I have a sump bump in the basement that generally only operates when
we get a lot of rain.

When we get particularly heavy rains (most recently 2" in 24 hours) I
get water in different parts of the basement even though the sump is
pumping regularly. The water appears to be coming up from the floor.

The top of the sump pit appears to be at the same level of the
basement floor. The float is set very high, so that the pump does not
turn on until the pit is almost completely full (less than 1" from the
top). Would setting the float a bit lower cause the pump to get rid of
the water before it rises to the level of the floor? During heavy
rains the pump runs about every 5 minutes.

Maybe one pump is inadequate and I need another one in a different
part of the basement? Or maybe it is not deep enough?

The drainage outside the house can definitely be improved. The ground
is sloped away from the house and the gutters extend around 6 feet,
but I have a feeling that roof water is being deposited too close to
the house. How much of an improvement can I expect by improving this
situation (e.g. using a dry well or french drain) since the issue
appears related to the height of the water table?

I do plan to get a professional to check everything and give advice,
but I really want to learn as much as I can first. Any help would be
greatly appreciated.

--
Dave

DaveR wrote:
I have a sump bump in the basement that generally only operates when
we get a lot of rain.

When we get particularly heavy rains (most recently 2" in 24 hours) I
get water in different parts of the basement even though the sump is
pumping regularly. The water appears to be coming up from the floor.

The top of the sump pit appears to be at the same level of the
basement floor. The float is set very high, so that the pump does not
turn on until the pit is almost completely full (less than 1" from the
top). Would setting the float a bit lower cause the pump to get rid of
the water before it rises to the level of the floor? During heavy
rains the pump runs about every 5 minutes.

Maybe one pump is inadequate and I need another one in a different
part of the basement? Or maybe it is not deep enough?

The drainage outside the house can definitely be improved. The ground
is sloped away from the house and the gutters extend around 6 feet,
but I have a feeling that roof water is being deposited too close to
the house. How much of an improvement can I expect by improving this
situation (e.g. using a dry well or french drain) since the issue
appears related to the height of the water table?

I do plan to get a professional to check everything and give advice,
but I really want to learn as much as I can first. Any help would be
greatly appreciated.

--
Dave

Your water level is way too high. Mine is set to turn on just below the
drainage tile bottom, on the side of the sump.

Your float is too high and setting it lower should be your first try in
fixing it. However... I bet if you set the float low enough, the pump will
run almost continuously. That is not good either. How big is your pump?

Odds are your drains are clogged up. My basement was fine until we had a
flood, then I had a problem similar to yours becasue the flood filled the
drains with debris. I solved it by installing a second sump where the water
was worst.

It was years ago, but my recollection is that cleaning the drains was
impractical.

What fills the pit if you have no drain tile, how deep is the pit and
pump to the bottom.

"The drainage outside the house can definitely be improved. The ground
is sloped away from the house and the gutters extend around 6 feet,
but I have a feeling that roof water is being deposited too close to
the house. How much of an improvement can I expect by improving this
situation (e.g. using a dry well or french drain) since the issue
appears related to the height of the water table? "

These are contradictory. If the drainage outside can definitely be
improved, that doesn't sound like a water table issue. I'd lower the
float level so the pump comes on when the water level is still quite
low. See what happens, it's the easiest thing to try. If it works set
very low, you could then try raising it a bit to decrease the cycling.
A second sump pump could help, depending on if the water is showing up
at areas farthest from the current one.

As far as what's going on outside, I'd get out there during a heavy
rain and take a good look. It's the best way to see where water is
running, pooling, etc. You may be surprised at what you find. I'm not
a big fan of dry wells, unless absolutely necessary because there's
nowhere else for the water to go. The first line of defense is to
channel the water away from the house as far as possible. Six feet is
a good start, 10 would be better. Make sure there is good pitch, like
3/4" per foot away from the house and that there is nothing in the way,
like plastic landscape borders, etc.

You seem to say you have no tile system and it is a interior house pump,
if so your main to the street is clogged, either way remove the outside
cover and see if it is backing up when pump shuts off. A tree root
blocked mine, rodding to street fixed it.

