I dried my house deep well once while watering the garden, and did not
like it. (It is a big garden, and I also have about 40 fruit trees and
a raspberry field)

Sooo, I decided to try to use a well I found in the field. It is 3' in
diameter, 13 feet deep with water at 4.5' from the ground.

Distance from the house to the garden: 175'
Distance from the garden to the Well: 175' further (350' from the
house)

I need to run electricity from the house to the pump, and almost had a
coronary when I saw the price of 12/2 electrical wiring, so I'd like to
try to minimize the lenght of the wiring, both for cost, ease of
maintenance and minimizing power loss.

I bought a new 3/4hp shallow well pump, a "Central Machinery 02955 1"
Cast Iron Shallow Well Pump" and plan to use 1" PVC pipe. I would like
to locate the pump at the garden, meaning it would have to pull between
5' and 12' vertical up the well, plus 175' horizontal. I know pumps are
better for pushing than pulling, but I would save 175' in wiring and
hassles.

Is that a bad ideeyer? Why?
Thanks!

"Jeannot" wrote in message
I would like
to locate the pump at the garden, meaning it would have to pull between
5' and 12' vertical up the well, plus 175' horizontal. I know pumps are
better for pushing than pulling, but I would save 175' in wiring and
hassles.

Is that a bad ideeyer? Why?
Thanks!

Not even good enough to be a bad ideeyer.

On 4 Jul 2006 20:09:31 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm, "Jeannot"
quickly quoth:

I dried my house deep well once while watering the garden, and did not
like it. (It is a big garden, and I also have about 40 fruit trees and
a raspberry field)

Sooo, I decided to try to use a well I found in the field. It is 3' in
diameter, 13 feet deep with water at 4.5' from the ground.

Distance from the house to the garden: 175'
Distance from the garden to the Well: 175' further (350' from the
house)

I need to run electricity from the house to the pump, and almost had a
coronary when I saw the price of 12/2 electrical wiring, so I'd like to
try to minimize the lenght of the wiring, both for cost, ease of
maintenance and minimizing power loss.

I bought a new 3/4hp shallow well pump, a "Central Machinery 02955 1"
Cast Iron Shallow Well Pump" and plan to use 1" PVC pipe. I would like
to locate the pump at the garden, meaning it would have to pull between
5' and 12' vertical up the well, plus 175' horizontal. I know pumps are
better for pushing than pulling, but I would save 175' in wiring and
hassles.

First off, I have one of their 1479 pumps and while it's not bad, it's
not a self-priming pump. I had a helluva time getting it to pump in
the first place, but now I know what "foot valves" are. g


Is that a bad ideeyer? Why?
Thanks!

No, probably not, but you'll still have to trench the wiring and
piping all the way. Gonna rent a Ditch Witch or hire it out?

Another alternative is if you have a gas-powered generator. Hauling it
out there once a week to power the pump for watering might become a
real hassle, though.

One question: Do you use drip irrigation in the garden? If not, why
not? People with wells need to limit their water use and that is not
only extremely good practice, it creates fewer weeds and healthier
plants on 50-80% less water. STRONGLY RECOMMENDED. I drip irrigate
my entire 1/3 acre with a $200 initial investment and about $10/yr
maintenance costs. I hate weeding and my plants/trees/shrubs love me.

--
Friends don't let friends vote Republican or Democrat.
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. VOTE LIBERTARIAN

Jeannot wrote:
I dried my house deep well once while watering the garden, and did not
like it. (It is a big garden, and I also have about 40 fruit trees and
a raspberry field)

Sooo, I decided to try to use a well I found in the field. It is 3' in
diameter, 13 feet deep with water at 4.5' from the ground.

Distance from the house to the garden: 175'
Distance from the garden to the Well: 175' further (350' from the
house)

I need to run electricity from the house to the pump, and almost had a
coronary when I saw the price of 12/2 electrical wiring, so I'd like to
try to minimize the lenght of the wiring, both for cost, ease of
maintenance and minimizing power loss.

