Bob Wheatley wrote:
snip
There are two different characteristics that affect the perceived amount of
water flow from a faucet.
1. Pressure
2. Volume

Plumbers don't use those terms interchangeably. Upsizing your lines will not
increase your pressure. It will increase your volume.....BUT.....
ONLY if you change the valve to something that was designed to accept the
larger supply lines.

Increased volume {like able to fill the bathtub up quicker, for
example, is this right?} is one thing I definitely want out of all
this. But since I've come to understand (after reading Paul's
excellent post) that I can't get any *significant* pressure increase as
a result of upsizing my lines, I couldn't help but anticipate what
you're saying here about the valve having to be one that 's designed to
accept the larger supply lines for these larger supply lines to be able
to deliver on that.

The industry standard (in the states) is 1/2". It works
just fine on every valve I've installed for thirty years. I thought I read
in one of the previous posts where someone brought up your valve. That's the
key.
If you've tried changing showerheads and/or removing water savers then I'd
recommend that you go out and buy yourself a brand new Moen pressure
balancing valve and install it.

I thought someone else suggested adjusting your PRV (pressure reducing
valve)
I have no idea if you have one or not,


Just the one that reduces/regulates the pressure for the entire
household.


but if you don't have a history of
problems and now you do, I'd look real hard at that valve if you have one.
The "moving parts" of any system are always the weak link.
Pipe is not a "moving part".
If this problem just popped up, look at the "moving parts" first.

Bob Wheatley


Thanks for this helpful info, Bob.

Ken

and thankyou God for plumbers, Amen.

kenny b

Father Haskell wrote:
snip
Increasing to 3/4" would be useful for multiple showerhead fixtures.

I hadn't mentioned it for simplicity's sake, but since you've brought
this up, the idea of having multiple showerhead fixtures (actually,
purchasing and installing one of those "super shower" systems) at some
point in the near future, is also a consideration leading to my
intentions here.

Bob F wrote:
snip
This comes to me as a surprise. In every house I've ever lived in
prior to, as well as including, this one, people have had to time their
showers (or tell others before showering) in order to avoid being
scalded or cold-shocked while showering. I remember my Dad turning
down the thermostat of a new hot water tank that had just been
installed in his house, as a safety precaution to decrease the chance
of somebody getting seriously injured while showering in the event that
somebody opened or closed a tap somewhere unawares during.

I've never lived in a house with such a problem, and I've seen some
pretty corroded galvanized pipes. It would take a significant constriction
in the cold line to make this a problem if you have reasonable supply
pressure.

You really need to be looking at your static water pressure and make sure
all valves in the supply are open fully.

Bob

Wow! This is like a paradigm shift (so to speak) for me. Got any
suggestions as to what to search for in order to learn more about this?
Apparently production housing contractors in my part of the country
are either all helplessly second rate, or are colluding to 'pull the
wool' over consumers' eyes in this matter. (Based on my long-held
displeasure due to a lack of attention to quality _in general_ from
these "slap-n-tack" outfits, I'm personally inclined to believe the
latter.)

Ken

wrote:
and thankyou God for plumbers, Amen.

kenny b

And that would be fine if it wasn't for the fact that (in Canada, at
least), unless one's a general contractor, a good plumber can be hard
to find.

Ken

"Ken" wrote in message
ups.com...

Bob Wheatley wrote:
snip
There are two different characteristics that affect the perceived amount
of
water flow from a faucet.
1. Pressure
2. Volume

Plumbers don't use those terms interchangeably. Upsizing your lines will
not
increase your pressure. It will increase your volume.....BUT.....
ONLY if you change the valve to something that was designed to accept the
larger supply lines.

Increased volume {like able to fill the bathtub up quicker, for
example, is this right?} is one thing I definitely want out of all
this. But since I've come to understand (after reading Paul's
excellent post) that I can't get any *significant* pressure increase as
a result of upsizing my lines, I couldn't help but anticipate what
you're saying here about the valve having to be one that 's designed to
accept the larger supply lines for these larger supply lines to be able
to deliver on that.



Yes, Paul's post was factual. But he's not a plumber.
A plumber knows that it is unlikely that you have a 100' of 1/2" pipe
supplying a tub valve or any other kind of valve. Making his 3 pound
pressure drop a mathematical improbability.
A typical house will have 3/4" or 1" coming from the meter or supply source
and enter the house in those sizes and not reduce until the last 2 or 3
fixtures. Because those fixtures are typically a bathroom there will
"generally" be 3/4" within 20' to 30' of the farthest bathroom in a typical
house. The point being here that increasing the pipe size would result in
possibly a 1 pound pressure drop increase or less. Probably less. Whatever
actual flow rate is gained would not be humanly detectable. Because the
ports in a typical valve are generally only between 1/8" to 1/4" to allow
the water to flow through, you can upsize until you turn green and the
weakest link will always be the valve.
If you have good pressure everywhere else in the house then you need to take
apart the offending valve and make sure it has no obstructions.
Re-piping is a waste of time, money, and effort unless you know the piping
system is obstructed with some sort of build up.

