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#1
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Is Knob-and-Tube *Always* Dangerous?
I'm sure this question has been posted and answered a thousand times
here, but a family member who routinely asks me to walk-through homes she is interested in buying (because, as a walking Typhoid Mary of Money Pits, I have hard-earned knowledge) has asked me to jump on a particularly desirable (location, location, location) multi-unit this AM. One half of this duplex has knob-and-tube. I have read conflicting estimates of the integrity and safety of knob-and-tube on this group and other web sites. But I'm scheduled to go through the home in two hours and thought I'd post and maybe get some fresh insights. From the street, and as far as the exterior foundation goes, this home is an absolute steal (new roof, great landscaping, has it all). My family member needs a place to run to as the result of a divorce and won't be able to take on both the mortgage and a complete rewire at the time of sale; hence, my post. Thank you as always for your responses. |
#2
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Is Knob-and-Tube *Always* Dangerous?
knob and tube is ungrounded, as was lots of Romex installed in the 50's and
60's . In some places its unprotected and subject to mechanical damage. The stuff is OLD, but in my experience, most of the K&T I've seen, has been in excellent condition, unlike rubber covered conductors of BX cables from the 40's and 50's, which breaks down and crumbles from heat. I would ultimately replace it, but I wouldn't feel in any hurry to do it yesterday wrote in message ups.com... I'm sure this question has been posted and answered a thousand times here, but a family member who routinely asks me to walk-through homes she is interested in buying (because, as a walking Typhoid Mary of Money Pits, I have hard-earned knowledge) has asked me to jump on a particularly desirable (location, location, location) multi-unit this AM. One half of this duplex has knob-and-tube. I have read conflicting estimates of the integrity and safety of knob-and-tube on this group and other web sites. But I'm scheduled to go through the home in two hours and thought I'd post and maybe get some fresh insights. From the street, and as far as the exterior foundation goes, this home is an absolute steal (new roof, great landscaping, has it all). My family member needs a place to run to as the result of a divorce and won't be able to take on both the mortgage and a complete rewire at the time of sale; hence, my post. Thank you as always for your responses. |
#3
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Is Knob-and-Tube *Always* Dangerous?
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#4
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Is Knob-and-Tube *Always* Dangerous?
probably CANT get homeowners or a mortage with K&T most insurance
wouldnt cover it as a fire hazard. connections are soldered in the wall, without a box surrounding it. unlike today all coinnections are in boxes. after many years and heavy loads the solder weakens and the connection can overheat and cause a fire, that happened to a buddy of mine fortunately in his open basement cieling he smelled smoke and put it out. in a closed wall the house will go up in smoke. have friends whos homeowners inspected their home and REQUIRED rewiring for just this reason. deduct cost of rewire from home sale price and for futher savings get a home inspector they arent perfect but every trouble they find is money in your pocket. call your insurance agent and ask about K&T and please report back here what they tell you... K&T would be safe IF the connections had been made in BOXES but back then no one thought of it |
#5
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Is Knob-and-Tube *Always* Dangerous?
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#7
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Is Knob-and-Tube *Always* Dangerous?
I'm working on a clients house that has K&T. It's a very large house
and the entire 2nd floor and part of the first is K&T and on one breaker! These people were running an ac unit and 3 TVs plus all the lights. The problem with replacing this stuff is that all the connections are buried and hard to find. I've had to make large inspection holes to make sure I've pulled out all of the connections. I've also had a neighbor not quite completely close a hot water radiator bleed vent. The dripping water from the second floor ran down a major junction of mineral coated K&T in the kitchen. It started a fire in the wall where there were 5 switches. The responding firemen had to completely chop out the wall and part of the ceiling to make sure the fire was out. Richard wrote: probably CANT get homeowners or a mortage with K&T most insurance wouldnt cover it as a fire hazard. connections are soldered in the wall, without a box surrounding it. unlike today all coinnections are in boxes. after many years and heavy loads the solder weakens and the connection can overheat and cause a fire, that happened to a buddy of mine fortunately in his open basement cieling he smelled smoke and put it out. in a closed wall the house will go up in smoke. have friends whos homeowners inspected their home and REQUIRED rewiring for just this reason. deduct cost of rewire from home sale price and for futher savings get a home inspector they arent perfect but every trouble they find is money in your pocket. call your insurance agent and ask about K&T and please report back here what they tell you... K&T would be safe IF the connections had been made in BOXES but back then no one thought of it |
#8
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Is Knob-and-Tube *Always* Dangerous?
