I need to repipe my house. I have plumbing running through slab and it
developed a leak. Rather than repair the pipe in the slab and risking
another leak, I'm going to abandon the slab plumbing and run pipe in the
walls and ceilings. I've heard some contractors tell me that I should use
type 'L' pipe while others tell me type 'M' is fine. Can anyone tell me the
advantages and disadvantages of either pipe and their experiences with
repiping a house.
any help appreciated.
Ron

"Ron" wrote in message
m...
I need to repipe my house. I have plumbing running through slab and it
developed a leak. Rather than repair the pipe in the slab and risking
another leak, I'm going to abandon the slab plumbing and run pipe in the
walls and ceilings. I've heard some contractors tell me that I should use
type 'L' pipe while others tell me type 'M' is fine. Can anyone tell me
the
advantages and disadvantages of either pipe and their experiences with
repiping a house.
any help appreciated.
Ron

copper pipe presents health hazards

pvc pipe doesn't

consider using pvc (cpvc for the hot water)

Type L is thicker than M, and is therefore more desireable; it costs a
little more. Type K is thicker still, but is only very rarely used, in
government installations, perhaps. You should be able to buy either M (red
stripe) or L (bluegreen stripe); the fittings are the same for both. Go
with L; it doesn't cost much more, but is more durable over time, and,
furthermore, can take more punishment during the installation process.
By all means, check your local plumbing code requirements; pull a permit for
your repipe job, and the inspectors will help you do the job correctly!
When you sell your house, you will be able to show the buyer that the
repiping job was done under permit, using lead-free joining, etc. Sand your
joints inside the fittings and outside the piping, for the ultimate weld;
this is very time consuming. Plumbers in haste probably won't; they know
all the shortcuts.

I haven't checked the Uniform Plumbing Code (at local library) for quite a
number of years, but when I did, it was permissible to use M above ground,
while L was required below and at grade. Your plumbing inspector will
verify what is permissible! How much better to be guided correctly at the
outset than to have to redo the work later. UPC will provide some
guidelines for proper sizing of your pipes.

You haven't specified whether your present piping is copper, steel, or
whatever. To install copper piping while leaving ANY steel piping in place
is a prescription for disaster, as the copper will destroy the iron by
galvanic action. Don't forget to replace shower risers, too.

Repiping specialists, working as teams, will repipe your entire house very
rapidly. There are different techniques, depending on
things such as how many floors are in your house; whether to use sweat
fittings or friction fittings at stop valves, etc. Proper plumbing, at
toilets, is to have the pipe protrude from the wall, but some repipers bring
it up straight through the floor! If you are plumbing the house yourself,
without experience, then you will have to have a powerful intuition for the
ways that disaster might strike. For example, those feeder lines that
extend from stop valves to toilets and faucets can fail. What will stop the
water from flowing in the event of failure? Nothing! This has happened
many times; I just wait to hear through the grapevine of some acquaintance
who came home to a flood, due to aging and neglected toilet plumbing.
Nowadays, nylon-braded or steel-braded flexible risers have replaced those
notorious flexible brass tubes, which required a peripheral bead inside the
retainer nut, to prevent mere water pressure from pushing the tube out of
the stop valve. But gaskets eventually deteriorate, so such risers should
be replaced eventually. Furthermore, you might damage something with your
torch, at the outset.

One problem with copper, assuming you are using a torch to sweat joints, is
to design the system to be repairable in the future. Therefore, you should
make it possible to drain all water out of the piping, by gravity, in case
you should ever want to reheat a joint. If any water lies in the pipe,
anywhere near the location of your torch point, then that water will need to
boil away before the copper will rise in temperature so that solder will
melt.

You should consider installing standpipes behind toilet stalls, etc., where
abrupt valve actions might cause water hammer. Sprinkler valves are even
worse. This technique provides air cushion...shock absorption. But
standpipes gradually fill with water, and are refreshed by draining your
pipes occasionally.

Lay your system out so that one hose bib will still function, even if you
have to shut all water pressure off inside the house.

Consider a loop with pump, for your hot water system. The pump need not
operate all the time; there are clocked switches. It is imperative to
insulate all hot water lines, ESPECIALLY a loop. Nowadays, with energy
costs rising, more attention is drawn toward localized, instant hot water,
rather than having a big tank hot all the time.

You might need to insulate cold water pipes, too, to mitigate the threat of
freeze damage. Copper conducts heat much better than steel, and is thinner,
so it is more VULNERABLE to freeze damage. If your house experiences cold
winters, beware. There are approved methods of dealing with this threat.
Don't overlook the need to replace your main feeder line, from the munipical
water meter; that pipe must be kept below grade by some prescribed distance,
and never allow fresh water pipes to lie beneath waste piping. Your
inspector will help.

Copper pipe is assumed to last forever, but nothing is forever. The insides
of hot water lines, in particular, coat with a mineral deposit, but such
obstuction is minor compared to the degeneration manifested inside
galvanized steel fresh water pipes. However, copper pipe, especially M, has
been known to fail due to manufacturing defect; if sand is embedded in the
copper at the time of extrusion, then any such grain of sand can become the
site of a pinhole leak later. This has never happened to me; I have only
heard about this sad story.

My condolences that your house had pressure piping in the slab. I've seen
kitchen floors opened up to repair such problems, at great difficulty and
expense. Metal waste piping fails, too, but the lifespan is usually
considerably greater than steel fresh water piping.