The industry standard (in the states) is 1/2". It works
just fine on every valve I've installed for thirty years. I thought I
read
in one of the previous posts where someone brought up your valve. That's
the
key.
If you've tried changing showerheads and/or removing water savers then
I'd
recommend that you go out and buy yourself a brand new Moen pressure
balancing valve and install it.

I thought someone else suggested adjusting your PRV (pressure reducing
valve)
I have no idea if you have one or not,


Just the one that reduces/regulates the pressure for the entire
household.


You may want to have a professional look at this.
It would be my number 1 suspect.



Bob Wheatley

"Ken Moiarty" wrote in message
...
This thread keeps getting harder for me to believe! But a tentative
picture is beginning to form in my mind that there's some kind of
"culture" gap at play between myself and you guys here. If I was rude to
anyone, I apologize since I'm beginning to see I may have put a wrong
construction on some of the remarks made here. Edwin, you're not American
are you? With that smart-ass remark you initially made I had assumed you
were (which goes to perceived connotation, believe it or not).

Yes, I am in the US. As for my wise ass comments, you asked for opinions
and I offered one. If you don't want to hear what I have to say, don't ask.
No, I'm not a bully at hte keyboard, this is wha I am in real life.


"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote...
I don't know exactly what psi my street's
water main is at. But I do know the pressure in it far exceeds that which
reaches my plumbing fixtures.

OK, this means there is either a PRV (pressure reducing valve) or s ome sort
of restriction. Unless you check actual pressure with a gauge, you can't be
100% sure of anything in finding hte problem.


By the same token, I also know that all the
1/2" copper pipes that feed these fixtures are connected to larger
diameter (3/4") intermediate pipes ("pipes" in plural as I'm referring to
both the hot and cold, respectively) which are at a higher psi, being that
it is *less decreased* removed from in the street than is the psi in the
smaller diameter 1/2" pipes.

For that to occur, the flow rate has to be very high. 1/2" is a common size
feed in residential use and at the fixture 3/8" or 1/4" is common. The 1/2"
feeding them is very adequate.



If your feed from the street is corroded, you may get better flow by
replacing it, but putting in a section of larger pipe will do nothing.

I never implied I was intending to "put in a section" of larger pipe.
(The statement in my original post, "if properly done", was meant to
assure the knowledgeable reader of my awareness here such as to preclude
any such unnecessary confusion.)


If you want to increase the pressure, the first step is to find what
pressure is at the street. Then you compare that to your house. If they
are the same, nothing you do will increase it.

Everyone around these parts expects that the pressure at the street is
going to be a lot higher than the pressure in the house is permitted to
be. I've never heard of both being the same. Certainly no place where
I've lived (in Canada, of course) have these been the same. What is it
that makes one so automatically presume that mine would be? Or that in
presuming that these are the same in my case, that I must therefore
necessarily be to oblivious to the obvious futility of any effort to get
more pressure than is there to tap into?

In my last three houses, and in the two bildings I mantain, the inside
pressure is the same as the street, except for locations wehre we've
intellionally reduced it. Since on of the building sis our prductin
facility, we have a fewgausges so we can monitor this. We also have a self
contained recirculation system that we maintain at 80 psi with pumps.





It's not going to be 110 psi at my shower since it has to go through
reductions in pipe diameter.

No, this is where you are getting confused.

Herein lies the rub: The less reduction in pipe diameter after the main
supply line, the greater (i.e. closer to the original 110 psi) the
pressure. Hence my rationale for replacing the 1/2" diameter shower
feeding runs (that currently branch from the central 3/4" lines they are
tied into), with 3/4" runs instead.

It still comes back to flow. Increasing the pipe diameter is not going to
increase the pressure if the pipes are restricted in any way or if the flow
is not controlled. Take a look at your garden hose. If you have an open
end, turn the water on full flow, the water may come out at about 3 feet
from the end of the hose. Put a nozzle on the end. Now, you have the same
pressure in the hose as before, but with a restriction in the tip, you can
shoot out a stream for maybe 20 feet. Note that the open hose will, though,
fill a bucket much faster.

This takes us full circle back to my original suggestion that you may get
more satisfaction in your shower by changing the head, not the pipes feeding
it.

Ken wrote:

And that would be fine if it wasn't for the fact that (in Canada, at
least), unless one's a general contractor, a good plumber can be hard
to find.

Ken

Canada huh!

