Howdy all.

Since I will be pigtailing in about 20 outlets and I know 12AWG can be
kind of stiff to work with, I thought I would ask if anyone here has
any tips to make the job easier ?

I have already pre-wired the pig-tails to the outlets since it's
something that could easily be done from the comfort of my couch while
watching the basketball game. The pigtails for the hots, neutrals and
grounds are all about 6 inches long and I just made them from some
existing 12AWG NM/B wire I had (si they're pretty straight right now).

I have the red wing-nut style wire-nuts and will have to joint (3)
12AWG wires into each nut.

Any tips to make the job easier or better would be appreciated!

Thanks,
Kevin

The best tip is to use large enough boxes, so you don't have to cram the
wires into them. Some wire nuts require twisting the wires (clockwise) and
some do not, just make them tight


" wrote in message
ups.com...
Howdy all.

Since I will be pigtailing in about 20 outlets and I know 12AWG can be
kind of stiff to work with, I thought I would ask if anyone here has
any tips to make the job easier ?

I have already pre-wired the pig-tails to the outlets since it's
something that could easily be done from the comfort of my couch while
watching the basketball game. The pigtails for the hots, neutrals and
grounds are all about 6 inches long and I just made them from some
existing 12AWG NM/B wire I had (si they're pretty straight right now).

I have the red wing-nut style wire-nuts and will have to joint (3)
12AWG wires into each nut.

Any tips to make the job easier or better would be appreciated!

Thanks,
Kevin

" wrote in message
ups.com...
Howdy all.

Since I will be pigtailing in about 20 outlets and I know 12AWG can be
kind of stiff to work with, I thought I would ask if anyone here has
any tips to make the job easier ?

I have already pre-wired the pig-tails to the outlets since it's
something that could easily be done from the comfort of my couch while
watching the basketball game. The pigtails for the hots, neutrals and
grounds are all about 6 inches long and I just made them from some
existing 12AWG NM/B wire I had (si they're pretty straight right now).

I have the red wing-nut style wire-nuts and will have to joint (3)
12AWG wires into each nut.

Any tips to make the job easier or better would be appreciated!

Thanks,
Kevin


For connections that you're pretty sure will be permanent, or where there's
enough extra wire to make cutting and resplicing feasible, use crimp
connectors (barrels). If you use the correct kind of crimping tool, these
connections are far stronger than wire nuts.

These are about the best you can buy:

http://www.panduit.com/search/search... u=P_RollupKey

Thanks for the feedback but the connectors you link to look like
they're only good for joining 2 wires, not the three wires I mentioned
below. Or did I miss somethin'?

Thanks,
Kevin

" wrote in message
ups.com...
Thanks for the feedback but the connectors you link to look like
they're only good for joining 2 wires, not the three wires I mentioned
below. Or did I miss somethin'?

Thanks,
Kevin


No - you're right. I *believe* they make a 3 wire connector. Call them.

RBM wrote:
The best tip is to use large enough boxes, so you don't have to cram the
wires into them. Some wire nuts require twisting the wires (clockwise) and
some do not, just make them tight


" wrote in message
ups.com...
Howdy all.

Since I will be pigtailing in about 20 outlets and I know 12AWG can be
kind of stiff to work with, I thought I would ask if anyone here has
any tips to make the job easier ?

I have already pre-wired the pig-tails to the outlets since it's
something that could easily be done from the comfort of my couch while
watching the basketball game. The pigtails for the hots, neutrals and
grounds are all about 6 inches long and I just made them from some
existing 12AWG NM/B wire I had (si they're pretty straight right now).

I have the red wing-nut style wire-nuts and will have to joint (3)
12AWG wires into each nut.

Any tips to make the job easier or better would be appreciated!

Thanks,
Kevin



I sometimes twist even the ones that do not require twisting. I find it
makes things easier. I use good "linemans" pliers. Pre-twisting this way
ensures I do not leave one connector too short and not making contact
with the others.

Most here hate the stab back type connection on receptacles. Has anyone
seen the stab type wire "nuts"?? I contracted out the electrical on my
new house and the contractor used them. Made for a nice, neat and fast
job. No telling how reliable they will be long term.

See
http://www.idealindustries.com/IDEAL...s?OpenDocument
for one manufacturer.

-b

Inviato da X-Privat.Org - Registrazione gratuita http://www.x-privat.org/join.php

Some recessed fixtures and under cabinet fixtures are coming with back stab
connectors. Personally I love them, but like you said, they're too new on
the market to know if they'll hold up long term


"No" wrote in message ...
RBM wrote:
The best tip is to use large enough boxes, so you don't have to cram the
wires into them. Some wire nuts require twisting the wires (clockwise)
and some do not, just make them tight


" wrote in message
ups.com...
Howdy all.

Since I will be pigtailing in about 20 outlets and I know 12AWG can be
kind of stiff to work with, I thought I would ask if anyone here has
any tips to make the job easier ?

I have already pre-wired the pig-tails to the outlets since it's
something that could easily be done from the comfort of my couch while
watching the basketball game. The pigtails for the hots, neutrals and
grounds are all about 6 inches long and I just made them from some
existing 12AWG NM/B wire I had (si they're pretty straight right now).

I have the red wing-nut style wire-nuts and will have to joint (3)
12AWG wires into each nut.

Any tips to make the job easier or better would be appreciated!

Thanks,
Kevin



I sometimes twist even the ones that do not require twisting. I find it
makes things easier. I use good "linemans" pliers. Pre-twisting this way
ensures I do not leave one connector too short and not making contact with
the others.

Most here hate the stab back type connection on receptacles. Has anyone
seen the stab type wire "nuts"?? I contracted out the electrical on my new
house and the contractor used them. Made for a nice, neat and fast job. No
telling how reliable they will be long term.

See
http://www.idealindustries.com/IDEAL...s?OpenDocument
for one manufacturer.

-b

Inviato da X-Privat.Org - Registrazione gratuita
http://www.x-privat.org/join.php

VERY INTERESTING! Looks like what I need if I go that route. I will
see if I can find them locally to give them a try.

http://www.idealindustries.com/IDEAL...J?OpenDocument

Let me be real clear. When I say I love them, I'm referring to their use in
things like fixtures, where, if one fails, it will be easy to find and fix
the open circuit. As far as power, outlet splices, I want a hard bodied
wirenut and a nine inch lineman's pliers


" wrote in message
oups.com...
VERY INTERESTING! Looks like what I need if I go that route. I will
see if I can find them locally to give them a try.

http://www.idealindustries.com/IDEAL...J?OpenDocument

RBM wrote:
Let me be real clear. When I say I love them, I'm referring to their use in
things like fixtures, where, if one fails, it will be easy to find and fix
the open circuit. As far as power, outlet splices, I want a hard bodied
wirenut and a nine inch lineman's pliers


" wrote in message
oups.com...
VERY INTERESTING! Looks like what I need if I go that route. I will
see if I can find them locally to give them a try.

http://www.idealindustries.com/IDEAL...J?OpenDocument



For me they leave a little nagging in the back of my head. Fortunately I
know they are there, why they are there and what each of them connects.
If one ever goes bad I know I can easily snip it off and replace with a
regular wire nut.

To all - Another benefit. Its easy to add things if you leave an extra
spot or two. I had a situation where I wanted to tap into a location for
a fan/light. It was very easy just to stab into the connector I wanted
to add this leg. The connectors used have 6 positions IIRC. Only 3 were
used in the case of the one I tapped into.
http://www.idealindustries.com/IDEAL...J?OpenDocument

I suspect these were used by my contractor because they were probably
virtually the same price as the smaller ones yet more flexible in their
applications.

Inviato da X-Privat.Org - Registrazione gratuita http://www.x-privat.org/join.php

" wrote in message
ups.com...
Howdy all.

Since I will be pigtailing in about 20 outlets and I know 12AWG can be
kind of stiff to work with, I thought I would ask if anyone here has
any tips to make the job easier ?