"Ron" wrote in message
m...
I need to repipe my house. I have plumbing running through slab and it
developed a leak. Rather than repair the pipe in the slab and risking
another leak, I'm going to abandon the slab plumbing and run pipe in the
walls and ceilings. I've heard some contractors tell me that I should use
type 'L' pipe while others tell me type 'M' is fine. Can anyone tell me
the
advantages and disadvantages of either pipe and their experiences with
repiping a house.
any help appreciated.
Ron

"effi" wrote in message

copper pipe presents health hazards

pvc pipe doesn't

consider using pvc (cpvc for the hot water)

Are you sure? You whine about every other plastic and now you say this is
OK?

The only safe way to get water is to take a glass container to the well in
the center of town and lower it in. Don't use a wooden cask as it can
harbor bacteria.

If I was going to re-do plumbing, I'd consider Pex.

On 1/29/2005 4:44 AM US(ET), effi took fingers to keys, and typed the
following:

"Ron" wrote in message
om...


I need to repipe my house. I have plumbing running through slab and it
developed a leak. Rather than repair the pipe in the slab and risking
another leak, I'm going to abandon the slab plumbing and run pipe in the
walls and ceilings. I've heard some contractors tell me that I should use
type 'L' pipe while others tell me type 'M' is fine. Can anyone tell me
the
advantages and disadvantages of either pipe and their experiences with
repiping a house.
any help appreciated.
Ron



copper pipe presents health hazards

pvc pipe doesn't

consider using pvc (cpvc for the hot water)


Google - pvc +cancer -

--
Bill

In article , Ron wrote:
I need to repipe my house. I have plumbing running through slab and it
developed a leak. Rather than repair the pipe in the slab and risking
another leak, I'm going to abandon the slab plumbing and run pipe in the
walls and ceilings. I've heard some contractors tell me that I should use
type 'L' pipe while others tell me type 'M' is fine. Can anyone tell me the
advantages and disadvantages of either pipe and their experiences with
repiping a house.
any help appreciated.

The difference between type K,L,M is the thickness of the wall. I've never
seen type K in a home. My old home had the cheapest imported type M that
ever was made; it developed pinhole leaks inside the walls after fifteen
years or so.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/16_779.html

In my new (1920s) home, I've used type L for everything that I replace. The
price difference is small and there's no labor difference.

--
Like, in not getting harsh winters, y'mean? As I look out my window
upon the British landscape it's white with snow and colder'n a witch's
tit. I suppose you'll be one of those soft Southron sodomites, so near
France you're practically a wog. --- Semolina Pilchard in alt.tasteless

Ron wrote:
I need to repipe my house. I have plumbing running through slab and it
developed a leak. Rather than repair the pipe in the slab and risking
another leak, I'm going to abandon the slab plumbing and run pipe in the
walls and ceilings. I've heard some contractors tell me that I should use
type 'L' pipe while others tell me type 'M' is fine. Can anyone tell me the
advantages and disadvantages of either pipe and their experiences with
repiping a house.
any help appreciated.
Ron


Good scheme to go wall/ceiling. If you're where very cold weather
occurs, you'll need to pay attention to insulation in the ceiling.

Rather than rigid "pipe" (either L or M), consider using soft
copper tubing. That's available as Type "L" with the same OD (5/8")
as 1/2" pipe. Much, much easier to pull thru tight spaces and
avoids a lot of soldering/torch work inside spaces.

There is also PEX tubing, which is even easier to work with,
but requires special tooling.

If this house was built in the 50's/60's, there is an even
chance that the existing copper was used for electrical grounding
purposes (sw boxes, recepts, fixtures). When you abandon the
old connections, any grounds will be lost. If you know that
all the wiring was done with Romex w/ground (as an example),
then it's not an issue. Just a heads up.

Jim

snip
Effi uttered:
copper pipe presents health hazards

pvc pipe doesn't

consider using pvc (cpvc for the hot water)

Google - pvc +cancer -

--
Bill

Good one Bill.
Effi might as well check out now before all the carcinogens and poisons get
her/him/it.

Effi - get in that canoe and take a long trip to a tropical island and
relax. Forget all about us and the industrial world. You'll live longer.

Yeah, that reminds me. In closing my plumbing permit, the inspector saw to
it that I had a "driven rod" supplementing my house's electrical ground. Of
course, the electrical ground is also strapped to my copper cold water pipe,
nearest the electrical panel. But the point is that closing a plumbing
permit had ramifications on the electrical status of the house. That might
not occur to a DIY who avoids the permitting process...resulting in
negligence. I highly recommend the permitting process to DIYs, and to
homeowners who hire contractors. The inspector becomes the advocate for the
homeowner.

Conversely, proper installation of a hot water loop might require pulling an
electrical permit, to run power to a new pump. The lack of electrical power
discourages some homeowners.

"Speedy Jim" wrote
If this house was built in the 50's/60's, there is an even
chance that the existing copper was used for electrical grounding
purposes (sw boxes, recepts, fixtures). When you abandon the
old connections, any grounds will be lost. If you know that
all the wiring was done with Romex w/ground (as an example),
then it's not an issue. Just a heads up.

Jim

"Speedy Jim" wrote
Rather than rigid "pipe" (either L or M), consider using soft
copper tubing. That's available as Type "L" with the same OD (5/8")
as 1/2" pipe. Much, much easier to pull thru tight spaces and
avoids a lot of soldering/torch work inside spaces.

There is also PEX tubing, which is even easier to work with,
but requires special tooling.

