpbear II" wrote in message
. net...
Good tips. I should note that the existing ground wire coming out of the
service panel ends at a clamp on a copper pipe. This copper pipe was cut
somewhere not too far under the ground for the PVC. I wasn't around when
this re-piping project was done, but I am getting crazy voltages, 134V at
a couple outlets, and 4V difference between this ground wire and the fence
post, so I'm sure this is part of the problem. I was intending to leave
the copper pipe clamp like it is and just "extend" the system so it can
also benefit from this little pipe section. I will make sure it is done
right, probably leave some extra wire near the service panel till I figure
out how to make the connection.


"volts500" wrote in message
Please don't do that. No offense, but you'll probably just make a mess
of it. Even if you can make a decent braze, brazing is not accepted by
NEC. Here is an acceptable ground clamp, readily available at Home
Depot:
http://www.idealindustries.com/IDEAL...2?OpenDocument

Usually referred to an "acorn nut," the one in the link is for 1/2"
ground rods. They are also available for 5/8" rods. It helps to slide
the acorn nut(s) onto the the ground rod _before_ driving it, if using
a sledge hammer, as the head tends to mushroom, making it a PITA to
install the acorn nut after the fact.

Pete C and gfretwell had some good suggestions. If I were doing it, I
would drive the first ground rod as close to the electric service as
possible, preferably 18" away from the house so it is at or outside of
the roof drip line. Drive the second rod one rod length away from the
first rod and trench between the rods. The deeper the better. I use
#4 bare copper since it is not required to be protected. As Tom Horne
has stated in other threads in this NG, if you're going to do all that,
it would be better and about as much work to establish a "ground ring"
while you're at it. A minimum ground ring would require using #2 bare
copper at least 20 feet long and buried at least 30 inches.

After driving the rods (preferably 5/8" copper), run the wire from the
panel to the first rod, through the acorn nut without slice then on the
the next rod. Then working your way back to the panel, connect the
wire to the second rod, tighten the ground clamp at the first rod, then
connect to the panel. De-energize the main panel breaker before
removing the original grounding system wiring.

If you still insist on using a split bolt, which is not acceptable by
NEC if the splice is before the first rod, at least use one that is
listed for the purpose, which usually means using one made of brass,
overlap the wires about one foot and use two split bolts.


Nothing right or wrong in the ground system can causse you to have 134 volts
at an outlet and you will never stop having voltages between differing
grounds. The advice you have been given is good, you need a good ground and
it needs to be done according to all applicable codes. Having 134 volts at
an outlet can only be a result of excessive input from the power company or
a high resistance in the neutral line. Having voltages between different
grounds is perfectly normal and will always exist.

Don Young

It turned out to be a power company problem. While driving in the ground
rods I looked up and noticed that the neutral line connector was broken off
at the power pole! So I called out the power company and Southern CA Edison
showed up within an hour to fix it. Now the voltages are reading normal at
the outlets.


"Don Young" wrote in message
...

Nothing right or wrong in the ground system can causse you to have 134
volts at an outlet and you will never stop having voltages between
differing grounds. The advice you have been given is good, you need a good
ground and it needs to be done according to all applicable codes. Having
134 volts at an outlet can only be a result of excessive input from the
power company or a high resistance in the neutral line. Having voltages
between different grounds is perfectly normal and will always exist.

Don Young

zxcvbob wrote:

Will it meet code?

No, it will not meet code.

It should, but that's up to the inspector (if there is one.)

If you can find an electrical inspector who will pass a hack job like
that, I'd like to know his/her supervisor's name. Now that you bring
it up, making major changes to an electric system ground _is_ something
that should be inspected by a local electrical inspector, if there is
one.

A split bolt connector is a compression joint. When you solder the threads
(especially using hard solder), you've made it irreversible.

The NEC is very clear that the grounding electrode conductor must be
continuous, without splice. The NEC also realizes that buildings get
remodeled and that situations, such as the OP's, do occur. For those
reasons the NEC, specifically (2002) Section 250.64(C), does permit
splices to be made and _only_ made by an "exothermic welding process",
i.e. CadWeld, or by "irreversible compression-type connectors LISTED
for the purpose."