I have already pre-wired the pig-tails to the outlets since it's
something that could easily be done from the comfort of my couch while
watching the basketball game. The pigtails for the hots, neutrals and
grounds are all about 6 inches long and I just made them from some
existing 12AWG NM/B wire I had (si they're pretty straight right now).

I have the red wing-nut style wire-nuts and will have to joint (3)
12AWG wires into each nut.

Any tips to make the job easier or better would be appreciated!

Thanks,
Kevin


In addition to what others have said, stranded wire pigtails are easier to
push into the box than solid wire.

"No" wrote in message ...
(snip)

Most here hate the stab back type connection on receptacles. Has anyone
seen the stab type wire "nuts"?? I contracted out the electrical on my
new house and the contractor used them. Made for a nice, neat and fast
job. No telling how reliable they will be long term.

See

http://www.idealindustries.com/IDEAL...h-In%20Connect
ors?OpenDocument
for one manufacturer.

Sure those are back-stab, and not just pre-made pigtails? Local big-box has
those, where the spring inside the nut is connected to a wire leading out
the hole in the back. Looks like it would be a real time-saver for
production installs, if local codes allows it. Or were you talking about
some sort of flat crimp connector, where you shove all three wires in
seperate holes, and squeeze a blade down on them? I've never seen those used
for a.c. lines before.



aem sends...

wrote:
Howdy all.

Since I will be pigtailing in about 20 outlets and I know 12AWG can be
kind of stiff to work with, I thought I would ask if anyone here has
any tips to make the job easier ?

I have already pre-wired the pig-tails to the outlets since it's
something that could easily be done from the comfort of my couch while
watching the basketball game. The pigtails for the hots, neutrals and
grounds are all about 6 inches long and I just made them from some
existing 12AWG NM/B wire I had (si they're pretty straight right now).

I have the red wing-nut style wire-nuts and will have to joint (3)
12AWG wires into each nut.

Any tips to make the job easier or better would be appreciated!

Thanks,
Kevin


If you had a Buchanan C-24 and the proper sleeves (3M S60 have the
capacity as I recall but they are uninsulated and would require shrink
boots or tape) you could do each join in maybe 20 seconds and they would
_never_ come apart even if you wanted them to.

--
John McGaw
[Knoxville, TN, USA]
http://johnmcgaw.com

On 26 May 2006 11:15:09 -0700, "
wrote:

Howdy all.

Since I will be pigtailing in about 20 outlets and I know 12AWG can be
kind of stiff to work with, I thought I would ask if anyone here has
any tips to make the job easier ?

I have already pre-wired the pig-tails to the outlets since it's
something that could easily be done from the comfort of my couch while
watching the basketball game. The pigtails for the hots, neutrals and
grounds are all about 6 inches long and I just made them from some
existing 12AWG NM/B wire I had (si they're pretty straight right now).

Si, muchacho. BTW, it's little mistakes like this that will keep you
from passing.

I have the red wing-nut style wire-nuts and will have to joint (3)
12AWG wires into each nut.

Any tips to make the job easier or better would be appreciated!

Thanks,
Kevin

Kevin is a good name. No one will suspect it.

[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On 26 May 2006 11:15:09 -0700, "
wrote:

Howdy all.

Since I will be pigtailing in about 20 outlets and I know 12AWG can be
kind of stiff to work with, I thought I would ask if anyone here has
any tips to make the job easier ?

I have already pre-wired the pig-tails to the outlets since it's
something that could easily be done from the comfort of my couch while
watching the basketball game. The pigtails for the hots, neutrals and
grounds are all about 6 inches long and I just made them from some
existing 12AWG NM/B wire I had (si they're pretty straight right now).

I have the red wing-nut style wire-nuts and will have to joint (3)
12AWG wires into each nut.


One thing to watch, you just can't use a regular wire nut to bond the
ground as you would hot and neutral. The ground circuit to other
outlets/fixtures must be configured such that it is not disconnected as
you work with the outlet/fixture. That means you can't remove whatever
is bonding the ground circuit to attach a pigtail from the outlet.

The ground circuit must be crimped or something like the green wire nuts
that allow a grounding pigtail to stick out from the end of the nut.

Thus I don't see how you planned on connecting the ground pigtail you
already attached to the outlets. Perhaps you have thought this through
and can do so without disconnecting the existing grounds while
connecting on the outlet.

gerry

--

Personal home page - http://gogood.com

gerry misspelled in my email address to confuse robots

Personally I prefer the kind iof receptables with spots for 2 wires eac
side slid in straight and screwed down.

12 ga wire is a pain they should produce bigger boxes

wrote:
Howdy all.

Since I will be pigtailing in about 20 outlets and I know 12AWG can be
kind of stiff to work with, I thought I would ask if anyone here has
any tips to make the job easier ?

I have already pre-wired the pig-tails to the outlets since it's
something that could easily be done from the comfort of my couch while
watching the basketball game. The pigtails for the hots, neutrals and
grounds are all about 6 inches long and I just made them from some
existing 12AWG NM/B wire I had (si they're pretty straight right now).

I have the red wing-nut style wire-nuts and will have to joint (3)
12AWG wires into each nut.

Any tips to make the job easier or better would be appreciated!

Thanks,
Kevin

Even while adhering to box-fill requirements, I also find getting
all the wires to fit nicely in the box can be a struggle, especially
with 12 AWG. I would attach the pigtails to the wires in the
box *first*, before attaching the outlet. I then fold each bundle of
wires accordion style back into the box, with the pigtails
left as the only thing sticking out of the box. I put a
bend in the pigtails as well, so that after I attach the outlet,
and start pushing the outlet into the box, the pigtails have
their folds going in the right direction. I also find that
a bit of creative use of language (inquiring into the parentage
of a particular bundle of neutrals, for example) can also be helpful.
I would use shorter pigtails; my understanding has always been
that the 6 in. requirement pertained to wires entering or
exiting the box.

Regards,
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=
Mike Lacy, Ft Collins CO 80523
Clean out the 'junk' to email me.

[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Sun, 28 May 2006 10:14:46 -0500, Bud--
wrote:

gerry wrote:

[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On 26 May 2006 11:15:09 -0700, "
wrote:


Howdy all.

Since I will be pigtailing in about 20 outlets and I know 12AWG can be
kind of stiff to work with, I thought I would ask if anyone here has
any tips to make the job easier ?

I have already pre-wired the pig-tails to the outlets since it's
something that could easily be done from the comfort of my couch while
watching the basketball game. The pigtails for the hots, neutrals and
grounds are all about 6 inches long and I just made them from some
existing 12AWG NM/B wire I had (si they're pretty straight right now).

I have the red wing-nut style wire-nuts and will have to joint (3)
12AWG wires into each nut.



One thing to watch, you just can't use a regular wire nut to bond the
ground as you would hot and neutral. The ground circuit to other
outlets/fixtures must be configured such that it is not disconnected as
you work with the outlet/fixture. That means you can't remove whatever
is bonding the ground circuit to attach a pigtail from the outlet.

The ground circuit must be crimped or something like the green wire nuts
that allow a grounding pigtail to stick out from the end of the nut.


Code citation?

bud--


NEC 250.148 (B)

(B) Grounding Continuity. The arrangement of grounding connections shall
be such that the disconnection or the removal of a receptacle, lunimaire
(fixture), or other device fed from the box does not interfere with or
interrupt the grounding continuity.

Can be read at

http://nfpa-acs-01.gvpi.net:8080/rrs...NFPASTD/7005SB


As an example, that's why the green wire nuts that let a pigtail stick
trough the end without removing the wire nut exist. Other means are
crimped on jumper which forces the grounding pigtail to be disconnected
from the fixture. Taking a wire nut off the grounds to service a fixture
is prohibited since it interrupts grounding continuity.

gerry

--

Personal home page - http://gogood.com

gerry misspelled in my email address to confuse robots

posted for all of us...
I don't top post - see either inline or at bottom.