I've never used the flexible stuff. I don't know if it's UPC-acceptable?
Therefore, this becomes a question for the homeowner, even when employing a
contractor. If inappropriate, it's best for homeowner to know, and prevent.

Intuitively, I can't imagine why soft, flexible copper would be prohibited.
I would expect it's much more expensive. Isn't this stuff intended for
air-conditioning systems?

Yeah, over the next 30 years while this is all being sorted out, I'll take
comfort in drinking water from copper pipes. No suspicious organic
chemicals like PVC present. And I appreciate the fine quality of the
municipal water supply, and its annual report.

"willshak" wrote

Google - pvc +cancer -

"willshak" wrote in message
...
On 1/29/2005 4:44 AM US(ET), effi took fingers to keys, and typed the
following:

"Ron" wrote in message
. com...

I need to repipe my house. I have plumbing running through slab and it
developed a leak. Rather than repair the pipe in the slab and risking
another leak, I'm going to abandon the slab plumbing and run pipe in the
walls and ceilings. I've heard some contractors tell me that I should use
type 'L' pipe while others tell me type 'M' is fine. Can anyone tell me
the
advantages and disadvantages of either pipe and their experiences with
repiping a house.
any help appreciated.
Ron


copper pipe presents health hazards

pvc pipe doesn't

consider using pvc (cpvc for the hot water)

Google - pvc +cancer -

--
Bill


you are confusing occupational exposure to pvc (i.e. unprotected workers who
make pvc - more profitable for the owners) with pvc used in plumbing

pvc used in plumbing presents no known health probems; though pvc is itself
toxic, after being in use 3 weeks water delivered by pvc is free of any pvc

copper, on the other hand, used in plumbing definitely presents health
problems to humans (noting per
http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load...241107300.html
"However, my own dog had cancer and he was allways given water from the tap
in the kitchen with copper pipes.")

google copper pipe cancer

copper pipe also causes schizophrenia in humans, as well as other problems,
already covered in depth in this newsgroup and now available in the google
archives

google is your friend

"John B" wrote in message
...
Yeah, over the next 30 years while this is all being sorted out, I'll take
comfort in drinking water from copper pipes. No suspicious organic
chemicals like PVC present. And I appreciate the fine quality of the
municipal water supply, and its annual report.

"willshak" wrote

Google - pvc +cancer -

you should educate yourself on the health problems caused by copper plumbing

NO! Type L soft flexible is the type of pipe used for underground feeds from
your water main. Also used in addition to air conditioning, such uses as oil
line feeds for oil furnaces, natural and propane gas feed lines, and many
other uses where rigid copper is not allowed.

"John B" wrote in message
...

"Speedy Jim" wrote
Rather than rigid "pipe" (either L or M), consider using soft
copper tubing. That's available as Type "L" with the same OD
(5/8")
as 1/2" pipe. Much, much easier to pull thru tight spaces and
avoids a lot of soldering/torch work inside spaces.

There is also PEX tubing, which is even easier to work with,
but requires special tooling.

I've never used the flexible stuff. I don't know if it's UPC-acceptable?
Therefore, this becomes a question for the homeowner, even when employing
a
contractor. If inappropriate, it's best for homeowner to know, and
prevent.

Intuitively, I can't imagine why soft, flexible copper would be
prohibited.
I would expect it's much more expensive. Isn't this stuff intended for
air-conditioning systems?

On 1/29/2005 11:45 AM US(ET), effi took fingers to keys, and typed the
following:

"willshak" wrote in message
...


On 1/29/2005 4:44 AM US(ET), effi took fingers to keys, and typed the
following:



"Ron" wrote in message
.com...



I need to repipe my house. I have plumbing running through slab and it
developed a leak. Rather than repair the pipe in the slab and risking
another leak, I'm going to abandon the slab plumbing and run pipe in the
walls and ceilings. I've heard some contractors tell me that I should use
type 'L' pipe while others tell me type 'M' is fine. Can anyone tell me
the
advantages and disadvantages of either pipe and their experiences with
repiping a house.
any help appreciated.
Ron



copper pipe presents health hazards

pvc pipe doesn't

consider using pvc (cpvc for the hot water)


Google - pvc +cancer -

--
Bill




you are confusing occupational exposure to pvc (i.e. unprotected workers who
make pvc - more profitable for the owners) with pvc used in plumbing

pvc used in plumbing presents no known health probems; though pvc is itself
toxic, after being in use 3 weeks water delivered by pvc is free of any pvc

copper, on the other hand, used in plumbing definitely presents health
problems to humans (noting per
http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load...241107300.html
"However, my own dog had cancer and he was allways given water from the tap
in the kitchen with copper pipes.")

google copper pipe cancer

copper pipe also causes schizophrenia in humans, as well as other problems,
already covered in depth in this newsgroup and now available in the google
archives

google is your friend


I'll have to wait until tomorrow. I've already Googled a few things
today, and I read on the internet that too much Googling can cause cancer.

--
Bill

"willshak" wrote in message
...
On 1/29/2005 11:45 AM US(ET), effi took fingers to keys, and typed the
following:

"willshak" wrote in message
...

On 1/29/2005 4:44 AM US(ET), effi took fingers to keys, and typed the
following:


"Ron" wrote in message
y.com...


