I live in less than a year old house with the latest energy efficient
windows. This is my first winter at this house. I see lots of
water/moisture around window, top to bottom, where they are literally
dripping to floor. I check other postings. I don't see any visible
leak (or at least I don't feel it). My wall clock which has humidity
level check is telling me it's at 30, so I think that's pretty low.
I'm keeping the house at 70 degrees and currently here at North Texas
the outside temperature is at above freezing (around 35??). All my
windows are like these. What can I do to get rid of this problem? I'm
contacting the home builder in mean time.

wrote:
I live in less than a year old house with the latest energy efficient
windows. This is my first winter at this house. I see lots of
water/moisture around window, top to bottom, where they are literally
dripping to floor. I check other postings. I don't see any visible
leak (or at least I don't feel it). My wall clock which has humidity
level check is telling me it's at 30, so I think that's pretty low.
I'm keeping the house at 70 degrees and currently here at North Texas
the outside temperature is at above freezing (around 35??). All my
windows are like these. What can I do to get rid of this problem?
I'm contacting the home builder in mean time.

What kind of frames do the windows have? Metal?

At 30% humidity you should not be having much if any condensation on a
good thermo window unless the frames are a problem.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia 's Muire duit

wrote in message
oups.com...
I live in less than a year old house with the latest energy efficient
windows. This is my first winter at this house. I see lots of
water/moisture around window, top to bottom, where they are literally
dripping to floor. I check other postings. I don't see any visible
leak (or at least I don't feel it). My wall clock which has humidity
level check is telling me it's at 30, so I think that's pretty low.
I'm keeping the house at 70 degrees and currently here at North Texas
the outside temperature is at above freezing (around 35??). All my
windows are like these. What can I do to get rid of this problem? I'm
contacting the home builder in mean time.

First, buy a reliable humidity meter. The component
in your wall clock is probably malfunctioning.

Secondly "the latest energy efficient windows" suggests
your new house is probably more airtight than you were
formerly used to.

Condensation occurs on a surface (e.g. window glass) when
it is cooler than the "dew point," the temperature at which
dissolved H2O vapor in the air turns to visible liquid water.
This can easily happen when it is freezing outside and
you have single-pane windows. Double glazing reduces
the likelihood of interior condensation but it can still happen,
depending on actual temperatures and humidities. You
may feel the benefit of a dehumidifier (but not if your
actual humidity were truly 30 per cent.)

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

Is this on one window or all of them?...........how many are sweating?
Do you raise or lower the inside temp when you leave the home? Then
raise/lower the temp when you again arrive home, etc? Do you also have
storm windows on the outside of these windows?

Me...live in New England and always have this problem. After shutting
storm windows......no more problem.

Don Phillipson wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
I live in less than a year old house with the latest energy efficient
windows. This is my first winter at this house. I see lots of
water/moisture around window, top to bottom, where they are literally
dripping to floor. I check other postings. I don't see any visible
leak (or at least I don't feel it). My wall clock which has humidity
level check is telling me it's at 30, so I think that's pretty low.
I'm keeping the house at 70 degrees and currently here at North Texas
the outside temperature is at above freezing (around 35??). All my
windows are like these. What can I do to get rid of this problem? I'm
contacting the home builder in mean time.

First, buy a reliable humidity meter. The component
in your wall clock is probably malfunctioning.

Secondly "the latest energy efficient windows" suggests
your new house is probably more airtight than you were
formerly used to.

Condensation occurs on a surface (e.g. window glass) when
it is cooler than the "dew point," the temperature at which
dissolved H2O vapor in the air turns to visible liquid water.
This can easily happen when it is freezing outside and
you have single-pane windows. Double glazing reduces
the likelihood of interior condensation but it can still happen,
depending on actual temperatures and humidity's. You
may feel the benefit of a dehumidifier (but not if your
actual humidity were truly 30 per cent.)

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

We had an almost identical posting string to this recently. In which
someone wondered whether to blame the condensation on their new
window. Sounds like high humidity in a well sealed house. Ventilate
and/or air exchange!

avid_hiker wrote:
Is this on one window or all of them?...........how many are sweating?
Do you raise or lower the inside temp when you leave the home? Then
raise/lower the temp when you again arrive home, etc? Do you also have
storm windows on the outside of these windows?

Me...live in New England and always have this problem. After shutting
storm windows......no more problem.