I bought a new 3/4hp shallow well pump, a "Central Machinery 02955 1"
Cast Iron Shallow Well Pump" and plan to use 1" PVC pipe. I would like
to locate the pump at the garden, meaning it would have to pull between
5' and 12' vertical up the well, plus 175' horizontal. I know pumps are
better for pushing than pulling, but I would save 175' in wiring and
hassles.

Is that a bad ideeyer? Why?
Thanks!

Ed is correct. Just trying to prime that proposed set up would be a
nightmare. Leave one air bubble in the pipe run and you get no prime.
Also a shallow well pump will pull water a max of about 26 ft verticle
(sea level). Not sure how much of the horizontal distance you are
talking about would equate to verticle but...

Harry K

Jeannot wrote:
I dried my house deep well once while watering the garden, and did not
like it. (It is a big garden, and I also have about 40 fruit trees and
a raspberry field)

Sooo, I decided to try to use a well I found in the field. It is 3' in
diameter, 13 feet deep with water at 4.5' from the ground.

Distance from the house to the garden: 175'
Distance from the garden to the Well: 175' further (350' from the
house)

I need to run electricity from the house to the pump, and almost had a
coronary when I saw the price of 12/2 electrical wiring, so I'd like to
try to minimize the lenght of the wiring, both for cost, ease of
maintenance and minimizing power loss.

I bought a new 3/4hp shallow well pump, a "Central Machinery 02955 1"
Cast Iron Shallow Well Pump" and plan to use 1" PVC pipe. I would like
to locate the pump at the garden, meaning it would have to pull between
5' and 12' vertical up the well, plus 175' horizontal. I know pumps are
better for pushing than pulling, but I would save 175' in wiring and
hassles.

Is that a bad ideeyer? Why?
Thanks!

I forgot to add this.

Do a pump down test on that well before investing money/time in wiring
and piping. It may be too weak to use. You can do one with your pump
plus a generator.

Harry K

I agree with Larry. I think that drip irrigation should be an
intelligent option for your garden. You won't spend too much water, and
your trees & plants will receive the water just where they need it. I
have one too in my garden (Spain), and it is so common here having the
garden irrigated with drippers or micro-irrigation. I should recommend
you visiting this website, you can see lot of different products, and
you can make an idea of what is necessary:

http://www.plasgotirrigation.com/products.htm

I hope be helpful for you.



Larry Jaques ha escrito:

On 4 Jul 2006 20:09:31 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm, "Jeannot"
quickly quoth:

I dried my house deep well once while watering the garden, and did not
like it. (It is a big garden, and I also have about 40 fruit trees and
a raspberry field)

Sooo, I decided to try to use a well I found in the field. It is 3' in
diameter, 13 feet deep with water at 4.5' from the ground.

Distance from the house to the garden: 175'
Distance from the garden to the Well: 175' further (350' from the
house)

I need to run electricity from the house to the pump, and almost had a
coronary when I saw the price of 12/2 electrical wiring, so I'd like to
try to minimize the lenght of the wiring, both for cost, ease of
maintenance and minimizing power loss.

I bought a new 3/4hp shallow well pump, a "Central Machinery 02955 1"
Cast Iron Shallow Well Pump" and plan to use 1" PVC pipe. I would like
to locate the pump at the garden, meaning it would have to pull between
5' and 12' vertical up the well, plus 175' horizontal. I know pumps are
better for pushing than pulling, but I would save 175' in wiring and
hassles.

First off, I have one of their 1479 pumps and while it's not bad, it's
not a self-priming pump. I had a helluva time getting it to pump in
the first place, but now I know what "foot valves" are. g


Is that a bad ideeyer? Why?
Thanks!

No, probably not, but you'll still have to trench the wiring and
piping all the way. Gonna rent a Ditch Witch or hire it out?