I need to repipe my house. I have plumbing running through slab and it
developed a leak. Rather than repair the pipe in the slab and risking
another leak, I'm going to abandon the slab plumbing and run pipe in
the
walls and ceilings. I've heard some contractors tell me that I should
use
type 'L' pipe while others tell me type 'M' is fine. Can anyone tell me
the
advantages and disadvantages of either pipe and their experiences with
repiping a house.
any help appreciated.
Ron


copper pipe presents health hazards

pvc pipe doesn't

consider using pvc (cpvc for the hot water)

Google - pvc +cancer -

--
Bill



you are confusing occupational exposure to pvc (i.e. unprotected workers
who make pvc - more profitable for the owners) with pvc used in plumbing

pvc used in plumbing presents no known health probems; though pvc is
itself toxic, after being in use 3 weeks water delivered by pvc is free of
any pvc

copper, on the other hand, used in plumbing definitely presents health
problems to humans (noting per
http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load...241107300.html
"However, my own dog had cancer and he was allways given water from the
tap in the kitchen with copper pipes.")

google copper pipe cancer

copper pipe also causes schizophrenia in humans, as well as other
problems, already covered in depth in this newsgroup and now available in
the google archives

google is your friend

I'll have to wait until tomorrow. I've already Googled a few things today,
and I read on the internet that too much Googling can cause cancer.

--
Bill

appears you are confusing cancer with carpal tunnel syndrome

you might want to google that also tomorrow

"effi" wrote in message

appears you are confusing cancer with carpal tunnel syndrome

you might want to google that also tomorrow


You missed one effie, that CRT is going to give you brain cancer You have
to check these things out.

"Ron" wrote in message
m...
I need to repipe my house. I have plumbing running through slab and it
developed a leak. Rather than repair the pipe in the slab and risking
another leak, I'm going to abandon the slab plumbing and run pipe in the
walls and ceilings. I've heard some contractors tell me that I should use
type 'L' pipe while others tell me type 'M' is fine. Can anyone tell me the
advantages and disadvantages of either pipe and their experiences with
repiping a house.
any help appreciated.
Ron

This is Turtle.

I have read most of the replys and am just about lost in the vast number of
options. So here is another 2 cent option.

In the HVAC/R business we use Type L soft copper for freon lines for the
equipment. If we want to add just a little more thickiness to the wall of the
tubing. We can use a Type K Soft Copper to add just a little more wall
thickiness to prevent leaks and wearing of tubing leaks. The Type K & L will
still use the regular Plumbing or Refrigeration type fittings and have to not
changed anything. So I would just use Type K Soft Copper.

TURTLE

"Speedy Jim" wrote in message
...
Ron wrote:
I need to repipe my house. I have plumbing running through slab and it
developed a leak. Rather than repair the pipe in the slab and risking
another leak, I'm going to abandon the slab plumbing and run pipe in the
walls and ceilings. I've heard some contractors tell me that I should
use
type 'L' pipe while others tell me type 'M' is fine. Can anyone tell me
the
advantages and disadvantages of either pipe and their experiences with
repiping a house.
any help appreciated.
Ron


Good scheme to go wall/ceiling. If you're where very cold weather
occurs, you'll need to pay attention to insulation in the ceiling.

Rather than rigid "pipe" (either L or M), consider using soft
copper tubing. That's available as Type "L" with the same OD (5/8")
as 1/2" pipe. Much, much easier to pull thru tight spaces and
avoids a lot of soldering/torch work inside spaces.

There is also PEX tubing, which is even easier to work with,
but requires special tooling.

If this house was built in the 50's/60's, there is an even
chance that the existing copper was used for electrical grounding
purposes (sw boxes, recepts, fixtures). When you abandon the
old connections, any grounds will be lost. If you know that
all the wiring was done with Romex w/ground (as an example),
then it's not an issue. Just a heads up.

Jim


I just did some plumbing with PEX for the first time. It is the way to go.
The plumbing supply house that I bought it and the fittings from rented me
the tool to expand the tubing and
pull the
fittings into it. For the difference in price from copper you could afford
to buy your own tool. I think the tool is around $175.
PEX is replacing copper in a lot of new construction because of the ease of
installation and cost.

CR

I'll have to wait until tomorrow. I've already Googled a few things today,
and I read on the internet that too much Googling can cause cancer.

--
Bill

I thought too much googling makes you go blind.

bill a

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 07:10:21 GMT, "Ron"
wrote:

I need to repipe my house. I have plumbing running through slab and it
developed a leak. Rather than repair the pipe in the slab and risking
another leak, I'm going to abandon the slab plumbing and run pipe in the
walls and ceilings. I've heard some contractors tell me that I should use
type 'L' pipe while others tell me type 'M' is fine. Can anyone tell me the
advantages and disadvantages of either pipe and their experiences with
repiping a house.
any help appreciated.
Ron

I would use type-K soft copper. You can solder it with the newer type
of solder. Be aware that some of the newer types of solder have a very
small difference between the liquidus and solidus temperatures and
this makes for much more difficult soldering than the old 50/50 lead
solder now long since banned.
There are formulations that have improved characteristics. Bridgit® is
one type that has a wide plastic range and makes strong joints due to
the use of nickel in the mix.
Some have advised sanding the inside of fittings and the outside of
the pipe. This is correct. Also, be sure to ream (deburr) the inside
of the pipe as well. There are many handy deburring tools out there.
I would not use type-M. Be aware that not everyone uses the color code
correctly. Check the printed material to verify thickness.

wrote
Some have advised sanding the inside of fittings and the outside of
the pipe. This is correct. Also, be sure to ream (deburr) the inside
of the pipe as well.
So are the professional plumbers that rely on solder flux, and rather new,
shiny pipe, remiss in failing to sand their joints?
I haven't performed a comprehensive survey on what professional plumbers do,
on this matter. Perhaps you can enlighten me.
Thanks.