All my windows are having the same problem, upstairs and downstairs,
some more than others. We keep the house at the same temp all day. No
such thing as storm windows, just dual layer with tiny gap between (no
air, someone told me) and it is slightly tinted blue per new city code
for hot summer here in Texas. The frames are aluminum and water is on
there, too. I'm gonna try getting reliable humidity meter and then try
de-humidifier. I think the reading is wrong, too. I also read that on
new house, the new lumber and concrete will generate more moisture
than, say old house. I asked my wife to do the followings meanwhile.

open blinds for better circulation.
circulate air from outside for an hour or so.
keep the fans running at "on" instead of "auto".
and keep mopping .....

wrote in message
oups.com...
I live in less than a year old house with the latest energy efficient
windows. This is my first winter at this house. I see lots of
water/moisture around window, top to bottom, where they are literally
dripping to floor. I check other postings. I don't see any visible
leak (or at least I don't feel it). My wall clock which has humidity
level check is telling me it's at 30, so I think that's pretty low.
I'm keeping the house at 70 degrees and currently here at North Texas
the outside temperature is at above freezing (around 35??). All my
windows are like these. What can I do to get rid of this problem? I'm
contacting the home builder in mean time.


At 70 degree indoor temp. at 30% RH the window temperature would have to
reach 28 degrees or less for the moisture in the air to reach dew point.
With a accurate indoor temperature and RH reading you can determine the
temperature the glass must reach for moisture to condensate on the glass.

If the outdoor temperature dropped suffiently over night water droplets on
the glass could occur.

You might try if you have a humidifier turning it down, or if several long
showers are taken in the home each day, use the venting fan while taking a
shower. Also sometimes after boiling something like pasta this will happen
no matter what else you do if the home is very tight. If it is constant
problem it maybe worth monitoring the RH by purchasing a hygrometer or sling
psychrometer.

http://www.mayfairwindow.com/About%20Condensation.html

My home builder just replied back with a PDF to read. I found the
exact content in web.

jolt wrote:

At 70 degree indoor temp. at 30% RH the window temperature would have to
reach 28 degrees or less for the moisture in the air to reach dew point.

No. Tdp = (70+460)/(1-(460+70)ln(0.3)/9621)-460 = 37 F...

20 TI=70'indoor temp (F)
30 TA=35'outdoor temp (F)
40 RIF=.67'R-value of indoor air film
50 FOR RV=1 TO 4'window R-value (ft^2-F-h/Btu)
60 TG=TI-RIF*(TI-TA)/RV'glazing and dew point temp (F)
70 RH=100*EXP(9621/(TI+460)-9621/(TG+460))
80 PRINT RV,TG,RH
90 NEXT RV

Window glazing Max Relative
R-value temp (F) Humidity (%)

1 46.55 43.15557
2 58.275 66.32038
3 62.18334 76.20583
4 64.1375 81.62463

Nick

wrote:
jolt wrote:

At 70 degree indoor temp. at 30% RH the window temperature would have to
reach 28 degrees or less for the moisture in the air to reach dew point.

No. Tdp = (70+460)/(1-(460+70)ln(0.3)/9621)-460 = 37 F...

20 TI=70'indoor temp (F)
30 TA=35'outdoor temp (F)
40 RIF=.67'R-value of indoor air film
50 FOR RV=1 TO 4'window R-value (ft^2-F-h/Btu)
60 TG=TI-RIF*(TI-TA)/RV'glazing and dew point temp (F)
70 RH=100*EXP(9621/(TI+460)-9621/(TG+460))
80 PRINT RV,TG,RH
90 NEXT RV

Window glazing Max Relative
R-value temp (F) Humidity (%)

1 46.55 43.15557
2 58.275 66.32038
3 62.18334 76.20583
4 64.1375 81.62463

Nick

I haven't seen code like that since high school. Is that BASIC?

wrote:

wrote:
jolt wrote:

At 70 degree indoor temp. at 30% RH the window temperature would have to
reach 28 degrees or less for the moisture in the air to reach dew point.

No. Tdp = (70+460)/(1-(460+70)ln(0.3)/9621)-460 = 37 F...

20 TI=70'indoor temp (F)
30 TA=35'outdoor temp (F)
40 RIF=.67'R-value of indoor air film
50 FOR RV=1 TO 4'window R-value (ft^2-F-h/Btu)
60 TG=TI-RIF*(TI-TA)/RV'glazing and dew point temp (F)
70 RH=100*EXP(9621/(TI+460)-9621/(TG+460))
80 PRINT RV,TG,RH
90 NEXT RV

Window glazing Max Relative
R-value temp (F) Humidity (%)

1 46.55 43.15557
2 58.275 66.32038
3 62.18334 76.20583
4 64.1375 81.62463

I haven't seen code like that since high school. Is that BASIC?