There's an old retired fellow up in the Falls area (american side), I
here he works for "lap dances at mints".

kenny b

Ken wrote:

And that would be fine if it wasn't for the fact that (in Canada, at
least), unless one's a general contractor, a good plumber can be hard
to find.

Ken


Ken wrote:
And that would be fine if it wasn't for the fact that (in Canada, at
least), unless one's a general contractor, a good plumber can be hard
to find.

Ken


Canada huh!

There's an old retired fellow up in the Falls area (american side), I
hear he works for "lap dances" at mints.


kenny b

"Bob Wheatley" wrote

Yes, Paul's post was factual. But he's not a plumber.

Maybe that's the reason why he was able to see the problem I was having
integrating what I had read (about pipe diameter affecting pressure) with
what I was merely "being told" in black-and-white terms as being otherwise
(without explanation or discussion). The plumbers were completely silent in
response to my implied requests for help in reconciling what they were
telling me, with what I had read and recalled for them, such as, "The
plumber and the plumbing designer rely on the internal diameter of the water
delivery pipes to control water pressure" (Bob Vila). By giving me the raw,
not paternalistically oversimplified, theoretical information [i.e not
merely what the 'doctors' judged to be all that the little 'patient' need
concern himself with] Paul was able to help me make logical sense of what I
was "being told" with respect with what I had previously read.


A plumber knows that it is unlikely that you have a 100' of 1/2" pipe
supplying a tub valve or any other kind of valve. Making his 3 pound
pressure drop a mathematical improbability.
A typical house will have 3/4" or 1" coming from the meter or supply
source and enter the house in those sizes and not reduce until the last 2
or 3 fixtures. Because those fixtures are typically a bathroom there will
"generally" be 3/4" within 20' to 30' of the farthest bathroom in a
typical house. The point being here that increasing the pipe size would
result in possibly a 1 pound pressure drop increase or less. Probably
less. Whatever actual flow rate is gained would not be humanly detectable.

I think Paul's explanation made this quite apparent.

Because the ports in a typical valve are generally only between 1/8" to
1/4" to allow the water to flow through, you can upsize until you turn
green and the weakest link will always be the valve.

It was to clarify specifically just this question that I posted my query
here in the first place.

If you have good pressure everywhere else in the house then you need to
take apart the offending valve and make sure it has no obstructions.
Re-piping is a waste of time, money, and effort unless you know the piping
system is obstructed with some sort of build up.


Was it not you who said that larger pipes will nonetheless deliver greater
volume (providing the corresponding capacity valves, etc.)?

The industry standard (in the states) is 1/2". It works
just fine on every valve I've installed for thirty years.

Yes, that is the industry standard here in Canada too (for houses). But
I've long noticed in commercial buildings (like the hospital where I work)
they have 1" pipes leading directly to things like toilets. These toilets
(without a tank) flush prodigious amounts of water in just a second or two.
Unless there is more to these systems than meets my eye, it would appear to
me that larger diameter pipes do allow more water to get through quicker.

I thought I read in one of the previous posts where someone brought up
your valve. That's the key. If you've tried changing showerheads and/or
removing water savers then I'd recommend that you go out and buy
yourself a brand new Moen pressure
balancing valve and install it. I thought someone else suggested
adjusting your PRV (pressure reducing valve) I have no idea if you
have one or not,


Just the one that reduces/regulates the pressure for the entire
household.


You may want to have a professional look at this.
It would be my number 1 suspect.


Being strapped with paying on a huge mortgage (huge only because entry level
property values are staggeringly high here in Vancouver) while earning only
a very modest income, I just can't afford to hire a reputable plumber for
anything that isn't an emergency. So I have little choice but to just try
my best at being as handy and knowledgeable a 'jack-of-all-trades' as I can
be in responding to my house's needs.

Ken

On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 02:48:53 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .

In the original post increasing the size won't do anything measurable,
"Can't happen. Won't happen" I don't think so.
In theory and in practice with long runs pressure drops will add up
and increasing the pipe diameter will increase the pressure at the
output end.

Increasing pipe diameter reduces restriction on the flow. Static pressure
remains exactly the same. There will be less pressure drop once the flow is
started. But pressure is never increased by larger pipes.

Static pressure is no more important than the relative humidity when
it comes to taking a shower. Who cares?

Increasing pipe diameter reduces restriction on the flow.

And thus less pressure drop.

Static pressure
remains exactly the same.

Agreed

There will be less pressure drop once the flow is
started.

Which is the condition when actually using your plumbing.

But pressure is never increased by larger pipes.

The above is totally misleading. The only pressure that is relevant to
the OP is during flow, so that if you wanted to stay relevant then you
should of said.