"Ron" wrote in message
m...
I need to repipe my house. I have plumbing running through slab and it
developed a leak. Rather than repair the pipe in the slab and risking
another leak, I'm going to abandon the slab plumbing and run pipe in the
walls and ceilings. I've heard some contractors tell me that I should use
type 'L' pipe while others tell me type 'M' is fine. Can anyone tell me
the
advantages and disadvantages of either pipe and their experiences with
repiping a house.
any help appreciated.
Ron


My sister in law in Jacksonville recently had to do the same thing to her
house. She used plastic pipe. They did the house in a weekend, Kitchen and 2
full baths. The only trouble they ran into was in the shower wall in one of
the bathrooms because it was tile and had no access panel behind the wall.
They did the new tile a different weekend.

Thanks to all who replied. I think I'm going with type I copper.

John, your advise was very useful and I appreciate the time you took to
respond. All my piping is copper, so the iron pipe isn't an issue. I do
intend to have the stops that have not yet been replaced, replaced with
steel-braided risers as well as bringing the plumbing up to code. One of the
plumbers who will be giving me a bid also motioned standpipes to reduce
water hammer.

Effi, code in this area doesn't allow PVC, but thanks for your advise.
Ron

"Ron" wrote in message
m...
I need to repipe my house. I have plumbing running through slab and it
developed a leak. Rather than repair the pipe in the slab and risking
another leak, I'm going to abandon the slab plumbing and run pipe in the
walls and ceilings. I've heard some contractors tell me that I should use
type 'L' pipe while others tell me type 'M' is fine. Can anyone tell me
the
advantages and disadvantages of either pipe and their experiences with
repiping a house.
any help appreciated.
Ron

I think you mistyped...meaning "L".
I never use "M."
Best of luck to you.


"Ron" wrote
Thanks to all who replied. I think I'm going with type I copper.

I did mean type L
Thanks

"John B" wrote in message ...
I think you mistyped...meaning "L".
I never use "M."
Best of luck to you.


"Ron" wrote
Thanks to all who replied. I think I'm going with type I copper.

In article ,
Ron wrote:
I need to repipe my house. I have plumbing running through slab and it
developed a leak. Rather than repair the pipe in the slab and risking
another leak, I'm going to abandon the slab plumbing and run pipe in the
walls and ceilings. I've heard some contractors tell me that I should use
type 'L' pipe while others tell me type 'M' is fine. Can anyone tell me the
advantages and disadvantages of either pipe and their experiences with
repiping a house.
any help appreciated.
Ron



The 'L' grade is thicker than the 'M' grade Main advantage of M is
less cost, though for most applications it will be fine.


--

Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland

effi wrote:
copper, on the other hand, used in plumbing definitely presents
health
problems to humans (noting per
http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load...241107300.html
"However, my own dog had cancer and he was allways given water from
the tap
in the kitchen with copper pipes.")

Here's a more complete quote, which implies something quite different:

"However, my own dog had cancer and he was allways given water from the
tap in the kitchen with copper pipes. He also had good healthcare and a
reasonably varied diet. Many things in our environment can increase the
risk of cancer, but for most who develop it no single thing caused it,
instead the effect was an accumulation of many things working together.
Unfortunately there are no certainties in life, anybody regardless of
age, lifestyle and environment can get cancer."

In other words, anecdotes of single events are often not very good at
proving causality when so many other factors come into play.

From the same thread on gardenweb:

"Copper has well-defined hazards. Plastic is still under investigation
and it will be a long time before the hazards are as well-known as
copper."

google copper pipe cancer

copper pipe also causes schizophrenia in humans, as well as other
problems,
already covered in depth in this newsgroup and now available in the
google
archives

google is your friend

Well, I googled "copper pipe schizophrenia" and the first few hits
seemed to be written by extremist wingnuts, so I quickly got bored with
it. Googling simply "copper schizophrenia" revealed that in addition to
excess copper, INsufficient copper is a factor and that in some
individuals elevated copper was not a cause but an _effect_ of their
genetic predisposition (Wilson's disease).

So myself, if the water's been sitting for a few hours or more, I don't
trust ANY pipe not to leach nasties into my water, plastic or metal.
Before I use any water for drinking or cooking, I make sure I've
flushed a toilet to clear any standing water in the lateral from the
main up to the house, then run the faucet for enough time till the
water feels cold. It's no extra effort because there's usually
something to flush in the toilet* and there's usually a dish to rinse
or some hands to wash in the sink.

*we conserve via the "yellow, let it mellow; brown, flush it down"
method except when company is there.

%mod%

wrote in message
oups.com...
effi wrote:
copper, on the other hand, used in plumbing definitely presents
health
problems to humans (noting per
http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load...241107300.html
"However, my own dog had cancer and he was allways given water from
the tap
in the kitchen with copper pipes.")

Here's a more complete quote,

it was a verbatim quote, you are not offering a more complete quote, you are
simply quoting more

which implies something quite different:

no, the text you quote indicates the copper was a contributing factor to the
dog's cancer, and, in fact, mentions no other known causes of cancer
regarding the dog's cancer (unless you consider the "good healthcare and a
reasonably varied diet" cited to be carcinogenic)

the point was made the dog was not given water out of a plastic garden type
(outside) hose but was given water from an inside faucet fed with water
through copper pipe and the dog got cancer


"However, my own dog had cancer and he was allways given water from the
tap in the kitchen with copper pipes. He also had good healthcare and a
reasonably varied diet. Many things in our environment can increase the
risk of cancer, but for most who develop it no single thing caused it,
instead the effect was an accumulation of many things working together.
Unfortunately there are no certainties in life, anybody regardless of
age, lifestyle and environment can get cancer."