Yup. Just like the code in the ASHRAE 55-2004 comfort standard :-)

Nick

wrote:
avid_hiker wrote:
Is this on one window or all of them?...........how many are
sweating? Do you raise or lower the inside temp when you leave the
home? Then raise/lower the temp when you again arrive home, etc? Do
you also have storm windows on the outside of these windows?

Me...live in New England and always have this problem. After shutting
storm windows......no more problem.


..... The frames are aluminum

Sorry to hear that. It is nearly certain that the problem is the
frames. Aluminum is a terrible material for frames. It happens to be a
great conductor. It is so good it is even draining the heat from the edges
of the window on the inside which is why they are also sweating.

Some aluminum frames have thermo brakes built in, but it sounds like
yours don't.

Sorry, but the only fix I know is to replace the windows.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia 's Muire duit

wrote:
I live in less than a year old house with the latest energy efficient
windows.

For the 1st year, there will be excess humidity in the building
materials in the new house ... it'll likely calm down about in the 2nd
year ... that was my experience. In the meantime, if you don't have
power ventilation, you'll have to make do somehow ... crack a window
open maybe. In my case, the new house attached to the old house, so I
put an opening at the top of the adjoining wall letting that excess
humidity go into the dry, leaky old house next door ... an excellent
solution :-)

Joseph Meehan wrote:

Let me add one thing. Sometimes you can have luck by allowing
additional air circulation to the windows. Open any curtains or drapes and
maybe even use a fan to move the air around. Try that for a couple of hours
and see if it helps.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia 's Muire duit

Joseph Meehan wrote:
wrote:
avid_hiker wrote:
Is this on one window or all of them?...........how many are
sweating? Do you raise or lower the inside temp when you leave the
home? Then raise/lower the temp when you again arrive home, etc? Do
you also have storm windows on the outside of these windows?

Me...live in New England and always have this problem. After shutting
storm windows......no more problem.


..... The frames are aluminum

Sorry to hear that. It is nearly certain that the problem is the
frames. Aluminum is a terrible material for frames. It happens to be a
great conductor. It is so good it is even draining the heat from the edges
of the window on the inside which is why they are also sweating.

Some aluminum frames have thermo brakes built in, but it sounds like
yours don't.

Sorry, but the only fix I know is to replace the windows.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia 's Muire duit

Replace all windows?? I don't know how to convey that message to my
builder. All our subdivision homes (200+) will have to do the same. I
said aluminum but that's my best guess. They are metal for sure and
very thin. I can push them and bend them a little. I don't think I
can bend steel by my finger. Moisture is building at the frame, too.
I'm sure these are massively produced windows, probably well known
brand due to high efficiency rating.

That is a very informative article. Very interesting. I shall keep that
in mind for my home also.

was wondering if possibly you had a drippy water pipe somewhere causing
this excess humidity. Do all your neighbors have the same problem?

avid_hiker wrote:
was wondering if possibly you had a drippy water pipe somewhere causing
this excess humidity. Do all your neighbors have the same problem?

In fact, I was going to ask a neighbor this week. We are all here for
the first winter.

avid_hiker wrote:
That is a very informative article. Very interesting. I shall keep that
in mind for my home also.

About this energy efficient windows. I have to say that these windows
really work during summer. I had 2500 sq ft house just 2 miles south
from where I'm at and my electricity bill was about $300 per month.
Now with 4000 sq ft house with these windows, I'm still at $300 per
month, max !!! My old house was built in 1999. I'm sure other factors
helped, like SEER 14 AC (two of them), which I paid extra for. And
these blue tint actually looks pretty good. Sorry, off the subject.

wrote:
I live in less than a year old house with the latest energy efficient
windows. This is my first winter at this house. I see lots of
water/moisture around window, top to bottom, where they are literally
dripping to floor. I check other postings. I don't see any visible
leak (or at least I don't feel it). My wall clock which has humidity
level check is telling me it's at 30, so I think that's pretty low.
I'm keeping the house at 70 degrees and currently here at North Texas
the outside temperature is at above freezing (around 35??). All my
windows are like these. What can I do to get rid of this problem? I'm
contacting the home builder in mean time.

There is a lot of moisture of construction in a new home, and a lot of
the energy efficiency windows may have what can appear to be high
R-values, but this tends to be for the centre of the glass. The frames
can short circuit a lot of heat and sometimes they may have metal
spacers separating the panes of glass. Metal frames would be just
asking for it.