"The pressure can be increased by larger pipes"

Ken Moiarty wrote:

All three showers in the house have less pressure than what I prefer to
have. I have already seen to it that there are no "water savers" in any of
my showers. Open any faucet in my house and the water is on the
slow-flowing side. I believe this is due to (in addition to the 1/4 inch
pvc pipe used below sink faucets) the local water main pressure being
somewhat on the low side. Having the pressure regulator in my house cranked
to maximum, I have checked the water pressure at an outside faucet (when no
other taps/valves were open in or around the house) and found it to be in
the lower part of the typical range. (It's been a while since I did this,
so I don't recall the exact psi reading.)

Ken


Hi,
You just say pressure is on the low side. My house has regulator and
gauge at the water main entry point. It's always
more or less 60 psi. I can raise it higher if I want to.

Ken Moiarty wrote:

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
. com...



snip Volume and velocity is what you need.


Increased volume and velocity of the water _exiting of the shower head_
is what I want (what I "only need" is nobody's concern here). This is not
to be confused with velocity of flow in the supply pipe (i.e. the copper
pipe in the wall), which by itself has nothing to do with the velocity at
which water will exit the shower head. While the _velocity_ of the same or
similar quantity of water exiting the shower head may well be increased by a
low flow shower head (which I'm simply not interested in here for my own
reasons not related to anything being discussed here), there's no logical
reason to believe that volume (or quantity of water delivered per second)
will increase without an increase in supply pipe pressure.
And besides, if somehow a low flow shower head were to somehow result in
an increase in volume (quantity of water delivered per second) that would
only fly counter to the reason for the existence of "low flow" shower heads,
which is, to decrease (not increase) water consumption. So either you
are so bent on promoting water conservation devices that you'll say
anything, however confused, to get others to buy into the sales hype, or you
are someone who has succumbed to becoming confused by such hype yourself.


I have personal experience with this.


Then tell us your experience. I'd like to know the particulars about it, as
opposed to only what you've personally come to conclude 'in lieu of' it,
please.

TIA,
Ken


Hmmm,
Ever thought about water conservation?

wrote:

"The pressure can be increased by larger pipes"

Static - no
residual - yes

kenny b

wrote in message
But pressure is never increased by larger pipes.

The above is totally misleading. The only pressure that is relevant to
the OP is during flow, so that if you wanted to stay relevant then you
should of said.

"The pressure can be increased by larger pipes"

No, it can not. Restrictions are removed, but pressure is not increased,
just decreased less.

Think about that for a minute and once you know the difference, you can cure
the problems easier. Along the same lines, can you make something colder?
No. You can, however, remove heat. The physical differences is of the
utmost importance when dealing with changing pressures or temperatures.
Unless you know what characteristics are the ones affecting your situation,
it is a crap shoot to find a cure.

Bigger pipes do not make more pressure. This is not my opinion, this is the
laws of physics. I didn't write them, but we all must abide by them.

Tony Hwang wrote:


Hmmm,
Ever thought about water conservation?

WHY? I don't live some place where fresh water is not naturally
abundant (such as Southern California, a natural desert, where the
water conservation movement started and where it only belongs). Sorry
if I'm coming across as rude here... This isn't personal. My
sentiments here are political. Living in Vancouver, one of the most
precipitation inundated areas of the world (where we consider ourselves
lucky to get just a one day break from our normal soggy wet weather),
the daily bombardment by, oh so "politically correct" and fashionable,
water conservation propaganda gets a little annoying.


Ken

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
wrote in message
But pressure is never increased by larger pipes.

The above is totally misleading. The only pressure that is relevant to
the OP is during flow, so that if you wanted to stay relevant then you
should of said.

"The pressure can be increased by larger pipes"

No, it can not. Restrictions are removed, but pressure is not increased,

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
just decreased less.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


Oh my! So you really weren't just trying to be a wise ass in your
reponse to my original post after all! You really do believe what you
so clearly misrepresent here as having been suggested!


Think about that for a minute and once you know the difference, you can cure
the problems easier. Along the same lines, can you make something colder?
No. You can, however, remove heat. The physical differences is of the
utmost importance when dealing with changing pressures or temperatures.
Unless you know what characteristics are the ones affecting your situation,
it is a crap shoot to find a cure.

Bigger pipes do not make more pressure. This is not my opinion, this is the
laws of physics. I didn't write them, but we all must abide by them.


Ya think?



Ken

"The emperor has no clothes..."
-Hans Christian Andersen

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
wrote in message
But pressure is never increased by larger pipes.

The above is totally misleading. The only pressure that is relevant to
the OP is during flow, so that if you wanted to stay relevant then you
should of said.

"The pressure can be increased by larger pipes"

No, it can not. Restrictions are removed, but pressure is not increased,

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
just decreased less.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


Oh my! So you really weren't just trying to be a wise ass in your
reponse to my original post after all! You really do believe what you
so clearly misrepresent here as having been suggested!