If your sump pump is set to turn on at less than an inch from the top, this
means that the gravel (if you have gravel) under the concrete is full of
water, and the water is saturating the concrete floor from below. If you
have a low area in the concrete floor the water will seep into this area as
it may be below your water level. Lower your turn on level so that it is at
least a couple or more inches below your concrete bottom, more if you have
the room. Your pump will run continuously for a few hours to a few days
draining the water from under your floor. It may and should slow down after
that.


"DaveR" wrote in message
...
I have a sump bump in the basement that generally only operates when
we get a lot of rain.

When we get particularly heavy rains (most recently 2" in 24 hours) I
get water in different parts of the basement even though the sump is
pumping regularly. The water appears to be coming up from the floor.

The top of the sump pit appears to be at the same level of the
basement floor. The float is set very high, so that the pump does not
turn on until the pit is almost completely full (less than 1" from the
top). Would setting the float a bit lower cause the pump to get rid of
the water before it rises to the level of the floor? During heavy
rains the pump runs about every 5 minutes.

Maybe one pump is inadequate and I need another one in a different
part of the basement? Or maybe it is not deep enough?

The drainage outside the house can definitely be improved. The ground
is sloped away from the house and the gutters extend around 6 feet,
but I have a feeling that roof water is being deposited too close to
the house. How much of an improvement can I expect by improving this
situation (e.g. using a dry well or french drain) since the issue
appears related to the height of the water table?

I do plan to get a professional to check everything and give advice,
but I really want to learn as much as I can first. Any help would be
greatly appreciated.

--
Dave

On Fri, 1 Apr 2005 12:26:57 -0500, "Eric Tonks"
etonks@sunstormADD-DOT-COM wrote:

If your sump pump is set to turn on at less than an inch from the top, this
means that the gravel (if you have gravel) under the concrete is full of
water, and the water is saturating the concrete floor from below. If you
have a low area in the concrete floor the water will seep into this area as
it may be below your water level. Lower your turn on level so that it is at
least a couple or more inches below your concrete bottom, more if you have
the room. Your pump will run continuously for a few hours to a few days
draining the water from under your floor. It may and should slow down after
that.

Honestly I don't know the details of my installation since it was here
when I bought the house.

The pump is definitely set too high, as the well is filled to the top
before the pump turns on. Then when it does, it only empties the well
halfway. I seem to remember that it was different before; I am pretty
certain it used to drain nearly all the way to the bottom.

I also notice that the pump is shifting inside the well; it is not
fastened to the bottom. Again I don't remember if it was always like
this or if this is new.

The float is attached to a short wire that is attached to a clamp. How
do I lower the turn on level?

I need to be extra careful now because they're expecting more
torrential rains this weekend. I would love to adjust the pump now but
if I somehow render it inoperable, I'll be in lots of trouble...

On Fri, 1 Apr 2005 10:41:43 -0600, (m Ransley)
wrote:

What fills the pit if you have no drain tile, how deep is the pit and
pump to the bottom.

Honestly I do not know if there is drain tile. I just see the sump pit
with holes in it and water flowing in from the sides. If I peek to the
ouside of the pit I just see concrete, filled with water.

Clearly it turns on too high, but I'm not sure how to adjust it...

On Fri, 1 Apr 2005 12:26:57 -0500, "Eric Tonks"
etonks@sunstormADD-DOT-COM wrote:

If your sump pump is set to turn on at less than an inch from the top, this
means that the gravel (if you have gravel) under the concrete is full of
water, and the water is saturating the concrete floor from below. If you
have a low area in the concrete floor the water will seep into this area as
it may be below your water level. Lower your turn on level so that it is at
least a couple or more inches below your concrete bottom, more if you have
the room.

OK, I figured out how to adjust it by shortening the cable to the
float. However, I've made it as short as I can without risking the
float catching on the pump itself, and still the water gets almost to
the top before it pumps.

I guess I need a new float switch, or maybe a new pump...

I went out and bought a new sump pump.

This one empties the pit when it is about halfway full. Hopefully
that's not a problem in the heavy rains when the pit is filling very
rapidly?

Thanks for everyone's advice...

Dave,

A few suggestions and long-winded comments:

1) Ideally, your sump pump is tied into underground tile from a
perimeter drain system. When you get the water level in the sump
very low, then you can do some investigating to determine if this
is true. You should be able to see the circular cutouts in the
plastic sump basin where the tile connect to it. In a corner
installation, you will typically have 2 tie-ins with one tile
entering parallel to each of the two walls forming the corner.

2) If you anticipate heavy spring rains and/or you already have a
problem, then you want to force the pump to evacuate as much water
as possible from the sump. Set the float or override the float if
necessary. If you override the float, then you need to be in the
basement nearby to make certain that you don't run the pump dry.
You can override the float very easily - just get a piece of string
and tie up the float so that it can't lower (temporarily!).

3) The gravel bed under your concrete basement floor functions as a
buffer zone for water. When you evacuate as much water as possible
from this area and from the soil under your house, then you have a
cushion for the next storm. Generally, ground water must fill these
buffer areas before the water can begin to infiltrate your basement.
And with good perimeter drain tile and a properly functioning sump
pump system, you will usually be able to remove water from these
buffer areas fast enough to prevent them from overfilling during and
after a heavy rain. Think of the area under your basement floor as
a huge drywell. Note that this buffering function is dependent upon
how well your sump pump is evacuating water under the entire basement
floor and the surrounding soil. This will depend upon the depth of
the gravel under your basement, the existence and current quality
of the perimeter drain system, soil type, etc.

The more you lower the water level in these buffer areas, the more you
are paying in electricity for the extra cushion of safety that you
achieve. Personally, I feel that having the sump pump run more and
avoiding a basement flood is well worth the extra bit of cost. We
all pay for auto insurance, life insurance and home insurance. Setting
your sump float to the lowest possible setting is just one more form
of insurance.

4) You obviously have had a sump pump & float system which wasn't
functioning optimally. You also may have no drain tile feeding the
sump or a tile system which is clogged. If you have drain tile and
you continue to have problems, then a "Roto Rooter" type of company
may be able to come in and examine your tile system with a miniature
camera. They may also be able to clear some blockages in the drain
tile system, or locate areas of collapsed drain tile and address them
(jackhammer, etc.)

5) For now, you should set you sump pump to the lowest reasonable
water-level setting and see what happens. When the sump pit water
level is low, examine the pit to see if you have drain tile coming
into the pit. You can also hook up your old sump pump to function
as a second pump if there is enough room in the pit. Buy some cheap
flexible corrugated black plastic pipe so that the old pump can pump
water to a safe location outdoors via a basement window, or have it
drain into your basement drain or utility sink if you have city hookup
and not a septic system for your sewer drains. Remove the float from
the old pump and lock the remaining float arm in the "always running"
mode. Using the old sump pump will double your pumping capability
when you need it. This will provide you with valuable information
about how well you can alleviate you water problems via the single
sump pit that you have.

6) If you continue to have problems, then you must:
a) Clear blocked drain tile if that is a problem as discussed above.
b) Address all outside issues if possible. I have a very nice
neighbor who is uphill from me. He had one roof drain which was
dumping directly on the ground and the water was running onto my
property & eventually to my basement. He fixed the problem by
rerouting the water and helped me considerably. As you have
guessed in your situation, it is possible for your water being
dumped 6' from your house to still contribute to your problem.
Then again, maybe not.
The water entering your basement can be coming from far away, but
it can also be coming from roof water that you are dumping
6' from your foundation. The biggest problem about addressing
basement water issues is that we are forced to intelligently guess
about what is happening out-of-sight and underground.
c) You may need to install perimeter drains to dump into the sump pit.
This is expensive. You can cut cost by hiring moonlighters from a
basement company who will work off the books on a weekend. You
can do it yourself if you are ambitious. The cost of materials is
rather modest - this is labor intensive. Professionals will want
to do a "complete system", whereas you can experiment with
partial solutions. Adding drain tile along one or both of the two
walls that would "feed" you sump pump may help tremendously.
You can add drain tile in stages along additional walls as needed.
d) You may need a second sump pit and pump on the opposite side
of the basement. As above, this is a bit expensive to hire out,
but can be done rather cheaply. I intend to install 2 sump pumps
& pits this summer with help from my son. The cost for 2 will be
just a few hundred dollars since I already have perimeter drain
tile but no sump pumps.
e) Use caution when taking the advise of "professionals." Obviously,
it is difficult for those who sell basement waterproofing systems
to be objective when advising you. This is an industry which makes
a living through scare tactics and oversell. It is extremely common
for homeowners to pay $10,000 or more when the actual fix that
was needed could have been done for less than $1000.
Also, remember that a 5 year, 10 year or lifetime warranty may be
totally worthless if the company that did the work goes bankrupt,
changes hands, restructures, etc.
Even if you don't anticipate hiring such companies, it is extremely
worthwhile to observe how they operate when installing systems
for neighbors, friends and relatives. I have learned considerably
by observing in many such cases. The most recent example was
my next-door neighbor who probably paid between $8,000 and
$12,000 for a "total system" whereas he and I could have addressed
95% of his problem with just one half day's labor and $25 in materials.
From my observations, the folks who are "professionals" form
companys with extremely poorly paid "grunts" who do the heavy manual
labor and who are very poor at evaluating situations that they encounter.
Project supervisors aren't much more astute. Even the sales
reps and company bosses are rather obtuse in evaluating situations.
They are experts at following a scipt which involves over-engineering
every situation. Think of the car mechanic who will guarantee his work
when fixing an auto which has an engine which isn't performing optimally.
The mechanic is an expert at replacing spark plug wires, spark plugs,
air filters, pcv valves, etc. He is also an expert at remove fuel
injection systems or carb systems and sending them our for rebuilds.
Etc., etc.
Of course, when he replaces every replacable component in the fuel
delivery and ignition systems, the car will probably run much better than
before. But you may be paying $1200 for a problem which could have
been fixed for $50. I have seen auto shops which specialize in such
extreme approaches to every situation in which an auto runs poorly.
Sadly, the approach of almost ever "pro" toward basement water
problems is very similar.

Good luck,
Gideon

On Sun, 03 Apr 2005 09:15:58 GMT, "Gideon" wrote:

1) Ideally, your sump pump is tied into underground tile from a
perimeter drain system.

I am almost sure this is not the case. The former owner was an avid
(yet not very proficient) do-it-yourself'er. It seems he just cut a
hole in the concrete, dropped a plastic bin in there, and drilled some
holes.

2) If you anticipate heavy spring rains and/or you already have a
problem, then you want to force the pump to evacuate as much water
as possible from the sump.

We had a massive storm this weekend and the new pump kept up fine,
taking about 2 minutes between each evacuation.

3) The gravel bed under your concrete basement floor functions as a
buffer zone for water. When you evacuate as much water as possible
from this area and from the soil under your house, then you have a
cushion for the next storm.

Maybe this explains why I STILL had floor water after this storm, even
just a few feet away from the sump pit. We had a major storm just 5
days earlier, and the new pump had only been doing its job for about
18 hours before the new rain came.

While the pump did keep one side of the basement TOTALLY dry (which is
a first) it did not seem to help on the other side. I believe poor
storm drainage on that side of the house is to blame (the gutters only
extend about 6' and the ground is not sloped as far as it could be; my
options are limited since we are close to the neighbor's property).

And with good perimeter drain tile...

This is my main concern; that there is no drain tile.

As you have
guessed in your situation, it is possible for your water being
dumped 6' from your house to still contribute to your problem.

Yes I believe so. We have a concrete path about 6' away from the "bad"
side of the house that is seriously water damaged. The leaders drain
directly onto this concrete. I tried extending the leaders a few feet
beyond the concrete path, and it made things worse. So I believe the
concrete path is actually slowing down water entry into the ground, if
that makes any sense. The other side of the path has ground sloping a
bit towards the path, which I know is not good.

I have plans to get rid of the path and do a better job of grading the
land, but if the path is indeed serving to slow-down the water, I will
need something else, like gravel or a french drain. I'm quite a novice
at all this, but I'm learning...

Thanks so much for your detailed response. It is appreciated!!

--
Dave