A silver-soldered split bolt is _not_ a listed irreversible compression
type connector. Both a CadWeld and the tool required to crimp the
irreversible connectors are beyond the capabilities of most residential
electrical contractors, mostly due to cost, let alone a home owner.
Cadweld does make a disposable One Shot, but that is for connection of
wire to ground rods. AFAIK, CadWeld doesn't make a wire to wire One
Shot. The OP could call around and find a commercial electrical
contractor who may rent him a crimping tool for irreversible
connectors, but that would probably be cost prohibitive too.

Just make sure it looks neat. Don't try to solder or braze the wires, the
silver solder is just to make the split bolt connection permanent.

As long as it's neat a hack job is OK? I once saw a house wired with
lamp cord. Sure was neatly installed, though. Just one of those
things that one just doesn't believe until one sees it. I once found a
120 volt duplex receptacle wired with telephone wire, but it wasn't
neat, the wire wasn't stapled.

All this, just because the OP doesn't feel comfortable getting inside
the main panel, and now you've got him out in the dirt with a torch?
I've been doing electrical work for 30 years and I've yet to see an
electrician with a torch, with the exception of maybe using a propane
torch to dry out a damp CadWeld mold before using it, or to fire off
the starter powder because his ignitor took a dump.

Fpbear II wrote:
Good tips. I should note that the existing ground wire coming out of the
service panel ends at a clamp on a copper pipe.

If you have interior metal water pipes, IMO, you should leave that wire
and clamp alone, other than to check to see that it is tight, or to
replace the clamp if it is corroded. If your interior water pipes are
metal and that wire is removed, in the event that the pipes
accidentally become energized by a circuit or equipment, a serious
shock hazard will exist. Also, if your interior pipes are metal, and
the water meter is inside the house, it should be jumpered. The hot
water line should also be jumpered to the cold water line at the water
heater. Same for any water conditioning equipment, etc.

This copper pipe was cut
somewhere not too far under the ground for the PVC.

This is exactly why NEC requires that an underground metal water used
to ground an electric system be supplemented with a ground
rod....somebody comes along and replaces the underground water pipe
with plastic. IIRC, this requirement came about around 1978 or so. If
your house is newer than that, you may want to take a closer look and
try to find a wire that may already go to a ground rod.

I wasn't around when
this re-piping project was done, but I am getting crazy voltages, 134V at a
couple outlets, and 4V difference between this ground wire and the fence
post, so I'm sure this is part of the problem. I was intending to leave the
copper pipe clamp like it is and just "extend" the system so it can also
benefit from this little pipe section.

You could drive the ground rods and run the wire, leaving enough extra
wire to reach both the panel and the old connection at the water pipe.
That way when the electrical contractor comes to make the connection
they will have a choice. Even though the NEC permits them to make a
crimp connection to the wire at the water pipe, they may refuse to do
it. I know I would. It's better practice and easier (for someone
willing to go into the panel) just to take it to the panel.

I will make sure it is done right,
probably leave some extra wire near the service panel till I figure out how
to make the connection.

Since you don't feel comfortable getting inside the panel, I think
Pete C.'s suggestion was best.....do all the other work, then call a
qualified electricial contractor to make the final connection to the
panel.....while they are at it they can check what you did to be sure
everything is OK.

Proper electric system grounding is critical, and unfortunately,
improper grounding is usually not evident until a fault occurs, then
it's too late.

If you do decide to make the connection to the panel, for safety,
especially in this case, since you have no existing system ground, it's
important that the final connection to the panel be made while the
panel is de-energized.

It would probably be best to call your local electrical inspector to
see if an inspection is required.

On Sat, 13 Jan 2007 05:48:55 GMT, "Fpbear II"
wrote:

I am extending the ground for the service panel with two 8' rods because the
pipes were re-done in PVC. I plan to attach #4 wire to the end of the
existing #6 wire with two copper split-bolt connectors and make the
connection real tight. I have been reading that the copper ground wire
should be one continuous wire. However I pefer not to mess with high
voltage and take apart the service panel to make it one continuous ground
wire. Are the split bolt connectors sufficient or is there some "physics"
reason it must be one wire? Or is it to prevent someone from accidentally
un-screwing the bolt?