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#9
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Is Knob-and-Tube *Always* Dangerous?
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#10
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Is Knob-and-Tube *Always* Dangerous?
The only way that the solder will fail on Knob and Tube wiring is if the circuits were fused with improperly sized fuses. If the circuits are protected with properly sized fuses K&T will last for decades. -- Tom Horne OBVIOUSLY you dont know enough about solder, over LONG times it wiskers and detoriates. now K&T is likey 50 years old or more, and quality of metals and solder wasnt great way back then. I fix office machines for a living, at one time did tv and other appliance repair. in that time every now and then would find a bad solder joint, that had workewd forever. frequently in low power circuits where it wasnt and couldnt be overloaded. Insurance doesnt like K&T because it cost them too much in fire losses,,,,,,, otherwise they wouldnt care!! you go right ahead thinking K&T is safe, all those insurancer companies just dont know what they are talking about |
#11
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Is Knob-and-Tube *Always* Dangerous?
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#12
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Is Knob-and-Tube *Always* Dangerous?
wrote:
The only way that the solder will fail on Knob and Tube wiring is if the circuits were fused with improperly sized fuses. If the circuits are protected with properly sized fuses K&T will last for decades. -- Tom Horne OBVIOUSLY you dont know enough about solder, over LONG times it wiskers and detoriates. now K&T is likey 50 years old or more, and quality of metals and solder wasnt great way back then. I fix office machines for a living, at one time did tv and other appliance repair. in that time every now and then would find a bad solder joint, that had workewd forever. frequently in low power circuits where it wasnt and couldnt be overloaded. Insurance doesnt like K&T because it cost them too much in fire losses,,,,,,, otherwise they wouldnt care!! you go right ahead thinking K&T is safe, all those insurancer companies just dont know what they are talking about Below are a couple of links to consider wrt knob & tube wiring. Although my experience is limited, the times I have seen crumbling wire insulation with K&T is where it joined ceiling light fixtures, and that was because of the heat (over heating) due to the fixtures. In some such cases it was possible to (properly) solder a replacement extension onto such a wire and then use a sleeve to cover that, followed by the installation of a junction box to hold the wire safely in place and connect to the fixture. Whenever possible I replace K&T, but when not reasonable to replace, I would be sure the circuit is on a 15A max breaker. Usually receptacles, which is where the greatest loads exist, and where a ground is especially desirable, can be more easily rewired with romex. http://www.waptac.org/sp.asp?id=7190 http://www.maine.gov/pfr/ins/hearing_2003-13680.htm These links are especially interesting and deserve a full reading. My comments are just my own opinions and ideas. --Phil |
#13
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Is Knob-and-Tube *Always* Dangerous?
Since the days of knob-and-tube, a lot of experience has been gained from a
safety standpoint. Many changes have been made to the electrical code which make things a whole lot safer. And the safety aspect means protection of life and property. Over the years there have been fires and people electrocuted for this or that reason. Then the electrical codes have been changed to prevent these things from happening in the future. With that said, the safest thing to do would be to re-wire the house to the latest electrical codes. Also many years ago they did not have the electrical needs we have today. So there is the daily pain in the you know what factor. Not enough outlets, many rooms on one circuit and not enough capacity. Old outlets where you need to jiggle the plug in the outlet to get it to work, etc. Having all new grounded wiring and plenty of outlets/capacity can make day-to-day living a whole lot more pleasant. It's nice to have outlets where you need them and not need to jiggle the plug to get it to work. |
#14
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Is Knob-and-Tube *Always* Dangerous?
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#15
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Is Knob-and-Tube *Always* Dangerous?