Think about that for a minute and once you know the difference, you can cure
the problems easier. Along the same lines, can you make something colder?
No. You can, however, remove heat. The physical differences is of the
utmost importance when dealing with changing pressures or temperatures.
Unless you know what characteristics are the ones affecting your situation,
it is a crap shoot to find a cure.

Bigger pipes do not make more pressure. This is not my opinion, this is the
laws of physics. I didn't write them, but we all must abide by them.


Ya think?



Ken

"The emperor has no clothes..."
-Hans Christian Andersen

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
wrote in message
But pressure is never increased by larger pipes.

The above is totally misleading. The only pressure that is relevant to
the OP is during flow, so that if you wanted to stay relevant then you
should of said.

"The pressure can be increased by larger pipes"

No, it can not. Restrictions are removed, but pressure is not increased,

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
just decreased less.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


Oh my! So you really weren't just trying to be a wise ass in your
reponse to my original post after all! You really do believe what you
so clearly misrepresent here as having been suggested!


Think about that for a minute and once you know the difference, you can cure
the problems easier. Along the same lines, can you make something colder?
No. You can, however, remove heat. The physical differences is of the
utmost importance when dealing with changing pressures or temperatures.
Unless you know what characteristics are the ones affecting your situation,
it is a crap shoot to find a cure.

Bigger pipes do not make more pressure. This is not my opinion, this is the
laws of physics. I didn't write them, but we all must abide by them.


Ya think?



Ken

"The emperor has no clothes..."
-Hans Christian Andersen

On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 02:08:24 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:


wrote in message
But pressure is never increased by larger pipes.

The above is totally misleading. The only pressure that is relevant to
the OP is during flow, so that if you wanted to stay relevant then you
should of said.

"The pressure can be increased by larger pipes"

No, it can not. Restrictions are removed, but pressure is not increased,
just decreased less.

Think about that for a minute and once you know the difference, you can cure
the problems easier. Along the same lines, can you make something colder?
No. You can, however, remove heat. The physical differences is of the
utmost importance when dealing with changing pressures or temperatures.
Unless you know what characteristics are the ones affecting your situation,
it is a crap shoot to find a cure.

Bigger pipes do not make more pressure. This is not my opinion, this is the
laws of physics. I didn't write them, but we all must abide by them.

You better go back to the books then. The pressure at the output
end (the end that we are concerned with) of a flowing circuit can be
increased by a larger diameter pipe.

Whether hydraulic or electrical the conduit can restrict flow by
creating pressure drops in a active circuit. The OP will not see this
benefit in pressure but that does not mean it doesn't exist.

wrote in message

You better go back to the books then. The pressure at the output
end (the end that we are concerned with) of a flowing circuit can be
increased by a larger diameter pipe.

Whether hydraulic or electrical the conduit can restrict flow by
creating pressure drops in a active circuit. The OP will not see this
benefit in pressure but that does not mean it doesn't exist.

OK then, what are the number? If you have 100 psi input on a 1/2" pipe
that is 10 feet long, what is the pressure at the output?

Then you add 10 feet of 3/4" pipe what will the pressure be at the end.

Ken wrote:
Tony Hwang wrote:

Hmmm,
Ever thought about water conservation?

WHY? I don't live some place where fresh water is not naturally
abundant (such as Southern California, a natural desert, where the
water conservation movement started and where it only belongs). Sorry
if I'm coming across as rude here... This isn't personal. My
sentiments here are political. Living in Vancouver, one of the most
precipitation inundated areas of the world (where we consider ourselves
lucky to get just a one day break from our normal soggy wet weather),
the daily bombardment by, oh so "politically correct" and fashionable,
water conservation propaganda gets a little annoying.


Ken


OK, then how about the waste of energy? Unless you are taking cold
showers all of that extra water needs to be heated.

"Ken" wrote in message
No, it can not. Restrictions are removed, but pressure is not increased,

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
just decreased less.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


Oh my! So you really weren't just trying to be a wise ass in your
reponse to my original post after all! You really do believe what you
so clearly misrepresent here as having been suggested!


Oh my! You came here knowing nothing and now you disparage comments by
others. Just what is misrepresented?

No one has yet explained or proven that a larger pipe will INCREASE
pressure. The only way to increase pressure is to have a higher head or
mechanically, as with a pump. There are ways of reducing pressure drop, but
that is a different method all together.

Did you understand my analogy of making cold?

wrote:
On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 02:08:24 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:


wrote in message

But pressure is never increased by larger pipes.

The above is totally misleading. The only pressure that is relevant to
the OP is during flow, so that if you wanted to stay relevant then you
should of said.

"The pressure can be increased by larger pipes"

No, it can not. Restrictions are removed, but pressure is not increased,
just decreased less.