You're not messing with high voltage just changing the ground wire.
Shut off the main breaker, open the box and replace it. It's no
biggie to do. Just do not put your hands or any metal objects near
the large black cables that enter the box (normally on the top). As
long as you stay away from them, and have the main shut off, you are
in no danger just changing a ground wire.

On Sat, 13 Jan 2007 06:51:56 -0600, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

In article ,
"Fpbear II" wrote:

I am extending the ground for the service panel with two 8' rods because the
pipes were re-done in PVC. I plan to attach #4 wire to the end of the
existing #6 wire with two copper split-bolt connectors and make the
connection real tight. I have been reading that the copper ground wire
should be one continuous wire. However I pefer not to mess with high
voltage and take apart the service panel to make it one continuous ground
wire. Are the split bolt connectors sufficient or is there some "physics"
reason it must be one wire? Or is it to prevent someone from accidentally
un-screwing the bolt?

It's due to the destructive power of a lightning strike.
The idea is to make it as easy as possible for the lightning to get to
ground without damaging anything. There aren't supposed to be sharp
bends in the wire to the ground rod either. The wire isn't supposed to
be wrapped around anything. It's supposed to be as straight as
possible. #6 is specified since a ground rod can handle only so much
current anyhow. Going to a larger size wire won't help a whole bunch.

Dean

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Why would sharp bends do anything? As long as the wire is continuous
the electrons will flow whatever shape the wire is.

I had someone tell me that making sharp bends in romex was bad too.
Thats bull****. Electricity follows the copper. Bends dont matter.
When I wire something I always like to make it look neat bu bending
the wires around corners and keeping the bends tight to the structure.

Why waste time and money on cadweld? When you can use a barrel splice
and acrimp tool.

btw cadweld contains cadmium hense the name. very toxic fumes

Why would sharp bends do anything? As long as the wire is continuous
the electrons will flow whatever shape the wire is.

I had someone tell me that making sharp bends in romex was bad too.
Thats bull****. Electricity follows the copper. Bends dont matter.
When I wire something I always like to make it look neat bu bending
the wires around corners and keeping the bends tight to the structure.

you create future fail spots, the bend stresses the metal and has a
good chance of it cracking or similiar in the future. cracked wires
overheat and cause fires

neatness only counts if it doesnt cause troubles.

as for the OP I would run a new ground line thru the clamp at the
copper line, jump out the meter even though it doesnt matter, ideally
the OLD water line could of been left in the ground disconnected at
both ends from water but still used for grounding.......

one thing the OP may find it very hard to drive the ground rods,
standing on ladder with 8 foot rod waving in breeze.

if the ground is hard it might be easier to have a electrician do it
one with proper driver for ground rods

"Mike Ryan" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 13 Jan 2007 06:51:56 -0600, Dean Hoffman
wrote:


Why would sharp bends do anything? As long as the wire is continuous
the electrons will flow whatever shape the wire is.

I had someone tell me that making sharp bends in romex was bad too.
Thats bull****. Electricity follows the copper. Bends dont matter.
When I wire something I always like to make it look neat bu bending
the wires around corners and keeping the bends tight to the structure.

Bends in wires that have low frequency or DC will not have a noticable
effect in most cases. When you get to higher frequencies it will. A
lightning strike is a very steep pulse. It will not follow the bend in the
wire. It may jump off at a bend and go to something else. Also it will
act like an inductor in the wire and in effect you are disconnecting the
wire at the bend.

Sharp bends in wire may or may not be bad as far as the physical routing
goes.

You obviously haven't been advised properly. LIGHTNING does not turn
corners well. It will NOT follow the copper if it has sharp bends. The
best way to protect a piece of equipment from lightning is to tie a knot in
the cord. You'll also notice on houses with lightning rods, the cable
coming from them will have nice big easy bends where it comes around the
gutters and down the side. Lightning will blow right out the side of a
conductor that has too tight a bend in it. NOW, back on the topic of the
ground cable in an electrical panel, the tight bends don't matter, because
that ground is not for lighting protection anyway.