In other words, anecdotes of single events are often not very good at
proving causality when so many other factors come into play.

again, the quoted data mentions no other known causes of cancer for the dog,
just the copper

it is abundantly clear you have not read all the previously cited
information on this issue of copper causing cancer

you are also trying to imply the data available that copper can cause cancer
is wrong

you are wrong


From the same thread on gardenweb:

"Copper has well-defined hazards. Plastic is still under investigation
and it will be a long time before the hazards are as well-known as
copper."

translation: no hazards with pvc (assuming you quote "plastic" as relevant
to, or meaning, pvc), which is what the available data says

if you can't show data to the contrary, your position to the contrary is
based on nothing, and it means nothing



google copper pipe cancer

copper pipe also causes schizophrenia in humans, as well as other
problems,
already covered in depth in this newsgroup and now available in the
google
archives

google is your friend

Well, I googled "copper pipe schizophrenia" and the first few hits
seemed to be written by extremist wingnuts, so I quickly got bored with
it. Googling simply "copper schizophrenia"

you didn't "google copper pipe cancer" (you googled "copper pipe
schizophrenia" and "copper schizophrenia"), then you compared your googlings
to "google copper pipe cancer", you are a failure at reading comprehension


revealed that in addition to
excess copper, INsufficient copper is a factor and that in some
individuals elevated copper was not a cause but an _effect_ of their
genetic predisposition (Wilson's disease).

So myself, if the water's been sitting for a few hours or more, I don't
trust ANY pipe not to leach nasties into my water,
plastic or metal.
Before I use any water for drinking or cooking, I make sure I've
flushed a toilet to clear any standing water in the lateral from the
main up to the house, then run the faucet for enough time till the
water feels cold. It's no extra effort because there's usually
something to flush in the toilet* and there's usually a dish to rinse
or some hands to wash in the sink.

all unnecessary with pvc pipe

enjoy your copper if you must, it's very unhealthy, and can cause cancer
(numerous links posted to substantiate this, research it yourself further,
no additional info will be offered since it's already here, you just haven't
read it)



*we conserve via the "yellow, let it mellow; brown, flush it down"
method except when company is there.

%mod%

Effi,

How did you come to be such a dumb bitch, anyway? Did it happen
overnight, or, was it more gradual?

I take offense to Effie not plonking modervador. Effi's response indicated
one was coming but when I scrolled to the end - nothing. We've all been
plonked by Effi for saying nicer things than modervador. Again, I am upset.

Personally I think The dog actually ate a lab rat............don;t lab
rats cause cancer?

( dog aint gonna say if he eats anything outside the supplied diet
either,..........They sneak chocolate when you're not looking too!)




Remove "YOURPANTIES" to reply

MUADIB®

http://www.angelfire.com/retro/sster...IN%20PAGE.html

one small step for man,.....
One giant leap for attorneys.

"MUADIB®" wrote in message
news
Personally I think The dog actually ate a lab rat............don;t lab
rats cause cancer?

( dog aint gonna say if he eats anything outside the supplied diet
either,..........They sneak chocolate when you're not looking too!)

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a5_211.html
"Chocolate is the third most common cause of poisoning in dogs. Certain
chemicals in chocolate, notably caffeine and theobromine, can cause erratic
heartbeat and in large enough doses can kill your pup."






Remove "YOURPANTIES" to reply

MUADIB®

http://www.angelfire.com/retro/sster...IN%20PAGE.html

one small step for man,.....
One giant leap for attorneys.

effi wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
effi wrote:
copper, on the other hand, used in plumbing definitely presents
health
problems to humans (noting per
http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load...241107300.html
"However, my own dog had cancer and he was allways given water
from
the tap
in the kitchen with copper pipes.")

Here's a more complete quote,

it was a verbatim quote, you are not offering a more complete quote,
you are
simply quoting more

In this case, by quoting more, one truly does provide a more complete
quote. It is difficult to see how it could be otherwise. Your quote,
verbatim though it was, was far from complete. Mine was both verbatim
and more complete.

which implies something quite different:

no, the text you quote indicates the copper was a contributing factor
to the
dog's cancer, and, in fact, mentions no other known causes of cancer
regarding the dog's cancer (unless you consider the "good healthcare
and a
reasonably varied diet" cited to be carcinogenic)

the point was made the dog was not given water out of a plastic
garden type
(outside) hose but was given water from an inside faucet fed with
water
through copper pipe and the dog got cancer

The point made was that the dog got cancer DESPITE being watered from
copper pipes exclusively. The author (Bry84) had earlier made the point
that a garden hose had a very good chance of leaching toxins into the
water.

"However, my own dog had cancer and he was allways given water from
the
tap in the kitchen with copper pipes. He also had good healthcare
and a
reasonably varied diet. Many things in our environment can increase
the
risk of cancer, but for most who develop it no single thing caused
it,
instead the effect was an accumulation of many things working
together.
Unfortunately there are no certainties in life, anybody regardless
of
age, lifestyle and environment can get cancer."