Think about that for a minute and once you know the difference, you can cure
the problems easier. Along the same lines, can you make something colder?
No. You can, however, remove heat. The physical differences is of the
utmost importance when dealing with changing pressures or temperatures.
Unless you know what characteristics are the ones affecting your situation,
it is a crap shoot to find a cure.

Bigger pipes do not make more pressure. This is not my opinion, this is the
laws of physics. I didn't write them, but we all must abide by them.


You better go back to the books then. The pressure at the output
end (the end that we are concerned with) of a flowing circuit can be
increased by a larger diameter pipe.

Whether hydraulic or electrical the conduit can restrict flow by
creating pressure drops in a active circuit. The OP will not see this
benefit in pressure but that does not mean it doesn't exist.
Hi,
Simply you can't say that. Law of Physics deals with several parameters.
For one, if incoming rate of water flow is constant, bigger pipe lowers
pressure. It all depends on the situation, rate of flow, intial pressure
at the inlet, rate of flow at the outlet, even ambient temperature, etc.
all matters. I think you better go back to book as well. Remember Boyle
& Charles law?

Ken Moiarty wrote:

This thread keeps getting harder for me to believe! But a tentative picture
is beginning to form in my mind that there's some kind of "culture" gap at
play between myself and you guys here. If I was rude to anyone, I apologize
since I'm beginning to see I may have put a wrong construction on some of
the remarks made here. Edwin, you're not American are you? With that
smart-ass remark you initially made I had assumed you were (which goes to
perceived connotation, believe it or not). I see I really should have not
cross-posted to so many groups, otherwise I could have better anticipated
what part of the world someone was responding from (e.g. the U.K. in
free.uk.trade.plumbing, dah!). Yet it may not just be connotations that are
getting misinterpreted here. It must be technical things too. If it's not
that then it's either, you guys are all crazy, or (even less likely) I am
crazy; scenarios both of which seem to me at this time to be less than
highly probable.

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote...

[...] Increasing the pipe size will NOT increase the pressure. Can't
happen. Won't happen. Put in a 6" pipe and you won't get any more
pressure


If you want to put it that way, nor will 'moving into a bigger house
increase my income'! I didn't quite mean it the way you have apparently
understood me to be speaking. I don't know exactly what psi my street's
water main is at. But I do know the pressure in it far exceeds that which
reaches my plumbing fixtures. By the same token, I also know that all the
1/2" copper pipes that feed these fixtures are connected to larger diameter
(3/4") intermediate pipes ("pipes" in plural as I'm referring to both the
hot and cold, respectively) which are at a higher psi, being that it is
*less decreased* removed from in the street than is the psi in the smaller
diameter 1/2" pipes.

Now I will stop here, and wait for feedback as to just this little bit,
before I continue to to finish trying to communicate myself to you on this
as least ambiguously as I can manage.



If your feed from the street is corroded, you may get better flow by
replacing it, but putting in a section of larger pipe will do nothing.


I never implied I was intending to "put in a section" of larger pipe. (The
statement in my original post, "if properly done", was meant to assure the
knowledgeable reader of my awareness here such as to preclude any such
unnecessary confusion.)


If you want to increase the pressure, the first step is to find what
pressure is at the street. Then you compare that to your house. If they
are the same, nothing you do will increase it.


Everyone around these parts expects that the pressure at the street is going
to be a lot higher than the pressure in the house is permitted to be. I've
never heard of both being the same. Certainly no place where I've lived (in
Canada, of course) have these been the same. What is it that makes one so
automatically presume that mine would be? Or that in presuming that these
are the same in my case, that I must therefore necessarily be to oblivious
to the obvious futility of any effort to get more pressure than is there to
tap into?


If you want a high pressure shower, move to the town that I work in. We
have 110 psi feed.



It's not going to be 110 psi at my shower since it has to go through
reductions in pipe diameter. Herein lies the rub: The less reduction in
pipe diameter after the main supply line, the greater (i.e. closer to the
original 110 psi) the pressure. Hence my rationale for replacing the 1/2"
diameter shower feeding runs (that currently branch from the central 3/4"
lines they are tied into), with 3/4" runs instead.

Ken


Hi,
I think you posted to argue, not to gather information. Simple answer to
your original question, increasing pipe diameter as you stated won't
make any difference. May make things worse. I thought water saver shower
head was a good idea. I live in Calgary in a house with 4 bath rooms.
All my plumbing is done to save water and our water is on meter.
Remember water is becoming scarce and we have to do everything to
conserve it. My son is in water conservation and waste water recycling.
According to him, the outlook is pretty grim for good water supply in
the coming years.
Sounds like you have this idea of your own and trying to justify it to
try. Then just go ahead and try and come back here to report the result.