--
Steve Barker



"Mike Ryan" wrote in message
...

Why would sharp bends do anything? As long as the wire is continuous
the electrons will flow whatever shape the wire is.

I had someone tell me that making sharp bends in romex was bad too.
Thats bull****. Electricity follows the copper. Bends dont matter.
When I wire something I always like to make it look neat bu bending
the wires around corners and keeping the bends tight to the structure.

A steel post driver works great down to the last 2 feet.

--
Steve Barker


wrote in message
oups.com...
one thing the OP may find it very hard to drive the ground rods,
standing on ladder with 8 foot rod waving in breeze.

if the ground is hard it might be easier to have a electrician do it
one with proper driver for ground rods

.... ... wrote:

Why waste time and money on cadweld? When you can use a barrel splice
and acrimp tool.

I don't think that would satisfy the NEC.


btw cadweld contains cadmium hense the name. very toxic fumes



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minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

volts500 wrote:
zxcvbob wrote:

Will it meet code?

No, it will not meet code.

It should, but that's up to the inspector (if there is one.)

If you can find an electrical inspector who will pass a hack job like
that, I'd like to know his/her supervisor's name. Now that you bring
it up, making major changes to an electric system ground _is_ something
that should be inspected by a local electrical inspector, if there is
one.

A split bolt connector is a compression joint. When you solder the threads
(especially using hard solder), you've made it irreversible.

The NEC is very clear that the grounding electrode conductor must be
continuous, without splice. The NEC also realizes that buildings get
remodeled and that situations, such as the OP's, do occur. For those
reasons the NEC, specifically (2002) Section 250.64(C), does permit
splices to be made and _only_ made by an "exothermic welding process",
i.e. CadWeld, or by "irreversible compression-type connectors LISTED
for the purpose."

A silver-soldered split bolt is _not_ a listed irreversible compression
type connector. Both a CadWeld and the tool required to crimp the
irreversible connectors are beyond the capabilities of most residential
electrical contractors, mostly due to cost, let alone a home owner.
Cadweld does make a disposable One Shot, but that is for connection of
wire to ground rods. AFAIK, CadWeld doesn't make a wire to wire One
Shot. The OP could call around and find a commercial electrical
contractor who may rent him a crimping tool for irreversible
connectors, but that would probably be cost prohibitive too.

Just make sure it looks neat. Don't try to solder or braze the wires, the
silver solder is just to make the split bolt connection permanent.

As long as it's neat a hack job is OK? I once saw a house wired with
lamp cord. Sure was neatly installed, though. Just one of those
things that one just doesn't believe until one sees it. I once found a
120 volt duplex receptacle wired with telephone wire, but it wasn't
neat, the wire wasn't stapled.

All this, just because the OP doesn't feel comfortable getting inside
the main panel, and now you've got him out in the dirt with a torch?
I've been doing electrical work for 30 years and I've yet to see an
electrician with a torch, with the exception of maybe using a propane
torch to dry out a damp CadWeld mold before using it, or to fire off
the starter powder because his ignitor took a dump.


I've used a torch on the shrink tubing that is used to cover UF splicers
all the time. It seems to work fine and I haven't had any call backs
because of it.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

Mike Ryan wrote:
On Sat, 13 Jan 2007 06:51:56 -0600, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

In article ,
"Fpbear II" wrote:

I am extending the ground for the service panel with two 8' rods because the
pipes were re-done in PVC. I plan to attach #4 wire to the end of the
existing #6 wire with two copper split-bolt connectors and make the
connection real tight. I have been reading that the copper ground wire
should be one continuous wire. However I pefer not to mess with high
voltage and take apart the service panel to make it one continuous ground
wire. Are the split bolt connectors sufficient or is there some "physics"
reason it must be one wire? Or is it to prevent someone from accidentally
un-screwing the bolt?
It's due to the destructive power of a lightning strike.
The idea is to make it as easy as possible for the lightning to get to
ground without damaging anything. There aren't supposed to be sharp
bends in the wire to the ground rod either. The wire isn't supposed to
be wrapped around anything. It's supposed to be as straight as
possible. #6 is specified since a ground rod can handle only so much
current anyhow. Going to a larger size wire won't help a whole bunch.

