OK, just bought a house. My last house I built was a walk out basement, so
the only time my sump pump even went off was when I stuck a hose in it to
test. 6 years and it never filled at all. This house is a standard ranch,
poured basement, with a pump that runs.

My well is 24 inches deep, 17 inches wide. From the base of the well to the
bottom of the single 4" feeder pipe is 12". Then the top of the pipe is 16"
above the bottom of the well, and 8" from the top.

Now yesterday we had one of those weird wisconsin winter thunder storms, with
constant rain all day.

The sump pump was going off about every 90 seconds, running for about 15 or
20 seconds each time. I thought that was way too much. So I kept it from
firing off while I watched it fill at one point, and I saw that once the
water got around 1/2" to 1" above the *bottom* lip of the feeder pipe, it
leveled off and filled very very very slowly after that. In fact, I had it
actually off for about 6 or so hours, and that was how long it took it to
raise up another 5 inches or so.

Once it got that high, I let the pump run again, and it ran until it got down
to the point where the water level around the house was no longer above the
top of the pipe, and was once again hitting equilibrium a little over the
bottom lip.

So here's my questions. This has a floater valve, one of the teathered units
that has the switch that fires when it gets inverted beyond a certain point
from the water rising. But there's not enough there for me to adjust it so it
doesn't run every four or five minutes.

Right now, 24 hours after the rain, it's firing off every four minutes or so.
I measured things a few minutes ago, and here's what I found.

The pump running takes the water down to 6". Then it shuts off. From that
point, it takes the water about 30 seconds to get up to the 13" level (one
inch over the bottom lip of the feeder pipe). from that point, it took longer
than I wanted to stand down there waiting to see it rise even half an inch.

So my questions a

1 Is there any reason that it has to run and try to keep the water *below*
the lip of the feeder pipe?

2 Considering how long it was able to go without running during the rain to
get the water level up to the top of the feeder pipe (which is still 8" below
the lip of the well), is there anything wrong with setting it to run far less
often, but just for longer? I'd rather have it fire off every four or five
hours during a storm and run for 5 minutes or something than have it do the
every 90 seconds running. That frequency just seems like it's begging for a
burned out motor.

3 Is there any level I should not be comfortable with it rising to before
it kicks off the sump pump?

4 I hear a thump a bit when the backup valve engages after the pump is done
(as well as the rattling a bit of the pipe going through the floor joists
without any padding there - gotta fix that). They have the valve about 5 or 6
inches *above* floor level, so when it stops, the bottom of the pipe below
that valve empties back, and fills with air. So the next time the pump kicks
off, there's 16 inches of air in the pipe, and you can hear the air as it
bubbles through when the pump starts. Should I have that valve lower, like
right off the top of the pump, so that there's no air in the pipe? Or does
that one way valve have to be above the lip for some reason?

5 It rises about 10 feet before going horizontal out of the house. And with
the rate of water I cited above, what should I look at for a replacement? I
had an issue with the float valve being kind of "sticky" yesterday when I was
testing things out, and I'm sure it's just one of the cheaper ones that
builders use to maximize their profits. I'd like to replace it with something
quiet. Considering the rate of flow once the bottom of the unit fills up, I'm
hoping I can get away with one of the smaller HP units that I would assume
are more likely to be quieter? With the description above, does anyone have
any suggestions for what I could get that would be more silent than this one
I have now?

Thanks for any help. I'm also going to be dealing with a backup unit (one of
the battery ones most likely) next spring to make sure I'm covered when
spring hits, since it's not unheard of to lose power around here (southeast
wisconsin).


--
John

"John" wrote in message

The sump pump was going off about every 90 seconds, running for about 15
or
20 seconds each time. I thought that was way too much.

Yes, you thought right.




1 Is there any reason that it has to run and try to keep the water
*below*
the lip of the feeder pipe?

Not that I'm aware of.


2 Considering how long it was able to go without running during the rain
to
get the water level up to the top of the feeder pipe (which is still 8"
below
the lip of the well), is there anything wrong with setting it to run far
less
often, but just for longer? I'd rather have it fire off every four or five
hours during a storm and run for 5 minutes or something than have it do
the
every 90 seconds running. That frequency just seems like it's begging for
a
burned out motor.

Every motor has a duty cycle. Most have a maximum number or starts per hour.
If you can have it start less often, that would prolong the life.



3 Is there any level I should not be comfortable with it rising to
before
it kicks off the sump pump?

If your feet get wet, it is starting too late.


4 I hear a thump a bit when the backup valve engages after the pump is
done
(as well as the rattling a bit of the pipe going through the floor joists
without any padding there - gotta fix that). They have the valve about 5
or 6
inches *above* floor level, so when it stops, the bottom of the pipe below
that valve empties back, and fills with air. So the next time the pump
kicks
off, there's 16 inches of air in the pipe, and you can hear the air as it
bubbles through when the pump starts. Should I have that valve lower, like
right off the top of the pump, so that there's no air in the pipe? Or does
that one way valve have to be above the lip for some reason?