On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 11:42:24 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:


wrote in message

You better go back to the books then. The pressure at the output
end (the end that we are concerned with) of a flowing circuit can be
increased by a larger diameter pipe.

Whether hydraulic or electrical the conduit can restrict flow by
creating pressure drops in a active circuit. The OP will not see this
benefit in pressure but that does not mean it doesn't exist.

OK then, what are the number? If you have 100 psi input on a 1/2" pipe
that is 10 feet long, what is the pressure at the output?

In your above situation it will be 99.999 psi but it will be lower
than 100. If you were to decrease the pipe size it would be even
lower. It will not be "NEVER LOWER" as you stated earlier.

"George" wrote in message
...
Ken wrote:
Tony Hwang wrote:

Hmmm,
Ever thought about water conservation?

WHY? I don't live some place where fresh water is not naturally
abundant (such as Southern California, a natural desert, where the
water conservation movement started and where it only belongs). Sorry
if I'm coming across as rude here... This isn't personal. My
sentiments here are political. Living in Vancouver, one of the most
precipitation inundated areas of the world (where we consider ourselves
lucky to get just a one day break from our normal soggy wet weather),
the daily bombardment by, oh so "politically correct" and fashionable,
water conservation propaganda gets a little annoying. Ken


OK, then how about the waste of energy? Unless you are taking cold showers
all of that extra water needs to be heated.

I was just waiting for someone to pull that card. "Waste" of energy? First
of all, who's energy are we talking about here? Your's or mine? I pay (and
pay dearly) for the energy I use. Yet it's not like I have money to pour
down the drain either. I'm not at all one to take long showers. The
quicker an effective shower the better for me as I have other things I'm
more interested in spending time with. Hence my shower needs to be a robust
one. [And not that this should concern anybody but me and those living
under my roof, I'm decidedly not interested in increasing volume/flow rate
for points elsewhere in my household.]

Ken

--


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wrote in message
...
On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 02:08:24 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:


wrote in message
But pressure is never increased by larger pipes.

The above is totally misleading. The only pressure that is relevant to
the OP is during flow, so that if you wanted to stay relevant then you
should of said.

"The pressure can be increased by larger pipes"

No, it can not. Restrictions are removed, but pressure is not increased,
just decreased less.

Think about that for a minute and once you know the difference, you can
cure
the problems easier. Along the same lines, can you make something colder?
No. You can, however, remove heat. The physical differences is of the
utmost importance when dealing with changing pressures or temperatures.
Unless you know what characteristics are the ones affecting your
situation,
it is a crap shoot to find a cure.

Bigger pipes do not make more pressure. This is not my opinion, this is
the
laws of physics. I didn't write them, but we all must abide by them.

You better go back to the books then. The pressure at the output
end (the end that we are concerned with) of a flowing circuit can be
increased by a larger diameter pipe.

Whether hydraulic or electrical the conduit can restrict flow by
creating pressure drops in a active circuit. The OP will not see this
benefit in pressure but that does not mean it doesn't exist.


This Edwin Pawlowski guy is bent on twisting the meaning of what you are
saying and then using that as a pretext to 'wax on' about common-sense
things as though you didn't already know them to be so. This is a child's
game he evidently plays to make himself look 'tall' amongst his supportive
peers in this forum. Don't waste your time trying to get anywhere with him.

Ken

"Ken Moiarty" wrote in message
This Edwin Pawlowski guy is bent on twisting the meaning of what you are
saying and then using that as a pretext to 'wax on' about common-sense
things as though you didn't already know them to be so. This is a child's
game he evidently plays to make himself look 'tall' amongst his supportive
peers in this forum. Don't waste your time trying to get anywhere with
him.

Ken


No meanings are twisted. Facts are facts. Probably best that you kill file
me as I'm not going away. But, if you want to join my fan club, for a $10
cash payment you get an autographed 5 x 7 color photo of me with my plumbing
equipment and pressure gauge.

On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 23:58:58 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:


"Ken Moiarty" wrote in message
This Edwin Pawlowski guy is bent on twisting the meaning of what you are
saying and then using that as a pretext to 'wax on' about common-sense
things as though you didn't already know them to be so. This is a child's
game he evidently plays to make himself look 'tall' amongst his supportive
peers in this forum. Don't waste your time trying to get anywhere with
him.

Ken


No meanings are twisted. Facts are facts.

Yes facts are facts.............

"This Edwin Pawlowski guy is bent on twisting the meaning of what you
are saying" " he evidently plays to make himself look 'tall'"

wrote in message

Yes facts are facts.............

"This Edwin Pawlowski guy is bent on twisting the meaning of what you
are saying" " he evidently plays to make himself look 'tall'"

Can't come up with a disparaging comment of your own so you have to copy
another's?
Welcome to my fan club. As soon as I receive the $10 payment, the
autographed color photo and membership card will be on their way.