In other words, anecdotes of single events are often not very good
at
proving causality when so many other factors come into play.

again, the quoted data mentions no other known causes of cancer for
the dog,
just the copper

The quote in fact mentions "[m]any things in our environment can
increase the risk of cancer." The dog got cancer despite the copper
water supply, despite not being watered from a plastic hose, therefore
from one or several of the "many things."

One need go no farther than the first of that author's quotes in that
gardenweb thread to see if he thinks copper caused his dog's cancer:

"I drink hundereds of gallons of water from these pipes every year,
cook with it and wash in it. I'm not comfortable using anything except
copper as it's totally safe and doesn't affect the water." -Bry84.

it is abundantly clear you have not read all the previously cited
information on this issue of copper causing cancer

you are also trying to imply the data available that copper can cause
cancer
is wrong

you are wrong

The paucity of what I have provided is insufficient for you to make so
bold a statement about what I may or may not have read. However, your
inability to divine Bry84's intent from his posts to the gardenweb
thread certainly calls into question your ability to assimilate what
_you_ have read.

From the same thread on gardenweb:

"Copper has well-defined hazards. Plastic is still under
investigation
and it will be a long time before the hazards are as well-known as
copper."

translation: no hazards with pvc (assuming you quote "plastic" as
relevant
to, or meaning, pvc), which is what the available data says

if you can't show data to the contrary, your position to the contrary
is
based on nothing, and it means nothing

Yes, plastic in the context of that quote is PVC or CPVC. So no, your
translation is incorrect: unknown hazards are far different from
hazards proven not to exist.

My position on PVC is that it is most likely to be inert, and that
trace amounts that leach into the water are easy to rinse away. My
position is also that since it is relatively new, we are still serving
as guinea pigs for long-term product testing. The jury is still out.

Conversely, copper is a nutrient, part of a healthy diet when not taken
to excess. Copper from pipes is in most cases well below the
recommended daily requirement for this nutrient. The symptoms of copper
toxicity are well-known and reversible if the source of the excess is
eliminated. So copper pipes may be "the Devil you know."

google copper pipe cancer

copper pipe also causes schizophrenia in humans, as well as other
problems,
already covered in depth in this newsgroup and now available in
the
google
archives

google is your friend

Well, I googled "copper pipe schizophrenia" and the first few hits
seemed to be written by extremist wingnuts, so I quickly got bored
with
it. Googling simply "copper schizophrenia"

you didn't "google copper pipe cancer" (you googled "copper pipe
schizophrenia" and "copper schizophrenia"), then you compared your
googlings
to "google copper pipe cancer", you are a failure at reading
comprehension

Your words: "copper pipe also causes schizophrenia in humans." I don't
believe anybody could construe that as a directive NOT to google
"copper pipe schizophrenia." I was trying to research your claim that
copper pipe causes schizophrenia in humans. I made no comparison
between schizophrenia and cancer; that is your miscomprehending what I
did.

But since you want to drag it out of me, I had also googled "copper
pipe cancer" and found the overwhelming majority of the first pages of
hits to be references to carcinogens in PVC pipes with copper as the
safer alternative, as well as some use of copper compounds in
prevention and treatment of cancer. I didn't think that was the result
you wanted to hear, so I held it back till I could get more specific
links from you.

revealed that in addition to
excess copper, INsufficient copper is a factor and that in some
individuals elevated copper was not a cause but an _effect_ of
their
genetic predisposition (Wilson's disease).

So myself, if the water's been sitting for a few hours or more, I
don't
trust ANY pipe not to leach nasties into my water,
plastic or metal.
Before I use any water for drinking or cooking, I make sure I've
flushed a toilet to clear any standing water in the lateral from
the
main up to the house, then run the faucet for enough time till the
water feels cold. It's no extra effort because there's usually
something to flush in the toilet* and there's usually a dish to
rinse
or some hands to wash in the sink.

all unnecessary with pvc pipe

enjoy your copper if you must, it's very unhealthy, and can cause
cancer
(numerous links posted to substantiate this, research it yourself
further,
no additional info will be offered since it's already here, you just
haven't
read it)

Show me where I said I have copper pipe.

Also, please go ahead and post those links which say that copper pipes
cause cancer (or schizophrenia for that matter). I've read lots of
stuff, but this thread contains only the gardenweb reference, and it is
far from authoritative for or against. It is your claim that copper
pipe causes cancer (and schizophrenia), so you should have those
references handy to back up the claims; it should not be up to me to
research it to make your case for you. My research reveals the opposite
of your claims. For instance the following seem to be from respectable
sources, but they mention cancer only in association with contaminants
other than copper and do not link copper to cancer despite every
opportunity to do so:

http://www4.nationalacademies.org/ne...4?OpenDocument
http://pubs.caes.uga.edu/caespubs/pubcd/c819-8w.html
http://wilkes.edu/~eqc/standards.htm
http://envirocancer.cornell.edu/Fact...7a.drnkwtr.cfm
http://www.e-b-i.net/ebi/contaminants/copper.html

In fact, the last references state "Iron, copper, and zinc are common
heavy metals found in drinking water, but they are not considered
carcinogens" and "Copper is not known to cause cancer." Now, despite
the alleged "respectability" of those sources, I cannot say for sure if
they have been vetted by the process of peer review. Any crackpot can
throw up a website and make it look "respectable." Thus one may have
more confidence in studies published in the peer-reviewed medical
literature available at PubMed:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...arch&DB=pubmed

There I find that in the vast majority of articles that deal with
elevated copper levels and cancer, elevated copper is implicated as a
result of cancer, not the cause. (One should not confuse copper
ingestion with arsenic ingestion or occupational exposure to copper
compounds.) Copper chelation (which induces copper defficiency) has
thus been investigated as a means to slow the progression of cancer. By
the same token, reducing bloodflow to a tumor will also slow the
tumor's growth, but it would be a stretch to claim that blood causes
cancer.