Tom Horne, Electrician wrote: wrote: after many years and heavy loads the solder weakens and the connection can overheat and cause a fire, that happened to a buddy of mine fortunately in his open basement cieling he smelled smoke and put it out. The only way that the solder will fail on Knob and Tube wiring is if the circuits were fused with improperly sized fuses. If the circuits are protected with properly sized fuses K&T will last for decades. -- Tom Horne "This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous for general use." Thomas Alva Edison I won't disagree, but will point out that it has been in place for decades- at least 6 of 'em, if not more. D |
#16
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Is Knob-and-Tube *Always* Dangerous?
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#17
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Is Knob-and-Tube *Always* Dangerous?
One problem with K&T is that whatever the condition of the original
material, it's seldom properly connected to more modern wiring: http://www.codecheck.com/images/CCWe18.gif and every incorrect junction is a potential problem. Another is that users may overload K&T circuits - a single K&T circuit often serves potential loads that would be split between multiple circuits in a more recenly installed system. In my area it's not unusual to find a single K&T circuit powering all the lights and receptacles in three or four bedrooms and a bath on a top floor, but power demands have increased (no window ACs back then!) and users many be tempted to "overfuse" such circuits in an attempt to supply sufficient power to loads at multiple locations on a single circuit. So depending on the situation, when you have electrician throughly inspect a K&T installation and identify existing defects you will often find it's also desirable to pull additional circuits to meet modern demands - in which case it's likely not all that much more expensive to bypass the K&T with new circuits entirely. Michael Thomas Paragon Home Inspection, LLC mdt@paragoninspectsDOTcom 847-475-5668 .. |
#18
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Is Knob-and-Tube *Always* Dangerous?
Insurance KNOWS its fire hazard rate is higher, and buying a preowned
home its possible others did unsafe changes to the wiring. Things DONBT last forever and K&T is just another thing......... solder can and does fail over time espically if anyone used acid flux when making repairs, its great for plumbing but unsafe for electrical wires. if your defending K&T please state if your home has that wiring..... thanks |
#19
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Is Knob-and-Tube *Always* Dangerous?
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#20
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Is Knob-and-Tube *Always* Dangerous?
On 25 Jul 2006 06:41:06 -0700, "z" wrote:
Pete C. wrote: wrote: I'm sure this question has been posted and answered a thousand times here, but a family member who routinely asks me to walk-through homes she is interested in buying (because, as a walking Typhoid Mary of Money Pits, I have hard-earned knowledge) has asked me to jump on a particularly desirable (location, location, location) multi-unit this AM. One half of this duplex has knob-and-tube. I have read conflicting estimates of the integrity and safety of knob-and-tube on this group and other web sites. But I'm scheduled to go through the home in two hours and thought I'd post and maybe get some fresh insights. From the street, and as far as the exterior foundation goes, this home is an absolute steal (new roof, great landscaping, has it all). My family member needs a place to run to as the result of a divorce and won't be able to take on both the mortgage and a complete rewire at the time of sale; hence, my post. Thank you as always for your responses. The deciding factor is not whether it is dangerous, which it rarely is unless it's been messed with, but rather whether you can get insurance for the place with K&T. Most insurance companies are absurdly paranoid about K&T and indeed any electrical older than about 30-40yrs. Pete C. At risk of getting into tinfoilhatland, literally, I'd just point out that the electrical fields from knob and tube are (I would guess) quite a bit higher than modern wiring, even without metal shielding, due to the conductors being further apart. The significant health effects, if any, I leave to other posters to argue about. (I would also guess it's not a significant risk compared to fire or not supplying a ground). Which reminds me; a while ago it was posted here that GFIs don't need a ground. Is that true? Could you eliminate the ungrounded risk by just replacing the outlets with GFIs? No, you need the ground. That's an important part of the whole system. And you have the electric field problem exactly backwards. The widely spaced conductors will carry about half the field strength of normal wiring. Those two conductors in normal wiring are both throwing off electric fields. |
#21
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Is Knob-and-Tube *Always* Dangerous?
wrote in message ... wrote: after many years and heavy loads the solder weakens and the connection can overheat and cause a fire... No. Fuses and circuit breakers prevent that. Fuses and breakers protect against overcurrent situations - not overheating due to deteriorating connections. Bob |
#22
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Is Knob-and-Tube *Always* Dangerous?