Another alternative is if you have a gas-powered generator. Hauling it
out there once a week to power the pump for watering might become a
real hassle, though.

One question: Do you use drip irrigation in the garden? If not, why
not? People with wells need to limit their water use and that is not
only extremely good practice, it creates fewer weeds and healthier
plants on 50-80% less water. STRONGLY RECOMMENDED. I drip irrigate
my entire 1/3 acre with a $200 initial investment and about $10/yr
maintenance costs. I hate weeding and my plants/trees/shrubs love me.

--
Friends don't let friends vote Republican or Democrat.
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. VOTE LIBERTARIAN

I never heard about drip irrigation, but it sure sounds great, I'll
research it. If I go with drip irrigation, the flow is probably less
important so I would be able to locate it in the garden.

My farmer neighbor who lived there for about 341 years knows the well
to be very productive. And I really do not care about drying it, my
house has its own well about 450 feet away.

I will trench the wiring and piping myself by hand, my wife and I
managed a rate of about 3ft/min last time we trenched some PVC.

The pump manual claims it is self priming, well, I hope it is. If not,
is there some kind of device/kit/mecanism I can add?.

Thanks for all your input!

On 7 Jul 2006 09:55:39 -0700, "Jeannot" wrote:

I never heard about drip irrigation, but it sure sounds great, I'll
research it. If I go with drip irrigation, the flow is probably less
important so I would be able to locate it in the garden.

My farmer neighbor who lived there for about 341 years knows the well
to be very productive. And I really do not care about drying it, my
house has its own well about 450 feet away.


Just remember that there's probably only one aquifer.
Exceed the recovery rate of the one well, and you just
end up dammaging the well and your equipment.

Exceed the recovery rate of the aquifer, and you're
in a world of hurt.

That's valuable input.
Would you recommend I install a float switch and a relay to shut the
system off when the water level falls too much?




Goedjn wrote:
On 7 Jul 2006 09:55:39 -0700, "Jeannot" wrote:

I never heard about drip irrigation, but it sure sounds great, I'll
research it. If I go with drip irrigation, the flow is probably less
important so I would be able to locate it in the garden.

My farmer neighbor who lived there for about 341 years knows the well
to be very productive. And I really do not care about drying it, my
house has its own well about 450 feet away.


Just remember that there's probably only one aquifer.
Exceed the recovery rate of the one well, and you just
end up dammaging the well and your equipment.

Exceed the recovery rate of the aquifer, and you're
in a world of hurt.

"Jeannot" wrote in message
ups.com...
I dried my house deep well once while watering the garden, and did not
like it. (It is a big garden, and I also have about 40 fruit trees and
a raspberry field)

Sooo, I decided to try to use a well I found in the field. It is 3' in
diameter, 13 feet deep with water at 4.5' from the ground.

you're going to use an 800 GPM pump to draw from a 13' deep
well? i would sure run some pumping tests first. Sounds
overly optimistic without even considering that you want
to install the pump so far away and suck lots of air.

lee h

OK Lee, I understand that I may be optimistic, but just saying so is
not really helpful.

I understand equations, and that there is a relationship between flow
and suction power, so please entertain me as to how the numbers lead to
the conclusion.

As far as specs, please use the following: 898 GPM, 26' suction depth
and 140' maximum lift.

Thanks.


lee houston wrote:
"Jeannot" wrote in message
ups.com...
I dried my house deep well once while watering the garden, and did not
like it. (It is a big garden, and I also have about 40 fruit trees and
a raspberry field)

Sooo, I decided to try to use a well I found in the field. It is 3' in
diameter, 13 feet deep with water at 4.5' from the ground.

you're going to use an 800 GPM pump to draw from a 13' deep
well? i would sure run some pumping tests first. Sounds
overly optimistic without even considering that you want
to install the pump so far away and suck lots of air.

lee h

Jeannot wrote:
OK Lee, I understand that I may be optimistic, but just saying so is
not really helpful.

I understand equations, and that there is a relationship between flow
and suction power, so please entertain me as to how the numbers lead to
the conclusion.

As far as specs, please use the following: 898 GPM, 26' suction depth
and 140' maximum lift.

Thanks.


lee houston wrote:
"Jeannot" wrote in message
ups.com...
I dried my house deep well once while watering the garden, and did not
like it. (It is a big garden, and I also have about 40 fruit trees and
a raspberry field)

Sooo, I decided to try to use a well I found in the field. It is 3' in
diameter, 13 feet deep with water at 4.5' from the ground.

you're going to use an 800 GPM pump to draw from a 13' deep
well? i would sure run some pumping tests first. Sounds
overly optimistic without even considering that you want
to install the pump so far away and suck lots of air.

lee h

You do have a point but there comes a point when it doesn't matter what
the pump or suction power is. A pump cannot suck more than about 26ft
lift no matter how it is designed. It is physically impossible and
will pull a vacuum if it exceeds that approximate lift. Now does your
long run due to pipe friction add any 'lift' to that approx 6ft? Don't
forget to figure in any elevation difference.

800 gpm is seriously overengineered for irrigation. If it works, you
will have to put it through a pressure tank or it will blow your
irrigation equipment. If put through a tank, the pump will run for
only a few seconds at a time - very bad for pump longevity.

My shade-tree plumbers brain says you will not be able to get the pump
to prime over that distance.

Harry K

"Jeannot" wrote in message
As far as specs, please use the following: 898 GPM, 26' suction depth
and 140' maximum lift.


898gpm = 15 gallons/sec. That's a lot of water to expect from a
3" by 13 foot hole. i'm just suggesting that you fire up the
pump at the wellhead as a test before the effort and cost of
permanent wiring and plumbing. i suspect you'll be sucking
air in very short order. if not, you've got an underground
cavern just a few feet underground :-)

lee

lee houston wrote:
"Jeannot" wrote in message
As far as specs, please use the following: 898 GPM, 26' suction depth
and 140' maximum lift.


898gpm = 15 gallons/sec. That's a lot of water to expect from a
3" by 13 foot hole. i'm just suggesting that you fire up the
pump at the wellhead as a test before the effort and cost of
permanent wiring and plumbing. i suspect you'll be sucking
air in very short order. if not, you've got an underground
cavern just a few feet underground :-)

lee

Ah, but the actual production from the pump depends on it's output. If
it is only feeding one sprinkler it can't put out 898 gpm. The
sprinkler is going to -try- to put out more but it won't be able to.
His system pressure at the point of use will be 64 psi max ignoring any
elevation difference and pipe friction loss. I would expect that pump
to fail under such a design.

Harry K

Thanks for your continous interest.

The well is not 3" in diameter, but 3', 3 feet. I figured 8' of water
in there

The pump has an integrated pressure tank that looks like 4-5 gallons
from the outside (I know usable volume is less).

There will be a minimum of 4 sprinklers connected to the pump with
plans for 4 more.

Look guys, I paid $61 for the pump. Let's say I sell it, or it explodes
during use. Would I be better off with a submersible pump at the bottom
of the well?

Guys, thanks for your continued interest.

898gpm = 15 gallons/sec. That's a lot of water to expect from a
3" by 13 foot hole.

The well is 3', 3 feet in diameter. I figure 8' of usable water * 1.5 *
1.5 * 3.14 * 6 gal/cuft = about 350 gallons. I'm still looking for my
sprinkler specs (I'll just measure it if I can't find the specs), but 4
sprinklers ought to take at least

I would expect that pump
to fail under such a design.

Harry, the tank does have the reserve tank integrated, so I'm guessing
the people who designed the system sized the pump and the tank taking
into account a wide variety of flows.

In any case, I will take the many advices about testing the system
before trenching the whole cheebang.

Say, if I loose my pump or it explodes, would a submersible pump at the
bottom of the well be a better ideeyer? For sure, less maintenance and
no priming hassles.

Thanks to all

"Jeannot" wrote in message
Look guys, I paid $61 for the pump. Let's say I sell it, or it explodes
during use. Would I be better off with a submersible pump at the bottom
of the well?

Yes

Jeannot wrote:
Guys, thanks for your continued interest.

898gpm = 15 gallons/sec. That's a lot of water to expect from a
3" by 13 foot hole.

The well is 3', 3 feet in diameter. I figure 8' of usable water * 1.5 *
1.5 * 3.14 * 6 gal/cuft = about 350 gallons. I'm still looking for my
sprinkler specs (I'll just measure it if I can't find the specs), but 4
sprinklers ought to take at least

I would expect that pump
to fail under such a design.

Harry, the tank does have the reserve tank integrated, so I'm guessing
the people who designed the system sized the pump and the tank taking
into account a wide variety of flows.

In any case, I will take the many advices about testing the system
before trenching the whole cheebang.

Say, if I loose my pump or it explodes, would a submersible pump at the
bottom of the well be a better ideeyer? For sure, less maintenance and
no priming hassles.

Thanks to all

Okay, we are getting somewhere here. I suspect your pump specs are
wrong. PUmp that puts out that much gpm with a 4-5 gallon pressure
tank just does not compute.

You are correct that you aren't going to lose much if the pump does go
tits up so why not use it.

4 sprinkler heads will use about 20 gpm max (5gpm per head - that is a
bit high but good for ball park figuring). A pump putting out near 900
gpm will start and instantly stop as it will have filled the tank that
fast. The hardest part as far as wear goes for a pump is the start
cycle. That's why, if your specs are correct, I say your pump will
fail in short order.

I can't even begin to picture a pump putting out that much volume being
either available for $61 dollars or small enough to install without
heavy lifting equipement as in cranes.

I have rethought one of my replies above. You listed 'max lift...' and
I computed that as being 'max head'. I don't recall seeing 'lift'
being used in pump specs before. 'Head' refers to the hieght the pump
can push a column of water and is directly covertable to pressure
output at .46 psi per foot. If the 'lift' is the same as 'head' for
your pump, the pressure is just right for irrigation use. 60psi while
a bit high makes impulse sprinklers run very nicely.

Of course after all my rambling here, I am still of the opinion that
you aren't going to get the pump primed over that much distance. But
then, why not try and if it works, great, you will have saved a bund of
work and money!

Harry K

Harry K wrote:
Jeannot wrote:
Guys, thanks for your continued interest.

898gpm = 15 gallons/sec. That's a lot of water to expect from a
3" by 13 foot hole.

The well is 3', 3 feet in diameter. I figure 8' of usable water * 1.5 *
1.5 * 3.14 * 6 gal/cuft = about 350 gallons. I'm still looking for my
sprinkler specs (I'll just measure it if I can't find the specs), but 4
sprinklers ought to take at least

I would expect that pump
to fail under such a design.

Harry, the tank does have the reserve tank integrated, so I'm guessing
the people who designed the system sized the pump and the tank taking
into account a wide variety of flows.

In any case, I will take the many advices about testing the system
before trenching the whole cheebang.

Say, if I loose my pump or it explodes, would a submersible pump at the
bottom of the well be a better ideeyer? For sure, less maintenance and
no priming hassles.

Thanks to all

Okay, we are getting somewhere here. I suspect your pump specs are
wrong. PUmp that puts out that much gpm with a 4-5 gallon pressure
tank just does not compute.

You are correct that you aren't going to lose much if the pump does go
tits up so why not use it.

4 sprinkler heads will use about 20 gpm max (5gpm per head - that is a
bit high but good for ball park figuring). A pump putting out near 900
gpm will start and instantly stop as it will have filled the tank that
fast. The hardest part as far as wear goes for a pump is the start
cycle. That's why, if your specs are correct, I say your pump will
fail in short order.

I can't even begin to picture a pump putting out that much volume being
either available for $61 dollars or small enough to install without
heavy lifting equipement as in cranes.

I have rethought one of my replies above. You listed 'max lift...' and
I computed that as being 'max head'. I don't recall seeing 'lift'
being used in pump specs before. 'Head' refers to the hieght the pump
can push a column of water and is directly covertable to pressure
output at .46 psi per foot. If the 'lift' is the same as 'head' for
your pump, the pressure is just right for irrigation use. 60psi while
a bit high makes impulse sprinklers run very nicely.

Of course after all my rambling here, I am still of the opinion that
you aren't going to get the pump primed over that much distance. But
then, why not try and if it works, great, you will have saved a bund of
work and money!

Harry K

AAAARRRRGGGHHH! I just had a revelation. Your pump spec is GPHour, I
have been reading it as per MINUTE. Now it makes sense. My bad. You
can disregard almosst everything I have been saying except for the
doubt about it priming.

Harry K

Jeannot wrote:
That was my mistake Harry. I wrongly wrote GPM, it was 898 GPH. Sorry.
Now I understand about the crane remark. And the short-time failure.

Could someone explain what a "foot valve" is and how it works? I looked
for that info and found nothing so far. Just stores.

It is a 'check valve'. Keeps the water from draining back out of the
pipe once the pump is primed. Goes right on the end of the suction
hose. It is a mandatory item for any well system. Subersibles have it
as part of the pump.

Harry K

Thanks, I think I have everything I need to proceed.

Last question though: I was planning on 1" piping, would you recommend
bigger to go down the well? The pump has a 1" inlet.

Jeannot wrote:
Thanks, I think I have everything I need to proceed.

Last question though: I was planning on 1" piping, would you recommend
bigger to go down the well? The pump has a 1" inlet.

No, if the pump has a 1" inlet, that is what it was designed for on
the suck line. I can't see any benefit to going larger. On the
delivery side you do gain over long distances by going to bigger pipe,
less loss to pipe friction...hmmm, I forgot that you have a long way to
'suck' (thinking...). Afraid I can't answer that, bigger pipe might
cause priming problems but then I still think it won't self prime
anyhow.

Please get back afteryou try it and let us know if it did prime.

Harry K

Thats not a bad idea
make sure the pump is housed priming the line once as long as you dont
have to keep disconnecting will run fine
I have used these pumps for 20 tears as a farmer we run a 1/3hp to the
house it pulls from our spring to the basement and supplys the house

a foot valve is a must it prevents you from losing your prime
you can get a foot valve for $5
Try it it will work
after working with shallow well pumps they pull and push just fine
Jeannot wrote:
I dried my house deep well once while watering the garden, and did not
like it. (It is a big garden, and I also have about 40 fruit trees and
a raspberry field)

Sooo, I decided to try to use a well I found in the field. It is 3' in
diameter, 13 feet deep with water at 4.5' from the ground.

Distance from the house to the garden: 175'
Distance from the garden to the Well: 175' further (350' from the
house)

I need to run electricity from the house to the pump, and almost had a
coronary when I saw the price of 12/2 electrical wiring, so I'd like to
try to minimize the lenght of the wiring, both for cost, ease of
maintenance and minimizing power loss.

I bought a new 3/4hp shallow well pump, a "Central Machinery 02955 1"
Cast Iron Shallow Well Pump" and plan to use 1" PVC pipe. I would like
to locate the pump at the garden, meaning it would have to pull between
5' and 12' vertical up the well, plus 175' horizontal. I know pumps are
better for pushing than pulling, but I would save 175' in wiring and
hassles.

Is that a bad ideeyer? Why?
Thanks!