So please provide those links to credible, preferrably peer-reviewed
sources to back up your claims. I've provided a few to back up my
position. As to the issue of toxins leaching from "plastic" pipe, I
leave you with:

http://www.builderswebsource.com/tec...cpvccopper.htm

"Much has been written about the potential health effects of residual
vinyl chloride monomer, or RVCM which is found in trace amounts in
plastics containing Polyvinyl Chloride, including CPVC and PVC pipe.
Proponents and detractors alike continue to debate the long-term health
impact due to extended exposure to RVCM.

"VCM is made by heating ethylene dichlroride (EDC) to 700 degrees F in
the presence of oxygen. VCM is used to produce PVC resins which are
used to make pipe and other materials using a process known as
polymerization. During this process, most, but not all of the VCM is
consumed. Trace amounts remain trapped in the PVC resin where it either
outgasses into the atmosphere, or migrates into food or drink stored in
containers or pipes made of PVC. This remaining chemical is residual
vinyl chloride monomer, or RVCM.

"... However, there is little argument that extended exposure to VCMs
which exceed government standards, can lead to neurological and liver
effects as well as cancer, such as angiosarcoma - a normally rare form
of liver cancer."

The critical thing here is although it clearly says that RVCM leaches
into the water, it falls far short of stating that the levels approach
even a small fraction of carcinogenic.

I'll flush my pipes before I drink from them anyway.

%mod%

P.S. If copper from pipes causes cancer, then megadoses should cause a
clear increase in cancer rate, right? I'll leave it to you to decide if
the following "failure to prove the positive" equates to "proving the
nagative."

Drug Nutr Interact. 1988;5(4):395-401. Influence of copper and
zinc on urethan-induced adenoma development in mice. Blakley BR.
Department of Veterinary Physiological Sciences, University of
Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada.

Female Swiss mice were exposed to zinc chloride (0 to 500 ug/mL) or
copper sulfate (0 to 200 ug/mL) in their drinking water for 15 weeks.
After 3 weeks of the exposure period, the mice were administered
urethan (1.5 mg/g) intraperitoneally. Urethan-induced pulmonary adenoma
formation was evaluated 12 weeks later. Zinc exposure increased the
number of adenomas produced but reduced the mean tumor diameter in the
intermediate treatment groups, 50 and 200 ug/mL. Exposure to copper had
no effect on tumor size or on tumor number. Weight gains in the mice
were not affected by copper or zinc treatment, although a
dose-dependent reduction in water consumption was observed with copper.
Water consumption in mice exposed to zinc was elevated in one treatment
group (50 ug/mL). Urethan-induced sleeping times, which reflect the
rate of urethan excretion, were prolonged by zinc exposure but were
unaffected by copper exposure. This finding suggests that zinc exposure
impairs the elimination of urethan and enhances its carcinogenic
activity, which is manifested by increased tumor formation.

MUADIB=AE wrote:
Personally I think The dog actually ate a lab rat............don;t
lab
rats cause cancer?

( dog aint gonna say if he eats anything outside the supplied diet
either,..........They sneak chocolate when you're not looking too!)

That's it, then. The dog snuck chocolate, the dog got cancer, therefore
chocolate causes cancer. You heard it here first, folks.

%mod%

wrote in message
ups.com...
(snipped)

you apparently have missed out on a tremendous amount of information posted
here recently

rather than repost it, which is what you suggest whether you realize it or
not, google this group (alt.home.repair), as the author, and
copper cancer he
http://www.google.com/advanced_group_search?hl=en

it could only be expected someone would try to champion copper pipe, it is
an industry going down the proverbial drain

and remember
" If your house has copper pipes don't wait for cancer or sc*hizophrenia to
claim a family member. Change all the copper pipe to PVC pla*stic
immediately."
http://curezone.com/clark/home.asp

wrote in message
oups.com...

MUADIB® wrote:
Personally I think The dog actually ate a lab rat............don;t
lab
rats cause cancer?

( dog aint gonna say if he eats anything outside the supplied diet
either,..........They sneak chocolate when you're not looking too!)

That's it, then. The dog snuck chocolate, the dog got cancer, therefore
chocolate causes cancer. You heard it here first, folks.

%mod%

read further in this thread about chocolate poisoning dogs

in fact, limiting your search to "all of the words" copper and "author"
, you will get even more information on the health risks of
copper plumbing
http://www.google.com/advanced_group_search?hl=en

go ahead and try to champion copper pipe, someone else will if you don't,
and by doing so you will save another human from making the same mistake you
are

Personally I think The dog actually ate a lab rat............don;t lab
rats cause cancer?


It's not lab rats that cause cancer, it's research technicians.

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 20:01:40 -0800, "John B" wrote:


wrote
Some have advised sanding the inside of fittings and the outside of
the pipe. This is correct. Also, be sure to ream (deburr) the inside
of the pipe as well.
So are the professional plumbers that rely on solder flux, and rather new,
shiny pipe, remiss in failing to sand their joints?
I haven't performed a comprehensive survey on what professional plumbers do,
on this matter. Perhaps you can enlighten me.
Thanks.

I've not done a survey.
I have seen many jobs where the pipes were not reamed and problems
developed later on with valves and other fittings when chunks came
loose.