Guys, guys, guys, why don't we stick to a topic we all know something
about, like 'lektricity?
--
No dumb questions, just dumb answers.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore, Maryland -

wrote in message
l aws of physics. I didn't
write them, but we all must abide by them.

You better go back to the books then. The pressure at the output
end (the end that we are concerned with) of a flowing circuit can be
increased by a larger diameter pipe.



You're right if you're looking at the "pressure" ( force x mass )
of a physically larger output. Like trying to put your hand over a 1/2"
pipe @ 50 psig, vs. a 2" pipe @ 50 psig, to stop the flow.

However, psig (pounds per square inch gauge) is psig.

If you put a gauge on a 1" pipe , run 10 ft., then bell up to say 24",
add another gauge,
each gauge will read the same static pressure. At flow, it will behave as
it should with standard friction losses or Cv applied. No magical increase
in psig.

-zero

Ken Moiarty wrote:
--

This Edwin Pawlowski guy is bent on twisting the meaning of what you are
saying and then using that as a pretext to 'wax on' about common-sense
things as though you didn't already know them to be so. This is a child's
game he evidently plays to make himself look 'tall' amongst his supportive
peers in this forum. Don't waste your time trying to get anywhere with him.

Ken

It's fun to sit back and watch the new found so called experts argue
with people who are the real experts on the subject.

Ed, your not missing anything and your not crazy, some people are just
a little thick and it takes longer. Good luck.

kenny b

If you put a gauge on a 1" pipe , run 10 ft., then bell up to say 24",
add another gauge,
each gauge will read the same static pressure. At flow, it will behave as
it should with standard friction losses or Cv applied. No magical increase
in psig.

-zero

All pipes have loss, otherwise we'd have a superconductor pipe which
doesn't exist. Magical increases in pressure were never discussed. A
possible increase of pressure at the output end assuming a lossy pipe
can be achieved.

wrote in message
...


All pipes have loss, otherwise we'd have a superconductor pipe which
doesn't exist. Magical increases in pressure were never discussed. A
possible increase of pressure at the output end assuming a lossy pipe
can be achieved.

..........yea, OK fine.

On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 20:27:42 -0400, wrote:


Increasing pipe diameter reduces restriction on the flow.

And thus less pressure drop.

Static pressure
remains exactly the same.

Agreed

There will be less pressure drop once the flow is
started.

Which is the condition when actually using your plumbing.

But pressure is never increased by larger pipes.

The above is totally misleading. The only pressure that is relevant to
the OP is during flow, so that if you wanted to stay relevant then you
should of said.

"The pressure can be increased by larger pipes"

Agree. Static pressure will not increase; however, dynamic pressure
will increase. My $0.02

That said, my oldish house was built with 1/2" copper pipes. I
recently changed all the trunk lines to 3/4". The shower I use now is
fed by a 3/4" trunk line, then to a 72" long 1/2" pipe to the shower
head.

I notice no meaningful pressure increase during a shower (but it has
to be there after all that work!)

The downside was that it takes longer for hot water to reach the
shower because of the increased volume in the pipe.

I haven't really noticed for lack of samples; but, should someone
flush a toilet during a shower, there should be less of a pressure
drop at the shower head - probably the only justification for doing
the 3/4" upgrade.

Gary

wrote in message
ups.com...

Ken Moiarty wrote:
--

This Edwin Pawlowski guy is bent on twisting the meaning of what you are
saying and then using that as a pretext to 'wax on' about common-sense
things as though you didn't already know them to be so. This is a child's
game he evidently plays to make himself look 'tall' amongst his
supportive
peers in this forum. Don't waste your time trying to get anywhere with
him.

Ken

It's fun to sit back and watch the new found so called experts argue
with people who are the real experts on the subject.


No it's not fun to sit back and watch a so called professional make a
donkey's ass of himself; transparently pretending to set "non-experts"
straight by resorting to arguing against things of an obvious ignorant
nature that simply no one suggested whatsoever in the first place.

Ed, your not missing anything and your not crazy, some people are just
a little thick and it takes longer.

chuckle

My apologies to Larry Wasserman (and everyone else)... I'll let it go now.

BTW, thanks again to all who were courteous enough to accomodate my
persistence in my quest for a more complete understanding of facts presented
here and elsewhere. I learned what I came here for and then some.

Ken

"G Mulcaster" wrote in message
I haven't really noticed for lack of samples; but, should someone
flush a toilet during a shower, there should be less of a pressure
drop at the shower head - probably the only justification for doing
the 3/4" upgrade.

If flushing the toilet is the problem, an obvious solution would
be to partially close the valve to the toilet so it fills slower.

Bob