On 25 Jul 2006 10:24:34 -0700, "
wrote: Insurance KNOWS its fire hazard rate is higher, and buying a preowned home its possible others did unsafe changes to the wiring. Things DONBT last forever and K&T is just another thing......... solder can and does fail over time espically if anyone used acid flux when making repairs, its great for plumbing but unsafe for electrical wires. if your defending K&T please state if your home has that wiring..... thanks Mine does. In an english-style loop around the attic, feeding the attic lights, and drops to all the outlets on the second floor. It hasn't burnt down yet. As long as you remember that you've got a 60 year old wiring system, and don't abuse it, it should be fine. When you GET the chance to replace it you should, but it shouldn't be a deal-breaker on an otherwise good house. |
#23
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Is Knob-and-Tube *Always* Dangerous?
Bob wrote:
Fuses and breakers protect against overcurrent situations - not overheating due to deteriorating connections. Would you have any evidence that solder connections deteriorate over time, if they are not overheated? Nick |
#24
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Is Knob-and-Tube *Always* Dangerous?
On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 07:01:00 -0400, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote: knob and tube is ungrounded, as was lots of Romex installed in the 50's and 60's . In some places its unprotected and subject to mechanical damage. The stuff is OLD, but in my experience, most of the K&T I've seen, has been in excellent condition, unlike rubber covered conductors of BX cables from the 40's and 50's, which breaks down and crumbles from heat. I would ultimately replace it, but I wouldn't feel in any hurry to do it yesterday wrote in message oups.com... I'm sure this question has been posted and answered a thousand times here, but a family member who routinely asks me to walk-through homes she is interested in buying (because, as a walking Typhoid Mary of Money Pits, I have hard-earned knowledge) has asked me to jump on a particularly desirable (location, location, location) multi-unit this AM. One half of this duplex has knob-and-tube. I have read conflicting estimates of the integrity and safety of knob-and-tube on this group and other web sites. But I'm scheduled to go through the home in two hours and thought I'd post and maybe get some fresh insights. From the street, and as far as the exterior foundation goes, this home is an absolute steal (new roof, great landscaping, has it all). My family member needs a place to run to as the result of a divorce and won't be able to take on both the mortgage and a complete rewire at the time of sale; hence, my post. Thank you as always for your responses. I wish they still used K+T wiring. It was the safest method available, except for those funky exposed scrrews on the turn switches. All they need to do is put a cover over the switches and add a 3rd wire for grounding. |
#25
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Is Knob-and-Tube *Always* Dangerous?
JimL wrote:
On 25 Jul 2006 06:41:06 -0700, "z" wrote: Pete C. wrote: wrote: I'm sure this question has been posted and answered a thousand times here, but a family member who routinely asks me to walk-through homes she is interested in buying (because, as a walking Typhoid Mary of Money Pits, I have hard-earned knowledge) has asked me to jump on a particularly desirable (location, location, location) multi-unit this AM. One half of this duplex has knob-and-tube. I have read conflicting estimates of the integrity and safety of knob-and-tube on this group and other web sites. But I'm scheduled to go through the home in two hours and thought I'd post and maybe get some fresh insights. From the street, and as far as the exterior foundation goes, this home is an absolute steal (new roof, great landscaping, has it all). My family member needs a place to run to as the result of a divorce and won't be able to take on both the mortgage and a complete rewire at the time of sale; hence, my post. Thank you as always for your responses. The deciding factor is not whether it is dangerous, which it rarely is unless it's been messed with, but rather whether you can get insurance for the place with K&T. Most insurance companies are absurdly paranoid about K&T and indeed any electrical older than about 30-40yrs. Pete C. At risk of getting into tinfoilhatland, literally, I'd just point out that the electrical fields from knob and tube are (I would guess) quite a bit higher than modern wiring, even without metal shielding, due to the conductors being further apart. The significant health effects, if any, I leave to other posters to argue about. (I would also guess it's not a significant risk compared to fire or not supplying a ground). Which reminds me; a while ago it was posted here that GFIs don't need a ground. Is that true? Could you eliminate the ungrounded risk by just replacing the outlets with GFIs? No, you need the ground. That's an important part of the whole system. You *can* use GFCIs on circuits without grounds as a retrofit. They will not provide the full protection that they do with the ground connection, but they do provide some protection. The GFCIs come packaged with labels that include a "No equipment ground" warning label for just such applications. It is still far better to just rewire if at all possible. And you have the electric field problem exactly backwards. The widely spaced conductors will carry about half the field strength of normal wiring. Those two conductors in normal wiring are both throwing off electric fields. Those two conductors are throwing off opposite fields that will cancel. This is why clamp on amp probes (not the new hall effect type) have to be clamped around just one of the conductors. Pete C. |
#26
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Is Knob-and-Tube *Always* Dangerous?