All the pumps in our shop have a foot valve. As the name implies, it is on
the bottom and keeps the column of water above it. Never a dry start for
hte pump (unless the foot check valve fails)


5 It rises about 10 feet before going horizontal out of the house. And
with
the rate of water I cited above, what should I look at for a replacement?
I
had an issue with the float valve being kind of "sticky" yesterday when I
was
testing things out, and I'm sure it's just one of the cheaper ones that
builders use to maximize their profits. I'd like to replace it with
something
quiet. Considering the rate of flow once the bottom of the unit fills up,
I'm
hoping I can get away with one of the smaller HP units that I would assume
are more likely to be quieter? With the description above, does anyone
have
any suggestions for what I could get that would be more silent than this
one
I have now?

We use both Zoeler and Teal submerisbles that are very quiet. I have one
Teal that is above the water and screams like hell when it starts, screams a
bit less once it is pumping. OK in a boiler room, but not in a house. Lok
at www.grainger.com or www.mcmaster.com for some other styles.

1 Is there any reason that it has to run and try to keep the water
*below*
the lip of the feeder pipe?

If your basement drains okay it shouldn't matter.
My old basement used to flood in some areas if I didn't keep the level low
in the crock.

2 Considering how long it was able to go without running during the rain
to
get the water level up to the top of the feeder pipe (which is still 8"
below
the lip of the well), is there anything wrong with setting it to run far
less
often, but just for longer? I'd rather have it fire off every four or five
hours during a storm and run for 5 minutes or something than have it do
the
every 90 seconds running. That frequency just seems like it's begging for
a
burned out motor.

Seems like a good idea. If you want to raise the whole pump, you could
probably do that also.

3 Is there any level I should not be comfortable with it rising to
before
it kicks off the sump pump?

Whatever level keeps your basement dry.

4 I hear a thump a bit when the backup valve engages after the pump is
done
(as well as the rattling a bit of the pipe going through the floor joists
without any padding there - gotta fix that). They have the valve about 5
or 6
inches *above* floor level, so when it stops, the bottom of the pipe below
that valve empties back, and fills with air. So the next time the pump
kicks
off, there's 16 inches of air in the pipe, and you can hear the air as it
bubbles through when the pump starts. Should I have that valve lower, like
right off the top of the pump, so that there's no air in the pipe? Or does
that one way valve have to be above the lip for some reason?

The pump has to push against that weight, which can be difficult when the
pump is just starting up and torque is low.
I had a pump that actually required a small hole in the pipe or the pump
couldn't start. The advantage was that the starting current was very low
and more generator friendly. I suspect it also had a longer life.

5 It rises about 10 feet before going horizontal out of the house. And
with
the rate of water I cited above, what should I look at for a replacement?
I
had an issue with the float valve being kind of "sticky" yesterday when I
was
testing things out, and I'm sure it's just one of the cheaper ones that
builders use to maximize their profits. I'd like to replace it with
something
quiet. Considering the rate of flow once the bottom of the unit fills up,
I'm
hoping I can get away with one of the smaller HP units that I would assume
are more likely to be quieter? With the description above, does anyone
have
any suggestions for what I could get that would be more silent than this
one
I have now?

You get a fair amount of water. Having had problems in the past (solved by
moving to a house that doesn't need a sump pump...) I wouldn't press my
luck.

Thanks for any help. I'm also going to be dealing with a backup unit (one
of
the battery ones most likely) next spring to make sure I'm covered when
spring hits, since it's not unheard of to lose power around here
(southeast
wisconsin).

Absolutely. Unless your current experience is as bad as it gets, a backup
is pretty essential. It also protects you in case your pump breaks, which
they do.

On 1/3/2006 9:15:50 PM, "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:

We use both Zoeler and Teal submerisbles that are very quiet. I have one
Teal that is above the water and screams like hell when it starts, screams a
bit less once it is pumping. OK in a boiler room, but not in a house. Lok
at www.grainger.com or www.mcmaster.com for some other styles.


Thanks for the quick, informative reply. Time to pick up a Zoeler.


--
John

That pipe is probably connected to a network of pipes under the floor. If
you raise the pump to where the pipes fill every time, the pump will run
longer, but if you do that and the eclectic goes off, then you have a lot
less time before flooding happens.

"John" wrote in message
...
OK, just bought a house. My last house I built was a walk out basement, so
the only time my sump pump even went off was when I stuck a hose in it to
test. 6 years and it never filled at all. This house is a standard ranch,
poured basement, with a pump that runs.

My well is 24 inches deep, 17 inches wide. From the base of the well to
the
bottom of the single 4" feeder pipe is 12". Then the top of the pipe is
16"
above the bottom of the well, and 8" from the top.

Now yesterday we had one of those weird wisconsin winter thunder storms,
with
constant rain all day.