U-shaped condensation patterns are common as the windows are a lot
colder around the edges than in the middle of the glass.

New homes can be fairly air tight, and in the winter the people can
become their own humdifiers, but this is more common in the North.

You may have to ventilate a lot during this first winter. Hopefully you
have bathroom fans vented to the outside. As an experiment try cracking
open one window and running a bathroom fan steady to see if the dry air
can drop your RH enough to stop the condensation.

Getting the glass warmer will help too. Try keeping the drapes open at
night, this keeps the windows a little warmer. Bay windows are always
the most prone to the condensation.

If running a fan during the cold weather does not lower the RH, maybe
check that you are not creating the moisture yourself. Lots of plants
being watered, simmering foods for a long time, hang drying clothes
inside the house etc.

wrote:
jolt wrote:

At 70 degree indoor temp. at 30% RH the window temperature would have to
reach 28 degrees or less for the moisture in the air to reach dew point.

No. Tdp = (70+460)/(1-(460+70)ln(0.3)/9621)-460 = 37 F...

20 TI=70'indoor temp (F)
30 TA=35'outdoor temp (F)
40 RIF=.67'R-value of indoor air film
50 FOR RV=1 TO 4'window R-value (ft^2-F-h/Btu)
60 TG=TI-RIF*(TI-TA)/RV'glazing and dew point temp (F)
70 RH=100*EXP(9621/(TI+460)-9621/(TG+460))
80 PRINT RV,TG,RH
90 NEXT RV

Window glazing Max Relative
R-value temp (F) Humidity (%)

1 46.55 43.15557
2 58.275 66.32038
3 62.18334 76.20583
4 64.1375 81.62463

Nick

I can never remember if the indoor/outdoor air films are already
counted in the R-value of the glass.

wrote in message
...
jolt wrote:

At 70 degree indoor temp. at 30% RH the window temperature would have to
reach 28 degrees or less for the moisture in the air to reach dew point.

No. Tdp = (70+460)/(1-(460+70)ln(0.3)/9621)-460 = 37 F...

20 TI=70'indoor temp (F)
30 TA=35'outdoor temp (F)
40 RIF=.67'R-value of indoor air film
50 FOR RV=1 TO 4'window R-value (ft^2-F-h/Btu)
60 TG=TI-RIF*(TI-TA)/RV'glazing and dew point temp (F)
70 RH=100*EXP(9621/(TI+460)-9621/(TG+460))
80 PRINT RV,TG,RH
90 NEXT RV

Window glazing Max Relative
R-value temp (F) Humidity (%)

1 46.55 43.15557
2 58.275 66.32038
3 62.18334 76.20583
4 64.1375 81.62463

Nick


Your right I should use my reading glasses when I use a Psychometric Chart.
At 37 degrees the glass temperature reaching dew point is more likely. Dry
bulb wet bulb temps with my background were use to calculate superheat or
subcool.

bowgus wrote:
wrote:
I live in less than a year old house with the latest energy efficient
windows.

For the 1st year, there will be excess humidity in the building
materials in the new house ... it'll likely calm down about in the 2nd
year ... that was my experience. In the meantime, if you don't have
power ventilation, you'll have to make do somehow ... crack a window
open maybe. In my case, the new house attached to the old house, so I
put an opening at the top of the adjoining wall letting that excess
humidity go into the dry, leaky old house next door ... an excellent
solution :-)

Lol good advice, i sound like a parrot

wrote in message
ups.com...

avid_hiker wrote:
That is a very informative article. Very interesting. I shall keep that
in mind for my home also.

About this energy efficient windows. I have to say that these windows
really work during summer. I had 2500 sq ft house just 2 miles south
from where I'm at and my electricity bill was about $300 per month.
Now with 4000 sq ft house with these windows, I'm still at $300 per
month, max !!! My old house was built in 1999. I'm sure other factors
helped, like SEER 14 AC (two of them), which I paid extra for. And
these blue tint actually looks pretty good. Sorry, off the subject.


Is the house on a slab, crawl space or basement? Does it have a humidifier?

wrote:
Joseph Meehan wrote:
wrote:
avid_hiker wrote:
Is this on one window or all of them?...........how many are
sweating? Do you raise or lower the inside temp when you leave the
home? Then raise/lower the temp when you again arrive home, etc? Do
you also have storm windows on the outside of these windows?