Dean

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Why would sharp bends do anything? As long as the wire is continuous
the electrons will flow whatever shape the wire is.

I had someone tell me that making sharp bends in romex was bad too.
Thats bull****. Electricity follows the copper. Bends dont matter.
When I wire something I always like to make it look neat bu bending
the wires around corners and keeping the bends tight to the structure.

A bend made any sharper than a curve with a radius five times the
diameter of the cable holds the real possibility of breaking the copper
conductor. That is why the code specifies that as the tightest bend
permitted in type NM cable
--
Tom Horne

Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to.
We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you.

CJT wrote:
... ... wrote:

Why waste time and money on cadweld? When you can use a barrel splice
and acrimp tool.

I don't think that would satisfy the NEC.


btw cadweld contains cadmium hense the name. very toxic fumes




Would you care to say what section of the NEC it would violate.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

wrote:


Why would sharp bends do anything? As long as the wire is continuous
the electrons will flow whatever shape the wire is.

I had someone tell me that making sharp bends in romex was bad too.
Thats bull****. Electricity follows the copper. Bends dont matter.
When I wire something I always like to make it look neat bu bending
the wires around corners and keeping the bends tight to the structure.


you create future fail spots, the bend stresses the metal and has a
good chance of it cracking or similiar in the future. cracked wires
overheat and cause fires

.... and, at some level, lightning can exhibit RF properties where
bends CAN make a difference.

Why tempt the fates?


neatness only counts if it doesnt cause troubles.

as for the OP I would run a new ground line thru the clamp at the
copper line, jump out the meter even though it doesnt matter, ideally
the OLD water line could of been left in the ground disconnected at
both ends from water but still used for grounding.......

one thing the OP may find it very hard to drive the ground rods,
standing on ladder with 8 foot rod waving in breeze.

if the ground is hard it might be easier to have a electrician do it
one with proper driver for ground rods



--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

wrote:

Why would sharp bends do anything? As long as the wire is continuous
the electrons will flow whatever shape the wire is.

I had someone tell me that making sharp bends in romex was bad too.
Thats bull****. Electricity follows the copper. Bends dont matter.
When I wire something I always like to make it look neat bu bending
the wires around corners and keeping the bends tight to the structure.

you create future fail spots, the bend stresses the metal and has a
good chance of it cracking or similiar in the future. cracked wires
overheat and cause fires

I agree you shouldn't bend it to tight like a
near perfect 90 degrees but you don't need to bend
it that much to get good looks. Bending copper
work harden it and further bending operations can
make it break, but exactly how many bends before
it breaks. When you wrap a 12 gauge wire around a
post, tighten down the screw, and bend the tail to
make it break off, how many bends (back and forth
motions) do you make? For me it is at least four
each way at a very sharp angle. But when you
install romex, you bend it and then how much
additional bending do you do, and how sharp are
the bends compared to a single stripped wire? My
guess is that you would have to do a lot of very
sharp bending to get the wires work hardened
enough to crack.

"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message
...
wrote:

Why would sharp bends do anything? As long as the wire is continuous
the electrons will flow whatever shape the wire is.

I had someone tell me that making sharp bends in romex was bad too.
Thats bull****. Electricity follows the copper. Bends dont matter.
When I wire something I always like to make it look neat bu bending
the wires around corners and keeping the bends tight to the structure.

Perhaps the worry is grounding for a lightning strike. At that kind of power
level, the current can do all sorts of strange things. It might decide to
spark across the gap as well as flowing around the corner.

OT: Bending radius is a significant concern for coaxial cable. Bending the
wire deforms the outer shielding layer away from the desired cylinder. A
sharp bend deforms the cylinder significantly, making one side closer than
the other to the signal-carrying center conductor. This does "funky things"
to the signal. Don't ask me to define that technical term. I'm doing well to
remember my installation training at all. I remember the trainer putting a
meter of some kind on the line and showing how the needle moved when the
cable was bent severely.