The sump pump was going off about every 90 seconds, running for about 15
or
20 seconds each time. I thought that was way too much. So I kept it from
firing off while I watched it fill at one point, and I saw that once the
water got around 1/2" to 1" above the *bottom* lip of the feeder pipe, it
leveled off and filled very very very slowly after that. In fact, I had it
actually off for about 6 or so hours, and that was how long it took it to
raise up another 5 inches or so.

Once it got that high, I let the pump run again, and it ran until it got
down
to the point where the water level around the house was no longer above
the
top of the pipe, and was once again hitting equilibrium a little over the
bottom lip.

So here's my questions. This has a floater valve, one of the teathered
units
that has the switch that fires when it gets inverted beyond a certain
point
from the water rising. But there's not enough there for me to adjust it so
it
doesn't run every four or five minutes.

Right now, 24 hours after the rain, it's firing off every four minutes or
so.
I measured things a few minutes ago, and here's what I found.

The pump running takes the water down to 6". Then it shuts off. From that
point, it takes the water about 30 seconds to get up to the 13" level (one
inch over the bottom lip of the feeder pipe). from that point, it took
longer
than I wanted to stand down there waiting to see it rise even half an
inch.

So my questions a

1 Is there any reason that it has to run and try to keep the water
*below*
the lip of the feeder pipe?

2 Considering how long it was able to go without running during the rain
to
get the water level up to the top of the feeder pipe (which is still 8"
below
the lip of the well), is there anything wrong with setting it to run far
less
often, but just for longer? I'd rather have it fire off every four or five
hours during a storm and run for 5 minutes or something than have it do
the
every 90 seconds running. That frequency just seems like it's begging for
a
burned out motor.

3 Is there any level I should not be comfortable with it rising to
before
it kicks off the sump pump?

4 I hear a thump a bit when the backup valve engages after the pump is
done
(as well as the rattling a bit of the pipe going through the floor joists
without any padding there - gotta fix that). They have the valve about 5
or 6
inches *above* floor level, so when it stops, the bottom of the pipe below
that valve empties back, and fills with air. So the next time the pump
kicks
off, there's 16 inches of air in the pipe, and you can hear the air as it
bubbles through when the pump starts. Should I have that valve lower, like
right off the top of the pump, so that there's no air in the pipe? Or does
that one way valve have to be above the lip for some reason?

5 It rises about 10 feet before going horizontal out of the house. And
with
the rate of water I cited above, what should I look at for a replacement?
I
had an issue with the float valve being kind of "sticky" yesterday when I
was
testing things out, and I'm sure it's just one of the cheaper ones that
builders use to maximize their profits. I'd like to replace it with
something
quiet. Considering the rate of flow once the bottom of the unit fills up,
I'm
hoping I can get away with one of the smaller HP units that I would assume
are more likely to be quieter? With the description above, does anyone
have
any suggestions for what I could get that would be more silent than this
one
I have now?

Thanks for any help. I'm also going to be dealing with a backup unit (one
of
the battery ones most likely) next spring to make sure I'm covered when
spring hits, since it's not unheard of to lose power around here
(southeast
wisconsin).


--
John

John wrote:
....

Thanks for any help. I'm also going to be dealing with a backup unit
(one of the battery ones most likely) next spring to make sure I'm
covered when spring hits, since it's not unheard of to lose power
around here (southeast wisconsin).

I have two comments.

First I suggest you consider a water powered pump rather than battery
for backup. Battery power will not last all that long and batteries get old
so a few years down the road you may only get a few minutes of protection
from the battery powered backup.

Second, while reading your message, something kept whispering in my ear
"Check the foot valve" or what ever kind of back flow valve(s) you have. It
just sounded a little too much like you are getting a leakage coming back
into the sump from the water you just pumped out. Nothing certain, just a
feeling I have about it.

--
Joseph Meehan

Dia duit

Water powered is best but with power outages if you have a 240 Well you
have nothing. www.zoeller.com or www.basepump.com.
They outperform battery in every way with good city water. Batteries
last 4-8 years, what if power goes out and batteries last 3 minutes,
plus they just dont last in Gallon Per Day or gpH.

But you have not determined if you need a pump yet, if house will leak
at all or is it possibly gutters , downspouts , grading, etc are wrong.
Turn it off and see what happens after a few days, you likely have a
fairly nearby water table but it could be runoff. Find out water table
depth. Not running it might make basement humid, ok in winter, but maybe
level is below floor leak point on average and only needed March through
June, You pay alot to pump out the water in Kwh. You can raise level and
shutoff point, it is your experiment depending on your water table .

Any way to use a gravity drain? people miss this all the time wanting
to avoid outside digging. but its really the best way.

big storms equal most need for pump, and most likely power failure

My next BIG job here is a interior drain with gravity drain if theres
enough fall.

once the basement is dry its time for a new high efficency furnace,
with air