Personally I prefer the kind iof receptables with spots for 2 wires eac
side slid in straight and screwed down.

12 ga wire is a pain they should produce bigger boxes


Yeah, and you believe faucets are made = by code - to leak. Go away.
--
Tekkie

gerry wrote:

[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Sun, 28 May 2006 10:14:46 -0500, Bud--
wrote:


gerry wrote:


[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On 26 May 2006 11:15:09 -0700, "
wrote:



Howdy all.

Since I will be pigtailing in about 20 outlets and I know 12AWG can be
kind of stiff to work with, I thought I would ask if anyone here has
any tips to make the job easier ?

I have already pre-wired the pig-tails to the outlets since it's
something that could easily be done from the comfort of my couch while
watching the basketball game. The pigtails for the hots, neutrals and
grounds are all about 6 inches long and I just made them from some
existing 12AWG NM/B wire I had (si they're pretty straight right now).

I have the red wing-nut style wire-nuts and will have to joint (3)
12AWG wires into each nut.



One thing to watch, you just can't use a regular wire nut to bond the
ground as you would hot and neutral. The ground circuit to other
outlets/fixtures must be configured such that it is not disconnected as
you work with the outlet/fixture. That means you can't remove whatever
is bonding the ground circuit to attach a pigtail from the outlet.

The ground circuit must be crimped or something like the green wire nuts
that allow a grounding pigtail to stick out from the end of the nut.


Code citation?

bud--



NEC 250.148 (B)

(B) Grounding Continuity. The arrangement of grounding connections shall
be such that the disconnection or the removal of a receptacle, lunimaire
(fixture), or other device fed from the box does not interfere with or
interrupt the grounding continuity.

Can be read at

http://nfpa-acs-01.gvpi.net:8080/rrs...NFPASTD/7005SB


As an example, that's why the green wire nuts that let a pigtail stick
trough the end without removing the wire nut exist. Other means are
crimped on jumper which forces the grounding pigtail to be disconnected
from the fixture. Taking a wire nut off the grounds to service a fixture
is prohibited since it interrupts grounding continuity.

gerry


In the case of a receptacle, a receptacle always has only one ground
screw, so the ground is never wired through the receptacle. Detaching
the ground wire from a receptacle will never interrupt the ground
continuity. I see nothing that a green wirenut with a built-in pigtail
adds to the ground continuity over a standard wirenut with a pigtail
wire coming out of it.

Pigtailing out a ground wire with a standard wire nut also works for a
fixture. If the fixture has its own ground wire it can be wirenutted to
the pigtail ground wire.

The green wirenuts subract one from the number of wires spliced but have
no other effect. Wiring can easily be done without using crimps.

bud--

I have the 22.5 cu. in. blue plastic boxes from Home Depot. The 18 cu.
in. boxes are too small IMO but the 22.5's seem fine.

I don't think there there will be any problem stuffing the 22.5 cu.in.
boxes with outlets and 12AWG wire/pigtails....

[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Tue, 30 May 2006 11:55:22 -0500, Bud--
wrote:

gerry wrote:

[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Sun, 28 May 2006 10:14:46 -0500, Bud--
wrote:


gerry wrote:


[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On 26 May 2006 11:15:09 -0700, "
wrote:



Howdy all.

Since I will be pigtailing in about 20 outlets and I know 12AWG can be
kind of stiff to work with, I thought I would ask if anyone here has
any tips to make the job easier ?

I have already pre-wired the pig-tails to the outlets since it's
something that could easily be done from the comfort of my couch while
watching the basketball game. The pigtails for the hots, neutrals and
grounds are all about 6 inches long and I just made them from some
existing 12AWG NM/B wire I had (si they're pretty straight right now).

I have the red wing-nut style wire-nuts and will have to joint (3)
12AWG wires into each nut.



One thing to watch, you just can't use a regular wire nut to bond the
ground as you would hot and neutral. The ground circuit to other
outlets/fixtures must be configured such that it is not disconnected as
you work with the outlet/fixture. That means you can't remove whatever
is bonding the ground circuit to attach a pigtail from the outlet.

The ground circuit must be crimped or something like the green wire nuts
that allow a grounding pigtail to stick out from the end of the nut.


Code citation?

bud--



NEC 250.148 (B)

(B) Grounding Continuity. The arrangement of grounding connections shall
be such that the disconnection or the removal of a receptacle, lunimaire
(fixture), or other device fed from the box does not interfere with or
interrupt the grounding continuity.

Can be read at

http://nfpa-acs-01.gvpi.net:8080/rrs...NFPASTD/7005SB


As an example, that's why the green wire nuts that let a pigtail stick
trough the end without removing the wire nut exist. Other means are
crimped on jumper which forces the grounding pigtail to be disconnected
from the fixture. Taking a wire nut off the grounds to service a fixture
is prohibited since it interrupts grounding continuity.

gerry


In the case of a receptacle, a receptacle always has only one ground
screw, so the ground is never wired through the receptacle. Detaching
the ground wire from a receptacle will never interrupt the ground
continuity. I see nothing that a green wirenut with a built-in pigtail
adds to the ground continuity over a standard wirenut with a pigtail
wire coming out of it.

Clearly you have never used them and had such work inspected. Certainly
the last outlet in a chain is an exception UNLESS it is something like a
metallic box which needs grounding.

Pigtailing out a ground wire with a standard wire nut also works for a
fixture. If the fixture has its own ground wire it can be wirenutted to
the pigtail ground wire.

Pigtailing from the ground bundle with a standard wire nut does not meet
code and won't pass inspection where NEC used. (most locations)

The green wirenuts subract one from the number of wires spliced but have
no other effect. Wiring can easily be done without using crimps.

Chose to ignore the NEC code if you wish. The green nuts have a hole to
extend one of the existing ground wires for use as a fixture ground.
This forces the ground to be disconnected from the fixture, taking the
green wire nut off doesn't help when servicing the fixture since it's
still connected, not a pigtail.

You asked for the code citation, got it.

gerry

--

Personal home page - http://gogood.com

gerry misspelled in my email address to confuse robots

gerry wrote:
[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Tue, 30 May 2006 11:55:22 -0500, Bud--
wrote:


gerry wrote:


[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Sun, 28 May 2006 10:14:46 -0500, Bud--
wrote:



gerry wrote:



[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On 26 May 2006 11:15:09 -0700, "
wrote:




Howdy all.

Since I will be pigtailing in about 20 outlets and I know 12AWG can be
kind of stiff to work with, I thought I would ask if anyone here has
any tips to make the job easier ?

I have already pre-wired the pig-tails to the outlets since it's
something that could easily be done from the comfort of my couch while
watching the basketball game. The pigtails for the hots, neutrals and
grounds are all about 6 inches long and I just made them from some
existing 12AWG NM/B wire I had (si they're pretty straight right now).

I have the red wing-nut style wire-nuts and will have to joint (3)
12AWG wires into each nut.



One thing to watch, you just can't use a regular wire nut to bond the
ground as you would hot and neutral. The ground circuit to other
outlets/fixtures must be configured such that it is not disconnected as
you work with the outlet/fixture. That means you can't remove whatever
is bonding the ground circuit to attach a pigtail from the outlet.

The ground circuit must be crimped or something like the green wire nuts
that allow a grounding pigtail to stick out from the end of the nut.


Code citation?

bud--



NEC 250.148 (B)

(B) Grounding Continuity. The arrangement of grounding connections shall
be such that the disconnection or the removal of a receptacle, lunimaire
(fixture), or other device fed from the box does not interfere with or
interrupt the grounding continuity.

Can be read at

http://nfpa-acs-01.gvpi.net:8080/rrs...NFPASTD/7005SB


As an example, that's why the green wire nuts that let a pigtail stick
trough the end without removing the wire nut exist. Other means are
crimped on jumper which forces the grounding pigtail to be disconnected
from the fixture. Taking a wire nut off the grounds to service a fixture
is prohibited since it interrupts grounding continuity.

gerry


In the case of a receptacle, a receptacle always has only one ground
screw, so the ground is never wired through the receptacle. Detaching
the ground wire from a receptacle will never interrupt the ground
continuity. I see nothing that a green wirenut with a built-in pigtail
adds to the ground continuity over a standard wirenut with a pigtail
wire coming out of it.


Clearly you have never used them and had such work inspected. Certainly
the last outlet in a chain is an exception UNLESS it is something like a
metallic box which needs grounding.


Explain how removing a single wire from a receptacle ground connection
screw will "interfere with or intrerrupt the ground continuity" of
grounds to parts of the circuit downstream from the receptacle.

Clearly I have never used green wire nuts and have had my work inspected.


Pigtailing out a ground wire with a standard wire nut also works for a
fixture. If the fixture has its own ground wire it can be wirenutted to
the pigtail ground wire.


Pigtailing from the ground bundle with a standard wire nut does not meet
code and won't pass inspection where NEC used. (most locations)


It will meet the code anywhere the NEC (not local opinion) is enforced.


The green wirenuts subract one from the number of wires spliced but have
no other effect. Wiring can easily be done without using crimps.


Chose to ignore the NEC code if you wish. The green nuts have a hole to
extend one of the existing ground wires for use as a fixture ground.
This forces the ground to be disconnected from the fixture, taking the
green wire nut off doesn't help when servicing the fixture since it's
still connected, not a pigtail.


A wire pigtailed out from a standard wirenut can be disconnected from
the fixture in the same way. The code does not mandate that
installations be idiot-proof.

You asked for the code citation, got it.


Thanks for the cite.

bud--

[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Wed, 31 May 2006 10:12:28 -0500, Bud--
wrote:

gerry wrote:
[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Tue, 30 May 2006 11:55:22 -0500, Bud--
wrote:


gerry wrote:


[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Sun, 28 May 2006 10:14:46 -0500, Bud--
wrote:



gerry wrote:



[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On 26 May 2006 11:15:09 -0700, "
wrote:




Howdy all.

Since I will be pigtailing in about 20 outlets and I know 12AWG can be
kind of stiff to work with, I thought I would ask if anyone here has
any tips to make the job easier ?

I have already pre-wired the pig-tails to the outlets since it's
something that could easily be done from the comfort of my couch while
watching the basketball game. The pigtails for the hots, neutrals and
grounds are all about 6 inches long and I just made them from some
existing 12AWG NM/B wire I had (si they're pretty straight right now).

I have the red wing-nut style wire-nuts and will have to joint (3)
12AWG wires into each nut.



One thing to watch, you just can't use a regular wire nut to bond the
ground as you would hot and neutral. The ground circuit to other
outlets/fixtures must be configured such that it is not disconnected as
you work with the outlet/fixture. That means you can't remove whatever
is bonding the ground circuit to attach a pigtail from the outlet.

The ground circuit must be crimped or something like the green wire nuts
that allow a grounding pigtail to stick out from the end of the nut.


Code citation?

bud--



NEC 250.148 (B)

(B) Grounding Continuity. The arrangement of grounding connections shall
be such that the disconnection or the removal of a receptacle, lunimaire
(fixture), or other device fed from the box does not interfere with or
interrupt the grounding continuity.

Can be read at

http://nfpa-acs-01.gvpi.net:8080/rrs...NFPASTD/7005SB


As an example, that's why the green wire nuts that let a pigtail stick
trough the end without removing the wire nut exist. Other means are
crimped on jumper which forces the grounding pigtail to be disconnected
from the fixture. Taking a wire nut off the grounds to service a fixture
is prohibited since it interrupts grounding continuity.

gerry


In the case of a receptacle, a receptacle always has only one ground
screw, so the ground is never wired through the receptacle. Detaching
the ground wire from a receptacle will never interrupt the ground
continuity. I see nothing that a green wirenut with a built-in pigtail
adds to the ground continuity over a standard wirenut with a pigtail
wire coming out of it.


Clearly you have never used them and had such work inspected. Certainly
the last outlet in a chain is an exception UNLESS it is something like a
metallic box which needs grounding.


Explain how removing a single wire from a receptacle ground connection
screw will "interfere with or intrerrupt the ground continuity" of
grounds to parts of the circuit downstream from the receptacle.

Clearly I have never used green wire nuts and have had my work inspected.


Pigtailing out a ground wire with a standard wire nut also works for a
fixture. If the fixture has its own ground wire it can be wirenutted to
the pigtail ground wire.


Pigtailing from the ground bundle with a standard wire nut does not meet
code and won't pass inspection where NEC used. (most locations)


It will meet the code anywhere the NEC (not local opinion) is enforced.

Of course, use of proper materials and workmanship is up to local
inspectors. In the three northeast states I have had work inspected in,
all required grounding to be bonded via crimp or approved grounding
devices at rough in inspection. The green nut is formally approved for
such use. Grounding is inspected at rough in prior to adding fixtures.
Maybe they are over strict or maybe they are just wise.

Let's consider the context of this thread. The original poster said he
already had a pigtail wired to his outlets. I felt it worth pointing out
he can not take off the device bonding grounds to attach the pigtail.
All too often one ground does not get connected properly again with that
approach. Everything works till someone is affected by ground fault with
no effective safety ground.

I do not doubt some locals take a more relaxed view. Is it not wise to
alert the original poster that special handling of grounds are required?

It really takes little effort to make it fairly fool proof. Why do less?

gerry


The green wirenuts subract one from the number of wires spliced but have
no other effect. Wiring can easily be done without using crimps.


Chose to ignore the NEC code if you wish. The green nuts have a hole to
extend one of the existing ground wires for use as a fixture ground.
This forces the ground to be disconnected from the fixture, taking the
green wire nut off doesn't help when servicing the fixture since it's
still connected, not a pigtail.


A wire pigtailed out from a standard wirenut can be disconnected from
the fixture in the same way. The code does not mandate that
installations be idiot-proof.

You asked for the code citation, got it.


Thanks for the cite.

bud--




--

Personal home page - http://gogood.com

gerry misspelled in my email address to confuse robots

I'm a little confused here.....

If you have three ground wire segments into a recepticle box (one
pigtail attached to the outlet, one coming into the box and one exiting
the box) and remove the pigtail from the outlet (where it's screwed to
the outlet) to service it, how is the continuity of grounding for the
rest of the circuit interrupted at all? Removing the pigtail from
the outlet still allows the wires coming into and going out of the box
to remain connected and thus maintain the continuity of grounding for
the rest of the circuit.

[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On 1 Jun 2006 10:52:10 -0700, "
wrote:

I'm a little confused here.....

If you have three ground wire segments into a recepticle box (one
pigtail attached to the outlet, one coming into the box and one exiting
the box) and remove the pigtail from the outlet (where it's screwed to
the outlet) to service it, how is the continuity of grounding for the
rest of the circuit interrupted at all? Removing the pigtail from
the outlet still allows the wires coming into and going out of the box
to remain connected and thus maintain the continuity of grounding for
the rest of the circuit.


The original poster pre-wired the pigtail to the outlet. The major issue
is the grounds can not be disconnected to connect the pigtail.

There may be different interpretations in different areas. In the three
states I am certain of, the ground continuity must be secured at rough
in inspection with listed devices in a manner unlikely to be
disconnected when a fixture is installed. In those areas, that usually
means crimping or using an approved grounding wire nut, either way
having a fixture.


Check out

http://www.ecmag.com/editorial_detail.aspx?id=1433

as an example.

It is explicit that a listed means must be used. An ordinary wire nut is
not mentioned (since it is not listed for such use). Crimp sleeves,
listed clamps and green wire nuts are among those referenced for such
use. "These connection devices are specifically listed for grounding
terminations."

An image of such is on

http://www.hammerzone.com/archives/e...h/outlets.html

No, if someone can find ordinary wire nuts listed for grounding, please
post the reference.

One must keep in mind that the NEC always requires only listed materials
be used.

gerry

--

Personal home page - http://gogood.com

gerry misspelled in my email address to confuse robots

The original poster pre-wired the pigtail to the outlet. The major issue
is the grounds can not be disconnected to connect the pigtail.



Sorry if I seem a little thick here. After all, I AM the original
poster. :-)

Anyway, this is a new install of outlets on a circuit that currently is
not powered.

If I have my outlets wired with three grounds going into a standard
wire nut (one going to the outlet) I don't understand how replacing a
bad outlet will interrupt the grounding of the rest of the circuit. If
the ground wire is separated from the 'bad' outlet by loosening the
screw on the outlet where the pigtail is attached. In this scenario,
the wire nut with the three wires is never taken apart so continuity is
maintained.

Am I correct on this? Maybe I just don't understand the issue fully.
Also, I don't really understand how the green grounding wire nut
improves the situation.

The one exception to this I can see is if I replace a standard outlet
with a new one that has a pre-wired ground which can't be disconnected
on the outlet side (like maybe a GFCI or something). In this case, you
must go into the existing standard wire nut connection being used for
grounding. I can see the potential for grounding interruption in this
case.

Sorry for being a pain but I'd really appreciate some clairification.

[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On 1 Jun 2006 13:20:11 -0700, "
wrote:



The original poster pre-wired the pigtail to the outlet. The major issue
is the grounds can not be disconnected to connect the pigtail.



Sorry if I seem a little thick here. After all, I AM the original
poster. :-)

Ok What confused me is you already stated you have the jumpers on the
outlets. Do you now intent to remove them first and properly bond the
grounds at rough in?

Anyway, this is a new install of outlets on a circuit that currently is
not powered.

If I have my outlets wired with three grounds going into a standard
wire nut (one going to the outlet) I don't understand how replacing a
bad outlet will interrupt the grounding of the rest of the circuit. If
the ground wire is separated from the 'bad' outlet by loosening the
screw on the outlet where the pigtail is attached. In this scenario,
the wire nut with the three wires is never taken apart so continuity is
maintained.

You are correct, such will not interrupt the ground. But do check how
the code is interpreted in your location. As you could see by the two
articles I posted links to, special treatment of grounds is required in
many locations by their interpretation of the NEC.

I could not find a single current reference to using conventional wire
nuts in a search today. I am aware many inspectors differ, why blow a
few cents and go a route listed as approved?


Am I correct on this? Maybe I just don't understand the issue fully.
Also, I don't really understand how the green grounding wire nut
improves the situation.

An approved green nut or crimp sleeve makes removing the ground bonding
device pointless. Also, if so done and never touched, the original
circuit's safety test of proper ground is pretty difficult to disturb.
No temptation to take off the bonding device. It is a precaution
enforced in many locals.

Why would a vendor even manufacture and pay to get a green nut listed if
there was an "easy way out"?

The one exception to this I can see is if I replace a standard outlet
with a new one that has a pre-wired ground which can't be disconnected
on the outlet side (like maybe a GFCI or something). In this case, you
must go into the existing standard wire nut connection being used for
grounding. I can see the potential for grounding interruption in this
case.

Old work does not need to be retrofitted. However, with crimp or green
nut, any fixture grounds can be connected to the permanent pigtail. Such
only affects fixtures, not the rest of the circuit.

gerry

--

Personal home page - http://gogood.com

gerry misspelled in my email address to confuse robots

On Thu, 01 Jun 2006 14:34:41 -0400, gerry
wrote:

[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On 1 Jun 2006 10:52:10 -0700, "
wrote:

I'm a little confused here.....

If you have three ground wire segments into a recepticle box (one
pigtail attached to the outlet, one coming into the box and one exiting
the box) and remove the pigtail from the outlet (where it's screwed to
the outlet) to service it, how is the continuity of grounding for the
rest of the circuit interrupted at all? Removing the pigtail from
the outlet still allows the wires coming into and going out of the box
to remain connected and thus maintain the continuity of grounding for
the rest of the circuit.


The original poster pre-wired the pigtail to the outlet. The major issue
is the grounds can not be disconnected to connect the pigtail.


Any why can't you turn off the breaker when replacing an outlet?

There may be different interpretations in different areas. In the three
states I am certain of, the ground continuity must be secured at rough
in inspection with listed devices in a manner unlikely to be
disconnected when a fixture is installed. In those areas, that usually
means crimping or using an approved grounding wire nut, either way
having a fixture.


Check out

http://www.ecmag.com/editorial_detail.aspx?id=1433

as an example.

It is explicit that a listed means must be used. An ordinary wire nut is
not mentioned (since it is not listed for such use). Crimp sleeves,
listed clamps and green wire nuts are among those referenced for such
use. "These connection devices are specifically listed for grounding
terminations."

An image of such is on

http://www.hammerzone.com/archives/e...h/outlets.html

No, if someone can find ordinary wire nuts listed for grounding, please
post the reference.

One must keep in mind that the NEC always requires only listed materials
be used.

gerry
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

wrote:
The original poster pre-wired the pigtail to the outlet. The major issue
is the grounds can not be disconnected to connect the pigtail.



Sorry if I seem a little thick here. After all, I AM the original
poster. :-)

Anyway, this is a new install of outlets on a circuit that currently is
not powered.

If I have my outlets wired with three grounds going into a standard
wire nut (one going to the outlet) I don't understand how replacing a
bad outlet will interrupt the grounding of the rest of the circuit. If
the ground wire is separated from the 'bad' outlet by loosening the
screw on the outlet where the pigtail is attached. In this scenario,
the wire nut with the three wires is never taken apart so continuity is
maintained.

Am I correct on this? Maybe I just don't understand the issue fully.
Also, I don't really understand how the green grounding wire nut
improves the situation.

The one exception to this I can see is if I replace a standard outlet
with a new one that has a pre-wired ground which can't be disconnected
on the outlet side (like maybe a GFCI or something). In this case, you
must go into the existing standard wire nut connection being used for
grounding. I can see the potential for grounding interruption in this
case.

Sorry for being a pain but I'd really appreciate some clairification.


You are not being a pain. You are in fact correct that if the outlet,
and were used the metal box, are connected to jumpers which are then
spliced to the Equipment Grounding Conductors (EGCs); i.e. pigtailed;
then no such hazard exist. The insistence on green wire nuts and crimp
leaves on the part of some Authorities Having Jurisdiction (AHJ) is the
result of a misapplication of language of section 250.4(C). That
language requires that Grounding Electrode Conductors be installed
without reversible splices. vis.
250.64 Grounding Electrode Conductor Installation.
Grounding electrode conductors shall be installed as specified in
250.64(A) through (F).
(C) Continuous. The grounding electrode conductor shall be installed in
one continuous length without a splice or joint, unless spliced only by
irreversible compression-type connectors listed for the purpose or by
the exothermic welding process.
What is missing from this position is a complete appreciation of the
definition of a Grounding Conductor, Equipment verses that of a
Grounding Electrode Conductor. Vis.
Grounding Conductor, Equipment. The conductor used to connect the
non–current-carrying metal parts of equipment, raceways, and other
enclosures to the system grounded conductor, the grounding electrode
conductor, or both, at the service equipment or at the source of a
separately derived system.
Grounding Electrode Conductor. The conductor used to connect the
grounding electrode(s) to the equipment grounding conductor, to the
grounded conductor, or to both, at the service, at each building or
structure where supplied from a common service, or at the source of a
separately derived system.
This is one of the reasons that I support the proposal to change the
term "Grounding Conductor, Equipment" to "Bonding Conductor, Equipment."
The actual purpose of what we call the Equipment Grounding Conductor
(EGC) is to bond all of the non current carrying metallic parts of the
electric system to each other and, most importantly, to the grounded
current carrying conductor so as to provide a low impedance pathway back
to the source of the current in order to facilitate the operation of the
faulted circuits Over Current Protective Device (OCPD); i.e. the fuse or
circuit breaker. These conductors are installed on airplanes and on
manufactured and stick built structures that are on ice. Neither of
those can be effectively grounded but the careful installation of EGCs
still provides the needed low impedance fault clearing path. What we
are actually trying to accomplish is to bond everything that does not
carry current together.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

gerry wrote:
[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On 1 Jun 2006 13:20:11 -0700, "
wrote:
Why would a vendor even manufacture and pay to get a green nut listed if
there was an "easy way out"?

Greenies are a labor saving device rather than an answer to any real
code requirement. By leaving the source circuits EGC longer than the
others and splicing the longer one to the other EGCs with a greenie the
labor used in making up jumpers is saved. The reason those wire nuts are
listed for EGCs is that they are not suitable for splices in current
carrying conductors and the separate listing makes that clear.
--
Tom Horne

Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to.
We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you.

[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 13:40:20 GMT, "Tom Horne, Electrician"
wrote:

wrote:
The original poster pre-wired the pigtail to the outlet. The major issue
is the grounds can not be disconnected to connect the pigtail.



Sorry if I seem a little thick here. After all, I AM the original
poster. :-)

Anyway, this is a new install of outlets on a circuit that currently is
not powered.

If I have my outlets wired with three grounds going into a standard
wire nut (one going to the outlet) I don't understand how replacing a
bad outlet will interrupt the grounding of the rest of the circuit. If
the ground wire is separated from the 'bad' outlet by loosening the
screw on the outlet where the pigtail is attached. In this scenario,
the wire nut with the three wires is never taken apart so continuity is
maintained.

Am I correct on this? Maybe I just don't understand the issue fully.
Also, I don't really understand how the green grounding wire nut
improves the situation.

The one exception to this I can see is if I replace a standard outlet
with a new one that has a pre-wired ground which can't be disconnected
on the outlet side (like maybe a GFCI or something). In this case, you
must go into the existing standard wire nut connection being used for
grounding. I can see the potential for grounding interruption in this
case.

Sorry for being a pain but I'd really appreciate some clairification.


You are not being a pain. You are in fact correct that if the outlet,
and were used the metal box, are connected to jumpers which are then
spliced to the Equipment Grounding Conductors (EGCs); i.e. pigtailed;
then no such hazard exist. The insistence on green wire nuts and crimp
leaves on the part of some Authorities Having Jurisdiction (AHJ) is the
result of a misapplication of language of section 250.4(C). That
language requires that Grounding Electrode Conductors be installed
without reversible splices. vis.
250.64 Grounding Electrode Conductor Installation.
Grounding electrode conductors shall be installed as specified in
250.64(A) through (F).

Your explanation of confusion with 250.64 can't be the case with green
nuts, since they are reversible as are a number of other connection
devices less commonly used but acceptable in such jurisdictions. The
reason expressed in my local is strict interpretation that servicing a
fixture should not _risk_ disrupting a circuit's safety ground
continuity.

Certainly there is often a temptation to just take a wire nut off the
grounds when working in a box. Often fixtures are replaced by untrained
persons. Indeed, it sounded as if the poster that started this thread
intended to disconnect the grounds to attach his pre wired ground
already attached to an outlet. We need not go further than this thread
to understand that such occurs.

It really doesn't matter if I agree or not with the inspector In this
case I do see a rational, some persons might take the easy way out and
disconnect the grounds when servicing a fixture. Since they are not
tested after rough in, often changed by untrained persons and failure to
properly reconnect grounds could leave a serious safety hazard unseen.

What you cite below does not apply. It has a specific context of
grounding equipment to service entrance. In the service entrance that
earthing conductor is usually bonded via screws as are all branch safety
grounds. Screws are very "reversible" None of the methods acceptable in
250.64 are commonly used in common home branch wiring even where strict
interpretation of 250.148 as discussed before in this thread is applied.

I have not experienced ANY AHJ confusing 250.64 with stick use of
250.148 which is not to claim some have not. A branch circuit's safety
ground almost always connects to the earthing conductor via a reversible
set screw.

Whatever is "right" or "wrong", the original poster should consult his
local authority for their interpretations.

gerry


(C) Continuous. The grounding electrode conductor shall be installed in
one continuous length without a splice or joint, unless spliced only by
irreversible compression-type connectors listed for the purpose or by
the exothermic welding process.
What is missing from this position is a complete appreciation of the
definition of a Grounding Conductor, Equipment verses that of a
Grounding Electrode Conductor. Vis.
Grounding Conductor, Equipment. The conductor used to connect the
non–current-carrying metal parts of equipment, raceways, and other
enclosures to the system grounded conductor, the grounding electrode
conductor, or both, at the service equipment or at the source of a
separately derived system.
Grounding Electrode Conductor. The conductor used to connect the
grounding electrode(s) to the equipment grounding conductor, to the
grounded conductor, or to both, at the service, at each building or
structure where supplied from a common service, or at the source of a
separately derived system.
This is one of the reasons that I support the proposal to change the
term "Grounding Conductor, Equipment" to "Bonding Conductor, Equipment."
The actual purpose of what we call the Equipment Grounding Conductor
(EGC) is to bond all of the non current carrying metallic parts of the
electric system to each other and, most importantly, to the grounded
current carrying conductor so as to provide a low impedance pathway back
to the source of the current in order to facilitate the operation of the
faulted circuits Over Current Protective Device (OCPD); i.e. the fuse or
circuit breaker. These conductors are installed on airplanes and on
manufactured and stick built structures that are on ice. Neither of
those can be effectively grounded but the careful installation of EGCs
still provides the needed low impedance fault clearing path. What we
are actually trying to accomplish is to bond everything that does not
carry current together.


--

Personal home page - http://gogood.com

gerry misspelled in my email address to confuse robots

[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 13:49:20 GMT, "Thomas D. Horne, FF EMT"
wrote:

gerry wrote:
[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On 1 Jun 2006 13:20:11 -0700, "
wrote:
Why would a vendor even manufacture and pay to get a green nut listed if
there was an "easy way out"?

Greenies are a labor saving device rather than an answer to any real
code requirement. By leaving the source circuits EGC longer than the
others and splicing the longer one to the other EGCs with a greenie the
labor used in making up jumpers is saved. The reason those wire nuts are
listed for EGCs is that they are not suitable for splices in current
carrying conductors and the separate listing makes that clear.

I never found them labor saving and certainly not cost savings. If you
strip one cable long enough for a pigtail, it is as easy to cut it and
tuck it under a regular wire nut than carry yet another wire nut type
around.

You will never find a green colored connector listed for current
carrying use Green has a very special meaning.

Since a safety ground must be rated to carry a branch circuits full
current and as reliable as any current carrying device, it certainly is
not an inherent limitation of the device.

In jurisdictions I am familiar with that require them or crimped
grounds, the grounds must be bonded and pushed to the back of the box
with a freely accessible pigtail(s) at rough in inspection. This is an
attempt to insure the circuit's ground safety is not compromised at a
later time.

gerry

--

Personal home page - http://gogood.com

gerry misspelled in my email address to confuse robots

[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 13:49:20 GMT, "Thomas D. Horne, FF EMT"
wrote:

gerry wrote:
[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On 1 Jun 2006 13:20:11 -0700, "
wrote:
Why would a vendor even manufacture and pay to get a green nut listed if
there was an "easy way out"?

Greenies are a labor saving device rather than an answer to any real
code requirement. By leaving the source circuits EGC longer than the
others and splicing the longer one to the other EGCs with a greenie the
labor used in making up jumpers is saved. The reason those wire nuts are
listed for EGCs is that they are not suitable for splices in current
carrying conductors and the separate listing makes that clear.


This may clarify the issue somewhat. Three things are important, NEC, UL
and local jurisdiction. Regular wire nuts may or may not be UL listed
for grounding. A listed device must be used. ANY jurisdiction is allowed
to determine their code.

The link and quote below is from UL. About the only two things that are
clear are the connector must be listed for grounding and a greenie will
pass almost everywhere since it is explicitly listed for such use.

Good read at

http://www.mikeholt.com/code_forum/s...ad.php?t=69751

(
This is from the above mentioned Mike Holt newsletter - this is the UL
response regarding 'green' wire nuts being required.


Answer 2: UL Response
Mike – I’d like to respond to your inquiry to UL regarding the use of
twist-on type wire connectors for connecting equipment grounding
conductors. I believe that to properly answer this inquiry we need to
reference requirements in both the NEC and the guide information which
UL provides for listed products.
Sec. 250-8 of the NEC indicates that grounding conductors shall be
connected by exothermic welding, listed pressure connectors, listed
clamps, or other listed means. Pressure wire connectors are listed under
the category of Wire Connectors and Soldering Lugs (UL Guide ZMVV). A
“twist-on” connector is a type of pressure cable connector that is
tested to the UL Standard for Splicing Wire Connectors, UL486C. The
requirements for these connectors include mechanical securement tests,
as well as their ability to carry continuous current within acceptable
temperature limits. Listed products in this category are identified by
the words “Wire Connector” (or abbreviation there of) near the UL
Listing Mark which may be on the product or smallest unit container.
Based on this information, a listed “Wire Connector,” including the
twist-on type, should be suitable for connecting equipment grounding
conductors. There was also some question regarding the color of the
connector insulation. Listed insulated twist-on type wire connectors are
typically provided in a variety of insulation colors, however, to the
best of our knowledge we have not listed a wire connector with green
color insulation.
NEC Sec. 250-119 requires covered or insulated equipment grounding
conductors to have a green or green with yellow stripes outer finish,
but there is no NEC requirement for the color of the insulation of a
wire connector used to connect equipment grounding conductors.
NEC Sec. 250-8 also permits “other listed means” for connecting
grounding conductors. UL has a category for Grounding and Bonding
Equipment (UL Guide KDER). Grounding Connectors are a special type of
connector that is tested to the UL467 Standard for Grounding and Bonding
Equipment. The requirements for grounding connectors include mechanical
securement tests, but unlike wire connectors, these connectors are not
subjected to a continuous current test. In lieu of this test, there is a
special short time current test in UL467 to show the ability of a
grounding connector to safely conduct fault current. There are some
listed twist-on type connectors with green color insulation that are
listed as grounding connectors. Listed products in this category are
identified by the words “Grounding Connector” (or abbreviation there of)
near the UL Listing Mark which may be on the product or smallest unit
container.
It should be noted that grounding connectors are only used for
connecting grounding conductors, and unlike listed wire connectors,
cannot be used to connect current carrying conductors (including
grounded and ungrounded conductors). There are some listed Wire
Connectors of the twist-on type that are also tested and complementary
listed as Grounding Connectors, and the listing mark information for
these products will identify them as both. The insulation on these
connectors (with both listings) can be various colors, except green. We
understand that some jurisdictional authorities may require listed
grounding connectors for connecting equipment grounding conductors, and
some may require only those with green insulation, and this is certainly
permitted by Sec. 90-4 of the NEC. To satisfy this need, the listing
categories of “Grounding Connectors”, and “Wire Connectors complementary
listed as Grounding Connectors” were established for the manufacturers
of these products.
}

gerry

--

Personal home page - http://gogood.com

gerry misspelled in my email address to confuse robots

[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 16:21:14 GMT, "Member, Takoma Park Volunteer Fire
Department" wrote:


I never found them labor saving and certainly not cost savings. If you
strip one cable long enough for a pigtail, it is as easy to cut it and
tuck it under a regular wire nut than carry yet another wire nut type
around.

You will never find a green colored connector listed for current
carrying use Green has a very special meaning.

Since a safety ground must be rated to carry a branch circuits full
current and as reliable as any current carrying device, it certainly is
not an inherent limitation of the device.

In jurisdictions I am familiar with that require them or crimped
grounds, the grounds must be bonded and pushed to the back of the box
with a freely accessible pigtail(s) at rough in inspection. This is an
attempt to insure the circuit's ground safety is not compromised at a
later time.

gerry


In the absence of a local amendment to the NEC it is an abuse of the
AHJ's authority to require something that the code does not require.
The purpose of a rough in inspection is to allow the AHJ to inspect what
would not later be visible. That does not include anything inside the
box. That is not to say that I think that pig tailing is a bad idea. I
believe it is best practice. That being said the code is not best
practice. The codes own language says it is what is necessary to
achieve a reasonable level of safety from the hazards arising out of the
use of electricity.

NEC is not law anyplace! Many local codes derive theirs (often verbatim)
from NEC and many formally leave determination of workmanship to the
appointed inspector. Even verbatim, NEC requires listed devices be used
everywhere. That get's UL in the picture.

Bonding of grounds can not be examined once fixtures are in place. We
have rough in and finish inspections. The only chance to view the ground
bonding is at rough in.

gerry


--

Personal home page - http://gogood.com

gerry misspelled in my email address to confuse robots

[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 16:21:14 GMT, "Member, Takoma Park Volunteer Fire
Department" wrote:


In the absence of a local amendment to the NEC it is an abuse of the
AHJ's authority to require something that the code does not require.


Read NEC 90.4

gerry

--

Personal home page - http://gogood.com

gerry misspelled in my email address to confuse robots

gerry wrote:
[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 16:21:14 GMT, "Member, Takoma Park Volunteer Fire
Department" wrote:


In the absence of a local amendment to the NEC it is an abuse of the
AHJ's authority to require something that the code does not require.


Read NEC 90.4

gerry


I have read it. The phrase "the responsibility for making
interpretations of the rules" is often used as a refuge for untrained
and incompetent inspectors to claim that they can enforce whatever they
please rather than what is written in the code. I have also heard it
read to appeals boards during appeals. The administrative law advisers;
usually the county solicitor; often speaks up to say that interpretation
does not include the application of unwritten provisions. Such
unwritten rules are the very definition of arbitrary and capricious acts
according to the US supreme court. It is also worth noting that the
individual inspectors are not the AHJ! In almost all cases they are
agents of the AHJ in carrying out their responsibility under the
adoption act.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

90.4 Enforcement.
This Code is intended to be suitable for mandatory application by
governmental bodies that exercise legal jurisdiction over electrical
installations, including signaling and communications systems, and for
use by insurance inspectors. The authority having jurisdiction for
enforcement of the Code has the responsibility for making
interpretations of the rules, for deciding on the approval of equipment
and materials, and for granting the special permission contemplated in a
number of the rules.
By special permission, the authority having jurisdiction may waive
specific requirements in this Code or permit alternative methods where
it is assured that equivalent objectives can be achieved by establishing
and maintaining effective safety.
This Code may require new products, constructions, or materials that may
not yet be available at the time the Code is adopted. In such event, the
authority having jurisdiction may permit the use of the products,
constructions, or materials that comply with the most recent previous
edition of this Code adopted by the jurisdiction. (Copyright 2002
National Fire Protection Association)

gerry wrote:
[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 13:40:20 GMT, "Tom Horne, Electrician"
wrote:


wrote:

The original poster pre-wired the pigtail to the outlet. The major issue
is the grounds can not be disconnected to connect the pigtail.



Sorry if I seem a little thick here. After all, I AM the original
poster. :-)

Anyway, this is a new install of outlets on a circuit that currently is
not powered.

If I have my outlets wired with three grounds going into a standard
wire nut (one going to the outlet) I don't understand how replacing a
bad outlet will interrupt the grounding of the rest of the circuit. If
the ground wire is separated from the 'bad' outlet by loosening the
screw on the outlet where the pigtail is attached. In this scenario,
the wire nut with the three wires is never taken apart so continuity is
maintained.

Am I correct on this? Maybe I just don't understand the issue fully.
Also, I don't really understand how the green grounding wire nut
improves the situation.


(Neither do I.)

The one exception to this I can see is if I replace a standard outlet
with a new one that has a pre-wired ground which can't be disconnected
on the outlet side (like maybe a GFCI or something). In this case, you
must go into the existing standard wire nut connection being used for
grounding. I can see the potential for grounding interruption in this
case.


In that case you can remove the ground wire from the old outlet and wire
nut it to the ground wire from the new outlet.

Sorry for being a pain but I'd really appreciate some clairification.


You are not being a pain. You are in fact correct that if the outlet,
and were used the metal box, are connected to jumpers which are then
spliced to the Equipment Grounding Conductors (EGCs); i.e. pigtailed;
then no such hazard exist. The insistence on green wire nuts and crimp
leaves on the part of some Authorities Having Jurisdiction (AHJ) is the
result of a misapplication of language of section 250.4(C). That
language requires that Grounding Electrode Conductors be installed
without reversible splices. vis.
250.64 Grounding Electrode Conductor Installation.
Grounding electrode conductors shall be installed as specified in
250.64(A) through (F).

Tom: 250.4(C) doesn't exist? Different section?

The linked EC&M article (which is also on the UL site) refers to 250.8:
"Grounding conductors and bonding jumpers shall be connected by
exothermic welding, listed pressure connectors, listed clamps, or other
listed means. ...."
The article, which is under the umbrella of 250.8, talks about green
wire nuts as listed for grounding. It appears that 250.8 is being
intrepreted as requiring wire nuts to be listed for grounding (rather
than just listed as a connector). Seems more likely to me than
250.148(B). (Which is not intended to criticize your cite of 250.148,
damned hard to find the basis for some code calls.)


Your explanation of confusion with 250.64 can't be the case with green
nuts, since they are reversible as are a number of other connection
devices less commonly used but acceptable in such jurisdictions. The
reason expressed in my local is strict interpretation that servicing a
fixture should not _risk_ disrupting a circuit's safety ground
continuity.


My understanding of Tom's argument was that a 250.4(C) (which doesn't
exist?) repeated requirements of 250.64 including irreversible (your
crimps), and that 250.4(C) was missapplied to bond/ground wires.


Whatever is "right" or "wrong", the original poster should consult his
local authority for their interpretations.


The bottom line. It is annoying that code language permits this kind of
disagreement.


This is one of the reasons that I support the proposal to change the
term "Grounding Conductor, Equipment" to "Bonding Conductor, Equipment."

I saw a video from Mike Holt where he used "bonding" and "earthing"
instead of "grounding". I like the split, and getting rid of "ground".
IMHO one reasons article 250 is confusing is the lack of clarity of
whether a section is about bonding or earthing.

bud--

[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 18:19:03 GMT, "Member, Takoma Park Volunteer Fire
Department" wrote:

gerry wrote:
[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 16:21:14 GMT, "Member, Takoma Park Volunteer Fire
Department" wrote:


I never found them labor saving and certainly not cost savings. If you
strip one cable long enough for a pigtail, it is as easy to cut it and
tuck it under a regular wire nut than carry yet another wire nut type
around.

You will never find a green colored connector listed for current
carrying use Green has a very special meaning.

Since a safety ground must be rated to carry a branch circuits full
current and as reliable as any current carrying device, it certainly is
not an inherent limitation of the device.

In jurisdictions I am familiar with that require them or crimped
grounds, the grounds must be bonded and pushed to the back of the box
with a freely accessible pigtail(s) at rough in inspection. This is an
attempt to insure the circuit's ground safety is not compromised at a
later time.

gerry

In the absence of a local amendment to the NEC it is an abuse of the
AHJ's authority to require something that the code does not require.
The purpose of a rough in inspection is to allow the AHJ to inspect what
would not later be visible. That does not include anything inside the
box. That is not to say that I think that pig tailing is a bad idea. I
believe it is best practice. That being said the code is not best
practice. The codes own language says it is what is necessary to
achieve a reasonable level of safety from the hazards arising out of the
use of electricity.

NEC is not law anyplace! Many local codes derive theirs (often verbatim)
from NEC and many formally leave determination of workmanship to the
appointed inspector. Even verbatim, NEC requires listed devices be used
everywhere. That get's UL in the picture.

Bonding of grounds can not be examined once fixtures are in place. We
have rough in and finish inspections. The only chance to view the ground
bonding is at rough in.

gerry



Gerry
I'm sure your aware that many jurisdictions adopt the NEC by reference.
Once the legislative body passes that adoption and the executive signs
the bill the NEC is in fact law in that jurisdiction.

If by reference, correct. Many states also add additional requirements
as a addenda or prefix. My point was simply that the law is state or
local, not NEC itself. Often such law refers to a specific dated version
of the NEC. It must where exception or additional requirements reference
NEC.


Inspectors who
make up rules as they go along are just acting like petty tin pot gods
by abusing their authority.

There is a major difference between individual inspectors acting like
god and statewide adoption of convention. In my state, the ground
bonding issue discussed here is indeed statewide.


90.1 Purpose.


Look at 90.4. It gives ALL interpretation to the AHJ. Of course it
doesn't define AHJ, that is often state or local, not an individual. I
believe rural Maine actually still delegates it to the power company! My
state adopts a specific dated NEC with stricter addenda as basis. Local
governments are free to add their addenda if they so choose as long as
stricter than the state's.


I can agree that requiring the EGCs to be made up using listed
connectors before rough in is a reasonable step to assure that the
installation of the EGCs is complete as built even though many
jurisdictions I have worked in did not. What I cannot accept is
forbidding the use of wire nuts, which are in fact listed for that
application, or requiring the use of specific connectors when other
connectors are listed for that use. It has been my experience, over
thirty five years in the craft, that a crimp sleeve, even when installed
with the proper crimper, is not as good a connection as a properly
applied wire nut.

I think we agree crimps are overrated! Of course, I wonder how many were
done without the correct tool. But a few tugs will loosen many crimps.

I had a simple reason for my suggestion:

Repeated (in context of residential NM wiring)

Bond all grounds with a green grounding rated wire nut with a pigtail
for fixtures. Dress these neatly to the back of the box with the pigtail
available for fixture grounding. Do this prior to rough in inspection.

This has the following advantages:

- is ONE example of good workmanship

- is low cost

- requires no special crimping tools (NEC prohibits using pliers...)

- will pass code just about everyplace. This is important on the
internet since one does not need specific knowledge of the location.

I am well aware many localities not so restrictive, but the above method
works well without knowing the local regulations applying to a poster.
If a simple cheap method is fairly universal, why not pick it as a
recommendation on the internet?

gerry

--

Personal home page - http://gogood.com

gerry misspelled in my email address to confuse robots

[original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 13:56:58 -0500, Bud--
wrote:


Whatever is "right" or "wrong", the original poster should consult his
local authority for their interpretations.


The bottom line. It is annoying that code language permits this kind of
disagreement.

You will get no argument from me on that.

This is one of the reasons that I support the proposal to change the
term "Grounding Conductor, Equipment" to "Bonding Conductor, Equipment."

I saw a video from Mike Holt where he used "bonding" and "earthing"
instead of "grounding". I like the split, and getting rid of "ground".
IMHO one reasons article 250 is confusing is the lack of clarity of
whether a section is about bonding or earthing.

bud--


Grounding and earthing are important different concepts worth
understanding. Engineering has used different symbols for the two for a
LONG time.

Grounding in engineering means bonding to a common reference. That
ensures a fault doesn't create a situation where two surfaces have a
different potential where an object (such as a human) would be damaged
(injured) from contact with both.

Earthing bonds (or attempts to) that protective circuit with the
environment (earth). It is really handy when you grab an outside water
faucet in bare feet with a faulty neutral from the service drop.

gerry

--

Personal home page - http://gogood.com

gerry misspelled in my email address to confuse robots