All wire (and fiber optic cable) has a maximum bending radius. For
romex, wire bend should never exceed what would go around a large fist.
Sharper bends eventually cause insulation breakdown. Install wire to
last 100 years. No sharp bends.

Reasons for no sharp bends for lightning conductors are different.
Others have described symptoms. But the reason involves something
electrical: higher wire impedance. Lightning protection requires a
conductor to be lowest impedance. That means wire length must be
shorter. Sharp bends (like inductors) increase wire impedance. High
current through higher impedance will find other conductive paths -
such as arcing into an adjacent wall.

Problems created by sharp bends and splices are why AC wall
receptacle safety (equipment) grounds do not properly earth lightning;
are not earth grounds.

Two reasons for no sharp bends. Protect wire insulation and high
impedance. Other reasons also exist. Provided are enough reasons to
not bend wire sharply. Too often, defective installations are made by
being too neat. Earthing wire should be short, no sharp bends, and
well separated from other non-earthing wires. Too many want to bundle
that earthing wire with other wires using nylon wrapping straps - to be
neat. That is a worst installation. Better ground wire does not go
over foundation and down to earth. It goes through foundation, not
inside metallic conduit, to make a shorter earthing connection, AND to
be well separated from other wires. That is a 'neater' installation.
Other earthing wires (telephone, cable, satellite dish) use same rules
to met that AC electric earthing wire only where all connect to an
earthing electrode. That is the 'prettier' installation.

Mike Ryan wrote:
Why would sharp bends do anything? As long as the wire is continuous
the electrons will flow whatever shape the wire is.

I had someone tell me that making sharp bends in romex was bad too.
Thats bull****. Electricity follows the copper. Bends dont matter.
When I wire something I always like to make it look neat bu bending
the wires around corners and keeping the bends tight to the structure.

Mike Ryan wrote:

I had someone tell me that making sharp bends in romex was bad too.
Thats bull****. Electricity follows the copper. Bends dont matter.
When I wire something I always like to make it look neat bu bending
the wires around corners and keeping the bends tight to the structure.

Quote from (2000) NEC, Section 334.24:

"Bends in Types NM, NMC, and NMS cable (Romex) shall be made so that
the cable will not be damaged. The radius of the curve of the inner
edge of any bend during or after installation shall not be less than
five times the diameter of the cable."

George E. Cawthon wrote:
wrote:

Why would sharp bends do anything? As long as the wire is continuous
the electrons will flow whatever shape the wire is.

I had someone tell me that making sharp bends in romex was bad too.
Thats bull****. Electricity follows the copper. Bends dont matter.
When I wire something I always like to make it look neat bu bending
the wires around corners and keeping the bends tight to the structure.

you create future fail spots, the bend stresses the metal and has a
good chance of it cracking or similiar in the future. cracked wires
overheat and cause fires

I agree you shouldn't bend it to tight like a near perfect 90 degrees
but you don't need to bend it that much to get good looks. Bending
copper work harden it and further bending operations can make it break,
but exactly how many bends before it breaks. When you wrap a 12 gauge
wire around a post, tighten down the screw, and bend the tail to make it
break off, how many bends (back and forth motions) do you make? For me
it is at least four each way at a very sharp angle. But when you
install romex, you bend it and then how much additional bending do you
do, and how sharp are the bends compared to a single stripped wire? My
guess is that you would have to do a lot of very sharp bending to get
the wires work hardened enough to crack.

When the acceptance testing was done on type NM cable by Underwriters
Laboratories; low these many years ago; the incidents of conductor
insulation damage went up sharply at bend radii of 3 cable diameters.
The US NEC requires bends of five cable diameter in radius as a safety
margin. The problem isn't conductor fracture but rather that the
insulation will fail over time if it is bent too sharply. Since there
is a bare EGC run inside the jacket of type NM cable the possibility of
arcing which can cause a fire is real.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison