I have a siemens panel, and I got some #4 stranded copper wire to
connect to the ground rods, and water pipes. But when I go to connect
it to the ground/neutral bar, it is too big(just a little too big) to
fit in the slots. Is there another peice that is supposed to be for
this, or do I need to go back and get solid #4 for the ground wire (and
will solid #4 fit).

Thanks!

I'm pretty sure, if you don't distort the end of the wire it should just fit
in the terminals, but you can always pick up a ground detail from a supply


"Ed" wrote in message
ups.com...
I have a siemens panel, and I got some #4 stranded copper wire to
connect to the ground rods, and water pipes. But when I go to connect
it to the ground/neutral bar, it is too big(just a little too big) to
fit in the slots. Is there another peice that is supposed to be for
this, or do I need to go back and get solid #4 for the ground wire (and
will solid #4 fit).

Thanks!

Ed wrote:

I have a siemens panel, and I got some #4 stranded copper wire to
connect to the ground rods, and water pipes. But when I go to connect
it to the ground/neutral bar, it is too big(just a little too big) to
fit in the slots. Is there another peice that is supposed to be for
this, or do I need to go back and get solid #4 for the ground wire (and
will solid #4 fit).

Thanks!

You can divide the strands into two bundles (like a Y) and connect in
two adjacent slots if you need to.

Pete C.

Check with your electrical supply store. There's an adapter block ( I don't
know what it's called) available that takes up 2 spaces on the ground bar
and has a larger lug on it.

But, as another poster mentioned, #4 should fit. Try running the screw
almost all the way out. #4 wire fit my CH panel, but it took some effort to
get it in there.



"Ed" wrote in message
ups.com...
I have a siemens panel, and I got some #4 stranded copper wire to
connect to the ground rods, and water pipes. But when I go to connect
it to the ground/neutral bar, it is too big(just a little too big) to
fit in the slots. Is there another peice that is supposed to be for
this, or do I need to go back and get solid #4 for the ground wire (and
will solid #4 fit).

Thanks!

On 9 Aug 2006 11:07:44 -0700, "Ed" wrote:

I have a siemens panel, and I got some #4 stranded copper wire to
connect to the ground rods, and water pipes. But when I go to connect
it to the ground/neutral bar, it is too big(just a little too big) to
fit in the slots. Is there another peice that is supposed to be for
this, or do I need to go back and get solid #4 for the ground wire (and
will solid #4 fit).

Thanks!

imho:

Go to a electrial supply shop and get an add-on neutral lug for your
panel, remember to follow all electrial codes.

Example of what one looks like: http://www.urlbee.com?7778

or google "neutral lug"

hth,

tom

Pete C. wrote:
Ed wrote:
I have a siemens panel, and I got some #4 stranded copper wire to
connect to the ground rods, and water pipes. But when I go to connect
it to the ground/neutral bar, it is too big(just a little too big) to
fit in the slots. Is there another peice that is supposed to be for
this, or do I need to go back and get solid #4 for the ground wire (and
will solid #4 fit).

Thanks!

You can divide the strands into two bundles (like a Y) and connect in
two adjacent slots if you need to.

Pete C.

No competent electrical inspector will ever except that. Buy the
correct lug and install it.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

"Tom Horne, Electrician" wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
Ed wrote:
I have a siemens panel, and I got some #4 stranded copper wire to
connect to the ground rods, and water pipes. But when I go to connect
it to the ground/neutral bar, it is too big(just a little too big) to
fit in the slots. Is there another peice that is supposed to be for
this, or do I need to go back and get solid #4 for the ground wire (and
will solid #4 fit).

Thanks!

You can divide the strands into two bundles (like a Y) and connect in
two adjacent slots if you need to.

Pete C.

No competent electrical inspector will ever except that. Buy the
correct lug and install it.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

Bull****!

There is no reduction in current capacity and there is no safety issue.
There certainly would be an issue if you trimmed of a few strands to fit
an undersized hole, but in this case you are maintaining the full
capacity of the wire.

Pete C.

On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 16:11:53 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

"Tom Horne, Electrician" wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
Ed wrote:
I have a siemens panel, and I got some #4 stranded copper wire to
connect to the ground rods, and water pipes. But when I go to connect
it to the ground/neutral bar, it is too big(just a little too big) to
fit in the slots. Is there another peice that is supposed to be for
this, or do I need to go back and get solid #4 for the ground wire (and
will solid #4 fit).

Thanks!

You can divide the strands into two bundles (like a Y) and connect in
two adjacent slots if you need to.

Pete C.

No competent electrical inspector will ever except that. Buy the
correct lug and install it.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

Bull****!

There is no reduction in current capacity and there is no safety issue.
There certainly would be an issue if you trimmed of a few strands to fit
an undersized hole, but in this case you are maintaining the full
capacity of the wire.

Pete C.


Isn't there a minimum size wire before you are allowed to parallel
conductors?

tom

Tom The Great wrote:

On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 16:11:53 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

"Tom Horne, Electrician" wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
Ed wrote:
I have a siemens panel, and I got some #4 stranded copper wire to
connect to the ground rods, and water pipes. But when I go to connect
it to the ground/neutral bar, it is too big(just a little too big) to
fit in the slots. Is there another peice that is supposed to be for
this, or do I need to go back and get solid #4 for the ground wire (and
will solid #4 fit).

Thanks!

You can divide the strands into two bundles (like a Y) and connect in
two adjacent slots if you need to.

Pete C.

No competent electrical inspector will ever except that. Buy the
correct lug and install it.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

Bull****!

There is no reduction in current capacity and there is no safety issue.
There certainly would be an issue if you trimmed of a few strands to fit
an undersized hole, but in this case you are maintaining the full
capacity of the wire.

Pete C.

Isn't there a minimum size wire before you are allowed to parallel
conductors?

tom

It's not parallel conductors, it's a spread termination.

Pete C.

wrote:

On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 02:23:53 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

It's not parallel conductors, it's a spread termination.

It may work but it is still a violation. 110.3(B) if nothing else

Care to explain that? The listed equipment (the panel) is being used as
specified with a conductor of a gauge within the specified range
terminated in each neutral / ground bar position.

Pete C.

Fundamentally I tend to agree with your premise, however you could take it
to the absurd, like splitting 4/0 among eight or so terminals. I think the
intention of the code is that equipment should be used as intended by the
manufacturer. Since the manufacturer's make lugs of all sizes, buying the
proper sized one would seem more reasonable to me. There is also the
"workman like manner" rule


"Pete C." wrote in message
...
Ed wrote:

I have a siemens panel, and I got some #4 stranded copper wire to
connect to the ground rods, and water pipes. But when I go to connect
it to the ground/neutral bar, it is too big(just a little too big) to
fit in the slots. Is there another peice that is supposed to be for
this, or do I need to go back and get solid #4 for the ground wire (and
will solid #4 fit).

Thanks!

You can divide the strands into two bundles (like a Y) and connect in
two adjacent slots if you need to.

Pete C.

Pete C. wrote:
"Tom Horne, Electrician" wrote:
Pete C. wrote:
Ed wrote:
I have a siemens panel, and I got some #4 stranded copper wire to
connect to the ground rods, and water pipes. But when I go to connect
it to the ground/neutral bar, it is too big(just a little too big) to
fit in the slots. Is there another peice that is supposed to be for
this, or do I need to go back and get solid #4 for the ground wire (and
will solid #4 fit).

Thanks!
You can divide the strands into two bundles (like a Y) and connect in
two adjacent slots if you need to.

Pete C.
No competent electrical inspector will ever except that. Buy the
correct lug and install it.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

Bull****!

There is no reduction in current capacity and there is no safety issue.
There certainly would be an issue if you trimmed of a few strands to fit
an undersized hole, but in this case you are maintaining the full
capacity of the wire.

Pete C.

Your opinion that it is BS does not change the fact that no competent
electrical inspector will sign off on such an installation. The US NEC
requires that equipment be installed and used in accordance with any
instructions included in the listing or labeling. The UL white book
contains the listings and the sizes of wire that each listed terminal
are tested to terminate. You're wilderness engineering solution will
not pass inspection.
--
Tom Horne

Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to.
We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you.

110.3 Examination, Identification, Installation, and Use of Equipment.
(B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed
and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or
labeling.

"Thomas D. Horne, FF EMT" wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
"Tom Horne, Electrician" wrote:
Pete C. wrote:
Ed wrote:
I have a siemens panel, and I got some #4 stranded copper wire to
connect to the ground rods, and water pipes. But when I go to connect
it to the ground/neutral bar, it is too big(just a little too big) to
fit in the slots. Is there another peice that is supposed to be for
this, or do I need to go back and get solid #4 for the ground wire (and
will solid #4 fit).

Thanks!
You can divide the strands into two bundles (like a Y) and connect in
two adjacent slots if you need to.

Pete C.
No competent electrical inspector will ever except that. Buy the
correct lug and install it.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

Bull****!

There is no reduction in current capacity and there is no safety issue.
There certainly would be an issue if you trimmed of a few strands to fit
an undersized hole, but in this case you are maintaining the full
capacity of the wire.

Pete C.

Your opinion that it is BS does not change the fact that no competent
electrical inspector will sign off on such an installation. The US NEC
requires that equipment be installed and used in accordance with any
instructions included in the listing or labeling. The UL white book
contains the listings and the sizes of wire that each listed terminal
are tested to terminate. You're wilderness engineering solution will
not pass inspection.
--
Tom Horne

Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to.
We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you.

110.3 Examination, Identification, Installation, and Use of Equipment.
(B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed
and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or
labeling.

Please tell me exactly which of the instructions included with the
listed panel a spread termination will violate? It certainly will not
violate the neutral / ground terminals specified wire gauge range as
each terminal will be terminating a wire strand bundle matching it's
rated gauge range.

Pete C.

On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 23:03:26 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 02:23:53 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

It's not parallel conductors, it's a spread termination.

It may work but it is still a violation. 110.3(B) if nothing else


Might also be a 110.12 violation, depending on the AHJ.

later,

tom

Tom The Great wrote:

On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 23:03:26 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 02:23:53 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

It's not parallel conductors, it's a spread termination.

It may work but it is still a violation. 110.3(B) if nothing else

Might also be a 110.12 violation, depending on the AHJ.

later,

tom

Exactly which part of 110.12? The first part? Part A, B, C?

Pete C.

Pete C. wrote:
"Thomas D. Horne, FF EMT" wrote:
Pete C. wrote:
"Tom Horne, Electrician" wrote:
Pete C. wrote:
Ed wrote:
I have a siemens panel, and I got some #4 stranded copper wire to
connect to the ground rods, and water pipes. But when I go to connect
it to the ground/neutral bar, it is too big(just a little too big) to
fit in the slots. Is there another peice that is supposed to be for
this, or do I need to go back and get solid #4 for the ground wire (and
will solid #4 fit).

Thanks!
You can divide the strands into two bundles (like a Y) and connect in
two adjacent slots if you need to.

Pete C.
No competent electrical inspector will ever except that. Buy the
correct lug and install it.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison
Bull****!

There is no reduction in current capacity and there is no safety issue.
There certainly would be an issue if you trimmed of a few strands to fit
an undersized hole, but in this case you are maintaining the full
capacity of the wire.

Pete C.
Your opinion that it is BS does not change the fact that no competent
electrical inspector will sign off on such an installation. The US NEC
requires that equipment be installed and used in accordance with any
instructions included in the listing or labeling. The UL white book
contains the listings and the sizes of wire that each listed terminal
are tested to terminate. You're wilderness engineering solution will
not pass inspection.
--
Tom Horne

Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to.
We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you.

110.3 Examination, Identification, Installation, and Use of Equipment.
(B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed
and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or
labeling.

Please tell me exactly which of the instructions included with the
listed panel a spread termination will violate? It certainly will not
violate the neutral / ground terminals specified wire gauge range as
each terminal will be terminating a wire strand bundle matching it's
rated gauge range.

Pete C.

Nice try Pete. Your split strands don't have a gage. Upon request you
have to present the listing mark or label and there is no listing mark
or label for the divided strands. It is simply a damaged conductor.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

110.12 Mechanical Execution of Work.
Electrical equipment shall be installed in a neat and workmanlike manner.
(C) Integrity of Electrical Equipment and Connections. Internal parts of
electrical equipment, including busbars, wiring terminals, insulators,
and other surfaces, shall not be damaged or contaminated by foreign
materials such as paint, plaster, cleaners, abrasives, or corrosive
residues. There shall be no damaged parts that may adversely affect safe
operation or mechanical strength of the equipment such as parts that are
broken; bent; cut; or deteriorated by corrosion, chemical action, or
overheating.

"Tom Horne, Electrician" wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
"Thomas D. Horne, FF EMT" wrote:
Pete C. wrote:
"Tom Horne, Electrician" wrote:
Pete C. wrote:
Ed wrote:
I have a siemens panel, and I got some #4 stranded copper wire to
connect to the ground rods, and water pipes. But when I go to connect
it to the ground/neutral bar, it is too big(just a little too big) to
fit in the slots. Is there another peice that is supposed to be for
this, or do I need to go back and get solid #4 for the ground wire (and
will solid #4 fit).

Thanks!
You can divide the strands into two bundles (like a Y) and connect in
two adjacent slots if you need to.

Pete C.
No competent electrical inspector will ever except that. Buy the
correct lug and install it.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison
Bull****!

There is no reduction in current capacity and there is no safety issue.
There certainly would be an issue if you trimmed of a few strands to fit
an undersized hole, but in this case you are maintaining the full
capacity of the wire.

Pete C.
Your opinion that it is BS does not change the fact that no competent
electrical inspector will sign off on such an installation. The US NEC
requires that equipment be installed and used in accordance with any
instructions included in the listing or labeling. The UL white book
contains the listings and the sizes of wire that each listed terminal
are tested to terminate. You're wilderness engineering solution will
not pass inspection.
--
Tom Horne

Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to.
We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you.

110.3 Examination, Identification, Installation, and Use of Equipment.
(B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed
and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or
labeling.

Please tell me exactly which of the instructions included with the
listed panel a spread termination will violate? It certainly will not
violate the neutral / ground terminals specified wire gauge range as
each terminal will be terminating a wire strand bundle matching it's
rated gauge range.

Pete C.

Nice try Pete. Your split strands don't have a gage. Upon request you
have to present the listing mark or label and there is no listing mark
or label for the divided strands. It is simply a damaged conductor.
--
Tom Horne


Nice try, unless a strand has been severed, it is *not* a damaged
conductor any more than it would be a damaged conductor being squished
under the terminal screw. Indeed I've seen terminal screws nearly sever
strands.

Pete C.

Thomas D. Horne, FF EMT wrote:
Pete C. wrote:
"Tom Horne, Electrician" wrote:
Pete C. wrote:
Ed wrote:
I have a siemens panel, and I got some #4 stranded copper wire to
connect to the ground rods, and water pipes. But when I go to connect
it to the ground/neutral bar, it is too big(just a little too big) to
fit in the slots. Is there another peice that is supposed to be for
this, or do I need to go back and get solid #4 for the ground wire
(and
will solid #4 fit).

Thanks!
You can divide the strands into two bundles (like a Y) and connect in
two adjacent slots if you need to.

Pete C.
No competent electrical inspector will ever except that. Buy the
correct lug and install it.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

Bull****!

There is no reduction in current capacity and there is no safety issue.
There certainly would be an issue if you trimmed of a few strands to fit
an undersized hole, but in this case you are maintaining the full
capacity of the wire.

Pete C.

Your opinion that it is BS does not change the fact that no competent
electrical inspector will sign off on such an installation. The US NEC
requires that equipment be installed and used in accordance with any
instructions included in the listing or labeling. The UL white book
contains the listings and the sizes of wire that each listed terminal
are tested to terminate. You're wilderness engineering solution will
not pass inspection.


Why not just /ask/ the local code inspector if it would be OK to
separate the strands and use 2 adjacent terminals, or if you need to buy
an add-on lug? They both seem perfectly reasonable solutions to me if
done neatly. Separating the strands has the advantage of one less
connection. The add-on lug would probably look a little better.

Or are you two just having fun ****ing on each other? ;-)

Bob

zxcvbob wrote:

Thomas D. Horne, FF EMT wrote:
Pete C. wrote:
"Tom Horne, Electrician" wrote:
Pete C. wrote:
Ed wrote:
I have a siemens panel, and I got some #4 stranded copper wire to
connect to the ground rods, and water pipes. But when I go to connect
it to the ground/neutral bar, it is too big(just a little too big) to
fit in the slots. Is there another peice that is supposed to be for
this, or do I need to go back and get solid #4 for the ground wire
(and
will solid #4 fit).

Thanks!
You can divide the strands into two bundles (like a Y) and connect in
two adjacent slots if you need to.

Pete C.
No competent electrical inspector will ever except that. Buy the
correct lug and install it.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

Bull****!

There is no reduction in current capacity and there is no safety issue.
There certainly would be an issue if you trimmed of a few strands to fit
an undersized hole, but in this case you are maintaining the full
capacity of the wire.

Pete C.

Your opinion that it is BS does not change the fact that no competent
electrical inspector will sign off on such an installation. The US NEC
requires that equipment be installed and used in accordance with any
instructions included in the listing or labeling. The UL white book
contains the listings and the sizes of wire that each listed terminal
are tested to terminate. You're wilderness engineering solution will
not pass inspection.

Why not just /ask/ the local code inspector if it would be OK to
separate the strands and use 2 adjacent terminals, or if you need to buy
an add-on lug? They both seem perfectly reasonable solutions to me if
done neatly. Separating the strands has the advantage of one less
connection. The add-on lug would probably look a little better.

Or are you two just having fun ****ing on each other? ;-)

Bob

Actually where I am either would be fine as I have no AHJ to worry
about.

Pete C.

zxcvbob wrote:
Thomas D. Horne, FF EMT wrote:
Pete C. wrote:
"Tom Horne, Electrician" wrote:
Pete C. wrote:
Ed wrote:
I have a siemens panel, and I got some #4 stranded copper wire to
connect to the ground rods, and water pipes. But when I go to
connect
it to the ground/neutral bar, it is too big(just a little too big) to
fit in the slots. Is there another peice that is supposed to be for
this, or do I need to go back and get solid #4 for the ground wire
(and
will solid #4 fit).

Thanks!
You can divide the strands into two bundles (like a Y) and connect in
two adjacent slots if you need to.

Pete C.
No competent electrical inspector will ever except that. Buy the
correct lug and install it.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too
dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

Bull****!

There is no reduction in current capacity and there is no safety issue.
There certainly would be an issue if you trimmed of a few strands to fit
an undersized hole, but in this case you are maintaining the full
capacity of the wire.

Pete C.

Your opinion that it is BS does not change the fact that no competent
electrical inspector will sign off on such an installation. The US
NEC requires that equipment be installed and used in accordance with
any instructions included in the listing or labeling. The UL white
book contains the listings and the sizes of wire that each listed
terminal are tested to terminate. You're wilderness engineering
solution will not pass inspection.


Why not just /ask/ the local code inspector if it would be OK to
separate the strands and use 2 adjacent terminals, or if you need to buy
an add-on lug? They both seem perfectly reasonable solutions to me if
done neatly. Separating the strands has the advantage of one less
connection. The add-on lug would probably look a little better.

Or are you two just having fun ****ing on each other? ;-)

Bob

Your right of course. What matters is what the inspector on scene will
accept.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 18:11:04 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

Tom The Great wrote:

On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 23:03:26 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 02:23:53 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

It's not parallel conductors, it's a spread termination.

It may work but it is still a violation. 110.3(B) if nothing else

Might also be a 110.12 violation, depending on the AHJ.

later,

tom

Exactly which part of 110.12? The first part? Part A, B, C?

Pete C.


No specific part, just 110.12.

tom

Pete C. wrote:

"Tom Horne, Electrician" wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

"Thomas D. Horne, FF EMT" wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

"Tom Horne, Electrician" wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

Ed wrote:

I have a siemens panel, and I got some #4 stranded copper wire to
connect to the ground rods, and water pipes. But when I go to connect
it to the ground/neutral bar, it is too big(just a little too big) to
fit in the slots. Is there another peice that is supposed to be for
this, or do I need to go back and get solid #4 for the ground wire (and
will solid #4 fit).

Thanks!

You can divide the strands into two bundles (like a Y) and connect in
two adjacent slots if you need to.

Pete C.

No competent electrical inspector will ever except that. Buy the
correct lug and install it.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

Bull****!

There is no reduction in current capacity and there is no safety issue.
There certainly would be an issue if you trimmed of a few strands to fit
an undersized hole, but in this case you are maintaining the full
capacity of the wire.

Pete C.

Your opinion that it is BS does not change the fact that no competent
electrical inspector will sign off on such an installation. The US NEC
requires that equipment be installed and used in accordance with any
instructions included in the listing or labeling. The UL white book
contains the listings and the sizes of wire that each listed terminal
are tested to terminate. You're wilderness engineering solution will
not pass inspection.
--
Tom Horne

Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to.
We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you.

110.3 Examination, Identification, Installation, and Use of Equipment.
(B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed
and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or
labeling.

Please tell me exactly which of the instructions included with the
listed panel a spread termination will violate? It certainly will not
violate the neutral / ground terminals specified wire gauge range as
each terminal will be terminating a wire strand bundle matching it's
rated gauge range.

Pete C.

Nice try Pete. Your split strands don't have a gage. Upon request you
have to present the listing mark or label and there is no listing mark
or label for the divided strands. It is simply a damaged conductor.
--
Tom Horne



Nice try, unless a strand has been severed, it is *not* a damaged
conductor any more than it would be a damaged conductor being squished
under the terminal screw. Indeed I've seen terminal screws nearly sever
strands.

Pete C.

I agree with gfretwell, Tom and Thomas. Is a violation of 110.3-B and
could be called under 110.12.

bud--