MDT at Paragon Home Inspections, LLC wrote: One problem with K&T is that whatever the condition of the original material, it's seldom properly connected to more modern wiring: http://www.codecheck.com/images/CCWe18.gif and every incorrect junction is a potential problem. Another is that users may overload K&T circuits - a single K&T circuit often serves potential loads that would be split between multiple circuits in a more recenly installed system. In my area it's not unusual to find a single K&T circuit powering all the lights and receptacles in three or four bedrooms and a bath on a top floor, but power demands have increased (no window ACs back then!) and users many be tempted to "overfuse" such circuits in an attempt to supply sufficient power to loads at multiple locations on a single circuit. So depending on the situation, when you have electrician throughly inspect a K&T installation and identify existing defects you will often find it's also desirable to pull additional circuits to meet modern demands - in which case it's likely not all that much more expensive to bypass the K&T with new circuits entirely. Michael Thomas Paragon Home Inspection, LLC mdt@paragoninspectsDOTcom 847-475-5668 . I agree with all of this but the most dangerous part are comnnections buried in walls where they cant be inspected and may catch fire under a long list of possible reasons. insurance has good reasons for their rules........... |
#27
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Is Knob-and-Tube *Always* Dangerous?
wrote in message ... Bob wrote: Fuses and breakers protect against overcurrent situations - not overheating due to deteriorating connections. Would you have any evidence that solder connections deteriorate over time, if they are not overheated? No Bob |
#28
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Is Knob-and-Tube *Always* Dangerous?
Never heard of such a thing. All over the NE houses have K&T, and they all
have insurance. AFAIK, the NEC still recognizes K&T, so I can't imagine why insurance companies would have any problem with it wrote in message oups.com... probably CANT get homeowners or a mortage with K&T most insurance wouldnt cover it as a fire hazard. connections are soldered in the wall, without a box surrounding it. unlike today all coinnections are in boxes. after many years and heavy loads the solder weakens and the connection can overheat and cause a fire, that happened to a buddy of mine fortunately in his open basement cieling he smelled smoke and put it out. in a closed wall the house will go up in smoke. have friends whos homeowners inspected their home and REQUIRED rewiring for just this reason. deduct cost of rewire from home sale price and for futher savings get a home inspector they arent perfect but every trouble they find is money in your pocket. call your insurance agent and ask about K&T and please report back here what they tell you... K&T would be safe IF the connections had been made in BOXES but back then no one thought of it |
#29
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Is Knob-and-Tube *Always* Dangerous?
RBM wrote:
Never heard of such a thing. All over the NE houses have K&T, and they all have insurance. AFAIK, the NEC still recognizes K&T, so I can't imagine why insurance companies would have any problem with it SNIP It's true, nonetheless. This is one of many citations regarding it: http://info.insure.com/home/knobtube.html Jim |
#30
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Is Knob-and-Tube *Always* Dangerous?
"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message ... Never heard of such a thing. All over the NE houses have K&T, and they all have insurance. AFAIK, the NEC still recognizes K&T, so I can't imagine why insurance companies would have any problem with it I've been hearing stories about K&T related cancellations for several years. Bob |
#31
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Is Knob-and-Tube *Always* Dangerous?
In article . com,
" wrote: if your defending K&T please state if your home has that wiring..... I just returned from my daughter and son-in-law's "new" home in Davenport, Iowa. Within the lathe-and-plaster walls on the two, finished floors, it is ALL knob-and-tube wiring. It never occurred (until now) to ask if they had trouble getting insurance. I assume they did NOT as they now have a nice mortgage. All exposed wiring in the basement has been replaced. When the house's service panel was upgraded, the main and second-floor circuits (knob-and-tube) were placed on 20-amp breakers. This was, and probably still is, compliant with NEC. Knob-and-tube wiring may not be very good but, in its original form, it is NOT the hazard some claim. To answer the Subject above, K&T is NOT always dangerous. People with their over-sized fuses, pennies and half-assed taps ARE. -- JR |
#32
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Is Knob-and-Tube *Always* Dangerous? Holler Butt sparks off
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#33
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Is Knob-and-Tube *Always* Dangerous?
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#34
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Is Knob-and-Tube *Always* Dangerous?
I read what Jim sent, which makes sense for any potential fire hazard. Any
wiring in poor condition would be a risk for an insurance company "Bob" wrote in message ... "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message ... Never heard of such a thing. All over the NE houses have K&T, and they all have insurance. AFAIK, the NEC still recognizes K&T, so I can't imagine why insurance companies would have any problem with it I've been hearing stories about K&T related cancellations for several years. Bob |
#35
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Is Knob-and-Tube *Always* Dangerous?
As it happens I've just been updating my list of issues that affect
underwriting in Chicago and Suburbs, based on conversations with local agents. The most common issues a Roofs obviously near end of their useful lives. Porches or stairs with missing or damaged railings. Coverage of large areas with ivy or other similar plants (for example, State Farm). EIFS or Dryvit synthetic stucco over *frame* construction. Frame buildings in close proximity to another structure (especially a problem in Chicago). Any fused (as oposed to circuit breaker) based systems, even if 100A in good conditon. Knob and Tube wiring For some companies, *any* electrical service less than 100A (or example, Hartford). Generally, for pre-1900 construction some companies (for example, Hartford) expect to see major updating of systems such as electrical and HVAC. If an applicant states that there has been recent updating some companies (for example, Allstate) may request to review receipts for the repairs, and expect that these will be from a "licensed contractor". Previous claims or inquiries discovered during a CLUE search, especially for water damage. |
#36
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Is Knob-and-Tube *Always* Dangerous?
Properly installed and maintained K&T is quite safe, though it would
be a good idea to install GFCI outlets (properly labeled "no equipment ground"). The problem comes if it either wasn't a great installation in the first place, or if it's been tampered with or damaged. A good solder joint will last a century or longer, but a bad one can get worse over time, e.g. corrosion from leftover flux, a cold joint developing increasing resistance, etc. Depending on the age of the house, the wiring may have been soldered using irons heated over a fire, which made cold joints more likely since the iron didn't maintain a constant temperature. Many times you'll find amateurish additions to K&T systems, I've seen Romex twisted on and wrapped in duct tape for added lights or outlets. Some homeowners have blown insulation over wiring that was fine in open air, but gets too hot without air circulation. My own house was almost entirely K&T when we bought it, mostly on one breaker (and a Zinsco breaker at that), so the insurance inspection was more detailed than usual, and the inspector asked about what appliances were going to be used in which rooms so he could get a better idea of whether the wiring would be safe as we were using it. No trouble once it was inspected and approved, but not every insurance company will accept K&T. -- is Joshua Putnam http://www.phred.org/~josh/ Braze your own bicycle frames. See http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html |
#37
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Is Knob-and-Tube *Always* Dangerous?
In article .com,
says... As it happens I've just been updating my list of issues that affect underwriting in Chicago and Suburbs, based on conversations with local agents. As an insurance agent, I wish more home inspectors were aware of what conditions can lead to insurance problems. Insurance companies aren't just worried about gross deficiencies, they're worried about anything that significantly increases the risk of loss. A house can be fully code-compliant and structurally sound, but still be very difficult to insure. There's nothing more frustrating than telling a first-time home buyer that their dream house doesn't qualify for standard insurance. Almost inevitably, the first words out of their mouths are, "But it passed inspection!" -- is Joshua Putnam http://www.phred.org/~josh/ Updated Infrared Photography Gallery: http://www.phred.org/~josh/photo/ir.html |
#38
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Is Knob-and-Tube *Always* Dangerous?
Tekkie® wrote: posted for all of us... I don't top post - see either inline or at bottom. insurance has good reasons for their rules........... Right, to keep shareholders happy. -- Tekkie hey insurance wants to minimize payouts and make money, statistics show K&T has more troubles and how many people really WANT a house fire? Its risks injury and death, let alone the mental part of your home burning, losing a place to live, and possesions. We had fire victims here for over 7 months, the whole thing mnessed them up |
#39
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Is Knob-and-Tube *Always* Dangerous?
Phil Munro wrote:
wrote: The only way that the solder will fail on Knob and Tube wiring is if the circuits were fused with improperly sized fuses. If the circuits are protected with properly sized fuses K&T will last for decades. -- Tom Horne OBVIOUSLY you dont know enough about solder, over LONG times it wiskers and detoriates. now K&T is likey 50 years old or more, and quality of metals and solder wasnt great way back then. I fix office machines for a living, at one time did tv and other appliance repair. in that time every now and then would find a bad solder joint, that had workewd forever. frequently in low power circuits where it wasnt and couldnt be overloaded. Insurance doesnt like K&T because it cost them too much in fire losses,,,,,,, otherwise they wouldnt care!! you go right ahead thinking K&T is safe, all those insurancer companies just dont know what they are talking about Below are a couple of links to consider wrt knob & tube wiring. Although my experience is limited, the times I have seen crumbling wire insulation with K&T is where it joined ceiling light fixtures, and that was because of the heat (over heating) due to the fixtures. In some such cases it was possible to (properly) solder a replacement extension onto such a wire and then use a sleeve to cover that, followed by the installation of a junction box to hold the wire safely in place and connect to the fixture. Whenever possible I replace K&T, but when not reasonable to replace, I would be sure the circuit is on a 15A max breaker. Usually receptacles, which is where the greatest loads exist, and where a ground is especially desirable, can be more easily rewired with romex. http://www.waptac.org/sp.asp?id=7190 http://www.maine.gov/pfr/ins/hearing_2003-13680.htm These links are especially interesting and deserve a full reading. My comments are just my own opinions and ideas. --Phil Great links, probably not read by hallerb. I agree that K&T is basically reliable. IMHO insurance denial for K&T (and some other causes in this thread) is in fact redlining. I have seen 2 failures of soldered joints. Both were bad when made. One was K&T, one was BX in a metal box. I have read, don't know if it is true, that K&T are still installed where flooding is a problem because it dries out better. bud-- |
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Is Knob-and-Tube *Always* Dangerous?
Pete C. wrote:
At risk of getting into tinfoilhatland, literally, I'd just point out that the electrical fields from knob and tube are (I would guess) quite a bit higher than modern wiring, even without metal shielding, due to the conductors being further apart. The significant health effects, if any, I leave to other posters to argue about. (I would also guess it's not a significant risk compared to fire or not supplying a ground). Which reminds me; a while ago it was posted here that GFIs don't need a ground. Is that true? Could you eliminate the ungrounded risk by just replacing the outlets with GFIs? No, you need the ground. That's an important part of the whole system. You *can* use GFCIs on circuits without grounds as a retrofit. They will not provide the full protection that they do with the ground connection, but they do provide some protection. The GFCIs come packaged with labels that include a "No equipment ground" warning label for just such applications. It is still far better to just rewire if at all possible. Leakage to equipment connected to a ground wire may trip the GFCI, an advantage. But the GFCI protection is not impaired. (Probably the same as what you said.) And you have the electric field problem exactly backwards. The widely spaced conductors will carry about half the field strength of normal wiring. Those two conductors in normal wiring are both throwing off electric fields. Those two conductors are throwing off opposite fields that will cancel. This is why clamp on amp probes (not the new hall effect type) have to be clamped around just one of the conductors. Restating, 2 conductors in close proximity, like Romex, have the electric and magnetic field substantially cancelled. The strength of the magnetic field is proportional to the size of the loop formed by the wires. z was right. But tin-foil-hats do provide complete protection. bud-- |
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