Me...live in New England and always have this problem. After
shutting storm windows......no more problem.


..... The frames are aluminum

Sorry to hear that. It is nearly certain that the problem is the
frames. Aluminum is a terrible material for frames. It happens to
be a great conductor. It is so good it is even draining the heat
from the edges of the window on the inside which is why they are
also sweating.

Some aluminum frames have thermo brakes built in, but it sounds
like yours don't.

Sorry, but the only fix I know is to replace the windows.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia 's Muire duit

Replace all windows?? I don't know how to convey that message to my
builder. All our subdivision homes (200+) will have to do the same.
I said aluminum but that's my best guess. They are metal for sure and
very thin. I can push them and bend them a little. I don't think I
can bend steel by my finger. Moisture is building at the frame, too.
I'm sure these are massively produced windows, probably well known
brand due to high efficiency rating.

Likely the high rating you are seeing is for the glass and maybe for air
sealing, but overall, those cheap frames sure reduce the real world
efficiency.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia 's Muire duit

bowgus wrote:
wrote:
I live in less than a year old house with the latest energy efficient
windows.

For the 1st year, there will be excess humidity in the building
materials in the new house ... it'll likely calm down about in the 2nd
year ... that was my experience. In the meantime, if you don't have
power ventilation, you'll have to make do somehow ... crack a window
open maybe. In my case, the new house attached to the old house, so I
put an opening at the top of the adjoining wall letting that excess
humidity go into the dry, leaky old house next door ... an excellent
solution :-)

I find that true to some extent. Maybe not a year, but in this case the
owner has measured humidity at 30%. Of course it may not have been an
accurate measure.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia 's Muire duit

wrote in message
oups.com...
I live in less than a year old house with the latest energy efficient
windows. This is my first winter at this house. I see lots of
water/moisture around window, top to bottom, where they are literally
dripping to floor. I check other postings. I don't see any visible
leak (or at least I don't feel it). My wall clock which has humidity
level check is telling me it's at 30, so I think that's pretty low.

Either the windows/frames are having problems, or your hygrometer (clock) is
wrong.

I'd pick up another hygrometer to just to be sure.

Joseph Meehan wrote:
bowgus wrote:
wrote:
I live in less than a year old house with the latest energy efficient
windows.

For the 1st year, there will be excess humidity in the building
materials in the new house ... it'll likely calm down about in the 2nd
year ... that was my experience. In the meantime, if you don't have
power ventilation, you'll have to make do somehow ... crack a window
open maybe. In my case, the new house attached to the old house, so I
put an opening at the top of the adjoining wall letting that excess
humidity go into the dry, leaky old house next door ... an excellent
solution :-)

I find that true to some extent. Maybe not a year, but in this case the
owner has measured humidity at 30%. Of course it may not have been an
accurate measure.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia 's Muire duit

The colder an environment, the more noticable the mositure of new
construction. Ventilatiojn schems like an HRV will work overtime the
first winter after new construction in a cold climate. The next winter
they can over ventilate to the point people want to add humidifiers

Have you spoken to your neighbors as of yet?

Concrete slab, no basement and I don't own humidifier.

jolt wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

avid_hiker wrote:
That is a very informative article. Very interesting. I shall keep that
in mind for my home also.

About this energy efficient windows. I have to say that these windows
really work during summer. I had 2500 sq ft house just 2 miles south
from where I'm at and my electricity bill was about $300 per month.
Now with 4000 sq ft house with these windows, I'm still at $300 per
month, max !!! My old house was built in 1999. I'm sure other factors
helped, like SEER 14 AC (two of them), which I paid extra for. And
these blue tint actually looks pretty good. Sorry, off the subject.


Is the house on a slab, crawl space or basement? Does it have a humidifier?

avid_hiker wrote:
Have you spoken to your neighbors as of yet?

Not yet, but the good news is that the problem is gone. Here is what I
did.

I had my wife circulate the air by opening the back door for fresh air
and put the fan "on" instead of "auto". By the time I got back from
work, I had to clean up the water but I haven't seen the problem again
for last few days. I also got two hygrometers, one analog and one
digital, and they had ranged between 35% to 42% at given moment. Even
with the wide range I think I was still at near "dry" condition.

I believe the main problem was the rapid drop in temperature in
addition to new construction in first winter. I took the reading in
bathroom when I took a shower and it was at 53% (highest). I ran the
bathroom fan for about 30 minutes and it went down to 33%. I think I'm
gonna use the fan during shower during winter.

Thanks guys.